0:00

We are at this stage where

0:03

Macron's tactics to

0:05

prevent the far right to

0:07

win the next presidential election

0:09

is actually to endorse the

0:11

far right himself. So

0:13

it's a very fucked up moment in

0:15

French politics and a lot of people

0:17

are fairly concerned. Hello

0:36

and welcome to Tech Won't Save Us made

0:38

in partnership with The Nation magazine. I'm your

0:40

host Paris Marks and I have a fascinating

0:42

interview for you today. As you know

0:44

the show often focuses on things that

0:46

are happening in North America in part

0:48

because I'm here but also you know

0:50

because Silicon Valley is obviously in the

0:52

United States. But there are also fascinating

0:55

things happening in other parts of the

0:57

world that I do want to look

0:59

at a bit more. And so in

1:01

this conversation I'm talking to Nastasia Ajaji.

1:03

Nastasia is a journalist looking at the

1:05

tech industry from a political economy lens

1:07

and she's also the author of No

1:09

Crypto, Comon Bitcoin, enfoutez la plannett, which

1:11

is of course a French book. In

1:14

this week's conversation we're talking about what

1:16

has been going on in France and

1:19

in particular the policy that Emmanuel Macron

1:21

put forward in 2017 that he called

1:23

the startup nation. This was his

1:25

goal to not only make

1:28

France a destination for tech investment

1:30

but also to remake the government

1:33

itself so that it acted more

1:35

like a startup. What followed was

1:37

a neoliberal assault on the

1:40

public sector and on the state

1:42

and its capacities. And I think that

1:44

this example serves as a really important

1:47

look at the way that the tech

1:49

industry not only benefits

1:51

from but almost requires these

1:53

neoliberal policies that erode

1:55

what the government can do so that

1:57

the tech industry can move into those

1:59

spaces. and take them over. It

2:01

doesn't mean that those processes then get

2:03

better or more efficient as the tech

2:06

industry promises us, but it requires those

2:08

narratives to get us to buy into

2:10

the program in the first place. You

2:13

can see similar processes in other countries

2:15

that have sought to attract tech investment,

2:17

but I think that the French example

2:19

is really interesting because a lot of

2:22

this happened in such a condensed period

2:24

and such a more recent period, whereas

2:26

when we're talking about the United States,

2:28

we're probably going back to the Clinton

2:31

administration and the policies that were put

2:33

in place in that moment around the

2:35

privatization of the internet and the narratives

2:37

around how the internet was going to

2:40

allow for all of this new opportunity

2:42

and prosperity. Of course, what

2:44

we've seen is for a lot

2:46

of the benefits of this to

2:48

just go to these major companies

2:50

and the wealthy people who control

2:52

them. In France, that has

2:54

been a much more accelerated process, and

2:56

while the tech industry in France, and

2:59

I'm sure wealthy people have certainly benefited

3:01

from these reforms, a lot of regular

3:03

French people have not seen those

3:05

benefits and have been harmed as a result. I

3:08

thought that this was a fantastic conversation to

3:10

have to look at this specific example and

3:12

see what we can learn from it. Just

3:14

a quick heads up that after some great

3:16

events in Christchurch and Wellington, I will also

3:18

be doing an event in Auckland on February

3:20

18th at 6.30pm at the Ellen Melville Centre.

3:22

The event is being put off by Toa

3:24

Toa, which is a local group that fights

3:26

for a just and equitable digital world in

3:28

Aptara, New Zealand. At the event, we'll be

3:30

talking about climate and technology and the false

3:32

tech solutions that are often presented as the

3:34

way to address the climate crisis. Hopefully, you'll

3:36

be able to join us. If there's a

3:38

link with more information by the time the

3:40

show goes live, I'll include it in the

3:42

show notes. If not, you can look for

3:44

me to add it later or I will

3:46

share it on social media. Hopefully, you can

3:48

come and join us in Auckland on February

3:50

18th. So with that said, if you

3:53

enjoyed this conversation, make sure to leave a five-star view

3:55

on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You can also share the

3:57

show on social media or with any friends or learn

4:00

from it. And if you do want to

4:02

support the work that goes into making the

4:04

show every single week, you can join supporters

4:06

like Pam from Port Townsend, Fiona from Frankfurt

4:09

in Germany, Miles in New York City, and

4:11

Alex in Montreal by going to patreon.com/Tech Won't

4:13

Save Us where you can become a supporter

4:15

as well. Thanks so much and enjoy this

4:17

week's conversation. Nastasia, welcome to

4:20

Tech Won't Save Us. Hi, Barrys. Thank

4:22

you for having me. Absolutely. I'm

4:24

very excited to speak with you. And

4:26

the show often deals with issues in

4:28

North America and sometimes just kind of

4:31

wider global issues, I guess. But, you

4:33

know, we haven't looked enough into what

4:35

has been going on in Europe with

4:38

European tech policy. And I thought it

4:40

was a good opportunity to have a

4:42

conversation around what has been going on

4:44

in France, because of course, technology and

4:47

tech policy has been very central to

4:49

the presidency of Emmanuel

4:51

Macron, who was of course, elected

4:53

in 2017. And that is where I wanted

4:57

to start, right? Because in that presidential

4:59

campaign, he had this slogan of

5:02

the startup nation to kind of, you

5:04

know, show how he was different than

5:06

the political class that existed before him,

5:08

but also how he was going to

5:10

take a different approach to governing

5:12

and the type of economy that he was

5:14

going to build. So can you talk to

5:16

us a bit about what this term, the

5:19

startup nation actually meant? Yes.

5:21

So back in

5:24

2017, Emmanuel Macron was like, as

5:26

a political leader, he was already

5:28

a disruptor in the sense that

5:30

he was this young, ambitious newcomer,

5:33

almost very young president.

5:35

So this old

5:38

slogan of startup nation was also meant

5:40

to have this kind of shock effect

5:42

on French politics, due to this new

5:44

coming personality and every one of us

5:47

was a bit in, oh, even internationally,

5:49

when he was elected, because

5:51

of his like youngness, newness,

5:54

etc. So I think that

5:56

initially, the concept of startup

5:58

nation was actually conceptualized

6:02

on Israel, I mean as

6:04

a state who is putting a lot of

6:06

emphasis on tech companies, etc. And

6:09

Emmanuel Macron kind of seized

6:11

the concept to make it

6:13

a central axis for his

6:15

politics. And so

6:17

in 2017, he was very

6:20

vocal and very enthusiastic about

6:22

making the French state a

6:25

very leading force in the

6:27

sense of tech and commercial

6:29

trade within the tech industry. So

6:32

I think it was also a

6:34

tradition that could trace back to

6:37

what we call here in France

6:39

Le Colbertisme, this very commercial theory

6:42

that was made by the head of

6:44

finance of Louis Qatar, with the 14th.

6:48

And the aim was to make France

6:50

like a great empire, almost like a

6:52

great nation through commercial trade. And

6:54

Emmanuel Macron with his startup

6:57

nation framework clearly wanted to use

6:59

technologies as a

7:01

way of making France within Europe one

7:03

of the leading nations. So

7:05

that was the aim, I think, the global aim of

7:08

this whole political rhetoric. That's

7:11

fascinating, especially to hear that connection with

7:13

the Israeli policy and kind of

7:16

learning from that, right? Because of course, as we've

7:18

talked about on the show, you know, and as

7:20

people will likely understand

7:22

Israel has a significant tech industry, in

7:25

particular in defense tech, but other pieces of

7:27

that as well, which has been very helpful to

7:29

it, to kind of gain legitimacy and kind of

7:32

get that foreign investment and all those sorts of

7:34

things. You know, when

7:36

Emmanuel Macron was championing this policy

7:38

of the startup nation, what kind

7:41

of policies did that

7:43

kind of justify in terms

7:45

of his political program once he was elected

7:49

president? Because, as I

7:51

understand, you know, the startup nation was

7:53

not just about attracting tech investment, but

7:55

also about making the state itself operate

7:57

more like a startup. How

8:00

did that influence the way he governed? Absolutely.

8:02

This is the tension and even the

8:04

dialectic that is at the center of

8:07

this startup nation concept. So

8:09

both you want to make

8:11

France a very fertile ground

8:13

for foreign investment and at

8:15

the same time run the

8:17

state at a startup. So

8:19

basically it's using the whole

8:21

vocabulary of agility, budget reduction,

8:23

you have to be agile,

8:25

you have to scale to

8:27

hyperscale even. So this whole

8:29

culture of entrepreneurship was

8:32

taken from the private

8:34

sector and tried to be applied

8:37

to the public sector pretty much. So

8:39

what type of policies? From

8:42

my perspective I would say it's

8:44

an attack on the welfare system because

8:47

if you want to rationalize, usually

8:49

you cut the budget in the

8:52

name of efficiency, you cut the

8:54

budget in the name of competitiveness,

8:57

you use this whole rhetoric of

8:59

efficiency etc. to pretty much dismantle

9:01

what makes the very basics of

9:04

the welfare state. So

9:06

this is the economic rhetoric and

9:09

also what type of policy is

9:11

pretty much running the public services

9:13

as a private company. So

9:16

a lot of emphasis on

9:18

process, on rationalization,

9:22

on making the expenses as

9:24

little as possible is the rhetoric

9:26

of the budget austerity etc. etc. So

9:30

this has a direct impact on

9:33

actually the way the public

9:35

system is actually evolving because

9:38

a lot of sectors are increasingly

9:40

privatized to be fair or on

9:42

the way of being privatized. It's

9:45

the case of for example the

9:47

public healthcare system is going extremely

9:49

bad at the moment. The

9:51

public hospital system in France is almost

9:54

crumbling at the moment

9:56

with head of services

9:58

actually committing suicide. the

10:00

people working within the hospital system or

10:03

have extremely low wages, everything

10:05

is congested. It

10:08

was almost an exploit that the pandemic

10:10

was handled by the public service in

10:12

hospital because of the state

10:14

of it that is extremely concerning.

10:17

But I could also talk about

10:19

public universities that are

10:21

increasingly run as private companies

10:23

and the people working at

10:26

university, be it the scholars,

10:28

but also the administration are

10:31

extremely concerned because they are

10:33

asked to become almost company

10:35

CEOs. So this whole

10:37

logic is being applied to all the public

10:40

services and it has direct

10:42

impact on the public agents, but

10:44

also on the end of

10:47

the spectrum on the people having

10:49

access to it. Also, I

10:51

would say that the major aspect of it

10:54

has been a path towards digitalization.

10:57

It's become a commonplace now,

10:59

everything is being digitalized. But

11:02

this process, first of all,

11:04

has been delegated to big

11:07

consulting firms that have made

11:09

a lot of money with

11:12

the French public money to

11:14

digitalize the public services. But

11:16

this digitalization has led to

11:19

an increase in the number of people

11:21

not having access to the

11:23

public service being the housing

11:26

insurance, being the employment

11:28

insurance and so forth. So there is

11:30

a lot of discrepancy in

11:32

the way you can have access to the

11:34

service also because of

11:37

this increasingly digitalized infrastructure.

11:41

So it has many aspects to

11:43

it. One part is economical, the

11:45

other is ideological, and there

11:47

is also a very practical side of it, I

11:49

would say. It's fascinating to hear that

11:51

because it almost sounds to me in a

11:54

way when you talk about the effects that

11:56

these policies have had on the French welfare

11:58

state and French kind of public

12:00

services, it makes me think

12:03

about how things have degraded in, say,

12:05

North America and other kind

12:08

of English-speaking countries, but I'm sure parts of

12:10

Europe as well, over the past number of

12:12

decades. And we always kind of had this

12:14

story or were told that the

12:16

French were better at defending the

12:18

public system and were able to

12:21

kind of keep these public services

12:23

that they rely on in a

12:25

better state than in many other

12:27

countries that had undergone this neoliberalization.

12:29

And it almost feels like, you

12:32

know, maybe belatedly Emmanuel Macron,

12:34

under the guise of

12:36

the startup nation, brought this

12:38

neoliberal assault finally to the

12:40

French state that private

12:42

industry, that capitalists wanted to see for

12:44

a long time. Absolutely. I

12:47

mean, the work of like

12:49

this monthling, I would say,

12:51

the workforce state has been

12:53

started much before Emmanuel Macron.

12:55

It's already begun during the

12:58

1980s. But it's true

13:00

that he's been leading a massive

13:02

assault against what

13:05

many would consider as killers

13:07

of the workforce state, and

13:10

often in the name of, as

13:12

we discussed, becoming more

13:15

agile, becoming like a startup

13:17

nation, etc. So it's true that the

13:20

rhetoric under his presidency has

13:22

been followed by a lot

13:25

of reforms that are clearly

13:27

hyper-liberal. People here in France, they

13:30

talk about the extreme center, not

13:32

the extreme right or the extreme

13:34

left, but the extreme center. And

13:36

now it's becoming more and more

13:38

clear that he's a

13:40

neoliberal president, but he is also

13:42

more and more endorsing ideas from

13:45

the conservative right or even the

13:47

far right within his

13:49

policy because he doesn't have a

13:51

clear majority at the parliament.

13:54

He knows that his presidency is kind

13:56

of threatened by many social movements. So

13:58

it's kind of a big issue. of

14:00

radicalizing in a way that

14:02

is very concerning for many people, especially in

14:05

the left, almost endorsing

14:07

and putting into practice some

14:10

of the worst ideas taken from the

14:12

far right. And I have in mind,

14:14

especially the bill that was voted last

14:17

December in 2023, about immigration that is

14:21

probably one of the most xenophobic,

14:24

racist, and

14:26

outrageous bill of law that

14:28

was passed, and the presidency,

14:30

there was huge pushback and

14:32

social movements and protests. But

14:34

still, carrying this

14:37

politics that is, it's a

14:39

very newly burned term of economics,

14:41

but more and more conservative when

14:43

it comes to the society and

14:46

the social dimensions of it. And

14:48

as far as French safeguarding

14:51

what has been fought for

14:53

and acquired during the past

14:55

decades, it's true that

14:57

we are a country of social

14:59

movements of strikes. Lagre,

15:02

the tutorial, it's true. But

15:04

I mean, there's also during

15:06

this presidency, a complete neglect

15:08

of what the streets have

15:10

been calling for a complete

15:12

neglect of the social movements,

15:14

and even a fierce repression

15:16

of it. It's insane

15:19

how much we can really

15:22

say that under Emmanuel Macron,

15:24

the repression of social movements

15:26

has never been so high.

15:28

It was already the case back

15:31

in 2018, when the yellow vest

15:33

movement started, the repression of it

15:35

was fierce with people like literally

15:37

losing their eyes, losing their hearts,

15:39

because the police was almost deploying

15:42

a military hot and all to

15:44

police the protest. But it was

15:46

also true during the pension

15:48

reform protest, because you have to know

15:51

that this reform was

15:54

meant to be applied before COVID.

15:56

But then COVID happened, so they

15:58

postponed it. Now they

16:00

decided to vote it last year,

16:02

so there were huge social protests

16:04

against this pension reform. You

16:07

probably remember those scenes that

16:09

were a bit viral and you could

16:11

have seen it in foreign medias of

16:13

Paris bursting into flames almost

16:16

last year during the pension reform protests.

16:19

But even though there were huge social

16:21

movements, Emmanuel Macron didn't care and he

16:24

wanted to leave the reform till the

16:26

end and pass it. So,

16:29

yeah, French people tried

16:31

to safeguard what was

16:33

acquired, especially after World War

16:35

II, the national healthcare system,

16:38

our insurance policy that is very protective

16:40

of people losing their job or quitting

16:42

their job. They can have state money

16:44

for a while, but

16:46

everything that these welfare landmarks

16:48

are being increasingly attacked. Yeah,

16:52

it feels like as you're

16:54

talking about the neoliberal policies

16:56

of Emmanuel Macron and the

16:59

right-wing shift of his politics that has always

17:01

kind of been there but has become more

17:03

explicit recently, based on what

17:05

you describe, it also feels like

17:08

it's a very authoritarian politics where

17:10

if he can't get bills through

17:12

the French parliament, then he'll just

17:14

use constitutional ways to push them

17:16

through anyway. Or as

17:19

you say, there's this massive expansion of

17:21

the policing system. Before

17:23

we started recording, we were talking about the

17:25

video surveillance and the expansion of the surveillance

17:27

state in France as well. I wonder if

17:29

you can talk a bit about that and

17:32

how that connects to this

17:34

broader kind of repression that Emmanuel

17:36

Macron has been engaged in. Yeah, the

17:39

term authoritarian is absolutely accurate when

17:41

it comes to what's happening right

17:43

now in France, be it,

17:45

as I said, repression of social movements.

17:48

It's very also clear, I want you to just talk

17:51

about it for a minute, but even

17:53

the climate activists

17:55

are being increasingly

17:57

criminalized and repressed.

18:00

It's almost like, I mean, I'm

18:02

always so stunned that you know,

18:05

people are like protesting to different

18:08

climate and their climate activists and

18:10

they're being criminalized as terrorists almost.

18:13

So it's fairly insane. France

18:15

has been the first country

18:17

in Europe to legalize the

18:19

algorithmic surveillance technology and

18:21

especially due to the coming Olympic Games

18:23

that will happen next summer in 2024.

18:26

So this big international

18:29

event is actually setting

18:31

a precedent in terms

18:33

of how these surveillance

18:35

technology will be deployed in

18:37

France. So it is

18:40

something very concerning. So we're talking

18:42

about algorithm being deployed

18:44

within the cameras that are

18:46

everywhere in the public space

18:49

and they can like kind of

18:51

police or they can

18:53

control, they can actually control your behaviors

18:55

in the streets. Like, for example, if

18:58

you're staying for too long on the

19:00

floor or if you're jumping onto someone

19:02

because you're very happy to see the

19:04

person, it can lead to a signal

19:06

to the police and you can lead

19:09

to an arrest. So

19:11

this technology will now be legal in

19:13

France. It's been

19:15

voted last spring. One

19:18

aspect of it that's also very

19:20

concerning that is not yet legal

19:23

is also the official recognition algorithm.

19:25

So this is not legal yet.

19:28

This will be only authorized

19:30

for special police forces that

19:33

want, for instance, to investigate

19:35

terrorist case, etc. And

19:38

it could be used after to

19:40

kind of match it with

19:42

certain databases in order to recognize

19:44

some people. This won't be legal

19:47

at a broader scale for

19:49

the Olympic Games. But

19:51

there are many associations that are

19:53

very concerned with the technology because

19:56

the step from algorithmic video surveillance

19:59

to social media. recognition is not

20:01

a very big one. So there's

20:04

already a lot of concern around

20:06

the fact that you can

20:08

go further quite easily. And

20:10

also it's been revealed by various

20:13

media that these technologies of agor-ec

20:16

mix-on-variants and facial

20:18

recognition have already been in use

20:20

by the police, especially completely

20:22

illegally out of the legal framework

20:25

for almost eight years now. So

20:28

I think the concerns are very legitimate

20:31

in that field. And

20:33

if people want to know a

20:35

bit more about what's happening in

20:37

France with regards to the algorithmic

20:40

video surveillance, there is an

20:42

association called La Quadrature Jeunesse and

20:44

they're very vocal against it and

20:46

they also provide a lot of

20:48

tools to better understand the subject

20:51

and to better like fight against it

20:53

as well. That's great to know and

20:55

I can include a link to that in the show notes so people

20:57

can check it out. It's very

20:59

concerning to hear what you're describing there

21:01

with the rollout of these technologies in

21:04

France. And as you say, if there's

21:06

algorithmic video surveillance now, the step to

21:08

facial recognition is a very small one

21:10

and you can certainly see that coming

21:13

as well, especially if there's any kind

21:15

of public security event that they

21:17

can use to kind of push it through, right?

21:20

I did want to pivot a little bit

21:22

from this discussion to talking about as part

21:24

of the startup nation policy,

21:26

there's not just the neoliberal policies

21:29

with how services are delivered through

21:31

the state but also that desire

21:33

to attract tech investment.

21:36

I wonder on that side of things, have

21:39

these policies to turn France into

21:41

kind of the mecca of tech

21:43

investment in Europe actually worked? I'm

21:46

not sure I don't have the clear

21:48

figures in mind. What I know is

21:51

that every year there is this summit

21:53

organized that's called Choose France and

21:55

that summit has been gathering every

21:58

single tech leader in the world for the

22:00

past couple of years. So

22:02

they're trying to make firms, the

22:04

make-out of investment. However, I feel

22:06

like we still have some sort

22:09

of tax policy that is not

22:11

too attractive for many of the

22:13

big tech companies. So

22:15

they might prefer to go to other

22:17

places a bit more flexible when it

22:19

comes to tax, be it,

22:22

I don't know, like Northern Ireland

22:24

or Cyprus or Malta. So what's

22:26

happening is that a lot of

22:28

tech companies operating in France, they

22:30

don't have the headquarters in France.

22:32

They have it like in Cyprus

22:35

or in other jurisdictions where the

22:37

tax climate is a bit cooler,

22:39

I would say. So I'm not

22:41

sure it's been a major success

22:44

in terms of attracting investment. However,

22:47

a lot of effort is being made

22:49

by Emmanuel Macron. As I was

22:52

saying, this two-prance summit is

22:54

held every year in Versailles. So

22:57

it's like a lot of money being spent

22:59

having this like almost, you know,

23:02

royal meeting for the tech leaders.

23:05

So everyone is coming. Like I

23:07

think Elon Musk came, all of

23:09

the tech leaders came. Even the

23:11

infamous former CEO of Binance, CZ,

23:14

there is this picture that was

23:17

commented and that went viral in

23:19

France of Emmanuel Macron taking a

23:21

selfie with CZ. And at that

23:23

time, Binance, his platform was being

23:26

investigated by the Department of Justice

23:28

in the US and

23:30

was already under a lot of heat for

23:33

doing all sorts of

23:35

fraud and non-compliance to

23:37

different financial laws, etc.,

23:39

etc. And also being

23:41

accused of financing terrorism.

23:44

So at that very moment, Binance

23:46

was being investigated. Emmanuel Macron was

23:48

taking a selfie with his boss.

23:50

So that was very

23:52

concerning. So he's putting a lot

23:54

of effort into this. And even like the recent World

23:56

Economic Forum in Davos, in Sweden, he's putting a lot

23:59

of effort into this. Switzerland, he

24:01

brought with him a couple of the French

24:03

unicorns and the French startups in

24:06

order to also adjust the track

24:08

investment in those companies.

24:11

I feel like when you talk about

24:14

the selfie that he took with CZ

24:16

of Binance, that really does show the

24:18

degree to which he's willing to look

24:21

past potential violations or things that these

24:23

companies are doing in order to just

24:26

attract an investment to France, whatever kind

24:28

of investment that actually is. Can

24:31

you tell us a bit more about this

24:33

effort to attract the crypto industry, something that

24:35

I think many people kind of see as

24:37

a scam and not a kind of technology

24:39

that you actually want to embrace, the

24:42

effort that Emmanuel Macron took in order

24:44

to attract that industry to France? Yes,

24:47

so many people call it a scam and

24:49

my staff is suited to this. For

24:52

the most part. So, yeah, a

24:54

lot of effort was made into attracting

24:57

those companies, Binance being

24:59

one of them, but not

25:01

only Binance, Coinbase, Kraken, all

25:03

of the major exchanges were

25:05

coming in France. I

25:07

think FTX at the time of the

25:10

scandal was operating through

25:12

Cyprus and didn't have any

25:14

sort of headquarters in France.

25:17

It was operating in France still. Pretty

25:21

much the crypto industry being

25:23

part of this broader nonsensical

25:26

web3 industry for the

25:29

government, it was a good thing to

25:32

have it in France. And even the

25:34

minister of economy, Bruno Le Mer, I

25:36

think it was not long

25:38

ago, like one year and a half ago, one

25:40

and a half ago, said that he

25:42

wanted France to be a base camp for

25:45

the crypto economy. And everyone was a

25:47

bit like, what is he saying? In

25:49

other countries such as the US, for example,

25:51

the biggest market for this crypto

25:54

criticism was pretty

25:56

vocal. And, and no, Bruno

25:58

Le Mer and Emmanuel Macron really. We

26:00

wanted crypto companies to settle in France.

26:03

And at that time, well, I

26:06

would say that the global

26:08

framing of this industry here in

26:10

France was rather positive. Like,

26:13

you know, you could hear some

26:15

people say, but tech is neutral.

26:17

It's a chance for financial emancipation.

26:21

You know, all the crypto boosterism was

26:23

going full force here in France. So

26:26

it was very disturbing for me

26:28

to like see how much of

26:30

compliance there was towards these companies.

26:33

And one other very concerning example

26:35

was that when Binance decided to

26:37

open a branch here

26:39

in France, they actually hired

26:42

people from the authority that is

26:44

in charge of regulating the financial

26:47

market, the equivalent of

26:49

the SEC in the US, which

26:51

is called the AMF in France.

26:54

So Binance hired two

26:56

prominent figures and also other prominent

26:59

figures in other financial institutions. So

27:02

that was really concerning. And up

27:04

until, I would say, 2022,

27:06

when the big FTX scandal

27:08

blew up, there was

27:10

a rather positive attitude towards

27:13

those crypto and Web3

27:15

companies. So now crypto, the

27:18

hype is gone and there is

27:20

not much left, I would say.

27:22

But still the Web3 narrative is

27:24

still quite prevalent here in France.

27:27

And big Web3 companies are

27:29

still going away with being

27:32

like quite fraudulent in some way. But

27:34

it's still fine for most of them.

27:37

It's almost surprising to hear that that

27:39

industry still has that degree of support

27:41

or even interest in France, as it

27:43

has waned in other places. But of

27:45

course, at the same time, we've seen

27:48

the Bitcoin prices increasing lately. And I

27:50

think that has resulted in a bit

27:52

more interest in cryptocurrencies than there's been

27:55

for a little while. One

27:57

of the things that I noticed when I

27:59

was reading... about this policy and Emmanuel Macron's

28:02

approach to the tech industry is that there

28:04

was the positioning of the startup nation in

28:06

2017 as he was running. But then he

28:08

also said that because

28:13

of the startup nation policies, France was

28:15

also going to become a unicorn nation,

28:18

referring to the status that tech companies can

28:21

reach. Can you talk to us about the

28:23

plan there and how he wanted to step

28:25

up to a unicorn nation and whether you

28:27

have any indication as to whether that has

28:30

happened? To be fair, I have

28:32

no idea what a unicorn nation might

28:34

be, especially in a country where the

28:37

public system is crumbling.

28:40

Emmanuel Macron

28:43

is very well-known for

28:46

having this very strong

28:48

narrative. Usually,

28:50

he's even more vocal

28:53

and enthusiastic and enfatic, we

28:55

say in French, because

28:58

he has no actual power over what's

29:00

going on. So he's making those big

29:02

declarations, big discourse, who the hell knows

29:05

what a unicorn nation is, to be

29:07

fair? I have no idea. I

29:09

cannot reply to that question. And

29:12

now he's talking about the current

29:14

narrative. It is extremely reactionary. What

29:16

we have right now is talking

29:19

about réarment demograthique, so

29:21

that would be fostering

29:23

birth. Well, it's pretty

29:25

much telling people to have babies

29:28

because we need more people with

29:30

information, which is so reactionary. From

29:32

unicorn nation to make babies

29:35

because we need more citizens.

29:38

He's saying that with a

29:40

very martial, very military tone.

29:43

This is why I said

29:46

very reactionary. So it's

29:48

very famous for making those bold claims.

29:51

Nobody knows what he's talking about, really, but

29:54

it's very bold. It

29:56

stands out to me as well that that kind

29:58

of rhetoric is becoming increasingly popular on

30:01

the right and in particular among

30:03

the Silicon Valley elite that have

30:06

radicalized and become vocal in their

30:08

right-wing politics over the past little

30:10

while through pro-natalist policies and things

30:13

like that. Elon Musk, of course,

30:15

talks about population a lot. So

30:17

it's almost not surprising to hear

30:19

that Emmanuel Macron is

30:22

adopting similar language. I guess to

30:24

pivot a little bit, again, when

30:27

we talk about the French

30:30

state or what French workers have

30:32

been doing, another, I guess,

30:34

assumption that a lot of people have from

30:37

outside of France is that

30:39

France has a very strong

30:41

labor movement and strong worker

30:43

protections because the unions and

30:45

because workers defend those

30:47

rights very strongly when they come

30:49

under attack by government and employers

30:51

and other actors. In France,

30:54

we've also seen the rise of

30:56

precarious food delivery and ride-hailing platforms.

30:58

Can you talk to us a

31:00

bit about how Emmanuel Macron has defended

31:02

these companies and this business model as

31:05

Uber and these other companies have expanded into

31:07

France? Yes, absolutely. So I

31:09

think it was one year ago, this candle

31:13

blew out that was called the Ubergate.

31:15

And as you mentioned, Emmanuel Macron was

31:17

pointed out for his role in advocating

31:19

for Uber taking over

31:22

France pretty much. So facilitating,

31:25

even though he was not almost legal

31:27

at certain points, but facilitating

31:29

companies such as Uber to

31:32

operate within France. And

31:34

what was really concerning besides

31:37

this kind of institutional lobbying

31:39

directly from the president, which is

31:42

in itself very concerning when it

31:44

comes to a company such as

31:46

Uber or any other company to

31:48

be fair, was

31:50

that that company

31:52

settled and precisely

31:55

targeted the suburbs, the

31:58

precarious suburbs in France. coming

32:01

in front with the discourse of saying, you

32:03

know, you're going to

32:05

be an entrepreneur, you're going to

32:07

work for yourself, we're going to

32:10

empower you through this platform, etc,

32:12

etc. And there was also an

32:15

active campaigning targeting the suburbs in

32:17

order to hire as many contractors

32:19

as possible, because they are still

32:22

contractors, they work for the platform,

32:24

not with a proper contract, but

32:27

as self employed. And the

32:29

condition in the beginning were pretty

32:31

attractive, because there was uber strategy

32:34

to facilitate in order to gain

32:36

a lot of users. So condition

32:39

were attractive, and then the

32:41

condition they tightened. And now

32:43

we can see people and it's very

32:45

common with the platform economy, that you

32:47

have taxi drivers that work around the

32:50

clock for almost nothing. And it's crazy

32:52

the amount of time they spend in

32:54

their car. And at the end

32:56

of the day, they earn what's like 150

32:59

euros. So the conditions

33:01

of work, of labor, have

33:04

crucially declined, but

33:06

they're hooked to the platform because they have

33:08

to work. So it's

33:10

a global attack on labor

33:12

condition and labor protection. And

33:15

these people as they are individualized

33:19

as workers, they cannot really

33:21

unionize. However, we've seen

33:23

unions, for example, in bike

33:25

delivery people, they've been unionizing

33:28

more in front. So now

33:30

there's been like some sort

33:32

of power in order to

33:34

negotiate for themselves. But

33:36

when it comes to taxi driver, they're

33:38

still very individualized. So it's

33:41

very concerning now to look

33:43

at the condition of their work. And Emmanuel

33:46

Macron was key. He was a

33:49

pivotal moment when he authorized Uber.

33:51

I mean, it's a bit simplistic to say

33:53

it's his fault, but he clearly played an

33:56

actual role in just like giving

33:58

these people back condition of work. work in

34:01

the name of technology and in

34:03

the name of empowerment. Do

34:05

you know, because you talked about

34:08

the scandal when the Uber papers came

34:10

out about a year or so ago,

34:12

that showed that as the economy minister

34:14

under Francois Hollande's socialist

34:16

government from 2014 to 2016,

34:19

that he personally helped Uber

34:21

lobby in order to get entry to the

34:23

French market. And I know at the time

34:26

there were talks about an investigation into this

34:28

or potentially kind of holding of accountable, did

34:30

anything ever come of that or did that

34:32

just kind of die in parliament?

34:35

Like many, many other candles,

34:39

it died, the McKinsey one also, we don't

34:41

have many news from it. You

34:43

know, I was talking about earlier the

34:45

fact that under Emmanuel Macron,

34:48

there was an unprecedented

34:50

amount of public money

34:53

going to McKinsey. McKinsey is

34:55

not paying any, almost no

34:57

tax in France. So

34:59

this influence of these private

35:01

auditing firms has never been

35:03

as big as now. But

35:06

there's not much scrutiny. There is one

35:09

by Sinead and Cour de Cour, et

35:11

cetera, but there

35:13

is not much political outcome

35:15

of this scrutiny. And

35:18

same with Uber, it just fell through. We don't

35:20

have much of it now. So it's quite concerning

35:22

to be fair. Yeah, it

35:24

absolutely is. And I

35:27

wonder, you talked about how

35:29

these food delivery workers and

35:31

ride-hailing workers are considered

35:33

contractors in France, like in many other

35:35

countries. How different is that from

35:37

the way that the French

35:40

labor model usually works? Because obviously

35:42

as someone from outside of France,

35:44

we have this idea of strong

35:46

unions, a high degree of unionization

35:48

within the French workforce. How different

35:50

is this from how labor is

35:52

usually composed in France? And does

35:54

it risk further eroding those

35:57

labor protections if this way of work

35:59

is done? is allowed to be

36:01

entrenched. Yes. So,

36:03

our labor system is, well,

36:06

used to be considered as

36:09

very protective towards workers, but this

36:11

has been on the decline since

36:13

many years now, and not only

36:15

under Emmanuel Macron, as a

36:17

result of this neoliberal turn

36:20

during the 1980s that

36:22

has been loosening the protection

36:25

surrounding workers. But we

36:28

still have quite a protective

36:30

system, meaning that each and

36:32

every employee with a proper

36:34

contract can obtain, if he

36:36

decides to leave the company and add

36:38

a certain circumstances, states

36:40

money for quite a long time,

36:43

which is called the La Champs-Chumage,

36:45

unemployment insurance. So, that's very

36:47

interesting. And it's so funny

36:49

because to make a loop

36:51

with the idea of the startup nation,

36:53

that's the very system that has

36:56

been allowing a lot of the young

36:58

startups to be funded in the beginning,

37:00

meaning that the founders,

37:03

this is because they can get the

37:05

state money that they're actually launching

37:07

the startup. Pointe-en-ploix, which is now

37:09

called France-Trail, is probably

37:12

the structure that is financing the

37:14

more startups in the country, to

37:16

be fair, like a lot of

37:18

young startups are being funded by

37:20

France-Trail, the state insurance system. So,

37:22

we have this. We

37:24

used to have quite strong unions. That

37:26

is not true

37:28

anymore. There has been unionizing

37:31

has been on the

37:33

decline. The influence of unions has been

37:35

declining for a while now. They've

37:37

gained a bit momentum during the

37:39

pension reform social movements. So,

37:42

all the unions, all the major ones actually

37:46

grouped and they were together

37:48

against it. So, there was quite a moment

37:50

for unions in France. But

37:53

apart from it, I feel like the influence of unions

37:55

has been on the decline for a while now. And

37:58

we have an incredible. freezing

38:01

lobbying by the state, but also

38:03

by companies, for the alternative to

38:06

this, what is called a rigid

38:08

labor system. So you can be

38:10

self-employed. You can be

38:12

a micro entrepreneur. And this

38:15

path towards from a quiet

38:17

rigid contract, but with strong

38:19

rights, more and more

38:21

people are now self-employed and acting

38:23

as, you know, the gig economy as

38:25

contractors. So that's a

38:27

clear trend that's happening right now. Yeah,

38:31

like in many other countries, unfortunately.

38:34

And I know at the moment there

38:36

is a push to change the rules

38:38

around gig work and

38:40

platform work through the platform work

38:42

directive at the European Union level.

38:45

How has France been engaging in that? And

38:47

I know it's been trying to do something

38:49

domestically in order to get in the way

38:52

of any kind of more

38:54

aggressive regulations being put forward on the EU level.

38:56

So do you have any insight into what's going

38:58

on in that process? What

39:00

I know is that at the level

39:02

of cities, you know,

39:04

all this instant delivery food companies

39:07

such as Flink, Getter,

39:09

all those companies that were big in

39:11

the UK, especially, they tried

39:13

to settle in France, but it didn't last

39:16

for too long because C.T. Meyers

39:18

decided to ban them because of

39:20

labor conditions, but also because they

39:22

were using too much space,

39:24

but pretty much at a street

39:26

level, what used to be shops.

39:29

The competition with other shops was not

39:31

fair. So they decided to ban those

39:33

companies and it was quite effective because

39:35

in a few months they were all

39:37

gone. So now we don't

39:40

have any more Flink kind of quick

39:42

commerce kind of companies. But

39:44

when it comes to the EU

39:47

and bigger companies such as Uber,

39:49

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's

39:52

quite flexible for them still.

39:54

I mean, Uber is still operating

39:56

freely in France. Same

39:59

for other companies like Uber. That. So.

40:01

Yeah, besides does quick commerce started

40:03

to deliver you food in like

40:05

less than ten minutes that were

40:08

banned. Also. Because the

40:10

condition of the workers were

40:12

extremely bad, And. Then there

40:14

was a social movements to

40:17

actually am dinner this so

40:19

that was effective. But besides

40:21

that I don't see a

40:23

clear trend to like curb

40:25

those bigger platform and say

40:27

that the you have a

40:29

strong that body of regulation

40:31

that most of the other

40:33

countries and you know at

40:35

the level of the U

40:37

S know dat protect his

40:39

either like taking the Ai

40:41

act for instance. Some.

40:44

People say it's a great

40:46

step forward for unit and

40:48

customer protection, etc, but some

40:51

other says not ambitious enough.

40:53

So. But still

40:56

at the level of the you.

40:58

We also had this class effective

41:00

policy Go Gdp are that has

41:02

been a step forward in terms

41:04

of data protection for customers and

41:06

regular people that you know. There's.

41:09

Always attention and people say sir

41:11

and lack of ambition. Others say

41:13

it's better than and flags. Of

41:15

yeah, that's completely fair. We've been

41:17

talking on through this conversation about

41:19

how a manual my phone has

41:21

been trying to attract a lot

41:24

of tech investment into France, in

41:26

particular from large multinational tech companies,

41:28

but also getting things going domestically

41:30

as well. In terms of getting

41:32

investments for new companies and things

41:34

like that's one of the things

41:37

that seems to be central to

41:39

France. A strategy is not just

41:41

getting that foreign investment that also

41:43

building it's national champions. and having

41:45

some degree of digital sovereignty i wonder

41:47

if these two policies are somehow in

41:50

conflict with one another trying to get

41:52

that foreign investment but also trying to

41:54

build digital sovereignty so that you're not

41:56

so reliant on all of these foreign

41:59

companies How does that actually play out

42:01

in the French context? Well,

42:03

there's clearly a tension between the two

42:05

in the sense that I feel like

42:08

the political leaders be at

42:10

the stage of the EU, but

42:12

also in France, are increasingly concerned

42:15

about our dependency towards

42:18

bigger tech companies such as, for instance,

42:20

cloud, the companies that provide the cloud

42:22

service, even the defense software,

42:24

et cetera, et cetera. So there is

42:26

a clear call in Europe

42:29

and especially in France for

42:31

more digital sovereignty. This

42:33

is why there is a

42:36

clear effort into nurturing national

42:38

champions, especially in the field

42:40

of defense. And this is

42:42

also why I feel like France

42:45

has been the first country to

42:47

legalize the algorithmic video surveillance because

42:49

there is an economic reason for

42:51

it. And the economic reason

42:54

is that we have national champions and

42:56

they have to become bigger. But

42:58

the bigness somehow is okay when

43:00

it's French or European, but when

43:03

it's other big tech companies, they

43:05

tend to be more regulated. So

43:08

yes, there is a kind of contradiction in

43:10

this. I won't be too

43:12

critical towards the effort to not

43:14

depend too much on big techs

43:17

and especially, be

43:19

it American or Chinese, but I kind of

43:22

understand the need to not be too dependent

43:24

on those companies because it's

43:26

becoming, as everybody knows, also

43:29

a geopolitical issue for

43:31

every country. And

43:33

when you have your more critic

43:35

industries relying

43:37

on Amazon Web Services and cloud services,

43:41

it might be an issue. So

43:43

this is the reason why there is

43:45

this call for more sovereignty and especially

43:47

in Europe, yes. Yeah,

43:49

I completely agree with you. I think it

43:51

makes a lot of sense to want to

43:53

not be dependent on these major international companies,

43:56

right? And for a long time, it was

43:58

really beneficial to these companies that that

44:00

these narratives were not as

44:02

prevalent. The idea that everyone would just

44:04

use Amazon or Google or whatever was

44:07

just taken as fact, taken as reality.

44:09

And now there is questioning of that

44:11

and I think that's healthy. I think

44:13

it's really interesting that you say that

44:15

the EU seems more focused on holding

44:17

kind of foreign tech companies to account

44:19

than domestic ones, because that's one of

44:21

the things I've always argued as part

44:23

of the reason that we get stronger

44:25

tech regulation in Europe is because the

44:28

Googles and the Amazons are not based

44:30

there, so they don't really lose very

44:32

much from taking on those companies. But

44:34

it is interesting that you don't often hear about

44:37

them going after kind of domestic European companies or

44:39

at least not as often. But I guess part

44:41

of the reason for that might be that they

44:43

don't tend to be as large. Yeah, of

44:45

course. But it's also funny when it

44:47

comes to France that France almost invented

44:49

the internet but never succeeded. It's

44:52

a French engineer that was very

44:54

close to invent what has become

44:56

the internet, but for

44:58

some reason, he didn't make it through.

45:00

Before the internet, we had this system

45:03

called Minitel that was the major technological

45:05

improvement and achievement, but

45:07

again, we didn't make it till the

45:09

end. And internet and mostly American-based

45:12

internet became the

45:15

standard for what is

45:17

today's internet. But France,

45:19

somewhere near the 1970s, was

45:23

quite forward in terms of technological

45:25

innovation. Maybe they're referring to this

45:27

lineage and period of time now

45:29

with these sovereignty

45:32

issues in mind. As I

45:34

was saying in the very beginning, I

45:37

feel like Emmanuel Macron positions

45:39

himself in this tradition of

45:41

digital collaborism, meaning

45:44

that France has to be

45:46

a strong global state and

45:48

we will reach this objective

45:50

by nurturing digital champions, national

45:52

champions, being aggressive in terms

45:54

of trade, in terms of

45:56

influence, et cetera. So this

45:58

all-started nation is... also a clear

46:01

reference to this kind of political

46:03

tradition. I think it's really

46:06

interesting that you bring in that history

46:08

because one of the things I feel

46:10

like I remember about the Minitel project

46:12

was that there was also a degree

46:14

of interest in having a national champion

46:16

in that moment as well, right? To

46:18

not be so reliant on IBM, which

46:21

was like the major American tech company

46:23

at the time, and instead to have

46:25

kind of a French computer company and

46:27

a French alternative to that. And of

46:29

course, it was quite successful for quite

46:31

a while. Yes, absolutely. Minitel was very successful.

46:33

It was used by administration, the press. I'm

46:39

fairly sure my parents had one, to be

46:41

fair, because I'm born in 1990, so that

46:44

would make sense in terms of

46:46

the period in time. And also

46:48

Minitel was very famous as

46:50

the use case for the sex part of

46:52

it. It was called Minitel

46:54

Rose. I think everybody knows in France

46:56

what it is. But yeah,

46:59

the service to have access to

47:01

what today would be tinder, I guess,

47:03

and sexting, stuff like that. And

47:06

Minitel became a prominent use case

47:08

for this. So it was

47:10

fairly successful at the time. And

47:13

I couldn't tell exactly the reason

47:15

why the project declined and was

47:17

dependent. Was it a matter

47:20

of cost or influence? Because

47:22

it was designed initially to be both

47:24

a device, but also

47:27

a service and a network. It was

47:29

quite complete, but it was also very

47:31

closed on itself. So I guess this

47:34

is the reason why it was a very

47:36

French thing. So maybe it's

47:38

the reason why it didn't became

47:41

this international standard, such as

47:43

the internet, I guess. But I'm

47:45

not 100% sure. That would be interesting to

47:47

do a little bit of research on why

47:49

Minitel didn't became the internet. Absolutely.

47:52

You know, you certainly didn't see many Minitels

47:54

outside of France, and that was certainly a

47:56

hindrance, right, of it achieving kind of the

47:59

global nature that... the internet did later. I

48:01

wonder, you know, we were talking about the

48:04

desire for national champions in France. Can you

48:06

talk to us a bit about the industries

48:08

where France is trying to build up these

48:11

national champions and what it's trying to achieve with

48:13

that? Well, I would

48:15

say they cross sector, but lately,

48:18

there is a big push on

48:21

anything defense, cybersecurity,

48:25

and intelligence. There's actually a company

48:27

called Mi Sraala that

48:29

is set to become OpenAI's

48:31

competitor. They've raised quite a lot of

48:33

money in the field of

48:35

artificial intelligence. But I would put

48:38

defense and cybersecurity first. AI

48:40

for sure. Web 3 for the past

48:42

three years was the starting

48:45

of Emmanuel Macron with company crypto

48:47

companies, but also NFT gaming companies

48:49

such as Sohra, a company that

48:51

we don't really know how they

48:54

generate revenue to date. We don't

48:56

really know if the business model

48:59

actually exists and how they

49:01

actually survive. But,

49:03

well, they are part of the unicorns

49:05

in France. I would say

49:08

also healthcare. That's a pretty strong

49:10

company called Dr. Lib. There was

49:12

quite a stir during the pandemic

49:14

because Dr. Lib

49:16

was appointed the one and

49:18

only platform, digital platform, to

49:20

have access to vaccination. So

49:23

that's a private unicorn. And

49:25

there was no public system

49:27

for vaccination. It was through

49:29

Dr. Lib, a private company,

49:32

that the whole vaccination campaign

49:34

was led in France. That's

49:37

also a very good startup nation example

49:40

to be brought forward. So yeah,

49:42

I would talk about those companies.

49:45

I think that makes a lot of sense.

49:47

And it's concerning to hear how there's been

49:49

that move into private healthcare with

49:52

these tech companies as well, moving things

49:54

into these private apps and whatnot that

49:56

would usually be something that would be

49:58

kind of more in the public. system.

50:00

We've of course seen that in

50:02

Canada as well, where one of

50:04

the biggest kind of pushers of

50:06

private health care through technology is

50:08

actually a former state owned telecommunications

50:10

company here, which is unfortunate,

50:13

but I think that is often how things

50:15

seem to play out. This has been a

50:17

really fascinating conversation, Nastasia, to learn about

50:19

what has been going on in France.

50:21

And I wonder, just to close off

50:23

our conversation, how would you

50:26

sum up the wider impact

50:28

of the startup nation policy

50:30

and Emmanuel Macron's approach that

50:33

has been inspired by these tech

50:35

objectives, as you said, and is there anything

50:37

that I didn't think to ask you that

50:39

you think is important for listeners to know?

50:42

From my perspective, which is

50:44

obviously situated, to me

50:47

it's an unprecedented attack on

50:49

the welfare state that is being led using

50:52

tech and neoliberal rhetoric

50:54

as a justification. So

50:57

to me, this is a net negative

50:59

almost. And I feel like

51:01

a lot of people are very concerned,

51:03

especially in the light of the recent

51:06

authoritarian right conservative turn that

51:09

is being more and more

51:11

assumed, and it's extremely

51:13

concerning. And it feels like everybody

51:15

knows that the option

51:18

will be next election between the

51:20

far-right Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel

51:22

Macron again, but it is

51:24

more likely that Le Pen is going to

51:26

maybe win the election. So we are at

51:29

this stage where Macron's

51:32

tactics to prevent

51:34

far-right, to win the next

51:37

presidential election, is actually to

51:39

endorse the far-right himself. So

51:42

it's a very fucked up moment in

51:44

French politics, and a lot of

51:46

people are fairly concerned. And

51:48

we've seen since the pandemics,

51:51

social inequalities explode, public services

51:53

being more and more attacked

51:56

and dismantled and less functional

51:58

and less efficient. even

52:01

though we still have quite strong

52:03

biases if you compare to other

52:05

countries. But the trend towards

52:07

a more neoliberal, minimal

52:09

state and minimal

52:11

welfare in order to

52:14

give more power to private companies

52:16

and especially the tech companies is

52:18

very concerning. So I think we need more and

52:20

more people to talk about it, being

52:23

openly very critical of it. So

52:26

I hope this is what listeners

52:28

will understand. And also

52:30

I think more and more people

52:32

are disillusioned about Emmanuel

52:34

Macron. He was positioning himself

52:37

as I'm not from the right,

52:39

I'm not from the left. We

52:41

clearly see now his extremely right

52:43

wing and right leaning,

52:45

almost far right leaning politics. So

52:48

a lot of these illusion within the

52:50

population, but also I think a lot

52:52

of resource for those who want to

52:55

fight against it. Absolutely.

52:57

Now, I appreciate you laying all that

52:59

out. And I think that the French

53:01

example really shows these connections between the

53:03

tech industry and these neoliberal policies very

53:05

clearly in a way that might not

53:07

be as evident in other countries because

53:09

these things happened earlier than they did

53:11

in France, because there has really been

53:14

this onslaught during Macron's presidency. Nastasia, it's

53:16

really been fantastic to speak with you.

53:18

Thank you so much for taking the

53:20

time. Thank you so much. And bravo

53:22

for your work as well. I'm a very

53:24

regular reader and listener of your podcast. So

53:27

thank you for having me. Thank

53:29

you so much. Nastasia

53:32

Ajaji is a journalist and the

53:34

author of No Crypto, Come on

53:36

Bitcoin, a enfouté la plannet. Tech

53:39

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53:43

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53:46

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