0:00

It's not only Israeli authorities that are peddling

0:02

disinformation. The president

0:04

of the US, Joe Biden, has also

0:06

went on spreading disinformation

0:10

when he, for instance, said that

0:12

he saw 40 beheaded babies,

0:15

which the White House then clarified

0:17

that they have not seen any confirmed reports

0:19

of beheaded babies, but the CNN

0:21

reported that. And then they said,

0:24

oops, sorry, we could not verify

0:26

that information. We were misled,

0:28

but the damage was already done. The dehumanization

0:31

was already done. The justification of

0:33

Israel's bombardment and carpet

0:36

bombing campaign in Gaza is

0:38

done.

0:55

Hello and welcome to Tech Won't Save Us. I'm your host, Paris

0:57

Martz. And this week, my guest is Marwa Fatafda.

1:00

Marwa is a Palestinian digital rights

1:02

advocate and researcher. She is a policy

1:05

and advocacy director at Access Now, where she

1:07

leads their work on the Middle East and North Africa

1:09

region.

1:10

Now, as I'm sure you're aware, on October 7th,

1:12

Hamas fighters breached the fence

1:15

that Israel built around Gaza and

1:17

got into Israeli communities and killed,

1:20

I believe it's 1,200 civilians

1:22

is the number that we have now. And as

1:24

a result of that, Israel launched

1:27

kind of an unprecedented bombing

1:29

campaign and bombardment on Gaza.

1:31

We've also seen bombings happen in

1:34

Lebanon and Syria, and of course,

1:36

an increase in settler violence in the

1:38

West Bank and of course, Palestinian

1:40

families being forced out of their

1:42

communities by those settlers. You know,

1:45

the death toll in Gaza now is over 11,000

1:47

people, a very high percentage

1:50

of those being children and

1:53

women who are dying because of this. And

1:55

I felt it essential that we

1:57

had to do an episode discussing.

1:59

what is going on in Gaza

2:02

and in Palestine right now because

2:04

it's not just in violation of the

2:07

Geneva Conventions It's not just a series

2:09

of war crimes It's not just a genocide

2:12

that's happening and it's in

2:14

violation of the most kind of basic moral

2:16

decency I don't think it's possible

2:19

to sit back and see what is happening

2:22

In Gaza right now

2:24

and not kind of speak up and

2:26

say something about it And you know the very

2:28

least that we can do is to

2:31

at least speak to somebody who knows

2:33

a lot more about this And I

2:35

do and so that is why I wanted

2:37

to have Marwa on the show to speak

2:40

to us about You know what is happening

2:42

in Gaza to speak to us

2:44

about the technological Angle

2:47

of this to see the impact of

2:49

internet shutdowns and and what

2:51

is happening on social media And you

2:53

know the larger kind of technological apparatus

2:56

of oppression that Israel has

2:58

developed and subjected The Palestinian

3:01

people too and of course I spoke

3:03

about this earlier this year with Anthony

3:05

Lowenstein That's episode 176 published

3:08

on July 13th If

3:11

you want to go back and listen to it on a slightly

3:13

less serious note the four-part Elon

3:16

Musk unmasked series might be

3:18

over But this weekend

3:20

on Saturday November 18th I'll be doing

3:22

a live stream where I'll be taking your questions

3:25

about Elon Musk the series itself

3:27

and Anything else you know tech

3:30

related that you really want to ask me about so

3:32

that will be November 18th at 1 p.m Pacific 4

3:35

p.m. Eastern or 9 p.m. GMT

3:38

and of course to join you need to

3:40

be a patreon supporter So if you do

3:42

want to participate in that live stream

3:44

and ask some questions go to patreon.com slash

3:47

tech won't save us Sign up and

3:49

you can join us for it. And of course for

3:51

listeners in Australia in New Zealand I

3:54

tried to accommodate you as well. So

3:56

that time is morning your time

3:58

so you can also join us if you

4:00

choose to do so. I hope to see you there

4:03

and I look forward to your questions.

4:05

So anyway, that is all from me. I think

4:07

it's better to kind of leave this to Marwa

4:10

and, you know, her incredible insights. And

4:13

I would just say, I know that it can feel kind

4:15

of powerless seeing all of these videos

4:17

of atrocities online and

4:19

the reporting about them, but I think Marwa

4:22

kind of ends this interview on a bit

4:24

of, you know, a hopeful note or at least an empowering

4:27

note to say that, you know, you don't need to

4:29

sit by and just accept that, that there are

4:31

things that you can do, you know, even as

4:33

an individual to help the Palestinian

4:36

cause. And I would encourage you to do

4:38

that. So it feels so weird to say

4:40

this usual spiel in an episode like this,

4:42

but if you do enjoy it, you

4:44

can leave a five-star review on the podcast

4:47

platform of your choice. You can also share

4:49

the interview on social media or with any friends

4:51

or colleagues who you think would learn from it. And if

4:53

you do want to support the work that goes into making the show

4:56

every single week, so we can continue to have

4:58

these critical conversations, these important

5:00

conversations with people like Marwa, you

5:03

can join supporters like John from Staten

5:05

Island, Rupert from London, Mike

5:07

in Oakland, Trolls in Denmark, Jarno

5:10

from Helsinki, and Anton from Germany by

5:12

going to patreon.com slash techwontsaveus,

5:15

where you can become a supporter as well. Thanks so much

5:17

and enjoy this week's conversation.

5:19

Marwa, welcome to Tech Won't Save Us. Thank

5:21

you for having me. Absolutely.

5:24

I've been really looking forward to speaking

5:26

with you. Unfortunately, the context

5:28

that we're having this conversation in is

5:31

just terrible, right? After seeing what has been

5:33

happening, starting with

5:36

the attack by Hamas on October 7th.

5:38

And then of course, because of that, seeing

5:40

the escalation in the

5:42

existing kind of occupation

5:45

and system of apartheid that Israel

5:47

has been engaging in, in Gaza

5:49

and the West Bank. But in particular, we

5:51

now have a death toll over 11,000 people

5:53

in Gaza from the

5:55

bombing campaigns and from everything that Israel

5:58

has been doing since the

5:59

that attack on October 7th. And so

6:02

I wonder, I guess, just to start our

6:04

conversation and to ground our conversation, what

6:07

you have been thinking about or how you have

6:09

been kind of processing everything

6:11

that you're seeing over the past month or

6:13

so since this particular kind

6:16

of phase, I guess, of this

6:18

occupation has been going on.

6:21

There is no easy

6:23

answer to this question, but I could say that

6:26

I think for me, it's

6:28

been probably

6:31

one of the most difficult periods of my life. We

6:33

have witnessed wars

6:36

before, particularly in Gaza

6:38

as a Palestinian. We

6:41

somehow are accustomed

6:43

or used to waking up every morning

6:46

to news of death,

6:48

people being killed, detained, injured,

6:51

maimed, but this round,

6:54

it's been

6:56

extremely painful because the

6:59

level of destruction and

7:01

mass murder is unprecedented.

7:04

And it's really hard for me to

7:07

witness this genocide unfolding

7:09

before our eyes online and

7:13

not being able to do much about

7:15

it, not being able to pop it. And

7:19

what adds soul to injury is the

7:21

complicity of the US and Europe

7:24

and Western leaders and powers in

7:27

enabling and abetting this genocide

7:29

and gaslighting us. Today, I live

7:31

in Germany, and today I saw the

7:34

German Chancellor, Olaf Schulz, saying

7:36

that, refuting according to

7:39

him, absurd accusations

7:41

that Israel is violating international

7:43

law and asserting that Israel is

7:46

a democracy and it's abiding by international

7:48

law. While we are seeing

7:51

with our own eyes

7:53

the

7:54

atrocities and the

7:56

war crimes and the crimes against humanity

7:58

that Israel is committing. day in and day out

8:01

with full impunity. But

8:04

of course, it's not

8:06

a time to despair or be reduced

8:09

to tears, although there's been plenty of tears

8:12

the past few days or weeks. I

8:14

work as a digital rights

8:17

advocate, if you may, and the

8:19

conflict or the war has spiraled

8:22

online also in an unprecedented

8:24

level from the

8:27

level of disinformation and hate speech

8:29

and dehumanizing content

8:32

circulating on social media to the

8:34

censorship of Palestinian voices to

8:36

the issue of internet shutdowns in Gaza.

8:39

I've been busy working on these issues

8:42

and I think the situation highlights

8:44

more than ever why the

8:46

internet is important and essential

8:49

and especially in times of war, it's

8:51

a lifesaver. And therefore, we

8:54

should try all of our best to keep it as open

8:56

and as accessible as possible to

8:58

the people on the ground in Gaza.

9:01

So it's been a few difficult

9:04

weeks.

9:05

Yeah, I can only imagine, you know, it's

9:07

been hard enough for someone with no connection,

9:09

you know, no kind of direct connection to

9:12

Palestine to be watching

9:14

these things to be seeing the complicity

9:16

of our leaders. You know, I'm in Canada and our government

9:18

has been just as shameful as those

9:21

in the United States and most of Europe. And

9:23

just to see these images on our screens

9:25

of children being killed and whole

9:28

neighborhoods being wiped out

9:30

and just seeing how these statements by

9:33

people who are supposed to be like our leaders just do

9:35

not line up with the reality

9:38

of what we're seeing. And to pick up on your

9:40

point about the internet, you know, one thing

9:43

I've kind of been thinking a lot about is

9:45

I remembered how during

9:47

the Vietnam War, a lot of people

9:50

in the United States and in the West were

9:52

really against that war

9:55

because they saw what was happening

9:57

on television and, you know,

10:00

I'm sure the media was not perfect in that moment,

10:02

but they gave people a picture

10:04

of what was happening that they didn't

10:07

often get about war before

10:09

that, the images that they didn't necessarily

10:12

see. I feel like one

10:14

thing that has at least cut

10:16

through that noise or ensured

10:18

that we're not just relying on what our

10:20

governments are telling us in this moment is

10:23

how

10:24

social media and the internet,

10:26

as flawed as those things can be at times,

10:30

have allowed people on

10:32

the ground in Gaza to still

10:34

share what is happening,

10:37

what their experiences have

10:40

been during this absolutely

10:42

atrocious period so

10:44

that we can't deny what is going

10:46

on and that anyone who is trying

10:49

to justify it can be presented with the

10:51

facts of what's happening. Unfortunately,

10:53

those facts are just terrible, but at

10:56

least they're known and at least people can see

10:58

what's happening. I don't know. Hopefully,

11:01

it eventually leads to some justice

11:04

even if the bombing is still continuing

11:06

at this moment. Yeah, exactly.

11:08

I mean,

11:11

maybe you can go on a little

11:15

journey down the history

11:17

line. For us Palestinians,

11:20

we have been

11:23

dispossessed from our land. Palestinian

11:26

villages have been massacred

11:28

and destroyed and depopulated back

11:31

in 1948 and over 750,000

11:33

Palestinians were expelled and then the state of Israel

11:36

was created on top of

11:41

depopulated, dispossessed and

11:44

ethnically cleansed Palestinian towns

11:46

and villages. Back then, the

11:48

narrative was, the Zionist narrative

11:50

was that this is a land without

11:54

a people, for people without a land

11:56

even though Palestine has

11:59

been a pretty... prosperous part

12:01

of humanity's civilizations

12:04

for centuries and people

12:06

from all walks of life, industries,

12:09

businesses, cinemas, theaters,

12:12

farms, you name it, everything that

12:14

existed. And so the

12:16

reason why I'm mentioning this is because for

12:19

us over the past 75 years, it

12:22

has always been a war

12:26

over narrative where we

12:29

want to dispel Israel's

12:32

myth around Palestine, how

12:34

it came into existence, or

12:36

how the Israeli state came into existence,

12:39

and at what expense, and that is of course

12:41

at the expense of Palestinians being

12:44

expelled and dispossessed. And

12:47

so fast forward now, I mean on

12:49

the one hand, we see how

12:52

over 1.5 million Palestinians in

12:56

Gaza strip having to

12:58

walk for miles and miles

13:00

without food, without water, some

13:03

babies dying in exhaustion,

13:06

trying to look for a place with

13:08

no guarantee even for their safety

13:10

from Israeli bombardment and Israeli

13:13

snipers. And so for

13:15

us, we're witnessing the so

13:18

called second Nakba, the catastrophe, what

13:20

happened to us in 1948, but now

13:22

in multi-color

13:24

photos on social media. And

13:27

despite the flow

13:30

of images and the flow of information

13:32

of the atrocities being committed in the Gaza

13:34

Strip

13:35

right now,

13:36

we still see Western leaders and

13:38

Western media peddling

13:41

disinformation from the Israeli state

13:43

about the current events. It's

13:46

really revolting and also

13:48

fascinating at the same time to see

13:51

the discrepancy between people's

13:54

testimonies and footage and

13:56

how mainstream or Western

13:58

traditional media frame those

14:01

events and how they spin

14:03

them. And so from that

14:05

perspective, I think, you know, the internet

14:07

has been a

14:08

very crucial tool

14:11

for people to document

14:13

atrocities, to document war crimes

14:15

and crimes against humanity and share it

14:17

with the rest of the world. As painful as

14:20

they look, they are important to

14:22

share because otherwise we know for a fact

14:24

that it's not the CNN

14:27

or NBC or NPR or the

14:29

BBC or any of the so self

14:32

alleged objective media organizations

14:35

are going to objectively indeed

14:38

report on those events and co-lissbaite a

14:40

spade. I mean, in traditional

14:43

media, you know, Palestinians are

14:45

not killed. They just simply die and

14:47

our buildings are not bombed. They just simply

14:50

collapse. And the perpetrator

14:52

of those crimes is absent. The

14:55

use of the passive voice in the English language

14:58

has never been weaponized and

15:00

instrumentalized to obfuscate

15:02

facts and absolve Israel

15:05

from its responsibilities. So

15:07

that's why I think, you know, also

15:10

why the internet has been weaponized in this

15:12

form and why these radio authorities

15:14

have been specifically

15:17

targeting and bombing internet

15:20

service providers, telecommunications companies,

15:22

infrastructure and also

15:25

implementing full internet shutdowns a

15:27

few times already over the past few weeks. I

15:30

mean, we know as

15:31

an organization that has been working

15:34

on internet shutdowns for many, many years,

15:36

we know now that whenever

15:39

an authority or a government shuts down

15:41

the internet, it's really up to no good. The

15:43

sole purpose is to cover

15:46

the trails of their crimes and to also

15:48

stop the flow of information and

15:50

stop people from accessing

15:52

information sharing, mobilizing on the streets

15:55

and dissent effectively against

15:58

the government's actions.

15:59

Yeah, and I think that is an essential

16:02

point, right? And there are so many things

16:04

in that answer that I want to pick up on and that will

16:06

kind of inform the conversation that I

16:09

want to continue having with you. I do

16:13

just want to kind of go back to what you were

16:15

saying about the second NAPPA, right, that we're seeing

16:17

in Gaza right now, and just how

16:19

it adds such insult to injury,

16:22

that so many of the people in Gaza

16:24

are already people who were pushed out

16:26

of their communities in the first NAPPA who

16:28

are refugees from what happened the

16:30

first time, and now they're being forced to

16:32

move again, whether that's just the South

16:35

Gaza or whether they eventually get pushed

16:37

somewhere else by the Israeli

16:39

authorities and by the Israeli army.

16:42

But I do want to pick up on what you were saying there about the

16:44

internet, right? I think people will have

16:47

seen the stories around October 27th when there

16:50

was kind of the large scale internet blackout

16:52

preceding the Israeli

16:55

ground invasion of Gaza

16:57

after kind of weeks of bombardment

17:00

and bombing that continues to this day.

17:02

But there have been

17:04

kind of blackouts beyond

17:06

that, internet shutdowns beyond that.

17:09

And of course, that is not just to say that

17:11

only the internet has been shut down Gaza itself

17:13

has been not only kind of caged

17:16

for many years, but has been under

17:18

a kind of complete blockade

17:20

since October 7th, not allowing

17:22

medicines and food and things like that in

17:25

there other than a few trucks going through the

17:27

Rafa border with Egypt more recently.

17:29

So can you talk to us about those

17:31

internet shutdowns and what the effect

17:33

of that is, you know, when these

17:36

communication lines are shut off?

17:37

Yeah, indeed. So on October 8th, the

17:40

Israeli minister of defense announced

17:42

that there will be complete siege on Gaza. So

17:45

there will be no food, no water, no medicine,

17:47

no fuel. And

17:50

then the bombardment campaign started. And

17:53

since October 9th, basically,

17:55

we have documented that the number

17:57

of internet service providers in

17:59

Gaza, been going through an internet

18:01

shutdown due to the

18:04

bombardment of their infrastructure.

18:07

Over the month of October, we

18:09

have seen that internet traffic has

18:12

decreased by 80% across the

18:14

Gaza Strip. Out

18:16

of the 19 internet

18:19

service providers operating or providing

18:21

services in the Gaza Strip, 17

18:24

have been or actually 15

18:26

have been going through a complete

18:29

shutdown also over the month of October.

18:32

This is because, I mean, mainly

18:34

the reasons behind these internet shutdowns are

18:37

three. One, as I said, is the heavy

18:40

bombardment that led to the partial or full

18:42

destruction of the

18:43

infrastructure,

18:44

including the destruction of fiber,

18:47

optic fibers, cell towers and

18:50

whatnot. But then the second reason,

18:52

of course, the lack of fuel means

18:54

that the companies can no longer continue

18:57

to run their services. Yesterday,

18:59

for example, the two major Palestinian

19:02

telecommunications companies, Joelle and

19:04

Paltel, they're part of the same group or

19:06

Paltel group, but they've sent the

19:09

communication sounding the alarm that there

19:11

will be a complete shutdown of their services

19:14

and potentially a complete shutdown and information

19:17

blackout in the Gaza Strip. By

19:19

this Thursday, today is Tuesday

19:22

14th. So on Thursday,

19:24

and I'm terrible with math, so it will take

19:27

me a few seconds to calculate, it

19:29

will be on Thursday the 15th,

19:32

16th if fuel is not allowed

19:34

in. And to date, Israel has been refusing

19:37

to let

19:38

any fuel in.

19:40

So it's really a question of math

19:42

more than anything that if you don't have fuel,

19:44

you don't have energy and therefore some of those

19:46

companies have been trying to rely on

19:50

solar panels. Paltel, for instance,

19:53

said that the main supply

19:55

from the electricity company in Gaza

19:58

has been affected since the very beginning. and

20:00

then they had to rely on solar panel. And

20:03

if that failed, then they have to

20:05

rely on some emergency

20:08

energy batteries that could only last them for 24

20:10

hours. And

20:12

that would be activated kind of automatically

20:15

in the absence of if the whole

20:17

energy sources are depleted, which is, I

20:20

believe, the case now. And

20:22

then there is, of course, you

20:24

mentioned the complete shutdown on the October 27th. And

20:28

that was, as a result

20:30

of the Israeli authorities simply killing the switch.

20:33

So, you

20:34

know, the Israeli Ministry

20:36

of Communications had said

20:38

publicly in a kind of a report

20:41

on its activities during this war that

20:43

it is looking into cutting internet

20:46

and telecommunications access in the Gaza

20:49

Strip as part of the

20:51

government's war plan. So we

20:53

think that it probably was pre-mediated

20:58

and it wasn't the first shutdown, although it's been the

21:00

longest so far. The

21:03

internet was shut down for around 34, 36 hours. I

21:07

know for a fact that it has resulted

21:09

in a, it's sent shockwaves across

21:12

the Gaza Strip, but also among

21:15

Palestinians living abroad. You know, many

21:17

people have lost

21:19

completely contact with their families

21:21

and loved ones inside of Gaza, which

21:23

to begin with was very difficult. You

21:25

know, people would send, I

21:27

don't know, WhatsApp message or try to reach out to their

21:30

families for days and weeks before they're

21:32

able to get a reply, you know,

21:34

seeing the

21:35

two tics on WhatsApp

21:38

were

21:38

something that Palestinians outside

21:41

of Gaza, like it was a sign of

21:43

life that their families are still alive despite

21:45

of the bombardment and the siege. And

21:48

on the 27th, you know, there were

21:51

extremely difficult hours. And,

21:54

you know, many humanitarian organizations

21:57

and international bodies also

21:59

said,

21:59

they've lost

22:01

contact with their people on the ground, with their

22:03

staff on the ground, including health workers.

22:06

The Palestinian Red Crosslands also

22:09

said that they've lost access to their

22:11

emergency room, which means that people

22:13

who were bombarded, injured, were

22:15

not able to evacuate

22:18

or have ambulances to transport

22:20

the injured to hospitals. Many

22:22

Palestinians have to resort to using

22:26

carriages dragged by donkeys

22:29

to transport the injured to hospitals.

22:31

People who also did not know which

22:34

areas were bombarded because they lost

22:36

access to information, access to

22:38

the news. So in that situation,

22:41

imagine yourself in the Gaza

22:43

Strip and you hear bombs, some

22:46

near, some far. You can't

22:48

talk to your family. You

22:49

can't have access

22:52

to the news. You have no clue whether

22:54

you would be next. And also you have no clue

22:56

where you can escape to. It's an absolute

22:59

nightmare that I do not wish

23:01

even upon my enemies.

23:02

So

23:03

there was a strong backlash from

23:06

international organizations and even

23:08

the White House kind of shamelessly

23:11

claimed that there were the ones that

23:14

pressured the Israelis to bring it back. I

23:16

wouldn't want to give the White House any credit, but

23:19

there was a strong backlash from many

23:21

organizations, including civil society. And

23:24

I think Israel has been, since then, has

23:26

been implementing kind of partial shutdowns.

23:29

On October 1st, there

23:31

was a shutdown for at least nine

23:33

or eight hours overnight. There was

23:35

also a shutdown in the northern

23:38

part of Gaza where there is currently a military

23:40

operation. There was also a shutdown

23:43

on November 5th. And again,

23:45

if fuel is not allowed in by

23:48

this Thursday, the possibility

23:50

of having another information blackout

23:53

is very real.

23:55

What you described there, you know, about not

23:57

being able to communicate with your

23:59

family. But you know, anyone outside

24:01

of outside of Gaza being

24:03

able to communicate with their family is just

24:06

so hard to imagine. And then, you know, thinking

24:08

about being in Gaza, and

24:12

hearing and seeing these bombs dropping around

24:14

you and not being able to access the information

24:16

on what is actually going on or being able

24:19

to even contact like medical

24:21

authorities or an ambulance just seems absolutely

24:24

harrowing. Right. I want

24:26

to briefly ask you about something I was reading a report

24:28

by Hamlet, you know, an

24:30

Arab organization around social media.

24:33

And they were saying that it's not even just the

24:35

kind of occasional cutting

24:37

of connectivity by Israeli

24:39

authorities. But there's also kind

24:42

of a longstanding ban on

24:45

allowing more advanced technologies to help

24:47

telecommunications technologies into Gaza.

24:49

Is there anything that you can tell us about that?

24:52

Yeah,

24:52

that's a very important context for

24:54

the readers to know that Gaza

24:57

has been under a military blockade for

24:59

what, 16

25:00

years now.

25:00

And what that

25:02

essentially means that anything that goes

25:05

into the Gaza Strip must be approved by

25:07

an arm that reports

25:09

to it's a military administration

25:12

that reports to the Israeli Ministry of Defense.

25:15

And they have to approve also

25:18

materials for infrastructure. And

25:20

basically, it's restricted around materials

25:23

for civilian youth. Now

25:26

under those conditions and

25:28

under that blockade, a lot of the

25:31

needed equipment and technologies

25:34

for providing speedy

25:36

and reliable internet access and

25:38

telecommunications access has been denied

25:41

under allegations of possible dual

25:43

use. That's

25:46

why in the Gaza Strip right now, people

25:48

still have access to 2G,

25:51

that's mobile networks. In

25:53

the West Bank, people have

25:55

access to 3G networks. And

25:58

the entire Palestinian area. communications

26:01

or ICT infrastructure is

26:03

controlled by the Israeli authorities. They

26:06

decide on the

26:08

electromagnetic sphere and spectrum

26:11

and the allocation of those. They

26:13

have full control over the radio frequencies.

26:16

They have full control over the import

26:18

and the installation of

26:21

cell towers and technology.

26:23

And for a long time, the Palestinian

26:26

authority and also telecommunications companies

26:29

have been negotiating for 12 years

26:32

to have Israel allowing access

26:35

or allowing these Palestinian operators

26:37

to upgrade their mobile networks

26:40

from 2G to 3G in the West Bank.

26:42

And it was only allowed in 2018.

26:45

And since then, there have been negotiations

26:48

and campaigns

26:48

to allow Palestinian operators

26:51

to go to forgery. So basically, simply

26:53

to catch

26:53

up with the rest of the world. And in Gaza,

26:56

it's like one step behind

26:58

still because of the military blockade

27:01

that has been placed on it since 2006. Meanwhile,

27:03

here in North America and

27:04

Europe, we have 5G and are

27:10

talking about 6G, right? And

27:13

Gaza is still stuck with 2G. It

27:15

shows the inequity right there and that they can't even

27:17

make those decisions for themselves.

27:21

We've been talking about the internet shutdowns,

27:23

right? And the very basic access to

27:25

this network to be able to get online. But

27:28

we know that social media platforms

27:30

and the ability to share all

27:32

of this information through these platforms

27:34

has been very important during this time.

27:37

But we also know that those platforms

27:39

have a history of bias

27:41

against Palestinians, you know,

27:44

who post about what they've been subject

27:46

to by Israeli authorities under the

27:48

apartheid system that exists there. Can

27:50

you talk to us about kind of that history

27:53

around how social media networks

27:55

treat Palestinians and just

27:58

posts by Palestinians? I guess,

28:00

Arabic content more generally, and also

28:02

what we've been seeing kind of in this moment

28:05

from those companies.

28:06

Yeah, I mean, so social media platforms

28:09

have been a

28:10

critical civic space for Palestinians

28:13

to share their stories, they

28:15

share their narratives, to debunk

28:17

Israeli disinformation, to record

28:20

their realities

28:23

under Israeli occupation and system

28:25

of heart height, and especially in

28:27

a context where Palestinians are not

28:29

platforms on traditional media, and

28:32

where there are existing and very

28:34

clear biases about how media

28:36

reports on Palestine

28:39

and in Israel. Yeah,

28:41

I mean, but unfortunately, pretty

28:44

much similar to what

28:47

everything else we've seen, social media

28:49

platforms

28:50

have disproportionately

28:51

been targeting

28:53

Palestinian content. Palestinian

28:55

voices have been for years now

28:58

censored, and particularly during times

29:00

like these, during times where

29:03

violence surges, times where

29:05

Palestinians need social media to report

29:08

and share information as widely as they

29:10

can. In 2021,

29:12

for instance, when Palestinians

29:15

in the in Sheikh Jarrah, which is

29:17

a neighborhood in East Jerusalem,

29:20

took to social media and to the streets

29:22

to protest the possibility

29:24

of forced evictions from their homes by Israeli

29:27

authorities, social media companies

29:29

almost immediately clamped down on

29:31

that campaign. And we saw like

29:34

hundreds upon hundreds of stories

29:36

that carried the hashtag Sheikh

29:38

Jarrah, were automatically

29:41

removed. People were not able to go

29:44

on livestream. They were not able

29:47

to comment on posts. We're

29:49

not able to share

29:51

content with also

29:54

hashtags being blocked. It was

29:56

pretty egregious back in 2021. Now,

30:00

two years later, with

30:02

the genocide being committed in Gaza,

30:05

we see the same type of repression

30:08

on Palestinian content again.

30:12

Since October 7th, a

30:15

number of Palestinian journalists and

30:17

human rights defenders have been

30:19

suspended on TikTok, on Instagram,

30:21

on Facebook, again, content

30:24

being automatically and erroneously removed

30:26

under their anti-terrorism policies. I'll

30:29

give you just a few very

30:31

interesting examples just that expose

30:35

the level of censorship and

30:37

also the arbitrary nature of it. When

30:41

the Al-Ahli hospital

30:43

was bombed, which was quite

30:45

shocking news for people

30:47

around the world, Instagram

30:49

started taking down footage from that

30:52

bombing under their so-called sexual

30:54

activity and nudity policy.

30:57

The algorithms thought that the dead

31:00

bodies of Palestinians that were killed

31:03

in a hospital bombing were nude

31:05

bodies. It's very insensitive,

31:07

but also it shows you that when

31:09

you're sharing information in real time,

31:12

how the arbitrary

31:14

enforcement or over enforcement

31:16

of some policies can hinder people's ability

31:19

to express themselves and access

31:21

information freely. Other

31:24

examples include they

31:26

shut down one of

31:28

the most popular Palestinian media

31:31

organizations, Al-Quds News Network.

31:33

It has over 10 million followers

31:36

on Facebook. Early

31:39

on, Facebook shut down and I

31:41

think permanently banned the

31:44

outlet from the platform. They've

31:46

tried to create a couple of alternative

31:48

pages and they also were shut

31:50

down. Palestinian

31:53

journalists from Gaza who are using

31:55

Instagram to report from

31:58

the ground had been

32:00

hacked, have been temporarily suspended.

32:02

There is

32:05

also this so-called shadow banning, which everyone

32:07

who's been speaking up on Palestine and Gaza

32:10

has probably experienced, including myself,

32:13

where your outreach has

32:16

been significantly

32:17

reduced. You feel like you're speaking

32:19

to the void. No

32:21

one is seeing your content. No one is engaging with

32:24

it. In some

32:26

instances, people's profiles disappear

32:28

altogether. You can't even find them on

32:31

the search function on the

32:33

platform. These companies,

32:35

despite pushback from civil

32:37

society and demand for transparency,

32:40

they still deny

32:42

that all of that censorship

32:44

is intentional. They deny their

32:47

discriminatory policies and the way they apply

32:49

them. If you

32:52

look at previous examples or

32:55

take a similar context of military

32:57

occupation, for instance, Russia's invasion

33:00

of Ukraine, you'll see a completely different

33:02

response. You'll see tech companies

33:04

going above and beyond their

33:08

policies and commitments to ensure that

33:10

Ukrainians can express themselves freely

33:12

and they can access information securely

33:15

by making exceptions to their policies.

33:19

In 2022, when Russia

33:21

invaded Ukraine, META even went

33:24

on to allow an exception for

33:26

Ukrainians to

33:28

say death to Putin and death to Russians,

33:31

which they then

33:32

pulled back

33:33

after Russians essentially

33:35

threatened to add META as a

33:37

terrorist organization. If you put

33:39

these two contexts

33:42

in the position, you'll

33:44

see how in one case platform

33:46

censor and over-remove content while

33:49

denying that they're doing so and at

33:51

the same time make a number

33:53

of exceptions for people that they

33:55

think their rights are worthy

33:57

of protection and respect.

34:00

Yeah, it's been really notable to see that divide

34:03

between how the Russian invasion

34:05

of Ukraine has been treated, and then

34:08

how the Israeli bombardment

34:10

of Gaza has been treated. Just

34:12

to pick up on what you're saying, Facebook

34:14

also allowed the

34:17

praise of Ukraine's neo-Nazi Azov

34:19

Battalion, which was previously

34:21

not allowed. And just to pick

34:23

up on what you were saying back in 2021

34:25

about the platforms and their treatment

34:28

of Palestinian posts, I remember one

34:30

of the most egregious examples in that

34:32

moment was them treating posts about

34:34

the Al-Aqsa Mosque as terrorist

34:37

posts and removing them. And of course,

34:39

over the past month or so,

34:42

we've seen platforms like Instagram

34:44

look at Palestinian in people's

34:46

bios when it's next to Arabic language

34:49

and auto-translate it with the word terrorist,

34:51

and then having to apologize for doing

34:54

so. We've also seen, of course, WhatsApp

34:56

create kind of generative AI

34:58

stickers of children

35:00

with guns, I believe it was. And

35:03

there was also, to

35:05

go back to Hamlet, this organization,

35:07

they looked at posts that were being made

35:10

on social media and again found

35:12

that hate

35:14

speech posts in Hebrew have proliferated

35:18

since October 7th. So,

35:21

hate speech against Palestinians. And this

35:23

kind of stuff has not really been reigned in

35:25

by these major platforms and by ex-Twitter

35:28

in particular. But meanwhile, you

35:30

have this kind of aggressive censorship

35:33

of Palestinians and the types

35:35

of things that they post on social

35:37

media. Indeed.

35:38

I mean, also to add to that, the

35:41

types of content restrictions we see,

35:44

some of it is really ridiculous. And I

35:46

say ridiculous because I can't find any

35:48

other adjective to describe the level

35:50

of censorship we see on social media. For

35:53

instance, Palestinian flags are automatically

35:56

hidden on Instagram comments.

35:59

Why? because Instagram

36:02

finds them offensive. I

36:04

think it's blatant racism and dehumanization

36:07

because assuming that a Palestinian

36:09

flag is violent or

36:11

is offensive to others, it's a flag.

36:14

Why would any flag be offensive

36:17

to anyone? And even if it is offensive,

36:19

freedom of expression means that people have

36:22

the right to share such materials

36:24

or content without being censored

36:27

or undermined. But

36:29

to your point on how disinformation

36:32

and hate speech is flourishing on

36:34

the platform, the issue when

36:36

it comes to content moderation in

36:38

the context of Palestine is it's

36:41

a twofold problem. And it's really like

36:43

two faces of the same coin. We have

36:45

this over moderation, like z-list

36:48

over moderation by the

36:50

platform's algorithms of political

36:52

content under their so-called

36:55

anti-terrorist or terrorist and violent

36:57

extremism policies. Mind

37:00

you, so far, everything

37:02

that has been leaked around those

37:04

algorithms is not promising from

37:07

the fact that those systems are

37:09

poorly trained in Arabic languages. They

37:13

detect content and remove

37:15

it erroneously most

37:18

of the time. For example,

37:20

in one of the leaks from Facebook

37:23

researchers, an internal

37:25

memo said that Facebook's

37:28

anti-terrorist algorithms that

37:30

detect and automatically

37:32

remove terrorist content

37:35

has falsely removed nonviolent

37:37

Arabic content 77% of the time. And

37:40

let's face it, I mean, platforms do

37:42

rely on automation

37:45

most of the time.

37:46

Very recently, under

37:48

the EU Digital Services Act, the

37:51

first transparency report went out

37:54

and platforms were asked to provide numbers

37:56

on the number of their content reviewers,

37:59

but also on how... how much

38:01

they use automation for their content

38:03

moderation decisions. And it was quite

38:06

astounding to see the numbers

38:08

for Meta, for instance, they use up

38:10

to 94, automation up to 94% of

38:13

the time, or actually let's be, to

38:16

put it more accurately, 94% of

38:18

their decisions on the platform

38:21

are automated and it's 98 on Instagram. So

38:23

they are relying heavily on

38:26

those automated tools to detect and remove

38:28

content. And again, to emphasize that

38:31

most of the time it's erroneous and

38:33

arbitrary removal. Hence why we

38:35

see all this censorship. And speaking of algorithms,

38:39

you know, one thing we found out back in 2022 last year after we

38:41

insisted on Meta

38:46

conducting a platform, post-mortem

38:50

investigation into content moderation

38:53

actions in May 2021, we found out

38:55

for the human rights due diligence

38:57

investigation commissioned by Meta

39:00

asserted that the company did not have any classifiers

39:03

for hate speech in Hebrew.

39:06

So all the barrage of hate

39:09

speech and incitement to violence in Hebrew

39:12

language, a hurled at Palestinian

39:14

people, have been flourishing on the platform because

39:17

there are simply no tools for the

39:20

company to detect it and remove it. And, you know, after

39:22

the, the investigation,

39:25

Meta said that they've now built in new classifiers

39:28

in Hebrew. But another leak in

39:30

the Wall Street Journal from a

39:33

few weeks ago said that essentially

39:35

that those classifiers are not really operational. So, this

39:40

is to say that, you know, these platforms,

39:42

and that's not a surprise, I

39:44

guess, for anyone listening to the podcast,

39:47

that the companies have not invested

39:50

in it in an equitable manner in different parts

39:53

of the world. They

40:00

still prioritize the US and the English

40:02

language of the market. And,

40:04

you know, the rest of the world, including

40:07

Palestine, where it's a insignificant

40:10

market by every indicator

40:13

and measure, you know, they,

40:15

they have zero investments and also they have zero

40:18

political will to change any of

40:20

this. You know, for them, I guess

40:22

maybe Palestine is a media

40:25

issue to handle. You know,

40:27

it's every few years,

40:29

maybe over every year there is a surge in violence,

40:32

Palestinian content is removed, civil

40:34

society is upset and,

40:36

you know, in their media articles,

40:38

scandalizing and criticizing

40:41

the platform. But then things

40:43

move on to the next, the new cycle

40:45

changes and we

40:48

are in the same, you know, we're locked in the same

40:50

pattern of over censorship, no

40:52

serious change in those policies

40:55

or the way the companies informs them. They

40:57

simply don't care. Let me

40:59

put it this way. I know it's not a sophisticated answer,

41:01

but they simply do not care. They do not care.

41:04

I think what you're saying there is really important though, right? Because

41:07

it's on one side, the economics

41:09

of it, right? There's not a whole lot of profit in

41:12

ensuring that kind of a Palestinian user base

41:15

is, is happy with what they're doing,

41:17

but it's also kind of represented properly, but

41:19

then on the other side of things, we know

41:21

that the Israeli authorities have

41:24

a lot of resources that are dedicated

41:27

to how they are portrayed

41:29

on social media, but also how Palestinians

41:32

are able to use social media, and we

41:34

know that they flag a lot of posts to

41:36

the social media companies for review

41:39

and removal and that, you know,

41:41

companies like meta are very

41:44

open to those sorts of things and are very responsive

41:46

to it in a way that they're not to

41:48

Palestinian organizations who would try to do something

41:51

similar who have far fewer resources

41:53

to actually do that kind of work, right? Than

41:55

what the Israeli authorities have. But

41:57

then on top of that, I think it also.

42:00

goes back to what you were saying about misinformation

42:03

and disinformation and kind of the larger picture

42:05

of not just what happens on social media, but

42:08

on Western media reporting as well. Because

42:11

one of the narratives that we had very early

42:13

in October, as this was kind of taking off,

42:16

was that there's so much mis

42:18

and disinformation spreading at the moment, it's

42:20

hard to know exactly what is going

42:22

on, as though it's this completely

42:25

kind of depoliticized

42:27

thing that there's just all this information

42:29

out there and we can't weed through it and oh my

42:31

god, I don't know why this is, it's just technology

42:34

and social media platforms. And it's

42:36

like, okay, yes, there's a lot of that

42:38

information out there, but why is

42:40

that the case? You know, why is it so

42:42

hard to get accurate information in Gaza?

42:45

You know, it's because that there are communication

42:48

shutdowns, it's because the Israeli authorities are

42:50

keeping journalists out of Gaza, so they can't

42:52

get in and see things accurately. And

42:54

now that they are allowing journalists in

42:56

with the IDF, they need to submit all their

42:58

footage for review to the

43:00

Israeli army authorities before it can be published.

43:03

You know, organizations like CNN

43:05

have been very open about the fact that they've agreed to

43:07

these terms. So I wonder how you think

43:09

about this question of misinformation

43:12

and disinformation and kind of the

43:14

power imbalance that is

43:16

very clear in the type

43:18

of information and the type of false information

43:20

that has been spreading online, you

43:23

know, over the past month or so as

43:25

Israel's bombing campaign has continued in Gaza.

43:28

Yeah,

43:28

I mean, Israel is, has a track record

43:30

of spreading disinformation

43:32

and war propaganda. For

43:34

many Palestinians and observers, it's

43:37

almost like they use

43:39

the same playbook all the time.

43:42

There's an atrocity committed

43:45

and they plant a

43:48

complete hock information, which

43:51

then causes this massive

43:53

debate about did it happen? Did it

43:55

not happen? Who was responsible for it? And

43:59

the narrative. shipped completely

44:01

from the actual atrocity

44:04

and the human suffering that it caused to

44:07

a question of who was responsible

44:10

for it. We saw that

44:12

in the murder of the Palestinian-American

44:15

journalist Shirin Abraakle,

44:17

who worked for Al Jazeera, she was shot dead

44:19

in Jeanine. And

44:24

the first reaction from the Israeli government online

44:26

was to post a video claiming

44:29

that she was shot down or

44:31

she was gunned down by Palestinian

44:33

militia. And

44:36

thanks to journalists and also

44:38

human rights organizations, they've

44:41

quickly debunked that piece of

44:43

disinformation with evidence that actually

44:45

the location or the footage that Israel

44:47

shared were kilometers

44:50

away from where the journalist was actually

44:52

standing. And that playbook

44:55

then evolved. We saw the same

44:57

playbook used

44:59

in the bombing of Al-Ahly hospital. I

45:02

mean, the bombing happened, which was quite

45:04

horrific and harrowing. And

45:07

the thing that they've done is they posted a

45:09

footage online that showed

45:12

the, of course they claimed that it's

45:15

a failed Palestinian rocket. They

45:18

first said, I believe it was Hamas, and

45:20

then said again, it's Islamic Jihad.

45:24

The footage was called, I mean, people called them

45:26

out. People are not idiots. So

45:28

they said, well, this video has

45:30

completely the wrong timestamp on it. They

45:33

deleted it. And then they came back

45:35

with another footage that was recycled

45:37

from another conflict, also

45:39

called out and deleted it. And then they

45:42

posted another footage and alleged

45:45

intercepted calls between two Hamas

45:49

members in which they said that the

45:51

rocket was fired by Islamic

45:53

Jihad and landed in

45:55

the hospital. And the

45:58

narrative, the conversation. the

46:00

debate online and offline shifted

46:02

from the actual atrocity

46:04

to who did this. And

46:07

with that, of course, Israel evades full

46:09

responsibility. And this round,

46:12

we do not have reporters on the ground. There

46:14

are very, very few. I think Al Jazeera

46:16

probably is the only

46:19

media, global media organization that has

46:22

reporters on the ground at the moment. And

46:24

that's why the Israeli authority wants

46:26

to shut down its office and

46:29

why Secretary Blinken also reportedly

46:32

had asked the Prime Minister of Qatar

46:35

to have Al Jazeera

46:37

tone down its coverage in

46:39

Gaza. And because

46:41

we don't have reporters on the ground, there's

46:44

also less and less footage being

46:47

shared on social media by citizen

46:49

journalists and bystanders.

46:52

It becomes hard to verify. So

46:54

this is to say that information vacuums, of

46:56

course, breed disinformation because who is

46:58

there to investigate and to

47:01

verify the Israeli claims

47:03

around those war crimes and

47:05

atrocities? It's hard. And

47:07

it's harder when Western

47:10

media entertain

47:13

and publish their thoughts without any

47:15

scrutiny or proper or

47:17

do investigation from their side.

47:20

I think there is a question for later,

47:22

maybe not now, but once there is a ceasefire

47:25

and the bombings stop and the

47:28

dust settles, whether there

47:30

will be an investigation into

47:32

the war crimes and crimes against humanity

47:35

that were or have been committed or

47:37

are being committed in the Gaza Strip and

47:39

whether Israel would allow for such an investigation

47:42

to take place. They want us

47:44

to take their word for it. And some

47:47

of those claims are, to be honest, are quite

47:49

ridiculous and even an insult

47:51

to anyone's intelligence. Yesterday,

47:53

for instance, we saw footage from

47:55

the Israeli army from

47:58

a children's hospital in Gaza. on

48:00

TC Hospital in which they

48:02

alleged it was used as a Hamas

48:04

command center where they held Israeli

48:07

hostages. And they're

48:09

using diapers and a baby

48:12

bottle. They found as an

48:14

evidence that there were hostages held there.

48:16

Well, they are in a children's hospital

48:18

where many displaced Palestinian

48:21

families were taking shelter. And then

48:23

there's, of course, this whole thing about the calendar

48:25

meme where they

48:28

found a handwritten calendar

48:30

hang on the wall. And they said, oh, look

48:32

at this Hamas. There is the guard

48:35

list with their names on

48:37

it, where

48:39

it's simply a staff-shift

48:42

calendar with the

48:44

names of the week written on it in Arabic.

48:48

Today, I saw that CNN

48:51

ran with the story. And for

48:53

the American public or for non-Arabic

48:55

speakers, why would you question,

48:57

you know, you would take this probably for granted.

49:00

Why would you question the CNN

49:02

running these allegations

49:04

without any scrutiny or proper investigation?

49:07

And to your point, you know, they

49:09

have agreed to the IDF conditions

49:12

that everything they will say

49:14

will, of course, have to be approved

49:16

by the military center

49:19

in Israel. This is the disinformation

49:22

we see now. One

49:24

thing I also want to say, which

49:27

I have not seen before, is that

49:29

so many of those open source intelligence

49:32

accounts

49:33

on social media have been

49:36

active in peddling and

49:38

amplifying disinformation.

49:41

Some of those accounts have been quite active in

49:43

the context of Russia, Ukraine. So

49:46

they've built an audience and probably

49:48

credibility to their reporting. And

49:50

now they're amplifying Israeli disinformation.

49:53

And if you're not careful and

49:56

very critical of every piece of information

49:58

you see online, you'll get a lot of information. And I think that's a really good probably

50:00

fall for that propaganda.

50:02

That's a really important point and one I hadn't

50:05

even included in my notes, so I'm happy

50:07

that you brought it up. And I just want to kind

50:09

of add to what you were saying there. You

50:11

know, when it comes to the Ali hospital

50:14

bombing, you know, obviously Al Jazeera

50:16

questioned the Israeli narrative right away.

50:19

We also had Channel 4 news in the UK,

50:22

producer report, several reports

50:24

kind of calling into question the supposed

50:26

evidence that Israel presented to

50:29

dispute the narrative that it had caused

50:31

that bombing. The New York Times also

50:33

published a report calling into question

50:35

some of this evidence and there was one other Western media

50:38

organization that I'm forgetting off the top of my head.

50:40

But just to show that, you know, even

50:42

in this case, it was very much called

50:44

into question, but the kind of broader narrative

50:47

that Israel had not caused this was allowed

50:49

to stand, right? And

50:51

because they had done enough to kind of sow

50:54

doubt in the minds of the public

50:56

and in the minds of so many. But

50:58

then on top of that, of course, you have and

51:01

you know what you're saying about the kind of Arabic

51:03

calendar, it does seem to

51:06

be that the Israeli authorities rely

51:08

on the fact that you know, kind of a

51:10

Western public does not know

51:13

Arabic. And so uses

51:15

just the Arabic language itself to,

51:18

you know, kind of deceive people, whether it's, you

51:21

know, obviously, Prime Minister Netanyahu

51:23

has been saying things frequently, but the president

51:25

as well, Isaac Herzog has frequently gone

51:27

on television and held up kind of

51:30

issues of mine comp and, you

51:33

know, support, supposed kind of instructions

51:35

about creating bombs that

51:38

was supposedly found on Hamas terrorists

51:40

in Israel. And

51:42

you know, free again and again, there's

51:44

this supposed evidence that comes out that

51:46

is very quickly debunked when

51:49

Arabic speakers can see it and say, like, what

51:51

are you talking about? This is not reflective

51:53

of what you're saying at all. And also kind of videos

51:56

and as you say, kind of the supposed

51:59

phone call record. that was included

52:01

in the hospital evidence that very

52:03

clearly shows accents that are

52:05

not kind of Arabic or Palestinian accents

52:08

that don't line up with what the Israeli authorities

52:11

are trying to claim. I

52:12

didn't want to say, you know, as difficult

52:15

as it is now, and sometimes

52:17

even infuriating to see the

52:19

gaslighting of the

52:21

atrocities being committed and the justification

52:24

of Israeli war crimes, I

52:26

find it sometimes entertaining to

52:29

watch Israeli propaganda because

52:31

some of it is really quite unbelievable.

52:34

You know, that nurse or that actor,

52:36

you know, terrible actor, I

52:38

really advise her to switch careers

52:41

pretending to be a Palestinian nurse in

52:44

al-Shifa hospital and then saying that she

52:46

has to do a surgery for a five-year-old

52:48

child who has a fracture, but Hamas

52:51

took all the morphine and that there are Hamas

52:53

fighters in the hospital. I mean, it

52:56

is funny, but it just shows you the level

52:59

of depravity that while

53:01

the hospital is currently besieged and

53:03

there are people dying, patients dying

53:05

because of lack of electricity, lack of

53:08

medicine, second being to their wounds

53:10

in the most probably agonizing ways, you have

53:13

Israeli authorities resorting to

53:15

these very cheap and DIY

53:18

types of disinformation

53:21

to justify their attacks on hospitals.

53:24

And mind you, this whole discussion around, you know,

53:26

Hamas using hospitals as command

53:29

centers or there are tunnels underneath

53:31

the hospital that still would not justify

53:34

the targeting of innocent civilians

53:37

and the attack on hospitals, including

53:39

maternity wards, the shelling of maternity

53:42

wards, the shelling of intensive

53:44

care units. I mean, none of that is justified.

53:47

But then again, we're here dealing

53:49

with not only a war on

53:51

the ground, but also war on social media

53:53

and a war of narratives. And that's why

53:55

for the Israelis, it's very important

53:58

to have this

53:59

fog.

53:59

of war around what

54:02

they're doing. And also it's not only

54:04

Israeli authorities that are peddling this information.

54:07

The president of the US, Joe

54:09

Biden, has also went on

54:11

spreading this information when

54:14

he, for instance, repeats said that he

54:16

saw 40 beheaded babies, which

54:19

the White House then clarified that

54:21

they have not seen any confirmed

54:23

reports of beheaded babies. But

54:25

the CNN reported that. And then

54:28

they said, oops, sorry, we

54:30

could not verify that information. We were

54:32

misled. But the damage was already done.

54:34

The dehumanization was already done.

54:37

The justification of Israel's bombardment

54:40

and carbon bombing campaign in Gaza

54:42

is done. I think

54:44

it's important here to highlight that it's not only

54:46

Israeli authorities, but there's also, quote

54:49

unquote, so-called democratic

54:51

leaders taking part in the

54:54

spread of disinformation. It's not just some rogue

54:56

actors deliberately misleading

54:59

the public. And also to add one

55:01

more example, Joe Biden

55:04

had also questioned the number

55:06

of casualties on the Palestinian side, which

55:08

is quite inhumane, considering

55:11

the number of casualties

55:13

and the number of Palestinians that have been killed

55:16

so far. And we saw how also

55:18

other media organizations started running

55:20

the disclaimer that the

55:22

numbers from the Ministry of Health are

55:25

not to be trusted because of the Hamas

55:27

from public entity, which

55:29

led them to issue a over 200

55:33

page report with every single

55:35

name of a Palestinian

55:37

who've been killed together with their age,

55:40

gender, and their ID number

55:43

in case those who are doubtful

55:45

of the numbers can go and cross

55:47

check with the civil registry.

55:50

It's quite dehumanizing. And also,

55:52

it's not only about posting

55:55

a video

55:55

or some piece of disinformation

55:57

online, but it's about how you weave

56:01

a narrative and how you use and

56:03

construct

56:03

different parts of information

56:06

to

56:07

build this narrative that Palestinians

56:10

are terrorists, Hamas is

56:12

using hospitals and schools as military

56:15

bases and therefore it is okay to carbon

56:18

bomb the entire Gaza Strip no

56:20

matter how many Palestinians are killed,

56:23

including children and women and

56:25

men.

56:26

Yeah, it is clearly against the

56:29

Geneva Conventions to do something like

56:31

that. It also shows, you know, whether

56:33

it's with Western leaders or liberal

56:35

commentators or, you know, the

56:37

Western media kind of how the

56:39

bar of evidence is so much different

56:42

when it comes to Israeli claims versus Palestinian

56:45

claims, right? You know, they're happy to

56:47

repeat the mis and disinformation when

56:49

it comes from Israeli authorities, but

56:52

will immediately question accurate

56:54

figures when it comes from, you know,

56:56

the Palestinian side. And it was even

56:58

the UN had to come out and say that they

57:00

trust the Gaza Ministry of Health numbers.

57:03

We know that the State Department itself considers

57:05

those numbers to be trustworthy,

57:08

even though Anthony Blinken kind of

57:10

publicly questioned them and the president

57:12

did as well. And I think that your point about

57:15

dehumanization is really important as

57:17

well, right? Because we have seen a lot

57:19

of that when it comes to Palestinians,

57:22

you know, over the past month and long before, of course,

57:24

as well. And on top of that, kind of

57:26

the videos and posts, as we've been talking

57:28

about spreading on Israeli social

57:31

media, you know, kind of the

57:33

the polywood conspiracy theory that

57:36

there are, you know, all these Palestinians who

57:38

are just pretending to die and

57:40

be injured and stuff in Gaza in the West

57:42

Bank. And, you know, on top of that,

57:44

just people making posts, joking

57:47

about the fact that Palestinians in Gaza don't

57:49

have access to water and electricity

57:52

and kind of joking about and celebrating those

57:54

things. It's really disgusting

57:56

to see. I want to ask

57:58

you, you know, One thing to

58:01

kind of close this conversation about social media

58:03

in particular is that we have also

58:05

seen the Israelis move forward

58:07

with an amendment to their

58:10

counterterrorism law that bans

58:13

the consumption even

58:15

of what they call terrorist material. So

58:18

now people within Israel who are even

58:20

just scrolling social media and happen to read

58:22

posts that are supportive

58:25

of the Palestinian cause can

58:27

be charged and receive up

58:29

to a year prison sentence for that.

58:32

And that's kind of Palestinian citizens of Israel,

58:35

but also Jewish Israelis

58:37

who also don't support what their

58:39

government is doing. What do you

58:41

make of kind of the increasing move

58:44

toward authoritarianism within

58:46

Israel and the specific law criminalizing

58:50

the use of social media if you happen to interact

58:52

with anything that's pro-Palestinian? Yeah, I

58:54

mean, early on since October 7th,

58:56

the Israeli authorities have clamped

58:58

down

59:00

on freedom of expression within

59:03

Israel proper. And not surprisingly,

59:05

the majority of people arrested, prosecuted,

59:09

and detained are Palestinian

59:11

citizens of Israel and East Jerusalem

59:14

Palestinian residents. There have been

59:16

reports of hundreds of people being stopped

59:20

by Israeli authorities and the police

59:22

on the streets and asked to

59:25

share their devices in

59:27

which the authorities can scroll through

59:29

people's posts, messages, and see

59:31

what pages even they follow. And

59:34

according to a Palestinian

59:36

human rights organization, Adela, there have

59:38

been I think at least 100

59:42

and 140 cases of investigations

59:44

where people have been obtained

59:47

and investigated for something they've said

59:49

or shared on social media. But

59:52

coming to your point, on 8th of November,

59:54

the Israeli Knesset

59:56

passed a temporary amendment

59:59

to their anti or counter-terrorism

1:00:01

law of 2016, where

1:00:04

it introduced a new

1:00:07

offense, a new crime that

1:00:09

prohibits the consumption of materials

1:00:12

that can praise or support acts

1:00:15

of terrorism or terrorist organizations.

1:00:18

It also gave the Israeli

1:00:20

Minister of Justice to be able

1:00:23

to designate new groups.

1:00:25

So this amendment, the new crime of consumption,

1:00:28

is tied to consumption

1:00:30

of materials from Hamas and ISIS. But

1:00:33

the Israeli Minister of Justice can

1:00:36

add to that list in

1:00:39

agreement with the Israeli Minister

1:00:42

of Defense and the approval of the Afghanistan

1:00:45

Committee. It's pretty dangerous.

1:00:49

I mean, you see there, it's a straight

1:00:52

weaponization of law to stifle

1:00:55

dissent and to crush any Palestinian

1:00:58

form of expression or solidarity

1:01:00

with Gaza. You probably saw

1:01:02

the video of the Palestinian woman detained

1:01:06

from her house because by

1:01:08

the Israeli police, and they've read

1:01:10

out loud the charges that she

1:01:12

was facing, including spreading

1:01:15

and praising terrorist

1:01:18

organizations, supporting, posting

1:01:20

content that incites the violence and supports

1:01:23

terrorism. And also, she was investigated

1:01:25

for being involved in a terrorist

1:01:28

organization. And why? Because

1:01:30

she changed her WhatsApp status and

1:01:32

wrote that maybe be victorious

1:01:35

or something like that. A vague reference.

1:01:38

It could be to anyone. She

1:01:40

could also be referred to

1:01:42

Palestinians in Gaza, not necessarily

1:01:44

Hamas. There are many, many stories

1:01:46

like that where Palestinians have

1:01:48

been detained. There was a Palestinian student

1:01:51

in a university in Haifa where she

1:01:53

posted an Instagram story of

1:01:56

her making shakshouka and saying

1:01:58

that this is the shakshuka

1:02:00

victory and she was

1:02:02

also detained on similar allegations.

1:02:05

And the Israeli authorities have

1:02:07

been very, very clear. They

1:02:09

said that they will open

1:02:11

an investigation into any type

1:02:13

of content even if it's a

1:02:16

WhatsApp or an Instagram

1:02:18

story that disappears after 24 hours.

1:02:21

And they've also banned any

1:02:23

pro-policy and solidarity and

1:02:26

people are afraid. They're petrified

1:02:28

as a matter of fact. They can't share

1:02:30

their opinions online. They can't go out

1:02:32

on the streets to express themselves. They

1:02:35

feel threatened in their schools

1:02:37

and their universities and in their jobs

1:02:40

because anyone also can report on them. Because

1:02:42

here is the question of who's watching

1:02:45

you, right? Who's watching you on social

1:02:47

media? It could be the authorities

1:02:49

but it also could be your classmates,

1:02:52

your employer, your neighbor,

1:02:55

anyone on your list of followers

1:02:58

can report you to be authorities. And

1:03:00

we all know that the Israeli justice

1:03:03

system does not serve Palestinians

1:03:06

as well. And there it is really designed

1:03:08

to crush Palestinian expressions

1:03:10

of identity and Palestinians'

1:03:13

ability to express themselves. So

1:03:15

it is terrifying. The interesting

1:03:18

thing here to see how this

1:03:20

will evolve is that how these laws will be

1:03:22

applied to Jewish Israelis. Because

1:03:24

as I said, it's been mostly Palestinians

1:03:27

impacted by such measures. But

1:03:30

now we hear all the reports of Jewish

1:03:32

Israelis being prosecuted or detained

1:03:34

because of things that be expressed online. And

1:03:37

one thing also to remind

1:03:41

everyone is that this law, which

1:03:43

is quite draconian, has been

1:03:45

the law under which Israel

1:03:47

designated six prominent human

1:03:49

rights organizations. And so

1:03:52

one thing that I'm concerned about

1:03:54

is how potentially if the

1:03:57

situation deteriorates These

1:04:00

radio authorities can also prohibit

1:04:02

the consumption of reports and documentation

1:04:05

and content from these leading and

1:04:08

credible human rights organizations

1:04:11

in the West Bank. I mean, the same authorities

1:04:13

that can decide that a human rights organization

1:04:15

is a terrorist organization can also

1:04:18

prohibit the consumption of

1:04:20

their work and their material if they want

1:04:22

to. So

1:04:24

none of this is assuring. Let me put it this

1:04:27

way. It's quite concerning, thinking of

1:04:29

how this devolved further.

1:04:31

As

1:04:59

well, this notion of kind of Israel

1:05:02

technological superiority

1:05:05

has been really important, not just for

1:05:07

the image of Israel globally

1:05:09

and kind of the interaction of tech companies

1:05:12

with it, but also the idea that it's

1:05:14

so hard to push back against Israel because

1:05:16

it has this surveillance power. It

1:05:19

has this kind of military technological

1:05:21

might that is so difficult

1:05:24

to push back against from kind of

1:05:26

the perspective of Palestinians who are under occupation

1:05:29

and who don't have nearly the same

1:05:31

degree of tools. I think that

1:05:33

that narrative was really punctured

1:05:36

on October 7th. Whatever

1:05:38

you feel about that event, it's hard not

1:05:40

to deny that by being able to

1:05:42

breach the high-tech security

1:05:45

fence and the fact that Israeli

1:05:47

authorities were not able to detect the

1:05:49

fact that Hamas was planning this attack

1:05:52

on them because they were using analog communication

1:05:55

methods that could not be picked up by their

1:05:58

kind of digital surveillance tools. and

1:06:00

were also kind of their human surveillance was

1:06:02

not as reliable as they

1:06:05

thought. I guess what

1:06:07

does this do for the narrative of Israeli

1:06:09

technological supremacy and kind of the

1:06:11

continued way that Israel uses

1:06:14

its surveillance technologies

1:06:16

and whatnot to buy kind of support

1:06:19

abroad by selling those to other

1:06:21

governments that want to spy on their citizens?

1:06:23

I think the name of this podcast

1:06:26

is a good caption for that event that takes

1:06:29

one save anyone. But

1:06:33

yeah, I mean, Israel has relied on

1:06:35

its

1:06:36

so-called homeland security industry.

1:06:39

It prides itself of being a startup

1:06:41

nation. It prides itself in

1:06:44

being the jurisdiction that houses many

1:06:47

so-called unicorns, including

1:06:49

spyware outfits and surveillance companies

1:06:52

like NSO Group and others, and

1:06:54

has used its occupation

1:06:56

and has used its so-called experience

1:06:59

in homeland security to sell

1:07:01

that technology to governments

1:07:04

around the world. Of course, sell

1:07:06

it as tools that are battle

1:07:09

tested and field tested.

1:07:12

I remember one of the Israeli

1:07:14

biometric surveillance companies that

1:07:16

provide biometric identification

1:07:18

tech in the West Bank, but

1:07:21

also to airports around the world,

1:07:24

in which they also refer to their

1:07:27

technology as field

1:07:29

tested in one of the most challenging

1:07:32

security contexts, referring

1:07:34

again to the occupied Palestinian

1:07:36

territories. As

1:07:38

you said, the events of October 7th

1:07:41

just shattered that image. Right

1:07:44

now, I think some of the Israeli biware

1:07:47

companies like NSO Group are

1:07:50

trying to utilize or seize the moment

1:07:53

to brand themselves as forces for

1:07:55

good or as tech for good. For example,

1:07:58

a couple of Israeli companies. companies

1:08:00

that we, including NSO Group, they

1:08:02

want to help these radio authorities

1:08:05

locate and find the hostages. There

1:08:07

are also reports that it's trying to

1:08:10

seize the moment to remove the blacklisting

1:08:12

by the US Department of Commerce

1:08:16

and attempt to position themselves

1:08:19

around the lines of

1:08:21

we are indeed very

1:08:24

important or we sell very important tools

1:08:26

for

1:08:27

governments, concerned governments to

1:08:29

combat and disclose

1:08:31

terrorism and terrorist attacks. But

1:08:34

again, it's important to question this

1:08:36

entire pipeline and

1:08:38

this entire

1:08:40

military

1:08:41

industry complex and

1:08:44

where and how that technology comes

1:08:46

from and how it is tested and how it

1:08:49

evolves and also at what expense.

1:08:51

I've

1:08:51

said before and I want

1:08:54

to share here again that I think Israeli tech

1:08:56

should be treated like blood diamonds

1:08:59

because the inception and the prototyping

1:09:02

and the testing of those technologies often

1:09:04

involve the violation of Palestinians'

1:09:07

human rights. Palestinians do not consent

1:09:09

to the use of these technologies

1:09:12

on them as individuals and

1:09:14

as communities, whether it be spyware,

1:09:17

whether it be biometric surveillance tools,

1:09:19

whether it be automated weapons. We

1:09:22

have not consented to the use of these

1:09:24

technologies or the testing

1:09:26

of them on us. Even now in Gaza

1:09:28

in terms of traditional weapons, some doctors say

1:09:31

that some of the injuries they're treating, they have no clue.

1:09:34

They have not seen burns

1:09:36

or types of injuries like this before.

1:09:39

It pulls the question of what

1:09:41

tools are in arms

1:09:44

and weapons, whether it be cyber, traditional

1:09:47

or chemical, the Israelis are

1:09:49

using on Palestinians.

1:09:52

The importance

1:09:52

for governments around

1:09:55

the world and companies that import

1:09:57

and use these technologies to conduct

1:10:00

proper human rights due diligence. For me,

1:10:03

it's easy to draw the

1:10:05

lines and the dots between

1:10:09

those technologies and how they're

1:10:12

being weaponized against Palestinians. But

1:10:15

maybe for others, that is not as visible.

1:10:17

And so it's important to interrogate

1:10:19

that entire supply line

1:10:21

and understand

1:10:24

how the purchase and the use of such

1:10:26

technology can further undermine Palestinians'

1:10:29

rights and entrench their

1:10:31

oppression under Israeli apartheid and occupation.

1:10:34

Yeah, a very important point, right, to

1:10:36

recognize how these technologies are used, how

1:10:38

they're developed. It's long overdue

1:10:40

to question these things and not to

1:10:43

allow these technologies to be rolled out

1:10:45

because not only are they being developed

1:10:47

under apartheid, are they being developed

1:10:49

on an occupied population, but these are

1:10:51

surveillance technologies, right? These are biometrics technologies.

1:10:54

These are military technologies. These are

1:10:56

not things that we want to be rolled out

1:10:58

in our societies and that we should be kind

1:11:00

of pushing back against, right? And I think

1:11:03

that brings me well to

1:11:05

my final question that I wanted to ask

1:11:07

you. You know, we could talk for another hour

1:11:09

and a half and there are a million things I could ask

1:11:11

you about and talk to you about. But one of

1:11:13

the things that I think many people will have felt

1:11:16

over the past month or so is looking

1:11:19

at these videos, whether they're on Al Jazeera

1:11:21

or Western media channels or

1:11:23

on the various social media that they're consuming

1:11:26

and seeing just death and

1:11:28

destruction and feeling

1:11:32

that powerlessness that all

1:11:34

of this tragedy is

1:11:36

happening and it feels like

1:11:38

there's nothing that you can do to contribute

1:11:41

to the end of it. And so

1:11:44

I wonder, you know, in the face of that, is

1:11:47

there anything that people can do or how do you feel

1:11:49

that people might be able to respond

1:11:52

in a positive way in the face

1:11:54

of those atrocities and that tragedy?

1:11:56

There's a lot that people can do

1:11:59

and I want

1:11:59

listeners know that

1:12:01

you have so much power more than

1:12:03

you think you have. And every

1:12:05

little act of solidarity,

1:12:08

or every act of solidarity, no matter how big

1:12:11

or small, is extremely, extremely

1:12:13

important. People in Gaza

1:12:16

have been calling for a ceasefire.

1:12:18

They want the ceasefire, and

1:12:20

we're demanding a ceasefire. So

1:12:22

you can also continue demanding a ceasefire.

1:12:25

You can go out on demonstrations that are

1:12:27

now happening every weekend

1:12:29

in many capitals around the world.

1:12:32

You can write to your representatives. You

1:12:34

can call your

1:12:35

representatives.

1:12:36

It's the people

1:12:39

that you've elected and demand

1:12:41

that they call for a ceasefire. You

1:12:44

can help amplify Palestinian voices

1:12:46

on social media, despite the censorship

1:12:49

and despite the flood of disinformation

1:12:52

and dehumanization we

1:12:54

see online. I think

1:12:56

the reason why we are having

1:12:59

this conversation, the reason why

1:13:01

many people are out protesting on the streets,

1:13:04

the reason why people are even

1:13:06

bursting into conferences

1:13:09

and meetings and even train rides

1:13:12

where these officials are, is because

1:13:15

of people sharing on social

1:13:17

media. So continue sharing. Continue

1:13:19

amplifying Palestinian voices. Raise

1:13:22

and share facts,

1:13:24

testimonies from the ground.

1:13:26

Sadly, there's less and less coming out. That's

1:13:29

why every voice and every piece of

1:13:31

information matters. Do

1:13:33

not give up. Do not lose hope. And

1:13:36

again, I really want to emphasize that

1:13:38

anything you do is important. Anything

1:13:41

you do is powerful. We

1:13:43

should continue adding and building

1:13:45

pressure, especially where

1:13:47

we live here in Western capitals

1:13:50

to call out the hypocrisy, to call

1:13:52

out the complete disregard to human rights and

1:13:56

human life and demand

1:13:58

that Palestinian influence be

1:13:59

innocent lives are saved.

1:14:02

I think that's a really important way to end

1:14:04

this conversation, to let people know that there are things

1:14:06

that they can do. Social media has its

1:14:08

problems, but it's not going away. So

1:14:11

especially in moments like this, use it positively

1:14:14

where you can to raise

1:14:16

up these voices so that people

1:14:18

know what's going on. And I

1:14:21

know in some parts of the world, political

1:14:23

leaders have been warning people against going out

1:14:26

on marches in support of Palestinian

1:14:28

rights and the end to an occupation

1:14:31

and for a ceasefire in this stage of the conflict.

1:14:33

I was out in Montreal this weekend, and it was fantastic

1:14:36

to be around thousands of people calling

1:14:38

for an end to the occupation and for a ceasefire. And

1:14:40

I would highly encourage you to do the same

1:14:43

if it's happening in your own city.

1:14:45

So Marwa, it was really fantastic

1:14:47

to speak with you. I can only imagine

1:14:50

how difficult this past month or so

1:14:52

has been, but I thank you so much for the work

1:14:54

that you do and for coming to speak

1:14:56

to us and sharing that with us.

1:14:58

Yeah, it was great speaking with you. Thank you again

1:15:00

for having me.

1:15:04

Marwa Fadafzai is a Palestinian digital

1:15:06

rights advocate and Middle East North Africa

1:15:08

policy and advocacy director at Access Now.

1:15:11

Tech Won't Save Us is hosted by me, Paris Marks.

1:15:13

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1:15:15

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