0:01

Ted Audio Collective. This

0:08

is the Ted Health Podcast. I'm Dr.

0:10

Shoshana Ungerleider. On

0:12

today's show, we go on a

0:14

wild food scavenge with outdoor educator

0:17

and proud vegan, Alexis

0:19

Nicole Nelson. She tells

0:21

us why those weeds growing out of the

0:23

sidewalk might be healthier than some vegetables you

0:25

can get at the grocery store. She

0:28

also shares her secrets for getting others

0:30

to try new foods. And

0:32

then I'll speak with entomologist and

0:34

educator, Dr. Samuel Ramsey, about another

0:37

important player in human health, the

0:39

honeybee. The

0:46

fast changing world of biopharma places

0:49

a premium on trusted market insights

0:51

from industry experts who can turn

0:53

change into a competitive advantage. Listen

0:56

and subscribe to Pathfinders in Biopharma,

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the podcast series from RBC Capital

1:01

Markets to get perspectives from the

1:04

cutting edge of biotech and pharma.

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patients. Hey,

2:20

listener, a quick favor. We

2:22

are conducting an audience survey,

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and we'd be really grateful

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a few minutes to respond.

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Please visit survey.prx.org/health to take

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2:36

Thanks. If

2:39

a vegan falls in the forest

2:44

and no one's there to hear

2:47

them say, I'm vegan!

2:53

Are they even really vegan? I

3:05

like to preface conversations about

3:07

my dietary habits with jokes

3:10

because brains love the

3:13

ha-ha's and because

3:15

sometimes you say the word vegan

3:17

and people

3:19

get a little afraid. Their

3:24

mind immediately conjures

3:26

this non-existent super

3:29

vegan who's an amalgam

3:31

of every annoying thing they've ever

3:33

heard a vegan say. And

3:37

at that point, they're checked out.

3:41

Now if you've managed to somehow avoid the

3:43

zeitgeist for the last 15 or 20 years,

3:45

one, tell

3:48

me how. Two,

3:54

I will tell you what vegan means because

3:56

I'm sure you're dying to know. So

4:00

vegan is both a diet completely

4:02

free of animal products and a

4:05

person who follows that diet.

4:08

Often used interchangeably with plant-based

4:11

but like not necessarily done

4:13

to decrease animal suffering per

4:15

se but maybe to help

4:18

one's health but that is

4:20

not the argument we came to

4:22

have today. No siree

4:24

bob. Now

4:28

I am an outdoor educator.

4:32

I am a wild food forager.

4:35

I am a reluctant social media star.

4:40

And yes, I am a vegan. Thank

4:44

you. That's not the

4:46

reaction I usually get. At

4:49

the age of five upon realizing that the

4:52

cows in the field and

4:54

the cows on my dad's grill were

4:56

the same cow, I

5:00

asked my parents if I could

5:02

go vegetarian to which they

5:04

said, sure, but

5:06

let's wait until you're done growing first.

5:09

So sure that I would change my

5:11

mind over the next five to nine

5:13

years. Well,

5:17

shortly after my 12th birthday, I took

5:19

the plunge and I gave up

5:22

meat completely. It took another 12

5:24

years for me to give up eggs and dairy.

5:27

And now between the veganism

5:30

and the foraging, I have

5:32

one of the more

5:35

eclectic pantries in

5:37

the world. Now

5:40

foraging is the art

5:42

slash science of identifying,

5:44

collecting, and eating wild

5:47

food. So if anyone's

5:49

ever convinced you to try

5:51

dandelions or wood sorrel, congratulations,

5:54

you're a forager too. When

5:58

my mom told me that there

6:00

was a bunch of free food

6:02

hanging out in lawns and sidewalks.

6:07

My mind was blown. All

6:10

of these free fruits, veggies,

6:12

and sundae that didn't require

6:14

your water, didn't require

6:16

your time, and often

6:18

were healthier than their counterparts in

6:21

the grocery store. Here's a

6:23

little fun fact just between us. We

6:25

did this thing over the last hundred years where

6:28

we bred foods to travel

6:30

easier, be bigger, taste milder,

6:33

and that often breeds

6:35

out the nutrition. Let's

6:39

take, for example, perslane,

6:42

or verdolagas, if you are in a Spanish-speaking

6:44

part of the Americas. It

6:47

is a weed that grows out of

6:49

sidewalk cracks in the summertime.

6:52

It is chalks full of omega-3s, and

6:54

it ain't a fish. Iron,

6:58

get out of here, Popeye. And

7:01

vitamin C, your immune system will thank

7:03

you. Now

7:06

I am a forager

7:08

and a vegan for much the

7:10

same reason, my love

7:12

of this planet and its

7:14

inhabitants. But

7:16

let me tell you, between those

7:19

two identifiers, it's pretty hard to

7:21

get people to try my food.

7:27

You tell someone something's vegan and

7:29

you're already met with skepticism. Tell

7:32

them it's vegan and you pulled half of it out

7:34

of the ground. It's

7:38

a tough sell. So

7:41

today, I'm going to give all

7:43

of you my tips, my tricks,

7:45

on getting people to expand their

7:48

palate and try wild vegan foods

7:50

consensually. This

7:54

is not the lying liar show. It

7:57

is the slightly annoying but ultimately lovable.

8:00

bowl tall vegan show. So

8:04

today we are going to be making

8:06

a snack that happens to be vegan,

8:08

happens to be great for the planet,

8:11

happens to use one of my favorite

8:13

ingredients. We are making sweet and salty

8:15

kelp chips, a Korean snack

8:18

known as dasimha chugak. Oh,

8:21

thank you. A woo for the

8:23

pronunciation. I was worried about it. Now

8:28

I know all of y'all's kids are

8:30

obsessed with those nori seaweed snacks. So

8:34

why not kick it up a notch

8:36

with a locally foraged ingredient, bull

8:39

kelp. Now I'm going

8:41

to give you my first

8:43

tip. When

8:45

introducing a dish to skeptical mouths,

8:49

it is best to use a dish

8:51

that is not pretending to be something

8:53

else. You

8:57

know that

8:59

way there's no prior associations.

9:02

Me, maybe, needs to be

9:04

comparing it to a mother's version

9:06

of it. Maybe

9:09

they have no opinions about

9:12

it at all. Now

9:15

seaweed and sea vegetables in

9:17

general are a very

9:19

exciting food space. They

9:22

don't require fresh water, they

9:25

don't require fertilizer, they don't even

9:27

require land. They're

9:29

just hanging out on the salty

9:32

seas creating ecosystems, creating oxygen for

9:34

all of us to breathe and creating

9:36

these amino acid rich snacks. In

9:39

this day and age seaweed is truly future-minded

9:41

food. They're an option I

9:44

wish more people would reach for as

9:46

runoff, water access,

9:48

labor issues, and monoculturing

9:51

plague a lot of modern

9:53

agriculture here in North America. Also,

10:00

they taste real good! Those

10:04

amino acids do a lot more

10:06

than adding umami to your dishes.

10:09

Bulk help on average packs

10:11

15.3% protein by weight. That

10:16

is for everyone who asks where vegans

10:18

get their protein from. We're

10:21

fine. Now,

10:26

as I said before, this dish is

10:29

nothing new. It's a popular bar

10:31

snack in parts of Korea. And

10:33

we actually have a lot of

10:36

accidentally vegan recipes

10:38

historically. And the

10:40

reason for that is because up until recently we did

10:42

not eat this much meat. Which

10:45

is going to lead to my second

10:48

tip. It's a little spicy, a

10:50

little touchy, and it is this. Explain

10:54

to your friends that the way that

10:56

we are eating is not sustainable.

11:00

No. As

11:03

we are constantly reaching for more

11:05

land and more fresh water, we

11:08

have set a precedent that

11:10

our planet cannot keep

11:12

up with. Tell them

11:14

you are not trying to change their entire life.

11:18

You just want them to be a bit more thoughtful

11:20

with some of their choices to go

11:22

for those kelp chips instead of maybe

11:24

pork rinds from the convenience store. I

11:27

find that introducing people to wild

11:29

foods in their area is an

11:32

excellent way to foster their

11:34

connection to their food. And

11:36

it's a way that fosters that connection

11:39

over shame. And

11:41

it shares a snack instead of an

11:43

infographic. Or

11:45

a shocking piece of media. Now,

11:49

I'm going to be real real with

11:51

all of you because I would never not be real

11:53

real with you. Some

11:56

people are going to be

11:59

salty. And

12:02

that's just the way it goes.

12:04

We don't get to choose the pace at

12:06

which people change, if they

12:08

choose to change at all. But

12:13

some people will be sweet. They

12:17

will appreciate you for meeting them where

12:19

they are, for

12:22

sharing a snack and a smile.

12:24

And maybe you extending that bit

12:26

of compassion to them will

12:28

make them make some big changes

12:31

moving forward in their life. And

12:34

who knows, maybe next time they'll be gutsy

12:36

enough to try acorn cheese or something. So

12:40

share that snack and make

12:43

that memory. Thank you all so

12:46

much for coming to my talk.

12:48

Happy snacking. Don't die. Hi

12:54

TED Health listeners, Dr. Shoshana again. Alexis

12:57

was right about our current food

12:59

model not being sustainable. But

13:02

it even extends beyond the choices we

13:04

make at the grocery store or the dinner table.

13:07

You've probably heard that the honey bee

13:09

and native bee health is declining worldwide.

13:12

According to preliminary results from

13:14

the Bee Informed Partnership, last

13:17

year saw the highest annual loss on

13:19

record for managed bee colonies in the

13:22

US, 50.8%. These

13:25

insects are critical to crop production

13:28

and a decline in their populations

13:30

threatens food security all over

13:32

the world. So today I'm

13:34

joined by Dr. Samuel Ramsey, an

13:37

entomologist, educator, and the

13:39

founder of the Ramsey Research Foundation,

13:42

where his work has led to breakthrough

13:44

discoveries into declining bee

13:46

populations. Dr. Ramsey, welcome.

13:50

I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me. So

13:52

until recently, I never appreciated

13:55

the connection between the health

13:57

of pollinators and human

13:59

health. Can you talk about this? The

14:02

connection is quite substantial, but

14:04

we have a tendency in our culture,

14:06

definitely in America, not to really pay

14:08

as much attention to insects as I

14:10

think that we should. About

14:13

three-quarters of the animals on this

14:15

planet are insects. So just think

14:17

about how much of the world

14:19

they make up, and they run

14:21

our ecosystems. Other examples of pollinators

14:23

include moths, butterflies, bats,

14:26

some beetles. One of the most important

14:28

things about our pollinators is, well, really

14:30

where they get their name from, pollination.

14:32

They land on a flower, they move

14:34

pollen from one flower to the next,

14:36

and that allows that flower to create

14:38

fruit and vegetables, the things that we

14:41

consume. So 87

14:43

of the 115 leading crops produced

14:45

around the world depend on pollinators

14:48

for their yield. That

14:50

is just incredible. I

14:52

did not know that. I would

14:54

love to hear more about your story and

14:56

how you got into this work. It

14:59

is kind of an odd

15:01

story because when I was a

15:03

kid, I was terrified of insects, and

15:06

I thought that they were just the creepiest creatures

15:08

on the planet. My parents

15:10

were like, oh no, this is developing into an irrational

15:12

fear. We have to do something about this. They

15:14

got me a library card as a seven-year-old,

15:17

and I started reading about these insects on a regular

15:19

basis. By the end of that summer,

15:21

I told my parents, I want to be an entomologist when I

15:23

grow up. I have always wanted

15:26

to use my interest in

15:28

insects and symbiosis to solve

15:30

real-world problems. Some of them

15:32

could be in health with

15:35

issues like mosquitoes and dracunculus

15:37

guinea worms and better

15:39

understanding them and the impact that they have on

15:41

human health and how we can mitigate the problems

15:43

they cause. But the

15:45

one that really came up when I

15:47

was in graduate school, I was consistently

15:50

faced with the issue that our honeybees

15:52

are declining rapidly, in addition to our

15:54

native bees. Our native bees are showing a

15:56

lot of these same stresses and problems, but we don't

15:58

pay as much attention to them. And I really

16:00

wanted to give them the attention that they deserve. As

16:03

somebody who is really fearful of most

16:05

insects myself, I think it's incredible how

16:08

you really took that library card and

16:10

leaned into the fear. Yeah.

16:13

Dr. Sammee, there seems to be a lot

16:15

of reasons honey bee populations are declining.

16:18

From intensive chemical farming practices

16:20

to climate change and loss

16:22

of habitat. But you've

16:24

done some award-winning research. Can you

16:26

tell us a little bit about that? Well done

16:28

there in citing that there are

16:31

multiple issues all impacting bee populations

16:33

at the same time. That's what

16:35

makes this problem a lot more

16:37

complex. Most people have heard,

16:39

this is really simple, the bees are having problems

16:41

because of pesticides. If we get rid of those

16:44

pesticides, the bees will be fine. But

16:46

one of the issues that we're seeing here

16:48

is that the bees have been exposed to

16:50

these pesticides for decades and for some reason

16:53

they're becoming this huge issue now. There were

16:55

these nine different pathologies we're trying to understand

16:57

how all of them were coming

16:59

about at the same time for our

17:02

bees. Well the research that I conducted

17:04

as a graduate student, I was trying

17:06

to understand the connection with a parasitic

17:08

mite called Varroa destructor. And that name

17:10

should grip you immediately because that is

17:13

dramatic. The

17:15

really fascinating part to me was that

17:17

everything written about this creature usually says

17:20

this organism feeds on the bee's blood.

17:22

So it seemed like a very clear-cut

17:24

conclusion that was reached through experimentation and

17:27

we knew this for sure. But when I

17:29

looked at the organism's anatomy

17:31

and especially its metabolism, it didn't

17:33

make sense that it was taking

17:35

in a resource that was primarily

17:37

water and converting that

17:39

resource very rapidly into everything

17:41

that it needed for its very

17:43

rapid life cycle. They're capable of

17:45

producing an egg every 30 hours.

17:48

You would need a huge amount of nutrition to

17:51

do that, not to

17:53

mention all the other problems that would come along with it.

17:55

So it was clear to me that these

17:58

mites have to be feeding on some... element

18:00

of the bee that is very complex

19:06

and that's just one bug and one parasite. That's really incredible. Dr. Sammi, if

19:08

we lose honeybees, are there

19:10

enough other types of pollinators to keep our food

19:12

production going? Well, that's a yes and a no. So

19:14

we can definitely keep food production going without honeybees. Honeybees

19:17

are not native to the eudyceus. They're

19:22

not native to the eudyceus. They're native to the eudyceus. They're native

19:24

to the eudyceus. Well,

19:28

without them, the ecosystem

19:31

is definitely capable of sustaining itself

19:33

with the multiple species of native

19:35

pollinators that we already have here.

19:37

They are called the European honeybee

19:39

because they are from Europe and

19:42

the settlers brought them over so that

19:44

they could have this incredible insect in

19:46

the colonies. Well, without

19:48

them, the ecosystem is definitely capable of

19:51

sustaining itself with the multiple species of

19:53

native pollinators that we already have here.

19:55

It's not just the 4,000 bees that

19:57

are native to the eudyceus. America,

20:00

but all the butterflies and bats

20:02

and moths and everything else. But

20:06

the reason why we continuously depend

20:09

on honeybees is because we want

20:11

to grow more food than

20:13

the pollinators can typically sustain. We want

20:16

those foods outside of their normal season

20:18

and we want them now and we want

20:21

them cheaply. So if we were to get

20:23

rid of the honeybees, we would lose a

20:25

lot of the foods that we consume on

20:27

a regular basis. They would become seasonal again.

20:29

We wouldn't be able to get as much

20:31

of them, which means the prices for them

20:33

would go up. While our native pollinators can

20:35

sustain some level of them, it would

20:37

be much lower than the industrial agricultural

20:39

system that we currently come to depend

20:41

on every time we go to the

20:44

supermarket. Ah, okay.

20:46

So people like you and others

20:48

are starting to raise awareness about

20:50

this issue. Are we seeing any

20:52

improvement or are the bee population

20:54

still declining? In

20:57

some years we will see improvement and then

20:59

we'll have years like last year where we lose

21:01

more than 50% of

21:04

our honeybee population and that is

21:06

incredibly disheartening while you're working really

21:08

hard to figure out what you

21:10

can do to help the bees.

21:13

Their issues are so multifaceted because

21:15

while the varroa mite is driving

21:18

the bulk of the decline, there

21:20

are new issues mounting every day.

21:22

The northern giant hornets,

21:24

formerly known as murder hornets, those were

21:26

brought over to the US. Those are

21:28

a huge issue for them and the

21:30

Washington State Department of Agriculture and the

21:33

USDA have been working hard to push

21:35

them back and keep them from becoming

21:37

established. But if they were to become

21:39

established in the US, that's another stress

21:41

factor. There's a parasite very closely related

21:43

to varroa that's currently spreading around the

21:45

world now that I'm studying in Southeast

21:48

Asia and that one

21:50

has even more deleterious impacts than

21:52

the varroa mite. We utilize lawn

21:54

care insecticides that are bad for

21:56

the bees. We frequently get

21:58

rid of all of the flowers in

22:00

an area so that we can have

22:03

a pristine green lawn and that provides

22:05

no food, no nectar, no pollen to

22:07

our pollinators. So they're dealing with so

22:09

many things all at the same time

22:11

and it just takes one harsh winter

22:13

for them to really get impacted by

22:15

all of those stress factors. So

22:18

how can the average person help

22:20

to solve this issue? The average

22:22

person can actually do a lot.

22:25

Many people in the U.S. have

22:27

a home or some area

22:29

where they can grow flowers. There's

22:32

no reason to believe that a lawn

22:34

with no dandelions on it is a

22:37

better lawn than a lawn that has

22:39

a bunch of wildflowers growing. That's simply

22:41

the marketing tactic for a number of

22:43

weed-killer companies that if you are doing

22:45

your job well as a homeowner, you'll

22:47

get rid of all the flowers growing

22:50

on your lawn because it works well

22:52

for their product to be marketed. But

22:54

if you were to just plant one

22:56

square foot of flowers, even if

22:58

you don't have a lawn but you have

23:00

a garden box that you can hang outside

23:02

of your window with one square foot of

23:05

flowers, you can make a huge impact on

23:07

the pollinators in your area with native plants,

23:09

by the way. In addition to

23:11

that, how's a homeless bee? There are so

23:13

many bees out here that don't have a place

23:15

to lay their heads at night. They usually live

23:18

in the dried out reeds of plants,

23:20

small cavities in trees. You can buy

23:22

little bee hotels or you can make

23:24

them yourself by just getting a chunk

23:27

of wood and drilling holes into that

23:29

chunk of wood. You create

23:31

a little cavity that the bees

23:33

can fly into and raise an

23:35

entire family in. A makeshift

23:37

version of what they would normally nest in

23:40

in the wild and you give them the

23:42

space to live their life without having to

23:44

be in consistent competition with other bees. Now,

23:47

that is a great way to help

23:50

the native population and you

23:52

can become a beekeeper. That's

23:54

so cute, right? Isn't it

23:56

adorable? And a lot of people don't even know about these

23:58

things but there has been really... fancy ones you

24:01

can buy online that will dazzle your neighbors.

24:03

Okay, so I feel like there are a

24:06

lot more people becoming amateur beekeepers. Is this

24:08

a trend that you're seeing and is

24:10

it a good thing to do? If

24:12

you want to help the honeybee population, you

24:14

can certainly become a beekeeper, but you have

24:17

to become an informed,

24:19

active, and engaged beekeeper. If you choose

24:21

to just get a box of bees,

24:24

put them out into your backyard and

24:26

never check on them again, unfortunately they're

24:28

going to get riddled with parasitic mites.

24:30

When that colony dies, those parasitic mites are

24:32

then going to be transmitted to the colonies

24:34

of beekeepers who are trying to manage those

24:37

populations and it can be bad for everyone.

24:39

So it's actually better if you don't become

24:41

a beekeeper, if you don't have the time

24:43

for it, or don't want to learn about

24:45

the craft. Dr. Sami,

24:47

this was such a fascinating conversation.

24:49

I just learned a ton. I

24:51

just have to say this is

24:54

such important work and I thank you

24:56

so much for talking about it with

24:58

me today. Aww, thank

25:00

you so much. I'm really glad that

25:02

I had the opportunity to proselytize for

25:05

the wonderful bees. Thanks

25:10

so much for listening today. This episode

25:12

was produced by Transmitter Media and fact

25:14

checked by Ted. And

25:17

special thanks to Anna Phelan,

25:19

Sami Case, Grace Rubenstein, Maria

25:21

Lajas and Colin Helms. I'm

25:24

Dr. Shoshana Unger-Lider. Stay well and

25:26

I'll talk to you next week.