0:00

This message comes from NPR sponsor

0:02

Capella University. With Capella's FlexPath learning

0:04

format, you can earn your degree

0:07

online at your own pace and

0:09

get support from people who care

0:11

about your success. Imagine your future

0:13

differently at capella.edu. Hey,

0:17

it's Minouche. All year long you've

0:19

been hearing me plug this TED

0:21

Radio Hour Plus thing. Quick reminder,

0:23

by supporting our show, you get

0:25

all our episodes ad-free and you

0:27

get bonus episodes. So thank

0:29

you if you are a supporter. And if

0:32

you're not yet, well, we thought we'd wet

0:34

your whistle with a listen to a bonus

0:36

episode that you would get to hear. So,

0:39

TED speaker and Antarctic

0:41

explorer Ariel Waldman is

0:43

fierce. And she told

0:46

producer Matthew Cloutier recently all about

0:48

her new expedition. We

0:50

hope listening entices you to try

0:52

out TED Radio Hour Plus. You

0:55

can sign up using the link

0:57

in the show notes or just

0:59

go to plus.npr.org/TED. And

1:01

yeah, if you're not a supporter yet, you're going

1:04

to hear some ads real quick because they help

1:06

us pay the bills too. But

1:08

after that, enjoy Matthew and

1:10

Ariel. This message

1:12

comes from NPR sponsor Discover. Did

1:15

you know Discover wants everyone to feel special?

1:17

That's why with your Discover card, you have

1:19

access to 24-7 customer service as

1:22

well as zero dollar fraud liability, which

1:25

means you are never held responsible for

1:27

unauthorized purchases. Learn

1:29

more at discover.com/credit card.

1:32

Limitations apply. This This message

1:35

comes from NPR sponsor Spectrum Business.

1:37

Spectrum Business is made to work

1:39

the way small business works. That's

1:42

why Spectrum Business provides internet, phone,

1:44

and mobile services that are made

1:47

to work as hard as you

1:49

do. Learn more at spectrum.com slash.

2:00

could go farther. And when you want

2:02

to navigate through all the complexities of

2:04

retirement strategies, it can help to sync

2:06

up with an Edward Jones financial advisor.

2:08

They can help you figure it all

2:10

out with an approach that puts your

2:12

goals first, not their products. And best

2:14

of all, they're right around the corner.

2:16

Let's figure it out together. Edward Jones.

2:20

Support for NPR and the following

2:22

message come from Progresso. When you're

2:24

having a busy day, stepping away

2:26

for a break can make all

2:28

the difference. Progresso invites you to

2:30

reclaim lunchtime and sink in to

2:32

your favorite cozy armchair with

2:35

their traditional chicken noodle soup. Savor

2:38

each bite of warm, flavorful broth

2:41

and tender chunks of chicken with

2:44

carrots and celery and

2:47

tasty noodles. For

2:49

more delicious ways to reclaim

2:52

lunchtime, visit progresso.com. Hey

2:55

there, Ariel. Thanks so much for chatting with us

2:57

again. I've really been looking forward to it. Me

3:00

too. And just to

3:02

kick us off, can you just remind

3:04

our listeners what you do

3:06

and what brought you to Antarctica in the first

3:08

place? Yeah, so I'm

3:10

an Antarctic explorer and filmmaker. And

3:13

really what brought me to Antarctica

3:15

in the first place was to

3:17

film the microscopic life that lives

3:19

under the ice. Yeah,

3:21

my favorite. One of my favorite moments, I

3:24

should say it was when you described to

3:26

Manouche going in this pipe

3:28

that goes through the ice and you

3:30

can kind of climb underneath the ice

3:33

and see this whole underwater world. And

3:36

at the bottom of this tube, you're

3:38

embedded between the sea ice and

3:40

the sea floor. So you're kind

3:42

of floating there, so to speak,

3:45

with windows where you're able to see all

3:47

of the life on the sea floor. And

3:50

you can hear all of these amazing

3:53

wettles feels which sound like

3:55

synthesizers all around you. It's

3:57

really magical and it really...

4:00

changed my perspective on why anyone would ever

4:02

want to be a diver in Antarctica. And

4:06

you know you got to take microbes from there.

4:09

I also will never forget the moment you know

4:11

you in Manoush watched a ciliate. Oh

4:15

and it's it's moving a bit it's got

4:17

a little

4:21

shimmy. What is happening here Ariel? Who

4:23

is this? Yeah so this

4:25

is a ciliate. It's a type of

4:27

protist and protists they're not animals they're

4:29

not plants and they're not fungi. They

4:32

are their own thing. And you saw

4:34

it just here poop out

4:37

like a little piece of stuff

4:39

from its stomach. It pooped! This

4:42

is what I love about ciliates. They're

4:44

called ciliates. Great and so you know we

4:46

wanted to speak with you again because you

4:49

just went back and you just came back really a

4:51

few months ago right? Yeah yeah.

4:54

And so I've really been diagnosed you know how much

4:56

of the second trip was a continuation of the film

4:58

work that you you know did the first

5:00

time around and really what part of this was new?

5:03

So I went back to Antarctica

5:05

this past year because I wanted

5:07

to film a documentary

5:10

about the unique region that I

5:12

go to the Dry Valleys. It's

5:14

a polar desert and it's the largest

5:16

area of Antarctica that's not fully covered

5:19

in snow and ice and it's a

5:21

place where you can actually study the

5:23

continent itself. And when I

5:25

went to Antarctica the first time I

5:27

was there to film all the microscopic

5:30

creatures that live there which was amazing.

5:32

But I really wanted to put them

5:34

in context and really showcase the life

5:36

that's there from multiple orders of magnitude

5:39

and within the ecosystems that they live in

5:41

which are just super fascinating

5:43

and really strange. And so I

5:46

filmed for two months straight

5:48

a documentary which I'm

5:50

currently working on post-production for. And when

5:53

do you say filming life at multiple

5:56

orders of magnitude? What

5:58

do you mean by that? Yeah,

6:00

so filming a documentary in

6:02

Antarctica this season, I wanted

6:04

to look at life from

6:06

multiple orders of magnitude, really

6:08

inspired in part by the

6:10

Eames's Powers of Ten film.

6:14

Now every ten seconds we will look from

6:16

ten times farther away and our field of

6:18

view will be ten times wider. So it's

6:20

this film that came out in the 1970s. It

6:23

showcases really our existence on Earth

6:25

both by zooming way out to

6:28

get the galactic view and also

6:30

then zooming way in to the

6:32

molecular level. The trip back to

6:34

the picnic on the lakefront will be a sped up

6:36

version reducing the distance from the Earth's surface by one

6:38

power of ten every two seconds.

6:42

So it really was kind of a first

6:44

of its kind film that's still shown

6:46

in art schools and science classrooms alike

6:49

to this day. And I

6:51

think viewing the

6:53

world through those different lenses really

6:55

teaches us a lot about how

6:58

we can relate to different things

7:00

on planet Earth in space and

7:02

also the microscopic level. And

7:05

so I went to Antarctica and filmed

7:07

this documentary from the satellite view

7:09

down to the microscopic level

7:11

and everything in between. So using

7:14

drones, macro lenses and the like

7:16

to really get this fascinating view

7:18

of what the ecosystems

7:21

in Antarctica are like and how

7:23

we can relate to them. I

7:26

remember seeing the power of ten film I guess

7:29

in high school. I'm sure a science teacher showed it to

7:31

me. And it's just one of those things that that

7:34

like actually blows your mind. It kind

7:36

of pulls it clear out of its

7:38

standard frame. But right. So taking

7:40

that as inspiration, but like

7:42

applying it to Antarctica, that

7:44

must have come with just

7:47

a slew of challenges. First

7:50

and foremost, like not an easy place to

7:52

film, I think. Yeah. I

7:54

mean, there were so many challenges to filming

7:56

in Antarctica. It's really honestly

7:59

one of the tougher jobs

8:01

because I'm there embedded

8:03

as a researcher with a research

8:06

team and a lot of my

8:08

colleagues are going on these huge

8:10

hikes, you know, 10 mile hikes

8:13

every day doing really difficult work,

8:15

heavy backpacks, and it's so challenging.

8:18

But my work actually isn't involved

8:20

in doing huge hikes or anything

8:22

like that. What is involved

8:25

is pulling out cameras and standing

8:27

still in freezing temperatures and trying

8:29

to film tiny organisms that I

8:31

can't even see with my own

8:33

eyes using a series

8:35

of different lenses. And so while

8:37

my work might not be the

8:39

most physically challenging, it certainly is

8:41

the coldest type of work because

8:43

just going out in Antarctica and

8:45

not moving for hours at a

8:47

time, it's real cold.

8:50

And honestly, it was the coldest

8:52

I had ever been in Antarctica this time

8:54

around trying to film all of these different

8:57

orders of magnitude with different lenses. So

9:00

I would be out there with my

9:02

drone. And of course, I would have

9:04

to keep my drone batteries warm enough so that I could

9:06

use them. But then, you know,

9:08

even doing drone work, you're typically standing

9:10

still for a long period

9:13

of time just trying to get the right

9:15

shot. And also it

9:17

was challenging because this area of

9:19

Antarctica is so highly protected that I

9:22

wasn't able to bring a film crew with me. So

9:25

when I say that I

9:27

filmed a documentary in

9:30

Antarctica over two months, it wasn't me with

9:32

a film crew. It was just me. So

9:34

I would have to set up cameras. I'm

9:36

also trying to be the host of this

9:38

documentary. So I'm filming myself. I'm filming these

9:41

creatures. I'm doing the drone

9:43

work. You know, I'm setting up the macro

9:45

shots on rails, a lot of

9:47

different types of shots that I'm just trying to

9:49

get over the course of two months, but all

9:51

by myself and in freezing

9:54

weather. So it was certainly a challenge for

9:56

sure. Yeah. You're

9:58

reminding me of all people. Bo

10:00

Burnham and his inside special, you know, like

10:02

when he was it was all done in

10:04

lockdown It was just like him in a

10:06

room. You're like the outside version of that.

10:09

It's funny that you totally

10:12

because I think I said like

10:14

in one of my newsletters or something like this is

10:16

like Bo Burnham's inside

10:19

except in Antarctica and

10:21

with less light And tiny microbes

10:23

yes and tiny

10:26

microbes There's

10:28

really nothing like Bo Burnham except for

10:30

really shooting it myself and and having

10:32

a hard go of it And

10:36

I guess also speaking of microbes I'm dying

10:38

to ask what the cast of creatures was

10:41

this time the ones you put under the scope

10:43

and I guess also the drone during this trip,

10:46

so a lot of the Creatures that

10:48

I wanted to film in Antarctica and

10:50

got the chance to film are the

10:52

microscopic animals you know the tardigrades the

10:54

rotifers the nematodes and I

10:57

got to also film creatures that I

11:00

didn't get to see last time even

11:02

so mites and springtails These

11:04

little tiny tiny things that you can

11:06

actually see them a little bit with

11:09

your naked eye But very barely they're

11:11

right right at that edge

11:13

between microscopic and macroscopic So

11:16

that makes them especially challenging to film because you

11:18

have to sort of decide if you use a

11:20

microscope or a macro lens But

11:22

you know it's like I went to Antarctica

11:25

to film life under the ice to showcase

11:27

to the world That there's a lot of

11:29

life in Antarctica and this second expedition I

11:31

went on blew my mind

11:33

even further that there's really truly even

11:35

more life than I even Expected

11:38

there to be in Antarctica. There's just

11:40

so much and so

11:42

I got to film for the

11:44

first time Predator tardigrades which look

11:46

a little bit different from the tardigrades that

11:48

you'll typically find in my there are

11:51

tardigrades The heat of

11:53

other things yes. Yeah, so there's

11:55

a predator tardigrade. You know it's

11:57

a millnesium tardigrade and those ones

12:00

feast on other nematodes, other

12:03

creatures. And when you

12:05

look at them walking around, they're

12:07

sort of like these big lumbering,

12:09

you know, lions of the microscopic

12:12

jungle in Antarctica. And

12:14

they look totally different from

12:16

other tardigrades that are typically

12:18

only eating moss or cyanobacteria.

12:21

And, you know, there's a thousand species

12:23

of tardigrades out in the world. And

12:25

so getting to see the different species

12:28

that live in Antarctica and seeing

12:30

how different they are and really

12:32

building out this idea that there's

12:34

a whole Serengeti of microscopic animals

12:36

in Antarctica was just amazing. Okay,

12:39

so there's this film that

12:41

you're working on with this whole micro

12:44

safari at all different

12:46

scales. But you had also mentioned

12:48

for this trip in particular, it wasn't

12:50

just about film, it

12:52

was also about research. Yeah. And for that

12:55

part, you were with a whole team, right?

12:58

Yeah, so I am a formal

13:00

collaborator with the McMurdo Dry Valley's

13:02

long term ecological research team. And

13:04

they are a team that has

13:07

been making measurements of the Dry

13:09

Valley since 1993. And so they

13:11

study the glaciers and the frozen

13:14

lakes and the soil and lots

13:16

of different aspects of this ecosystem.

13:19

And they're able to really be the

13:21

ones to tell us how climate change is

13:24

affecting this area. And it's honestly

13:26

affecting it in really unique ways

13:29

in which people might not totally expect.

13:32

So I was specifically embedded on the

13:34

soils team, and they study the microorganisms

13:36

that live in the Dry Valley. And

13:39

so I was able to provide a lot

13:41

of value by being a microscopist, because while

13:44

they make all these amazing

13:46

measurements, they very rarely get the

13:48

opportunity to film the creatures that

13:50

they study in high fidelity, and

13:53

be able to actually make behavioral

13:56

observations about them. And that

13:58

is really invaluable. because we

14:00

can't just send everyone to Antarctica.

14:02

And so we really need high

14:05

fidelity video to educate the next

14:07

generation of scientists and also

14:09

to make new scientific discoveries in any behaviors

14:11

that we might see. Yeah,

14:14

I would think too, it just

14:17

helps to get the science out

14:19

of the journals and into the actual

14:21

world. And you sense

14:23

that some of these findings, the ones

14:26

related to climate change in particular, they're

14:28

not exactly what we might expect to see. How

14:31

so? What's been the surprise? Yeah,

14:34

so this area of Antarctica is the

14:36

closest to the South Pole that you

14:38

can get while still being on the

14:40

coast. And so this area doesn't have

14:43

the same story that people have come

14:45

to expect of the Arctic or even

14:47

the peninsula of Antarctica, where you get

14:49

just massive ice melting events

14:51

and all the ice is going away

14:54

and what are we going to do?

14:56

That is absolutely happening in those locations.

14:58

But in this location, the story of

15:01

climate change is actually a story of

15:03

habitability and what that means in

15:05

a changing climate. So for

15:08

a while, they weren't really sure how climate

15:10

change was going to affect the dry valleys,

15:12

like which direction it was going to go.

15:14

And so it's really only in the last

15:16

couple few years where they've

15:18

been able to take measurements and really see the

15:21

direction that it's going. And it's

15:23

going windier, wetter, and warmer. This

15:26

area of Antarctica has only been

15:28

habitable for thousands of years by

15:30

these tardigrades and rotifers and nematodes

15:32

and certain types of bacteria. And

15:35

so in a warmer, wetter environment, what you're

15:37

actually going to be seeing in this area

15:39

change is the fact that as

15:41

microbes get blown in the air around

15:44

the Earth, which they do, typically

15:46

when they land in Antarctica, they

15:49

immediately die off. Like it doesn't have a

15:51

chance to adapt. These little creatures

15:53

that do live there are extreme enough and

15:56

have been able to get a foothold. in

16:00

and survive there for a long time

16:02

and might either decimate an entire species,

16:05

create more competition, there might be less

16:07

food. And so

16:09

it's actually a slightly unpredictable

16:11

environment because you now

16:14

have an ecosystem with new players

16:16

and more factors going on. And

16:18

so we don't exactly know who

16:21

will be the winners and losers

16:23

of these new environments that develop

16:25

over time. And that's

16:27

why it's so critical to study

16:29

these ecosystems now because if we're

16:31

not filming these ecosystems and researching

16:34

them, we might totally lose an

16:36

understanding of what the ecosystem dynamics are

16:39

before they ultimately change forever.

16:43

You know, you're reminding me of conversations that, you know,

16:45

Manusha's had with, geez,

16:47

any number of scientists who just, they all

16:49

feel like they're in a race against time

16:51

with climate change. Totally. But I

16:53

guess in the spirit of ending with some joy, maybe.

16:55

I want to make sure we get to

16:58

talk about your book too. Because when I

17:00

hear some of these places you're describing in

17:02

Antarctica, they're really spectacular places. It

17:04

reminds me of some of the science fiction

17:07

I've read and watched. And

17:09

clearly that's been an inspiration for a lot of the

17:11

ideas there. And this book that

17:13

you have is super fun because to

17:15

me it kind of puts the science

17:17

back in science fiction. And

17:20

so can you just tell us what it's

17:22

about, what it's called, and also how it

17:24

took shape? Yeah, so my

17:26

upcoming book is called Out There,

17:28

the Science Behind Sci-Fi Film and

17:30

TV. And it's really about having

17:32

conversations with fascinating researchers and pop

17:34

culture experts and artists and writers

17:37

about science fiction, TV

17:40

and film, and talking through the

17:43

science behind them. So talking about,

17:45

you know, if we could actually

17:47

outrun black holes, if suspended animation

17:49

is something that we could even

17:51

fathom for humans. Talking

17:53

about alien planets and what those

17:55

could be like. One

17:57

where I was really maybe not... an

18:00

expert in and didn't really know

18:02

the way the conversation was going to go.

18:04

It would be the chapter on if

18:07

there are killer alien insects

18:09

on another world inspired by

18:11

Starship Troopers. It's

18:14

a very out there, to use the

18:16

title of the book, sort of topic

18:18

and conversation. Even when

18:20

I first proposed that topic to

18:22

my editor, it was like, well,

18:24

how does this really fit in?

18:26

But I had this fascinating conversation

18:28

with a couple of insect scientists

18:31

about Starship Troopers. And I was

18:33

like, clearly, you know, something like

18:35

Starship Troopers is totally made up

18:37

those bugs that they have this

18:39

gigantic bug. And I should

18:41

just jump in real quick for folks who maybe

18:43

haven't seen it. There's this group of like, I'll

18:46

say military astronauts who try to

18:48

colonize a planet for humans.

18:51

But they soon discover that there's this whole

18:55

hoard of massive insects living

18:58

in this honest planet. And they're not so

19:00

crazy about this idea. Yeah, you get

19:02

like these spider like things, you get

19:04

these beetle like things. And so I had

19:06

this conversation with these researchers and I was

19:09

like, clearly, this is all like made up.

19:11

There's not insects that like spit out like

19:13

fiery acid or anything. And they were like,

19:15

Oh, no, they exist on Earth.

19:18

Like, they're like, that's completely

19:20

inspired by actual things on Earth.

19:22

And so then I took the

19:24

conversation further. I'm like, well, could

19:26

they actually ever get to that

19:28

size? And so we had this

19:30

fascinating conversation about the right chemistry

19:32

and the right gravity that's needed

19:35

to have killer gigantic insects on

19:37

another planet. And I came out

19:39

of that conversation going like,

19:42

Oh, actually, these could totally exist. Like

19:44

it's not that far fetched, you know,

19:46

it's this ridiculous film. And you want

19:48

to believe that it's just equally

19:50

ridiculous science. But there's actually like really

19:52

fascinating stuff that teaches us so much

19:55

about life here on Earth, but also

19:57

how life could exist elsewhere in outer

19:59

space. And so that's what I really

20:01

love about, you know, all these different chapters

20:03

is getting to really have fun and explore

20:05

those topics. Yeah. Well,

20:08

thank you for bringing up exploring because before I let

20:10

you go, I have to ask and

20:12

bring us back to Antarctica here. This

20:15

was expedition number two. Do

20:17

you think a third one is in the cards? I

20:20

certainly hope so. You know, people

20:22

say no one ever goes to Antarctica twice.

20:25

Oh, you either go once

20:27

and you are like, I'm good. That

20:29

was great. I don't need to

20:31

do that again. Right. Bucket list item checked off. Right.

20:34

Totally. Or you're addicted and

20:36

you're going to keep going as much

20:38

as you can. And I absolutely want

20:41

to go back. The more

20:43

that I can help bridge that

20:45

gap of allowing people to be

20:47

explorers, whether or not they make

20:49

it physically to Antarctica, the better.

20:52

Hmm. Well, I

20:54

selfishly hope that you get to go again because

20:56

it's a delight to hear you talk about these

20:58

trips. The research that you're doing there, the filming

21:01

and what you're discovering along the way.

21:04

This conversation has been a total

21:06

joy. Thank you so much for chatting with me, Ariel. No,

21:09

thanks so much. I

21:11

was filmmaker and explorer Ariel Waldman

21:14

talking to producer Matthew Cloutier. Their

21:16

conversation was produced by Chow 2 and

21:19

edited by James Delahousie. Ariel's

21:21

film series, Antarctica Unearthed, is

21:23

out soon. Her new

21:25

book is called Out There, the science

21:27

behind sci-fi film and TV. And

21:30

if you like this, we've got more

21:32

bonus episodes just for you and sponsor

21:34

free listening when you become a plus

21:37

listener. Again, go to plus dot npr.org

21:39

or just check the show notes for

21:41

the link. Thank you so much for

21:44

supporting our show and public media. We've

21:46

got a new Ted Radio Hour coming to you

21:49

on Friday and a new bonus episode next week.

21:51

You're going to be there. I hope so. Thanks

21:53

for listening. Talk to you soon. Support

21:56

for NPR and the following message come

21:58

from The Economist. Their award-winning

22:00

podcast makes sense of what

22:02

matters. Tune into the world

22:05

with an Economist Podcasts Plus

22:07

subscription. Search Economist Podcasts

22:09

Plus and get your first month

22:11

free.