0:02

Tetra grammar to. I

0:23

was like to tell people you're not

0:25

running or walking around in walking or

0:27

running she's you're actually running or walking

0:30

around in horse riding boots. And

0:32

so this goes back to the middle ages. But.

0:35

It sinks with pop culture today. You

0:37

think about it instantly. A says they

0:39

say it So the Middle Ages we

0:42

had royalty. And. Military

0:44

that that rode horses right? That. So they're

0:46

like the heroes right? They are the pop

0:48

culture icons of the time and these guys

0:51

are riding horses. And they came up with

0:53

shoes specifically for stirrups. So stirrups had been

0:55

invented and you want to stay in the

0:57

stirrups. See you You have these shoes the

0:59

hold you in the stirrups and so what

1:02

they did is they may choose pointy because

1:04

human fi human feet are not point de

1:06

vue. feet are not pointy, their widest at

1:08

the end of the toes not. Why does

1:10

that the ball and then they have that.

1:13

he'll. You look at think of a typical to rescue and

1:15

that is there to hold you in that stir up. To.

1:17

Almost all shoes have some version

1:19

of the He'll ninety nine Percent

1:22

and the whole reason for the

1:24

He'll originally. Was. To keep your

1:26

foot in the stirrup. Precisely.

1:28

That's amazing. I never do that. So.

1:31

Yeah I'll have shown in a picture of

1:33

a of a horse riding do in a

1:35

stir up and and just explain to people

1:37

like what you're wearing came from this in

1:39

it's it's all about pop Culture. People.

1:42

On the streets of the time in

1:44

the Middle Ages. saw their heroes in

1:46

these boots and then they started making

1:48

boots for themselves or shoes for themselves

1:50

that mimicked what they saw their heroes

1:52

were in. just like we do today.

1:54

You know we see people on the

1:56

big screen or you know, on the

1:58

music stage wearing whatever. People want

2:00

to wear what their pop culture

2:02

icons were basically for their sports

2:04

stores. Most what? yeah still matters

2:06

any aspect of pop to basically.

2:08

And so then that proliferated and

2:10

in of the next thing you

2:12

know it's a couple centuries later

2:14

and people are walking around in

2:16

and horse ratings use the almost

2:18

in mass you know. and what

2:21

are the negative effects on foot

2:23

health care? Haven't been until fairly

2:25

recently that people wore shoes all

2:27

the time. you know, because this

2:29

was so uncomfortable. Previously and frankly still

2:31

is people just of know it sounds

2:33

bad as it was but the negative

2:35

effects are unbelievable and I see go

2:38

and speak to podiatrist and other sports

2:40

doctors and we get into this. and

2:42

if you look at the research we're

2:44

the billion people on the planet. The

2:47

don't Wear Modern says. There

2:49

and primitive sandals. A barefoot most with i'm. Basically.

2:53

Zero chronic conditions. And

2:56

it's a really stark contrast to

2:58

America. According to a Pm A

3:00

data the American Body of Medical

3:02

Association seventy three percent of American

3:04

adults report are keen. On.

3:06

Regular basis of yearly basis, so

3:09

almost three or four of us

3:11

are reporting. Our. Feet hurting

3:13

so that is probably the most base

3:15

answers your question but you know essentially

3:17

one thing we see that is ever

3:20

present his plan or fast Css what

3:22

we used to call planner for Situs

3:24

onions neuroma met at her soldier You

3:27

know any of those chronic for conditions

3:29

that are so common in the world

3:31

today are essentially nonexistent in these populations

3:33

of people that don't wear modern footwear

3:36

and were presented as the footwear is

3:38

there to protect our feet. When.

3:41

In reality it's to him exact opposite. Yeah.

3:44

I think you you hit on something t there

3:46

is. A. Great piece of footwear

3:48

should protect our feet and nothing more.

3:51

And the problem that most people don't realize

3:53

is that. Ninety. Nine percent

3:55

of all software out there deforms your

3:57

feet. You get out of bed every.

4:00

Running. Barefoot. Your toes, spread

4:02

your heel on the ground. You were born

4:04

this way. You come this way. This is

4:06

I am Human Rights. And then you put

4:08

a shoe on and ninety nine percent of

4:10

all shoes deform your foot out of it's

4:13

natural position. They've raised the hill, the crowd,

4:15

the toes together. They push up in the

4:17

arts because when the big target spent in

4:19

just a quarter inch and the heel gets

4:21

raised, even just a half inch, that essentially

4:24

renders your arts much weaker and less stable.

4:26

And so then your foot source to class.

4:28

and you need this thing called arch support.

4:31

Which is new to humanity. You.

4:33

Know we go back a couple hundred years

4:35

ago and and our support didn't exist and

4:37

we were fine without it. Now in a

4:39

ask almost anybody that oh I need our

4:42

support and it's like what can you go

4:44

walk on the beach barefoot without our support?

4:46

Oh yeah, do that Okay Can you go

4:48

garden in your backyard barefoot or a i

4:50

can be that about walk you know what

4:53

in the grass or your son. So.

4:55

When you need our support. Oh.

4:57

When I've had my shoes on the has

4:59

to have our support and frankly they're absolutely

5:01

right because they put their foot in a

5:03

shoe that then takes their foot out of

5:05

it's ability to stabilize itself and you have

5:08

to have arts when you have raised heel

5:10

and tapered so box you'll have to use

5:12

your feet are super strong but as the

5:14

deathly helpful so modern she's weekend and to

5:16

form the. Deform.

5:19

Destabilize. And weekend

5:21

Absolutely. And then from the foot.

5:24

Having those issues? What are the

5:26

upstream issues in the rest of

5:28

the body? If that happens to

5:30

your feet, Yeah. Masses

5:32

as a running codes and and

5:34

biomechanics guy, this is. This is

5:36

where it gets really interesting. The

5:38

statistically speaking, the number one way

5:40

to prevent running injuries is not

5:42

what anybody would think. it's actually.

5:45

To. Go through for cycling. Bronco. And

5:48

people might think to that sizzle, how

5:50

is that and permit running injuries And

5:52

reality is your feeder landing gear. And

5:55

when your feet land right and can

5:57

stabilize and control at the ground level,

6:00

That then takes pressure off of

6:02

everything else is that's not happening

6:04

right when your foot hits the

6:06

ground. And it's not able

6:08

to have the right amount of strength,

6:10

is not able to control, not able

6:12

to stabilize, then all that those forces

6:14

and we're talking in a joint impacts

6:16

sheer forces, joint towards. All this stuff

6:18

isn't translated further up the kinetic seen

6:20

until it hits a weak link basically

6:22

and that forever on is different but

6:24

for most people it's can be since

6:26

can be nice to be censored, can

6:28

be lower back and so what? The

6:30

foot can't control at ground level then

6:32

gets passed on up the chain and

6:35

it's interesting as we again look at

6:37

these. Billion people on the planet that don't

6:39

wear shoes. They have a far lower incidence

6:41

of joint issues as well and you know

6:43

people say oh he ever these people are

6:45

overweight and as well there's love them who

6:47

are in a we look at people in

6:50

Poland is an island sewer animal at com

6:52

or rape other giant humans is actually how

6:54

I got on this by the with tell

6:56

me tell me about as part of it

6:58

so if you get on it is so

7:00

my journey We open shoe store when I

7:03

was nine. And by the time

7:05

I'm eighteen heading off to college, you

7:07

know I realize that most everybody comes

7:09

in to buy shoes because something hurts

7:11

who your parents runners as well. Yeah,

7:14

so my my mom's a five time

7:16

Olympic trials qualifier and and one time

7:18

world record holder in the Ha and

7:20

my dad is also an elite marathon

7:23

runner and health state records for ultra

7:25

marathon distances as well and both of

7:27

them came from sedentary, non active families.

7:29

In fact, we're a family reunion and

7:32

people are always like. Who.

7:34

Were the skinny people? As

7:36

ask if we just stick out like a

7:38

sore thumb, right? Yeah, I have a lot

7:40

of people say that oh, you're just genetically

7:43

legs, you know, bread to do this basically.

7:45

And my dad was actually a a collegiate

7:47

football player and baseball player drafted to play

7:49

pro baseball with the Angels. so I don't

7:51

know that there was a lot of distance,

7:53

running, prowess, or background right? So newegg I

7:55

get to heading off to college and I'm

7:57

like I want to start the stuff because

7:59

most of it he comes in because something

8:01

hurts. I want to fix that. I want

8:03

to be better at making that better for

8:05

them. I want to be able to help

8:07

them and frankly half of them are coming

8:10

in. They've already been to the doctor or

8:12

several doctors and they're like my doctor has

8:14

been able to help me the show. The

8:16

custom orthotics in the garbage can enter just

8:18

kind of like what a gun you know

8:20

And so I want to be really good

8:22

at helping these people. And part of my

8:24

collegiate journey took me to the North Shore

8:26

of a live in Hawaii and I spent

8:28

two years. They're starting with this finish. Bio

8:31

Mechanics exercise scientist names York Echo Conan and

8:33

he had actually developed this toast during sinning

8:35

machine that I had been using at my

8:37

house since I was a kid because my

8:40

dad had read studies that one of the

8:42

biggest difference between African runners in the American

8:44

runners was that the Afc and runners had

8:46

much greater foot until strings and so I

8:49

had this weightlifting machine for my toes and

8:51

I find out this guy you know out

8:53

in Hawaii in was one of the creators

8:55

of it and so like eight and of

8:58

going out the study with him but well

9:00

it is there a. You. Know

9:02

I had grown up my whole life been

9:04

conditioned by the shoe in the streets running

9:06

shoe. Employees. Don't get any

9:08

training really except from sue companies. So

9:10

is your with me? It's not running,

9:13

it's propaganda. I would say there's like

9:15

it's like three percent science, ninety seven

9:17

percent B S, you know and I

9:20

was already questioning it. Don't get me

9:22

wrong and I had started wearing the

9:24

zebra five fingers which you. May

9:27

be aware of the Barefoot Sol shoes they.

9:29

They had just hit the market and we

9:31

were the first running she saw in the

9:33

country to carry them answer selling them. To.

9:35

This is the place and I had out

9:38

of way and I'm surrounded by you giant

9:40

humans who has flat feet which I've been

9:42

told by every shoe company since I was

9:44

knee height or grasshopper is horrible they prone

9:47

eight like crazy meaning their feet role in

9:49

which again has been told they have received

9:51

company and world that this a terrible and

9:53

they have a solution for it and then

9:56

you know most of them way quite a

9:58

bit and isn't kind of observer. When

10:00

I first get their wow I've been

10:02

sent to help these people you know

10:05

But as I get to know I'm

10:07

closer I'd come in I'm Ikea to

10:09

tell me about your feet, lights and.

10:12

The just sick bro about my faith. And

10:15

my book tell me you know they hurt

10:17

right? I mean your you're huge guy is

10:19

the role in like crazy their flat you

10:21

got no arts as you got slapped seedlings

10:23

you know if he probably her eyes. This

10:25

is why do like Avenue Innocence as will

10:27

kill us. I'd love to help you and

10:29

and they will. I'll just look at me

10:31

like. Promising. To her in only

10:33

Oh come on like it's okay I'm here

10:35

now These I see the her bra is

10:38

over us and as line is across the

10:40

board you know it's like it's just the

10:42

complete opposite of everything I've ever been told

10:44

by every shoe company and every training meeting

10:46

at ever been to San I had read

10:49

some of the stars. I was already kind

10:51

of into it and that was just kind

10:53

of like jump off point where was like

10:55

okay you're serious about this Can that I

10:57

really want to help people I can do

10:59

it through this lens of to complete garbage

11:02

that. I have been taught you know for

11:04

my entire life of to this point and

11:06

so I eventually after a couple years in

11:08

Hawaii and at night ended up running collegially

11:10

out there for a couple years I am

11:13

I would run hour and a half on

11:15

the beach barefoot. I'd never been healthier in

11:17

my life that go hammer a mountain, come

11:19

down, run hard, run on the beach and

11:21

then go so cameo smuggle serve you know

11:24

and just let that salt water do with

11:26

ceiling thing. That and I come back to

11:28

the to the shoe store and all sudden

11:30

it's like wow. How

11:33

believe anything we sell? At

11:36

replace to piss afghan Alec as

11:38

an illness and then what was

11:40

the first? Did you start making

11:42

samples of healthy? She's. Yeah,

11:45

so shortly after I got back

11:47

you are a never found that

11:49

barefoot style. Seems like the five

11:52

fingers. Were a solution

11:54

for the average person for long distance

11:56

running on heart's not man made surfaces.

11:58

The argument is. Hey, humans

12:01

throughout the aeons have run

12:03

around barefoot. But

12:05

throughout the eons we didn't have

12:07

conquered enough. And so my thought

12:10

was like will want to simulate

12:12

running barefoot on a natural surface

12:14

so most natural surfaces are softer

12:16

than concrete. Yes, They are

12:19

and it's not even as much the softness

12:21

it is. it's the variability to you know

12:23

and I think this is yours we get

12:25

into. like help. Further up the kinetic seen

12:27

variability. Such a massive thing that I liked

12:30

it. On the people like ill people think

12:32

soft as can sell their issues with the

12:34

is tracks and treadmills cause more injuries than

12:36

any other running surface out there. So

12:39

you want something that has natural shape?

12:41

yeah Nasa safe unevenness and in my

12:44

opinion that is one of the biggest

12:46

keys to you know remaining injury free

12:48

whether that's is a runner's just as

12:50

a human as part of an exercise

12:53

science degree we we do a bunch

12:55

of anatomy staff and when you really

12:57

look at the muscle stuff or the

12:59

human body it is built to emulate

13:02

over uneven ground that are a whole

13:04

muscle structure is set up and what

13:06

happens when we walk on a perfectly

13:09

consistent. Even surface even if it's soft

13:11

is every step is the same. Certain

13:13

muscles get use and another muscles don't

13:15

and we develop these imbalances that then

13:17

our cars are sets, are low back,

13:19

our knees, etc. The hurt the something

13:21

to really think about in your daily

13:23

life is spend as much time as

13:25

possible on on the ground or just

13:27

go out your way to do it

13:29

from even if I'm running down the

13:31

sidewalk I make a point to step

13:33

off on the curb some hit still.

13:35

Anything that makes her sit still is

13:37

doing what's your body has been designed.

13:39

To do for eons. And

13:42

I'll make a point. you know if I see a

13:44

treat him and I don't run around the tree a

13:46

duck under it you know I lean one way or

13:48

the other to go around three Anything like that can

13:50

make it had still anything I see to step up

13:52

honor of step off of I went to make a

13:54

point to do that walking running it of matter and

13:56

plus it just makes life more playful and will like

13:59

of more playful life. The better. So you

14:01

found out that the five fingers were

14:03

not the solution for everybody. So what

14:05

did you do next? Yeah, we summers

14:07

to be like. A great solution for

14:09

foot strengthening. And. To

14:11

use in smaller amounts there the time

14:13

for know general lifestyle but you know

14:15

the say during high impact activity or

14:18

in my case I was training for

14:20

fifty mile race in the rocky mountains

14:22

over tactical terrain. Musharraf rocks. It's just

14:24

not gonna fly. it's in fact is

14:27

dangerous. New profit break something. And

14:29

so what really happened is that at the

14:31

shop we serve filming people and week do

14:33

this thing. My dad, my dad stories and

14:36

credible on t he blew his knee out

14:38

playing football right at the end of his

14:40

career and this is why he didn't end

14:42

up playing pro baseball. And

14:45

he. Then got

14:47

dares by his roommates dad.

14:50

Dare to both to go do this thing.

14:53

You know he's like. Suits.

14:55

Weightlifter always been great at anything he

14:57

had done and ah this this remains

14:59

Dad says in like a i'm gonna

15:01

send you a postcard and this post

15:03

part comes in the mail it says

15:05

you're real manual. Do this you know

15:07

and they can with each other. Legs.

15:09

Hey, that's what the postcard or Las

15:12

Vegas Marathon And it's like in two

15:14

months of my dazzling five nine, two

15:16

hundred and forty pounds to totally Jack

15:18

Vs. and because his be blues near

15:21

playing football. we're talking unhappy triad so

15:23

no meniscus, bone on bones as grinding

15:25

doctors told him he'd never run again.

15:28

he never walk normal. That's been true

15:30

to this day. My dad walks with

15:32

a limp and he's almost an inch

15:34

shorter on that site as well and

15:37

goes out and residue. This marathon finishes.

15:40

You know he's like the last. At

15:42

the very very very back and really

15:44

pissed him off for the first time

15:46

in life. he really sucked at something

15:48

that he'd actually been a lot of

15:51

effort into. and on top of that

15:53

just excruciating meeting and just over and

15:55

over does this if you know the

15:57

type A personality. Just back added a

16:00

few weeks later, massive failure again over

16:02

and over and he eventually sees. A

16:05

group of African you know, Kenyan runners running

16:07

and these guys dominate Distance running is if

16:09

you know anything about distance running and he's

16:11

like oh my gosh, I crashed on the

16:13

road. We. All crash summer of

16:15

those guys float. You. Know and

16:17

I know do something called float running and

16:20

make the slope run harness for this this

16:22

purpose better is like okay float are better

16:24

for taught myself to run like them. Money.

16:27

Wouldn't hurt so bad. Answer: Necessity

16:29

does, and you stafford Seven years

16:31

later, one hundred and ten pounds

16:33

lighter and he wins the Say George

16:35

Marathon in two hours and twenty

16:37

two. Unbelievable and gets ranked as

16:39

high as seventeen to the contrary I'm

16:41

to at the time. so pretty

16:43

cool to tell me about the

16:45

float running. What is float running so

16:48

slow running? His I method for

16:50

making running techniques simple and reality

16:52

is. Most. Everybody. In.

16:54

Any other sport gets all sorts of

16:56

training and they spend most of their

16:58

time on technique. See think shooting a

17:00

shot, you passing the ball there's there's

17:02

a certain way you do this. Throwing

17:04

a football, you're cheating soccer. mother says

17:06

technique everywhere. Swimming, Running as the only

17:08

sport where we just tell people they

17:10

take good luck out there and I

17:12

just like elected stream at For Civil

17:14

Imagine is your first swim. Practice was

17:16

like your first as cross country track

17:18

practice and I'll tell you how. My

17:20

first day of cross country practice went

17:23

and I had a great. Shots don't

17:25

get me wrong but it was Hey

17:27

guys welcome The class was take role

17:29

okay Gray in own housekeeping items okay

17:31

I was go for run you know

17:33

of the in thirty minutes. Okay,

17:36

now we've listed as that. the swimming

17:38

pool. Okay, just jumped and good luck

17:40

to thirty minutes. Six dead people. You

17:42

know literally that people are at. This

17:45

is the only sport where we do

17:47

this and it's It's absurd and the

17:49

problem is the so much conflicting information

17:51

out there on running techniques and does

17:53

not as much sciences we'd like there

17:55

to be. And what is there is

17:58

pretty solid, but it's shouted down. By

18:00

the money of the shoe companies and

18:02

overwhelmingly most you companies to tell you

18:04

oh, just go run however you want

18:07

You know it. Just dear saying it

18:09

says you're wearing the shoes here for

18:11

ten and your pursues you're fine. Like

18:13

you know, everybody has their own way

18:16

of running and document on there's some

18:18

truth to that to a degree but

18:20

float running as my way of taking

18:22

it and making a simple so for

18:25

basic running technique. We're not talking like

18:27

super and deaths and know stuff but.

18:30

For most people, they need the basics. And.

18:32

It's. Every method out there that I

18:35

know isn't too complicated. And so

18:37

flip running as way of helping

18:39

people master the basics of running

18:41

testing very very quickly. And the

18:43

reason I do this or this

18:45

harness here is it just sucks

18:47

in underneath the armpits and exceeds

18:49

your arms and your posture into

18:51

the sun. And what people don't

18:53

you know. Here's another thing that

18:55

people don't realize about running is

18:57

that is largely driven by your

18:59

posture norms. So and the thing

19:01

I discovered over and over teaching

19:03

running technique in a night in

19:05

night out from one on one

19:07

tude massive groups of people you

19:09

know, hundreds of people is that

19:11

if we can get people to

19:13

focus on keeping their elbow bat

19:15

and not letting their elbow comfort

19:17

of their sets, everything just works.

19:19

And we're talking their cadence improves.

19:21

Their foot lands underneath a bent

19:23

knee underneath a backward traveling way.

19:25

the way we want it to

19:27

their posture will be greater. airway

19:29

will open. I mean we can

19:31

almost to still down. you know,

19:33

Two hours of running technique class

19:35

into a. Good. Your elbows back.

19:38

Get those chicken wings as I like to

19:40

sit. and if you get your elbow back,

19:42

your passers can be good. If that's gonna

19:44

land where it's supposed to, you're taking some,

19:46

can be higher like it needs to be

19:49

and everything just is so smooth and and

19:51

nice. And what the flow around harness does

19:53

is it provides tactile feedback So you're not

19:55

just thinking you're doing it right, it's letting

19:58

you know. You. Know you're doing. Right

20:00

or hey you're not doing the right. I'm

20:02

giving you a card that saying you're coming

20:04

too far across her Midland or your you

20:06

left side is going one way and you're

20:08

right side isn't or you're punting too far

20:10

for with your arms or whatever and yeah

20:13

I would say ninety plus per cent of

20:15

people need that tackles and even meet somebody

20:17

who's of running, technique, lessons and you know.

20:19

breakdown Since I was age eight and been

20:21

using devices along these lines and says it's

20:23

still really helpful and I'll get out on

20:25

around and or race and and use it

20:27

and I'm still picking up saying oh yeah.

20:30

From slipping their little bit. El

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22:01

L M M

22:03

T. When.

22:11

Did you realize that times where such a

22:13

key part? I.

22:16

Would say probably twelve years ago which

22:18

is almost at the exact same time

22:20

he started Ultra when we got an

22:22

altar. There's a lot of focus on

22:24

barefoot in a lot of focus on

22:26

foot strike and I would say now

22:28

you know that the biggest single I

22:30

tell people don't focus on for strike

22:32

and back then or everything from the

22:34

media was like a just to stop

22:36

heels taking everything will get better you

22:38

know and really is a lot of

22:40

people stop till searching and they serve

22:42

forfeit striking you're doing something difference and

22:44

everything else was still wrong. And

22:46

so the just got different injuries.

22:49

You just for you just have to force

22:52

offers you know maybe the knees and you

22:54

placed on the seat. and so is what

22:56

we saw a ton of foot injuries. So

22:58

member of the The Beginning of Ultra, when

23:00

did you realize you're gonna start a shoe

23:02

company as opposed to solving the problem of.

23:04

Shoes. for you to wear or your friends to where.

23:09

It is about a year and a

23:11

half process of coming to. Since.

23:13

That realization that that you pointed

23:16

out there is originally ulcer was

23:18

way to help our customers. That

23:20

are some. And. So we

23:22

were taking traditional shoes and we were

23:25

cutting the heavy elevated he'll out of

23:27

the back of the shoe and we're

23:29

leveling the shoe out front to back

23:31

and we were wait balancing at front

23:33

to back and we were doing this

23:36

because of my dad's experience. He attributed

23:38

all his success as a runner to

23:40

learning to run like a tendon. This

23:42

better running technique, right? and Kenyans learn

23:44

to run barefoot. Correct. Yes,

23:47

they they developed great technique from a young age

23:49

and what you really develop that technique and foot

23:51

strength then you can kind of put on whatever

23:53

you want The doesn't matter, you can overcome it,

23:55

right? And this was kind of a place where

23:58

you're coming from. except we're dealing with the. The

24:00

from everybody in America grows up wearing shoes. They

24:02

have wifi and we have to reverse engineer at

24:04

right? Just go back and read, teach them how

24:06

to run well and so when people would come

24:09

into our shop we would then seats in the

24:11

lessons on how to render. And

24:13

in our I had this realization watching on

24:15

a treadmill would watch people run barefoot or

24:18

inside singers and they look great and in

24:20

that same person thirty seconds later in the

24:22

very soon as we're selling them look like

24:24

crap and we just have to start of

24:27

like oh man and I remember in oh

24:29

my dad lives in his account for helping

24:31

people here. And

24:33

again that's it. That's a really

24:35

bad place to be in. this

24:38

again is pretty soon as are

24:40

coming back from Hawaii and like

24:42

yeah it's pretty rough sea started

24:44

by shavings shoes like and just

24:46

modifying them so that they would

24:48

perform better. Yeah. Because I

24:51

saw a video and by looking at the

24:53

snacks of the Susan Way and that every

24:55

soon our store with She'll Heavy. And

24:58

he'll heists. None of these specs were published back

25:00

then. You know now we have a term for

25:02

it. Draft that was a termite, invented the term

25:04

Zero Drop. Again, you know what am I in

25:06

my terms that everyone uses now. But at the

25:09

time it was like wow, she's really heavy in

25:11

the owner of Second The Hill and we come

25:13

to find out basically every shoes twice as thick

25:15

in the hills isn't forfeit. This is

25:17

how they're built. If it's a twelve millimeter

25:19

forefoot to twenty four millimeter he'll it's ten

25:22

millimeter forefoot for twenty millimeters you. That's just

25:24

how the cushioning your was built in the

25:26

shoe and what we saw as as people's

25:28

foot swings out in front of their body

25:30

that cause of the hill to drop and

25:33

in violent as what we call dorset flexing

25:35

so their their toes pop up, their shield

25:37

drops down and then because the hills thicker

25:39

the foot cats of the ground earlier so

25:41

people literally landing inches more out in front

25:44

of their body than they were without a

25:46

C long. So we're talking

25:48

in or fundamental movement that humans have

25:50

done throughout all aeons has now been

25:52

disrupted not by millimeters, not by centimeters,

25:55

but by inches. And we wonder why

25:57

Running which is a non contact sport.

26:00

The seventy three percent injury rate, you

26:02

know. Plus you know, depending on the

26:04

study sixty to ninety percent yearly it's

26:06

terrible for it. A sport with no

26:08

contact and so did this with you.

26:11

You said his, I got lucky she

26:13

says it will. What if you would

26:15

if we took a traditional nana kissing

26:17

that still had enough protection to simulate

26:20

running barefoot on a natural surface. While.

26:22

You're on concrete or grass or in my

26:25

case trail running on rocky ground. We have

26:27

a moderate amount of protection there. And.

26:30

What if we get the she to wait balance front to back?

26:33

What will happen? And. So that's when

26:35

I took first their shoes into my toaster

26:37

oven in a little mini oven and I

26:39

I talked to my dad until the monitors

26:41

and he's again that makes to downstairs where

26:43

mom can smell it. And

26:46

I put the fair Susan in the many

26:48

oven and you know might have like the

26:50

guy. he's doing the stuff all the time,

26:52

always modifying she storing up. he's working for

26:54

Nike when I was born sock any most

26:56

of my childhood modifying susan system for the

26:59

happened to our house and either get to

27:01

seventy five, wait till the glue bubbles and

27:03

I'm like okay cool. So be

27:05

thirty five. I wait a little bit long melt

27:07

the laces note all the tp you on the

27:09

upper I mean it's it's it's frankenstein as they

27:11

come right in a just looks terrible but i

27:14

take this you out name of riff the also

27:16

off the rubber in are just. Pull.

27:18

The rubber off the Psu told a

27:20

soul. Now I put some slabs of

27:23

weight balance flat song and Stanko foam

27:25

an ugly the rubber back on. And.

27:29

I. Go for him! And for

27:31

the first time in my life, I'm running down the road.

27:33

but I feel like I'm running barefoot on the grass. Or

27:36

barefoot on the beach is just that. is

27:38

that. Freedom as you've ever unbearable on the

27:41

beach or bears on the grassy know this

27:43

like freedom that comes with it is just.

27:45

it's kind of a glorious something and I

27:47

remember just thinking like this is amazing you

27:50

know and let's get back and test it.

27:52

So it was. Go video it in Slow

27:54

motion. Slow motion video had just become available

27:57

to like not rich people And sure enough

27:59

the video. Pretty pretty clear that it

28:01

was, it was doing it's job in

28:03

a we get that elevated heavy he'll

28:05

out of the equation and kissing start

28:07

to happen. How many of those modified

28:09

pair of shoes did you make? So

28:11

just a couple that way. And then

28:13

I took a fleet to a guy

28:15

that ran rivers on the Grand Canyon

28:17

with my Dad the owners you color

28:20

shop nearby, Robert Glazer of Those Shoemaker

28:22

and I explained to him what I

28:24

wanted to do and he's what I

28:26

mean. He said let's. And he's

28:28

like as a third generation shoemaker certified to

28:30

door first and he said ah i usually

28:32

add things to cease not take things away

28:35

and he said why would you want to

28:37

do this and i explain the bio mechanics

28:39

of it and how it's going to street

28:41

six your posture and and everything else and

28:43

and changes the way walked into the way

28:46

you run back to more natural way and

28:48

he's their second his head give me this

28:50

look him as like a man and his

28:52

i've well. As

28:55

your makes a lot of sense cysts and

28:57

so he ends up modern. The sue for

28:59

me and I had brought him these original

29:01

like nineteen eighty four sock in each as

29:03

originals that has two layers of little you

29:05

know they have one slot along the bottom

29:07

and there's a second slab from from the

29:09

He'll to the arts and then drops down

29:11

to the forfeit and I just simply says

29:13

he can you take the second slab out

29:15

here so they're just level front to back

29:17

and then we'll see from to wait no

29:19

front to back and he like yeah secretion

29:21

pull that off and so we did about

29:23

two dozen pair then. Oh, and

29:25

we test them on our staff at

29:28

the store. And nineteen or twenty love.

29:30

This is a while ninety five percent.

29:32

that's pretty good rate. legend will see

29:34

never else. and and then somehow. A

29:38

Customers. And it up in a pair. It

29:40

might have been me a bit in

29:43

a guy comes in knee problems for

29:45

ever. Just had been through the

29:47

wringer, tried everything and he's like what are

29:49

you wearing because I'm wearing Frankenstein She's you

29:51

known as well which are to get the

29:53

toes the spread out you know is when we

29:55

skip the laces in the front half of

29:57

the Psu in the morning. Something that tells

29:59

me. Your it been barefoot on a natural

30:01

surfaces and you know it Seems to improve my

30:03

running technique as well and he's like, well, I've

30:06

tried everything else, Let me try. And

30:08

is that okay? Fine so man goes around, he's

30:10

gonna while and I have this like. To.

30:13

Check my shoes. gonna. Move to discuss

30:15

occasionally happens with his attitudes toward like

30:17

you know and it's a bad idea

30:19

when you're dealing with with us. We're

30:21

all pretty fast people that worked at

30:23

the south and like didn't on a

30:25

long time like do check my shoes

30:27

and he eventually comes back in and

30:29

he said I'll take him and I'm

30:31

just like man enough for sale Like

30:33

these are Frankenstein shoes and at the

30:35

time we we had him call them

30:37

Zero Drops is recalling I'm like modified

30:39

you know, whatever and Jazzy Zeroes modified

30:41

says his ears and is able Anita

30:43

Per. Can you make me one? So make

30:46

this guy pair and and swearing to secrecy

30:48

gorilla get sued by the shoe companies. You

30:50

know it's like we're taking their shoe and

30:52

modifying and now we're past the Statue of

30:54

Limitations Douglas. But. It's

30:56

just like don't tell anybody, Do what happens

30:58

when you tell people not to tell people

31:00

things Word spreads. Yeah, exactly. So we didn't

31:02

think about this of the time that next

31:04

thing I know it's like a few weeks

31:06

later in the Sky Companies whose sole job

31:08

after Zeus and I'm like order on this

31:10

the earth stood still like. Year

31:13

That was me. Sorry. His looks.

31:15

It means that so many parents to

31:17

another guy forever his knees most are

31:19

now they're so again so I want

31:21

some and se you know it's like

31:23

taken off. What? Like wildfire? We

31:26

saw Thousand Pair. Wow. year just about

31:28

a thousand parent a year of these

31:30

modified shoes were still are literally taking

31:32

a brand new pair of shoes. They're

31:34

paying full price. Then they're paying another

31:36

twenty to fifty bucks to have the

31:38

cobbler. To. Come out him up

31:41

and take them apart. Level him out. Wait

31:43

Melanson and as the same time we're we're

31:45

sonam some people another size bigger and we're

31:47

skipping the laces in the front half to

31:49

attempt somehow to get their toes to to

31:51

get in the game a little bit more.

31:53

So this is the journey. And back to

31:55

your question. When did you know you had

31:57

starts? You company said this point. Initially

31:59

them. No service you company and we

32:01

had great contacts a shoe companies and we

32:04

have this research now. We had all this

32:06

data because we were actually hang people. Ten

32:08

bucks to bring back survey after six weeks

32:10

and tell us what happened to to get

32:13

better. Did he get worse? What hurts more?

32:15

what hurts less you know what is using

32:17

more was using less muscular. you know where

32:19

you getting more sort cetera me new name.

32:22

it's twenty five questions and he would doing

32:24

this not for commercial reasons but because you

32:26

want to know what worked. Yeah you're not

32:28

scared like. Sick of so

32:31

here? Craft actually cared less. Does

32:33

it say I'm doing market research

32:35

for the market? You were doing

32:37

market research to understand what actually

32:39

works. Yet. Won't keep in

32:41

mind that this is a more time consuming

32:43

process or se in own net worth of

32:45

losing money on the whole thing because we're

32:47

spending more time trying to fit people is

32:49

complicating everything. But. We're all

32:52

super stoked about it because we

32:54

can tell it's making a difference

32:56

and we're fixing people And results

32:58

were getting our off the charts

33:00

compared to anything we've ever seen

33:02

and we're seeing like ninety plus

33:04

percent success rate with your typical

33:06

running injury. So and the surveys

33:08

came back really five areas that

33:10

were just you know, incredibly successful.

33:12

Controversial says what is the gop

33:14

on for sinus typical he'll take

33:16

that people get since once runners

33:18

knee I T band and lower

33:20

back issues and. Tools issues are

33:22

not running things you know, planner fasciitis

33:24

and lower back issues are not in

33:26

of those are everybody deals with that

33:28

kind of stuff and we've got people

33:30

going in and modifying every pair she's

33:32

they own. After a little bit they're

33:34

taking their own closet and and saying

33:36

expand my toolbox Inaugurate of the hill

33:39

Ovation way down the suit. And

33:41

so we've got the data know

33:43

and so we start teaching it

33:46

to our contacts and the shoe

33:48

industry. and. Basically. Getting

33:50

laughs. Asked. The street and

33:53

know and ridiculed and he noticed lots

33:55

of knows across the board members like

33:57

okay so let me get this straight.

33:59

we know. The people are getting. Their

34:02

feeling better and or less injured

34:04

you know, and you don't care.

34:07

You know? I think now I look at

34:09

a little bit more compassionately because I understand

34:11

like stocks and like shareholders and stuff. But

34:13

the answer got across the boards. The get

34:16

we can't go there, you know and a

34:18

lot of it honestly was. We have our

34:20

dedicated fan base who likes the she's we

34:22

make now and we don't care that you're

34:24

making something better. We got our people and

34:26

if you understand innovation theory, you know the

34:28

South is how it works with every innovation

34:30

in. Every. Class Author:

34:32

Basically something new and better comes

34:34

along and it eventually wife's what

34:37

was that after Odd off the

34:39

face of the planet because they

34:41

won't change for that sort of

34:43

the time. like I've remember just

34:45

being so distraught and so frustrated

34:47

that we're doing some it was

34:49

really helping people is incredibly attractive

34:51

and all the shoe companies as

34:53

I grew up. Ill darn

34:55

near worshipping. Didn't give a crap and

34:57

that was really hard for me at

34:59

the time and so is during this

35:02

time in of the scan a year.

35:04

long legs. Sentence.

35:06

Very slow acceptance that like.

35:09

Oh. My have to do this but the

35:11

from a doing it is. After.

35:14

That point we'd have the same seven

35:16

running shoe Company since the beginning and

35:18

running see time. Basically the quickest way

35:20

to go. Homeless will succeed company in

35:22

early start running shoe company You don't

35:24

make it, you spend millions. Ego almost

35:26

like this is. it's the perfect snacks,

35:28

the pattern rights and what happened is

35:30

is. on my birthday my cousin Jeremy

35:32

comes over to my house and. And

35:35

I say to and like can tell him

35:37

what I'm doing his eyeballs. I'm running my

35:39

five years because my knees hurt like prove

35:41

it. To go

35:43

for run and like they're given

35:45

them have that modified version of

35:47

Zeus and. He's blown away

35:49

and we get to turn around. Point: I'm

35:51

like okay put regular, she's back on. we

35:53

were back and now is nice. Killing him

35:55

and he is. If we have to do

35:57

this, we're the Macys. Things my like. Yeah,

36:00

Quickest way to go homeless you know

36:02

he's at all Do everything you use,

36:04

design, cool shoes, do bio mechanics and

36:06

products and I'll do everything all find

36:08

the people, find the contacts, manufacturing all

36:10

that and like okay whatever else you

36:12

know is that what happened. I don't

36:14

even know how you start something like

36:16

this, neither did I feel so I

36:18

mean so basically what happened is initially

36:21

he has me make him appear that

36:23

he he can second section you can

36:25

be real pair. And. I'm like

36:27

what you mean real per he's absolutely no not me by

36:29

you and like. Will. They don't

36:31

exist. And. He's like you mean

36:33

to tell me there's no running shoes

36:35

on the market that are safe like

36:38

seat. And teacher footing barefoot position.

36:40

Don't have this elevated Zealand. And

36:42

as like known his it that's preposterous. Like

36:44

that's absolutely absurd. I don't believe you, you

36:46

know and as they go low. but I

36:48

know I just managed to system. And

36:51

and I go do the research masks.

36:54

And so my cousin Jeremy how that

36:56

he does the research. He comes back

36:58

me thinking you're right, they don't exist

37:00

As crazy as again is Chrissie and

37:02

so monsters are he finds these guys.

37:04

The find These guys that than find

37:06

us and we're talking X, Nike and

37:08

Adidas development executives and the head of

37:10

the kitchen at the Nike and Nike.

37:12

Their Belts Concepts team had of development deal

37:14

the first guy to ever do tad computer

37:16

I made design pursues. These guys had this

37:19

rapid prototyping group and they were like hey

37:21

we thought about doing what you're doing the

37:23

we don't really have a marketing story and

37:25

you do you know what you're running back

37:27

around and and all the stuff. So let's

37:29

get together. We meet with these guys in

37:32

on it next thing we're now we're a

37:34

million dollars in debt and her and today

37:36

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started today. Tell.

39:11

Me about the story of the growth of the company.

39:13

Yeah. So ultra ego is

39:16

probably worth. Between

39:18

five hundred million in a billion dollars.

39:20

Today it all started with the nothing

39:22

a thousand years old is it Now

39:24

when they distort. I started hacking season

39:26

two thousand eight and we have for

39:28

she's on the market and Twenty eleven.

39:30

So we're looking at almost thirteen years

39:33

now and we did like one point

39:35

three million your one when you started.

39:37

Did you just have one model? Yes

39:39

We sort of with his mother called

39:41

the Instincts isn't just have a road

39:43

running in those you can cross over

39:45

Sue moderate cousin again to simulate running

39:47

barefoot. Or natural terrain. I think you

39:49

have a pair of Escalante Madison. And

39:52

theist wants a and the line. Now as

39:54

for the closest thing to what the instinct

39:56

was back then, instinct was probably a little

39:58

bit more. a little more. The way we

40:00

played a little bit but very very similar

40:03

and then we built a loan Peak which

40:05

is you know has been the number one

40:07

trail soon. America repeatedly and is a is

40:09

a household name can assure you that still

40:12

exists today That came out November So six

40:14

seven eight months after the and Six and

40:16

we also built as you call the Adam

40:18

and Eve than men's and women's version. These

40:20

were Barefoot Celsius. Similar. To

40:23

Five fingers this without little pockets and

40:25

that was kind of the initial line

40:27

of that. For sheer we need, I

40:30

started. No one was doing either Zero

40:32

drop or naturals. Wide toolbox running shoes

40:34

not with any cousins. Yeah yeah

40:36

and and really it was just I

40:39

fingers. So we had the he of

40:41

the five toes use about the same

40:43

time we lost some of the minimal

40:45

issues came on. those were non christians

40:47

barefoot style shoes. Most did not have

40:49

an appropriate to last what I call

40:51

foot shaped toolbox but some kind of

40:54

did after that you know a recently

40:56

that first year were they're pretty good

40:58

running see stores and every like well

41:00

what's with the birth of sell shoes

41:02

with cushioning or what's with the running

41:04

shoes without the heel and. With the

41:06

big clown shape to box of it

41:08

we just we were trading category because

41:11

simply didn't exist at all and I'm

41:13

a big believer in doing this. Is

41:15

like Yoda creates and in the people

41:17

don't even know they need. you know

41:19

you're you and create a solution that

41:21

is so good if you'd like. Wow

41:23

I never thought of them for so

41:25

we've always been very anti trend. I

41:27

always had a philosophy and you know,

41:29

let's create a trend basically and now

41:31

you know I'm not an ulcer anymore.

41:33

it's a publicly traded company and you

41:35

know that philosophy. May or may not

41:37

you know exists into the future. Being a

41:39

public li trade company, probably not, but that

41:41

was always kind of the mindset from the

41:43

get go. He. I wanted to

41:45

talk to you because when I got the

41:48

shoes. I. Never felt comfortable shoes before

41:50

my life. And. It's just

41:52

a radical experience to feel something that

41:54

feels like it belongs on your side

41:56

as opposed to all the shoes that

41:58

don't know. I. The Santa My

42:01

goal was always like. This.

42:03

Disappear. When did

42:05

the book Born to Run come out during

42:07

your story? So Born to Run came out

42:09

just as I was like go in Hawaii

42:11

and Born to Run hit. So Born to

42:13

Run had been a thing for a couple

42:15

years before I started hacking up shoes and

42:17

we had been selling the Five fingers at

42:19

our store for a couple years and we

42:22

knew they were a great tool. We also

42:24

just knew the average person can handle on

42:26

and they weren't practical for hard, flat, manmade

42:28

surfaces. They were practical for technical trail and

42:30

so that was kind of the frame but

42:32

border. A definite build a foundation and

42:34

hot spring and awareness there And and

42:36

in I saw talk To Christmas to

42:38

go to. This day we get along

42:41

so I love going to runs Interesting.

42:43

I never, I don't think I've ever

42:45

read a book. I certainly

42:47

never read a book about running before, but I

42:49

don't think I read any book about any sport

42:51

before discuss. I'm not interested in a friend of

42:53

my to to gotta read this book. I read

42:55

the book. It made me cry. It

42:58

was beautiful. Yep! Amazing

43:01

book! Amazing that yeah and

43:03

I think I think I wanna decreed

43:05

that experience the people had. Reading

43:08

Born to Run. Ensue. Form

43:10

know and for me Alter was like

43:12

so much more than shoes in our

43:15

our our first investor and my mentor

43:17

Joe Morton. He always said to me

43:19

like you know is the shoes are

43:21

great the the education is like is

43:23

like another component of this that so

43:25

big he known actually teaching people how

43:27

to properly and teaching people to strengthen

43:29

their feet like you know you're You're

43:31

providing more than she the people you're

43:33

providing people experience and that was really

43:35

for me the goal of doing it.

43:37

That's really what I'm doing with Pr

43:40

Year. Now as and in the father

43:42

says, it really allows me to focus

43:44

on that other stuff because there are

43:46

the teaching. Yeah, there are Sues out

43:48

there, but there's some accessories and things

43:50

people need. An education that people need

43:52

to make this easier, you know people.

43:54

Cedar Deformed Three I'm a huge proponent

43:56

of characters that we sell and correct

43:58

other way for people. Get their

44:00

deformed feet back to looking like

44:02

natural, happy, healthy human feet. For

44:05

those like yoga toes, Kind.

44:07

Of except you were i'm inside footsteps

44:09

You see you can actually wear them

44:11

while you're at the sand in. I

44:13

tell people they're an arch support their

44:15

an ankle brace and they are information

44:17

optimizers and until you've put him on

44:19

you to stoner cent of it. At

44:21

my family shoe store we have people

44:23

do a balance test without him on

44:25

and most people feet again they're They're

44:27

big toe is bent in their toes

44:29

touch which natural human feet your toes

44:31

really should be touching and then we

44:33

put him in a pair for actors

44:35

and have do about. This sub the

44:37

toes wanna look almost like fingers. Yeah.

44:41

Like that your toes should be spaced.

44:43

You know they they should be spread

44:45

apart and certainly is or not they

44:47

should be able to do so. In

44:50

the Dc we see with people they

44:52

ages, their feet are not stable and

44:54

they fall and falls Kill. Lots.

44:56

Of elderly people and there's actually tons of

44:59

study supporting this. We get people out a

45:01

big that cause issues that are stabilizing and

45:03

d forming their feet and we'd get them

45:05

into barefoot style you know for wearing we

45:07

get their toes to spread out and they

45:09

start falling over and and as referencing the

45:12

balance as we do it sought because you

45:14

know what will have people and it can

45:16

be somebody who's seven years old that. Can't.

45:19

Balance on one foot. we put up aircraft

45:21

along and instantly their ballots improve dramatically and

45:23

and people learned look at me in there

45:25

like okay what do do magic did you

45:27

do on the you know that this is

45:29

one example deal thing we do we do

45:31

these bridge schools and they have a Met

45:33

pad and I'm and a lot of people

45:35

even on a map patterns but a map

45:37

had sits as the a cushion back behind

45:39

your meds are so has your forfeit and

45:41

most shoes are com case left to right

45:43

so your Psu is higher on the right

45:46

side in the left side than it is

45:48

in the middle. And as your Psu

45:50

wears out it gets even more so. And

45:52

so what happens is a foot ends up

45:54

in this position where your middle met heads

45:56

in the middle. Part in forefoot is down

45:58

like sway asked. Yeah. Exactly.

46:01

And so what happened to the met paths

46:03

you put met pad and as soon as

46:05

you fill that gap and it put your

46:07

forefoot back into natural position And bristles are

46:10

named this way because they're a bridge from

46:12

traditional footwear to more naturals that were so

46:14

a lot of people can have a tough

46:16

time with that transition. Innocent people's really easy

46:19

for other people just like they don't have

46:21

the foot strength and and if they reduce

46:23

their christian to most which most people do

46:25

they have issue. And so these pretzels are

46:28

a break from traditional forward a natural footwear.

46:30

And they just make that transition nice and

46:32

seamless for people. And then we can the

46:35

education what is best for exercises. So.

46:38

The biggest if you have to really distill

46:40

it down. I would say the single best

46:42

thing people could and should be doing. the

46:44

easiest one is just go jog barefoot on

46:46

the grass or sand. Single best for exercise.

46:49

You can do it. You can't do that

46:51

Nasa easy. You probably should do this anyway

46:53

is it's with com single lake he'll flip

46:55

and it's simply balancing on one foot. and

46:57

if you can comfortably balance on for one

47:00

foot and you pull your heel slightly off

47:02

the ground are talking quarter to half inch

47:04

max and you sit there and balance. And

47:06

the nicely with this. Exercise you may or

47:08

may not have picked us up. For me,

47:11

I'm very moderate, you know, kind of approach

47:13

guy. I hate ten of the extremes because

47:15

I just people get excited about that stuff.

47:17

But it's not practical and I'm super practical.

47:19

And then I sing a single actual floats.

47:21

You can do it anywhere either Single: A

47:23

kill float. Waiting in line to pay for

47:26

your groceries, you noticed thousand one foot pole

47:28

that you're slightly off above the ground. Once

47:30

you get decently good at it, no one

47:32

has to know what's happening. And so that

47:34

that single a balancing is a huge sponsoring

47:36

this is as obviously. Going to be

47:38

more effective done barefoot and even more

47:40

effective done barefoot with practices and that's

47:43

the key one. And then I just

47:45

like to use a little lung like

47:47

an elastic band of some sort and

47:49

walk. With that. an elastic band around

47:52

the big toes starts pulling the big

47:54

toes away from your feet and towards

47:56

each other's anything to help those seat

47:58

you know we approximate. The Kraken. For

48:00

decades most of us have been in

48:03

shoes that and that they kills away

48:05

from each other and the more your

48:07

big to is bent away from the

48:09

other big toe, the more problems you

48:12

tend to have at the lesser artworks,

48:14

etc. Zero drop. Means the

48:16

hill is level with the front of

48:18

the foot. Correct? Yes of the the.

48:20

the whole idea was like a typical

48:22

Sue would. Drop. From the

48:24

heel down the before for understood and

48:26

so the a Stallion story house Combat

48:28

So I'm it's a Shoemaker when it's

48:31

first doing this and we will actually

48:33

measure the thickness of the missile that

48:35

is less and I would talk about

48:37

how it was dropping from the hill,

48:39

a four foot and Robert Glazer the

48:41

Shoemaker. He'd have these millimeter rulers and

48:44

he'd sit here and eat measure you

48:46

know how sick it was here in

48:48

health. ticket was here he did against

48:50

still drop in two millimeters from the

48:52

Hilda the forefoot. Like okay get sent

48:54

to more millimeters s would send to

48:56

more know may result in or calling.

48:58

I'm hyped up modified cigarettes and then

49:01

he sense to out and we we

49:03

measure is like okay it's dropping zero

49:05

millimeters and Robert you're a genius. We'll

49:07

have to com hacked up modified shoes

49:09

anymore or com zero drop sees it

49:11

sounds cool enough and it's what they

49:13

are. It's great. Yeah and the I

49:15

think the great irony of it is

49:17

the term like caught on long before

49:19

altered it like a service of one

49:22

point three million dollars worth. Of Alters.

49:24

The first year was nothing compared to

49:26

the term. Zero Drop went into usage

49:28

among the born to run community like

49:30

instantly like it was just like everybody

49:32

was using it and it was really

49:34

a term to describe the cushioning of

49:36

the Sue. The cushioning was no longer

49:38

dropping from the hill in the forfeit

49:40

right Then all these like minimalist barefoot

49:42

sell shoes came out with no cushioning

49:44

and they sir calling themselves Zero. Dr.

49:46

Seuss and I just had to get

49:48

a chuckle because it actually kind of

49:50

created an uphill battle for Ultra at

49:52

Run Specialty because. A people search

49:55

associating zero draft with no cushion and

49:57

it was really a term to actually

49:59

described the. She originally is there

50:01

a benefit in being as close to

50:03

the ground as possible in your flat

50:06

position. It's. Very situational and

50:08

I would say it relates to impact

50:10

and it relates to activity. So for

50:12

example, I'm sitting here talking to you

50:14

barefoot right now. There's no reason for

50:16

me to have seen on this no

50:18

benefit from having shoe on so I

50:21

want to remove anything possible. Also in

50:23

if you're familiar with rounding, there's there's

50:25

incredible benefits that says letting your body

50:27

ground with the earth and our people

50:29

think that's hockey stuff, but just letting

50:31

your foot connect with the earth. There

50:34

are studies that so there's a much

50:36

bigger electron transfer. Happening there to get

50:38

these. these ions that are transferring is much

50:40

better and so lot of health benefits with

50:42

grounding And you know I would say for

50:45

casual usage yeah you have as little to

50:47

no cushion as possible. You know if you're

50:49

not challenging your feet to not doing something

50:51

that's difficult for your feet I don't see

50:54

any reason and you to be the closer

50:56

you are to the drama more stable you're

50:58

in be period. Sports cars are low and

51:00

wide for reason you know I was healthy

51:03

for uni, use the least amount of cushioning

51:05

that necessary for what you're doing. And trying

51:07

to accomplish so you know. for me I

51:09

go for a one mile run around my

51:11

neighborhood. I don't really need issue on for

51:14

them. To. I go

51:16

for a five mile trail run across

51:18

rocky terrain with mud. I'd probably want

51:20

logs for corrupt than I probably want

51:22

some brought protection in the form of

51:24

cushioning erotically to block the rocks and

51:27

make it easier for me to do

51:29

that safely and quickly. Now I go

51:31

run hundred mile race. It's

51:33

really hard to prepare your feet to

51:35

go hundred miles least in the modern

51:37

world and so having a big fat

51:39

sack cushy sue can actually be helpful

51:41

to hundred mile distance For a lot

51:43

of people, there are people that take

51:45

years and train their feet, get the

51:47

really their feet really strong and can

51:49

do one hundred mile race in know

51:52

cushioning but they're one in a billion

51:54

in assets. How often have you done

51:56

one hundred mile race with. I

51:59

started. 50s your number

52:01

once I get a little bit older and I lose

52:03

my fast twitch I'll probably move up and do hundreds

52:05

But I like to run still and

52:07

the reality is even the elites

52:09

are not really running at the hundred mile

52:12

Distance they're running the downhills. They're running

52:15

Some of the flats almost everybody's power

52:17

hiking the uphills and speed is not you know

52:19

as much as it's all relative I guess but

52:21

for me I can run quickly at the end

52:23

of the 50 mile race Like I've I've run

52:26

a 545 mile at the end of a 50

52:28

mile race Wow I've

52:31

run, you know a 36 minute 10k

52:34

at the end of a 50 mile race Wow. Nobody's

52:36

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houseofmacadamias.com/tetra Tell

54:02

me what it's like to do a 50-mile

54:04

race. What's the mindset? I always tell people,

54:06

like, if you're on a trail run, you

54:08

should approach it like hiking. The mindset is

54:10

hiking. I'm going hiking, I'm just doing it

54:12

faster. And for most people, it

54:14

means you are going to – you're going

54:17

to hike the uphill. You're going to jog

54:19

the flat and you're going to run the down. And

54:21

also, it's an eating contest. And

54:23

if you've read Born to Run, you hear them

54:25

talk about this. But it's almost as much more

54:27

about who has the awesome stomach

54:29

as it is about who has the awesome legs

54:32

because you have to fuel. You can get

54:34

through a marathon without fueling

54:36

extensively. But you go much

54:38

beyond that and you're a dead person, you know,

54:41

walking if you can't feel properly. And so

54:43

for me, the mindset is like, I'm

54:45

going to go do this somewhere incredibly beautiful

54:47

because I want to experience this

54:49

beauty. I'd love to do it fast. I'm

54:52

going to eat stuff that I like and

54:54

I'm going to have a great time with it. And the

54:56

mindset is like, for me, survive for 37 miles and then

54:58

let's get down to business for the last half marathon. For

55:01

me, that's an hour and a half and it's like

55:03

– it's go time now. What do you do for

55:05

food? So I actually train my

55:07

stomach. When I first started doing this, I

55:10

would drink orange juice right before going, really

55:12

acidic. And then I'd stop at 7-11 along

55:14

the way and get mini tacos and pizza

55:16

and burgers and anything else. Just horrible foods,

55:19

you know, that I wouldn't normally eat in

55:21

normal life really. But I did

55:23

it to train my stomach because I

55:25

know like the stomach is the – probably

55:27

the single greatest issue for most people running

55:29

ultra distances. You get nauseous or what is

55:31

it? You get nauseous. You have a hard

55:34

time holding food down. You have a hard

55:36

time getting enough in. And so, you know,

55:38

I've always been of the mindset like, for

55:40

example, my first marathon, the

55:42

mindset was like, well, when I went

55:44

to run my first marathon, I had already done things harder than

55:47

the actual marathon. So the race

55:49

didn't actually seem that hard. And

55:52

that was the mindset I really took into ultras as

55:55

well. It was like, okay, let's – you

55:58

know, this eating situation, let's make it harder. and it's

56:00

going to be on race day. So the race

56:02

day isn't so tough, typically. And training your stomach

56:04

is a real thing. It's a huge thing. I

56:06

never heard of that before. I never heard of

56:08

training your stomach in that way. Yeah, and it's

56:11

such a big one. And people don't talk about

56:13

it enough, but the reality is you're burning two

56:15

to 400 calories an hour or

56:18

more and you've got

56:20

to replace at least a couple hundred of

56:22

that to have any chance of performing, you

56:24

know, optimally. So learn

56:26

to eat whatever, you know, and ultra eight

56:28

stations are beautiful things. You know, you just

56:31

go in and it's like there's something for

56:33

everybody. For me, I'm usually grabbing, you

56:35

know, some soda, a handful

56:38

of peanut M&M's, beef, turkey, bacon,

56:40

you know, pancakes, grilled cheese sandwich,

56:42

quesadillas, you name it, just grab

56:44

it, put it in your pockets,

56:47

roll and then just eat while

56:49

you're going kind of things. So it's

56:51

just a mobile food party, you know, at the end of

56:53

the day. What's the first pushback

56:55

you get from your body? It's like something

56:58

in me doesn't like doing this. Sometimes

57:00

it's your stomach. You know, sometimes

57:02

it's like, I don't want to eat that. I don't

57:05

feel like drinking more and you know, I have

57:08

to do this. Like if I do not get

57:10

in this amount of calories, I

57:12

will not keep going at the same rate.

57:14

Or if I do not drink, I will

57:16

dehydrate and cause a problem. That's really only

57:18

an issue. Dehydration is massively overrated, in my

57:20

opinion, especially shorter races. It's really

57:22

difficult to dehydrate in under three hours, for

57:25

example, which is, you know, I

57:27

run marathons in about two and a half hours. So

57:30

dehydration is not something I face at that level.

57:32

But in longer levels, you know, that can be

57:34

a thing. But I would say, you know, in

57:36

ultra distances, there's these ebbs and flows of

57:39

just fatigue. And at first,

57:41

it's probably physical fatigue where you just can't

57:43

hold the pace you want to hold. And

57:45

your legs are just like, sorry, bro, like,

57:47

it's not today. But then you come out of

57:49

it. It's like you just like

57:51

suck it up for an hour, you know, and the next

57:53

thing you know, it's like, no, we're flying again, you know,

57:56

and you've been fueling. So it happens Towards

57:58

the end of the race. It's actually

58:00

more like your brain is like what

58:02

is happening, like we're fatigue that we're

58:04

we're done, were fried. It doesn't want

58:06

to believe anymore you know? And so

58:08

it's really this rollercoaster of of I

58:10

would save both physical rollercoaster of that

58:12

an emotional rollercoaster and I think that's

58:14

why people get addicted to it. I

58:16

don't really promote it, You know if

58:18

we're running for health we should be

58:20

running side case. Running. Somewhere between

58:23

a mile fast and three mile fast

58:25

and training for that is the optimal

58:27

thing to be doing for your help.

58:29

But there is something about the sounds

58:32

of running fifty miles in the mountains

58:34

or in a city two hundred miles

58:36

away in the people love. And part

58:38

of it is just this emotional rollercoaster.

58:40

In this is golf Pro a coaster

58:43

the happens where you'd literally think I'm

58:45

dead. I'm done. I'm coining it's over.

58:48

And an hour later your back on top

58:50

of the world's the main and an hour

58:52

later you might be dead done including for

58:54

real but you know who knows that's a

58:56

fun from piece of things for says i

58:58

I think leads to the addition of of

59:00

altering because it's really not that healthy than

59:02

activity in my opinion. So

59:05

many these races are just

59:07

in charter. Awesomely beautiful places

59:10

and this combination of beautiful

59:12

place with with incredible life

59:14

experiences these rollercoasters is powerful

59:17

is anything about. body type

59:19

for running like some people say if

59:21

you're over a certain amount of weight

59:23

running stuff for you better to walk

59:25

to send me that true i mean

59:28

maybe a certain size when when you

59:30

get really really big that for the

59:32

most part know your it it's interesting

59:34

you know i think people have this

59:37

misunderstanding that you know if you're taller

59:39

me a better runner or the average

59:41

marathon champion is male as five six

59:43

hundred and twelve pounds you know so

59:46

tall is is actually not an advantage

59:48

typically your marathon and under runners tend

59:50

to be smaller at the elite levels

59:52

but you're a lot of your elite

59:55

ultra runners are pretty did you know

59:57

and it's cat actually helpful to have

59:59

more muscle mass and

1:00:01

fat storage to go off

1:00:04

of for these longer distances and You

1:00:06

may not see that as much in the elite

1:00:08

of the elite but everything from good to elite

1:00:11

I would say on average the athletes who are a

1:00:13

little bit bigger tend to do a little bit better

1:00:15

in these longer distances Which is kind of an interesting

1:00:18

thing, but yeah for general people running, you

1:00:20

know If we give people the right technique

1:00:23

They tend to be fine and

1:00:25

I find that people that are heavier tend

1:00:27

to adopt a better technique easier They

1:00:30

haven't learned as bad of habits and

1:00:32

their body naturally is like we

1:00:34

had a lot of weight hitting the ground here

1:00:36

we need to spend more mind power and emphasis

1:00:39

on protecting ourselves and They

1:00:41

can kind of overcome their bad shoes More

1:00:44

than the average person might be able to which

1:00:47

is an interesting thing for sure.

1:00:49

You mentioned grounding earlier Did you

1:00:51

ever consider making the ultras? groundable

1:00:55

Yeah, my sister very early on was like

1:00:57

you should put grounding plugs in ultras, you

1:00:59

know, and it was like at

1:01:02

the time we were mostly only making running shoes and It's

1:01:05

like that's like half an hour out of the day

1:01:07

for most people and people can ground any

1:01:09

other time of the day you know, they can take their shoes

1:01:11

off before or after they're run and get the benefits that way

1:01:13

and from an engineering

1:01:15

standpoint, it was Difficult and

1:01:18

a marketing standpoint very challenging just kind of

1:01:20

tell that story So it didn't get off

1:01:22

the ground but it was definitely considered and

1:01:24

didn't quite make it to prototype stage But

1:01:27

it was in development stage for sure if

1:01:29

you were to do it, how would you

1:01:31

do it? So there are shoes today that

1:01:33

have grounding plugs in them and

1:01:35

they run a copper interface from the middle of

1:01:37

the shoe So the copper

1:01:40

touches the ground and it runs to

1:01:42

something that then Connects

1:01:44

with the foot. So the foot is some

1:01:46

on something that's touching the copper interface, which

1:01:48

is then running a line down to

1:01:50

the ground So we're

1:01:53

getting pretty extreme on the fringes here But that's what

1:01:55

people do and I I think it's

1:01:57

really interesting. So it's not something I've played a

1:01:59

whole lot with That thunder think about

1:02:01

at least. So when you started

1:02:03

your shoe company, what was the

1:02:05

first competition you had in foot

1:02:08

shape? Choose. You. Know, even today

1:02:10

there's really only one other brands

1:02:12

making cushion for safe running shoes.

1:02:15

Which. Is fascinating and saddening at

1:02:17

the same time. To me you

1:02:20

I would say these days. And.

1:02:22

Even all along I have not always

1:02:25

just been a pure alter advocate, but

1:02:27

I've been an advocate for healthy footwear.

1:02:29

Why sit on the executive board and

1:02:31

Healthy Feet Alliance and and I promote

1:02:33

shoes besides ultra levels are don't get

1:02:35

me wrong but I want people in

1:02:37

whatever foot seat natural zero drop. Psu

1:02:39

is going to be best for them.

1:02:41

The other says one hundred brand other

1:02:43

it now at least have any kissing

1:02:45

and I wish there were more. Frankly,

1:02:47

I still remember when this other brand

1:02:49

came out and my buddy the elf

1:02:51

me start companies well brand. Acted I

1:02:53

member him to spin past. He's just

1:02:55

like carefully, those guys just ripped off

1:02:57

our instincts, soon made their own. And

1:02:59

slap their brand on it and it's actually

1:03:01

the guys. Started my fingers in the

1:03:04

Us doing this and him and I

1:03:06

are. You know we're We're good friends,

1:03:08

we get along and and I remember

1:03:10

thinking like awesome They just totally legitimized

1:03:12

us legs. They just made us look

1:03:14

legit enough. Second, now it's It's like

1:03:16

a real format Yeah and I think

1:03:18

I think part of it though is

1:03:20

it's really hard to engineer this because

1:03:22

shoe Last factories these foot forms of

1:03:24

the sewer built around the all com

1:03:26

with philo They since I say I'll

1:03:28

start tapered like when when we did

1:03:31

as I had engineer these last. From

1:03:33

the ground up, we had to

1:03:35

literally build an entirely new shape

1:03:37

that never existed before. A Last

1:03:39

is a plastic. Plastic

1:03:42

or metal foot form? Yeah, it's

1:03:44

like a mannequin for essentially. Yeah,

1:03:46

except for like all other shoes,

1:03:48

it's It's super point. Yeah,

1:03:50

and so we had to go in and and

1:03:52

make an actual one that looked like a foot

1:03:54

massage basically. And that's actually how we got the

1:03:56

seats for the first alters and I learned to

1:03:59

the a healthy. The and you my mindset

1:04:01

was like okay people that get injured and I

1:04:03

can use them as a socket A people that

1:04:05

never got injured as like okay you've never had

1:04:07

any problems, you never get injured. When we trace

1:04:10

of feet were your socks can wear socks and

1:04:12

were seized and we're in a tracer feet and

1:04:14

their seats look like based on the length of

1:04:16

a foot. How much difference is there in the

1:04:19

with of the front of a foot. From.

1:04:21

Person to person a lot. Release Yeah people

1:04:23

have massive variability is very very difficult to

1:04:26

spit everybody you can. I do the best

1:04:28

the best you can train. Get his in

1:04:30

the middle of that bell curve as as

1:04:32

much as possible. But that said, it's better

1:04:34

for the sport box to be too big

1:04:37

into small. Yeah, and and that's actually a

1:04:39

big boy As a shoe you know when

1:04:41

I'm actually selling as you are sitting Sunday

1:04:43

for issue the first thing I'm in sell

1:04:46

them is you know you want to sue

1:04:48

to disappear that suit. It's best to use

1:04:50

the shoe that. Say the least there and

1:04:52

it should feel too big and details. and

1:04:54

if it doesn't feel to begin the toes,

1:04:57

it's too small. Yeah and I will just

1:04:59

emphasize that over and over. And I and

1:05:01

like the kind of pushes a little bit

1:05:03

far with people because most people can't grasp

1:05:05

this. Since we have been little kids are

1:05:07

parents have told us to put our she's

1:05:10

on a time uptight, makes or sooner secure.

1:05:12

Not so bad for blood flow. It's bad

1:05:14

for foot health. Like your and realities of

1:05:16

your toes learn to spread out, do their

1:05:18

thing. They stabilize in the shoe. you know

1:05:20

I'm running. A lace Macys anymore In and

1:05:22

only time a lace muslim running like super

1:05:25

technical trailer I'm doing like really fast speed

1:05:27

work and even then you know if I

1:05:29

don't lace my shoes my foot can go

1:05:31

to roll or my shoe can and my

1:05:33

foot will be like no I'm good You

1:05:35

know that the toes will spread out and

1:05:37

do their thing where than in of the

1:05:39

Psu does something you may not want to

1:05:41

do. for example an assist like a cool

1:05:43

thing that human body does once you get

1:05:45

it back. Being as human body someone say

1:05:47

you don't lace them do you mean you

1:05:50

don't have leases in them. And. All you don't tie

1:05:52

them. Up on my foot in the

1:05:54

shoe prints and then I'll pull my foot

1:05:56

most of the way out of the shoe

1:05:58

so of take it. And

1:06:00

before my he'll come fall where the shoe Then

1:06:02

I'll try the soon nice and tight. And.

1:06:04

Then I'll put my foot back in the shoe at

1:06:07

that point in time and from then on that she

1:06:09

was a slip on. I see a slight it

1:06:11

on isolated off. I never tired, I never untie it

1:06:13

until it is not as round the I'm tied

1:06:15

at some point in time so comes on and off

1:06:17

like a be yeah boot or a flipper. Know

1:06:19

And I think people like this idea of not having

1:06:22

to tie their shoes for sure. For. A

1:06:24

lot of people they have to rewire their

1:06:26

brain again because they've just been taught my

1:06:28

shoes to be type and it's uncomfortable to

1:06:30

them for their heels. Slip up and down

1:06:32

a little bit at first, but again the

1:06:34

reality is once you get used to this

1:06:37

is far more comfortable. You get better blood

1:06:39

flow. It helps everything he'll if it stabilizes

1:06:41

better just as a better way to be

1:06:43

doing things. So what's your feeling about socks

1:06:45

and no socks person off. I'll say my

1:06:47

feet stink so if it were merino wool

1:06:49

socks, it's it's. bad for people around me,

1:06:51

but the biggest from a sort of socks.

1:06:54

The pharmacy to. You. Know if you've

1:06:56

ever put a nice pair of socks

1:06:58

up next to sort of like hospice

1:07:00

as your foot. Well, that's going to

1:07:02

pull your toes together. and in my

1:07:04

opinion, you know Sox are almost as

1:07:06

responsible for foot deformation, his shoes or

1:07:08

and so that. The biggest thing is

1:07:10

you're going to wear socks and that's

1:07:12

your preference. Buy them a size bigger

1:07:14

than the package says. That.

1:07:16

So for example, I'm a size nine foot.

1:07:19

I wear a size ten shoe. I wear

1:07:21

socks for a size thirteen to fifteen. And.

1:07:24

A sick rate in own and the

1:07:26

thing I was happy to lose as

1:07:28

they take your sock and hold enough

1:07:30

next your foot in on my foot.

1:07:32

Even with the size thirteen to fifteen

1:07:34

sought my foot is still longer the

1:07:36

my sockets and it's a ridiculous thing.

1:07:39

You really think about it so you'll

1:07:41

see. don't wanna deforming seat, You want

1:07:43

your feet to be healthier, use the

1:07:45

salk that's that's because tell me more

1:07:47

about the first year of Ultra, How

1:07:49

did you distribute them? So Brian, Jeremy,

1:07:51

and I went and knocked on the

1:07:53

door of running stores. Everywhere we went

1:07:55

to trade shows, we called called. there's

1:07:57

no thousand running some in America. I've

1:07:59

been in close to seven hundred of

1:08:02

them. Actually an ear. The

1:08:04

approaches. Basically we managed to source.

1:08:06

Here's what other shoes do. This

1:08:08

is why we think we make

1:08:10

something that could be an advantage

1:08:13

to you and you see carrier

1:08:15

and what percentage of people were

1:08:17

interested. I'd say maybe one in

1:08:19

three, one and for would pick

1:08:21

it up in the first. Year.

1:08:24

Or so after we met with them. Probably

1:08:26

only one in twenty that was like

1:08:29

on the spot, yes, let's let's go,

1:08:31

that was a lot of lot of

1:08:33

rejection, but as the years go. And.

1:08:36

The science is what it is and you know

1:08:38

people see it more and get more familiar with

1:08:40

it. Then it becomes easier and you know I

1:08:43

saw member some of these guys calling back that

1:08:45

may have been really really hard to a survey

1:08:47

on and just totally dismissive and calling back to

1:08:49

get an accountant. Sometimes I'd be like no mic

1:08:51

and sweat a little bit. Don't

1:08:54

have that account for a few weeks, you know? I'm

1:08:58

not vindictive by any means, but I do like to

1:09:00

have fun with people. And you know, if you made

1:09:02

me sweat for a few years I might make you

1:09:04

slept for a couple weeks. What

1:09:14

May food in the sphere took for granted.

1:09:18

Counterculture had program at sacred

1:09:20

Geometry. Sets for grammar to

1:09:22

the avant garde has had

1:09:24

plummeted generative offsets your grammar

1:09:26

to the tarot tetra grammar.

1:09:28

Check out of print news

1:09:30

sense of remittance Biodynamic yet?

1:09:32

or grandma's his graphic design

1:09:34

Check for grammar to mythology

1:09:36

and metics has the. Skills

1:09:40

such a common sense

1:09:42

beach culture as affirmative

1:09:44

esoteric lectures remittance off

1:09:46

the grid living for.

1:09:48

Granted old spirituality, programmers and

1:09:51

the Canon a fine objects

1:09:53

histogram, it's in Muscle Cars

1:09:55

to dramatise ancient wisdom for

1:09:58

new age. Upon

1:10:01

entering experience the art work of

1:10:04

the day. Take

1:10:06

a breath. And see

1:10:08

where you are drawn. Was

1:10:26

there a moment in time where it

1:10:28

felt like it really shifted to being

1:10:30

beyond your dream successful know still out

1:10:32

there? Ah to be honest here know

1:10:34

I remember like I'm of are being

1:10:36

at Scb. Forty Under Forty We were

1:10:39

nominated and were inducted into the Forty

1:10:41

Under Forty Nothing you know a forty

1:10:43

Business leaders under forty years old and

1:10:45

specific. Big deal on a business where

1:10:47

a whatever our the care about the

1:10:49

stuff of but I remember being asked

1:10:52

this question and they're like so when

1:10:54

it also becomes bigger than. You thought

1:10:56

it would be. And by Summer Brennan during which

1:10:58

he knew each other when. It's

1:11:00

not of we started be better

1:11:02

at it wasn't a product. It.

1:11:05

Was the whole back and side of

1:11:07

the business, the accounting, the sipping, the

1:11:10

delivery, the customs, the just the nuts

1:11:12

and bolts, the organization of the business

1:11:14

that really held us back from being

1:11:16

in a bigger in my opinion. At

1:11:18

least you know that first size six

1:11:20

seven years I thought we'd be bigger

1:11:23

after for five years and Ultra is

1:11:25

now. Frankly wow I probably didn't see

1:11:27

as being as big as we became

1:11:29

in the through hiking community that when

1:11:31

took off of really quick in it

1:11:34

it was in that first. probably

1:11:36

four years we became the number one

1:11:38

shoe on all the long trails so

1:11:40

people hiking canada mexico hands down alters

1:11:42

are the highest she their an ultra

1:11:44

marathon in world that that team really

1:11:46

fast to there's not a lot of

1:11:48

those people i mean in in the

1:11:50

grand scheme of things but we did

1:11:53

dominate that market pretty quit and the

1:11:55

trail market was about where we should

1:11:57

kind of i think the original vision

1:11:59

is like we ended up being in

1:12:01

trail running where we kind of thought we'd

1:12:03

be overall. And that's still

1:12:05

catching up today. Yeah, I imagine it catching

1:12:07

up because, again, once you

1:12:09

wear the shoes, it'd be hard to put on any

1:12:12

other shoes. You know, I think where

1:12:14

people miss the boat and where that ends up

1:12:16

not being true is runners are

1:12:18

very beholden to marketing and technology

1:12:21

and they're all about fast,

1:12:23

you know. And the

1:12:25

irony is we've got all these super shoes now

1:12:27

and Altra makes a super shoe called the Vanish

1:12:29

Carbon now that's fantastic. But

1:12:31

these super shoes for the most part are, they're

1:12:34

engineered to make you run faster, but they're also engineered

1:12:36

to injure you. And we're

1:12:38

seeing an epidemic of runners that are running a

1:12:40

lot of miles in these super shoes and they

1:12:42

have these really explosive phones. They're super bouncy. But

1:12:46

the problem is they tend to amplify

1:12:48

anything you do wrong as well. So

1:12:50

what goes down has to come back

1:12:52

up, right? And with these explosive phones,

1:12:54

it gets amplified that much more. Once

1:12:56

we're seeing this epidemic of injuries, you know,

1:12:58

this is where road runners are just so

1:13:01

beholden to this. And the best super shoes

1:13:03

are on average making people one to two

1:13:05

seconds faster a mile. And

1:13:08

you know, for reference, like our

1:13:10

float run harnesses that we make, our average reviewers

1:13:12

think they get 30 seconds faster a mile. You

1:13:15

pay 12 bucks for a float run harness or spend $300 to $500 on

1:13:17

a pair of super shoes. Your

1:13:19

choice. One will get you more injured and

1:13:21

the one will get you less injured. And it's the cheaper one

1:13:23

that gets you less injured. But

1:13:26

the thing there is runners are so beholden

1:13:28

to that. And all the

1:13:30

marketing is there. All the dollars are spent there.

1:13:34

And so where we get into a problem

1:13:36

is people go after

1:13:38

that stuff. And also doing

1:13:41

this stuff that we're talking about, getting your foot

1:13:43

back into its natural position is far

1:13:45

more important for all day every day than it is

1:13:47

for the 30 minutes a day you run. You

1:13:50

have some ultra marathoners that run for an hour plus

1:13:53

a day. You know, some elite road

1:13:55

runners or higher level road runners that run

1:13:57

more than an hour a day. But for the

1:13:59

average person out there. they're running 10 to 30 minutes

1:14:01

a day. And

1:14:03

you're going to get a lot more benefit having your

1:14:06

foot in natural position for all day every day than

1:14:09

you are just for running. And so

1:14:11

I always tell people, like, at the end of the day, running

1:14:13

what you want, you're biomechanically going to be

1:14:15

better and you're going to be less injured in a

1:14:17

pair of foot shades, ear drops, cushions, shoes. But

1:14:20

what you wear all day every day, getting your

1:14:23

foot back into its natural position is going to

1:14:25

be a lot more important. So

1:14:27

it would be better to wear Altra's or

1:14:29

be barefoot during the day than the

1:14:32

little bit of time that you're exercising.

1:14:34

Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. And that's

1:14:36

where I think people kind of miss the boat, in my

1:14:38

opinion. And at Altra, we

1:14:40

used to do something where we called it

1:14:42

the month-long foot-shaped challenge. And

1:14:45

we challenged people to wear nothing but

1:14:47

foot-shaped shoes for a

1:14:49

month. And that included

1:14:51

your casual wear as much as your running wear.

1:14:53

And when those people did that, it was exactly

1:14:55

what you said. Those people that actually

1:14:57

took the foot-shaped challenge, very few of

1:14:59

them went back to regular shoes

1:15:02

at that point in time. But

1:15:04

the people that still wore what I would

1:15:06

call modern, traditional shoes all day and occasionally

1:15:09

ran in Altra's, it wasn't as hard for them

1:15:11

to go back. Do the great runners tend to

1:15:13

be great runners naturally, or is

1:15:16

it more based on stuff that

1:15:18

they've learned? Sprinters are almost completely

1:15:20

genetic. You could have the greatest coach

1:15:22

in the world, the greatest nutrition, the

1:15:24

greatest training, and

1:15:26

you're either born a great sprinter or you're not. I

1:15:29

think the most beautiful thing about distance running

1:15:32

is that anybody can be really good. Now,

1:15:35

can anybody make it to the Olympics? Probably not.

1:15:37

You're kind of born an Olympian or not, to

1:15:39

a degree. But for the most part

1:15:41

with distance running, you get in what you put out. And

1:15:44

this is something my dad has always loved because

1:15:46

he came from this nonrunning background. He came from

1:15:48

being a weightlifter, essentially, and

1:15:51

a really big guy. And

1:15:54

you put the work in, you get it out.

1:15:57

And it doesn't really matter who you are. It doesn't matter what

1:15:59

your genetics are. Like, anybody

1:16:01

can be respectable and

1:16:03

I love that too, personally. There's not a lot

1:16:06

of sports like that, frankly. It's

1:16:08

probably the least genetic based sport I

1:16:10

can think of. What's your feeling on

1:16:12

heart rate training? I'm a math disciple.

1:16:15

Math is still Mafetone's method to a degree.

1:16:18

So I'm basically a believer in training

1:16:20

at a really low heart rate for the bulk

1:16:22

of my mileage. The number one

1:16:24

cause of running injuries is supposedly over training.

1:16:27

It's training with the wrong technique. It's

1:16:29

training your body too much. So I guess in that

1:16:31

sense, it's over training. And the best way

1:16:33

to combat over training and therefore running injuries is just

1:16:36

to freaking slow down. It

1:16:38

should be enjoyable. And I don't know really always how

1:16:40

to explain it to people, but I know that when

1:16:43

I tell them to do it, almost everybody comes back

1:16:45

to me and is like, well, I have to walk

1:16:47

at that heart rate. Or like, that's

1:16:49

too slow. Like I don't feel

1:16:51

like I'm running. It's like, yeah, well, that's kind of how

1:16:53

it is at first. Then your body adapts. Next thing you

1:16:55

know, you're running at that same heart rate a few months

1:16:58

later and you're going a lot faster. And

1:17:00

for me, I kind of describe it like this. Sometimes

1:17:03

my wife will call me on while I'm out on a run.

1:17:06

And a few minutes into my run, she'll be like, are you running

1:17:08

right now? And

1:17:10

that's a good way to describe if you're

1:17:13

running at the right heart rate most of the time. If

1:17:15

somebody could give you a call on the phone and they might not

1:17:17

know you're running for a while. It might take

1:17:20

them a while before they're like, oh, you're out running, aren't you? And

1:17:23

what people don't understand with this is the

1:17:25

way the aerobic engine is built, it

1:17:27

doesn't matter whether you're running at the top end of your

1:17:29

aerobic zone or the bottom end of your aerobic zone. You

1:17:31

get the same benefit either way. So

1:17:33

you might as well run slower and put

1:17:35

more volume in, which

1:17:38

also does less muscle damage, which means you're

1:17:40

more recovered so that when you do want

1:17:42

to go faster, hard, you're more fresh and

1:17:44

able to do that. So essentially

1:17:47

you get the same benefit. You can put in

1:17:49

more volume and you're fresher to hit it harder

1:17:51

when you want to hit it harder. And that's

1:17:53

why it works. And I don't hear a lot

1:17:55

of people talk about that why of the component

1:17:57

And I'm a big why guy. You're

1:18:00

about to methadone. oh my mom went

1:18:02

to amass a tone. Coaching.

1:18:04

Thing when I believe Sarcone who

1:18:07

is her sponsored the time probably

1:18:09

early nineties sometime Brian Eno some

1:18:11

around the time around my first

1:18:13

marathon and it took a while

1:18:16

and I probably didn't like fully

1:18:18

embrace. It. All the way

1:18:20

until about time I started ultra. Again,

1:18:23

and I haven't had a major running

1:18:25

injuries since that time. So it's been

1:18:27

thirteen years now. and I've I've never

1:18:29

had Ninety Ben injury or knee injury

1:18:31

or since plants are in a runner's

1:18:33

near any the stuff. Tell me about

1:18:35

your first marathon. So when I think

1:18:37

about it, I saw it on talking

1:18:39

about somebody elses life And maybe it's

1:18:41

because when you run longest since you

1:18:43

burn brain cells and I just burned

1:18:45

too many brain cells running as a

1:18:47

young kid you know my parents. They

1:18:49

they had read that the longer to

1:18:52

crawl, the more intelligent. They be. There

1:18:54

were some studies on this and so they

1:18:56

always put me down. never a stand up

1:18:58

to walk and I just got pushed down

1:19:00

over time as a toddler and one day

1:19:03

they they set me outside the car didn't

1:19:05

realize of the playground there and I

1:19:07

had never walk before but supposing it took

1:19:09

off running and rounds of the place before

1:19:12

and ever done any extensive walk you know,

1:19:14

maybe gotta step two to three steps in

1:19:16

before I got knocked over. That was

1:19:18

me running before I was supposedly again we

1:19:21

gotta remember this and I ran at. A

1:19:23

young age when parents were race directors

1:19:25

so no put races on say end

1:19:27

up running races. I just liked it

1:19:30

and when I was eight I won

1:19:32

the World You Championship since can like

1:19:34

this is this the shorter? a slick

1:19:36

three to think I'm selling what's next

1:19:39

and minister neighbor wasn't Olympic trials false

1:19:41

are as well in the marathon my

1:19:43

mom is a multichannel at the Trails

1:19:45

qualifier I'm almost the state record holder

1:19:48

and the marathon my dad you know

1:19:50

was elite as well and I remember

1:19:52

thinking. Will The St. George Marathon is

1:19:54

like the same legs you know I

1:19:56

mean they do Boston and stuff too

1:19:59

but really like. It meet in my

1:20:01

circle like St. George marathon was a

1:20:03

thing everybody cheating on and if you're

1:20:05

not enough misery this St George's down

1:20:07

by Las Vegas Nevada. Beautiful red rock

1:20:09

scenery. you know it's It's basically a

1:20:11

road marathon that looks like it should

1:20:13

be a trailer is is just gorgeous

1:20:15

start to finish and I was like

1:20:17

whoa everything else does that I wanna

1:20:19

do is like a Dalit on her

1:20:21

things which is like. You're. A

1:20:23

super now you know. And so

1:20:26

that year I turned nine. And.

1:20:29

That you're at St. George. The

1:20:31

youngest runner wins the performance of the nature

1:20:33

of wow which is the six foot tall

1:20:36

trophy and I'm telling you to a little

1:20:38

sawed off around for for tall you know

1:20:40

nine or of runner there is nothing more

1:20:43

cool than a six foot tall throw. Feet

1:20:45

like that is the pinnacle of life at

1:20:47

that point in time. and Ice military my

1:20:49

dad i'm watching the word so handsome and

1:20:52

any run ins with kids was twelve. Ran

1:20:54

for a half hour marathon which is super

1:20:56

impressive an ice military my dad's that she

1:20:59

would let me run a little Kotaku trophy.

1:21:02

And. I never

1:21:05

let it go like I just kept

1:21:07

pestering him and pestering him. and the

1:21:09

next spring. At one point

1:21:11

you just like satisfying. Find just leave me alone if

1:21:13

you run, render him in the Grand Canyon. Harder

1:21:16

than a marathon and you run up Mount

1:21:18

Temp in August and back. You also harder

1:21:20

than marathon and do these other couple things

1:21:22

that are marathon equivalence. Basically I'll I'll let

1:21:25

you run the marathon and I really think

1:21:27

the thinking of the time was like he'll

1:21:29

realize that this is a horrible idea, that

1:21:31

this is super painful and it takes a

1:21:34

ton of commitments and you know he'll he'll

1:21:36

try to do one of these things and

1:21:38

and just like pull the plug and go

1:21:40

back to running. sort stuff from you know,

1:21:43

playing basketball my planet on the best possible.

1:21:45

The kids. So an antenna messed

1:21:47

up cause I liked it.

1:21:51

In fact we went red rimmed him

1:21:53

and this is kind of where it

1:21:55

started and ended and I got done.

1:21:57

The first day in I suffered badly.

1:22:00

like they were doing Havasupai

1:22:02

the next day. And if you know

1:22:04

about Havasupai, it's one of the most beautiful places in the

1:22:06

world. Kind of same thing. It's at

1:22:08

least a marathon level effort to run down into Havasupai

1:22:10

and back out. And they were gonna do that the

1:22:12

next day, my dad and his friends that I was

1:22:14

with. And they were

1:22:16

like, okay, you've had enough, right? And they were like,

1:22:19

no, I'm going to Havasupai. So

1:22:22

I ended up running 50 miles in

1:22:24

two days. Basically back-to-back marathons as a

1:22:26

nine-year-old. Unbelievable. And that was it. At

1:22:29

that point, the writing was on the wall, right? I was going

1:22:31

to do Mount Tipinogas and I was gonna do these other things

1:22:33

and it wasn't gonna be a problem. And so

1:22:35

he essentially lost a bet with me, was

1:22:38

forced to let me run. And

1:22:40

it's not like I was doing all this specific

1:22:42

training or anything, but I had done things that

1:22:44

were harder than the race. Had

1:22:46

no expectations. It was just like, I go out and

1:22:48

have fun, three hours, eight minutes, five seconds. And

1:22:51

this is seven minutes a mile. And-

1:22:53

For a marathon. Yeah, for a marathon,

1:22:55

state record. Nine-year-old. I turned 10 right

1:22:57

before the race. So I

1:22:59

was 10 on race day. And of

1:23:01

course the next couple of years, I

1:23:04

ran faster and I'm

1:23:06

about the same speed as the elite Olympic

1:23:09

trials qualifying woman. And

1:23:11

they don't like that. That's

1:23:14

an ego blow on a four foot tall sawed

1:23:16

off with red hair goes by. Lots

1:23:18

of swear words. I learned a lot

1:23:21

of new vocabulary at that point in time. It

1:23:23

sounds super fun. It really was.

1:23:26

And it still is for me. I

1:23:29

think that's one of the biggest pieces of advice I give

1:23:31

to people is make it fun. I

1:23:33

live in a place now in Golden, Colorado. I've got

1:23:35

about 20 trail heads within a 15 minute

1:23:38

drive. And for me, any

1:23:40

day I wanna go, it's just like, what

1:23:42

sounds fun today? What do I wanna do?

1:23:44

I wanna go get my hands dirty and

1:23:46

scramble up a cliffside or do I wanna

1:23:48

climb up a mountain and bomb down this

1:23:50

trail? Or do I wanna go through the

1:23:52

deep dark enchanted forest in the snow? Who

1:23:55

knows? I think that's a big piece of things. You

1:23:58

hit it on the head. It should be fun. As much

1:24:00

fun for you as it's always been, I

1:24:02

think it might be more fun. Thats great

1:24:04

now. Yeah, I'll tell you this like I'm

1:24:06

on break right now. He others this book

1:24:08

train hard when easy by Toby Towns are

1:24:10

human lives with the canyons right and he

1:24:12

writes in the buffet. A lot of these

1:24:14

world champions don't run three months earlier. that

1:24:16

is totally take it off no work out

1:24:18

off And when I read that I was

1:24:20

like why citizen my kids the best in

1:24:22

a rather than and I I should try

1:24:24

that and I think that has been one

1:24:27

thing that has always kept it fun for

1:24:29

me is you know. I've always taken to

1:24:31

three months off around. I do other stuff

1:24:33

you know it's winter in L. A snowboard,

1:24:35

a snowshoe. I play basketball or to tickle

1:24:38

ball. name is like it shouldn't be

1:24:40

wrote and routine and for like if that's

1:24:42

the way it's happening like trying for male.

1:24:44

Study.