0:00

Hey! Hi

0:31

friends, welcome to

0:34

another episode of

0:37

That Sounds Fun.

0:39

I'm your host, Annie F. Downs. I'm so happy to

0:41

be here with you today. As

0:43

a reminder, this is our last episode in

0:45

the month of March. As

0:48

always, we take Holy Week, the

0:50

week between Palm Sunday and Easter,

0:52

to rest, to rest from podcasting,

0:54

from recording and releasing. And part

0:56

of that is to give you

0:59

a little more time, to give

1:01

you a couple of hours back

1:03

this next week, to sit in the importance

1:06

of the week, to think about, to read,

1:08

to listen to gospel things

1:10

and really spend next

1:12

week being a little more

1:15

reflective as we walk towards Easter. So

1:17

we will be back with you on

1:19

Monday, April 1st. We

1:21

also kick off our Let's Read the

1:23

Gospels Guided Journal book club that day

1:26

on April 1st, so make sure you're

1:28

subscribed to Let's Read the Gospels podcast.

1:30

You can listen to the podcast or

1:32

you'll be able to watch them on

1:35

YouTube. You grab your guided journal from

1:37

wherever you love to read books. Make

1:39

sure you have the guided journal and

1:41

join our Facebook group. The link is

1:44

in the show notes below. So remember,

1:46

we're going to start that on Monday,

1:48

April 1st, Easter Monday, the start of

1:50

Eastertide. We will go through Let's Read

1:52

the Gospels Guided Journal together. Before we

1:54

dive into today's conversation, I want to

1:56

tell you about one of our incredible

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fun. Check it out today. Today's

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episode is one of my favorites

3:01

of the year. You know, the

3:03

last show before Holy Week, we

3:05

always love to bring on a

3:08

theologian, a pastor, a

3:10

scholar, someone who can talk about the

3:12

Gospels in Holy Week with us to

3:14

kind of prepare us for what we

3:16

are walking into next week. And

3:18

today I'm so excited to have our friend,

3:21

Dr. Joel Mutamale. Joel serves as the

3:23

director of theology and research at Proverbs

3:25

31 Ministries, and is

3:27

a co-host of the popular podcast,

3:29

Therapy and Theology, alongside two of

3:31

our very favorites, Lisa Terkers and

3:33

Jim Kress. He's also the theologian

3:35

in residence for Haven Place Ministries.

3:38

His work studying theology and its

3:40

practical application has led him to

3:42

conclude that living a humble life

3:44

is not a sign of defeat, but a mark of

3:46

Jesus's victory in our lives. And we are gonna talk

3:48

about that today. His new book is called

3:50

The Hidden Peace. He has an

3:53

entire chapter about what Jesus

3:55

was like and his humility. And

3:57

I thought, man, this is perfect going

3:59

in. Holy Week. Joel is

4:01

so brilliant and you are going

4:03

to learn a ton from him in this

4:05

one. I cannot wait to hear your thoughts

4:08

after you listen. So here's my conversation with

4:10

Dr. Joel Mutavali. Joel,

4:16

welcome to that sounds fun. Oh

4:18

man, I'm so excited. And you thank you for having me. What

4:20

a treat. This is long in the making.

4:23

We share all the friends. I

4:26

have watched from a distance

4:28

when you're with Lisa and Jim, when

4:30

you're with our blurry creatures guys, and the unfair

4:33

advantage I have is that I go, I want

4:35

him on my show. And then I just send

4:37

enough text messages that someone makes it happen. So

4:40

thank you for responding to whoever reached out.

4:42

I'm very grateful. Absolutely. It

4:44

was a no-brainer for me and this

4:46

is far, far overdue. So super excited.

4:49

Agreed. Okay, because the show is called

4:51

that sounds fun. We're starting this year, our tenth year of

4:53

the show by asking people what sounds fun to you. Okay,

4:56

one of the things, you know, Annie that you need

4:58

to know about me is I'm a huge nerd, like

5:00

I'm a big fan. Oh great. And so it's

5:03

very, and I also answer questions and ask

5:05

questions in two parts, which is can get

5:07

complicated. So I'm just gonna answer in two

5:09

ways. Here's the first thing that that sounds

5:11

fun to me. I think

5:14

playing full court basketball on like a Tuesday

5:16

or Wednesday, playing ball and

5:18

then going and doing a cold plunge. Have you

5:21

heard about this cold plunge thing? Who

5:23

hasn't? Everyone's thinking English has heard

5:25

of cold plunge at this point. It's crazy. Right. I

5:28

mean the host Josh Brolin on Saturday Night

5:30

Live did a cold plunge in his monologue. Right,

5:33

right. So yeah, we've got one.

5:36

Hey, I think our mutual friend, I

5:39

think you guys know the Luscos, Levi

5:41

and Jenny have been cold

5:43

plunge evangelists. I believe that that's the

5:45

early adopters, honestly. Really, and so

5:47

he was trying to get me on it and he

5:49

got me on it. Yeah, so I'm in and the

5:51

other thing that sounds super fun for me to

5:54

my wife's dismay. I think

5:56

going to the beach, sitting on the beach,

5:58

never getting in the that water or even

6:00

close to that water by reading a book, man,

6:03

that's like the jam. That's the jam for me.

6:05

Listen, people should listen to you because

6:08

you are studied, you are learned, and

6:10

you are saying don't get in the

6:12

ocean. There is so much we don't know.

6:15

There's so much we don't know. Yeah.

6:18

And Annie, you do know. I do not get in that

6:20

thing. Like you do know for the ancient Israelites, you know,

6:22

like when they saw big bodies of water,

6:25

they're not thinking, great day for us to

6:27

have a pool day or get in. And

6:29

they're thinking run for your life. This is

6:31

an image of chaos and destruction. And

6:33

so I'm just thinking there might be something for us to learn

6:36

about the ancient Israelites. That's right. They've been trying

6:38

to warn us from day one. Two of my

6:40

all time favorite movies are Meg and

6:42

Meg 2. Oh yeah. And people

6:44

are like, but Annie, you hate the ocean. I'm like, no,

6:46

no, no. I know that stuff is in there. I'll watch

6:48

a movie all day long because I'm not getting in it.

6:50

That's fine. How much of what

6:52

goes on on earth do we not know? Oh

6:55

gosh. I think a lot. I think Baelum's

6:57

donkey is a great, great example of how much

6:59

we don't know that's going on. You

7:02

know, here's this donkey that sees the angel,

7:04

the Lord on the path and it's like, I

7:06

am not going in this direction. And yet,

7:08

you know, he's like, no, like you

7:10

must go in this way. And the donkey

7:13

refuses. And then finally the Lord opens the

7:15

mouth of the donkey and the donkey is

7:17

like, you know, Joel's paraphrase, you knucklehead. Like

7:19

I actually think that's probably what's happening. Like

7:21

I'm trying to save your life and you're

7:23

trying to run into like destruction, but I

7:25

think there's a lot. I

7:27

think there's a lot. And I think

7:29

there are these breakthroughs, these glimpses of

7:31

where the earthly and the cosmic are

7:34

being made aware for us, which is

7:36

actually a return to Eden. That is

7:38

what the Edenic vision is. The ancient

7:40

Israelites and even the Greco-Roman

7:42

world of the New Testament,

7:44

they didn't separate earthly and

7:46

cosmic, earthly and supernatural. Like

7:48

this is very much a

7:50

postmodern, post enlightenment, industrial revolution

7:52

kind of thinking because of

7:54

our uncomfortability with what is

7:56

unknown. And

7:58

Annie, you know, as I've been kind. Working through the last

8:01

two years on this concept of humility

8:03

which has actually been really have a

8:05

life's journey for me I'm of realize

8:07

that our awareness of our limits and

8:09

what we don't know is actually a

8:11

gracious gift the God gives us because

8:13

that is the pivot points in which

8:15

we have to turn in faith to

8:17

the one who does know who is

8:20

in control and so yeah as there's

8:22

a lot the we don't know but

8:24

doesn't freak us out the should actually

8:26

have us being more focused on Jesus

8:28

the Messiah. Yeah because I

8:30

think off ten thousand. It's a

8:32

great example of a bigger. Story is

8:35

that we think we've identified these

8:37

ten fish or the thousand, The

8:39

face, Whatever. And but there are

8:42

significant parts. Of those, and no one's

8:44

ever gotten to observe ends. And I

8:46

think on lads etti my life I even

8:48

had this the of weird experience this weekend

8:50

where I can add this moment wow it

8:52

like oh the lord is trying to show.

8:54

Me that they are spiritual warfare all the

8:56

time and. That if I'm not paying

8:59

attention I will miss understand what's

9:01

going on and I feel like

9:03

I'm in a place. Where.

9:05

I just need the Lord all the time. To

9:07

tell me what's going on. Yeah. Absolutely.

9:09

I make sense a D V D assets that at times.

9:12

Absolutely all all the time all the time

9:14

on wrapped around you. Is it more

9:16

profound? The older we get our that

9:18

more profound. The. More Ministry as a

9:20

central part of our lives. That's.

9:22

That's an interesting question. I think it's

9:25

more profound in a combination of both,

9:27

but I think the the age question

9:29

is directly connected to and experiencing question,

9:32

you know. So it's not aids in

9:34

and of itself, but it's rather of

9:36

the things that take place in the

9:38

distance from which were traveling through that

9:41

age or through that time period. You

9:44

know and so it's like if you just think

9:46

about like I'm indian other of he knew that

9:48

any I'm Indian like from India my parents in

9:50

the I compare here. Yeah yeah yeah you. Know

9:52

they immigrated here in the back of the

9:55

day. You know life expectancy was not great.

9:57

Yeah in in India's first in the rural

9:59

villages. You can get the money people are

10:01

dying right now from simple things. Malnourishment

10:05

in diabetes it's unattended to and just

10:07

all the enough so the life expectancy

10:09

is much lower and if we think

10:11

about oh are the only way to

10:13

gain wisdom or knowledge or over the

10:15

sufis do a great lengths of age

10:17

of like all that doesn't make sense

10:20

and probably any other place except the

10:22

western context enough but if we go

10:24

to other were other lands other nations

10:26

other countries would say oh no it's

10:28

it's it's the experience of. What actually

10:30

takes place and so you might have x

10:32

you know some his twenty five or twenty

10:34

six and India who has lived like fifty

10:36

years of life Because that is the context

10:39

in which growth and wisdom and understanding has

10:41

taken place and so of I think it's

10:43

some combination of both a D or opening

10:45

my eyes I say alive and I want

10:47

to live to be one hundred and that

10:49

I am and that's kind of. My goal

10:51

is to get to three digits ads but

10:53

you're opening. My eyes to that is

10:55

a pretty privileged believe that I will

10:58

be able to maintain my health and

11:00

and I do recognize there's a lot

11:02

of things out of my control but

11:04

I have not had so we're having

11:06

this conversation I haven't really processed like

11:09

oh even to believe I have the

11:11

chance to be a hundred is. Proof

11:13

of the privilege of my life. That

11:15

I think that's an option for me. Yes,

11:18

I do this thing on Tuesdays called the

11:20

algae Talk Tuesday on my and I got

11:22

a question ones that are those super awesome

11:24

and the question was why does Jesus only

11:27

lived till his mid thirties? Like thirty three,

11:29

thirty four, whatever and then dime across south

11:31

like it was. That was that to short

11:33

circuit the system. Is it really fair to

11:36

say that in Hebrew said Jesus was experience

11:38

and all they did. He just gets a

11:40

bad bounce out halfway through a life cycle

11:42

you know And I was I rather question

11:44

ago. Okay this is the perfect example of

11:47

being disconnected. from an ancient rolled in

11:49

the ancient contacts be has the average

11:51

lifespan of just and abs person in

11:53

the greco roman world the time the

11:56

jesus is walking around is probably late

11:58

thirties to very early for Unless

12:00

you're an aristocrat and somebody who was incredibly

12:02

wealthy, you know, in the Roman

12:05

citizenship kind of situation, those folks are

12:07

living longer, 45, maybe 50. But

12:11

notice how what we've done is

12:13

we've imposed our modern understanding of

12:15

even something as simple, but it's

12:17

not simplistic as our friend Jim

12:19

Kress often says, of lifespan. How

12:22

old can somebody be? And we're actually

12:24

trying to impose that onto the biblical

12:26

context, but it's actually foreign to the

12:29

biblical context. And so we actually

12:31

do a little bit of harm to the

12:33

text, like Jesus in short circuit, the process

12:35

like he actually lived the full lifespan of

12:37

a typical average living Israelite of

12:39

the time. And so that's just another example

12:41

of something like that. But it

12:43

seems like his disciples, like when you think

12:46

about John and Peter, they kept like

12:49

there isn't across the disciples, there

12:51

isn't stories of them all dying

12:53

younger and Mary is alive

12:55

the whole time, like his mother, Mary. And so

12:57

what you're saying is really interesting to me because

12:59

the other problem we have is in the stories

13:01

that we read, we don't have, we

13:03

don't experience other people dying in Scripture

13:06

in their thirties and forties. Exactly. Exactly.

13:09

So we automatically assume they can live till their 90 versus 50.

13:12

Yeah. And actually, I think John on Patmos

13:15

is thinking, why me? You

13:18

know, I don't think he's like

13:20

hype about being the last arriving

13:22

disciple that we probably know of. Like,

13:25

I think he's thinking probably like, why me? Like

13:27

what's happening here? Because there is a

13:29

longing to be, to be, that's Paul's struggle, you know, I

13:31

long to be with Jesus. And

13:33

yet it's beneficial for me to be here on earth

13:35

now. And so tension of the

13:37

already been out yet. Wow.

13:40

Okay. This is all my dreams come true because

13:42

as we are looking toward Holy Week, where

13:44

a rhythm we have at that sounds fun

13:46

as we don't write or record or release

13:50

episodes during Holy Week as part

13:52

of like everything going just a little bit

13:54

quieter, giving people a little more space

13:56

to sit and think and process

13:59

Holy Week. So, I mean,

14:01

in your new book, The Hidden

14:03

Peace, you do a whole chapter

14:05

on Jesus' humility. Can

14:08

you talk a little bit about why humility,

14:11

pursuing humility really matters as people

14:14

of faith? Yeah. Well,

14:16

I think I want to turn to two kind of

14:18

passages of Scripture. We can kind of summarize them. One

14:21

is Matthew 11, 28 and 29. It's

14:24

kind of this epic scene where

14:26

Jesus is talking about the exchange

14:28

of yokes. And this verse, Annie,

14:30

has kind of been the coffee

14:32

mug or t-shirt kind of verse.

14:35

Pretty much everybody knows about it. You could not be

14:37

a non-believer. You could not even know about Jesus. And if

14:39

you start talking about an exchange of yokes, they'd probably

14:41

be able to be like, oh, I think that has

14:43

something to do with this guy named Jesus. But

14:47

what's fascinating about studying about this exchange of yokes

14:49

is that the people at the time,

14:51

when they hear this language of

14:53

the yoke, they're actually hearing the

14:56

Pharisees and the Sadducees, the religious

14:59

rulers of that time, and they're

15:01

making a hyperlinked connection to the

15:03

law, the Torah. And

15:06

here's kind of what ended up happening

15:08

for them is that the religious rulers

15:10

would leverage the law, the Torah, as

15:13

a means of power to kind of

15:15

oppress everybody else. And so the

15:17

law became this unbearable weight that

15:19

they could not ever fulfill.

15:21

There's no hope of it. And yet

15:24

for the powerful, they're

15:26

like, hey, I can leverage this all day, every

15:28

day, because it keeps me in power and it

15:30

keeps everybody else dependent on

15:32

me for whatever that thing is. And

15:35

here comes Jesus, this rabbi teacher who says,

15:37

hey, by the way, let's do an exchange

15:40

of yokes. It's not a removal of

15:42

yokes. It's an exchange of yokes. And

15:44

he flips it. He's like, I'll

15:46

take the burdensome weight that is

15:48

unlivable for humanity, which is the

15:50

law. And look at what Jesus

15:53

does in his earthly life. He fulfills... Actually,

15:55

I was reading a book the other day by N.T.

15:57

Wright, and I think it's fascinating him and another guy.

16:00

scholar Gordon Wenham, they've kind

16:02

of really made a strong case that

16:04

in the life of Jesus, Jesus actually

16:06

embodies the story of Israel in his

16:09

incarnation. So like everything that

16:11

Jesus is going through, like even the

16:13

wilderness temptation, that's a retelling

16:15

of the Israelite story, right? Like all

16:17

this stuff is happening. And

16:19

what Jesus is like... He's like full callback. Jesus

16:21

is a full callback. Yeah, like the whole thing,

16:23

like he could be like a, like I think

16:26

somebody should do this on Instagram or on social

16:28

one day is just do like all these moments

16:30

and do the callback, you know? It's like a

16:32

great comedian who sets up a joke in the

16:34

very beginning and calls back at the very end

16:36

and you're like, yeah. So I

16:38

think that's happening and then Jesus is saying, you

16:40

can't, you're actually right, you can't carry the weight

16:42

of the law but I can and so let

16:44

me do it. And so he takes on that

16:46

and then he gives us a

16:48

wearable yoke but it's that second

16:51

part that is super fascinating. He

16:53

says, come and find rest.

16:55

He's like, it's this invitation, come with me

16:57

and find rest because I am, and he

16:59

uses these two words, gentle and

17:01

humble. And the Greek word

17:04

for humble is tapianos and

17:06

I did a bunch of

17:08

study on this. In the Greco-Roman world,

17:10

if you used this Greek word tapianos,

17:13

everybody and their mamas would be running away

17:15

from you. Like it is Marcus

17:18

Bart, a whole bunch of other scholars, much

17:21

smarter than I, have found that this word

17:23

almost overwhelmingly has

17:26

a negative connotation throughout

17:28

this time period. And isn't

17:31

it just like Jesus to

17:33

take something that

17:35

has this totally negative connotation and

17:37

flip it totally on its head?

17:39

I mean, this is telegraphing the

17:41

cross, the ultimate sign of defeat

17:43

and flipping it on its

17:46

head so that I think, gosh,

17:48

I think Tom Holland, the historian,

17:50

not Spider-Man, very more in detail.

17:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he makes a

17:56

claim and it's like within

17:58

200 years or something. that the

18:00

cross kind of is starting to change in

18:03

terms of its symbolic kind

18:05

of focus, you know, on how it's viewed, which

18:08

is amazing because we're talking 3,500 years before this.

18:11

It's almost universally understood as a sign of defeat.

18:13

Well, the same thing is happening with this word

18:15

humble, and this is what Jesus does. He says,

18:17

hey, come and be with

18:19

me. And if you want to experience true

18:21

rest, if you want to experience peace, if

18:23

you want to experience Shalom, it's this upside

18:26

down thing. And we all are like, yes,

18:28

we want to experience that. My goodness, we

18:30

want to experience that. And then it

18:32

seems like the very last thing that we're willing to

18:34

do in order to experience that is to pursue humility.

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22:40

now back to our conversation with Joel. And

22:49

here's my thought on why we're so resistant to

22:52

humility. It's because for a long time, humility in

22:54

the same way in Matthew 11, 29, 28 and

22:56

29, humility

22:58

has been leveraged by the powerful

23:00

as a means to oppress and

23:03

to cause pain for

23:05

everybody else. But y'all, that

23:07

is not biblical humility. Biblical

23:09

humility is a three-part movement, Annie. It

23:12

is first and foremost an awareness of

23:14

God. If we know who

23:16

God is and we know who we are,

23:18

so I know God, now I know myself,

23:20

I made it in his likeness and in

23:22

his image. And then the third part is

23:24

it's an awareness of God, it's an awareness

23:26

of ourselves. So now we're able to rightly

23:28

relate to other people. It is this three-part

23:30

movement that is vitally important because it actually

23:32

will help create peace between me and God

23:35

internally inside of ourselves and then relationally with

23:37

other people. And this is exactly what Jesus

23:39

invites us to in Matthew 11, 28 and

23:41

29. And then

23:43

in Philippians 2, 8 and 9, this

23:46

is like the most, I think

23:48

offensive verse in the

23:50

Bible. When Paul describes

23:52

Jesus. Yes, yes. It's so

23:54

rude. It's so rude,

23:56

right? He wasn't attractive. He wasn't,

23:59

yeah, yeah. People didn't like him

24:01

that much. Right, right. So

24:03

starting in verse 7, instead he emptied himself

24:05

by assuming the form of a servant. Are

24:07

we being serious right now? Taking

24:09

on the likeness of humanity when he had

24:11

come as a man. And look at this

24:13

verse 8, he tapianas, he humbled himself by

24:15

being obedient to the point of death, even

24:18

to death on a cross. It's like if it didn't

24:20

get, it wasn't just bad that

24:22

he became human. But in being

24:25

human and fully God, but taking on humanity,

24:27

in being human, he then submitted

24:29

himself to death on a cross, like it's

24:31

from bad to worse. But then verse 9,

24:33

like this doesn't end in verse 8, verse

24:36

9 is that therefore, for this reason God

24:38

exalted him, look at the language of exaltation,

24:41

and gave him the name that is above every name, so

24:43

that the name of Jesus, every new will bow in heaven

24:45

and on earth. And this is cosmic language. It's

24:48

talking about both the earthly and the

24:50

supernatural, and every tongue will confess.

24:52

And so here's the humility, you

24:54

know scholars call this the divine

24:56

humility of Christ. And

24:58

the path to exaltation,

25:00

fascinating, is actually

25:02

through humility. Like

25:05

it was necessary for the incarnation for

25:07

Jesus to take on humility in the

25:09

form of becoming man. And

25:11

that was his path to exaltation. It

25:15

feels, and you do this so beautifully in the book,

25:17

I can't wait for people to read the hidden piece

25:19

if they haven't gotten it yet, because you really chop

25:21

that up and talk about how each part of that

25:23

Jesus did, each part of that

25:26

scripture, he actually did. So

25:28

let's talk about a couple of his humble

25:31

choices, particularly in Holy Week.

25:34

And I was just like, I want to bring a couple of them up,

25:36

and I would love for you to riff on them. So

25:39

for example, from the beginning, when

25:41

he let Judas in, he knew

25:43

who Judas was. And

25:46

that's a humble choice, right? To let one

25:48

of your best friends, let

25:51

your traitor become one of your best friends, and Jesus

25:53

knew the whole time. What kind

25:55

of humility is that? How do we model that

25:57

in relationship? Are we kind of choosing that with

25:59

everyone? one, like every single person

26:01

could be the traitor and yet he

26:03

knew who it was. Why

26:07

was that? What was that about? I

26:09

mean, this is a bit speculation on my part, you

26:11

know, but I would say this way, I think

26:14

one of the principles that we're supposed to learn

26:16

from here is that even Jesus, who is 100%

26:19

God and fully human, right, and he knows

26:21

that the cross is in front of him

26:23

and he knows exactly what Judas is supposed

26:25

to do, is going to do. He's

26:29

unwilling to not

26:31

risk the intimacy and the

26:33

vulnerability of the relational moment at that

26:35

time. Yeah. Like, I

26:37

think this is like a human thing

26:40

because, Annie, if you and I made

26:42

every decision in our human to human

26:44

relationships based off of like the potential

26:46

of hurt, the potential of

26:49

ruin, the potential of somebody

26:52

backstabbing us or whatever relational, you

26:54

know, them walking away, whatever it

26:56

might be, we would live lonely,

26:58

lonely lives. People do that, Joel. People

27:01

absolutely do. I mean, we

27:03

talked about it at dinner last night. It's

27:05

crazy you're saying this. We talked about it

27:07

there outside. One of my friends was recounting

27:09

some embarrassing things that he feels embarrassed about

27:12

from a previous relationship. And

27:14

another friend says, but you

27:16

were willing to risk. So you gained

27:18

all these beautiful things and

27:20

you leave with two embarrassing moments. If

27:23

you are unwilling to do that risking, you

27:26

will also not gain the rewards.

27:28

And so Jesus choosing to risk

27:30

that also allowed

27:32

him to be loved by Judas

27:34

at some point, right? Exactly.

27:37

Exactly. Wow. And

27:39

I think too, like we're thinking about it from the

27:42

context of Jesus. Sometimes

27:45

I think it's good for us to also flip

27:47

it and think of the context of Judas. Yeah.

27:51

Judas does what he's going to do. He's

27:53

fully aware of his decision making.

27:56

And I just think this is an invitation. It's not

27:58

the book I talked about. Holy. He

28:00

doesn't know from like the day he meets Jesus, does

28:02

he? No, I don't think he knows from the

28:04

day he meets Jesus, but here's the other

28:06

thing. This is so good, Eddie. I don't

28:09

think anybody wakes up one day and says,

28:11

today I'm going to destroy my entire life

28:13

and all the relationships that... No one robs

28:15

a bank the first time they think of

28:17

taking money. That's exactly right. Nope. It's a

28:19

series of small character compromises that is an

28:22

avalanche of decision making that turns into that

28:24

catalytic moment where the whole thing falls apart.

28:26

But what I think we need to become

28:28

better at is tracing when that first heart

28:31

compromise inclination took place, the first

28:33

character compromise. And I think it was like

28:35

probably early on when Judas was like, this

28:38

dude is spending all this money on poor

28:40

people that don't even love him. They're like,

28:42

you know, like this ain't right. I

28:45

think those were the conversation. It's interesting in

28:47

the book. I talk about hidden pride. Hidden

28:50

pride is so deceitful, Annie, because it presents itself

28:52

as the fruit of the spirit. Hidden

28:55

pride, you know, Galatians

28:57

chapter five, Paul's using this agricultural language, love,

28:59

joy, peace, patience, kindness, right? Hidden

29:02

pride presents itself in those ways, love, joy, peace,

29:04

patience, kindness, kindness, gentleness, but at the very

29:06

center of it, it is corrupt. It's

29:09

not aimed to God word, it's aimed inward.

29:12

And so here's the challenge about this, and it's

29:14

kind of terrifying, is you can

29:16

live on the momentum of good things

29:18

for a season and for a while.

29:21

If the inside is corrupted, Eugene Peterson referred

29:23

to this as an incongruity of

29:25

the human heart. If the inside is corrupted,

29:27

it's only a matter of time before it catches

29:29

up to you. And I think this is

29:31

what's happening with Judas. And so

29:33

I actually think the story with Judas and

29:35

Jesus, there's a flip side of this that

29:37

invites us introspectively to have a holy humility

29:39

moment, to ask our questions of, are we

29:42

walking into situations well-knowing that we're causing

29:44

and going to cause self-sabotage or we're

29:46

going to cause hurt or whatever it

29:48

might be, and say, is it worth

29:50

it? Here's the kindness and

29:52

the generosity of Jesus and His invitation

29:54

to us that ought to have

29:56

us repent, to turn from our ways and

29:59

turn towards Him. Because the path

30:01

that Judas took obviously wasn't the one that

30:03

is the path that God wants for

30:05

His children. Right. I

30:07

mean, Judas and Peter

30:09

are such interesting parallels

30:12

to me because they

30:16

both made a decision about Jesus

30:18

that we would have guessed eight

30:20

chapters ago, however many – two years ago

30:22

in their story they had never done. And

30:25

their stories end so differently,

30:27

Joel. So what's the humility

30:29

in Peter versus Judas after

30:31

they do the thing that

30:34

allows Peter to be restored and Judas

30:36

to not? I mean, Judas'

30:39

story is so tragic to me. And watching

30:41

The Chosen breaks my heart because he's such

30:43

a nice-looking guy with these beautiful blue eyes.

30:46

And it's just like – he's like, no,

30:48

don't be Judas. Don't do it. What

30:51

is that? Because there are so many of our

30:53

friends listening who this week during Holy Week are

30:55

realizing like, I've said some yeses I didn't mean

30:57

to say. I have

30:59

walked toward a sin I didn't mean to do. Am

31:01

I going to end up like

31:03

Judas or am I going to end up like Peter? Yeah,

31:07

I think that we have to – in the same way

31:09

in Matthew 11, 29, Jesus is all about invitations. And

31:11

I think that the question is, are we

31:13

willing to have our eyes open and

31:17

willing to step into the invitation that Jesus

31:19

has for us? And so I think a

31:21

fascinating detail about Peter's story is that Jesus

31:23

is in the process of taking the moments

31:25

of our life that are in ruin and

31:27

turn them into the very context of our

31:29

restoration. So think of

31:32

Peter, very small

31:34

detail in the text that there's

31:36

a charcoal fire that's present at the

31:38

time of Peter's denial. And

31:40

I think it's fascinating and incredibly

31:42

important that at the moment that

31:44

Jesus restores Peter on the beach

31:46

post-resurrection, there's a very small detail

31:49

that there is a charcoal fire

31:51

that is burning. Now, if

31:53

you've ever been around campfires or anything, you

31:55

know that it takes forever to get that

31:57

smell off of your clothes, right? Yeah. Imagine

32:00

being in the ancient world where

32:02

charcoal fires are everywhere, right? So

32:04

can you imagine being Peter who

32:06

every time he smells like I

32:08

think this is the neurological, psychological,

32:10

emotional trauma, the therapy thing that

32:12

I think we need to really

32:14

pay attention to. This

32:16

is why when I do the podcast series

32:18

with Lisa, our friends, Lisa Turkerson, Jim Kress,

32:21

therapy and theology, like I'm always trying to show like,

32:23

hey, the theological and therapeutic go together, like they come

32:25

hand in hand. Do we actually not believe any that

32:28

every time Peter is going to come across a

32:30

charcoal fire, he's not going to be triggered. He's

32:32

not going to be traumatized. Right. He's not going to

32:34

remember this is the time that I betrayed my best

32:36

friend, even after I said I was not. And in

32:39

it, Luke says they made eye contact. And

32:41

they made eye contact. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

32:43

That is the worst detail in the whole

32:46

Bible to me. That is so heartbreaking. That's

32:48

so heartbreaking. But then you

32:50

have Jesus intentionally in

32:52

a charcoal. Why? Because

32:54

what Jesus is inviting Peter to that

32:56

he actually I think invites Judas to.

32:58

It just happens to be the Jews.

33:00

Judas denies it that

33:03

he says, hey, Peter, I'm going to restore

33:06

you. And all the details are almost the

33:08

same. The three times the repetition, everything up

33:10

like even to the charcoal fire. And

33:13

here's why I think this matters. The charcoal fire.

33:16

It doesn't take away the

33:18

reality of Peter's

33:22

denial of Jesus or the ruin that

33:24

was experienced there. But it

33:27

reframes that moment so that he can get

33:29

through it and get to the restoration. So

33:32

like what is the gift of humility in that moment

33:34

for Peter? The gift of humility was

33:36

his ability to get through something really,

33:38

really important. And I think that the

33:40

most important preposition in the Bible is

33:42

the preposition through. And

33:45

we're not a people of through like in this in

33:47

our society. We don't want to get through anything. We

33:49

want to get over around. We want to show her

33:51

a song about the bear.

33:53

Yeah, right. Exactly. You got to go through it.

33:55

Yeah, like I'm telling you all if you're reading

33:57

your Bibles, pay attention to the through. It was

33:59

necessary. For the issue as you go

34:01

through the red see why they met

34:03

the power of yeah we used. As

34:05

for them to go through the wilderness,

34:07

wife them at the provision of the

34:09

our business or for Jesus to go

34:11

through some areas. Why so he meets

34:13

a smear some women who become Jude

34:15

gents health becomes the first evangelist has

34:17

a female like it was Nesser for

34:20

Jesus to go through the cross Why

34:22

is the across a week sprints the

34:24

power, the protection, the province provision of

34:26

Jesus himself and so this through thing

34:28

is so important and pride. Suggests.

34:30

You don't have to go through anything. It's. Not

34:32

worth it. right? You know, Edu

34:34

side canvases? who? Yep, that's right. Pride

34:37

promises you clarity and leads you the

34:39

chaos and confusion. Yeah, now. humility Like

34:41

now like that that is going to

34:44

be long term destructive for you. Let

34:46

me walk with you through this. Yeah,

34:48

it feels like Pride offers a short

34:51

cut because. You I think when I

34:53

am and what I am letting pride drive my

34:55

but. It is this I'm going

34:57

to get a short cut at because. I

34:59

deserve a short that. Yes, And.

35:02

And that is. Not. True not to and

35:04

isn't a city. Is it a sin Sin This

35:06

is in. this is three. there ain't that the

35:08

new underneath the side of as bright all that I

35:10

have tell me how they are i am from have

35:12

any because there is not the much difference except the

35:15

amount of clothing. I mean it is I am not

35:17

that much difference that's right. A rat

35:19

so I've always had with the story

35:21

of Judas is wide sees as didn't

35:23

save him. Yeah. I

35:26

don't know that I have a great answer for that. I

35:28

really don't I I was. That's my personal Russell.

35:31

With. Her it may it's I guess.

35:33

Sad story to me. It's

35:35

the only thing that I can go go to

35:38

and this is more theological than it is. Human

35:40

heart, Emotional. Ah, I'm and that's

35:43

what messes with me to like

35:45

I'm like Jesus saves a man.

35:47

like clearly save them rights. But

35:49

this is interesting detail. but pharaoh.

35:51

where you know talks with a hardening

35:54

of the heart in what pharaoh does

35:56

like a thing is six seven instances

35:58

of that phrase the harding of the

36:00

heart happens in the with the hebrew

36:02

structured is three times it refers to

36:04

Pharaoh hearting his own heart. Like this

36:06

is his own decision. One time I

36:08

think it's neutral than three times. It's

36:10

actually like God Yahweh doing it. Like

36:12

he's the active agent of it. But

36:14

the way that it's framed is it

36:16

positions Pharaoh's momentum leading the way. And

36:18

so what Yahweh is just doing is

36:20

speeding up the natural trajectory of where

36:22

Pharaoh is going because God has this

36:24

bigger picture in mind of the salvation

36:27

of humanity. And there's a hard truth.

36:29

It's just hard to imagine that. But

36:35

it also on the flip side,

36:37

it does communicate human agency and

36:39

it does communicate that God desires

36:41

for us of our volition to

36:44

seek Him out. And I kind of

36:46

paralleled that to the Judas story and

36:48

just think, man, this

36:52

wasn't what God intended and yet

36:54

it is absolutely what He allowed

36:57

and it's tragic. And so

36:59

here's the other thing, Annie, I think sometimes we look at

37:01

texts and we want things to be tied up in a

37:03

nice neat bow so we can get to that picture. And

37:07

I think so like I ended up writing about this

37:09

in a chapter about when bad things happen to humble

37:11

people, the issues, the

37:13

Odyssey. And I've been I'm just

37:15

amazed that every time you and I and

37:17

this is the story of Job, every time

37:20

we're asking why God

37:22

is committed not to answer our why but

37:25

to respond with who. You

37:27

know? And so it's like we

37:29

and it's like there's that famous like

37:31

the rappers like the more money, more

37:33

problems type of deal. It's like more

37:37

more questions, more answers, more answers, way

37:39

more questions. Like the answers actually aren't

37:41

gonna help us in any way. But

37:44

what we're supposed to be reminded of the

37:46

entire time is the who who is with us

37:48

through it. And that's actually a more eternal

37:50

comfort. And so I think that the story

37:52

of Judas even when we're asking these really difficult

37:54

questions is to actually bring us back to,

37:56

well, Jesus was there.

37:58

He was present. The invitation

38:01

was open, you know. One

38:04

more weird theology Judas question and then we will move

38:06

on. There is a point where

38:08

Jesus says that there would be these 12

38:10

will rule with me in the Gospels.

38:15

He says the 12 will stand by me. I think

38:17

it's even says this 12 thrones maybe. Does

38:20

that include Judas then? I

38:23

don't know. I don't know. I don't

38:25

think so. Yeah. Yeah. I

38:28

don't think so. I think it's all the

38:30

way back with like, you

38:32

know, Joseph and all the brothers, you

38:34

know, Joseph's it's

38:37

the numbering is weird because his two

38:39

sons get to claim. Right.

38:41

So you've got to double up over there. So there's part

38:43

of it. And if you even think about if you even

38:45

think about the two sons, this is wild. This

38:48

is so like so Old Testament.

38:50

The two sons are half Israelite,

38:53

half Egyptian, half Egyptian.

38:57

You have Gentile inclusion all the

38:59

way back. Dude. That

39:02

are fundamentally part of. Yeah. Yeah.

39:06

Moses, in fact, Mary's a Kushite woman.

39:09

Fascinating story as well. He marries

39:11

a Kushite woman. Well, the Kushites were

39:13

probably African-American. They're probably black. Like there's,

39:16

there's, there's notable archaeological evidence

39:18

that part of Egypt at one point in

39:20

time that the Kushites had actually come in

39:22

and taken over. And so that's like, it's

39:24

African. Like that's exactly what it is. Here's

39:27

a dark-skinned woman and Aaron and

39:29

Miriam gets so mad. You know, I think it's like numbers,

39:31

somewhere in numbers and God,

39:34

he, oh, this is also super crazy.

39:37

Right before this passage, it says that

39:39

Moses is the most humble man on

39:42

all of the face of the earth. Right. Like

39:45

there's nobody more humble than Moses. So we're

39:47

thinking, okay, here's Moses, the most humble man.

39:49

I want to win right after this. And

39:52

right after this, it's not a win. It's Aaron

39:55

and Miriam being like, why'd you marry that

39:57

woman? She doesn't belong here. Right. And

39:59

they're causing care. And then God comes in.

40:01

And he doesn't condemn Moses for marrying

40:03

the cassette woman's but he actually accuses

40:05

and critiques Aaron and Miriam And then

40:08

Miriam. Consequences is leprosy, She becomes white

40:10

as snow and she gets sent outside

40:12

of the camp. Fascinating because the person

40:14

who was on the outside the kush

40:16

had woman's is actually invited in and

40:19

affirmed as an insider and the person

40:21

who was the insider is actually given

40:23

a consequence and sent outside for it

40:25

for a time and see. Have got

40:27

this picture that's happening there as well

40:30

with both of those self. I think

40:32

that that's all kind of playing together. Idol

40:34

Lithuania just started that if I

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guess we talk about we're bible

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now back to finish up our conversation with Joel. You're

45:03

going to love this. My acupuncturist is Jewish. And

45:07

when he talks about organs, he says,

45:09

I want your organs to

45:11

get along like Joseph Sons, not

45:13

Jacob Sons. Oh, that's

45:15

so good. Because you're like, oh yeah,

45:17

I never think about Joseph Sons as two.

45:20

I think about them as this one unity

45:22

because they take up Joseph's seat. And

45:24

so I mean, can you beat an acupuncturist that

45:26

brings in Jewish theology the whole time? It's the

45:28

best. It's the best. You

45:30

would love it. Next time you're in Nashville, you just let me know. Okay,

45:33

I will. And it will be a great feat for me

45:35

because I'm afraid of those acupuncture

45:37

needles. It scares me. But

45:39

I will trust you on that. He

45:42

is just the best. He's the best. And

45:45

when he chops it up about the Old

45:47

Testament and our bodies and what God is

45:49

doing, it's so fun.

45:51

It's so fun. Every time I'm

45:54

like, am I in like Hebrew school or am

45:56

I in my acupuncture? I don't care. I like

45:58

them both. Okay,

46:00

so when we think about Holy Week and

46:03

we're thinking about the Last Supper, I would

46:05

love for you to tell me what do

46:07

we miss about Jesus washing His disciples' feet

46:09

and His humility because of our Western mindset?

46:12

What are we not seeing in that

46:14

story? Yeah, that one's

46:16

actually a pretty important one, and I

46:18

know that it's become kind of a

46:20

timely conversation as well with

46:22

just the image of feet washing, and

46:24

what does this image actually mean? And

46:27

so I ended up writing quite

46:29

a bit about this because I think

46:32

what ends up happening, Annie is

46:35

we take biblical images and

46:38

sometimes we strip them out

46:40

of its kind of context, its ancient kind

46:42

of Near Eastern context. So

46:44

feet washing, I'm going to read from something I

46:47

wrote, feet washing in the ancient Near East was actually

46:49

a sign of hospitality and would have

46:51

been performed for guests who entered a house.

46:54

So Genesis 18, Genesis 19, this

46:56

is important. So then the guests who enter

46:58

someone else's home, they'd show respect to that

47:01

household in what they said and in how

47:03

they acted. So the

47:05

very symbol of feet washing

47:07

is actually rooted in a

47:09

context that desire to communicate

47:11

hospitality that would have been

47:13

understood implicitly as a responsibility

47:15

for the person who entered to

47:17

show respect and to show honor

47:20

because they are in fact in

47:22

the house and they're the guest.

47:24

So then you get to John 13 and

47:26

there's this shocking scene. You find

47:28

Jesus, the son of God, who takes on the

47:31

posture of a servant, which is wild because servants

47:33

were the ones who were normally the ones who

47:35

did feet washing because in the ancient world, people

47:38

actually today, like if you went to India, the

47:40

majority of people like you from the villages in

47:42

India, they're walking on barefoot. Y'all the

47:44

streets are gross. Like people still

47:46

do feet washing today. The

47:48

servants would wash their feet. A rabbi would

47:50

never get on bended knee

47:53

to watch them. And here's Jesus, who's the

47:55

rabbi. And he takes on the posture of

47:57

a servant again, holy humility moment.

48:00

Because this shouldn't surprise us. This is

48:02

Philippians 2 that Jesus and the

48:04

incarnation takes on humanity. Why

48:07

does Jesus do this? This is a

48:09

big question. Why does He do this?

48:11

So before we just hijack the symbol and leverage

48:13

it for all the kind of different ways that

48:15

we want to, I think we want to see

48:17

exactly the why of the symbol. 1,

48:20

the symbol is meant to reinforce the extravagant

48:22

humility of Christ. He came to

48:24

serve and not to be served. This is Matthew 2028. So

48:28

the posture of humility would be

48:30

expected, normal, and the foundational

48:32

posture for all of us who follow

48:34

Jesus. Like, it's like if Jesus did

48:36

it, then we ought to be doing

48:38

the symbol. The symbol also communicates the

48:40

cleansing of sin, which would be made

48:42

possible to the death, burial, resurrection, and

48:44

ascension of Christ. I think when Jesus

48:46

gets unbended knee and He does His

48:48

feet washing, it's telegraphing what's going to

48:50

actually take place on the cross. This

48:54

actually, for an ancient Israel, wouldn't have been new because

48:56

in Exodus 30 and 21 and

48:59

40, this was the normal practice

49:01

of priests who entered into

49:03

the sanctuary. And so the

49:05

symbol is in front of us, Jesus unbended knee washing the

49:07

feet of sinners. Again, I

49:09

quote Jim, it's simple, but it's not

49:12

simplistic. It's a simple act

49:14

of humble service that we

49:16

as followers of Jesus should extend to

49:18

every image bearer on the face of

49:20

this planet. Because

49:22

it expresses and communicates the

49:24

compassion of Christ. And

49:27

it's also an invitation for those

49:30

people to say, hey, we

49:32

want you to participate

49:35

in the beauty that

49:37

comes from entering the family of

49:39

the household and no longer just

49:41

being a guest in the house,

49:43

but a member of the family

49:46

of the house. And what's fascinating

49:48

here is not all people that

49:51

Jesus washed their feet became

49:53

members of the family, but it didn't

49:55

stop Jesus from washing their feet. We talked about this

49:57

in length with Judas, right? So

50:00

on the one side, you've got Peter who

50:02

goes one way and you've got Judas who goes

50:04

a different way. And so

50:06

I think that feet washing symbol is actually really

50:08

important when we get those two kind of ideas

50:10

put together. Yeah, that's beautiful.

50:12

Thank you. I feel like one of

50:15

the things I want to spend as much time as the Lord will

50:17

give me, if I can live to be a hundred, I would love

50:19

it, is

50:22

getting the near Eastern context

50:24

that I do not have around the Bible.

50:26

Cause washing feet is a story we heard growing up

50:28

and then we saw people do it in my twenties

50:30

when they got engaged or when they got married. Right.

50:34

Right. And so, and I'm like,

50:36

there's so much we, I miss, I won't speak for you

50:38

my health, but there's so much I miss because

50:40

I don't know the culture of

50:43

that time. It's why reading you reading

50:45

Esau Macaulay, reading Dr. Nije Gupta, all

50:47

those matters so much to me, uh,

50:50

Christy McClellan, because y'all are

50:52

giving me context around

50:54

when the Bible was written and

50:56

where the Bible was written that helps me to see

50:58

there's a layer here I don't know because I'm reading

51:01

it in the English and I'm reading it sitting in

51:03

New York or Nashville or wherever, you know? Right.

51:06

Okay. So Thursday, the

51:08

last supper Friday, death

51:11

crucifixion, Saturday. What

51:14

is Saturday? I

51:17

mean, also he said three days is

51:19

Friday, Saturday, Sunday, really count as three

51:21

days. Will you help us understand that

51:23

math and then tell us about silent

51:25

silence? Saturday. Yeah. The

51:27

math. So here's the funny thing. I'm

51:31

supposed to be really good at math and I'm

51:33

actually not good at math at all. Annie, it

51:35

skipped a generation. My oldest son is 12. He

51:38

is like a math whiz. And my mom, like

51:40

she like put me in Kumon. She did all

51:42

the things to help me get better at math.

51:44

And it's just, God has not designed me to

51:46

do math. And so this one is actually difficult.

51:48

Um, I'll, I'll punt on that one to some

51:51

other brilliant scholars, but here's, here's the big idea

51:53

on the three days thing that the way that

51:55

they, that the ancient Israelites and also in the

51:57

Greco Roman time period, the way that they did

51:59

math from one a day. They started to when

52:01

it ended was different than ours. There's a difference

52:03

between the sun down and sunrise. And so that

52:06

has some something to do with the three days.

52:08

The one that's more fascinating to me, because

52:11

like the three days is interesting, but at the end of

52:13

the day, it's like Jesus died and then he rose again,

52:15

rose again, right? The thing

52:17

that actually fascinates me is what happens on

52:19

Saturday? Where is he on Saturday?

52:22

And where is he on Saturday? Okay, so you may

52:24

have heard the phrase, Saturday

52:26

is silent Saturday. Yeah. Right.

52:29

And I understand that because in an earthly

52:32

context, it's silent. Jesus

52:34

is in a grave, he's

52:36

in a tomb, and that's the whole deal. Now,

52:39

something I think is really important for us to remember

52:41

is that Jesus, up until the resurrection

52:43

is still living within the context of

52:46

the Old Testament covenant idea. Like

52:48

Jesus has submitted himself willingly,

52:51

this is his humility to

52:53

humanity. Yeah, humanity. To

52:55

his humanity. Yes. Right? He

52:58

willingly subjects himself to the law of

53:00

the Old Testament covenantal kind of idea.

53:03

So here's the big question I want

53:05

us to all ask, where do the

53:07

righteous dead of the Old Testament go?

53:10

Where do the righteous dead of the Old Testament go? All

53:13

throughout the Old Testament, Psalms in

53:15

Abram, think about all the times that Abram, the

53:17

patriarchs say, I wish to be

53:20

gathered up to my fathers. What does that phrase, gathered

53:22

up to my fathers mean? And

53:24

then they talk about, David talks about Sheol, don't

53:27

leave me. Yeah. Sheol. Well,

53:29

what is Sheol? Okay. actually

53:33

had two spaces. You

53:37

had Sheol, which is the covering,

53:39

and then I'm going to use some Greek word from the

53:41

New Testament. You had Hades, and then the

53:43

depths of Hades. So the

53:45

underworld was split into two places.

53:47

At the very depths, at the

53:49

lowest level, that was the place

53:52

where the angelic beings that

53:54

are evil, that have gone

53:56

into rebellion, that they're in chains, they're

53:59

in tars. What's happening second peter

54:01

to for other actually witnessing or all the

54:03

things that are taking place on some Saturday

54:05

but then you also have where the righteous

54:07

debt or and they're waiting for the messiah

54:10

to com so where does she says go

54:12

on Holy Saturday's owner read from if he

54:14

since for this is Paul. We. Shouldn't

54:16

skip any vs of the Bible Solder

54:18

know why we skip these verses? Yes

54:20

as a half of her seventh or

54:22

if is is for seven not racist

54:24

given teach one of us according to

54:26

the measure of Christ gifts for it

54:28

says and escorting. When he ascended on

54:30

high he took the captives captive. But

54:34

he gave gifts to people. But

54:36

what is he ascended mean except

54:38

that he also descendants to the

54:40

lower parts of the earth. The

54:42

one who descended is also the

54:44

one who ascended far above all

54:46

the heavens to fill all things

54:48

have supported the world. The earth.

54:51

The. Lord parts of the resist me up

54:53

for that. If you are out there Duvernay,

54:55

that's exactly right. Okay so here's what it

54:57

means I can. I'll just summarize that are

55:00

for the sake of stamps or in this

55:02

is kind of. This is really fleshed out

55:04

and great deal of in a monograph by

55:07

I think oh gosh I'm I'm liking on

55:09

his name but it is called he Descended

55:11

to the Dead ah and a great great

55:13

books but basically cheese this unholy Saturday because

55:16

he saw me the covenant Old Testament he

55:18

goes were any righteous old testament person would

55:20

got this. Is why when he looks at the thief on

55:22

the cross into stay, you're going to be with me in paradise.

55:25

Am theorized. Today he says yes,

55:27

A day will. Where's the today and

55:29

where's the Paradise Will This is actually

55:31

see all. This is the place where

55:33

the Old Testament righteous ours to Jesus

55:36

goes down to the dad were there

55:38

were there being. Held because again,

55:40

Jesus isn't going. To short

55:42

circuit any process of these deaths, imperial

55:44

resurrection, and a sentence. So if the

55:47

burial, there's an earthly reality to the

55:49

bodies being buried, what is the spiritual

55:51

reality of the body being beard? Where

55:53

would the spirit have gone and the

55:56

authors from the spilled have gone dance

55:58

to see? Also here's Jesus. Can

56:00

you imagine the evil ones down there that

56:02

all of a sudden see Jesus the Messiah the

56:04

panic? Oh, they're on their face. Is that Jesus?

56:07

Yeah, that's Jesus who just walked in like it

56:09

would be like us in a coffee shop It's

56:11

like Taylor Swift walks in the whole place would

56:14

lose their minds, right? Like this is everybody knows

56:16

who Jesus and Jesus walks in and then it

56:18

says that he proclaims So what is he doing?

56:20

I think that he's actually proclaiming the announcement that

56:22

Greek word proclaimed that Ian galleon it has militaristic

56:24

terms, right? And so it's actually a victory cry

56:27

and he's kind of like saying I did it

56:30

The kids the kids today they say it's

56:32

me or he's him. What is that state that?

56:35

Right. My son tried to teach me this other

56:37

day. I couldn't figure it out I'm like what

56:39

I'm like, whatever you're trying to say. Jesus said

56:41

it first bro Because Jesus went down to

56:43

like and he then he takes the

56:45

righteous dead with him And

56:48

he parades them As his

56:50

victory as this plunger in the gospels it talks

56:52

about how um How you can't go into the

56:55

strong man's house unless you bind up the strong

56:57

man and then you take up his book I

56:59

actually think this is a commentary of what's actually

57:01

taking place here Right. He

57:03

goes to the strong man's house He

57:05

gathers up all of the righteous dead

57:07

of the old testament and he parades

57:10

them in front of these Angelic

57:12

beings that have gone into rebellion. I would hold that These

57:14

are the sons of god of genesis 6 and

57:17

they're in tartars They're being bound and

57:19

and they're watching their defeat in front

57:21

of them and there's this really really

57:23

important Uh passage in first Corinthians

57:25

2 8 it says this none

57:27

of the rulers of this age Understood this they're

57:30

talking about you they're talking about the crucifixion for

57:32

if they had they would never have

57:34

crucified the lord of glory Well,

57:37

the rulers of this age are

57:39

paul's greek terms to talk about

57:41

powers principalities and authorities the supernatural

57:44

Cosmic beings that are and like

57:46

that are against god and his

57:48

kingdom. What's it saying? The

57:50

the enemy thought that by sending

57:52

jesus to the cross they had assured their

57:54

victory But all they did

57:56

was they hung themselves On

57:59

the Cross. In this is

58:01

actually a retelling of the Heyman story. right?

58:03

Heyman builds the gallows for more to

58:06

tie. everything can get access to everything

58:08

is connected thinking hunt ducks Yes and

58:10

then the whole time it's like non

58:12

bro, you built the gallows for yourself.

58:15

You got yourself. This. Is what

58:17

the evil powers have done. They think they're

58:19

taking Jesus to the Kroszner thinking that they

58:21

have once, but all that they've done is

58:23

they've actually assert their own demise and she's

58:25

goes down into the grapes. He goes to

58:27

where the registers, he gathers them ups and

58:29

he brings them up on high. Would.

58:31

His word is a go up on high

58:33

the go up on high and in so

58:35

doing this now it makes sense of this

58:37

weird passage was says like all these deaths

58:40

since for a second they appear to all

58:42

the people in this city and they're like

58:44

what is going on and then they go

58:46

on and so this is Hebrews twelve for

58:48

us to date. What is the comfort for

58:50

believers to days have passed. The comfort is

58:52

we don't go to see all because God

58:54

as emptied that place don't. People that are

58:57

left are are the are in the depths

58:59

of Haiti's rights and so were we were

59:01

today's. We actually got. I think this is

59:03

speculative a bit on my part but I

59:05

think we go to eat and I think

59:07

even this taken away in that's where Jesus.

59:09

Is this where his building his kingdom. This

59:11

is why he says I go to prepare

59:13

a place for youth won the world and

59:15

revelations. Does the Garden City of Eden or

59:18

the some show up no longer as your

59:20

garden but as a skinny yeah that's established

59:22

and developed was yeah they think and spatial

59:24

working terms how how do you how does

59:26

that help people gotta be work and the

59:28

gonna use of the can be bringing what

59:30

it sees as soon And so I think

59:32

that that's actually the hope that we have

59:34

right now is that we bypass only go

59:36

straight to this edemic place and thence this

59:38

is the beautiful picture that Cs Lewis pains

59:40

in. the last

59:43

battle of the new heavens and

59:45

the new earth and it's the

59:47

reclaiming of the see delek vision

59:49

that god had always started and

59:51

yachts so sound saturday matters jesus

59:53

on silence saturday's like he was

59:55

not being silent jesus was actually

59:57

proclaiming the gospel jesus was robbing

59:59

the great of death, Jesus was

1:00:01

setting the captives free. Jesus is

1:00:03

victorious. And that's what Silent Saturday

1:00:06

is actually setting us up for

1:00:08

for the resurrection. That is a way

1:00:11

to get ready for Holy Week right

1:00:13

there, Dr. Joel Montemagli. That is how we do

1:00:15

it. I mean the Haman part.

1:00:17

I'll just never, I'm like, how

1:00:20

did they, like God told a story

1:00:22

through Esther in front of all

1:00:24

the demons and they had no idea that he

1:00:26

was telling their story. No, but they were gonna

1:00:29

hang themselves. Yep. Dude,

1:00:31

that is so good. God plays the

1:00:33

long game all the time. He plays

1:00:35

the long game. Amen. Because

1:00:38

it's about going through. It's not about going around. Yeah,

1:00:41

yeah, absolutely. God in our lives. Oh, okay. Is

1:00:43

there anything we didn't say that you want to

1:00:45

make sure we say anything you want to say

1:00:47

about Easter or Holy Week that you want to

1:00:49

make sure people get as they're thinking through this

1:00:51

week and living through Holy Week? I

1:00:54

mean I think that through the through thing is still

1:00:56

the the place that I want us to go back

1:00:58

to and spend time in. One

1:01:01

of the most important things I

1:01:03

felt like that I'm learning in

1:01:05

throughout this humility message is how

1:01:09

hurried I am in my life. You

1:01:11

know, I'm like, I'm like hurried and

1:01:13

and I'm seeing it with my kids.

1:01:15

I'm seeing it with vocation and work

1:01:18

and ministry. I'm hurrying to achieve something

1:01:20

and in the hurrying to achieve something,

1:01:22

I'm actually missing who

1:01:24

I'm becoming in the process. And

1:01:26

what a tragedy. You know, like what a

1:01:28

tragedy to hurry to get somewhere and you get there and you look

1:01:30

at yourself and you're like, am I even

1:01:33

happy with who I am? Is this even the

1:01:35

person that God wanted me to be when I

1:01:37

got to the destination? And so I think during

1:01:39

Holy Week it really is this invitation to slow

1:01:41

down, to live an unhurried

1:01:43

existence, to look

1:01:46

at Jesus's life and say, wow, Jesus submitted

1:01:48

himself in holy humility to every

1:01:50

part of the human existence. He didn't

1:01:52

short. That's why I think on Saturday

1:01:54

so important. He didn't short circuit the

1:01:56

process one ounce. He went through each

1:01:58

of those moments so that, Philippians 2,

1:02:00

8 and 9, he might be exalted, you

1:02:03

know, and then in Ephesians it says that

1:02:05

you and I right now we're seated with

1:02:07

Christ at the right hand of the Father

1:02:10

and it says fasting this thought that right

1:02:12

now that we could be experiencing the human

1:02:14

and heavy heartache of a fallen world but

1:02:16

simultaneously we have we're anchored in the promise

1:02:19

of Jesus who sits at the right hand

1:02:21

of the cross. Jesus doesn't get to the

1:02:23

right hand of the cross unless he goes

1:02:25

through the process of the Holy

1:02:27

Week and he invites you and I to be

1:02:30

a people who go through and this is

1:02:32

where I just really do believe Annie that

1:02:34

this humility message is so important because humility

1:02:36

is not a checkbox that you check and

1:02:39

that you move on from. Humility is in

1:02:41

fact the soil of the Christian life that

1:02:43

we're to live from and like any good

1:02:45

soil we have to come back to and

1:02:47

we have to tend to that soil and

1:02:50

so during this Holy Week I would just

1:02:52

give an encouragement to tend to the soil

1:02:54

of humility that is in your life and

1:02:56

just to see where are the presence

1:02:59

where's the presence of Jesus because

1:03:01

that's what we're aiming for. That's beautiful.

1:03:04

Dr. Joel thank you for coming on that Sounds Fun. I hope it

1:03:06

is the first of many times. When

1:03:09

you say can you come my answer is yes.

1:03:11

Okay great great considerate we will we will need

1:03:13

you some more and talk about some more weird

1:03:16

Bible-y things and you

1:03:18

do a beautiful job in your

1:03:20

books and and in on socials

1:03:23

of increasing my curiosity around scripture

1:03:26

and around who Jesus is and I think that's how we

1:03:28

keep falling in love with someone over and over again

1:03:30

as we stay curious about them so thank you for helping

1:03:32

me to continue to fall in love over

1:03:35

and over again with Jesus I'm really thankful

1:03:37

for your work. You're welcome so awesome thank

1:03:39

you. Oh

1:03:41

y'all isn't he brilliant isn't he

1:03:44

brilliant what a perfect episode has

1:03:46

me thinking about so many things

1:03:48

as we go into Holy Week

1:03:50

I hope that you will take

1:03:52

some extra time next week maybe

1:03:55

listen again grab Joel's book The

1:03:57

Hidden Peace and read through

1:03:59

it next week or just

1:04:01

sit and think and use your time

1:04:03

to listen to music and

1:04:05

maybe listen to the gospels and

1:04:08

just maybe a little more time

1:04:10

this next week sitting

1:04:12

and thinking about what this week

1:04:14

holds historically and what Easter is

1:04:17

really about. Make sure you go also follow Joel

1:04:19

on social media telling thanks so much for being

1:04:21

on the show. I hope he

1:04:23

comes back very soon and listen, him

1:04:25

on our friend Blurry Creatures podcast,

1:04:28

wild episodes guys. Go and listen if you want to, they

1:04:30

are wild, they're great. If you have

1:04:33

any questions from this episode you can drop them

1:04:35

in the Q&A box on Spotify if you're

1:04:37

a Spotify listener like me or send them

1:04:39

to us on Instagram at ThatSoundsFun podcast. Make

1:04:41

sure you're following over there too. We get

1:04:43

to answer a lot of people's questions. Show

1:04:45

you extra clips, extra stuff from each episode.

1:04:48

It's really fun. If you need

1:04:50

anything else from me, you know I'm embarrassingly easy

1:04:52

to find. Any up downs on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook,

1:04:54

all the places you may need me, that

1:04:56

is how you can send me. I

1:04:58

think that's it for me today friend. Go out or stay

1:05:00

home. Do something that sounds fun to you and I will

1:05:02

do the same. What sounds fun to

1:05:04

me today and this weekend going into Holy

1:05:07

Week is getting outside a little bit

1:05:09

more, getting quiet a little bit more and

1:05:11

I'm really looking forward to it. Y'all

1:05:13

have a great weekend and remember no shows

1:05:15

airing next week for Holy Week but

1:05:17

we will be back here on Monday, April

1:05:20

1st, the day we start our Let's

1:05:22

Read the Gospels Guided Journal with

1:05:24

a really special conversation and the start

1:05:26

of a new series with our friend.