0:01

Tonight, the Trump jury, seven New Yorkers

0:03

have already been seated, as the judge

0:05

signals the trial could be ahead of

0:08

schedule. Plus Trump has big

0:10

plans for his media company, but is

0:12

streaming really the thing that will reverse

0:14

the stock slide? And

0:16

Republicans are close to firing their

0:19

House Speaker again because they

0:21

don't have anything better to do as

0:23

the 11th hour gets underway on this

0:26

Tuesday night. Good

0:32

evening once again, I'm Stephanie Ruhl live from 30

0:34

Rock Center and we are now 203 days

0:37

away from the election. Donald Trump's

0:39

first criminal trial appears to now

0:42

be moving at a lot faster

0:44

pace than anyone expected. This

0:46

was day two of jury selection and

0:48

by late this afternoon, seven

0:50

New York jurors were sworn in. If

0:53

this pace continues, we could actually see

0:55

opening statements next week. The attorneys spent

0:57

most of the day combing through old

1:00

social media posts from potential jurors

1:02

pointing out any signs of potential bias.

1:04

My colleague Laura Jarrett has all the

1:06

latest. Of

1:09

those selected so far, a salesperson,

1:11

an oncology nurse, two attorneys, an

1:14

IT consultant, a teacher and a

1:16

software engineer. The slow

1:18

moving vetting process springing into

1:20

an animated focus group like

1:22

Atmosphere with today's pool of

1:24

nearly two dozen Manhattan residents

1:27

offering their unvarnished views of

1:29

the presumptive GOP nominee to

1:31

his face under questioning by

1:33

the prosecution and defense. One

1:35

man calling Mr. Trump, quote, fascinating

1:38

and mysterious, one revealing he

1:40

was a big fan of the apprentice in

1:42

middle school, a woman saying, quote,

1:44

President Trump speaks his mind. And I'd

1:46

rather that than someone who's in office

1:48

who you don't know what they're thinking.

1:51

In a fourth perspective, juror telling attorneys, I'm

1:53

a Democrat, so there you go. But I

1:55

walk in there and he's a defendant. And

1:57

that's all he is. The defense team. raising

2:00

successful objections to a handful by

2:02

pointing out past social media posts,

2:05

including one who said, lock him

2:07

up. While the judge fumed

2:09

at Mr. Trump for appearing to

2:11

mutter something, warning, I will not

2:13

have any jurors intimidated in this

2:15

courtroom. Jury selection is

2:18

ongoing until 12 people and six

2:20

alternates are selected. The former president

2:22

is accused of falsifying business records,

2:24

a low-level felony. By mischaracterizing a

2:27

hush money payment, he allegedly directed

2:29

Michael Cohen make to Stormy Daniels

2:31

as legal expenses on his company's

2:34

books. Mr. Trump pleaded not guilty.

2:38

And on the way out of the courtroom

2:40

today, the former president had his own words

2:42

for the judge. We

2:45

think we have heard how he conflicted

2:47

the judge in the case and he's

2:49

rushing this trial. Meanwhile

2:53

the Supreme Court heard arguments that could

2:55

impact another Trump case, the one about

2:57

election interference in 2020. The

3:00

Justice Department has charged hundreds of

3:03

rioters involved in the Capitol attack

3:05

with obstructing an official proceeding. That

3:08

is one of the same charges

3:10

Jack Smith brought against Donald Trump.

3:12

But today the Supreme Court's conservative

3:14

majority appeared skeptical about whether that

3:16

charge can be used in these

3:18

cases. A ruling is expected

3:21

sometime in June. With that, let's get

3:23

smarter with the help of our lead-off panel and

3:25

we need the help tonight. Luckily,

3:27

Susan Glasser is your staff writer for

3:29

The New Yorker, Mark Joseph Stern, senior

3:31

writer covering courts and the law at

3:33

Slate, and Harry Lippmann joins us, former

3:36

U.S. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney

3:38

general. Harry, you

3:40

know I'm going to you first. We

3:42

already have seven jurors on the second

3:44

day. That's extraordinary. Yesterday I felt like

3:46

we were hearing it was going to

3:48

take weeks and weeks. What is

3:50

your take on where this trial is right now? Yeah,

3:53

you know as Laura said it was sort of

3:55

first kind of slow and then all at

3:57

once. I think the main reason we have this

4:00

quickly Steph is because merchant at the

4:02

beginning let 48 folks go. Anyone

4:05

who said, I don't think I can

4:07

be fair in other instances with fewer

4:09

jurors to choose from that would have

4:11

prompted retail discussions. Well, can you really,

4:13

what do you think? And he just

4:16

said, let's just get rid of them

4:18

now and get down to business with

4:20

the people who aren't trying to say

4:22

they can't be fair and that pretty

4:24

quickly window down to a point where

4:27

they had to play their cards. That

4:29

is the golden ticket of a peremptory

4:31

challenge or argue challenge for cause. And

4:33

now boom, we're at seven. And you're

4:35

right at this pace, we could be

4:37

done in short order. We still need

4:39

18 and it's going

4:42

to get dicey because they've each side

4:44

has used six of their 10 peremptory

4:46

challenges, which they can use for any

4:48

reason, unless it's racial animus and

4:50

it's, and they're going to be out of them. And

4:52

they're going to have to take some chances. It'll be,

4:54

it'll be wrenching. We won't be sure,

4:57

but still at this pace,

4:59

you know, it could be as soon as

5:01

tomorrow. And that would, or I mean, as

5:03

soon as, at the end of the week

5:05

and with opening statements on Monday. Mark,

5:07

did you expect that we would be here

5:09

this quickly? Seven jurors day two. I keep

5:11

thinking those seven people, what

5:13

are they doing tonight? Absolutely

5:17

not. It's a stunning turnaround from Monday's

5:19

rather slow pace, as Harry said. And

5:21

I think a really positive sign that

5:23

this trial will move forward than a

5:25

lot of us fear, including me, you

5:27

know, one of the big gambles

5:30

with bringing this case in New York

5:32

is that as everyone knows, the jury

5:34

pool is going to lean democratic. We

5:36

always knew that Trump's attorneys were going

5:38

to seize upon that, not only to

5:41

delegitimize the charges, but to try to

5:43

prevent 12 men and women

5:45

plus six alternates from serving on that jury

5:48

to say it's just impossible to

5:50

find enough impartial New Yorkers who

5:52

can sit and judge impartially a

5:54

former president, a Republican president of

5:56

the United States. And the judge

5:58

in this case has. admirably

6:00

set all of those concerns aside.

6:02

He has really, I think, excelled

6:04

at differentiating between mere knowledge

6:07

of Donald Trump, you know, jurors who say,

6:09

of course I know who he is, but

6:11

I don't have strong feelings, and others who

6:13

come in saying, yeah, I know him, I

6:16

don't like him, I don't want to be

6:18

here. And again, as Harry said, by doing

6:20

that, he was able to nail down a

6:23

number of very clearly impartial, fair-minded New Yorkers.

6:25

Look, they're probably registered Democrats, at least some

6:27

of them, but that shouldn't

6:29

matter. And in our court system, you

6:31

are allowed to sit on a jury

6:33

like this with your own views about

6:36

politics and even about politicians, as long

6:38

as you feel you can enter that

6:40

courtroom, set all of it aside, and

6:42

decide whether or not prosecutors have proved

6:44

these charges beyond a reasonable doubt. Yeah.

6:46

And reminder, this is happening in

6:48

a New York courtroom because that

6:50

is the state where the alleged

6:52

crimes were committed. I saw Alina

6:54

Haber on TV today saying it

6:56

was no coincidence, it's pure strategy

6:58

that this would be happening in

7:00

blue New York. It's happening in

7:03

New York because that's where the

7:05

crimes he's charged with were

7:07

allegedly committed. Susan, our

7:09

colleague, Von Hilliard, actually spoke to one juror

7:11

after she was dismissed. And I want to

7:13

share what she said about the former president.

7:17

I had never seen him in person before, you know, and

7:20

you see someone blown

7:22

up so larger than life, on the

7:25

media for so many years. To

7:30

see them in person is very jarring.

7:32

And you get the sense that it's

7:34

like, oh, this is just another

7:36

guy. I guess when you're on any jury,

7:39

it's, you have elements of

7:41

that person's future in your hands. So

7:44

whether it was Trump or whether it was

7:46

some stranger

7:49

off the street in Manhattan who I had never

7:51

heard of before. If you commit to sitting

7:55

on the jury, you

7:57

can change that person's life.

8:00

life's better. Susan,

8:02

the nation has seen this man

8:04

be sworn in as the

8:06

leader of the free world. We have seen

8:09

him under investigations. We have seen him through

8:11

impeachments. We have seen him through seemingly

8:14

countless political scandals. What

8:16

might be the biggest challenge for these jurors?

8:21

You know, it's an awful lot to

8:23

ask an ordinary American to step outside

8:25

of their daily life and to basically

8:27

decide the fate of the free world.

8:30

And it's, you know, there are enormous potential

8:32

consequences to this case and to the three

8:34

other criminal cases that are still pending. We

8:36

don't know if there'll be trials in those,

8:38

but it's a huge

8:40

burden. Our system envisions a

8:42

jury of one's peers. But let's be real

8:44

that Donald Trump is sui generis in a

8:47

way, right? He is not just

8:49

an average Joe citizen in

8:51

this context. And the burden

8:54

on this case and on all the cases is

8:57

the credibility of the legal system, it's

8:59

the credibility of individual jurors. And of

9:01

course, it's the question of whether we're

9:03

going to have someone who's going to

9:05

be a convict or the president of

9:07

the United States. Those are not generally

9:09

speaking the choices that we present everyday

9:11

Americans with. So I'm very sympathetic, you

9:14

know, to these folks coming here and by the

9:16

way, inviting the scrutiny. All they did

9:18

was answer a summons from the state

9:20

of New York to show up for

9:23

jury duty. And then you have Donald

9:25

Trump's lawyers combing through years on their

9:27

social media. In one case I was

9:29

looking at today, one of the jurors,

9:31

it was their husband's social media accounts

9:34

from years ago that were being combed

9:36

over by the lawyers for Donald Trump.

9:38

That's got to be a jarring experience,

9:40

even for the most jaded of New

9:42

Yorkers. There were some of those characters

9:45

who showed up today as well. But

9:47

it's really it's it underscores how extraordinary

9:49

I think this moment really is. Imagine

9:52

you're an average New Yorker who postponed

9:54

jury duty three times, right? You got

9:56

vacation, you got a dentist appointment, you

9:58

got a work assignment. And

10:00

then you get hit with this today. Harry,

10:03

here's what I really want to know because

10:05

the judge made it very clear that

10:07

it was his courtroom. When

10:10

he very sternly told Donald Trump, he could

10:12

not intimidate jurors. Donald Trump now

10:14

has to sit there day in

10:17

and day out in a situation

10:19

he's never in. In a situation

10:21

he has no control of or he is

10:23

not special. He knows all this evident is

10:25

coming out with witnesses that are

10:28

about to lay it out there under

10:30

oath. What is this going to

10:32

do to him? What are we likely going to

10:34

see from Donald J. Trump? Yeah,

10:37

I think this is a huge factor that

10:39

people haven't really absorbed. He's a guy who

10:41

goes where he wants, when he wants, does

10:44

what he wants, says what he wants.

10:46

And he's got to stay in that chair

10:48

today. He got up rated basically for a

10:50

little mutter to

10:52

the crowd and Murchin just came down

10:55

on him. He cannot go next week

10:57

to the Supreme Court argument. He's taking

10:59

under advisement is the judge, whether he

11:02

can see his son's graduation. He is

11:04

not in charge. And this is a

11:06

guy who not only always has

11:08

been, but a big part of

11:10

his image is doing exactly what

11:13

he wants. And now there's long

11:15

periods that are boring in court.

11:17

We saw him possibly fall asleep

11:19

a couple of times and he's

11:21

just got to stay there and

11:23

take it. I

11:25

think he will be really stewing inside and

11:27

we'll see whether things explode in court. I

11:30

do think some of the jury, the

11:33

final kind of fights over jurors

11:35

will be more impacted and

11:37

impassioned. We'll see that happen. But

11:39

this has to be, you know, in

11:42

a way his worst nightmare, just having

11:44

to sit there and like a bad

11:47

student in the corner who hasn't done

11:49

his homework. That is not Donald Trump's

11:51

life and never has been. Susan,

11:53

how's he going to handle it? Right? This

11:56

is somebody he's never worked for anyone else.

11:58

He's never obeyed anyone else. wrote

12:00

a book on how he operates? What's

12:02

this going to be like? Look,

12:06

Donald Trump being forced to sit quietly

12:08

and keep his mouth shut is

12:11

going to be an important personal challenge for

12:13

him. But I'm, you know, I'm really struck

12:15

by this idea that, you

12:17

know, criminal defendants, right, in a way that

12:19

is a very not

12:22

dehumanizing experience, but it

12:24

is really you are out of your control

12:26

as long as you face these charges, right,

12:28

you are in the control of the state,

12:30

you're in the control of the judge in

12:32

the court, you have to show up by

12:34

the way, when it's a criminal case,

12:36

and not just a civil case. And

12:38

here it is, this man is this

12:40

close, according to polls,

12:43

many polls show that he's

12:45

leading in the effort to

12:47

return to the Oval Office to

12:49

have the power over America's vast nuclear

12:52

arsenal. And he's got to sit in

12:54

this courtroom and listen to a judge

12:56

who doesn't like it when he mutters

12:59

under his breath. I mean, I just

13:01

it strikes me that this is perhaps

13:03

the most jarring juxtaposition we could imagine

13:06

in this election year. For me, it

13:08

sums up the tragedy and the absurdity

13:10

of 2024 in so many ways. But

13:13

will he explode? It's certainly possible.

13:16

But you might also just fall asleep. Well,

13:18

it will be a visual either way. All right, Mark,

13:20

new topic. The Supreme Court has

13:22

heard this case about the obstruction charge

13:24

used in the January 6th prosecutions. Help

13:27

us understand what is at stake here.

13:29

What did you hear from the justices?

13:31

Walk us through it. Yeah,

13:33

so this is a charge that has been used

13:35

in 350 prosecutions

13:38

of January 6th rioters also

13:40

forms the centerpiece of special

13:43

counsel, Jack Smith's indictment against

13:45

Donald Trump for his

13:47

own efforts to steal the election. It

13:49

is a major component of the Biden

13:52

administration's effort to hold people accountable for

13:54

January 6 and what occurred and led

13:56

up to it. And yet I heard

13:59

five or six conservative

14:01

justices sounding very skeptical that

14:03

this particular law, this particular

14:05

charge, is not being applied

14:07

fairly or legally to individuals

14:09

in fault of January 6th.

14:12

I heard a number of justices

14:14

like Neil Gorsuch, Clarence Thomas, even

14:16

Brett Kavanaugh, suggest that the purpose

14:19

of this law was not really

14:21

to target the obstruction of a

14:24

major proceeding in Congress, but

14:26

simply to target individuals who

14:28

destroy or alter evidence, which

14:30

in my view is really quite

14:32

a cramped and unbelievable reading of

14:34

the text. I mean, this was

14:36

a law enacted in the wake

14:39

of the Enron scandal that specifically

14:41

says it shall be a crime

14:43

to corruptly obstruct an official proceeding,

14:45

including a congressional proceeding. What we

14:47

had here was January 6th rioters

14:49

attempting to obstruct the counting of

14:51

electoral votes on January 6th. I

14:54

think the case for this law's application here

14:56

is very plain, that the conservative justices kept

14:59

saying over and over again, well, could

15:01

this apply to peaceful protesters? Could

15:03

it apply to someone who pulled

15:05

a fire alarm to stop a

15:07

vote? Neil Gorsuch brought that up

15:09

clearly alluding to Representative Jamal Bowman

15:11

about a year ago and suggesting

15:13

that it was either overbroad or

15:15

too vague to be applied to

15:17

these cases. If the court does

15:19

hold that, this would be a

15:21

huge shock to the entire prosecution

15:23

of January 6th, because it would

15:25

not only mean that hundreds of

15:27

existing prosecutions and even

15:29

some convictions are on very shaky

15:31

ground or perhaps even overturned, it would

15:33

mean that the court would be cutting

15:35

the heart out of the January 6th

15:37

indictment against Trump. Jack Smith

15:40

would have to come back, probably add

15:42

new charges, reorient and redesign his theory

15:44

of the case. That would extend this

15:46

case even more and probably push his

15:48

trial if it ever happens even further

15:50

down the road. My

15:53

goodness, Mark, Harry, Susan, thank you.

15:55

I see Harry frantically wanting to

15:57

respond. I'm so sorry we're out

15:59

of time. Here's the good news, Harry. You

16:01

know you're coming back next week. Thank

16:03

you all for being here. In other

16:06

Trump news, though, I want to share with you,

16:08

the Trump's media stock, DJT, was down

16:11

again today after they floated this

16:13

idea of starting a streaming service,

16:16

which to a non-investor might sound

16:18

compelling. We know Donald Trump loves

16:20

TV, but launching a

16:22

streaming service is extremely hard and

16:24

it costs billions of dollars. Disney

16:27

is still trying to figure it out,

16:29

and they've got Marvel and Star Wars.

16:32

But what is more noteworthy about what happened today

16:34

is that only 7 million shares

16:37

of this stock traded. That is

16:39

a very small number. Why does

16:41

that matter? Well, it signals that

16:43

institutional investors, real investors, pension funds,

16:46

insurance companies, Wall Street money managers,

16:49

they're not buying this stock. They can't.

16:51

They have a responsibility, a

16:53

fiduciary responsibility, to make sound

16:56

investments. And this company, the

16:58

underlying business, is not sound.

17:01

So as we reported yesterday, yes, Donald

17:03

Trump has 80 million shares and he's

17:05

going to get more free money for

17:07

him, essentially, on paper. But

17:10

eventually, when allowed to sell

17:12

those shares, he needs to

17:14

find big buyers. And

17:17

with only 7 million trading in the market,

17:19

like on a day like this, that is not

17:21

a good sign. It is easier said

17:23

than done. I'll keep you up on this. When

17:26

we come back, Mike Johnson

17:28

refuses to resign as Republicans

17:30

inch closer to ousting their

17:33

own speaker again. We're getting

17:35

into the never ending GOP

17:37

chaos and later. She

17:39

is the number one draft pick in the

17:41

WNBA. But Kaitlyn Clark's

17:43

salary is a fraction of her

17:45

male counterparts. The 11th

17:47

hour just getting underway on a Tuesday night.

18:00

view an absurd notion that someone would bring

18:02

a vacate motion. It is not helpful to

18:04

the cause. It is not helpful to the

18:06

country. It does not help the House Republicans

18:08

advance our agenda, which is in the best

18:10

interest of the American people here. But I'm

18:12

going to tell you that I am not

18:14

concerned about this. I am going to do

18:16

my job. Well, it's

18:19

got to be somewhat concerned and

18:21

it can't be that absurd because

18:23

the Speaker of the House felt

18:25

the need to respond right there.

18:27

House Speaker Mike Johnson took the

18:29

extraordinary step of pledging publicly not

18:32

to resign from his job. He did that,

18:34

of course, because earlier in the

18:36

day, GOP Congressman Thomas Massey announced

18:39

he would join Marjorie Taylor Greene's

18:41

motion to oust Johnson. Again, both

18:43

Republicans, he's a Republican Speaker of

18:45

the House. All of this is

18:48

because Johnson unveiled plans to introduce

18:50

separate aid bills to Ukraine, Israel,

18:52

and Taiwan. This is an

18:54

absolute mess. And come Friday, House

18:56

Republicans will be left with one

18:59

single seat majority, leaving Johnson's speakership

19:01

in its most vulnerable place since

19:03

he won the gavel six months

19:05

ago. For more, let's bring in

19:07

Axios political reporter, my old friend Hans

19:09

Nichols and Amanda Carpenter, writer and editor

19:11

for Protect Democracy and

19:13

former senior staffer to Republican senators

19:16

Jim DeMint and Ted Cruz. Hans,

19:18

for weeks, it seemed like

19:20

this effort to oust Johnson was dead in

19:23

the water. How did it come back? Just

19:26

math, right? I mean, his margins are so slim.

19:28

I don't know how dead it was. Like, this

19:31

was always this is sort of Damocles hanging over

19:33

him. You know, we can all do the math.

19:35

It's pretty basic. Even I can do it. And

19:37

that is he loses to Republicans. He's going to

19:40

need two Democrats. And it's a

19:42

similar dynamic for all three and

19:44

potentially a fourth bill going forward

19:46

for every little bit of Republican

19:48

or a lot of Republican support

19:50

that seeps out from his vote.

19:52

He has to find more

19:54

Democratic support to make it up and, you know,

19:57

not a big margin for error. Amanda,

19:59

there's There's a chance that Johnson will

20:01

survive this, but how long can the

20:03

House GOP survive being at

20:06

the mercy of these extremists? Every

20:08

time more water leaks out of the boat, the

20:11

boat gets weaker. Yeah.

20:13

Here's the reality that Mike

20:15

Johnson faces. If he

20:17

wants to have a functional House,

20:19

he is going to have to

20:22

make deals with the Democrats and

20:24

reality-based Republicans, because should he choose

20:27

to try to get Marjorie Taylor

20:29

Greene's approval for every bill, that

20:31

is an impossible task. She threatens

20:34

him every time he makes a

20:36

move that she doesn't like. He

20:40

doesn't want to admit this, but that is the

20:42

reality that he is trapped in. Until

20:44

he decides to actually make a power move

20:46

and say, this is the way I'm going

20:49

to run this House and have an assertive

20:51

role, which I don't expect him to take,

20:53

because no Republican leader has been able to

20:55

do this thus far, he will be subject

20:57

to the demands of Marjorie Taylor Greene for

20:59

the rest of his tenure, as long as

21:01

she sees fit. But he

21:04

just went to Mar-a-Lago last week to hug

21:06

it out with Donald Trump. Didn't that bring

21:08

him into the good graces of Marjorie Taylor

21:10

Greene? How do things worsen this week? It

21:12

was just a win in Mar-a-Lago, like, five

21:14

days ago. Yeah, but you have

21:16

to look at the sort of power role that she

21:18

is playing here. We don't want to admit this because

21:20

like Donald Trump, she's kind of this circus-like figure. But

21:23

look at what she's doing. She's making

21:25

the Speaker of the House respond to

21:27

her directly, saying, I will not resign.

21:30

She is an impeachment manager walking over

21:32

articles of impeachment to the Senate for

21:34

the Americans. And

21:36

she has a leading role in this House.

21:38

And it's like, no one wants to admit

21:41

this fact because it's so embarrassing. But that

21:43

is what is laid bare here every single

21:45

day this goes on. I

21:48

want to ask you, Hans, I

21:51

actually want to ask both of

21:53

you about Senator Tom Cotton, who

21:55

knows better. He is now publicly

21:57

encouraging drivers to drag Gaza ceasefire

21:59

protesters. from blocked roads. Hans,

22:02

what has this accomplished? Is

22:04

Tom Cotton just trying to bait folks

22:06

on the left? Like he hasn't heard

22:08

from the squad in a while. He

22:10

wants to make sure Democrats are still

22:12

divided and going after President Biden because

22:15

he knows this is absurd to say something like

22:17

this. Well,

22:20

I'm gonna do something that, you know, reporters probably shouldn't

22:22

try to do, which is try to get inside of

22:24

a politician's head. Do it. One, you

22:26

know, I mean, what Cotton is basically saying,

22:28

take matters in your own hands, right? Like

22:31

throw them over the bridge, right? And Arkansas

22:33

was his suggestion there, at least if I

22:35

read the quotes properly. I

22:37

would just look at this more of like Tom Cotton

22:39

is trying to speak to a part of his party

22:42

that is deeply frustrated with

22:45

these voters. And he is trying to

22:47

align themselves with that. And, you

22:49

know, none of us, the three of us are all,

22:51

let's just assume we're smart for the evening. None

22:53

of us know what's gonna happen in the future. None of

22:56

us know who's gonna be president in 2025. But

23:00

I guarantee you that there are a lot

23:02

of Republican senators that want to kind

23:04

of carry a Trump adjacent mantle. And they

23:07

wanna tap into this deep, populist anger

23:09

that Amanda kind of well knows from

23:11

her time with Senator Cruz. There's a populist

23:13

current in this country that is fed

23:15

up and it gets very upset when there

23:17

are protesters and we have the right

23:19

to protest in this country and I'm

23:21

gonna have to dust off the John Stuart

23:23

Mill behind me on when your right

23:25

to protest impedes my right to movement, right?

23:29

But he's tapping into something and he's signaling

23:31

something and that is that he's willing to

23:33

play the culture wars as well. But

23:36

culture wars doesn't really get at it, right? He's

23:38

kind of talking about the sort of

23:40

this conservative id and

23:42

he's trying to address that. Again,

23:44

I'm hypothesizing a little bit

23:47

here. But to me, that's

23:49

what Cotton is doing. I

23:51

don't know, Amanda, do you agree? Or is what

23:53

he's really trying to do trigger the left? I

23:57

don't think he's trying to do or play.

24:00

acting at anything. And that's because I read

24:02

the New York Times editorial he wrote during

24:04

the Black Lives Matters protests in which he

24:06

called for the Insurrection Act to be invoked

24:08

so that President Trump could send troops to

24:10

U.S. cities to put down those protests. I

24:12

mean, that was so inflammatory. I believe the New York Times

24:15

took it back. It was a big kerfuffle. But

24:17

when he said this, I mean, he said

24:19

it with intention. He posted the video and

24:21

essentially he said, yes, this is how it's

24:23

done. I do think that

24:25

this is something a little bit different than

24:28

populism and more of an authoritarian strain in

24:30

which we like to use

24:32

force to put down political opponents

24:35

that we do not like. And I'm not

24:37

I'm certainly not justifying a

24:39

violent protest. And I don't like people

24:41

shutting down bridges. But this is not

24:43

how it is done, as Tom Cotton

24:45

said, on social media. I mean, this

24:47

is an open invitation for vigilantism. And

24:49

the first thing I immediately thought of

24:51

was, you know, on the same day

24:53

today, Kyle Rittenhouse, you

24:55

know, the boy who went

24:57

to Wisconsin to shoot Black

24:59

Lives Matter protesters is

25:02

speaking at Kent State University at

25:04

the invitation of Turning

25:07

Point USA. I mean,

25:10

that is a really jarring

25:12

circumstance where he is essentially

25:14

saying, this is how it's

25:16

done, just like Tom Cotton.

25:18

I mean, that's the strain I think

25:20

happening that is much more scary than

25:22

populism. Well, there you have it, Amanda

25:25

Hans and Hans. Thank you for the

25:27

opportunity for the three of us to be smart,

25:30

at least for the night. When

25:32

we come back, despite her

25:34

superstar power, Caitlin Clark's rookie

25:36

contract is a sliver of

25:39

what the guys make. Some people are fired

25:41

up. We're going to talk about gender and

25:43

pay disparity in the world of sports. We've

25:45

also got to talk about the

25:47

way the business operates, because that's

25:49

what dictates pay. The 11th hour

25:52

continues. something

26:00

I wrote down on a piece of paper when I was in

26:02

like second grade, like get a basketball

26:04

scholarship, playing the WNBA. Like this is always something

26:06

I wanted to do. Well,

26:09

girl, she did it. Caitlin Clark is

26:11

living her and so many other girls

26:13

dreams. The university of Iowa

26:15

All-Star is headed to the WNBA after

26:17

the Indiana fever made her their number

26:19

one pick in the draft last night.

26:22

There's a lot of fans out there that are

26:24

outraged by her salary. She's expected to make 338,000

26:26

bucks over four years. The

26:30

number one pick in the NBA signed last year

26:32

a $55 million four-year

26:35

contract. On paper, this

26:37

disparity sounds crazy, but

26:39

the reality is a

26:41

lot more complicated than

26:43

that. And I beg you to be

26:45

patient, pay attention and hang with us.

26:49

My dear friend, NBC correspondent, Stephanie Goss

26:51

is with us. She interviewed Clark ahead

26:53

of draft day and Jamel Hill is

26:55

here, contributing writer to the Atlantic and

26:57

host of the must listen to podcasts.

27:00

Jamel Hill is unfathered. I am

27:02

so glad you ladies are both

27:04

here because we are hearing experts,

27:06

novices, fans just furious today. So

27:09

is it fair to compare the

27:11

NBA and the WNBA to just

27:13

look at the television rights? The

27:16

NBA makes $2.7 billion a year. Well,

27:19

the WNBA so far only

27:22

makes $60 million a year. And this

27:24

is a business that dictates pay. No,

27:29

it is totally unfair because

27:31

I think that people, by the way, welcome people

27:33

who are just now tuning into this conversation about

27:36

pay disparity, which by the way, the women in

27:38

this league have been having for years now. Understand

27:42

that you have to throw the NBA comparison out the window. The NBA

27:44

had a 50 year here. If

27:47

you just absolutely insist on comparing

27:49

the two league, why

27:52

don't you compare them at the same stage? The WNBA

27:54

is 27 years in. Go back and look at where

27:56

the NBA was at 27 years. in.

28:00

It was not a billion dollar league. In

28:02

fact, in the 70s before Magic

28:04

Johnson and Larry Bird kind of got it

28:06

off life support, there was widespread talk that

28:09

this league was going to be defunct. And

28:11

it took some major star power,

28:14

continued investment, a

28:16

lot of things to fall into place

28:18

in order for it to become the

28:20

billion dollar league that it is now.

28:22

What I hate about this conversation is

28:24

people see a quick tweet about these

28:26

salaries and they use it and weaponize

28:28

it against women to denigrate them for

28:30

something that isn't truly their fault. I mean,

28:33

this is still a relatively young league and

28:35

this doesn't excuse the pay, but they also

28:37

have to understand too that the planners who've

28:39

been fighting for better pay equity, they

28:41

are not fighting against getting paid

28:43

with the number one pick in the NBA draft

28:45

is getting. They are fighting to get more of

28:48

the revenue actually being brought into

28:50

the WABA. So when people see this,

28:52

they automatically assume that the number one

28:54

pick that Caitlin Clark expects to

28:56

be paid like Victor Wibben-Yoner, she does

28:58

not, nor any other one, number

29:01

one pick in the history of the WNBA.

29:03

They just want now that the league is

29:05

in a healthier place, they want to make

29:07

more money. It's just as simple as that. Steph,

29:09

what do you think? You know, I want

29:11

to go back to what Jamel said about

29:13

Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. Well, the WNBA

29:16

just got their Magic Johnson and Larry Bird.

29:18

Bingo! Clark, right? So I was at the

29:20

draft last night and I spoke to the

29:23

commissioner for the WNBA and she said, you

29:25

know, what makes it what makes a successful

29:27

sports league? You have to have household names,

29:29

rivalries, and games that matter. And she thinks

29:32

that they've got that cocktail. And if you

29:34

look at what's happening right now with tickets

29:36

for the Indiana fever where Caitlin Clark

29:38

is going to be playing, they are

29:41

skyrocketing. Beyond that, the other teams in

29:43

the WNBA, when Indiana fever comes to

29:45

town, they're actually moving their venues to

29:47

bigger places because the demand is higher.

29:50

That is how you make more

29:52

money. That is how you get bigger media

29:54

contracts. That's how you get better corporate contracts.

29:56

And that's how these players go into their

29:59

next negotiation. with

30:01

leverage and they say we want more revenue.

30:03

That's exactly what I want to talk about

30:05

Janelle, because people keep saying the draft last

30:07

night got more viewers than ever, three million

30:09

viewers. That's game changing, but

30:12

here's the thing. It doesn't matter

30:14

what the ratings were last night.

30:16

No one gets a single dollar

30:18

extra for good ratings last night.

30:21

But shouldn't this be a moment to celebrate

30:23

the future? Because it is a game

30:25

changer for these women, for the sport,

30:27

for the league, for the contracts of

30:29

the future. Yeah,

30:32

the narrative needs to be flipped because

30:34

there's a lot of very antiquated narratives

30:37

that people are floating around because frankly, this is

30:39

kind of the downside when you get an influx

30:41

of casual fans, they haven't watched, they don't understand

30:43

the history of the league. So this is all

30:45

very new information that they're trying to process in

30:48

real time. The WBA draft,

30:50

it drawing that many viewers, was

30:52

a huge win as Stephanie alluded

30:54

to, in terms of

30:56

the ticket sales, the Indiana fever ticket sales are up over

30:58

130%. This

31:00

success that we've just seen in women's college basketball

31:02

is going to translate over. But

31:05

before this even happened, understand

31:07

last year's WNBA Finals was

31:09

the highest rated WNBA Finals

31:11

in history. The regular season

31:13

across all platforms that the WNBA

31:15

regular season games are appearing on,

31:17

they're wobbling what the viewership is

31:20

for the NHL. So there's so

31:22

many positives to be pointed out. And

31:24

what I would say to people, if

31:26

you were outraged when you saw those

31:28

salary figures, if you think women deserve

31:30

more, it's really simple. Buy the merchandise,

31:32

watch the game, go to the game.

31:35

That is the best defense that you can

31:37

give these women is by consuming their product

31:40

because I promise you it is worth it.

31:42

Amen, Bingo and hallelujah. But you know, the

31:44

one thing I'll just push back, it's not

31:46

just new fans, right? It's just, it's not

31:49

new people that are getting outraged. I

31:51

saw quote today, Pat McAfee, who

31:53

has a deep understanding of how

31:56

media contracts work, how the industry

31:58

works and Caitlin Clark's out. is

32:00

laughable. So you've got this groundswell of

32:02

people that are outraged at the NBA

32:04

or the WNBA and they're actually experts.

32:07

So where is this outrage coming from

32:09

when there should be a moment of

32:11

joy? Well

32:14

I mean that McAfee is right. Like

32:16

he understands, especially being at an ESPN

32:18

and being in the media game a

32:20

long time, he knows how these

32:22

things work. And look, I'm glad the

32:24

appearance of Kaitlin Clark has galvanized people

32:26

to actually care about this because I've

32:29

been there when the players,

32:31

when they somewhat recently

32:33

renegotiated another collective bargaining agreement. And

32:36

I recall very vividly when they were in

32:38

the process of negotiations and they were talking

32:40

about how they needed to have bigger salaries

32:42

so that the players by the way don't

32:45

have to play overseas. Because everybody

32:47

was wondering why is Brittany Griner

32:49

over in Russia playing overseas if

32:51

she's doing the WNBA? Well the reason she

32:53

is is because in other countries, and this

32:56

to me is an indictment of the US, in

32:58

all these other countries whose human

33:01

rights, rights for women are not nearly

33:03

as far along as the US. In

33:06

Russia there will be healthy fixed figures

33:08

and seven figures for women to come

33:10

play. So what does that say about

33:12

the US? The other component and part

33:14

about this is again is

33:16

that I think people need to understand

33:18

where the league is and it's in

33:20

a great place, but the support needs

33:22

to continue. And for a lot of years

33:24

women have been undermined by the

33:27

fact that the gatekeepers just inherently saw

33:29

value in men's sports. Because men's sports

33:31

have struggled before. I mean the NBA

33:33

and major league baseball, too, some of

33:35

these guys had second jobs in the

33:37

off season. They're coming off that, but

33:40

they continue to invest, people continue to

33:42

watch and buy into the product and

33:44

I think that's what should happen now. Well

33:46

the gatekeepers and the gates get blown over

33:48

when the fans rush the field. Yeah, I

33:51

would also say that we have

33:53

a responsibility in the media as well to

33:55

give these women the support they deserve, the

33:57

exposure they deserve, and if you had fun

33:59

watching the the final four, there's

34:01

more fun to be had. So tune

34:03

in by ticket, get a jersey. Well,

34:05

you can't find any more Caitlin Clark

34:07

jerseys. They're all sold out apparently, but maybe

34:10

they'll make some more for now. Yeah, they're gonna

34:12

make some more. Ladies, thank you so, so much.

34:14

Amazing conversation. Congratulations to those women

34:17

last night, man. It's

34:19

a great time for women in sports. Stephanie Jamel.

34:21

Great to see you both. When we return.

34:24

God, another woman I adore. They

34:26

were an extraordinary power couple. Now

34:29

Doris Kearns Goodman is reliving the

34:31

1960s with her late

34:34

husband, had their four decades of

34:36

marriage intertwined with a love story

34:38

between America and democracy. When the

34:40

11th hour continues. I'm very excited

34:43

for this conversation. Our

34:49

next guest has won countless honors, including

34:51

a Pulitzer prize for her histories of

34:53

American leaders. Her new must

34:55

read book is a little different. It

34:58

is all about her own story and

35:00

the life she shared with her late

35:02

husband, Dick Goodwin, who has been a,

35:05

who had been a key advisor and

35:07

speechwriter to presidents Johnson and Kennedy for

35:09

tonight's very special keynote conversation. I am

35:11

so honored to welcome back presidential historian

35:13

Doris Kearns Goodwin, her new book and

35:15

unfinished love story. A personal history of

35:17

the 1960s is out today. I'm

35:22

so honored to see you to

35:24

be showcasing this book. Tell us

35:26

about Dick and what was

35:28

it like going through his archives to put this

35:30

book together? I bet you wish he could read

35:33

it. Oh my God, I'd give anything for that

35:35

to happen. It really was the last great adventure

35:37

of our lives together. When he turned

35:39

80, he came down the stairs one morning

35:41

and he said, okay, the time has come.

35:43

It's now or never. I better open the

35:45

boxes that he'd been dragging around with us

35:47

for 40 years. And it really was a

35:49

time capsule for the sixties and

35:51

he hadn't wanted to open them because the

35:54

sixties ended so sadly with the death of

35:56

Robert Kennedy, his greatest friend, with Martin Luther

35:58

King's assassination, the riots. in the cities

36:00

and violence and the anti-war movement. But

36:03

finally he realized if I have any wisdom to

36:05

dispense, he said, I better do it now. So

36:07

we began the process of going through the boxes

36:09

from the beginning to the end without

36:11

knowing what was going to happen later,

36:13

suspending knowledge of the fact that these

36:15

deaths would happen. And that's

36:17

the way you have to write history as it

36:19

happens from beginning to the end, not allowing yourself

36:22

to know what's going to happen later and superimpose

36:24

it on the past. But you

36:26

have this love for the

36:28

60s, as though you were inspired by it,

36:31

because you look at young

36:33

people in the 60s and they felt

36:35

like they could change the world. Do

36:37

you not see that today? I want

36:39

that to happen today and I think there are pockets

36:42

of it happening. In fact, the most important thing I'd

36:44

like if people were to get a message from the

36:46

60s as if a time capsule

36:48

tells you this is the message for now. The

36:50

only way change happens in the country is

36:52

when people feel they can make a difference

36:54

and they gather together and they mobilize. Tens

36:57

of thousands of people in the 60s joined

36:59

the Peace Corps. They joined marches against segregation,

37:01

against the denial of the vote. The

37:04

women's movement began, the gay rights

37:06

movement began, and they felt collectively

37:08

we're doing something. It was a great

37:10

time to be young. And systems of discrimination

37:13

tumbled down. Jim Crow laws were gone in

37:15

the South with the Civil Rights Act. The

37:17

voting rights had been denied for all those

37:19

years that black Americans could vote. And then

37:21

the women's movement begins. It's a wonderful time

37:23

to be alive, but all the difficulties and

37:25

the sadness that fate intervened with those deaths.

37:28

The experience for you of going

37:31

through your most precious loved

37:33

ones, belongings, their life's work,

37:35

that is a universal experience

37:38

so many people have. What

37:40

was that like for you and what's your message to

37:42

others? You know, the thing about it was

37:44

that we got a chance to do it together before

37:47

Dick died. And in fact, in

37:49

the last years of his life after he got

37:51

cancer that eventually took his life, it gave him

37:53

a sense of purpose. The memories came back, the

37:56

difficult memories came back, the war in Vietnam

37:58

and his break with Lyndon Johnson. But

38:00

then eventually he began to soften remembering

38:02

how extraordinary Lyndon Johnson was,

38:04

remembering young John Kennedy, remembering

38:06

Robert Kennedy, remembering Jackie Kennedy.

38:08

It was like toasting all these people that had

38:10

been his great friends. And my

38:13

advice for people would be, so often you wait

38:15

when a loved one is older to go through

38:17

their stuff and you're left with it after they

38:19

die and it becomes a really sad going

38:22

through. But what if you

38:24

start those memories before they die and you

38:26

go back through pictures again, what you always

38:28

want from a person is the person who

38:30

dies, who you love, you want to tell

38:32

their story to their children and their grandchildren

38:35

so they live on to the stories you

38:37

tell. So maybe if you start that

38:39

process and go through the scrapbooks

38:41

and get the memories told so that we can

38:43

tell the story of that loved one. Going

38:45

through all that history though, currently

38:48

now, you had to juxtapose that on

38:50

what's happening in the world today. And

38:53

how does that made you feel? It

38:56

makes me feel heartbroken in some ways

38:58

that we're missing that sense of a

39:00

positive feeling about where America is. America's

39:03

still a strong country and yet it needs

39:05

to remind itself that it can make the

39:07

changes. The overwhelming majority of people

39:09

in this country want gun safety, they want

39:12

the right to choose, they want climate change

39:14

action. And it feels frustrating, I

39:16

think, for lots of young people that they

39:18

can't see it moving forward fast enough. It

39:20

takes time. The Civil Rights Movement started long

39:22

before the 1960s. They had a

39:24

lot of failures. They were hurt by Bull Connor's

39:26

dogs. They were hurt by people who

39:28

went after them on the Pettus Bridge.

39:30

And yet civil rights and voting rights

39:32

happened because you had the people who

39:34

were active and leaders in Congress and

39:36

like Lyndon Johnson and John Kennedy who

39:38

really wanted it to happen. The

39:41

two of you had a love for

39:43

America but also for

39:45

America's favorite pastime, baseball.

39:48

You grew up an enormous Jackie

39:51

Robinson fan. You got his autograph.

39:53

This week we marked Jackie

39:56

Robinson Day when he broke the

39:58

color barrier. What was

40:00

that like for you? How do you

40:02

look at his legacy now? A truly extraordinary American.

40:04

You know, what I was made to realize in

40:07

working on the boxes was he was a true

40:09

trailblazer. I'm not sure I understood that when I

40:11

was a little girl. I just loved that he

40:13

ran around the bases and he distracted the pictures.

40:15

And I finally got his autograph one day. It

40:17

was so exciting. I had been waiting and

40:19

waiting for years. You didn't have to pay for them then. And

40:22

I brought my autograph book with me. Girls used

40:24

to have these ridiculous autograph books. I will love

40:27

you till Niagara Falls. I will cherish you

40:29

till rubber tires. I thought he would never

40:31

look down on it. He looked down on it. I

40:33

was so embarrassed. And then he wrote in keeping with

40:35

the autograph book, Keep Your Smile, A Long,

40:37

Long, A Wild Jackie Robinson. But I don't

40:40

think I knew then what it meant for

40:42

him to have the whole burden of being

40:44

a trailblazer. One of the people I write

40:46

about in this book is Merle Smith, who

40:48

was the first black American to be in the

40:50

Coast Guard Academy. And I interviewed his

40:52

widow, Linda, and she said he always felt

40:54

that burden of knowing that he had to

40:56

do well because all the hopes of a

40:58

lot of other people were falling behind him.

41:00

And now I realize that's what Jackie Robinson

41:02

had to do every single day. And he

41:04

did with dignity and such strength. He was

41:06

an incredible man as well as a great

41:08

player. And you are an incredible

41:11

woman. It is an honor and a privilege. I'm so

41:13

glad to be with you on this very day. I

41:15

am too. Thank you so, so much. Gosh, it

41:18

is a privilege to speak to you tonight.

41:20

I'm so lucky. Oh, thank you so much.

41:22

Thank you. Ooh,

41:25

how lucky we all are tonight. Thank you

41:27

so much, Doris Kearns Goodwin. Get her book,

41:29

you will not be disappointed. It

41:31

is a love story. Went to her late husband

41:33

and went to our great country. And

41:35

on that note, I wish you a very

41:37

good night from all of our

41:39

colleagues across the networks of NBC News. Thanks

41:43

for staying up late. I'll see you at the end of

41:45

tomorrow.