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0:33

Tonight, the push from Fawny Willis for

0:35

all 19 Georgia defendants to be tried

0:38

together, plus another setback from

0:40

Mark Meadows in his attempt for a federal case.

0:43

And Mitt Romney announces his retirement,

0:45

calling for a new generation of leaders,

0:48

what his departure from Congress could mean for

0:50

the GOP. Then tech titans

0:52

descend on Capitol Hill. Talking

0:54

AI and regulation, Jake Ward is here

0:57

to break down what happened as the 11th hour

0:59

gets underway on this Wednesday night.

1:05

Good evening, once again, I'm Stephanie

1:07

Ruhle, live from San Francisco. We begin

1:10

this evening with the next steps in the

1:12

sprawling election interference case down

1:14

in Georgia. Tomorrow, the judge there will

1:16

hold another televised hearing on

1:18

legal motion from defendants Ken Chesbrough

1:21

and Sidney Powell. And we could learn more

1:23

about where this entire case is headed next.

1:26

DA Fawny Willis wants all 19

1:28

to be tried together, but the judge has already

1:30

called that an unrealistic idea. Meanwhile,

1:33

a judge today denied Mark Meadows'

1:35

request to pause a decision to keep

1:38

the charges against him in state court.

1:40

And as all that is happening, tension is seriously

1:43

growing in Washington after House Speaker

1:45

Kevin McCarthy announced an impeachment inquiry

1:48

into President Biden. NBC's Peter

1:50

Alexander has more on that.

1:52

Mr. President, are you allowed to- President Biden tonight

1:55

not responding to shouted questions about the House

1:57

Republicans' new impeachment inquiry, as

1:59

Speaker-

1:59

McCarthy is defending his decision

2:02

to move forward. An impeachment inquiry

2:04

is simply empowering

2:07

the House to a greater

2:09

level to get the documents they

2:11

need to answer questions. House Republicans

2:14

are investigating whether President Biden profited

2:16

off the foreign business dealings of his son Hunter

2:18

and other family members, but have not

2:20

yet found any direct evidence. The

2:23

White House says the president did nothing

2:25

wrong.

2:26

It's a political stunt and

2:29

it is going after the president politically,

2:31

not about the truth. Tonight,

2:33

Democrats argue McCarthy's move is intended

2:35

to satisfy his party's most conservative

2:37

members, but some are still threatening

2:40

his speakership. This is a

2:42

baby step following weeks

2:44

of pressure from House conservatives

2:47

to do more. After promising a vote,

2:49

McCarthy ordered the inquiry on his own,

2:51

noting Democrats did the same thing

2:54

against former President Trump.

2:56

Nancy Pelosi changed the president of

2:58

this House. Why would it have to be different

3:00

today? After

3:03

just a few hours ago, Biden did comment

3:06

on the impeachment inquiry and he saw the Republicans

3:08

are just doing it because they want to shut down

3:11

the government. With that, let's get

3:13

smarter with the help of our lead-off panel tonight. NBC

3:15

News senior Capitol Hill correspondent, very

3:18

friend Garrett Haake is here. Luke Broadwater,

3:20

Pulitzer Prize winning congressional reporter for

3:22

the New York Times and former U.S. attorney

3:24

Joyce Vance, who spent 25 years

3:26

as a federal prosecutor. Garrett, since

3:29

we see you the least, you get

3:31

to talk first tonight. What are you hearing from House Republicans

3:34

about this impeachment inquiry? I know some,

3:36

the Matt Gaetz of the world, are all jacked

3:38

up, but there's got to be some that

3:40

are worried this thing's going to backfire.

3:42

I think that's definitely in the back of their minds,

3:44

Stephanie, at least those who are familiar with the history

3:47

of House impeachment efforts know that

3:49

if you're going to come at the president of the United

3:51

States, you've got to have the goods.

3:53

And so far, they haven't demonstrated the fact that

3:56

they have. I think that's part of the reason you've seen

3:58

McCarthy act the way he does. has here by

4:01

authorizing this inquiry by his word alone

4:03

and not asking for a vote. He doesn't want

4:05

to put his vulnerable members out there voting

4:08

for an inquiry that may not produce much of anything.

4:10

The pressure right now is really on the three

4:12

committee chairs who've been asked to lead this inquiry,

4:15

especially James Comer, the head of the

4:17

oversight committee. He's by far the most

4:19

vocal. He's really been the point person on all

4:21

things Hunter Biden. He's been making the rounds

4:23

on Capitol Hill, including talking to Senate Republicans

4:26

today, trying to convince them what they

4:28

have so far in terms of evidence and

4:30

where he sees this going. He's promised some

4:33

kind of hearing this month with the

4:35

kind of inquiry umbrella on top

4:37

of it. But again, with this big spotlight

4:40

comes big pressure. They've got to deliver

4:42

in a way that they haven't been able to do in the last nine

4:44

months of looking under a lot of these same rocks

4:47

for evidence of malfeasance by President

4:49

Biden.

4:50

But here's the thing, Luke, Matt Gaetz might

4:52

be happy to see this impeachment

4:54

inquiry, but that's not enough. He wants

4:57

a whole lot more. I want to share what he told our

4:59

colleague, Ari Melber, today.

5:03

I was quite disappointed that at our

5:05

meeting, there wasn't a discussion about how to bring

5:07

Speaker McCarthy into compliance

5:09

with that agreement that we hammered out in January.

5:12

I do think that Joe Biden deserves impeachment,

5:14

but that wasn't a part of the deal that we crafted

5:17

in January. He lied to get power in January

5:20

when he made this agreement.

5:22

So let's be clear. When he says that Speaker

5:25

McCarthy is not in compliance, he

5:27

is talking about the backdoor deal

5:30

when Gaetz and a few others held

5:32

up the speakership. What was it? Fifteen

5:34

times. So what else can you tell

5:36

us about what he's doing now?

5:37

Right.

5:39

Yeah. I mean, the politics on

5:41

the Hill are actually kind of simple right now.

5:44

Matt Gaetz had pledged to

5:46

have this big speech to

5:48

call essentially for McCarthy's head

5:50

or to lay out the terms under which

5:53

McCarthy would face the wrath

5:55

of the right wing. And

5:58

to get ahead of this speech. Kevin

6:01

McCarthy rushed out a

6:04

announcement of an impeachment inquiry. So

6:06

he could get ahead of one of Matt

6:09

Gaetz's talking points, which is that Kevin

6:11

McCarthy hadn't been aggressive enough on

6:14

the Biden family and hadn't really

6:17

gone after Hunter Biden, hadn't hauled him

6:19

in yet, hadn't issued a subpoena to Hunter

6:21

Biden. And so, you

6:23

know, Matt Gaetz and the pressure from the right is

6:25

very much on Kevin McCarthy's mind.

6:28

He is extremely worried

6:31

about keeping his seat. And

6:33

you can't really underestimate how much pressure

6:35

they're putting on him and how that is forcing him

6:38

to take certain steps. He probably otherwise

6:40

wouldn't.

6:41

Okay. But Luke, they're putting pressure

6:43

on Kevin McCarthy and they're saying your seat

6:45

is at risk. If Kevin McCarthy isn't

6:48

the speaker, does Matt Gaetz think he can be?

6:50

What does he ultimately want?

6:52

Yeah.

6:53

I mean, Matt Gaetz, you

6:55

know, he thinks what they want is

6:58

a power sharing agreement. He thinks that

7:00

he has entered into this with

7:02

Kevin McCarthy, where McCarthy

7:05

will be sort of a speaker and name only,

7:08

but the right wing can sort of call the shots.

7:11

They can demand deep cuts to

7:13

the budget. They can demand extremely

7:17

aggressive investigations into the Biden

7:19

White House and Kevin McCarthy will do their

7:21

bidding. So they're using and they know

7:23

what Kevin McCarthy really wants is to

7:25

maintain his speakership. That's what he truly

7:27

cares about. And so their calculation

7:30

is that they can keep threatening

7:32

to remove him from his post and

7:34

eventually he will give into their demands

7:37

every step of the way and give them what

7:39

they want.

7:40

All right, Joyce, you've been writing about this

7:43

impeachment inquiry from a legal

7:45

and even a political standpoint. What are

7:47

we in for? Well,

7:50

it's a very interesting question because

7:52

here the legal requirements for impeachment

7:55

are clearly not met in order

7:58

to get articles of impeachment. which are

8:00

sort of like the political version of an

8:02

indictment, you're supposed to

8:04

be able to allege high crimes and

8:06

misdemeanors. And

8:08

as Luke has pointed out and Garrett has pointed

8:11

out, there's no indication yet, even

8:13

Republicans can see this, that

8:15

Joe Biden has committed any high crimes

8:18

and misdemeanors, no evidence that he has benefited

8:21

from whatever his son Hunter has

8:23

been doing abroad. And

8:26

so it makes clear that this

8:28

is about the politics and not

8:30

the sort of serious, solemn legal

8:33

intervention that the founding fathers

8:36

intended when they wrote impeachment into

8:38

the constitution as a remedy.

8:40

It's a very glaring sort of disconnect

8:44

between a process that prior

8:46

speakers have been very hesitant to use.

8:48

Nancy Pelosi was very slow

8:51

to authorize impeachment

8:53

for Donald Trump. And only

8:55

when the evidence was overwhelming and

8:57

apparent and demanded impeachment,

8:59

did she finally move forward. That's

9:02

very different than this premature

9:04

jump that we're seeing here. All

9:06

right, Garrett, because you've likely worked a 14 hour

9:09

day, I'm going to give you a three part question. Senate

9:12

Republicans got a briefing from the House GOP

9:14

on this increase. I want to know who

9:16

gave the briefing. Are there any senators

9:19

on board? And did this circus

9:21

based on your reporting or experience contribute

9:24

to Mitt Romney saying, I'm out of here. It's

9:26

over for me.

9:28

Well, look, Romney had made this decision

9:30

some time ago. Today was the day that

9:32

he chose to announce it. But I do think the general

9:34

dynamic in Washington of two parties

9:37

at each other's throats, increasingly unable

9:39

to work together, did speak to Romney's

9:42

ultimate decision, which is a fascinating

9:45

one. And we could do the whole hour on it as far

9:47

as I'm concerned. I've covered him for 10 years. As

9:49

for the events today, this was James

9:52

Comer and Jim Jordan who led this briefing

9:54

for Senate Republicans. It wasn't a mandatory

9:56

one. So a lot of the folks who came to it were

9:59

what you could already. call impeachment curious

10:01

uh... these were folks who are interested in the

10:03

work that house republicans were doing and i'm

10:06

told from some of the senators who are in that room those

10:08

house republicans laid out kind of the broad strokes

10:11

of what they found so far what they're interested

10:13

in trying to pursue soon like hunter

10:15

biden and james biden's bank records

10:18

i talked to tommy cover bill as he was leaving

10:21

uh... somebody who is certainly in the camp of someone

10:23

who would be in favor of a biden impeachment but

10:25

not have been following it closely he

10:27

was shocked at the evidence that was presented

10:29

here but again the key operative

10:31

word from every republican i talked to come

10:34

out of it is inquiry this is the beginning

10:36

of a process and senate republicans watch

10:39

this all happen back in twenty nineteen in

10:41

twenty twenty the first trump impeachment one

10:43

of their key talking point at that time with

10:46

how rush they thought uh... the rush of

10:48

a job the house democrats did bring it to their

10:50

doorsteps they are telling house

10:52

republicans if you're going to do this don't

10:54

rush it don't blow it

10:57

all right well biden said that republicans just

10:59

want to do this because they ultimately

11:02

want to shut down the government what is that supposed

11:04

to mean it or is the white house just saying

11:07

explain to us with that means

11:10

you know i think i think what he was trying to say

11:13

here is that uh... but

11:15

what mccarthy's doing is actually trying to not

11:17

shut down the government uh... the far

11:20

right it would be happy with the government shutdown

11:23

ken mccarthy does not want that he wants

11:25

to show that republicans can

11:28

operate a functional government and

11:30

uh... to try to stay

11:32

off some of the votes uh... that will

11:34

be pro shutdown he wants to throw them

11:37

this uh... impeachment inquiry as

11:40

part of an exchange offers

11:42

his large retailer green says she would only

11:44

vote uh... to not shut down

11:46

the government if uh... this

11:49

impeachment inquiry was approved and

11:51

there are probably a few others in her camp

11:53

who will accept this impeachment inquiry

11:55

in exchange for a vote to keep

11:57

the government open so mccarthy was trying

12:00

to keep the government open by giving

12:02

them this impeachment inquiry.

12:05

Got it. Joyce, new topic. There's

12:07

another hearing tomorrow in Georgia. What

12:10

should we expect? I mean, lucky for us, it is going

12:12

to be televised, so no chance

12:14

for misinformation. We'll get to see it with our own eyes.

12:17

Right. So in

12:19

this hearing tomorrow, the judge will take

12:21

up some of the preliminary pretrial

12:23

motions for the defendants who asked

12:25

for speedy trials and will get them

12:28

in late October. And these are

12:30

the sorts of arguments that judges

12:32

have to sort out, primarily legal arguments

12:35

before a case can get underway. The

12:37

judge will take up motions to dismiss

12:40

the case for different reasons. The defendants

12:42

will argue, you shouldn't even make

12:44

me go to trial because this indictment

12:47

is so deficient for a number of different

12:49

reasons that it's due to be flat

12:51

out dismissed before we move any further.

12:54

I wouldn't expect any of these motions tomorrow

12:56

to be successful. How about

12:58

on Friday when Mark Meadows is going before the

13:01

appeals judge to again make this

13:03

case that he wants his, this Georgia

13:05

case to move to federal court. Any chance it's going

13:07

to happen this time around? Boy,

13:10

this could not be any more complicated

13:12

stuff because the Friday hearing, which

13:14

everyone can watch on Zoom, sort of

13:17

a unique facet for a federal

13:19

court hearing, this is about Meadows

13:22

expedited motion to stay

13:24

the proceedings. What that legalese

13:26

means is he doesn't want anything else

13:28

to happen in the Georgia case while

13:30

his appeal of the removal issue

13:33

is pending. And I think the court is very likely

13:36

to deny that motion. Even

13:38

if they grant it though, they have expedited

13:40

briefing on the substance of the removal

13:43

issue itself and it looks like

13:45

that one's on a fast track for a decision.

13:48

All right, Garrett, let's stay confused. Now

13:51

that Republicans are going to focus

13:54

on this impeachment inquiry into Biden,

13:56

are they going to move their other

13:58

focus away from an investigating

14:00

the Trump investigators, which was a hot topic

14:03

for them until now.

14:05

I don't think so, Stephanie. This is part

14:07

of the kind of three-headed monster that Kevin

14:09

McCarthy has set up here where he's got three separate

14:11

committees all working together on this impeachment

14:14

inquiry. That's an unusual structure, but

14:16

it puts oversight in the lead and would

14:18

still allow the Judiciary Committee to

14:21

support them, but presumably also

14:23

continue their investigations of the

14:25

investigators. That's been a high priority,

14:27

and I think it'll continue to be a high priority

14:30

every time big news

14:32

flares up out of one of these cases. The

14:34

idea of defunding the Justice

14:36

Department or defunding the federal investigations

14:39

is also related to the argument that they're having

14:42

about shutting down the government. That's another piece

14:44

that some of those far-right members want to see in

14:47

this puzzle if they're gonna vote to fund

14:49

the government, to not fund these specific

14:52

elements of what the DOJ is doing

14:54

as it relates to Donald Trump. So it's all interrelated,

14:57

and I don't see any one piece of it just going away

14:59

to put impeachment front and center at the expense

15:02

of everything else.

15:03

This three-headed monster, that is the focus

15:05

from the GOP, Luke, and I promise I'm not

15:07

being sassy. Do

15:09

the Republicans have any policies,

15:12

any committees right now working on national

15:15

security, education, healthcare,

15:18

kitchen table issues that Americans

15:20

vote on?

15:22

Yes, they just don't get a ton of attention.

15:25

I mean, for instance, there's a bipartisan

15:28

committee looking at how to stay

15:30

competitive with China and combat China's

15:33

competitiveness. And in fact, when this committee

15:35

was being formed, there were discussions between

15:37

Kevin McCarthy and the Democratic leader,

15:40

Hakeem Jeffries, about whether

15:42

or not he was going to put

15:44

sort of bomb throwers on this committee or more

15:46

serious Republicans who were going

15:49

to do serious work, and McCarthy

15:51

assured him that he was going to put serious

15:53

Republicans on this. So

15:55

even McCarthy has sort of let

15:58

it be known to Democrats that certain committees... are

16:00

going to be doing serious work and others are going

16:02

to be doing, you know, more political or

16:05

grandstanding or bomb throwing type of type

16:08

of work. Well,

16:09

we always have time to talk about serious

16:11

work, bipartisanship. And Garrett,

16:13

I do want to go back to talking about

16:16

Mitt Romney. That is a member of the Senate.

16:18

I remember a few months ago when I talked to President

16:20

Biden, he specifically pointed

16:22

out how good it is to work

16:24

with Mitt Romney, how productive it is. He

16:27

said what a great member of Congress

16:29

he is. And now here we are. You have covered

16:31

this guy, as you said, since 2012. What

16:34

did you make of his decision not to run for

16:37

reelection and specifically not

16:39

insult President Biden

16:41

and Donald Trump, but to say himself included,

16:44

it's time to make room for a new generation.

16:46

What do you think?

16:48

I wasn't totally surprised by this

16:50

decision. I know it's been weighing on Mitt Romney

16:52

for a long time. He's 76 years old.

16:55

He's got a couple dozen grandkids.

16:58

The idea of sticking around in Washington forever

17:01

was never something that was going to appeal

17:03

to him. And also, I think he saw as

17:05

the partisanship in this town got worse

17:07

and worse, as people he really liked working

17:10

with in the Senate had started to retire, the

17:12

appeal of sticking around to slow

17:14

things down or to be part of perhaps

17:17

a Republican Party led by Donald Trump again

17:19

really wasn't there for him. So the

17:22

prospect of stepping back did make

17:24

a lot of sense. And I'm not surprised that he was

17:26

critical even of President Biden. He

17:28

has found, I think, his most

17:31

authentic voice as a senator in

17:33

a way that he never had as a governor and the way that he

17:35

certainly never had as a presidential candidate

17:37

where he had to be a little bit more of a cynical politician.

17:40

I think what we heard from him today, what we read in this

17:42

McKay-Koppens piece previewing

17:44

his book is the authentic Romney. He

17:46

thinks that Donald Trump is

17:49

a crazy person. He thinks Joe Biden

17:51

has passed his prime. And he thinks these people

17:53

need to hand things over to another generation

17:56

to address the challenges that we're all

17:58

going to live in long after the election. the Mitt Romney's

18:00

and Joe Biden's of the world are gone. So I

18:03

do think he very much believed what he said today. And I don't

18:05

think it takes away any of the respect, the mutual

18:07

respect that he and President Biden

18:09

have for each other and have developed for each

18:11

other, having been, you know, foes 10

18:14

years ago, 12, 11 years ago now, I guess, and

18:16

having worked so closely together these last few years.

18:20

You can disagree with someone, but you can also

18:22

work together with them. And also, it's important

18:24

to note you can be a crazy person

18:27

and not be past your prime. We

18:29

have all sorts of them in our government today.

18:31

Garrett Haig, Luke Broadwater, Joyce Vance, great

18:33

to see you all. Thanks for starting us off tonight. When

18:36

we come back, I want to go deeper on what

18:38

Mitt Romney is saying today about Donald Trump,

18:40

Joe Biden, and making this way for a new

18:42

generation. We'll be speaking to Juanita Toliver

18:44

and Charlie Sykes about all of it. And

18:47

later, our dear friend Jake Ward is here

18:49

in San Francisco with me to break down everything

18:52

you need to know about today's big A.I.

18:55

summit on Capitol Hill. The 11th hour

18:57

just getting underway on a set of

18:59

people in San

19:01

Francisco.

19:07

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anytime and anywhere. So,

20:02

we're gonna have a new episode every week.

20:12

One of the things you've said since leaving office is it's your

20:14

job to kind of step back and allow a new generation

20:17

of leaders to emerge. Did you intend on that

20:19

to be the silent generation? Oh,

20:21

man! All

20:24

right. So, you were just saving that joke.

20:29

All jokes aside, the age of

20:31

our leaders is a very hot topic this election

20:33

cycle. And it is not just that the front runners

20:35

for the presidency are the two oldest

20:37

men to ever assume that office. It's

20:40

also the third oldest Congress since

20:42

the 18th century. But today,

20:44

76-year-old Senator Mitt Romney

20:47

announced he would not run for re-election. Watch

20:49

this.

20:51

I've spent my last 25 years

20:54

in public service of one kind or another. At

20:57

the end of another term, I'd

20:59

be in my mid-80s. Frankly,

21:02

it's time for a new generation of

21:04

leaders. They're the ones that

21:06

need to make the decisions that will shape the

21:09

world they will be living in. Now,

21:12

we face critical challenges. Mounting

21:14

national debt, climate

21:16

change, and the ambitious authoritarians

21:19

of Russia and China. Neither

21:22

President Biden nor former

21:24

President Trump are leading their party

21:27

to confront those issues. Political

21:29

motivations too often impede

21:31

the solutions that these challenges

21:33

demand. The next

21:36

generation of leaders must take

21:38

America to the next stage of global

21:40

leadership.

21:42

Romney went even further in a press event

21:44

just

21:44

a few hours ago.

21:58

Next generation

22:00

wealth, time to transition.

22:04

Back with me tonight, Juanita Toliver, MSNBC

22:06

political analyst and host of the What a

22:09

Day podcast. And Charlie Sykes is

22:11

here, editor at large of the Bulwark and Lucky

22:13

Us and MSNBC contributor and columnist.

22:16

Charlie, what do you think of Romney's announcement?

22:18

I know this is when Mitt

22:21

Romney was running for president, that was

22:23

your boy. That is when you felt great

22:25

about the Republican Party and its leadership.

22:29

Well, Mitt Romney was the conscience of

22:31

the Republican Party, which meant that he was a very, very

22:33

lonely man. And, you

22:35

know, clearly has given a lot of thought

22:37

to the position that he took and was

22:40

willing to do that. So his loss is

22:42

considerable because what you're seeing is the

22:45

voluntary exit of so many

22:47

decent principled Republicans and their

22:50

place being taken by the Ted Cruzes, the

22:52

Josh Hollies and the JD Vanses. So

22:55

on one level, I mean, I hope he enjoys

22:58

his retirement, but there's no question about

23:00

it that the Republican Party

23:02

will be diminished and radicalized

23:05

with his departure.

23:07

Juanita, it's not just Mitt Romney, just

23:09

today, David Ignatius of the Washington

23:11

Post wrote a column called, quote,

23:13

"'President Biden should not run again.' And

23:16

his argument is that the president's

23:18

age is a big concern for voters.

23:20

I am not trying to be ageist in any

23:22

way, but he's saying voters care about

23:24

this, whether it's politically correct or not.

23:26

What do you think?

23:28

I think voters do care about it poll after

23:30

poll has shown. I think even recently

23:34

Quinnipiac poll show that 61% of voters

23:36

are interested in an age cap for

23:38

seeking the presidency. So it's not going

23:40

away. I do think for the 2024 race

23:42

though, especially

23:44

for the Democratic Party,

23:45

this selection is set with

23:48

President Biden. So even with this

23:50

opinion column, I don't expect the party

23:52

to change course in any way. But

23:54

what I do think they should do is confront this head

23:57

on, really emphasize the effectiveness

23:59

of President Biden. and talk about how he

24:01

is still out there sending

24:03

a message to voters about all of the amazing work

24:05

he's done, whether it's investing in rebuilding

24:08

roads and bridges, whether it's the way he's

24:10

trying to use every right and every

24:12

ability he has in his power to relieve

24:14

student loan debt after that harmful

24:17

decision from the Supreme Court. But the reality

24:19

is, emphasizing his effectiveness in this

24:21

role, having him out front is something that's

24:23

going to be critical in 2024, especially

24:25

compared to some of the harmful rhetoric

24:28

and ridiculousness viewed by Trump.

24:30

Charlie, let's put President Biden and Donald

24:33

Trump aside, because if they were to put an

24:35

age cap in place, it would not happen

24:37

before the 2024 election. But

24:40

there are other industries that

24:42

have age-based forced

24:44

retirement. Is this something we should

24:46

consider in government? These are some of the most

24:48

important jobs in the world.

24:51

I don't know about a mandatory age cap,

24:53

but at some point, you would hope

24:55

that people would realize that their time has come

24:57

and would step aside. Otherwise, we have

25:00

now, which is a gerontocracy, which

25:03

in many ways has become kind of absurd, because

25:07

in every other walk of life, people realize,

25:09

okay, it's time to move on, enjoy your life,

25:12

pass the baton to the next generation, which

25:14

you permit Romney is saying. Look, I'm

25:17

going to admit that I'm kind of squishy on this whole

25:19

issue of age, because

25:21

the 2024 election will really

25:23

turn on the existential threat

25:25

that Donald Trump poses to the country,

25:28

the disaster, the constitutional

25:30

cataclysm of a Trump 2.0

25:32

presidency. I mean,

25:34

that's the dominant issue. And if

25:37

concerns about Joe Biden's age

25:40

make that more likely or open the door,

25:42

then we need to have this conversation

25:44

now in September 2023, then have the conversation

25:47

in September 2024, when

25:51

neither man will

25:53

be any younger.

25:54

So I do think this is a legitimate

25:56

issue. The fact that voters are concerned

25:58

about it. to be a warning. And

26:01

I know that people are saying that the election

26:03

is set and that Joe Biden

26:05

has been a successful president. But the real question

26:07

now is whether or not he will

26:10

be an effective candidate, whether

26:12

or not we will have incidents or moments

26:15

that will distract

26:17

from what ought to be the fundamental

26:19

questions of the election. I mean, what we're seeing now

26:22

is Republicans and Donald Trump deploying

26:25

weapons of mass distraction, whether

26:27

it's the impeachment or all this other stuff. But

26:29

we know that they're going to be campaigning on

26:31

the age issue. So I do think we need to have

26:34

a very, very candid and a very serious conversation

26:36

about this now before

26:38

it's too late.

26:40

And Joe Biden is going to punch him back with

26:42

policy and all the things he's been

26:44

getting done. But Juanita, I want to share I'm

26:46

in San Francisco right now for the Dreamforce Conference.

26:49

This is a massive tech conference.

26:51

Yet one of the headliners today that everybody

26:54

wanted to hear from was not a technologist,

26:57

was not a CEO of one of these companies. It was

26:59

California Governor Gavin Newsom. Does

27:02

that tell you that people are hungry to see

27:04

who's next, the next possible Democrat

27:06

with presidential potential?

27:09

I think there's definitely an appetite for it,

27:11

but there's definitely no coalescing behind

27:13

one person. And until we see that, then

27:16

I don't again expect anything to change,

27:19

especially going into 2024. And Gavin

27:21

Newsom has made it clear. Sure, he's promoting

27:23

himself. He's getting his name out there, getting his

27:25

national breath. But his time is looking to

27:27

2020. And that's been clear, especially

27:29

if he's continuously backed

27:31

up President Biden.

27:32

Charlie, election experts

27:35

are sounding the alarm and

27:37

saying democracy is at

27:39

stake. Do you think Americans

27:42

understand that? Are they paying attention? Do

27:45

they realize that?

27:48

I think that that on one level,

27:50

they understand that there is a threat. But I don't

27:53

think that they are sufficiently alarmed

27:55

because I don't think that they're sufficiently aware of

27:57

how fragile our democracy is.

27:59

one of the things that I took away from

28:02

McKay Coppins' Peace Me Atlantic about Mitt Romney,

28:05

his sense of the fragility of

28:08

our constitutional order and

28:10

the temptation of autocracy. I

28:12

think there's been a sense of complacency

28:15

among Americans, this belief that because we are

28:17

exceptional, that somehow we're immune to history.

28:20

But one of the things that I think that Mitt Romney

28:23

understood was how quickly this can

28:25

happen, how empires rise and fall,

28:27

and how there is sort of a human

28:29

nature that sometimes will

28:32

coalesce around our autocrats.

28:35

So yes, I think there's concern,

28:38

but

28:39

I'm not sure that people

28:41

fully have taken on board, how

28:44

fragile we would be. And frankly, what

28:46

a Trump presidency in 2025 would

28:49

actually mean for all of this. I

28:51

just don't think that people really

28:53

have understood it. People think it's going to be sort

28:55

of a replay of the Shambolic's first

28:58

term presidency. I don't think they've been paying attention

29:00

because things can get much, much worse,

29:03

particularly now that Trump and his acolytes

29:05

have figured out how

29:07

to turn on the lights and how the doorknobs

29:10

work, and which

29:12

buttons to push, and who to fire, and

29:14

what kinds of people they want to put

29:16

into government. So the threat is very

29:19

real and very serious, which is why

29:21

I don't think that anyone should

29:23

assume that 2024 is going to be

29:25

anything like a normal election

29:28

because the stakes are not like anything like a

29:30

normal election.

29:31

I need a last point to you.

29:33

Yeah, just to add on to that, when I was reading through

29:35

some of the recommendations in the report from the experts

29:38

about protection for

29:40

election workers or combating

29:43

disinformation, all I could think about was who was responsible

29:46

for where we are today, and that's Trump and Republicans.

29:49

And I'm talking about beyond January 6th, I'm

29:51

talking about the voter suppression laws that were passed

29:53

on the back of Trump's 2020 lie in Republican

29:56

controlled state houses across the country. And

29:58

I don't want voters to be... turned away at the polls

30:01

or voters struggle to submit

30:03

their ballots to be the moment when they wake up.

30:05

So I think a broad education program

30:07

about how voters sadly are going to have to contort themselves

30:10

in order to submit their ballots or gain access

30:12

to the polls is going to be critical to 2024

30:15

because Trump and Republicans want

30:17

to distress. This is exactly what

30:19

they wanted, especially

30:21

when we know that this is their long game

30:24

and approach to politics.

30:26

Juanita, Charlie, thank you for being here. I

30:28

have to leave it there because I need time

30:30

for this segment. It is an important one. When we

30:33

come back after hitting a historic

30:35

low, which was a positive, child

30:37

poverty rates have now more than doubled

30:40

in just one year. We're going to look at what is driving

30:42

this jump when the 11th hour continues.

30:54

I've been here when tax cuts for

30:57

the wealthiest Americans were expiring and I've seen

30:59

the Senate stay here till two o'clock

31:01

in the morning to make sure those tax

31:03

cuts were extended. In this case,

31:05

we turned our back on America's children.

31:07

Yesterday was one of the saddest

31:10

and frustrating days in

31:12

my time in the Congress to

31:14

learn that the United States had the

31:16

largest increase in child poverty.

31:19

This moral obscenity of the richest

31:21

nation in the world having the highest poverty rates

31:24

is not an accident. It's not destiny.

31:27

It's not inevitability.

31:28

It is people in this institution

31:32

making a policy choice.

31:35

Extend those tax credits for corporations

31:38

and let them run out for kids. Following the

31:40

expansion of the child tax credit back

31:42

in 2021, we saw child poverty in

31:45

this country fall to its lowest

31:47

point ever. That program was

31:50

allowed to expire and millions of families

31:52

lost a financial lifeline just

31:55

as inflation was surging. What

31:57

happened? The child poverty rate more

31:59

than doubled. to 12.4%. Joining

32:02

me now, Democratic Senator Michael

32:04

Bennett of Colorado. Senator, you knew I was going to

32:06

invite you on to talk about this. How

32:09

did we get here? Well,

32:11

Stephanie, we got here because we turned

32:13

our back on America's kids. We

32:16

enacted a policy that cut childhood

32:18

poverty in half, which is what the

32:20

proponents of this bill, including myself

32:23

said it would. A lot of people said it wouldn't, but

32:25

it did cut it in half. Families

32:27

got the checks every month and they were able to

32:30

pay for a little bit of extra food

32:32

or buy some school clothes for

32:34

their kids or not have to make

32:36

such a stressful decision about affording

32:38

rent or paying for healthcare

32:42

or after-school stuff. They

32:44

spent their money on kids. The richest

32:46

country in the world cut childhood poverty

32:48

in half. Now we've seen it double

32:51

in effect because we did not extend the

32:53

child tax credit. My goal is

32:55

to end childhood poverty in this country. I

32:57

think that that should be a goal for the

32:59

richest country in the world. We

33:02

now know how to do it and we've got to

33:04

fight to make this child tax credit,

33:06

the enhanced child tax credit, permanent.

33:09

Or those parents weren't buying extra food.

33:11

They were buying the same amount dealing with the

33:13

fact that we're facing inflation and everything

33:16

costs more. I want you to fact check something

33:18

for us because there are some critics who

33:20

anecdotally like to say that this expansion,

33:23

this money is going to get used for the wrong places.

33:26

But none of them showed the data to back

33:28

that argument up. What can you tell us about

33:30

the truth? The data shows us that

33:32

the vast majority of people are working.

33:34

Before I was in the Senate, I was the

33:36

superintendent of the Denver Public Schools. Most

33:39

of the kids in that district were kids of color. Most

33:41

of the kids lived in poverty

33:43

and their families were working two and three

33:45

jobs. There's no more egregious

33:48

and painful myth in this country than

33:50

the idea that poor people aren't working. They're

33:52

killing themselves. But their working

33:55

economy were no matter how hard they work,

33:57

they haven't been able to lift their kids out of poverty.

33:59

what that's about. You've looked at this, you've studied

34:02

it, you know, we have some of the

34:04

least, you know, the lowest economic

34:06

mobility rates of any country in the industrialized

34:09

world. And the Child Tax Credit was

34:11

a way of mitigating that and lifting

34:14

stress, Stephanie, which is what I heard from

34:16

mostly moms, which was the stress

34:18

that came off their families because they

34:21

didn't have to, you know, have to make these

34:23

death-defying choices at the end of

34:25

every month. Obviously, Stephanie, what we

34:28

need in this country, again, is an economy

34:29

that when it grows, it grows for everybody,

34:32

not just the people at the very top. Working

34:34

people in the middle class in America

34:37

know if they work hard, they'll be able

34:39

to, their country, their

34:41

kids will be able to get ahead. I think that's

34:44

the key to saving our democracy. I think that's

34:46

the key, not having Donald Trump

34:48

here again. And in the meantime,

34:51

we could pass some federal policy

34:53

that's the opposite of the Trump tax cuts

34:55

for the wealthy, a tax cut for

34:57

working people, and cut

35:00

childhood poverty in half on the way to

35:02

eliminating it.

35:04

You talk about poor families that are working their

35:06

tails off. One of the problems they're facing

35:08

is childcare. We know that childcare

35:11

is so expensive in this country, and it's actually

35:13

going to get worse. Right now, one

35:16

in three childcare centers

35:18

could be facing closure imminently.

35:21

How in the world are families supposed to

35:23

handle this?

35:24

You know, this is another case, Stephanie,

35:26

where unfortunately our

35:29

country does not provide the same level

35:31

of benefits that other countries in the Western

35:33

world do, and our kids are paying a heavy price

35:36

for that. I mean, the idea, there's some people who

35:38

said, well, look, $300 a

35:40

month per kid, somehow that's going to dissuade

35:42

people from working. These people must not

35:45

understand how much childcare

35:47

costs. And what people in Colorado

35:49

was doing, they were eking out an

35:51

extra hour of childcare they were paying

35:54

for so they could stay at work, so

35:56

they could support their kid. Obviously,

35:59

we need a better system. system than that. And by the way,

36:01

if you talk to any kindergarten

36:03

teacher in America, they'll tell

36:06

you that the ability of

36:08

kids to be able to have access to high-quality

36:11

early childhood and to child care is

36:13

critical to their being able to perform well

36:16

in kindergarten. We gave our kids

36:18

today a double whammy. You know, this moral

36:21

obscenity, as my colleague Cory

36:23

Booker said, because it's not

36:25

like we're actually fixing their schools. We

36:27

haven't done that yet. We gave them a

36:29

chance to get out of poverty and now we've

36:32

taken that away and without the kind of child

36:34

care that you're talking about. We've

36:36

made it hard to be a poor kid in America,

36:39

much harder than it should be. And it's

36:41

much harder to be a poor kid here than

36:43

it is in a lot of other countries in the world

36:46

these days. I know people find that

36:48

hard to believe, but it's sad

36:50

but true. You

36:51

know what? Next week, I may have to do a

36:55

line by line to explain to our audience

36:58

how much it costs to raise

37:00

a child in the United States, what food

37:02

costs, what transportation costs, and actually

37:05

what child care costs. Everybody who has these

37:07

big opinions about it, we might have to show

37:09

them the actual numbers. Senator,

37:11

thank you so much for joining us tonight. It is always good

37:13

to see you. It's great to see you, Stephanie. Thanks

37:16

for having me. By the way, maybe you should run for

37:18

president because you can stay up to 1130

37:20

every night.

37:22

I'm going to

37:24

stick to what I'm

37:24

doing. Good to see you, Senator.

37:27

Thanks for having me. Bye. All

37:28

right. When we come back, oh my gosh, that would

37:30

be terrible. We're going to dig deeper into

37:32

AI, how the heavy hitters in the tech world think

37:35

it should be regulated. I'm guessing to

37:37

benefit them,

37:38

we are not the jig warriors here. We have

37:41

a dollar to pay.

37:52

The biggest names in technology descended

37:54

on Capitol Hill today to talk all about

37:57

regulating artificial intelligence, but

37:59

it is what What came after the doors closed

38:01

that's making the biggest headlines. It always does.

38:04

When one senator tells NBC News that

38:06

Elon Musk privately warned that

38:09

AI poses a quote civilizational

38:12

risk to our societies. So

38:14

let's bring in the San Francisco tree themselves,

38:16

Jake Ward, NBC News tech correspondent

38:19

and author of the book The Loop. How technology

38:21

is creating a world without choices and

38:24

how to fight back. All right, Jake, what did we learn today?

38:26

You know, I think we learned that

38:28

the talking points of big tech

38:30

CEOs and I mean, this was as big

38:33

a group as you could imagine, right? I mean, Satya

38:35

Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg,

38:37

Bill Gates in one room, right? All

38:40

of those people, I think it really locked down

38:42

what they like to talk about when they talk to senators

38:44

about this kind of thing. They like to talk about

38:46

things like Elon Musk talking about this big

38:48

civilizational risk. As one person put it to me,

38:50

that's a way of sort of shaping the conversation

38:53

toward the kinds of risks that they are comfortable

38:55

talking about and away from the more short-term

38:57

problems that we're seeing. And that is

38:59

something that supposedly did not really get touched

39:02

as much this time. And

39:04

well, I could go on and on, but there's a lot around

39:07

the way one person put it to

39:10

me is when you're thinking about AI regulation,

39:12

you got to think in years, maybe even generations.

39:15

But tech CEOs think in financial quarters, they want

39:17

to move fast and make money now. And I

39:19

think what we saw coming out of this

39:21

was more and more senators taking

39:24

that line and talking about, oh, we have to move fast

39:26

in order to not get in the way.

39:27

But also let's talk about who's in the room,

39:29

right? The biggest stakeholders,

39:32

the people who stand to make the most

39:34

amount of money are telling the lawmakers,

39:37

here's

39:37

how to regulate us. I mean, that is like my

39:40

kids saying,

39:41

okay, mom and dad, here is how

39:43

much you're going to pay me in allowance. Here's all the rules

39:45

you're going to give me. And what the senators sat

39:47

there with a pen and paper and said, thank

39:49

you, sir. We'll do that tomorrow.

39:52

That's been non-curdish. I mean,

39:54

I spoke to the lone academic

39:56

that was just one

39:57

invited to this thing. Deb Raji was her

39:59

name.

39:59

She's from UC Berkeley and it was her

40:02

job to represent basically all of academia

40:05

in the face of a combined What

40:07

trillion dollars worth of tech CEO and

40:09

then I asked her what is it like to square off with these

40:11

folks? You know to say to them. Well,

40:13

what about you know, the way marginalized groups are

40:16

having their snap benefits denied by Automated

40:19

systems that your companies are helping

40:21

to build and she said well, I

40:23

tried to do my best You know, I tried to say we shouldn't

40:26

be worried about the terminator quality

40:28

of you know The stuff that Elon Musk wants to talk

40:30

about she didn't name names, but that's the sort of vibe I

40:32

got But you know and instead she

40:34

wanted to talk about like how the way these

40:36

things are built and being deployed right now is having a specific

40:39

and distinct effect on Especially

40:42

marginalized communities. She said this was a hard room

40:44

to get that across in and she said I've been

40:46

studying everybody's talking points I was

40:48

sort of ready for it, but it was really hard Alone

40:51

academic just one

40:52

I'd love to know if Deb was in DC

40:55

last night because I am sure The lobbyists

40:57

for all these big companies were taken out

41:00

these lawmakers Their staff all over

41:02

town to big fat fancy expensive dinners

41:04

I'm guessing Deb wasn't there

41:05

and the thing too right that these guys are so

41:07

good at and that is it become increasingly

41:09

part of the Playbook of tech CEOs is to show

41:11

off how cool the tech is at the front end You'll

41:14

remember that a couple of months ago They had a gathering where

41:16

Sam Altman came to town he was gonna testify before Congress

41:19

But beforehand a big dinner that

41:21

all the senators got to come to and even Ted Lieu

41:23

who has been a really vocal

41:25

I'm guessing everybody didn't pay their own

41:27

way. I don't know whether they paid But

41:30

they definitely

41:31

got this this this show

41:34

that was both they blew their minds and even

41:36

Ted Lieu come out say came out saying Wow, that was really

41:38

amazing You know and when what all the

41:40

academics and critics that I was speaking to in the in the

41:43

you know Since this thing has happened

41:45

said is if you do that on the front end you

41:48

absolutely bias people away from thinking about wow

41:50

What happens when we're at a place

41:52

like we are right now? Where we don't have

41:54

a good reliable system for telling the difference between

41:57

what's written by AI and was written by humans right

41:59

now There's no system

41:59

And this is coming for

42:01

this is coming what a day or two after

42:03

Vladimir Putin just weighed in right on

42:05

Oh Donald Trump and these

42:07

and these Investigations, it's political

42:10

persecution

42:10

that is happening right now

42:13

And yet what they want to talk

42:15

about is how we're going to get enslaved by

42:17

robots in the future But you can trust us to sort of

42:19

deal with it. You know, this is the this is the crazy thing What

42:21

about the talk of creating an agency

42:23

to regulate AI, you know? So I

42:26

mean I most of people that I'm talking to are very

42:28

much in favor of that Concept

42:30

what they say is that if

42:33

you if that agency only takes

42:35

as its metric of harm money

42:37

and the money that can be made and Balancing that against everything

42:39

else then you're gonna you're gonna sort of wind up in a lot

42:42

of trouble that we have to basically Redefine our idea

42:44

of what harm really even involves

42:46

in order to get there You're hearing all these tech CEOs

42:49

say we would like that to be the case It's

42:51

part of the playbook of those companies to also try

42:53

and set up rules that only they

42:56

can satisfy we've seen this before It's

42:59

called Regulatory capture

43:01

when

43:02

the biggest guys say yeah, I know

43:04

how to game the system Let me pick the regulations,

43:06

you know, I'm gonna know how to work around them You're

43:09

in luck Jake Ward is sticking around

43:11

for tonight's last thing and we are talking

43:13

San

43:14

Francisco You

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44:30

I am in San Francisco for Dreamforce.

44:32

We have 40,000 people in this city. Dreamforce

44:36

is like the Super Bowl hitting San

44:38

Fran.

44:40

The last thing before we go tonight, San

44:44

Francisco.

44:45

Last night I committed Cardinal Sin in the

44:47

Eyes of Many who call this beautiful city home

44:49

so I had to have Jake stick around. Oh my

44:51

gosh. So I said San Fran a whole bunch

44:54

of times last night and I got lit on fire

44:56

by Twitter. My poor producer Charlie

44:58

who's from Oakland all of his local friends are calling.

45:01

I mean I wasn't

45:02

eating rice arone or on a cable car.

45:04

What's the big freaking deal? You know well so San

45:06

Francisco really you know we pride ourselves

45:08

I think on letting people be whoever they want to be.

45:11

You don't call those San Fran. But if you really

45:13

want to get under people's skin they may not tell you to your

45:15

face but they really will be upset when you say San Fran

45:18

you know Frisco. Nobody says

45:21

that. If you're a gate agent you can maybe

45:23

get away with saying SF or something but but

45:25

for the most part right you would never cut

45:28

Manhattan

45:29

to a nickname.

45:30

Nobody's doing that. Okay you know what I'm saying?

45:33

Yeah. In a lie. In a lie. It's

45:35

an important

45:35

place. Because it's Manhattan. Well

45:37

this is a thing Manhattan. It's

45:39

a respectable city that deserves

45:41

the respect. We here in San Francisco

45:44

like to consider this also a respectful city.

45:46

This city's got its challenges, got its problems but this is

45:49

a port city that has transformed

45:51

itself many times. Survived one of the greatest biggest

45:54

earthquakes to ever hit a major city. I

45:56

mean you know this place has been through a lot. It's

45:58

a fantastic place. We say it's a great place. its name and I

46:00

invite you, Stephanie, to say its name.

46:02

For that, it deserves all

46:04

the letters to be pronounced every time. Jake

46:07

Ward, thank you. Jake's mom, Debbie, is here. Thank

46:09

you for being here and looking at me with a live studio audience

46:11

here in San Francisco.

46:14

And for you at home, I wish you a very

46:16

good night. From all of our colleagues across the

46:18

networks of NBC News, thanks for staying

46:20

up late with

46:21

me. I'll see you at the end of tomorrow.

46:27

I'm MSNBC's Ali Velshi. A

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