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0:32

Tonight, stormy on the stand, what

0:34

the porn star said about Donald

0:36

Trump and the combative cross-examination from

0:38

the defense. Then President

0:41

Biden condemns anti-Semitism as Israel seizes

0:43

a key border crossing in Gaza.

0:45

Plus, Marjorie Taylor Greene meets with

0:47

Mike Johnson what's next as she

0:49

backs off her immediate threat to

0:52

oust the speaker as the 11th

0:54

hour gets underway on this Tuesday

0:56

night. Good

1:04

evening once again, I'm Stephanie Ruhl.

1:06

We are now 182 days away

1:08

from the election and it has

1:10

been six years, three months, and

1:12

25 days since

1:15

the first report that Stephanie Daniels was

1:17

paid to keep quiet during the 2016

1:19

election about her

1:21

alleged sexual encounter with Donald J.

1:23

Trump. Today, Stormy Daniels herself

1:26

took the stand and told her story

1:28

to a jury while defendant Donald Trump

1:30

sat watching 10 feet

1:33

away. Here's my colleague, Laura Jarrett with

1:35

more. Tonight,

1:38

Donald Trump seated just 10 feet

1:40

away as the woman at the

1:42

center of his hush money cover-up

1:44

trial, Stormy Daniels, testified in vivid

1:46

detail about their alleged sexual encounter

1:48

nearly two decades ago that prosecutors

1:50

say he was desperate to hide

1:53

from voters before the 2016 election.

1:56

The adult film actress speaking quickly at times,

1:58

looking directly at the jury recounting how

2:01

she first met Mr. Trump at

2:03

a celebrity golf tournament in Lake

2:05

Tahoe in 2006 and

2:07

went up to a hotel suite where

2:09

the pair ultimately had sex, which Mr.

2:12

Trump says never happened. She

2:18

told the jury she was not

2:20

threatened and wasn't drugged, but her

2:22

testimony about an imbalance of power

2:24

and blocking out during the alleged

2:26

encounter, prompting the defense team to

2:28

ask the judge to declare a

2:30

mistrial, arguing the lurid details were

2:32

only meant to embarrass the presumptive

2:34

GOP nominee, saying the testimony is

2:36

impossible to come back from. The

2:39

judge refusing to declare a mistrial

2:41

but agreeing some of Daniel's testimony

2:43

would have been better left unsaid,

2:46

all leading to a heated cross-examination.

2:48

The defense zeroing in on testimony Daniel's

2:51

gave about an unknown man she says

2:53

confronted her in a parking lot in

2:55

2011, a story she

2:57

recounted to 60 Minutes. The

3:00

defense pressing her about why

3:03

she didn't call police or tell her then boyfriend at the

3:14

time. The testimony stretching far afield

3:16

from the criminal charges the former president

3:18

faces for allegedly disguising how he reimbursed

3:20

Michael Cohen, his former fixer and attorney,

3:22

who paid Daniel's the $130,000 to stay

3:24

quiet just before the 2016 election, the

3:26

judge chiding Daniel's

3:32

to move it along at times. Daniel

3:39

telling the jury today she was focused

3:42

on selling her story, but my motivation

3:44

wasn't money, it was to get the

3:46

story out, adding she didn't feel safe

3:48

after the parking lot threat. Mr.

3:51

Trump's defense attorney taking direct aim

3:53

at her credibility and past denials

3:55

of their alleged encounter, grilling her,

3:57

you are looking to extort money

4:00

President Trump, right? Daniel's

4:02

responding, false. Trump's

4:05

attorneys will continue their cross-examination of Daniel's

4:07

on Thursday, and the prosecution has made

4:09

it clear they will want to keep

4:12

her on the stand for redirect. Meanwhile

4:14

down in Florida, Judge Aileen Cannon

4:17

has given Trump his wish. She

4:19

has indefinitely delayed his classified documents

4:21

trial, making it even less likely

4:23

that the trial will happen before

4:25

the election. With that, let's

4:27

get smarter with the help of our lead-off

4:29

panel, and in honor of Stormy on the

4:32

Stand, it is ladies night to start the

4:34

show. Katie Fang is here, MSNBC legal analyst

4:36

and host of the Katie Fang Show, Saturday's

4:38

right here on MSNBC. Susan Glasser

4:40

joins us, staff writer for The New

4:42

Yorker, and Barb McQuaid, a veteran federal

4:44

prosecutor and former U.S. attorney for the

4:46

Eastern District of Michigan. Her new book,

4:49

Attack from Within, How Disinformation

4:51

is Sabotaging America, is out

4:53

now. Madam Fang,

4:56

this is the testimony many,

4:58

many people were anxious to

5:00

hear. What do you make of

5:02

what Stormy Daniels had to say? She

5:06

was incredibly vivid in detail, and maybe

5:08

some people think that that is a

5:10

convenient truth for her, but from

5:13

what she said and what she relayed

5:15

to the jury that sat and wrapped

5:17

attention and took detailed notes in their notebooks,

5:20

Stormy Daniels delivered for the

5:22

prosecution, namely that she

5:24

experienced a brief sexual encounter

5:26

with Donald Trump that

5:29

was not being presented for the purposes

5:31

of the salaciousness of what happened, but

5:33

because at the end of the day,

5:35

immediately after it occurred, Donald Trump never

5:37

told her to keep it confidential. He

5:39

never told her that he was worried that

5:42

his family or his wife Melania would find

5:44

out. Instead, it was only after

5:46

he announced that he was going to run for

5:49

the office of the President of the United States

5:51

that suddenly there was a mad dash to

5:53

get her across the finish line with a

5:56

nondisclosure agreement with a payment of $130,000. Now,

6:00

it'll be up to the prosecution in the

6:02

end to present an enclosing in terms of

6:04

weeding it all together. But the

6:06

jury definitely was interested in hearing

6:09

what she had to say. And

6:11

so far, she's been holding her

6:13

own against a very aggressive cross-examination

6:15

by the only female lawyer for

6:17

Donald Trump. Barb,

6:19

if you're the prosecutor here, how are

6:21

you feeling about Stormy's testimony thus far?

6:25

Oh, I think it came in really well.

6:27

You know, one of the things Katie mentioned

6:30

there was the level of detail in her

6:32

story. And I think that's important. You know,

6:34

there were some objections raised about some of

6:36

the salacious details that came in today. But

6:39

things like the black and white tile on

6:41

the floor and the mahogany furniture and the

6:43

layout of the hotel room, these

6:45

things matter only because if she is

6:47

fabricating that, it would be very

6:49

easy to rebut that. They could have a witness

6:52

who works at that hotel say, it doesn't look

6:54

anything like that or it didn't look anything like that

6:56

in 2006. And so

6:58

those kinds of details, I think, can

7:00

really bolster her testimony and help a

7:02

jury believe that this story is true.

7:04

I think one thing that the prosecution

7:06

has to be careful about, though, is

7:08

something I've encountered in cases I've handled.

7:10

And it reminds me of when Kenneth

7:13

Starr was investigating Bill Clinton. I think

7:15

that if the details of the sexual

7:17

affair become too salacious, there's a worry

7:19

that the jury perceives the case to

7:21

be about morality instead of about what

7:23

the case is really about, which is

7:25

the falsification of business records to interfere

7:27

with an election. And so I think

7:29

they got just enough detail to tell

7:31

the story here. She's now off on

7:34

cross-examination, so far holding up well, but

7:36

we'll continue that tomorrow. I want to

7:39

go back to the salaciousness in a

7:41

sec, Barb. But, Susan, let's just zoom

7:43

out. OK, it was January

7:45

2018, just

7:47

one year into Trump's presidency.

7:50

OK, we've been hearing about

7:52

Stormy Daniels for six long

7:54

years now. And here we

7:56

are. Put this case

7:58

and specifically this test. testimony

8:00

into context for us? Well,

8:03

that's right. There are two very,

8:05

very different audiences for all of this.

8:07

And one is what happened inside that

8:09

courtroom and with the jury itself and

8:11

the judge. But of course, the context

8:13

here is this national election. And, you

8:16

know, what in a way it sums

8:18

up 2024 just in brief that we

8:20

are not only

8:24

having this very belated court proceeding. I

8:26

mean, that's one story about Donald Trump

8:28

is that he's managed to play the

8:31

legal system so that it's taken so

8:33

long that we're in the middle

8:35

of yet another election year talking

8:37

about whether he was essentially improperly

8:39

intervening in the 2016 election. That's

8:43

eight years ago. So I'm struck

8:45

by the amount of time we've

8:47

been talking about this, but also

8:50

about the incredibly surreal nature, whatever

8:52

the jury ultimately makes of these

8:55

charges against Donald Trump. We are

8:57

talking about an account of a

8:59

woman under oath that is extraordinarily

9:02

problematic. If the politician's

9:04

name was not Donald Trump, it's

9:06

hard to see how this is

9:08

something that would lend Lester to

9:11

the Republican nominee for president of

9:13

the United States. And that,

9:15

of course, is the other audience. What does

9:17

the public make of this? Do they simply

9:19

shrug their shoulders and say, we already know

9:21

this about Donald Trump and

9:24

we don't care for those who

9:26

are his fans or who are Republican partisans

9:28

and want him to win

9:30

anyways? That really is, in

9:32

essence, the question that we're being asked every

9:34

day this year in 2024. Katie,

9:38

let's dig back into, dare I

9:40

say, the dirty details that Barb

9:42

was just referencing. Stormy went into

9:45

graphic detail. The

9:48

judge actually said, keep it brief. Don't give

9:50

us the details. She did. She gave us

9:52

the details. They certainly do not show Trump

9:54

in a good light. But is there

9:57

a risk that this gets the case

9:59

sidetracked? backfire on the prosecution?

10:03

Well, that's a really good question,

10:05

right? Because it's such a stark

10:07

contrast to what yesterday was like.

10:09

Yesterday was Jeff McConnie and Deborah

10:11

Tarasoff, people that are former employees

10:13

or an employee currently at Trump

10:15

organization creating and documenting that paper

10:17

trail of the receipts and the

10:20

fake ledgers and the false invoices

10:22

and the wrong retainer entries, et cetera.

10:25

So you get that and you juxtapose

10:27

it to what we heard today was

10:29

storming and your eyes

10:31

obviously get very wide. But here's the

10:33

kind of true issue, which is the

10:36

evidence, right? Because, you know, Seth, we

10:38

could have conversations all day long, but

10:40

what the jury ends up hearing is

10:43

totally different. The jury can only see,

10:45

read, hear, feel what has

10:47

actually been entered into evidence. What is said

10:49

by a lawyer is not

10:51

evidence. And so what happened today

10:53

is despite the detour into

10:56

the more lurid and more salacious details

10:58

of what happened with Donald Trump and

11:00

Stormy Daniels, when the defense failed to

11:02

object, that's why the jury heard it.

11:05

And so despite the move for

11:07

a mistrial during the direct

11:09

examination testimony of Stormy Daniels, Judge

11:12

Marchant said to the defense, you

11:14

know, I honestly expected you to

11:16

object more. And so despite

11:18

there being, quote, guardrails that were put up

11:20

to make sure that Stormy Daniels did zero

11:23

too far off the beaten path, because the

11:25

defense failed to object and even when Judge

11:27

Marchant said, you might want

11:29

to make sure that you stay on the straight

11:31

and narrow, the jury ended up hearing it anyways.

11:34

And so they left today with a recess for

11:36

no court tomorrow on Wednesday with

11:38

that very kind of seared into

11:40

their minds imaging and images,

11:42

excuse me, of what Stormy Daniels

11:44

said happened with Donald Trump. Barb,

11:47

let's talk about the cross-examination. Trump's lawyers

11:49

are clearly trying to paint the picture

11:52

that Stormy is out to get Trump.

11:54

She has a vendetta against him. Even

11:57

if she does, if the facts are

11:59

on her side. Does it matter? Yeah,

12:02

it really doesn't. I think there are two ways to

12:04

look at that. One is

12:06

that she was even asked,

12:08

don't you hate Donald Trump? Don't you? She

12:11

said, yes, I do. And if that's the case, there's

12:14

nothing that undermines her credibility

12:16

in that way, that that's

12:19

the way she feels, and that's fine. If she was

12:21

out to get him, if she was, at one point

12:23

she was accused of extorting him, which she denied. But

12:25

even if the jury believes that to be the case,

12:27

I don't think that's problematic here, because at the end

12:29

of the day, she says she took the payment that

12:32

Donald Trump paid her through Michael Cohen. I

12:34

think the second reason that they're using this,

12:36

though, is to impeach her as a witness,

12:38

her believability, that she'll say anything, that she,

12:41

because of her feelings for Donald Trump, because

12:43

she so despises him, she is here, she's

12:45

out to get him, she does have a

12:47

vendetta against him, and therefore you should not

12:49

believe anything that she has to say. But

12:52

of course, the way that prosecutors address

12:55

that sort of situation is by corroborating

12:57

her testimony with the testimony from other

12:59

people. And so I think that, again,

13:03

with the display of all of the

13:05

details here, if someone wanted to undermine

13:07

her credibility, they could simply bring in

13:09

a witness to refute some of those

13:11

details. It remains to be seen in their

13:13

case whether they're able to do that or not. But

13:16

I don't know that just because a jury might not

13:18

like her doesn't mean they won't believe her. Susan,

13:21

today we heard so many embarrassing

13:23

details. And according to the transcript,

13:25

Donald Trump could not control himself

13:28

in the courtroom. The judge actually

13:30

had to tell Trump's attorney to

13:32

calm his client because he was

13:34

actually cursing audibly in

13:36

a way that could potentially intimidate witnesses.

13:39

How lucky is Donald Trump?

13:42

Right? Lucky example, 4,682. How

13:45

lucky is this man that there are

13:47

no cameras in the courtroom? Well,

13:51

it would have been must-see TV. There's no

13:53

question about that, Steph. In

13:55

general, that's one of the things that's really

13:57

interesting about this case. it

14:00

really has captivated the public's attention,

14:02

certainly it's given new life to

14:05

the entire industry of courtroom sketching,

14:08

which has never had more high-profile role in

14:10

our national public life, so at least certainly

14:13

not in decades that I can remember. It's

14:16

a reminder that courtrooms in the

14:18

judicial system are among the least

14:20

transparent and most

14:23

opaque parts of our system

14:25

of government. But on

14:27

some level, it is good

14:29

news for Donald Trump that the whole

14:31

country isn't seeing this live on video.

14:35

But of course, his fate is tied

14:37

up here nonetheless, right? This judge has

14:39

the power to send him to jail

14:41

if he continues to rack

14:44

up these contemptive court citations. He clearly

14:46

was risking another one in the courtroom

14:48

today with the cursing audibly. You use

14:51

that quote. That's a quote, apparently, from

14:53

the transcript itself. You

14:55

know, it's pretty remarkable stuff, but

14:58

I do wonder whether the country

15:00

is really fully absorbing this

15:02

because it's not

15:05

right there on video and on television for

15:07

them. They're not used to things, frankly, anymore

15:09

that aren't live streamed and instantly available to

15:11

them anymore. Barb, a miserable

15:14

day in court for Trump, but

15:16

a bright and sunny day for him in

15:19

Florida. His classified documents case. Today,

15:21

his favorite judge in the whole

15:23

wide world, Aileen Cannon, indefinitely postponed

15:25

the trial down there, granted him

15:27

a delay, the one that he

15:30

wanted on a key paperwork deadline.

15:32

I mean, what is going

15:34

on here? Can Jack Smith appeal? It is

15:36

like Trump always says, like, there's

15:38

a two tiered system that the courts are

15:41

biased against him or they're controlling the Department

15:43

of Justice. If there's

15:45

any bias, if there's anything political, it's Aileen

15:47

Cannon hooking this guy up every which way.

15:51

Yeah, you know, I never want to impute bad

15:53

faith to any judge based on the decisions that

15:56

they're making, but this one is really very difficult

15:58

to figure in part because She

16:00

hasn't really explained why she has

16:02

extended all of these deadlines so

16:04

consistently. And now, as you say,

16:07

not just moving the trial date,

16:09

but suspending it indefinitely. She

16:11

cites, as she is required to, the

16:13

Speedy Trial Act and explains why she

16:15

is following that because, of course, it

16:18

is not just the defendant's right to a speedy

16:20

trial, but the public also has a right

16:23

to a speedy trial. But what

16:25

she says is that the fair administration

16:27

of justice requires that this be delayed

16:29

indefinitely in light of the complexity

16:31

of the issues and all of the pending

16:34

motions and decisions that she has

16:36

to make about the use of classified information,

16:38

and therefore the date can't be set until all

16:40

of that gets worked through. But

16:43

it really does seem that

16:45

this has been a slow walk of this case.

16:48

This is a case that is not that

16:50

difficult. It has a finite number of exhibits,

16:53

a finite number of witnesses. I

16:56

really would have expected this case to have

16:58

been tried to verdict by now and

17:00

instead is on a slow track and now

17:02

appears that it will not be tried before

17:04

the election. Do you think it

17:06

ever will be, Katie? I mean, think

17:08

about what President Trump is

17:11

accused of doing. Think about the

17:13

images, the boxes and boxes and

17:15

boxes at Mar-a-Lago, the repeated attempts

17:18

not to return these documents to the

17:21

government. Do you think this case will ever see

17:23

the light of day, honestly? Well,

17:26

can you believe that, Jen, at

17:28

the beginning of your show with the fact

17:30

that we're in trial over the Manhattan DA's

17:32

case and not one of the federal prosecutions?

17:34

I mean, Donald Trump is one

17:36

of the only criminal defendants that gets rewarded for

17:39

the more crime that he does, the more delays

17:41

that he gets. But Aileen Cannon, to your point,

17:43

has never been the target of his ire. He's

17:45

never, she's never been the target of his criticism.

17:50

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for the love of home. The

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Angie's List you know and trust is

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now Angie, and we're so much more

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than just a list. We still connect

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angie.com. That's A-N-G-I, or

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download the app today. I

18:55

think I just lost Katie's audio. Four

18:57

at a time. We're going to leave it there.

18:59

Katie, Susan, Barbara, thank you. Before we go to

19:01

break, though, you know what it's time for, an

19:04

update on our DJ T-Tracker. Follow me how Trump's

19:06

media company is doing. The stock was

19:08

down around $1.50 to the

19:10

close, closing at about $48 a share. But

19:13

it was another Trump business that caught our

19:15

eye today. The Wall Street Journal reporting that

19:18

one of his most important skyscrapers, a block

19:20

away from the New York Stock Exchange, is

19:22

getting hit by the lack of people going

19:24

back to work. 21%

19:27

of the building is sitting empty. And next

19:29

year, Donald Trump might have to refinance

19:31

the mortgage. Now, for

19:33

everyone who says that Donald

19:35

Trump, he's the pro-business candidate,

19:37

he's the business guy, he's

19:39

got corporate America's ear. Well,

19:41

he was sitting in the courtroom today while

19:43

President Joe Biden actually met with a

19:46

group of CEOs at the White House

19:48

to talk about how to ensure our

19:51

strong economic growth. Those

19:53

are the two snapshots we saw today. When

19:55

we come back, President Biden brings down

19:57

the hammer on anti-Semitism in the U.S.

20:01

Israel and Hamas return to the

20:03

negotiating table for a possible to

20:05

fire and later Marjorie Taylor Green

20:07

as I were talking ceasefire lays

20:09

out her demands for speaker My

20:11

Johnson who have all the letters

20:13

our just getting underway and are

20:15

using only see. Her

20:26

every place yet America for any

20:28

services or a speech for threats

20:30

of violence of any size. Whole

20:44

lot. President.

20:48

Biden marked Holocaust Remembrance Day by

20:50

condemning anti semitism in no uncertain

20:53

terms. He called out the protests

20:55

over the Israel Hamas for that

20:57

have taken over college campuses says

20:59

Hours before he spoke Israel's military

21:01

seized a T border crossing in

21:03

Southern Gaza and there is still

21:06

in know ceasefire deal between Hamas

21:08

to release the hostages from October

21:10

Seventh for more. I want to bring in

21:12

Ben Rhodes she serves as. Deputy National Security

21:14

Advisor for President Obama and his

21:16

M S N B C contributor

21:18

Banish You was written presidential speeches,

21:21

Did. This one hit the right tone to

21:23

bring down the temperature here at home.

21:25

Can people even hear it at this

21:27

point? i

21:31

think people were injured i mean look

21:33

the present a united states is the

21:35

only person with a bully pulpit big

21:38

enough to kind of breakthrough and married

21:40

events that have shaken the country and

21:42

in this instance we've seen an alarming

21:45

rise of anti semitism from all ends

21:47

of the political spectrum from the far

21:49

right before last and i think what

21:52

people were looking for his reassurance at

21:54

their core principles that their president stands

21:56

for and that's what he spoke to

21:58

on miserably resident obviously, with it

22:01

being Holocaust Remembrance Day, in

22:03

sending a message that whatever your views on

22:05

this conflict, whatever your views between

22:08

Israel and Palestine, that

22:10

we're not going to tolerate the kind of

22:12

anti-Semitism that we've seen rear its head in

22:14

certain quarters of America. And I think that

22:16

was a reassuring message to a lot of

22:18

people. NBC is reporting

22:20

tonight that the White House halted a weapons

22:23

shipment for Israel over concerns that they would

22:25

be used in Rafah. What do you think

22:27

about that? Well,

22:31

I think Rafah has loomed for

22:33

months as a potential kind of

22:35

breaking point between Prime

22:37

Minister Netanyahu and President Biden. President

22:40

Biden's called this a red line. I think the concerns

22:42

out of the White House are that

22:45

the civilian population, Rafah is

22:47

enormous. There's over a million people there.

22:49

Many of them have already been displaced once before. It's

22:53

also the major aid crossing into Gaza.

22:55

So when you're dealing with shortages of

22:57

water and food, you cannot afford to

22:59

lose the Rafah crossing, among

23:02

others. And so I think the

23:04

concern for the administration is if Israel goes forward

23:06

with the kind of ground invasion and bombardment of

23:08

Rafah that we've seen in other parts of Gaza,

23:11

that it could really accelerate the

23:13

humanitarian crisis. And so

23:15

I think the suspension of

23:17

the delivery of those offensive weapons,

23:20

which included 2,000-pound bombs, is

23:22

a bit of an indication of

23:24

the administration's message privately to Prime Minister

23:26

Netanyahu, which is that this is not

23:28

the time and the way to go

23:30

forward with this operation. There's a

23:33

ceasefire negotiation to try to get some of the hostages

23:35

out. And frankly, clearly, whatever

23:37

assurances the Israeli government has tried

23:40

to give the Biden administration about

23:42

their plans to mitigate civilian deaths

23:44

and civilian suffering in Rafah, those

23:47

have clearly not met the

23:49

mark for the Biden administration. So if the

23:51

Rafah invasion goes forward, I

23:53

think we're probably looking at some kind

23:55

of continuation of what has been

23:58

a continued break between the U.S. and the U.S. Biden

24:00

Netanyahu. Let's talk about that

24:02

ceasefire negotiation, because today the National Security

24:05

Council said it believes Israel

24:07

and Hamas will be able to

24:09

close the gaps on those

24:11

ceasefire talks. That's

24:14

an indirect wording. What do you think they're actually saying?

24:16

Are we close on getting a deal here? I

24:19

think they're trying to nudge both sides here.

24:22

I mean, there's clearly some deal on the

24:24

table that involves a release of around 33

24:26

Israeli hostages in exchange

24:29

for a pretty significant number of Palestinian

24:31

prisoners. I think the main sticking point,

24:33

though, does kind of come back to

24:35

Ratha in the sense that the Israeli

24:37

government is willing to agree to a

24:39

kind of short-term ceasefire, a

24:41

period of weeks. And what Hamas

24:43

has insisted upon in the terms

24:45

that they agreed to is a

24:47

permanent cessation of hostilities, a ceasefire

24:49

that holds for the long term.

24:52

And that's really the most profound gap between

24:54

the two sides. I think what

24:56

the Biden administration is trying to do and trying

24:58

to find some middle ground is

25:00

to have a release of hostages, have a

25:02

ceasefire for a period of time that can

25:05

allow them to conduct some diplomacy, to see

25:07

if there is something they can build upon,

25:09

something that can get momentum here. So

25:12

it feels to me like the two

25:14

sides are pretty far apart. They're trying

25:16

aggressively to close this window now, because

25:18

if the Raff invasion goes forward, they

25:20

might lose the opportunity of having any

25:22

kind of negotiated release of hostages in

25:24

the coming weeks. So we're really at

25:26

a critical juncture in this war, Stephanie, where if we

25:29

don't get a ceasefire in the coming days

25:32

and that Raff operation goes forward, we're probably

25:34

looking at a much longer war than

25:36

what the administration wants. What

25:39

the world wants. Ben, thank you so much for

25:41

joining us. I appreciate it. When we return, Donald

25:44

Trump plays mediator. That's right. I'm going

25:46

to say this to you one more

25:48

time. Donald Trump is currently playing mediator

25:51

As Marjorie Taylor Greene beat the

25:53

speaker, Mike Johnson. But Is it

25:55

enough to keep the fracture GOP

25:57

back together? Repeat

26:00

that. I get a tsunami the front of

26:02

a break. I

26:11

intend to leave Us conference of in the future.

26:13

I'm honored to be able to do that aspect

26:15

of doing that The future I'm going to have

26:18

a sport of President Trump. Sticker.

26:21

Like Johnson sounds optimists said about

26:23

the chances of keeping his job.

26:26

One reason he might be optimistic

26:28

because Donald Trump is supposedly ordinance

26:30

on storm Political reporting that Trump

26:32

had a quote lazy phone call

26:34

this weekend with Georgia Republican Marjorie

26:36

Taylor Greens was the leading the

26:39

efforts else Johnson Trump reportedly urge

26:41

Green to stand down and after

26:43

two days of negotiations with Johnson

26:45

today she sees of back off

26:47

her threat. I.

26:50

I'm so done with words, it's for

26:52

me. It's all about accents and that's

26:54

how the American people care about. At

26:57

this point they have all they have

26:59

seen from politicians as promises after promises

27:01

and nothing that broken promises that I

27:03

walked out of that meeting. I mean

27:06

obviously the I you can't make things

27:08

happen instantly and we all are aware

27:10

and understanding of that. I'm so now

27:12

the ball is in his course Last

27:14

week. He. Said you're absolutely absolutely the To

27:17

Says this is that no longer the

27:19

To. Well we'll see

27:21

accepted My Johnson. The

27:24

chaos continues from our our never

27:26

Gained Access political reporter Hands Nichols

27:28

and Amanda Carpenter writer and editor

27:30

for Project Democracy and former senior

27:33

staffer to Republican Senators Gym The

27:35

Men and Ted Cruz, Amanda Trump.

27:38

Is. Apparently now the one encouraging unity

27:40

among how C O P I am

27:42

dying to get your reaction to this.

27:44

He created this mess the finale begging

27:46

them to clean it out. Why? Oh.

27:51

I might be one of the last

27:53

people to ask your viewers a have

27:56

pity and all top and like. Let

27:58

me make clear, I'm not asking them

28:00

to do that but can you imagine

28:03

been Donald Trump and having to spend

28:05

all your time preparing for these trials

28:07

coming from multiple angles and you have

28:10

to spend time on the phones mediating

28:12

differences between Marjorie Taylor Grains and Speaker

28:14

Johnson? Me? it's really just like in

28:17

absurd situation and the reality is is

28:19

that. The democrats say

28:21

is my shots and they're all pretending.

28:23

That some other dynamic is happening. The reality

28:26

is that there's not going to be a

28:28

motion to remove him because the democrats have

28:30

signal that they would support him. He know

28:32

as long as he sees them it seems

28:35

and things like funding for you plane. And

28:37

said he did this to me. Seems to be

28:39

that they're trying. To find an exit

28:41

ramp away to come up with

28:44

this list of Edo Silly, the

28:46

man that essentially just the lasers

28:48

fight until September possibly for another

28:50

government shutdowns, but as long as

28:52

authentic pedometer on his side. Don't

28:56

have anybody both actually that responsible

28:58

governing school in Santa Washington right

29:00

now. Hands I see. Smirking

29:03

over there, To Mars or

29:05

Telegrams actually keep holding the threat over

29:07

John sense now they're trying to tell

29:09

her not to. At the end of

29:11

the day, smarter Teller Green has never

29:13

had one original idea or initiative she

29:15

doesn't on tell her to do. All.

29:20

Over that I think we'll see I'm

29:22

in Missouri. my she didn't take the

29:24

sort of table she just said will

29:26

see so you me and have been

29:28

right and then maybe she can take

29:31

the marching orders from from President Trump.

29:33

I'm going to respect when slightly disagree

29:35

with Amanda a little bit here which

29:37

the say that I think Donald Trump

29:39

love this movie being charged or he

29:42

loves having people come to him and

29:44

solicit his views. This is what as

29:46

the queer titular readers is partially in

29:48

every shape or form. this is what

29:50

he likes to do now he may predict

29:52

some because the chaos but he also likes

29:55

have people listen to him call them up

29:57

seekers advice and give them order so you

29:59

know Yes, he's had a couple rough days

30:01

in court, and today was no exception. And I

30:03

really hope we don't have to talk about that

30:06

later, Stephanie. But for Trump, this

30:08

was probably a nice survey, a nice break from

30:10

a lot of the chaos, at least

30:12

in the courtroom, where he can be the party

30:14

leader and act presidential, dare

30:16

I say, in mediating a dispute between

30:18

two members of his party. All

30:20

right, well, he may be the party leader, but

30:23

not all members of that party or their voters

30:25

are happy about him. Nikki Haleyhans.

30:27

She got 120,000 plus votes in

30:32

the Indiana primary tonight. That is 20%. This

30:36

woman has been out of the race for

30:38

two months. Do we need

30:40

more evidence that Republicans do

30:42

not want a criminal defendant

30:45

as their nominee? Yeah,

30:48

I mean, look, with Indiana, I think some

30:50

Democrats do cross over. I could be wrong on

30:52

that, so I'm sure the internet will correct

30:54

me if I'm wrong. But this rump sort

30:56

of vote for Nikki Haleyhans at

30:58

least in Republican primaries, whether or not

31:00

crossover's allowed, it's so clearly telling us

31:02

something. Now, we don't know what

31:05

yet. We know that there's some queasiness with

31:07

a certain amount of Republicans about Donald Trump,

31:09

that there's a protest vote, but we still

31:11

don't know is whether or not they're gonna

31:13

vote for Joe Biden. And the people that

31:15

are asking that question themselves, that question so

31:17

clearly and critically, is Joe Biden's campaign. Because

31:20

every private conversation I have with him, not

31:22

every, but many of them, is

31:24

how are they going to appeal to those

31:26

Nikki Haley voters because it's

31:28

clearly an opportunity for the Biden campaign. They don't know

31:30

if they can get it across the line and get

31:32

them to pull the trigger and pull the lever

31:34

for Joe Biden, but it's clearly going to

31:37

be their strategy and their tactic moving forward.

31:39

Amanda, let's talk about Trump's criminal trial

31:41

because Hans doesn't want to. I

31:44

wanna put things in political

31:46

perspective. Do you remember Howard Dean? Howard

31:49

Dean made like an unsettling scream

31:52

and his campaign came to a screeching

31:54

halt. Michael Dukakis rode in

31:56

on a tank and it ran over

31:58

his presidential run. When Mitt

32:00

Romney referenced binders full of women,

32:03

America threw the book at him.

32:06

Now Donald Trump, we had

32:08

to hear yet again today, was

32:10

spanked with a magazine by a

32:12

porn star who reminded him of

32:14

his daughter. And

32:16

this man is the current GOP

32:19

front runner. I want

32:21

you to explain this to me. And by

32:23

this, I don't mean Trump. I

32:25

mean the American voter. Well,

32:29

I think what comes to mind immediately is

32:31

cost. They've invested

32:33

so much into him at this point. There's

32:35

no getting off this train until it derails

32:38

totally off the traps. And, you

32:40

know, he brought up the results

32:42

from Indiana. You know,

32:45

I think what we've seen throughout

32:47

the Republican primary is that there

32:49

is a broad, vibrant, anti-Trump

32:51

coalition. They may be voting for

32:53

Nikki Haley right now, but that,

32:56

you know, we will see if it

32:58

will be translated into Biden votes come

33:00

November. But I mean, just look at

33:02

what has happened since January 6th. I

33:05

mean, you've had Liz Cheney, Adam

33:07

Kinzinger, you know, his vice

33:09

president, Mike Pence, saying that

33:11

they will not vote for

33:13

this man for various reasons. And the

33:15

next election. I mean, you can't dismiss

33:18

that from the story. Yes,

33:20

he is going to be the Republican nominee.

33:22

Yes. We will go on this whole thing

33:24

where he's going to select the vice president.

33:26

And that process is going to play out

33:28

because it can't be undone at this point.

33:31

But that doesn't mean that he enjoys the full

33:33

kind of support he did in 2016 or even

33:36

2020. Hans,

33:38

weigh in here. I

33:41

just want to talk about the trial

33:44

in Florida. I want to keep it

33:46

out of that. I mean, honestly, if

33:48

I'm Howard Dean watching this, I'm thinking.

33:50

We're not going to talk about what

33:52

kind of magazine it was. That's the

33:54

only follow up question there. But we're

33:57

obviously there's a unique day in court and

33:59

a lot of people. said clever, appropriate and

34:01

inappropriate things. I'm going to say none of

34:03

those and just pun to Amanda and Amanda,

34:05

tell me what's happening with that classified document

34:07

trial. I mean, we got a suspension from

34:09

the case down there. Let's just move it

34:11

down to Florida. Fine. You know

34:13

what I was going to ask you Hans?

34:16

Stormy Daniels in her testimony said that when

34:18

Donald Trump answered the door in the silk

34:20

pajamas, she told him to put his clothes

34:22

on. How often has Stormy Daniels said that

34:24

to a man when they opened the door?

34:27

Amanda, Hans, thank you both. We were waiting

34:29

an hour and stuff. I was. I was just

34:31

saving it up. When we come back,

34:34

it is the biggest business in US

34:36

politics, lobbying and the worst, the most

34:38

disgusting. We're going to take a look

34:40

at its unstoppable rise to power in

34:42

DC. You love it. That will continue.

34:55

It's almost midnight, which means it is time

34:57

to give you a nightmare. You know what

34:59

we always say on this show. If you

35:01

want answers, you just got to follow the

35:03

money. But these days, it's not always that

35:06

simple. That is because K Street, the lobbying

35:08

headquarters of DC, is getting

35:10

more and more complicated and creative

35:12

with how it influences Washington. Just

35:14

last year, special interest groups, are

35:16

you ready for this number? Spent

35:18

a record breaking $4.2

35:22

billion lobbying federal lawmakers. You wonder why

35:24

things don't get done. And those numbers,

35:27

they're only getting bigger. Well, I want

35:29

to welcome brothers Brody and Luke Mullins.

35:31

They join me now. Brody is an

35:34

investigative reporter for the Wall Street Journal.

35:36

And Luke is a contributing writer for

35:38

political and together, they wrote the book,

35:40

The Wolves of K Street, the secret

35:43

history of how big money took over

35:45

big government is out now. Gentlemen,

35:48

it's no secret. It is our

35:50

awful reality. But people don't even realize

35:52

how it works. So what inspired you to write this

35:55

book? Well, you started off

35:57

talking about mostly show today about sex. We're talking

35:59

about. money in power and Washington. All

36:01

connected. All connected. And

36:04

the corporate lobbyists paying so much money

36:06

on trying to get what they

36:08

want in Washington, you said $4.2 billion. That's just

36:10

a part of it. That's the amount that's actually

36:13

disclosed. There is maybe 10, 20 times as much

36:15

as not disclosed in how lobbyists actually seek

36:17

to get what they want in Washington. The

36:20

big change that's happened in lobbying over

36:22

the past 40 years is the

36:24

focus in terms of the

36:27

tactics that lobbyists are using has moved

36:29

away from this sort of smoke-filled room

36:31

sort of direct lobbying. Dinner, cigars, champagne.

36:33

Their own right to the voters. Exactly.

36:37

Wow. How? Basically,

36:39

they look at any sort of lobbying campaign

36:41

as almost like a presidential campaign. So

36:44

in order to influence a

36:46

voter, in order to put

36:48

pressure on their member of

36:50

Congress, they're using sophisticated media

36:52

campaigns, social media,

36:54

grassroots tactics, polling. And

36:57

the whole idea is that this is moving

36:59

the influence business from

37:01

Washington basically into the

37:03

living rooms of

37:05

every American. The number one thing

37:07

we found in Washington is that members of Congress exist to

37:10

get reelected. So if corporate

37:12

lobbyists can convince their constituents

37:14

to vote for an issue

37:18

that companies support, then the member of Congress

37:20

will follow. I want to share

37:22

a quote that you open the

37:24

book with. It's from a Washington lobbying firm,

37:26

Patton Boggs, that says this. Get

37:29

worried. It was built

37:31

on the idea that the law

37:33

can be changed to achieve client

37:35

objectives. We see the

37:37

law as a dynamic process, not

37:40

an immutable rules and procedures. When

37:43

did that reality become

37:46

Washington? So I'm pretty sure

37:48

that that quote is pulled from the 1980s. And

37:52

it would be from that era when the 70s

37:54

corporations, we have this revolution of

37:56

corporate power.

38:00

And corporate

38:02

interests were able to essentially take over Washington

38:04

and sort of vanquish what

38:06

had been their adversaries in

38:09

the union movement, environmental

38:12

groups, public interest groups, and they really start

38:14

to go on the offense during the 80s.

38:17

And that quote sort of

38:20

reflects that ethos, that

38:22

the law for

38:24

those that have access is

38:28

not immutable. It's something that just

38:30

happens to be written down, but you can

38:32

change it if you have the

38:34

right lobbyists. But the truth is that

38:37

every time Congress throws up

38:39

restrictions around how lobbying works

38:41

in this country, these

38:43

lobbyists find a way around it.

38:45

That's our reality. Yeah, that's one of the problems.

38:47

We have a great quote. Is it because they're the ones writing half

38:50

of these laws at this point? Probably. We have

38:52

a great quote in the book from one

38:54

of our main characters, Tony Podesta, who said

38:56

that if Congress outlawed lobbyists

38:59

from driving, they would just all get

39:01

cars and drivers. And that's true. And

39:03

so much of the evolution in the

39:05

lobbying industry over the past four decades

39:07

has really been driven by these reforms.

39:09

And when we have any type of

39:11

reform, it basically forces lobbyists to innovate

39:13

in order to create new tactics to

39:15

get around those reforms.

39:17

And that makes the industry sort of more

39:20

sort of to operate

39:22

more underground. Right. Oh, great. Just

39:24

what we wanted. You

39:26

write in the book that

39:29

after Trump, sort of the

39:31

lobbying industrial complex needed to

39:33

reinvent itself. Why would Trump really

39:35

change lobbying? He kind of became sort of a

39:37

throwback. We're talking about how lobbying is moved from

39:39

D.C. to outside to the constituents and voters. Trump

39:41

changed things. Trump had

39:44

so much power over policy. He sort of ran

39:46

roughshod over Congress or his own administration that in

39:48

order to hold on, hold on. But

39:50

how? What did he get done? He didn't

39:52

know he wasn't seen infrastructure leaks in a wall because

39:55

he knew he couldn't get anything done. He worked through

39:57

executive orders and therefore he would just sign things away.

40:00

In order to lobby Trump, you need to know the few

40:02

people around him who knew him, and there's only a handful

40:04

of those folks. Well, he's easy to lobby. Hire

40:07

his aides. Hire his

40:09

aides, rent out a whole floor at the

40:11

Trump Hotel right now by DJ P. Stock.

40:14

Isn't he the easiest one to lobby? Well,

40:16

he's very transactional in that sense.

40:18

Yeah, that's what's going on right

40:20

now with TikTok and Jeffree Yass.

40:23

Yes, correct. Correct. So

40:26

what's the most important takeaway? You wrote this with

40:28

the sole purpose of what do you want

40:30

people to understand? Two important takeaways. One is

40:32

that- Call your congressperson and a

40:35

lobbyist will answer. One

40:37

takeaway is that corporations are at the height of

40:39

their power right now, and they're fighting against no

40:41

one. There's no strong labor groups. There's no strong

40:43

environmental groups. There's no strong opponents. So when members

40:45

of Congress are trying to pass a law, they're

40:47

really only talking to corporate lobbyists. They're not talking

40:49

to the other side. You

40:52

wonder why the carry interest loopholes

40:54

still exist. Ladies

40:56

and gentlemen, just leave it out. Congratulations

40:58

on the book. Thank you. I told you

41:00

we were giving you a nightmare. When we

41:02

return, not a nightmare, a fantastic story. A

41:04

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41:07

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home. home projects done well. Visit angie.com.

42:01

You can do this when you Angie

42:04

that. The

42:10

last thing before we go tonight, you've

42:12

got mail. A postal worker in Grand

42:15

Prairie, Texas made a surprising discovery while

42:17

loading his truck last month. A

42:19

number of undelivered letters from an Army

42:21

veteran during World War II. The postal

42:23

worker is also a veteran, and he

42:25

made it his mission to deliver the

42:27

letters. Talisa Hampton with

42:29

our affiliate K-A-R-K has more.

42:34

Traveling all the way from Grand Prairie,

42:36

Texas, this post office

42:38

worker made the long drive to

42:41

Jacksonville, Arkansas. All

42:43

to deliver this special piece of

42:45

mail to this grateful family. On

42:48

April 25th, Alvin Dauche found undelivered letters while

42:51

at work that ranged from 1942 to 1945

42:53

from World War II Army veteran Marion Lamb,

42:55

but they had

42:58

little detail of where to send them. I

43:00

basically just held it and did my

43:03

research contacting you all and here we

43:05

are. After helpful emails and phone calls,

43:07

Alvin's job took a different route after

43:10

finding Marion's family. I'm delivering the mail

43:12

to Arkansas. I'm very excited and

43:15

very terrible. Debbie Smith Marion's niece says

43:17

the letters got lost when a family

43:19

member in Tennessee sent them to her

43:22

in Texas in a package full of

43:24

their family history. It didn't look like

43:26

someone had opened it, just the package

43:28

came apart. Joanne Smith, Marion's youngest sister,

43:30

says all of her five siblings have

43:32

died. Marion died in 2010 and the

43:35

letters in her hands are single to

43:37

none. It's a connection with my family.

43:39

They could hardly wait to read

43:41

Marion's words for the first time.

43:43

And ask Joanne if she remembers

43:45

me. I just appreciate

43:49

Alvin. He has really gone out of his

43:51

way. People connect on

43:53

different levels and I

43:55

feel is connected to Alvin and I do

43:57

my family. Thankful their family history was not

43:59

a problem. lost. Alvin, a Marine

44:01

Corps veteran, understands. I wrote letters home

44:03

to my parents when I was in Iraq. Miriam's

44:05

words then brought together his family. He

44:08

was a hugger. And his letters are

44:10

still doing that now as they consider

44:12

Alvin part of the family. He made

44:14

mom cry. A

44:20

simple act of kindness takes

44:22

us off the air tonight.

44:24

And I want to apologize. I should not

44:26

have made a Stormy Daniels joke earlier. Certainly

44:28

not about a woman. And certainly not about

44:31

a woman who had a tough day on

44:33

the stand. And on that note, I wish

44:35

you a very good night. Ari

44:37

Melber is up next. From all of our

44:39

colleagues across the networks of NBC News, thanks

44:41

for staying up late with me. I'll see you at the

44:44

end of tonight. The

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