0:00

Time for a quick break to talk about

0:02

McDonald's. Mornings are for mixing and matching at

0:04

McDonald's. For just $3, mix and match two

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of your favorite breakfast items, including a

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sausage McMuffin. Tonight

0:26

Donald Trump hi thanks, Legal battles

0:28

collide the Supreme court ways his

0:30

claim a presidential immunity from prosecution

0:33

for plotting to overturn the Twenty

0:35

Two Thousand election Has a key

0:37

witness testified that it's first criminal

0:39

trial about the alleged to catch

0:41

and kill scales to help Us

0:44

Twenty Sixteen campaign and with Trump

0:46

tied up in court, Bidens campaign

0:48

goes on the offense, making a

0:50

play for Nikki Haley voters in

0:52

swing states. As the eleventh hour

0:54

gets underway, On this Thursday night.

1:03

And good evening. I'm Katie Fang

1:05

In First Stephanie Ruhle. We're now

1:07

one hundred ninety four days away

1:09

from the election. But. Today all

1:12

eyes were on the United States Supreme

1:14

Court. Justices hearing oral arguments

1:16

and Trump vs the United

1:18

States. This. Is the case?

1:20

That's all about the former presidents

1:22

controversial claim that he's immune from

1:25

criminal prosecution? These are the questions

1:27

at hand. What? Does the

1:29

scope of presidential immunity and

1:31

what constitutes an official act?

1:34

Our. Own Laura Jarrett has more

1:36

on today's argue. Its. Tonight.

1:39

The Us Supreme Court weighing a

1:41

monumental question that will decide whether

1:43

the former President goes to trial

1:45

for plotting to overturn the last

1:47

election and when. The

1:50

Supreme Lord Of. The

1:53

poor dog before Mister.

1:55

trump hoping to persuade the justices

1:57

to find him immune from federal

2:00

trial charges, his lawyers arguing the

2:02

office of the presidency would be

2:04

completely hobbled without that protection. Without

2:07

presidential immunity from criminal prosecution,

2:10

there can be no presidency as we know it.

2:12

The special counsel's office indicted Mr.

2:14

Trump on conspiracy and obstruction charges

2:17

last year for his efforts to

2:19

cling to power, accusing the likely

2:21

GOP nominee of pressuring state officials

2:24

to reverse the election results. President

2:27

DOJ argues it were for purely

2:29

personal gain and cannot be shielded

2:31

from prosecution. There is no immunity

2:34

that is in the Constitution unless

2:37

this court creates it today. The

2:40

conservatives expressing concern if future presidents

2:42

have no immunity for actions taken

2:44

while in the White House. That

2:46

could open the door to recriminations

2:48

between political rivals. Will that

2:50

not lead us into a

2:54

cycle that destabilizes

2:56

the functioning of our country as

2:58

a democracy? The liberal justices

3:00

troubled by the prospect of insulating

3:02

presidents from accountability, raising a series

3:05

of dark hypotheticals to underscore

3:07

the consequences of adopting Mr.

3:09

Trump's position. If a president sells

3:12

nuclear secrets to a foreign adversary,

3:14

is that immune?

3:17

How about if a president orders

3:19

the military to stage a coup?

3:21

That sure sounds bad, doesn't it?

3:23

I'm trying to understand what the

3:26

disincentive is from turning the Oval

3:28

Office into the seat of

3:31

criminal activity in this country. The

3:35

justices appear to be skeptical of

3:37

blanket criminal immunity for presidents. However,

3:39

they could send a case back

3:41

to the lower court to explore

3:43

limited protections, which would

3:45

further delay the special counsel's trial

3:47

against Donald Trump. With

3:50

that, let's bring in our lead-off panel, Peter

3:52

Baker, Chief White House Correspondent for the New

3:54

York Times. Mark Joseph Stern, Senior

3:56

Writer covering the courts and the law at

3:58

Slate. Josh Garcia, Senior Writer. legal affairs

4:00

reporter for Politico and former U.S. Attorney Joyce

4:02

Vance, who spent 25 years as a federal

4:06

prosecutor. My thanks to all of you

4:08

for joining me this evening. It was

4:10

a huge legal day, so I want

4:12

to start in D.C. at SCOTUS. Josh,

4:14

Mark, I, we, the three of us,

4:16

we were all in the courtroom today

4:18

for arguments, so let's start first with

4:20

your main takeaways. Josh, I'm going to

4:23

start with you. Well,

4:26

I thought it had to be

4:28

a dispiriting day for special counsel

4:30

Jack Smith. He saw one

4:32

after another of the members of the

4:35

conservative majority on the court basically

4:37

signaled discomfort with his position

4:40

and some degree of alignment

4:42

with Trump's claim that there should be at least

4:45

some type of immunity or protection

4:48

for a former president from criminal charges. I,

4:50

I absorb a vivid memory

4:52

of sitting there and having each of

4:54

those justices, I'm thinking of Justice

4:56

Brett Kavanaugh, Chief Justice John

4:59

Roberts and Justice Neil

5:02

Gorsuch, for example, go through one

5:04

by one and make pretty clear

5:06

that they were not going to come

5:08

out in this case the way Jack Smith wants

5:10

them to come out. And at that point, it's

5:12

a numbers game that I don't think looks too

5:14

good for him. You know,

5:16

Mark, were you as surprised as

5:18

I was to hear the line of

5:20

questioning that came out of some of

5:23

the more conservative justices like Brett Kavanaugh

5:25

and Neil Gorsuch and Samuel Lito? I

5:29

was. And the sense that

5:31

I got from those justices was that

5:33

to them, to their minds, the real

5:35

threat to democracy was not Trump's effort

5:38

on January 6th to overturn a free

5:40

and fair presidential election.

5:43

The true threat to democracy is

5:45

the Justice Department's effort to hold

5:47

him accountable for that act. And

5:49

I did not expect

5:51

this kind of minimization of January 6th

5:53

that we saw from the justices.

5:55

Frankly, my sense is that the conservative

5:57

bloc just didn't Think that the. Our

6:00

interaction at the capitol was.feet of

6:02

a deal and so instead of

6:04

Syrians are concerned about what it

6:06

would mean to let the president

6:09

off stop briefs for allegedly plotted

6:11

in facilitating this violence or olufsen

6:13

subversion of we heard these justices

6:15

try to say well that's talked

6:17

about the abstract principles here don't

6:19

we need president's to act boldly

6:22

and fearless leader as the we

6:24

haven't seen him. An object lesson

6:26

in what happens when a president

6:28

thinks he's on accountable and. As

6:30

if we aren't here you know in

6:32

this here in hims in this case

6:34

to try to decide whether or not

6:36

as a democracy it's this country is

6:38

going to say it's even the president

6:40

is not himself above the law. It

6:43

a joy to deluded pointing out on

6:45

social media that the court and the

6:47

party's discuss everything but the specific questions

6:50

at Han Even Justice, The Taji Browns,

6:52

apps and of my opinion kind of

6:54

got to the hearts of that matter

6:56

as well. During arguments choice when she

6:58

asks driven who represents the government's is

7:00

this is like what can we just

7:03

answer The question has been presented as

7:05

everybody was dancing around that to Marks

7:07

points choice. Is there a reason why

7:09

the core actually didn't try to address

7:11

the question for sunset. So.

7:14

This was an unusual argument in a

7:16

lot of ways. Katie, not only did

7:18

they have trouble coming to the point

7:20

of the question that they themselves wrote

7:23

for this argument, they also had a

7:25

lot of trouble talking about Donald Trump.

7:27

This was a court that was very

7:29

focused on the impact that whatever decision

7:31

they reach I'm would have in the

7:34

future and on future presidents and really

7:36

not particularly interested in talking about Donald

7:38

Trump. You know you and I have

7:40

both have been around a lot of

7:42

criminal appellate arguments and. i don't think

7:45

i've ever had an an argument that

7:47

didn't focus at least in part on

7:49

the defendant and his conduct and how

7:51

the ruling would impact him back here

7:53

that didn't seem to be the focus

7:55

the court was supposed to take up

7:57

the issue of whether the prices president

8:00

had immunity from official acts, and if

8:02

so, what the scope of that immunity

8:05

was. And instead, we were

8:07

far afield and all over the board.

8:09

Everything from this issue of whether presidents

8:11

had to be specifically included in a

8:14

criminal statute before they could be prosecuted,

8:16

on the other hand, to whether or

8:18

not, you know, presidents' personal acts

8:21

could be prosecuted, which

8:24

was something, frankly, that Trump's lawyer conceded

8:26

up front. And so why

8:28

that was ever on the table was

8:31

very confusing, but Justice Alito had proposed

8:33

this alternative test, and the conversation really

8:35

went far afield. It was a very

8:38

messy argument. You know,

8:40

Peter, take a quick listen to what Jamie

8:42

Raskin had to say on how things went

8:44

at the Supreme Court today. There

8:48

are politicians who are not even subject to popular

8:50

election, unlike me. They should

8:52

move the Supreme Court over to

8:54

the RNC headquarters because they're

8:57

acting like a bunch of partisan operatives.

9:00

I mean, Peter, this is not the first time

9:03

we've heard criticism that the highest court of the

9:05

land has been hyperpoliticized. Considering

9:08

the substance of the arguments today,

9:10

does this particular case kind

9:12

of, you know, raise even more questions

9:14

about the credibility of this? Well,

9:18

it'll certainly create a lot of concern and

9:20

conversation about it, and it'll create some criticism

9:22

as the kind you just saw from Congressman

9:24

Raskin. Let's go back

9:26

and look at history for a second. When the

9:28

Supreme Court was presented with the question of whether

9:31

Richard Nixon could withhold the tapes from the Watergate

9:33

special prosecutor, the chief justice at the time, Warren

9:35

Burger, thought it was important enough that the

9:38

court would speak with a single voice. He

9:40

forged an eight to zero unanimous

9:42

verdict because he didn't want there to

9:44

be a perception that there were differences

9:47

depending on partisan backgrounds

9:49

and who might have appointed you and all

9:51

that kind of thing. Similarly, when the court

9:53

was presented with the question during Bill Clinton's

9:55

presidency, whether a president should be immune from

9:57

a civil Lawsuit, in his case,

10:00

a criminal. that's a harassment lawsuit filed

10:02

by Paula Jones. The court again spoke

10:04

with a single voice nine his ears

10:06

and know president have immunity from a

10:08

civil lawsuits. Here we're looking at is

10:10

the potential for a split verdict or

10:12

five or four Sixty three kind of

10:14

vertically wish to conserve as a largely

10:17

on one side. The liberals are largely

10:19

on the other side with will cores

10:21

that encourage the notion that this is

10:23

does ideological is just part is and

10:25

it's political. It's not really. Ah us

10:27

you know, a detached view. All the

10:29

loss. And therefore will not have the

10:31

same power that those previous Ah bird

10:34

it's had and I think that's the

10:36

danger I think she brought to Justice

10:38

Roberts who is expressed concern about their

10:41

credibility, the corps and and that a

10:43

political institutions ah good old faces another

10:45

challenge here as we watch to see

10:47

what kind of a rule is a

10:50

comeback was. Just I

10:52

wanted to ask you something that I

10:54

picked up on and I wonder knows

10:56

you heard it. There was some conversation,

10:58

albeit minor about Sex and Fifteen Twelve

11:01

and that's idea of the definition of

11:03

when somebody and a descendant state does

11:05

something corruptly. We've heard this applies to

11:07

date January Six Riders and the prosecution's

11:09

of them, but we also know that

11:11

that dovetails with the prosecution of Donald

11:14

Trump's did you pick up on that

11:16

and the fact that it sounded maybe

11:18

a little bit ominous about the future

11:20

of this prosecutions. Including that of Donald Trump.

11:24

Blood. Well, as you know, shady, we

11:26

have a related issue there involving those

11:28

prosecutions is already pending in front of

11:30

the court. Was already argued today's arguments

11:32

and on a trump. These were the

11:34

final arguments. Are. Of the terms

11:36

and it sounded to me based on

11:39

the comments of Justice Neil Gore situations

11:41

you may be alluding to death, the

11:43

court is kind of made up. It's

11:45

mind that there is a problem with

11:47

using this obstruction charging connection with the

11:49

events of January Six. Or. that

11:51

problem might extend for using it

11:53

in a couple pounds of the

11:56

four counts against our former president

11:58

donald trump's and course it's zeroed

12:00

in on the word corruptly that appears

12:02

in that obstruction statute. And he said

12:04

something like, nobody really knows what that

12:06

means. Well, goodness, when someone on the

12:08

Supreme Court is saying that some term

12:10

in a criminal charge that's been used

12:12

in a lot of cases, nobody

12:15

really knows what it means. It

12:17

does not bode well for Jack Smith being able

12:19

to use that charge

12:22

against former President Trump sometime in

12:24

the coming months. Yeah, and you're

12:26

right. And it was Gorsuch who made that statement.

12:28

And it kind of stood out to me because

12:30

I was worried about what it meant. Joyce, let's

12:32

talk about this proposed rubric that was discussed, kicking

12:35

the case perhaps back to the trial court

12:37

in front of Judge Chukin and then allowing

12:40

for this parsing out of what is an

12:42

official act versus a private act. And then

12:44

if you were to follow kind of the

12:46

logic, some of the conservative justices, you would

12:49

end up prosecuting only the personal or the

12:51

private act because those would be violative of

12:53

the law. But the official acts, Donald

12:56

Trump and others or presidents would be able

12:58

to get immunity. Talk about how fatally flawed

13:00

this is going to be. I'm putting aside

13:02

the delay because we all know that it

13:04

bakes in delay. But in terms of the

13:07

legal analysis, talk about the problems that are

13:09

generated by trying to do that type of,

13:11

I guess, different approach to this particular indictment.

13:15

So first, I'm going to be, I

13:17

don't want to be unduly optimistic, Katie,

13:19

but I'll pump the brakes a little

13:21

bit on speculation. Sometimes the final opinion

13:23

that the court issues has very little

13:25

resemblance to what goes on in oral

13:28

argument. It's always dangerous to read the

13:30

tea leaves too heavily. Sometimes the justices

13:32

are talking with each other in oral

13:34

argument as much as they are with

13:36

the litigants trying on arguments for size.

13:39

So it's possible that we won't see this

13:41

possibility that you're talking about pan out. You

13:43

know, I felt the same way about Justice

13:46

Gorsuch's comments about 1512 and the state of

13:48

mind. I took

13:50

it to think maybe he had come out on the losing

13:52

end of that battle, on the 1512 obstruction

13:56

of an official proceeding case, and maybe he

13:58

was expressing some sour grapes. So,

14:00

we'll see. But the argument

14:02

that you're talking about is one

14:04

where the justices would issue some sort

14:07

of a rule that established some way

14:09

of evaluating what conduct by a

14:11

president was official and what was private.

14:13

I think about this in terms of

14:16

Trump acting as President Trump on the

14:18

one hand and as Candidate

14:20

Trump on the other hand. That

14:23

would then go back down to the

14:25

lower court for Justice Chutkin, presumably to

14:27

make a ruling, I suppose. They

14:29

could also decide to send it back to

14:32

the Court of Appeals, but Trump's lawyer, John

14:34

Sauer, suggested it should go back to the

14:36

district said. You know,

14:38

the silver lining here, though, is for

14:40

her to make that decision. She could

14:42

decide she needs to hold an evidentiary

14:45

hearing and put on a mini trial,

14:47

in essence, before she made that determination.

14:49

It would be cumbersome. It would

14:51

be subject to additional layers of appeal,

14:53

most likely. Great wit as you

14:55

mentioned engender a lot of delay. But

14:58

there is this slightly rosy prospect of

15:00

actually having a hearing, even though there

15:02

wouldn't be a jury verdict, a hearing

15:04

where the government's evidence would become public.

15:07

Mark, I also wanted to ask you about

15:10

something that Katanju Brown Jackson said towards the

15:12

end of the hearing today, putting aside that

15:14

she was asking Dreeben, why can't we just

15:16

answer the question as presented that we talked

15:18

about at the beginning of this block? She

15:21

also said that Article 2, which

15:23

is what the lawyer for Donald Trump

15:25

cited to at the beginning of his

15:28

oral argument to say is what basically

15:30

imbues their argument or gives Trump the

15:32

ability to make the argument that he

15:34

has presidential immunity. Justice Katanju

15:36

Brown Jackson says, does an Article 2

15:38

allow for the type of analysis that

15:40

you're asking for in this instance? Meaning,

15:42

can't you just look at Article 2

15:44

and say, these are the acts that

15:46

a president can do, veto power, pardon

15:49

power, foreign designation power, foreign

15:52

recognition power. Can't you just look at Article 2 and

15:54

these are the carve outs that are giving a president

15:56

immunity so you don't have to worry about the rest

15:58

of it? Yeah,

16:00

I absolutely agree. I think Justice

16:02

Jackson had a very clear and

16:04

smart approach to the case that

16:06

did not get a lot of

16:09

purchase with the conservative justices, because

16:11

the conservatives, especially Brett Kavanaugh, were

16:13

pitching this idea that there are

16:15

these other Article 2 powers that

16:17

aren't specifically mentioned, that are somewhere

16:19

in the penumbras of the Constitution,

16:22

that a president gets to wield

16:24

without any kind of oversight or

16:26

accountability, and that this case is

16:28

really about sussing those powers out

16:30

and shielding them from prosecution. And,

16:33

you know, Katie, I think it's

16:35

really ironic. In overturning Roe v.

16:37

Wade, the Supreme Court began by

16:39

saying the word abortion doesn't appear

16:41

in the Constitution. Well, the term

16:43

presidential immunity certainly doesn't appear in

16:45

the Constitution. And yet the conservative

16:47

justices, much to, I think, Katonji

16:50

Brown Jackson's dismay, kept pressing this

16:52

notion that it exists somewhere, and

16:54

that it should at a minimum

16:56

prevent the jury from considering some

16:58

of Trump's actions leading up to January

17:00

6th, that were somehow related

17:02

to these mysterious Article 2 powers that

17:04

aren't laid out specifically in the Constitution,

17:07

like removing members of the Department of

17:09

Justice who wouldn't launch bogus claims of

17:11

voter fraud. But I just have to

17:14

say, I think that that kind of

17:16

solution, this distinction between private and public

17:18

acts walling off these official or public

17:20

acts from scrutiny, I think that would

17:23

really cut the heart out of Jack

17:25

Smith's case in part. Because what Jack

17:27

Smith is arguing is that Donald Trump

17:30

weaponized the powers of his

17:32

office, that he wielded the

17:34

tools of the chief executive

17:37

in order to further this

17:39

corrupt and criminal conspiracy. It's

17:41

not just that as a private citizen

17:44

and a candidate, he broke the law,

17:46

but that he took advantage of his

17:48

position as president and used those tools

17:50

that were at his disposal alone in

17:52

order to try to keep a hold

17:55

on power that he did not deserve.

17:57

That's a powerful argument. It seemed to

17:59

me that... that the Supreme Court's conservatives want

18:01

to cut it off at the knees. That would

18:03

be greatly unfortunate. It would be harder to make

18:05

that case to the jury. And I think it

18:07

would have much less of an impact for the

18:09

public. You know, Peter, Mark's answer

18:11

is the perfect segue for me to ask you

18:13

this. I want you to take a listen to

18:16

the exchange right now that happened this morning. The

18:20

stable democratic society needs

18:23

the good faith of its public

18:25

officials, correct? Absolutely. And

18:27

that good faith assumes that

18:30

they will follow the law. Correct. And

18:32

encourage him to believe words

18:35

that have been somewhat put

18:37

into suspicion here, that

18:39

no man is above the law either

18:41

in his official or private acts. I

18:44

think that is an assumption of the Constitution.

18:48

I mean, Peter, you know, listening to that in

18:50

person, hearing it again right now, my hat up

18:52

to Justice Sonia Sotomayor for kind of getting to

18:54

the heart of this matter, right? No man is

18:57

above the law. You've had so many presidents, 234

18:59

years that you've had in

19:03

that Oval Office operating under the assumption

19:05

that you're supposed to be doing this

19:07

in good faith. Where did that

19:09

get lost? Yeah,

19:11

I think what today's hearing really

19:14

shines a stark relief on, a

19:16

sharp light on, is

19:19

the structural issue about accountability in

19:21

our system, right? How did

19:24

Donald Trump argue his way out

19:26

of the second impeachment about

19:28

the January 6th? His lawyer said, it's inappropriate

19:30

to impeach him for this. He can be

19:33

tried criminally later if there are in

19:35

fact, criminal violations. Now, a separate set

19:37

of lawyers also working with Trump is

19:39

arguing, no, he can't be charged

19:42

criminally. He cannot be held accountable through

19:44

the normal criminal justice system. And we've

19:46

seen that impeachment basically with a president

19:48

is almost never going to be a

19:51

tool for removing a president from office

19:53

as long as that president's party has

19:55

at least 34 votes in

19:57

the United States Senate, which by the way, it is almost

19:59

all. always had throughout our history. There's

20:01

almost never been a time when the

20:04

Senate was at two-thirds belong

20:07

to the opposition party. That

20:09

means that a president, as we've learned, doesn't

20:11

have to worry about being thrown out of

20:13

office through the impeachment process as long as

20:15

she has her own party. And also, won't

20:17

have to worry apparently about criminal prosecution. So

20:20

where is accountability? How do checks and balances

20:22

work in the system? And the framers basically

20:24

weren't very clear about that because that's what

20:26

we're arguing about. Here we are 238 years

20:28

later, as you put it. Everyone

20:33

is sticking around. When we come back, we're

20:35

going to go from D.C. to New York,

20:37

where Trump's lawyers briefly got their first crack

20:40

at witness David Pecker. We're breaking down

20:42

his third day on the witness stand.

20:44

And later, Trump loves to blame

20:46

his criminal trial for keeping him off the

20:48

campaign trail. So how'd he spend his day

20:51

away from court? Golfing.

20:54

11th hour, just getting underway on the Thursday

20:56

night. Rev

21:01

up your thrills this summer at

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McMuffin. And

22:01

now to Donald Trump's criminal trial that's

22:03

going on right now in New York

22:06

City today former National Enquirer publisher David

22:08

Pecker back on the witness stand as

22:10

Trump's attorneys began their cross-examination of this

22:12

key prosecution witness. Here's my colleague Von

22:15

Hilliard On

22:17

his third day on the stand former

22:20

National Enquirer publisher David Pecker told the

22:22

jury he refused to catch and kill

22:24

Stormy Daniels story about her relationship with

22:27

then candidate Donald Trump Pecker

22:29

said he told his right-hand man at

22:31

the Enquirer not to pay Daniels $120,000

22:35

she was seeking because they'd already shelled out

22:37

tens of thousands of dollars to keep other

22:39

stories about mr Trump quiet if

22:42

anyone should buy it Pecker said it

22:44

should beat Donald Trump and Michael Cohen

22:46

Trump's former fixer Pecker says when he

22:48

told Cohen quote he was upset

22:50

and responded that the boss referring to

22:52

Trump would be furious with me Pecker

22:55

said today he believed mr Trump or

22:58

his company had paid Daniels until Cohen

23:00

told him in December of 2016 that

23:02

he was the one who paid her

23:05

Prosecutors are seeking to prove mr.

23:07

Trump doctored internal business records to

23:09

cover up that payment Pecker

23:11

also testified Trump was aghast when he

23:13

saw Stormy Daniels on 60 Minutes Was

23:15

it hush money to stay silent? Yes,

23:18

Pecker says Trump called him He said

23:20

we have an agreement with Stormy Daniels

23:22

that she cannot mention my name Trump

23:25

later denied knowledge of the arrangement on

23:28

cross examination mr Trump's lawyers

23:30

challenging pecker's credibility and business practices at

23:32

a campaign event earlier in the day

23:34

mr Trump addressed the testimony

23:36

of his longtime friend David's been very nice

23:39

nice guy. Did you know about the payments

23:41

of Stormy Daniels before the 2020 election? Pecker

23:44

also testifying today about a payment his

23:47

company did make to former Playboy model

23:49

Karen McDougal to keep her alleged affair

23:51

with mr Trump quiet pecker

23:53

said he coordinated with Cohen because

23:55

he was concerned paying McDougal could

23:58

violate campaign finance law So

24:00

they worked up an agreement to pay

24:02

for her contributions to magazines owned by

24:04

American media, adding he believed Trump

24:07

was aware of the payment. The

24:09

prosecution asking Pekker was your principal purpose

24:11

to suppress her story so as not

24:14

to influence the election. Pekker

24:16

responding, yes, it was. And

24:19

we've got Peter Baker, Mark Joseph Stern,

24:21

Josh Gerstein and Joyce Vance still with

24:23

us. Joyce, I wanted to start with

24:26

you. Look, let's talk about the fact

24:28

that the day began before David Pekker

24:30

got back on the witness stand with

24:32

the Manhattan Days office saying that there

24:34

are four alleged violations, brand new ones

24:36

of that expanded gag order. The judge,

24:38

Marchean, setting a hearing on it for

24:41

next Thursday. I mean, Joyce, we don't

24:43

have a ruling from the first motion

24:46

for contempt. So what's the

24:48

delay from Marchean because we

24:50

now have four new violations?

24:53

We do. We have ongoing violations.

24:56

And the issue that the judge faces

24:58

is either this gag order has teeth

25:00

and he will enforce it or

25:03

it does not have teeth, in which case Donald

25:05

Trump can do anything he wants to do with

25:07

regard to this jury or

25:09

witnesses or the court families, for

25:12

that matter. So this has

25:14

to come to a head. The

25:16

delay likely gives the judge a

25:18

little bit of extra room to

25:20

gather additional evidence. But the statute

25:22

gives him very limited options. He can

25:24

either impose a penalty of $1,000 for

25:27

each violation or he can

25:29

impose up to 30 days of custody.

25:32

There's no room to maneuver between

25:34

those two options. He will

25:36

have to make a decision. He has

25:38

apparently made a decision that it's best to

25:40

put it off to hold some of his

25:42

power over Donald Trump's head for a little

25:45

bit longer to see if he can get

25:47

him to conform his behavior or alternatively

25:49

to prove that the only option is for

25:52

the judge to begin to impose sanctions.

25:55

You know, Peter, One thing that stuck out to

25:57

me today was the testimony from David Pecker. Am

26:01

I paid the one hundred and fifty

26:03

thousand dollars to care Mcdougall. And then

26:05

he never got reimbursed, Never got paid

26:07

back by Donald Trump even though it

26:09

was for his benefit for the benefit

26:11

of the campaign. But an iffy and

26:13

data sector has to say I have

26:15

no hard feelings for Mister Trump. I

26:17

thought he was my mentor I sat

26:19

with Peter. Steven Pinker is hop the

26:21

lace. Maga World because it's

26:23

links he keeps on group seeing

26:25

any could completely do is called

26:27

followers right? But then they sit

26:29

there and they still pay homage

26:31

to him. Talk about whether or

26:33

not you think that this trial,

26:35

even so far, has been moving

26:37

the needle in any way in

26:39

terms of public sentiment when it

26:41

comes to Donald Trump. Yeah

26:44

it over my new story I was told once

26:47

buy a New Yorker whose parents worked for

26:49

Donald Trump is contractors. We all know the don't

26:51

have wasn't always very good about paying the contract.

26:53

As I said to the spurs will disease repay

26:55

your parents is no he didn't meet my parents.

26:58

This guy said I had to sue him because

27:00

their money. I said okay ah did they get

27:02

a well I got fifty cents on the

27:04

dollar back and then the guy said but you

27:06

know what they voted for Trump has a why

27:09

would they vote for Trump is they believe

27:11

he cheated them on their money He said because

27:13

well if he chooses. To see everybody else

27:15

out on our behalf of America? Seat

27:17

the restaurant on bad nurses are there

27:19

is a sort of it's you know

27:21

I'm. View of him as

27:23

somebody who was able to you know

27:26

manipulate the system, work the system, bypass

27:28

a system. Whatever it is that seems

27:30

on you know respect on the part

27:32

of people who who admire him and

27:35

it's it's kind of curious to to

27:37

in a lot of ways is wouldn't

27:39

be something you would expect and yet

27:41

somehow he has managed despite all the

27:44

examples where he has in fact tried

27:46

to run around a system and and

27:48

and and and and seat various ways

27:50

that hasn't actually hurts the base. Concourse

27:53

Forty has or I don't think that his

27:55

base is good. Be all at troubled by

27:57

what they're hearing, they they know most of

27:59

these facts, movies that have been reports the

28:01

for the Alavi believe in people like him

28:03

assume the rob more or less true and

28:05

the only question the as okay are they

28:07

illegals? does it match the the crimes as

28:10

outlined by Album Brags. Does a guilty verdict

28:12

change anybody's mind? But the facts of the

28:14

case as it would be presented by the

28:16

prosecution may or may not be enough to

28:18

change public views Because I think a lot

28:20

of people assume ah that Donald Trump has

28:22

done allow these things. and they either the

28:24

the Carillon think it's outrageous, where they don't

28:26

care, they think guess that he's being, are

28:28

you know Ross Perot Scarier. And

28:31

you know just hurt to Peters point

28:33

does the evidence fit the crime in

28:35

the burden of proof that always gonna

28:37

be in the prosecution and a criminal

28:39

case to use Any concerns just like

28:41

some others has expressed step you know

28:43

the misdemeanor crime exists the falsification of

28:45

the business records, but the elevated said

28:47

the first degree felony that it is

28:49

a class A felony that it is.

28:51

Are you hearing enough? Because I'm hearing

28:53

the common Denominator up kind of messaging

28:55

from David Pepper which is everything that

28:57

was done. The catch, intel et cetera

28:59

was done to benefit. The Campaign

29:01

and know. Donald. Trump personally. right?

29:05

I think that might have something

29:07

to do katie with why we're

29:10

hearing these mothers comments about our

29:12

parker from the former presidents homage

29:14

and somehow get jurors to have

29:16

a feeling that's these payments took

29:18

place because of personal war between

29:21

Packer and From for the fact

29:23

that they have been friends for

29:25

a long time status start to

29:27

undercut the case someone so seats

29:29

as the cross examination continues years,

29:32

whether Trump's defense tries to be

29:34

bring out. More of

29:36

that possible motivation here though that they've been

29:38

friends for a long time and that may

29:40

be a a my impact or might have

29:43

done this sort of things to help our

29:45

Trump he may be wasn't running for president

29:47

because it sounds like based on the practices

29:49

of a My and Packer or that this

29:52

is the kind of thing that they did

29:54

for various celebrities at different times. And

29:57

you know, Mark and David Hacker are

29:59

the announcing. That he's they are pursuing

30:01

to a subpoena to testify so is

30:03

not their voluntarily wants to with this

30:05

your today those something That was surprising

30:08

right? We heard that David Packers flash

30:10

am I getting a non prosecution agreements

30:12

with the Manhattan Da's office and the

30:14

New York County Da's office. So smart.

30:16

Talk about a little bit about what

30:19

you think the impact might have been

30:21

on the jury hearing. That. Am

30:23

I got one of these kind of

30:25

pass get out of for his stead

30:27

of jail free card kind of thing

30:29

because he's giving the testimony and the

30:31

cooperation against the Sc and why of

30:34

years ago. Bureau.

30:36

So we know that Pepper, how's this

30:38

known prosecution agree with state authorities. We

30:40

also know that the Us D C

30:43

had more and Parker and am I

30:45

that's or this kind of touch Intel

30:47

practice done to benefit a political campaign

30:50

could constitute a contribution in violation of

30:52

law or Parker has clearly been this

30:54

skirting the limits of was permitted under

30:57

both state and federal laws. No surprise

30:59

that he's import under a subpoena. Saw

31:01

a little bit of a surprise that

31:04

he has this history and sea that

31:06

we hadn't learned about it until today.

31:08

But you know I think this ties

31:11

in with one of the other really

31:13

interesting exchanges that occurred in Manhattan Today's

31:15

were at The prosecutors kept talking about

31:18

a conspiracy that's attacker was part of

31:20

this conspiracy that ultimately and bolts Cohen

31:22

and Trump paying off snore materials thought

31:25

the defense attorneys objected and said you

31:27

are you have to stop using this

31:29

word citizen that conspiracies and prosecutor said

31:31

will look at the election statutes that

31:34

we're siding and claiming Trump. Attempted

31:36

to violates they use to freeze conspiracy

31:38

suits Perfectly legitimate. Last two users and

31:41

George Merciful agreed and I think rightly

31:43

so. And so I think what this

31:45

testimonies doing is setting up for the

31:48

jury that the sense of how this

31:50

worked in this rather sorted world so

31:52

that when it comes time to drill

31:55

down on the Stormy Daniels payments, they

31:57

have a good idea of all of

31:59

the moving pieces here. And what isn't

32:02

that prosecutors are laying out the step

32:04

by step of the Stormy Daniels payments,

32:06

They will see that through the lens

32:09

of a similar conspiracy spit. It's not

32:11

just the kind of Cd tabloid or

32:13

scheme, but rather a criminal effort to

32:16

skirt campaign finance laws and see lots

32:18

and lots to influence and election on

32:20

behalf of the Kansas.is unlawful under New

32:23

York statutes and.is what album Bragg says

32:25

is going to essentially bootstrap what would

32:27

be misdemeanor charges into the felony offense

32:30

species. Charging Mister Trump with. And

32:32

with accessory liability law in New

32:35

York boat and all have dirty

32:37

hands and doesn't make a difference

32:39

because they all under a principal

32:41

theory have criminal exposure. Peter backed

32:43

off at Josh. Enjoy! Thank you

32:46

guys for joining the The Seizing.

32:48

I really appreciate it. And

32:52

and when we come back shop senses

32:54

day off from core set on the

32:56

golf course fall by and suit says

32:59

shot with Nikki Haley. Voters will work

33:01

or political panel joins us when the

33:03

eleventh hour can see. Her.

33:14

Weeks Donald Trump's have complained that isn't

33:16

many legal obligations are keeping him off

33:18

the campaign trail. Take a listen to

33:21

what he said just last week. Of

33:25

us. Supreme

33:29

Court. Records.

33:36

For. Such.

33:42

A severe Roosevelt. I

33:44

got fat second real time. I'll miss all that

33:47

he just said was not true. So. You

33:49

would think so. when he finally

33:51

had a day off, he would he

33:53

use it diligently and campaign said no

33:55

not Donald Trump. Steer more pressing things

33:58

to do. Sources telling Cnn. that

34:00

he went golfing. But

34:02

the Biden campaign on the other

34:04

hand wasting no time trolling the

34:06

former president, emailing supporters about Trump's

34:08

campaign events on Wednesday, noting that

34:11

he had none. For

34:13

more on this, I want to bring

34:15

in Donna Edwards, former Democratic Congresswoman of

34:17

Maryland and Brendan Buck, former chief communications

34:19

advisor for Republican speakers Paul Ryan and

34:21

John Boehner. My thanks to the both

34:23

of you for being here tonight. Brendan,

34:25

I want to start with you. Donald

34:27

Trump playing golf and doing campaign stops

34:29

out of O'Dega in New York. Is

34:31

there the possibility, Brendan, that there's a

34:33

very real impact because of this trial

34:35

on the flow of his campaign? Oh,

34:40

absolutely. Look, running for president

34:42

is a hard thing and it is exhausting. So

34:44

I don't blame him that he's not out there

34:47

every single moment doing it. But

34:49

I think that's why what happened in the Supreme

34:51

Court today could have an incredible impact on the

34:53

rest of this, on this election. It

34:56

could actually sway the election. The current

34:58

case, you know, it will last a few weeks. And

35:00

if that's all he has to do, then he might

35:02

be able to survive that. But if he is stuck

35:04

in a courthouse for months on end

35:06

throughout this campaign, and that is the context

35:08

in which we are seeing Donald Trump, and

35:10

that is how people are associating him with

35:12

it, forget the fact that he's not campaigning.

35:14

If that's the story of Donald Trump's election,

35:16

he could be in huge trouble. So,

35:19

you know, what's happening in New York right now

35:21

is damaging. What could happen in the rest of

35:23

the year could be could be really big. Don,

35:26

I have to ask you about my home state of Florida.

35:29

Biden has opened President Biden opened

35:31

his first field office there. Everybody

35:33

kind of writes off Florida. I

35:36

get it. We're not purple anymore.

35:38

We're decidedly more red than purple.

35:40

But by himself saying that Florida

35:42

is at play, especially considering that

35:44

constitutional amendment that's on the ballot

35:47

in November when it comes to abortion

35:49

access your thought about whether or not

35:51

this is just a kind of, you

35:53

know, hopes and dreams thing going on

35:55

in Florida. There's some very real possibility

35:57

that he could make some

35:59

headway. there? Well,

36:02

I think one of the things that

36:04

you get, especially when you raise the

36:07

money that President Biden has and he's

36:09

opening field offices really across the country,

36:11

that it gives him a lot of

36:14

flexibility to expand that map. And certainly

36:16

Florida should be part of that quotient.

36:18

And really, that constitutional

36:20

amendment on the ballot, we know that

36:22

these issues really drive voters to the

36:25

polls and the voters that they drive

36:27

to the polls are exactly

36:29

the ones that the Biden campaign

36:31

needs, particularly among women

36:33

expanding that gender

36:36

gap that he enjoys. So

36:39

I think it's a really smart move on the

36:41

part of the president and his team. And,

36:44

you know, let's just stretch that map

36:46

across the country. Brandon,

36:48

we've heard also that President Biden

36:50

making a play for Nikki Haley

36:52

voters, for example, going to court

36:54

them in the state of Pennsylvania.

36:57

But, Brandon, that's 155,000 votes by

36:59

my count. I mean, what

37:01

is the possibility for Biden to be

37:03

able to pick up a Nikki

37:05

Haley voter in the general? Quite

37:10

significant. And look, this is going to be

37:12

an incredibly close election. And so any voters

37:15

you can pick up could potentially change

37:17

the outcome. And we

37:19

know for having certain Donald Trump

37:21

is not going to try to

37:23

win back Nikki Haley voters. He

37:25

is constitutionally incapable of bringing himself

37:27

to appeal to moderates. And

37:29

he is perfectly fine

37:31

upsetting Nikki Haley voters. So

37:34

that prevents an incredible opportunity for the Biden folks if

37:36

they are able to do it. Now, it's not about

37:38

Nikki Haley. Their ad seems to be defending Nikki Haley.

37:40

I don't think those voters really care about Nikki Haley.

37:43

He needs to provide a safe place for someone to

37:45

go. And there's a sense

37:47

that there are a lot of Republicans who

37:49

are willing to do this, the Christies of the world. If

37:52

they can create that narrative and you can pick off 100,000 folks

37:55

in a state, that could absolutely be enough to turn

37:57

the outcome. And I want to take us

37:59

back to you, into that trial that's

38:01

going on. We don't have

38:03

cameras in the courtroom. We actually

38:05

don't even have audio that gets

38:07

kind of broadcast publicly. Because

38:10

there's no cameras, a lot of people don't

38:12

get to see Donald Trump looking old, sometimes

38:15

looking like he's sleeping in court, looking tired

38:17

and disinterested in judicial proceedings that actually have

38:19

his liberty at stake. Do you think that

38:21

a nurse to Donald Trump's benefit that we

38:23

do not be able to have the American

38:26

public looking in and seeing what he's like

38:28

inside that courtroom? Well,

38:31

I have to tell you, I mean, in some ways, I

38:33

want to see what's going on in the courtroom.

38:35

I also know that a camera in that

38:38

courtroom would be exactly what Donald Trump

38:40

would want and need so that he

38:42

could play to it. So

38:44

I'm not really sure that we're

38:46

disadvantaged or that the

38:48

trial is disadvantaged in terms of not

38:50

having cameras there. But I will say,

38:53

I mean, I do think that the

38:55

reporting that's coming out of the courtroom,

38:57

the snippets that the American public is

38:59

getting, that there is a way that

39:01

people are beginning to experience what's happening

39:04

there. And look, you can just see

39:06

from his demeanor when he comes out

39:08

of the courtroom, that it's really taking

39:10

its toll on him. And I think

39:12

the American people are going to process

39:14

that. I'm going to tell

39:17

you guys right now that the pictures you just

39:19

saw of him, that's not what

39:21

he looks like when he's in court. Donna

39:23

Edwards and Brendan Buck, thank you so much

39:25

for being here. I appreciate it. And

39:29

when we come back, campus

39:31

protests over the Israel-Hamas war

39:33

intensify across the country. And

39:36

now they're impacting graduation ceremonies. We get

39:38

into it when the 11th hour continues.

39:45

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at cedarpoint.com. Time

40:15

for a quick break to talk about McDonald's.

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Price and participation may vary, cannot be

40:35

combined with any other offer or combo

40:37

meal. Single item at regular price. One

40:46

of the biggest universities in the country

40:48

has cancelled its main graduation ceremony scheduled

40:50

for next month because officials say new

40:53

security measures make it impossible to hold

40:55

the event. It's the

40:57

latest consequence of the protest movement

40:59

taking over college campuses as students

41:01

protest Israel's offensive in Gaza. Here's

41:04

my colleague Liz Croix. In

41:07

an unprecedented move, the University of

41:09

Southern California tonight canceling this year's

41:11

main commencement ceremony attended by roughly

41:13

65,000 people citing new safety measures

41:17

put in place amid protests on campus.

41:20

This stunning decision coming a day after nearly

41:22

100 protesters were arrested for

41:24

trespassing after a contentious rally where

41:27

pro-Palestinian demonstrators clashed with police. Even

41:29

if they have to cancel every

41:31

single commencement, that's up to them.

41:34

The school's administration had already

41:36

cancelled the graduation speech for

41:38

their pro-Palestinian valedictorian, Asna Tabassan,

41:40

citing safety concerns. Coast

41:43

to coast growing protests on

41:45

more college campuses over the

41:47

Israel-Hamas War from George Washington

41:49

University to Northeastern to Emory

41:51

and Atlanta, where police and

41:53

riot gear today clashed with

41:56

demonstrators. Law enforcement appearing to be a

41:58

major threat to the state of Israel. to use

42:00

zip ties to restrain the protesters,

42:02

even tasing one person. At

42:04

Columbia, the epicenter of the protests, those camping

42:07

out, given a deadline to disperse by 4

42:09

a.m. If not, the

42:11

university says we will have to consider

42:13

alternative options for clearing the area. And

42:15

these protests are now spreading here in

42:17

California as well. Here at UCLA, students

42:19

have begun gathering, pitching tents in the

42:21

heart of campus. Many of these students

42:23

calling on the university to divest from

42:25

Israel. Tonight, these rising

42:28

tensions igniting a debate about free

42:30

speech versus hate speech on college campuses.

42:33

At USC, Professor Brittany Friedman, criticizing

42:35

the university for escalating what she

42:38

says have been peaceful protests. You

42:40

believe these students' First Amendment rights

42:42

are being violated? Absolutely. Absolutely.

42:45

They are criticizing a nation-state

42:48

for their actions in war, not

42:50

criticizing a faith. A

42:52

faith that is very close to me. But

42:54

some Jewish students say they feel the demonstrations

42:56

have crossed the line. I don't believe

42:59

that advocating for the rights of

43:01

the Palestinian people are inherently anti-Semitic.

43:03

But some of these chants and

43:06

some of the ways in which

43:08

that they attribute

43:10

and target Jewish students,

43:12

that is anti-Semitic. When

43:16

we come back, a heartfelt goodbye and

43:18

a call to action from Chef Jose

43:20

Andes. His emotional tribute

43:22

for the World Central Kitchen workers

43:24

killed in Gaza when the 11th

43:27

hour continues. The

43:36

last thing before we go tonight, remembering

43:39

the best of humanity. Today,

43:41

the seven World Central Kitchen aid workers

43:43

who were killed by an Israeli strike

43:45

as they delivered food in Gaza were

43:47

laid to rest. Chef

43:49

Jose Andes, who founded the charity 15 years

43:52

ago, delivered an emotional eulogy in

43:54

their honor and shared his hope

43:56

for peace. Watch this. They

44:00

risked everything to feed people

44:03

they did not know and

44:07

would never meet.

44:12

In the worst moments, the

44:14

best of humanity shows up. We

44:16

take risks because we want to change

44:18

the world with something we

44:20

all believe deep down

44:23

inside our hearts. All

44:27

nationalities, all

44:29

religions, all people.

44:33

Food is a universal human

44:36

right. Feeding

44:38

each other, cooking and

44:40

eating together is what

44:42

makes us human. The

44:45

dishes we cook and deliver are

44:48

not just ingredients or calories. A

44:51

plate of food is a plate of hope, a

44:53

message that someone somewhere cares

44:57

for you. Our

44:59

hearts are with the families of the victims,

45:02

a message of hope and resilience to take

45:04

us off the air tonight. And

45:06

remember, you can catch the Katie Fang

45:08

Show Saturdays at 12 Eastern right here

45:10

on MSNBC. From all of

45:12

our colleagues across the networks of NBC News,

45:14

thanks for staying up late. See

45:17

you this week. Time

45:27

for a quick break to talk about McDonald's.

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your favorite breakfast items, including a sausage

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any other offer or combo meal. Call

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item at regular price.