0:00

It's okay to use your phone at a football

0:02

game, but

0:04

you should never use your phone behind

0:06

the wheel. Fines

0:10

now start at $150. So phones down. It's the law.

0:17

Tonight, the new jobs report smashing

0:19

expectations. President Biden touting

0:22

his administration's wins. Meanwhile,

0:24

it is day five of the former president's

0:27

fraud trial. The developments from court

0:29

today and a chaotic week on

0:31

Capitol Hill ending with no speaker

0:33

of the house. The reality check from

0:35

senators as house Republicans scramble

0:38

to find leadership. Then cutting

0:40

through the noise and important conversation

0:44

about transgender youth athletes with

0:46

a panel

0:46

of experts. You are not going

0:48

to want to miss this as the 11th hour

0:51

gets underway on this Friday night. Good

0:53

evening. Once again, I'm Stephanie

0:57

Ruhle. We

0:58

usually do the night cap on a Friday, but we have got so much big news

1:00

that we have got to break down. And

1:02

later we have a very special conversation that you

1:05

do not want to miss. But

1:07

let's start with the big news because

1:10

we got big and very good economic numbers

1:12

this morning. The Labor Department said the U.S. economy

1:14

added 336,000 jobs in the month of September. President

1:19

Biden highlighted the better than expected number in

1:21

a speech earlier this morning. We

1:24

have the highest share of working age Americans in the workforce

1:26

in 20 years.

1:29

It's no accident. It's by dynamics. We're

1:32

growing the economy from the middle

1:34

out, the bottom up, not the top down.

1:40

The good jobs numbers come as the White House is making

1:42

a whole lot of positive The

1:45

good jobs numbers come as the White House is

1:47

making a whole lot of positive headlines

1:49

that impact everyday Americans

1:52

as well as our allies overseas. They

1:54

include $9 billion for student debt

1:56

relief, progress on drug price negotiations

1:59

with big pharmaceutical companies.

1:59

companies and diplomatic

2:02

efforts to reassure our allies

2:04

that the U.S. is still standing

2:06

behind Ukraine despite the chaos

2:08

among House Republicans. Meanwhile,

2:11

on the other side of the aisle, the former president

2:13

and current Republican front-runner Donald Trump

2:16

is still dealing with a whole lot of legal

2:18

problems. It was a five of Trump's

2:20

business fraud trial here in New York where

2:23

a former Trump executive said Alan

2:25

Weisselberger, Trump's longtime CFO,

2:28

asked for help in committing tax

2:30

fraud. And we found out financial statements

2:33

contradicted golf course valuations.

2:36

And Trump is falling back on his most

2:38

reliable and successful strategy,

2:40

delay, delay, delay. Well,

2:43

today a judge refused to stay

2:45

the New York civil fraud trial, but

2:47

did temporarily halt a judge's order

2:49

to cancel business certificates in

2:52

Trump's companies. I told you we had a lot

2:54

to get to. Let's get smarter with the help

2:56

of our lead off panel. And I'm going to

2:58

need them to talk because I'm clearly losing

3:00

my voice. My friend, John Allen, senior

3:02

national politics reporter for NBC News,

3:05

Glenn Thrush, justice department reporter for

3:07

the New York Times, and Harry Lippmann, former

3:09

U.S. attorney and former deputy assistant

3:11

attorney general. Mr. Allen,

3:13

let's start with you. Can we talk about

3:15

the split screen? Joe Biden had

3:18

a really big week of achievements. Well,

3:20

Donald Trump sat in court day

3:23

after day, spouting lies on the courthouse steps

3:25

and his party on the Hill is an absolute

3:28

chaos. Yeah,

3:29

between the two things between Donald Trump in

3:32

court and what happened in the house, the

3:34

mess that was on the floor that continues behind

3:36

closed doors right now, there was a very

3:38

good week for Joe Biden in terms of news,

3:40

in terms of substantive news, in terms of political

3:43

positioning. I know there are a lot of people on the left

3:45

that are upset with him using this money to build

3:47

more of Donald Trump's wall, but that definitely will

3:50

blow the issue for him heading into the next

3:52

election here. And

3:54

you had Hunter Biden with his court case

3:56

that got completely knocked out of the headlines.

3:59

Nobody. paid attention to as you

4:01

had this chaos unfolding on

4:04

the House floor. So a very good week for

4:06

Joe Biden and a pretty bad

4:08

week for Donald Trump in terms of the broader general

4:10

election. As we know, though, he

4:12

continues to defy

4:15

gravity politically within the Republican Party

4:17

and seems to be cruising toward their nomination.

4:21

John, let's talk about this one thing that does

4:23

hang over us and President

4:25

Biden. Inflation. It is still

4:27

a problem for everyday Americans, and

4:30

it's very complicated for the White House because

4:32

on the one hand, it is great that

4:35

we got that really good jobs report today.

4:37

But we have to remember that the Federal

4:39

Reserve has been trying to slow the economy

4:42

to get inflation down. And as long

4:44

as businesses continue to grow and continue

4:46

to hire, life is not going to get cheaper

4:48

in this country. How does the White House

4:51

manage that? Because they don't control it.

4:54

It's very, very difficult, Stephanie, as you point

4:56

out, there are tension points between these things, between

4:58

inflation and interest rate with

5:00

the job market. And I think the

5:02

difficult thing for any White House in a situation

5:04

like this is you want people to be optimistic. You

5:07

want to inject that optimism into markets.

5:09

You want to do inject optimism

5:11

for consumers to try to help the economy get better. And

5:13

at the same time, you don't want to get caught telling

5:15

people to not believe their lying

5:17

wallets. So this has been a struggle for the for

5:20

the Biden administration. Obviously, the

5:22

economy has been a mixed picture. I think one of the things

5:25

that gets lost a little bit in this when we talk about

5:27

inflation is that you get the periodic

5:29

reports of what inflation is doing. And if it falls

5:32

a little bit, you know, quarter over quarter or year

5:34

over year, you know, there's sort of a celebration

5:37

in Washington. But what people feel

5:39

is the aggregate of all of those

5:42

those quarters of inflation. And so

5:44

when they go out to a restaurant or they take their kids

5:47

out to out to shopping or whatever,

5:50

they feel appropriately

5:53

that everything is so much more expensive than it was

5:55

just a few years ago. And I think it's

5:57

an incredibly difficult political situation

5:59

for this. White House and any White House that's dealing

6:02

with a mixed economy.

6:04

It's a huge positive that inflation

6:06

isn't going up anymore, but life ain't

6:08

cheap and people feel it. Glenn,

6:10

let's talk about this because the president is

6:12

out there working on policy, talking

6:15

about the White House's achievements, and there's a lot.

6:18

But what he's not doing is hitting Trump on

6:20

the 91 charges against him.

6:23

You think that's going to change? You think his political strategy

6:25

will change as we get closer? I mean, how hard

6:28

is this knocking Trump right now?

6:33

It has to, right? I mean, positive

6:36

isn't selling anywhere in

6:39

American politics right now. You know, I'm

6:42

in the media market on some Virginia

6:45

House races, Virginia House and Senate races,

6:48

and you can there is

6:50

not a single positive in the entire

6:52

lot. I mean, when you look at the

6:54

polling, even

6:57

some of the polling that favors Biden, you

6:59

see just this incredible level

7:01

of pessimism that people have. And

7:03

I think John is exactly

7:06

right. You go into grocery stores

7:08

and you see items that were two years

7:11

ago, four bucks or now eight dollars. So

7:13

people are, while you're seeing

7:16

inflation decrease in a bunch of sectors, I

7:18

think people in a very tangible way

7:20

are seeing this as a problem. I remember

7:22

when I covered the Obama White House, they

7:25

had a similar issue right around the

7:27

end of the financial crisis where they were

7:30

seeing a lot of remember the whole green shoots

7:32

argument where they were seeing a lot

7:34

of improvement in the economy metrically,

7:37

but people weren't feeling that way. And

7:40

public sentiment optimism

7:42

is an extremely lagging indicator. And

7:45

also, Biden is not an especially dynamic

7:49

messenger on this issue, right? I mean, he just

7:51

isn't, whereas Trump is an

7:53

extraordinarily dynamic messenger

7:55

on his issue. So I think you have

7:58

kind of a perfect storm. of

8:01

difficult issues that the White House is having to

8:03

face, even on a week where

8:07

there is absolutely, manifestly

8:09

no doubt about which direction

8:12

the news cycle is moving. But

8:14

I think you're looking at sort of a structural issue

8:17

politically that the White House is gonna have to struggle

8:19

with no matter how many indictments

8:21

Trump deals with, no matter

8:24

how many great employment

8:26

reports we have, this is

8:28

gonna be a challenge for Biden

8:31

all the way through.

8:32

Donald Trump might be a great messenger,

8:34

but he's pushing lie after

8:37

lie every day. And what Joe Biden

8:39

has right now are a lot of good policies

8:41

that are working for people across this country.

8:44

Harry, let's talk about Donald Trump and

8:46

his fraud trial. What

8:48

does this stay on his business

8:51

certificates mean? It sounds like he's getting hooked

8:53

up here.

8:54

Yeah, but look, the

8:58

prosecutor were ready to do this anyway.

9:00

What it means is that the judge,

9:02

the judge Angaron did two things. He said,

9:05

look, I'm holding against you, summary

9:07

judgment, frauds established. That's number

9:09

one. Also, I'm gonna start yanking

9:11

certificates from these companies that you

9:14

control, giving them to receivers, et

9:16

cetera. What happened today is his

9:18

lawyer went up to the next level court and argued

9:21

successfully, man, after

9:23

you do this, you cannot unscramble

9:25

the eggs. And let's just put

9:27

this part on hold. And the judge

9:30

agreed with Trump to put it on hold.

9:32

Now, the AG of New

9:34

York said, we were gonna do that anyway, so

9:36

don't think it's such a big victory. This

9:39

week was a bruising one for Trump

9:41

in court, culminating with his former

9:43

controller basically having to fess

9:45

up to lies and say he helped

9:47

Allen Weisselberg, who testifies next

9:49

week, commit tax fraud. And I

9:51

would argue, you know, we've been waiting,

9:54

waiting, waiting. I think this fraud

9:54

trial is one of the real things,

9:57

meaning this has been the first week of the

9:59

rest of the day.

9:59

Donald Trump's life. He is now

10:02

in a trial that could really

10:04

damage him. Everything but take

10:06

away is liberty and we know he cares

10:08

about it. So it's now

10:11

actually begun and there's five

10:14

on the, you know, four others on the horizon.

10:16

All in all, a rough week for him, though you're

10:18

right at the end. He doesn't have to face

10:21

immediately these, the unwinding

10:23

of his LLCs.

10:25

Can we stay on this point, Glenn? Again,

10:28

maybe Donald Trump talks a good game

10:30

at the podium, but how on earth

10:33

does he come back from the testimony that

10:35

we heard today that Allen Weisselberg,

10:38

his CFO for decades,

10:41

openly asked for help to commit

10:43

tax fraud?

10:46

He doesn't. I

10:48

mean, I mean, it was an interesting,

10:51

I mean, he doesn't. And again, I think

10:55

that you're looking at a situation

10:57

that is very much prefiguring what we're gonna

10:59

see in some of these federal cases. Another

11:02

development that happened today, a

11:05

little more positively for Trump was Judge

11:07

Cannon down in Florida, put

11:11

a stay essentially on the CIPA

11:13

classified document

11:16

process, which is gonna delay that

11:19

proceeding down there quite a bit while the DC

11:21

proceeding is moving really quickly. But you

11:24

make a good point. I mean, there's a limited

11:26

utility of him

11:28

running up to the cameras. Having

11:31

covered this guy for a while, the

11:33

cameras in the courtroom element of

11:36

the civil trial in New York was

11:39

a game changer for Trump. Trump cares

11:41

about image. And he was sort of

11:44

sitting in the first couple of days, he

11:47

was sitting in that courtroom

11:49

looking like just a regular defendant,

11:53

wedged between his lawyers, having

11:55

to sit there and deal with what

11:57

the judge and prosecution were doing out,

11:59

right? He hated that so he

12:01

felt compelled to counter program

12:04

and really vociferous way that

12:06

I think really shows you the dilemma This

12:09

is a guy who loves to control image He's

12:12

somebody if you recall

12:14

would listen to the would watch the playback

12:17

of his Sunday show appearances with the sound off

12:19

because he cares what he looks like and I

12:22

think That does not portray

12:24

him in a position of strength in a way that we

12:27

haven't seen in the federal Proceedings yet

12:29

because there are no cameras in the courtroom So

12:31

I think what you what you got this week was

12:33

a real insight into what Trump perceives as

12:35

his own weakness He doesn't like

12:37

being seen as being vulnerable

12:40

and as we're moving down this process That's

12:42

going to become increasingly difficult for him

12:44

to counter program

12:46

John what do you think?

12:49

Yeah, I mean I think Glenn is absolutely

12:51

right Donald Trump looks

12:53

weaker sitting in the courtroom where a judge

12:56

is Dictating things and he's not speaking

12:58

than he does in any other venue. I These

13:01

are bad images for him and at

13:03

the same time, you know, he's got a pretty

13:05

locked in base So we'll have to

13:07

see how these things play out how the future trials

13:10

play out We're still a long way away from that general

13:12

election next November for

13:14

the time being We're I guess we'll

13:17

watch the polls and see if there's any change within the Republican

13:19

primary But that does not you know if past

13:21

performance is any indication of future

13:24

performance that won't happen

13:26

Harry let's talk about Trump's motion

13:28

to dismiss the federal election clickcase.

13:31

He is claiming presidential immunity

13:33

He loves to claim that all over the

13:35

place and most times it

13:38

does not apply But could

13:40

this make it to the Supreme Court?

13:43

Yes in a word and then it's

13:45

likely to make it to the Court of Appeals

13:47

before it comes it comes

13:49

back In other words, let's just let's think

13:52

about this in two ways first delay

13:54

because it's for immunity under the

13:56

law It's likely even when

13:58

he loses as I believe if he will, in

14:01

front of Judge Chutkin, he'll be able to

14:03

say, I'm not gonna wait till the end to appeal.

14:05

I wanna appeal it now, because the right I'm

14:07

claiming is not to be in trial in the

14:09

first place. Now it goes to the Court

14:11

of Appeals. He really ought to win there. The

14:14

precedent is strong. There's a couple

14:16

wild cards that have to do with some

14:18

judges, but I think it'll be okay. But

14:21

this motion, most of his legal claims

14:24

have been slap-dash and really

14:26

political. This is designed for

14:29

conservative justices,

14:31

and it's got all the right

14:33

kinds of sites and that sort

14:35

of thing. So I don't think

14:38

it's likely the Supreme Court will

14:40

save him, but it's clearly

14:43

he's taking his best shot. And if

14:45

they simply see a claim that they

14:47

like and wanna think about and

14:50

take on cert, even if

14:52

he loses, that's a year or

14:54

more potentially. So from

14:57

the delay standpoint, he's gonna

14:59

get some delay in the most important

15:01

trial, which is now set for March,

15:04

in terms of an actual Hail

15:06

Mary, getting him out of the jail

15:08

free as it were. I don't see it, but

15:11

it's the best shot that I think

15:13

he has. And the motion's clearly

15:15

designed to appeal to the

15:17

conservative justices on the

15:19

Supreme Court.

15:21

Well, he's certainly gonna take that shot if we know

15:23

Trump. John Allen, Glenn Thrush, Harry

15:26

Littman, thank you all for starting us off tonight.

15:28

Coming up, the warning from senators

15:31

to their colleagues in the House about

15:33

choosing a more conservative speaker. Our

15:35

friend David Jolly is here on the chaos

15:38

in Congress and what could come next. And

15:40

later, trans athletes is a

15:42

hot and very polarizing topic,

15:45

so polarizing that lots of people have

15:47

questions that they're too afraid to ask. Well,

15:49

tonight we're answering them. The

15:51

11th hour just getting underway on

15:53

a Friday night.

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It's okay to use your phone at a football game, but

16:04

you should never use your phone behind the

16:06

wheel.

16:09

Fines now start at $150. So

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16:51

Republican House members have a lot

16:53

to think about this weekend. Next week, they'll start

16:56

the process of trying to select

16:58

a new speaker after Booten Kevin McCarthy.

17:01

Well, Donald Trump has weighed in and officially

17:03

endorsed Jim Jordan of Ohio in

17:05

the race. And senators from both parties

17:08

are giving the house a serious reality

17:10

check, warning them that a more conservative

17:13

speaker will not have any

17:15

more luck pushing through legislation with

17:17

the slim, slim margin that they've got. Back

17:19

with me tonight to discuss a true expert,

17:22

former Republican Congressman David Jolly, he's

17:24

now chairman of the Serve America Movement

17:26

and lucky us an MSNBC political

17:28

contributor. David, these are

17:31

your former colleagues. Please give

17:33

us your assessment of where your old party is tonight.

17:37

Well, in trouble. I

17:39

mean, that's the assessment in trouble

17:41

because I think the framing of this, as

17:43

you contrast it with Senate Republicans

17:46

is a very important one because ultimately

17:49

it's easy to realize that House

17:51

Democrats are in opposition

17:53

to House Republicans, Senate Democrats are Joe

17:55

Biden is, but really Steph.

17:59

The biggest problem for House. Republicans is Senate

18:01

Republicans don't actually want anything that

18:03

they have to offer. And Kevin

18:05

McCarthy learned that, the caucus learned that during

18:07

the shutdown. And so how does that

18:10

come into immediate play? It comes into

18:12

immediate play because as they are having this

18:14

contest for the next speaker, it

18:16

all has to be within the framing

18:19

of what do they do with a budget negotiation

18:21

in 45 days, because whomever

18:23

the new speaker is for the Republicans is

18:25

going to lose. They're going to face a major

18:28

loss in their first 30 to 45 days. And

18:31

how do they promise the caucus that they

18:33

will lose that gracefully but continue to fight

18:36

the weird dynamic among speaker candidates

18:38

right now?

18:39

Okay, then how do you deal with this wrinkle? If

18:42

the next thing that has to happen is how do we

18:44

keep the government open? What do you do

18:46

with the Donald Trump endorsement? Donald

18:48

Trump now endorsing Jim Jordan. So

18:50

in theory, that would make Jordan the easy

18:52

favorite. And I can think of

18:54

Donald Trump just a few months ago, a few

18:57

weeks ago going, let's go

18:59

for a shutdown. What do we care? Blow this thing up.

19:01

Trump doesn't want the government to stay open in function.

19:05

Yeah, and as president, I think he shut the government down

19:07

for almost 30 days. So we know

19:10

that he is willing to do that. We know that Jim Jordan

19:12

is willing to do that. I think the

19:14

last 36 hours has been very predictable in

19:17

seeing Jordan and Scalise emerges as the front

19:19

runner seeing Trump endorse Jordan.

19:22

And what I would suggest we're going to see come out of

19:24

this mathematically is Trump's

19:26

endorsement of Jordan likely knocks out

19:28

Scalise mathematically. But

19:30

I don't think it puts Jordan over

19:33

the top because even Trump's

19:35

endorsement isn't enough for a couple of Republicans.

19:37

I think you saw two House Republicans who voted

19:39

to impeach Donald Trump. You

19:42

have a couple who would never vote for

19:44

Donald Trump or his candidate. And because

19:46

the margins are so slim, can

19:48

Jim Jordan still get to 218? The one

19:51

thing that will be different in this environment than

19:53

January is Republicans can

19:55

have that conversation behind closed

19:58

doors and know that they're at 218. 18 votes

20:01

before they go to the House floor. They don't

20:03

have to expose all their dirty laundry to the country

20:05

and go through 15 votes on the House floor. They

20:08

can wait until they've done it behind closed doors,

20:10

go to the floor for one single vote.

20:13

So how long do you think this is gonna take?

20:16

I think it's going to take a while because

20:19

you have members who are demanding

20:21

things that contradict each other. Some are

20:23

demanding rule changes, some are demanding impeachment,

20:26

some are demanding Ukraine money, some are demanding

20:28

no Ukraine money. The margins are

20:30

just too thin, which then opens up this

20:32

conversation. Are there a handful

20:34

of Republicans today that would be willing to

20:36

work with Democrats? That's

20:39

a far bridge to cross, and

20:41

those Republicans might as well switch to the Democratic

20:44

Party if they're going to do that. I

20:46

think we're looking at another couple weeks before this

20:49

all gets settled out.

20:50

Okay, that takes me directly to my next

20:53

question, and I realize how far this bridge

20:55

is potentially, but House Minority

20:58

Leader Hakeem Jeffries wrote a Washington Post

21:00

op-ed earlier today, arguing for

21:02

a bipartisan coalition to leave the

21:04

House.

21:05

Do you see any

21:06

scenario where that could actually

21:08

happen?

21:10

Here's the interesting thing, Steph. We are going to

21:12

have coalition governing for the next 14 months,

21:15

but both parties probably don't wanna call

21:17

it that. Maybe Hakeem Jeffries ultimately

21:20

will. But if you consider the debt deal that

21:22

got done, if you consider the CR that got done,

21:24

if you consider the coalition it will take to

21:27

govern for the next 14 months, it's

21:29

going to be Republicans and Democrats, and the hard

21:31

right's going to be angry about it. Now, are

21:34

we going to call it coalition government? Who

21:36

knows, but I think this is where, in the

21:38

immediate timeframe, we

21:40

do have to separate, to a certain extent, the

21:42

speakership race and the budget

21:45

negotiations, because I think you do have

21:47

five to 10 Republicans willing

21:50

to play ball with Democrats on a budget

21:52

deal. But that does not mean they're willing

21:54

to play ball with Democrats on a speakership

21:57

deal, and that is the family

21:59

conversation that has. to get sorted out. You

22:01

might have these five to ten Republicans throw

22:03

their lot in behind maybe a Jim Jordan, whoever

22:07

the identified candidate is for speaker

22:09

for Republicans, while also throwing

22:12

their support in with Democrats for some type

22:14

of coalition to keep the government open.

22:16

I think that's how the next 14 months is really going to

22:18

look as we face these cliffs time and time

22:21

again.

22:22

You know, there might be some days, David, where

22:24

you miss being a member of Congress. I'm

22:27

going to guess definitely not tonight.

22:29

Always good to see you. Thank you for joining us.

22:32

When we come back, you cannot go anywhere.

22:34

Not tonight. A conversation you

22:37

do not want to miss. Transgender

22:39

athletes. It is a polarizing topic

22:41

in this country and it's one filled with

22:44

misinformation. Tonight we're going to get

22:46

to the truth. We're going to answer questions

22:48

a lot of people have and they're too afraid

22:50

to ask.

23:02

More than 400 bills targeting transgender

23:04

people have been introduced nationwide,

23:06

according to the Equality

23:08

Federation. And with numbers like that, Republicans

23:11

might have you thinking that support for

23:13

this group does not exist.

23:15

But that is not true. Not at all.

23:17

In fact, there are a lot of people that do

23:19

not understand that this is a

23:21

very, very vulnerable group and

23:24

they deserve to have their voices heard

23:26

and their stories told. So I sat

23:28

down with folks

23:30

who are experts on the subject. Dr.

23:32

Jack Turbin, an assistant professor of child

23:35

and adolescent psychiatry at the University

23:37

of California, San Francisco. His research

23:40

focuses on the mental health of transgender

23:42

youth with some of it even getting cited

23:44

in major court cases. ESPN's

23:46

Katie Barnes, author of the book Fair

23:49

Play, has forced shape the gender

23:51

debates and triathlete

23:53

Chris Moser, one of the most successful

23:56

transgender athletes in American

23:58

history. We had a very important conversation. that

24:00

I am honored to share with you right now.

24:05

Doctor, one of the biggest issues, there is just so

24:07

much misinformation on the subject. There's

24:09

this idea out there. The kids are showing

24:11

up to school on a Monday after getting

24:13

bullied and saying, oh, it must be

24:15

my gender. Today I'm gonna be a boy,

24:18

or I'm gonna be a girl, or that kids wanna

24:20

change their gender because it'll make them more competitive

24:22

in sports. Is this happening?

24:26

So I think what a lot of people don't understand,

24:29

particularly for gender-affirming medical interventions, which

24:31

is what people are concerned about, is that there's

24:33

a very structured protocol for a doctor

24:35

to ever consider prescribing those to a young person.

24:38

So a person would need to identify

24:40

as transgender for at least six months to

24:42

meet criteria for this diagnosis called gender

24:45

dysphoria, and then they'd have to undergo

24:47

a comprehensive mental health evaluation

24:50

and get consent from their parents and the doctor

24:52

and fully understand all the risks and benefits of those treatments.

24:55

So I think there's some media notion that

24:58

gender-affirming medical care in particular moves very,

25:00

very quickly, and the reality is that it's a very

25:02

slow

25:03

process. In terms of adopting

25:05

a new gender identity for sports, I've

25:07

never seen that happen. We're in California,

25:09

where we're probably one of the states with the least stigma

25:12

towards trans youth, but there's still a lot.

25:15

I have kids who are being barked at, a

25:18

reference that all LGBT people

25:20

are furries and constantly harassed

25:23

for being trans. So this notion that they would sacrifice

25:27

so much to be able to win in sports,

25:30

given all the hostility they would face if they did that,

25:32

I think it's just not a realistic understanding of how

25:35

school operates today.

25:38

One of the issues is a lack of information.

25:41

So let's say a young boy wakes up

25:43

and says, I'm a girl, what is the next

25:45

thing that happens?

25:48

Usually not a lot. Two might

25:50

talk to their parents about that. And

25:54

it's also gonna depend on the age of the adolescent.

25:56

So if it's someone before puberty, then

25:59

maybe that parent might want to talk to the school or

26:01

talk to a therapist. So that can be

26:03

a top therapy to understand what that means. Right?

26:06

For some very young kids, things are confusing between

26:08

what are gender roles? What is sex? What

26:12

is gender? And sitting with the therapist can

26:14

help them understand that. And it's not infrequent

26:16

that they realize, no, I'm a cisgender person

26:19

who likes dolls. You know, that's

26:21

not an uncommon thing that happens as

26:23

kids realize they just don't fit into gender

26:26

roles. And they're very different

26:28

kids who really do have a strong

26:31

disconnect with their second time at birth in

26:33

a way that feels really important and salient to them. So

26:36

they may be in therapy for a longer period of time.

26:38

And then when they start puberty, if they start having

26:41

really negative mental health impacts and

26:43

their body's developing in ways that don't align

26:45

with who they are, that's when they might start

26:48

this very long process of potentially working with

26:50

a therapist, getting on a long

26:52

wait list for a clinic that can be over a year

26:54

to start talking about any kind of gender occurring medical

26:56

interventions. It's a very slow

26:58

stepwise process.

27:01

Chris, a lot of people out there want to be

27:03

supportive of the trans community, but

27:05

when it comes to

27:06

sports, youth sports, they

27:08

get a little more squeamish and they think, is

27:11

that one right? Should this be

27:13

happening? How do you respond to them?

27:16

This is really about, is every

27:19

person able to have their

27:22

basic dignity and respect just

27:24

like everybody else. It's not

27:26

fair for us to consider that we would treat

27:28

a transgender girl as a girl from 8

27:31

a.m. to 3 p.m. in her classroom,

27:33

but then say that she has to be a boy

27:36

when it comes to sports. So really

27:38

at the end of the day, this is about young people

27:40

having the opportunity to learn all

27:43

of the incredible benefits that come from playing

27:45

sports with their friends and having that same

27:47

opportunities as their peers, regardless

27:49

of how they identify their gender.

27:52

Everyone deserves a chance to express

27:54

themselves and have their dignity

27:56

and be included, but roll

27:58

call with me. What do you think?

27:59

say to that runner, that

28:02

weightlifter who devoted herself

28:05

to that competitive sport and has reached

28:07

the top of the game and now

28:09

fears or could be missing out on opportunities

28:11

or scholarships because they say a

28:14

trans athlete is stopping

28:16

them from doing that. Well, it might be one

28:18

in a million and they don't need legislation.

28:21

What do you say to that young athlete?

28:24

Yeah, I'm really happy that you brought up scholarships

28:26

because I think this is one of the things that we hear

28:28

a lot from both athletes

28:31

and primarily I would say from their parents

28:33

for parents of young people is that

28:36

this opportunity is going to be lost

28:38

if transgender athletes are able to participate.

28:41

And the truth is in mentoring

28:44

transgender athletes and working

28:46

with their families over the course of over

28:48

a decade now, I have never met

28:51

a young transgender person who has

28:53

received an athletic scholarship to NCAA

28:55

sports. This is one of the tactics

28:58

that has been used to create fear

29:00

and the sort of divisiveness between

29:03

cisgender girls and women and

29:05

the trans community when in

29:07

fact these attacks on transgender athletes

29:10

and the attempts to prevent them

29:12

from having the same opportunities as their peers

29:15

is really an attack to all women

29:17

and girls. There are so

29:19

many issues within women's and girls sports

29:22

that we should be paying attention to like

29:24

unequal access to opportunities,

29:27

unequal pay, lack of media coverage,

29:29

high rates of sexual assault

29:31

and misconduct, which is incredibly

29:34

important right now as state legislatures

29:36

are trying to pass and have passed bills

29:39

into law that would allow investigations

29:41

and inspections of young people's

29:44

bodies. So what we really need to remember

29:46

here is that these attacks

29:48

on the trans community in sports actually impact

29:51

all women and girls and we need to be protecting

29:54

everybody within sports and particularly

29:56

young people at this time.

29:59

your book is called Fair Play. Talk

30:02

to us about fairness, because

30:05

you go to your standing on a sideline

30:07

at a youth sports game right now.

30:09

And you anecdotally hear over and

30:12

over, if there's a trans athlete competing,

30:14

it's not fair. So

30:17

when it comes to fairness, I

30:19

think one of the things that's happening is

30:22

that we're simultaneously trying

30:24

to have many different conversations.

30:27

And so one of the things that I don't think

30:30

people fully understand is that

30:33

when we talk about transgender athletes and

30:35

their desire to participate in sports,

30:38

we're not just talking about Olympic level

30:41

athletes. And the legislation that

30:43

has passed around the country does not

30:45

make the distinction between

30:47

elite level athletes and young

30:49

people. And in fact, a lot of it goes out of its way

30:52

to be as broad and affect

30:54

as many athletes and as many young

30:56

people in general as possible. And

30:59

so consequently, we have legislation that

31:01

is affecting kids

31:03

as young as elementary school, but then

31:05

also in many of these, in many

31:07

of these laws, it's affecting who can participate in collegiate

31:10

intramural sports, which has

31:12

nothing to do with who's going to get a scholarship,

31:15

and who's going to win an Olympic medal, and who's

31:17

going to win a sectional championship or state championship

31:20

in high school. So when

31:22

it comes to fairness, I think what's

31:24

been stripped away from the conversation is

31:27

stakes. What are the stakes?

31:30

And then what is the appropriate policy to

31:33

govern the level of sporting

31:35

participation that we're talking about? And

31:37

for the overwhelming majority of

31:40

people playing school sports, their

31:43

experience is going to be,

31:45

you know, K through 12,

31:48

if they get through high school, such a small

31:50

number of athletes that we're talking about who compete

31:53

at the level that Chris does and has throughout

31:55

his career. And so the fairness

31:58

is Often I think

32:01

a term that is being weaponized to justify

32:03

broad-based legislation instead of

32:05

having specific conversations about

32:08

specific policy differences.

32:11

Katie, there's this assumption for

32:13

male to female athletes,

32:15

they have the advantage. Is that true?

32:19

It has a really hard question to answer.

32:21

If the question is

32:24

for those who are assigned male at birth

32:27

who go through testosterone driven puberty, do

32:29

they receive a certain level of

32:31

physiological and metabolic advantages

32:33

that can be applied in sports? In

32:36

other words, are men typically

32:38

bigger, faster, stronger on average? The

32:41

answer to that is yes. But that does

32:43

not mean that somebody who

32:46

is assigned male at birth is going to be

32:48

a better athlete in all circumstances

32:51

in perpetuity than any person

32:53

who's assigned female at birth. That's

32:55

ultimately what we're talking about. When you

32:57

look at elite athletes and

33:00

the distillate, which I think is the purest

33:02

distillation of the athletic form, we

33:05

know that yes, elite male

33:07

athletes are faster than elite female athletes.

33:10

But that does not mean that seven-year-olds

33:13

cannot play soccer together all

33:15

within under the

33:17

same rules and without gender distinctions.

33:19

Chris, for these laws being

33:21

passed, how would one even

33:24

know if somebody competing is

33:26

transgender without doing something outrageously

33:30

invasive?

33:32

Well, that's just it. And that's one of the problems

33:35

with these bills and these

33:37

laws is that it really subjects all

33:39

women and girls to increase scrutiny

33:42

of their bodies and of their gender presentation. And

33:45

we're seeing this play out across the country

33:47

and around the world. There was a nine-year-old cisgender

33:51

girl who was accused of being

33:53

transgender by a parent in

33:55

the stands. And we're talking about a

33:57

middle school track meet. and

34:00

a young person being accused of being trans

34:03

and therefore being told that they don't belong

34:05

in that sport just because of their

34:07

athletic performance or because of

34:09

their gender presentation. And

34:12

this is the reason why these

34:14

bills are harmful to all women and

34:16

girls. And we need to be paying attention to the

34:18

way that we are putting these restrictions

34:21

and policing people's bodies and expression,

34:24

because you're absolutely right. There should be

34:26

no circumstance in this country

34:28

or anywhere in the world where we are

34:31

allowing adults to

34:33

inspect young people's bodies

34:36

or investigate their hormones or chromosomes

34:38

to determine whether or not they can

34:40

play school sports with their friends.

34:43

Dr. Without you having treated that

34:45

nine-year-old

34:46

girl,

34:47

what does something like that do to a

34:50

child just trying to play sports?

34:54

Yes, the one thing that's been just called

34:56

lately is that it's not even just the sports

34:59

conversation, but these kids watch

35:01

the news or on social media, so

35:03

they hear politicians say things like, you

35:05

can't play sports with your friends, you're physically

35:07

dangerous to them. Or you can't

35:10

use the bathroom that matches your gender identity because

35:12

you're going to sexually assault someone. Or

35:15

you can't have your medical care because you're

35:17

actually just mentally ill and you need to be changed.

35:19

And this thing about you that you know you can't change

35:22

is wrong and shameful. So

35:24

I think it's easy for most of us to understand how

35:26

that would drive a lot of shame and anxiety

35:29

and depression for these kids, even separate from

35:31

the kids who are interested in playing sports, because they're

35:33

just constantly, constantly hearing messages

35:36

from powerful people and stigmatizing

35:38

them and telling them that they're dangerous

35:41

and things about them are wrong. They might know

35:43

on a conscious level that's not true, but

35:45

it's really hard to get that out of your mind if

35:47

you're hearing it all the time. So to me

35:49

the issue here that we really should be talking about is

35:51

how these trans kids are being treated and

35:53

we should be wondering, you know, why aren't they even participating

35:55

in sports? Because we know that they're not dominating

35:58

sports leagues.

35:59

Everyone is sticking around. We'll continue this conversation

36:02

right after this.

36:10

It's okay to use your phone at a football

36:12

game. But

36:15

you should never use your phone behind

36:17

the wheel. Fines

36:21

now start at $150. So phones down. It's the law.

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37:02

Dr. Jack Turbin, Chris Moser and

37:04

Katie Barnes still with me. I want to talk

37:06

about funding, Katie, because what tiny

37:09

amount of transgender

37:11

athletes this is even about, yet

37:13

it's taking an enormous amount of

37:16

time and attention that schools

37:18

and communities are working on. And most

37:21

public schools out there are already struggling

37:23

with underfunding. So again, while

37:25

it's for a small amount of people, we often

37:28

hear, well, there's this locker room issue. How

37:30

do you address the locker room issue to those

37:32

who say, well, trans

37:34

people shouldn't necessarily be in a different

37:37

sex locker room, but schools

37:39

don't have the money to build another locker

37:42

room. How do you address these things?

37:44

Well, I think

37:47

part of this conversation

37:50

is ultimately a distraction. I

37:53

think there's a concern for privacy

37:55

in the locker room. And I grew up playing girls sports.

39:17

communication

40:00

in elementary school that, you know, if

40:02

there's a little boy who's playing with dolls

40:04

and dresses to say, that's fine.

40:07

Some boys like playing with dolls and dresses. And

40:10

just taking away the stigma, I think, is what's important

40:13

more than anything.

40:15

Chris, is there an argument to be made that it's

40:17

becoming too much of a focus? Right.

40:20

If I was a 10-year-old girl today and I

40:22

was a tomboy, like I was then, would

40:24

I be asking myself, am I in the wrong

40:27

body?

40:27

I don't think the issue of

40:29

exposure is one that

40:32

we should be worried about. And what I mean by that

40:34

is having representation

40:36

and having positive role models from

40:39

the trans community is not going

40:41

to make someone be transgender.

40:44

My presence and me being a visible

40:47

out transgender athlete does not make

40:49

a kid be transgender. It might just

40:51

make them see themselves and

40:53

see hope and possibility for themselves

40:56

in this world, which is so incredibly

40:58

important to the doctor's point. I didn't

41:00

have that when I was a kid. When

41:02

I was a young person, I never pictured

41:04

myself getting married, having

41:07

a job or a successful career. I

41:09

couldn't picture a version of myself past

41:11

the age of 25. I had no

41:13

hope because I didn't see any example

41:16

of anybody who was like me doing what I wanted

41:19

to do. And so if anything, I

41:21

think representation and visibility

41:23

is an incredibly powerful tool for

41:26

social change and for people,

41:28

all people, to see a possibility

41:30

for themselves. And when we're talking

41:32

about young people here, more

41:35

exposure to different types of people

41:37

is net positive for everyone. There's

41:40

no harm in any young tomboy

41:42

or any young kid seeing representation

41:45

of the trans community and thinking that

41:47

they might be turned

41:49

trans as well. Being transgender is

41:51

not contagious and visibility

41:54

and exposure does not make a young person

41:56

be trans or queer or anything

41:58

else. gives them options

42:01

and hope.

42:04

Thank you so much for saying that. Doctor,

42:06

we often hear on the right this

42:08

argument that there are people out there

42:11

who regret

42:11

transitioning. Is that true?

42:13

Is it actually

42:15

happening with any real numbers? It's complicated.

42:19

We wouldn't, anytime

42:21

that we talk to a family about starting

42:23

a medical intervention, it is something that we talk about, the

42:25

possibility that you will not want to do

42:27

this treatment anymore in the future or the possibility of

42:29

regret. Most of the research we have

42:32

is on the order of 1-2% of people

42:35

stopping medications. One

42:37

thing I'll tell people to be really careful

42:39

about is if you ever see a research paper talking

42:42

about detransition, to be

42:45

really careful what that means. Because if

42:48

you talk to adult trans people, we published

42:50

a research study, 27,000 trans adults,

42:53

more than 10% of them had detransition at some point

42:55

in the past. And most of them said always because

42:57

of stigma. People harass them, they

43:00

couldn't get a job, they were afraid of what life would

43:02

be like for being trans. So you could call

43:04

that detransition, but really it's not a forced detransition.

43:08

And those people later in life transitioned

43:10

again. But when we truly look at regret,

43:12

the rates appear to be quite low on the order of 1% or 2.

43:16

I just want to remind our audience,

43:17

it

43:18

is a pathway. All of this takes

43:20

a long period of time. It

43:22

is not like your 14-year-old walking

43:24

in and saying they want to get their nose pierced

43:27

or want to get a mohawk and heading out and doing

43:29

it the next day.

43:30

It is a long process with

43:32

therapists and

43:33

all sorts of medical professionals helping

43:35

families

43:36

figure this out. Chris, I want

43:38

to give you the last

43:38

word. Anything else you want to make sure you

43:40

share with our audience? Yeah, thank you so much.

43:43

It's so important that people zoom

43:45

out here and really look at the issue

43:47

at hand. I mean, what we're talking about

43:49

has become a political issue. And

43:52

my identity as a trans person is

43:54

not political. It has been politicized.

43:58

And these young kids across the country... who

44:00

just want to play sports with their friends, are

44:03

also being politicized, and they're

44:05

being the targets of harassment and

44:07

discrimination from adult lawmakers who

44:10

have far greater issues to

44:12

take care of right now. So I encourage

44:14

everyone to zoom out and look at the bigger picture

44:17

here, which is this is just about

44:19

kids trying to be kids and getting all

44:22

of the incredible benefits that young people receive

44:24

from sport, and every young person

44:26

should have the opportunity to get that.

44:28

All right, thank you all so, so much. I really

44:30

appreciate your time. On that note,

44:32

I wish you all a good night. From all of our

44:34

colleagues across the network of NBC News,

44:37

thanks for staying up late

44:38

with me. I'll see you at the end of Monday.

44:46

It's okay to use your phone at a football game,

44:48

but

44:50

you should never use your phone behind

44:52

the wheel.

44:55

Finds now start at $150, so phone's down.

45:00

It's the law.