0:00

Do you find yourself searching for true crime

0:02

podcasts that are different from what you're

0:04

always recommended? Do you want to make

0:06

a real difference in the cases that

0:08

you're following? Well, you're a crime junkie.

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And I'm Ashley Flowers, the creator and

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host of the number one true crime

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podcast, Crime Junkie. There are

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hundreds of episodes already available, and each

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Monday we dive into the details of

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cases spanning from some of the most

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infamous to those that you have never

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heard covered before. Listen to Crime Junkie

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podcast now, wherever you're listening. Tonight,

0:33

new witnesses in Donald Trump's New

0:35

York trial. Trump's longtime

0:37

personal assistant and Michael Cohen's banker

0:39

take the stand as the first

0:41

week of testimony comes to an

0:43

end. Then protests

0:45

over the war in Gaza now

0:48

spreading across America's college campuses. What

0:50

the growing unrest could mean for

0:53

President Biden's reelection campaign. Plus

0:55

from books online to e-commerce

0:57

giant, how Amazon became the

1:00

retailer with everything everywhere,

1:02

all at once as the 11th

1:04

hour gets underway on this Friday

1:06

night. Good

1:12

evening, I'm Jonathan Capehart in for Stephanie Rule.

1:14

We are now 193 days away from the

1:16

election. And

1:20

today, attorneys for presidential candidate Donald

1:22

Trump tried to poke holes in

1:24

a tab Lloyd publishers sworn testimony

1:27

after four days on the stand.

1:29

David Packer wrapped up his testimony

1:31

in Trump's New York criminal trial

1:34

that he helped the Trump campaign

1:36

by covering up true but damaging

1:38

stories about him. Then

1:40

we heard from two more witnesses, a

1:43

banker and Trump's longtime executive

1:45

assistant. Here's NBC's Laura

1:48

Jarrett with more. Tonight

1:51

the prosecution closing out the first week

1:53

of testimony by offering the jury a

1:55

peak inside the inner workings of the

1:58

Trump organization from one of the the

2:00

people who knows the former president

2:02

best. The state briefly calling Rona

2:05

Graf, Mr. Trump's longtime executive assistant

2:07

to the stand this afternoon. Graf

2:10

confirming contacts were saved on

2:12

the company's computer system for

2:14

Karen McDougal and Stormy, an

2:16

apparent reference to Stormy Daniels.

2:19

Prosecutors say both women were shopping stories of

2:21

sex with Mr. Trump ahead of the 2016

2:23

election. Encounters

2:25

he denies. At

2:30

the heart of the case, a

2:32

$130,000 payment Michael Cohen made to

2:34

Daniels so she wouldn't go public.

2:36

And how prosecutors say that payment

2:38

was disguised. But Graf shed no

2:40

light on that. Testifying even though

2:42

she no longer works for the

2:44

Trump organization, the company is paying

2:47

her legal bills. The jury

2:49

also hearing from Gary Farrow, a

2:51

former banker at First Republic Bank

2:53

who helped facilitate the payment from

2:55

Cohen to Daniels. But the

2:58

day began with the defense team seeking

3:00

to undercut the testimony of David Pekar,

3:02

the former publisher of the National Enquirer

3:05

and a key witness for prosecutors. Testifying

3:08

at length about how he helped silence

3:10

people who could have hurt Mr. Trump's

3:12

election chances. Mr. Trump's lawyer sought

3:14

to raise questions about Pekar's memory

3:17

and motives on cross-examination. Pekar

3:20

defiant at one point saying, I've

3:22

been truthful to the best of

3:24

my recollection. The tabloid mogul

3:26

also undermining the idea Mr. Trump

3:28

wanted to bury those stories about

3:30

women to protect his family, a

3:32

common refrain from the defense. Instead,

3:35

Pekar said he believed it was all

3:37

to protect his campaign. Melania

3:44

Trump, notably absent, at

3:47

trial. Court

3:49

will not be in session on Monday, so the

3:52

trial will resume on Tuesday at 9.30 a.m.

3:56

With that, let's bring in our lead-off

3:58

panel, John Allen, Senior National Policy politics

4:00

reporter for NBC, Eugene Scott,

4:02

senior politics reporter for Axios, and

4:04

Ankush Kedore, former federal prosecutor and

4:06

senior writer for Politico magazine. Thank

4:09

you all for being here, Ankush.

4:11

I'm going to start with you.

4:13

Trump's former longtime executive assistant testified

4:15

for half an hour. She was known

4:18

as the gatekeeper and said that a

4:20

company directory had numbers for both Stormy

4:23

Daniels and Karen McDougal. She

4:25

also said the Trump organization was

4:27

paying her legal bills. Why did

4:29

the prosecution, what did the prosecution gain

4:31

from her testimony? Well,

4:34

they introduced a small fact, which

4:37

is that the Stormy Daniels has her

4:39

contact information in the Trump organization system.

4:42

Now, one of the reasons

4:44

why I suspect that fact was presented is

4:46

because we're going to see the prosecutors attempt

4:48

to establish that Trump

4:50

and Stormy Daniels did in fact have a

4:53

intimate sexual encounter, which

4:55

Trump is denied and the Trump's lawyers denied

4:57

during the opening statement. So I think

5:00

this is the first piece of evidence. And I guess that

5:02

there will be more evidence along these lines because I guess

5:05

that the prosecutors want to be able to say

5:07

to the jurors, but at the end of this,

5:09

you don't have to just take Stormy Daniels word.

5:12

We've presented additional evidence because Trump has been saying

5:14

that she's lying and this and that. So

5:16

that to me is the significance of

5:18

this because the prosecutors can establish that

5:20

Trump, well, to the extent

5:22

that prosecutors can establish that Trump is lying about

5:24

anything, it is helpful to their case. And this

5:26

is a big point. He's denied that he's had

5:28

this encounter with her, but it appears that it

5:31

did in fact happen. And

5:33

John Michael Cohen's banker was also

5:35

briefly on the stand today. It

5:37

seems like the prosecution is starting

5:39

to dig into the record. We're

5:41

talking dollars and cents. Who signed

5:43

what and specific dates on specific

5:45

documents? How crucial is it that

5:47

the prosecution nails this part, nails

5:49

this part so they don't have

5:51

to worry about whether the jury

5:53

buys the testimony of, say, Michael

5:56

Cohen? It's

5:58

absolutely crucial. These

6:00

are very high stakes. The witnesses we're

6:03

hearing from now are people who, you

6:05

know, have, I think, a greater

6:07

record of credibility than

6:09

Michael Cohen, who is going to be sort

6:11

of the star witness, and also the one

6:14

that is easiest for the defense to undermine,

6:16

because he has pleaded guilty

6:18

in the past align. So when

6:20

you see these figures come up, whether

6:22

it's Ronograph, the gatekeeper to Trump World,

6:24

or the banker for Michael Cohen, and

6:27

they're testifying to what seemed

6:29

to be kind of a small pedestrian

6:31

things, like how banking transaction works, or

6:33

whose phone numbers in the Trump system,

6:35

all of that is the prosecution laying

6:37

a predicate for their story, laying out

6:40

the details for the jury of each little

6:42

piece, and trying to build credibility in their

6:44

case before they ultimately get to Cohen. And

6:46

they're going to rely on Cohen as

6:48

a witness, but they're also going

6:50

to hope that and try

6:53

to make an attempt to

6:55

have all of these other pieces stack up

6:57

outside of what Cohen says and point to

6:59

what Cohen says, so that what he says

7:02

has greater credibility than Michael Cohen himself. Hey,

7:05

Unkish, let's talk about the order

7:07

of all of this. The prosecution

7:09

starts with the blockbuster witness, David

7:11

Packer. Now they're moving into the

7:13

nitty gritty. What kind of strategy

7:15

goes into the sequence here? Oh,

7:18

I think it's largely chronological so

7:20

far, as I can see it, right? They're

7:22

just trying to lay out the tell a

7:25

story in a simple chronological fashion. The best

7:27

way to tell a story often is chronologically.

7:31

But I think that's what's happening here. And I expect

7:33

at some point, perhaps even next week, they're

7:36

going to need to start to move into, okay, now how

7:38

are these payments

7:40

booked internally within the Trump organization? That may be

7:42

the next week or the following week, but at

7:44

some point the trial needs to get there. That's

7:46

really the meat and potatoes of the

7:49

actual charges against Trump. Eugene.

7:54

Keith keeps complaining about the trial,

7:56

keeping him off the campaign trail.

8:00

Wednesday when, you know, Wednesday was

8:02

his one day, his

8:04

Wednesday off from court this week, and

8:06

he went golfing. Obviously, he doesn't

8:08

wanna be in court, but is it fair

8:10

to say he doesn't seem to care that

8:12

much about campaigning either? It's

8:15

very difficult to make the argument that

8:17

he's prioritizing getting his message to voters

8:19

who aren't already on board with

8:22

him. He would use this time, if

8:24

he was, to try to win over

8:27

independent voters, swing voters, undecided voters,

8:29

which quite frankly are still a

8:31

larger percentage of the electorate than

8:33

some people would communicate. Instead, he's

8:35

prioritized one of his favorite pastimes,

8:37

which quite frankly shouldn't be a

8:40

huge surprise to anyone who was

8:42

paying attention to his presidency. He

8:44

often went to golf during moments

8:46

when people thought he could do

8:48

a better job of connecting with

8:51

Americans who weren't really sure that they had as

8:53

much confidence in his ability to lead the country.

8:57

Oh my God. John, on the

8:59

other hand, you've got President Biden. He's been

9:02

very busy out on the campaign trail,

9:04

and he's starting to talk about Trump's

9:06

trial at least a bit.

9:09

At one event last night, he said that

9:11

he hasn't had a chance to watch the

9:13

proceedings because he's been campaigning in all the

9:15

states in the past. He's completely

9:18

avoided talking about Trump's legal trouble. What

9:20

does it say? That's

9:22

starting to change. I

9:25

think what it says is that there are people around him who

9:28

see Donald Trump's charges that he

9:30

faces in four separate cases

9:32

as Donald Trump's greatest vulnerability. And

9:35

the Biden campaign and Biden himself

9:37

aren't talking about that. They are missing

9:40

an opportunity to do political damage to

9:42

Donald Trump, who by the way, is

9:44

making an allegation not

9:46

supported by facts or not supported by

9:48

any evidence that Biden is actually using

9:51

the legal system against and weaponizing the legal

9:54

system against him for political gain. So Biden's

9:56

taken that hit, but had

9:58

not been really... hitting Trump

10:01

on these charges that he faces.

10:04

We saw in the earlier case

10:06

Biden played around with this a little bit and said, you

10:08

know, Donald Trump might get

10:10

a loan, you know, is

10:13

having some financial problems. So,

10:16

but I think what's going on here is Biden

10:18

trying to go as far as he can to

10:20

hit Trump on his biggest vulnerability without

10:22

going so far as to support the

10:24

argument that Trump is

10:27

making that Biden is intentionally weaponizing the

10:29

justice system against him. Yeah,

10:33

Eugene, the president sat for an incredibly

10:35

revealing interview with Howard Stern this morning

10:37

and for the first time said

10:40

he'd be happy, that's a quote,

10:42

happy to debate Donald Trump. His

10:45

campaign had refused to commit to a

10:47

debate for a while now. So why

10:50

say this now, do you think? Well,

10:52

I think he was getting quite a bit

10:54

of criticism from those on the right that

10:57

he was not able to talk about the

11:00

policy issues that matter most to

11:02

many voters, specifically those outside of,

11:05

you know, his base. And that gave

11:07

Trump a leg up. And Trump was

11:09

using that on the campaign trail, suggesting

11:11

that the president was fearful of him.

11:13

But I think as we get closer

11:15

to the election, what Biden and his

11:17

team realize is that he's going to

11:19

have to adopt new strategies to communicate

11:21

to voters why he is superior to

11:23

the former president. And one of the

11:25

ways you can do that is by

11:27

being on a stage and going tit

11:29

for tat when it comes to policy

11:31

issues. And so we might see this

11:33

actually happen sooner than later, where

11:36

they are right now in terms of plants and

11:38

actually bringing it to fruition isn't clear yet. But

11:40

there has been a real shift, because we do

11:42

know that this is not something or approach, should

11:45

we say, that the president seems

11:47

very interested in taking before now. Anybody

11:50

who thinks that Joe Biden doesn't want

11:53

to debate Donald Trump doesn't know Joe

11:55

Biden, I'm just going to put that

11:57

out there. John, during that,

11:59

Howard Stern, interview, the president spoke very

12:01

openly about how much he struggled with the

12:03

tragic car crash that killed his first wife

12:05

and one year old daughter in 1972. Listen

12:07

to this. Never

12:13

drank. Never drank. And

12:16

I used to sit there and think to

12:18

myself, I'm just going to take out a

12:20

bottle of scotch. There was, we always had

12:22

liquor in the house, my house as well.

12:25

And I was going to just drink

12:27

it and get drunk. And I can never

12:29

bring myself to do it. And I actually

12:31

thought about, you know, you

12:34

don't have to be crazy to commit suicide. If you've

12:36

been to the top of the mountain, you think it's

12:38

never going to be there again. And just a brief

12:41

moment. I thought maybe I just go to the

12:43

Delaware Memorial Bridge and jump. Truly

12:47

incredible, John. The president went on to

12:49

say that he strongly urges anyone who's

12:51

struggling with their mental health to seek

12:54

help and go to therapy. But

12:56

how remarkable is it, John, to

12:58

hear a president openly talk about

13:00

contemplating suicide? And what does it

13:02

tell us about Biden, the human

13:05

being? Yeah,

13:07

I mean, it's remarkable is the

13:09

right word might even be an

13:11

understatement. You know, presidents of the United

13:13

States and vast candidates in the past

13:16

have never wanted to suggest that

13:18

they struggled with any mental health issue. Or in

13:20

the case that he's talking about here, he says

13:23

he doesn't even think it's really a mental health

13:25

issue, given where he had been and what

13:28

had happened in his life to be in that

13:30

place of contemplation. But you know,

13:32

this is not the kind of thing that

13:34

most candidates would talk about. But I also

13:36

believe it's something that is a unique Biden

13:38

strength and has been a strength for him

13:41

for a long time, which is to be

13:43

able to talk about loss, to be able

13:45

to talk about pain and tragedy in a

13:47

way that connects with his

13:49

fellow Americans that connect with voters who have

13:51

lost in their lives, who have experienced pain

13:54

in their lives, and that empathy

13:56

and his ability to to emote

13:58

and to be, you know, show up and in that

14:00

moment with Howard Stern, that's a great

14:02

strength of Joe Biden's. It's

14:05

probably not enough on its own to win

14:07

him reelection, but it is

14:09

certainly when voters look at

14:11

the candidates and stack them up, Joe

14:14

Biden's, the empathy that

14:16

they have for him and his ability to have empathy for

14:18

them is one of those

14:20

character traits that I think really stands out about

14:22

him. Yeah, it's an hour

14:25

and 15 minutes long, the interview. It

14:28

is spectacular in just how raw

14:30

and human the president

14:32

is and funny. As someone

14:34

who has interviewed the president twice during

14:37

his presidency, I have to say, Howard

14:39

Stern, that was the best interview I

14:41

have heard with President Biden. Ankish, I'm

14:43

gonna get back to the New York

14:46

trial. We're now a week into the

14:48

testimony. How is the prosecution doing so

14:50

far and what are you watching for

14:52

in the coming days? I

14:55

mean, the prosecution is doing fine so far. They're

14:58

laying out sort of, again, sort of the early stages

15:00

of this story. The catch and kill, Stormy

15:03

Daniels really did have this relationship. Now

15:05

the bankers understand talking about the mechanics of

15:07

the payments, this and that. And

15:10

there's the common metaphor that prosecutors use is they're

15:12

building a case brick by brick, right? They want

15:14

a wall of evidence at the end. And

15:17

so they're dropping bricks. And

15:20

so the pieces of evidence in isolation may

15:22

not seem that fascinating to us, but

15:24

they're building a wall. Now, whether that all lead

15:27

up to conviction remains to be seen. But

15:29

it's hard for me to render any kind

15:31

of serious verdict on this week because they

15:33

haven't really gotten to the main event yet,

15:36

which is not just Michael

15:38

Cohen, whatever he testifies, but also there's

15:40

gonna need to be

15:42

some evidence, ideally, that Trump himself

15:45

actually was aware that the way the payments were booked may

15:48

have been unlawful, right? It's not gonna be

15:50

enough to just say, because the hush money

15:52

payment is not illegal by itself, nor are

15:55

all the machinations that Michael Cohen went through

15:57

to pay her, right? What is illegal? allegedly

16:00

illegal, is how those payments were booked internally within

16:02

the Trump organization. And we haven't gotten to that

16:05

yet. And so that's what

16:07

I'm really waiting for to see. Because

16:09

if the evidence on that score about, you

16:11

know, Trump's knowledge about the legal

16:13

implications is going to come exclusively from Michael

16:15

Cohen, that is going to be a major

16:18

Achilles heel for this case. John,

16:21

Eugene, Ankish, thank you all very much

16:23

for being here tonight. And when we

16:25

come back with campus unrest ramping up

16:27

around the country, we get into the

16:29

politics of it all during an election

16:31

year. And later, Amazon has

16:33

worked its way in all of our daily

16:35

lives, from the packages at your doorstep to

16:38

your doctor's office. We take

16:40

a closer look at its road to domination

16:43

and how it's changed our economy. The

16:45

11th hour just getting underway on a

16:47

Friday night. Protests

16:57

over the war in Gaza are

16:59

spreading across college campuses nationwide. According

17:01

to NPR, more than 500 demonstrators

17:04

have been arrested so far. At

17:07

Emory University in Georgia, videos show

17:09

law enforcement using tear gas, handcuffs,

17:11

and even tasers to detain

17:14

everyone from students to professors.

17:16

It's a demonstration of just how passionate these

17:18

college students are about the fate

17:21

of Palestinians suffering in Gaza. But

17:23

does it reflect how young voters

17:25

feel as we get closer to the

17:28

closer to the election? For more, let me welcome

17:31

John de la Volpe, director of

17:33

polling at the Harvard Kennedy School

17:35

Institute of Politics. He's also an

17:38

MSNBC political contributor and former Florida

17:40

Republican Congressman David Jolly. Gentlemen, thank

17:43

you for being here, David. Your

17:45

reaction to the scenes unfolding across

17:47

campuses. Do you find yourself

17:49

searching for true crime podcasts that are different

17:52

from what you're always recommended? Do you want

17:54

to make a real difference in the cases

17:56

that you're following? Well, you're a crime junkie.

17:58

And I'm Ashley Flower. The creator

18:00

and host of the number one

18:02

true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. There

18:04

are hundreds of episodes already available and

18:07

each Monday we dive into the

18:09

details of cases spanning from some of

18:11

the most infamous to those that you

18:13

have never heard covered before. Listen to

18:16

Crime Junkie podcast now wherever you're

18:18

listening. Whether you're

18:20

a morning person or a bedtime procrastinator,

18:22

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their style. And you'll find the best

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Shop the all new temper adapt collection at

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Ashley in store or online at ashley.com. Ashley

18:47

for the love of home. Yeah,

18:52

Jonathan, look in October Hamas

18:54

attacked Israel killing over 1200

18:57

people taking several hundred hostages,

18:59

including American citizens. And

19:02

I don't think there's anything that Joe Biden

19:04

could do that would change how Netanyahu executes

19:06

the war. I think that's the reality

19:09

of our politics. What is also true

19:11

is that domestically we

19:14

have a shift among our current

19:17

alliances with Israel, particularly within the

19:19

Democratic Party. And that's okay. The

19:21

questioning of our current posture.

19:23

And look, I think a lot of

19:25

grace has to be given for the

19:27

exercise of independent thought on college campuses

19:29

and for free speech. And

19:31

we also have to recognize that students,

19:34

particularly Jewish students, have to

19:36

be protected in this moment. It

19:39

is okay to recognize that Israel will

19:41

continue to execute this war while also

19:43

recognizing the concerns and speech of young

19:45

voters in the United States. Those two

19:47

things can coexist. Nothing is easy in

19:49

this moment. What

19:52

I do think is is kind of

19:54

untoward and awful is the

19:56

manipulation of politicians of 18,

19:58

19, 20 year olds on college campuses. campuses.

20:00

Republican or Democratic, be what

20:02

they may, stay out of this

20:04

free speech debate going on on college campuses.

20:07

And David, and to that point, I

20:10

mean, House Speaker Mike Johnson visited Columbia

20:12

University amid the protests, but his trip

20:14

was met with hostility from folks on

20:16

and off campus. So given what you

20:18

just said, does this just add fuel

20:20

to the fire? Yeah, it

20:22

does. It's cheap politics. It's absolutely cheap politics.

20:25

These are kids, right? I mean, look, when

20:27

you get a little bit of gray hair,

20:29

you can recognize grace given to students. When

20:31

I was a student, I exercised free speech

20:34

in a lot of political areas and in

20:36

places that maybe I regret or I don't.

20:38

And it's okay. Some of the most passionate

20:40

movements in in domestic politics have been led

20:43

by students. And we should recognize that and

20:45

embrace that. Let these college communities be college

20:47

communities. So the national politicians stay out of

20:49

it. It's cheap shots. Okay. We know where

20:52

the geopolitics stand between the United States,

20:54

Israel and the Middle East. We also

20:56

know that we want to raise up

20:58

college kids who are willing and and

21:00

able to exercise their very strong voices.

21:02

That's okay. You don't have to be

21:04

threatened if you're Mike Johnson or Marjorie

21:06

Taylor Green or Matt Gaetz. Let college

21:08

kids be college kids and let these

21:10

campuses work it out. My opinion.

21:13

Sorry, John. Here, here. Well,

21:15

don't apologize. I'm agree. There's

21:18

two votes for that. I concur.

21:20

So, John, this remains a

21:22

difficult issue for the Biden campaign. According

21:24

to your latest poll, Biden leads Trump

21:26

45 percent to 37 percent

21:29

among young voters. But at this point

21:32

in the 2020 election, Biden led by

21:35

23 percent. Is his handling of

21:37

the war in Gaza driving that drop

21:39

in support? I'm

21:42

not sure that you can explain the

21:44

drop in support directly to this issue,

21:46

Jonathan. I think what is clear, you

21:49

know, to echo what David said, that

21:51

strong majorities of young people on and

21:53

off college campuses across this country have

21:56

sympathy for both the Palestinian people as

21:58

well as the Israeli people. Now,

22:00

sympathy doesn't necessarily connect all the way

22:02

to their governments, where they've got far

22:04

less sympathy than the government and the

22:06

leadership there. But young people are calling

22:09

for peace by a five to one

22:11

margin. They're asking for a permanent ceasefire.

22:13

The degree to which President Biden, as

22:15

he did last week, recognizes the

22:18

innocent civilians, the kidnapped

22:20

victims in Israel, but also the Palestinian

22:22

cause, those are the things that will

22:24

connect with younger people. But

22:26

you're right, this race, to me, actually

22:29

looks more like the 2012 race, where President Obama

22:32

had a 13 or

22:35

14-point lead among registered voters to Mitt Romney.

22:37

We know that lead doubled over the course

22:39

of a couple hundred days between the spring

22:41

and the fall, and we'll see if this

22:43

happens again in 2024. Okay,

22:46

I want to pick up on something you just talked

22:48

about. So according to your

22:50

latest poll, 51% of young

22:53

voters support a permanent ceasefire. But

22:56

John, only 2% of respondents cited

22:58

the Israel and Palestine

23:00

conflict as their top

23:03

concern. So what is

23:05

their top priority? That's

23:07

right. That's an open-ended question, John, to

23:10

where they can volunteer anything. Only 2%

23:12

to that conflict. Overwhelmingly, younger

23:14

people telling me, focus groups in the

23:17

Harvard poll and multiple other polls I've

23:19

conducted, the number one concern is the

23:21

cost of living. It's a rate of

23:23

inflation that's affecting, it's adding tremendous amount

23:26

of stress on a daily basis. Another

23:29

poll that I released today that

23:31

was sponsored by Snapshot indicated that 43% of young

23:34

voters feel stressed every single day

23:36

because of the cost of groceries, the

23:39

cost of gas, extend that to the

23:41

cost and access of healthcare, and also

23:43

to housing. It's the economy that is

23:46

driving most of the political

23:48

dialogue among younger people today. This is

23:50

an incredibly important issue, but it pales

23:53

the comparison to concern about inflation today.

23:56

David, let me read a quote from Charles

23:59

Blow. writing in the

24:01

New York Times, I'm quoting here, there

24:03

seems to be a sense in the

24:05

Biden campaign that it can simply wait

24:07

the protesters out, that passions will eventually

24:09

fade and that democratic voters will fall

24:11

in line when we get closer to

24:13

election day and the choice between Biden

24:15

and Donald Trump becomes more stark. That

24:17

is a reckless gamble. It is interesting to

24:20

read that quote after what John was just

24:22

talking about, how this reminds him

24:24

of 2012 and

24:26

how folks did come back home.

24:28

So do you agree with John or

24:30

do you agree with Charles Blow? Yeah,

24:35

so look, it's early, right? It's

24:37

easy to imagine a world in

24:39

which by the time we get

24:41

to the Democratic National Convention, the

24:43

protests have really taken over the

24:45

thematics of the convention and concerns

24:47

over Joe Biden's foreign policy. But

24:49

what we do know across all

24:51

crosstabs, regardless of demographics, is

24:53

that whether or not the economy

24:55

is moving in the right direction really seems

24:57

to be the most prevalent question, whether you're

24:59

young, old, whether you're a Latino voter, an

25:01

African-American voter or a white rural voter, it's

25:03

about the direction of the economy. And I

25:06

think you also have to look at moments

25:08

like you just showed, Jonathan,

25:10

about Joe Biden's interview with Howard Stern.

25:13

A president willing to talk about his

25:15

contemplation with suicide and in a moment

25:17

of deep darkness for his own personal

25:20

life, whether or not he drove to

25:22

the Delaware Memorial Bridge and took his

25:24

own life, that type of

25:27

authenticity, speaking to any family member,

25:29

young, old, white, black, brown, whatever

25:31

it might be, compared to

25:33

a Donald Trump who exercises grievance politics

25:35

outside of a courtroom in New York.

25:38

Listen, I think young voters are going

25:40

to realize the contrast and say, Joe Biden's

25:42

the president I want come November. The

25:46

only thing I will say to end this segment, David,

25:49

is that you need to get a pair

25:51

of thick frame glasses if you're gonna be

25:53

with this trio the next time we're on.

25:57

David Jolyk, John De La Volpe, thank you all

25:59

both. for coming to the

26:01

show. And when we come back

26:03

from campus protests to Trump dizzying

26:05

days in court, our friend and

26:07

historian John Meacham puts this historic

26:09

week into perspective when the

26:12

11th hour continues. Do

26:21

you think that this

26:23

moment is as ethical

26:27

as we believe it is

26:29

now? I

26:31

think certainly it is. We

26:33

haven't had to confront it before. In

26:36

some ways I think we've taken for granted the

26:40

freedom that we've enjoyed. And so

26:42

I think that the

26:44

message, and again it's up to us, but

26:47

we have to make sure that the lesson

26:49

of this moment when historians

26:51

look back will be that

26:53

we all met the moment. This

26:57

is an incredibly consequential moment in

26:59

history. Just look at what happened

27:01

this week. Witness testimony

27:03

in the first criminal trial of a

27:05

former president began in New York. The

27:08

Supreme Court is considering the scope

27:10

of presidential immunity with regards to

27:12

the former president's attempt to overturn

27:15

the 2020 election. And

27:18

college campuses erupted in protests

27:20

over the Israel-Hamas war. To

27:23

help us contextualize this moment,

27:25

I welcome historian John Meacham.

27:27

He occasionally advises President Biden.

27:30

John, great to see you. A

27:33

former president's alleged crimes have been on

27:35

display in court, and that will continue

27:37

for the coming weeks. We

27:39

use the term unprecedented a

27:41

lot, but as an historian,

27:44

is it? Well,

27:47

it's against my business model to agree with

27:49

you, but I do. It

27:53

is unprecedented. For

27:55

a long time, I thought that what President

27:58

Trump represented and the former president forces

28:00

that he embodied, accelerated and

28:02

deepened, were a difference of

28:05

degree but not of kind.

28:08

That is, that we've dealt with this in the past.

28:11

This is a difference of kind, however,

28:14

the assertion of a president

28:16

being totally above the law,

28:19

as Congresswoman Cheney said in

28:21

that event at the National

28:23

Cathedral this week, we

28:26

do have to meet this moment and

28:28

it requires people who put Constitution above

28:30

party in the way she did in

28:32

a remarkably courageous

28:35

stand. And so,

28:37

you know, as we listen to the

28:39

Supreme Court this week, you listen to

28:41

the court trying to figure out exactly

28:43

how to define presidential power and presidential

28:46

accountability, you see the former

28:48

president in Manhattan submitting to the rule

28:50

of law. As

28:52

you say, there are these, the protests

28:54

that are so resonant of 1968, you have a

28:56

moment where

29:00

so much of what we care

29:02

about, what we should care about

29:05

is at risk. And the,

29:08

what it requires is

29:10

all of us to decide

29:13

what side we're on. And

29:15

what's thrilling about that is it's up to

29:17

us. And what's terrifying about

29:19

it is it's up to us. Right.

29:23

You know, John, give us

29:25

some perspective here, perspective

29:28

on the Supreme Court now

29:31

deciding whether or not a former

29:33

president can be charged for his,

29:36

Trump can be charged for

29:38

his alleged attempt to overturn the 2020 election.

29:44

You know, look, no one, no president had tried to

29:46

do that. This goes to

29:48

your unprecedented point. And one of

29:50

the things, and I urge folks to try

29:52

to listen to the audio of the arguments.

29:55

What's so remarkable about it is a number

29:59

of the conservative. justices didn't want to

30:01

talk about the actual facts of the

30:03

case. That is the context of the

30:06

moment. Why are we having this

30:08

debate? We're not having this debate

30:11

because an American president did something

30:13

in the ordinary course of

30:16

human events, as Jefferson put

30:18

it. We're having this, this

30:20

case, these issues, this fundamental

30:22

crisis of democracy, because for

30:25

the first time, since

30:27

George Washington took the oath in April of 1888, 1789,

30:29

the first time a president tried to

30:34

stop the peaceful transfer of power. And

30:37

because he failed does

30:39

not mean it's not an enduring

30:42

crisis that requires our

30:44

attention. It failed

30:47

because Mike Pence did the right thing. It

30:49

failed because a number of state officials did

30:51

the right thing. And

30:54

our institutions are fragile. They're

30:56

fallible and they

30:58

require human agency. But

31:00

to allow an attempted

31:03

coup d'etat to go

31:05

unaccounted for in

31:08

the courts is, I

31:10

think, in violation of the

31:12

spirit of the rule of law, the

31:15

explicit point of the American Revolution, which

31:17

as Thomas Paine put it, in America,

31:19

people ask who is the king? We

31:21

say the king is the law. John,

31:26

let's turn to the protest sweeping

31:28

college campuses. I know they have

31:30

reached Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee,

31:32

where you live and work. Does

31:35

it bring to mind for you the

31:37

anti-war protests of the 60s? It

31:40

does. I think

31:43

it's, as you

31:45

say, it's an unusual level

31:47

of public

31:49

demonstration around the

31:51

country. I suppose perhaps

31:56

the anti-apartheid protests

31:58

of the of

32:00

the 80s might be on

32:02

this scale. But I think

32:04

you're seeing a number

32:07

of complicated and important

32:10

debates over not

32:13

just the substance of these issues,

32:15

but the style, if you

32:17

will, the means by which

32:20

these protests are being undertaken. And

32:22

I think part of it too is, and

32:26

this is pure speculation on my

32:28

part, but I wonder if part

32:30

of it is that the

32:32

issue, the Middle East question has

32:34

in some ways given

32:37

an entire generation

32:40

that has lived in an era

32:42

in which public action has not

32:44

seemed to deliver. That

32:46

is, if you think about this generation, the

32:48

students I teach, this will make both of

32:51

us feel old, even you, Jonathan, they were

32:53

all born after September 11th. Right.

32:55

Right. And so their lives

32:59

are after September 11th, the

33:01

failure of intelligence on weapons of

33:03

mass destruction, the Great Recession, Donald

33:07

Trump's rise, COVID insurrection.

33:10

And so

33:12

you have this remarkably difficult

33:16

period. It's what makes,

33:18

I think, history so important here is

33:20

that it requires people to tell the

33:23

story of hours when democracy

33:25

did in fact deliver. And

33:27

I think part of this may be a pent

33:30

up kind of frustration

33:33

about the failure of the public

33:35

square to prove itself commensurate to

33:37

the tasks that they believe are

33:39

important. In the 20 seconds

33:41

that we have left then, John, how

33:44

concerned are you that the Democratic convention

33:46

in Chicago in 2024 is

33:49

going to be reminiscent of the 19th, the

33:52

Democratic convention in Chicago in 1968? Very.

33:57

I think 1968. is

34:00

one of those years where everything

34:04

almost fell apart. Dr. King

34:06

is assassinated, Senator Kennedy is assassinated. Something

34:08

like 49 Americans on

34:10

average died every day in Vietnam

34:12

in combat, 49. You

34:16

had the conventions and then on election day,

34:19

Richard Nixon narrowly defeats Hubert Humphrey, but George Wallace

34:21

got 13.5% of the vote and

34:24

carried five states. And

34:26

so it was a similarly chaotic

34:28

time. And I think the convention

34:30

has all of, certainly the

34:33

possibility of being chaotic. And I think

34:35

it's a concern. John

34:37

Meacham, thank you. When

34:40

we come back, the inside story of

34:42

how Amazon grew into one of the

34:44

most powerful and feared companies in the

34:47

world, when the 11th hour

34:49

continues. And I think that's a very

34:51

important part of the world. Love

34:58

it or hate it, Amazon has

35:00

become unavoidable in most of our

35:02

lives, but how did they go

35:04

from an online bookseller to an

35:06

e-commerce giant? Stephanie Ruhle

35:08

sat down with Wall Street Journal

35:10

reporter Dana Matioli to find out.

35:12

She's the author of the new

35:14

book, The Everything War, Amazon's ruthless

35:16

quest to own the world and

35:19

remake corporate power, which is out

35:21

now. Watch. I'm

35:24

so glad you're here because Amazon,

35:27

the trucks, the boxes, the app,

35:29

it is absolutely everywhere. And whether you call

35:31

it ruthless or not, it is

35:34

now almost like an unavoidable, dare I

35:36

say utility. So

35:39

many people's lives, how did we get here? I

35:41

would agree with you. Jeff Bezos set out to

35:43

make this company a daily habit when he launched

35:45

it as a bookstore. And he has more than

35:47

succeeded in that way to the point where it's

35:49

almost unavoidable. Like I'll give you an example.

35:52

If you're taking a Lyft or an Uber, that's powered

35:54

by Amazon Web Services, even if you're not shopping

35:56

with them. While I was reporting

35:58

out this book, bought my doctor's

36:00

office when medical. So their

36:03

tentacles are in every aspect of

36:05

the American economy, American life. And

36:08

even outside of retail, they're one of the

36:10

biggest parcel deliverers in the US, the biggest

36:12

cloud computing platform. They are a healthcare giant.

36:15

They're everywhere. The FTC isn't

36:18

just going after Amazon. They are really

36:20

focused on monopolies, but they

36:22

are going after them over

36:25

the next few years. And it doesn't seem

36:27

like the company cares. Andy Jassy, the new

36:29

CEO, his focus is to grow and grow

36:32

and grow. They've been wildly unfazed by this

36:34

lawsuit, which could result in a breakup of

36:36

the company if the FTC wins. He

36:39

has told his deputies that this could be

36:41

a $10 trillion company. They're about $2 trillion

36:43

right now. So he's saying we're not big

36:45

enough. And there's a scene in the book that I

36:47

think is just really funny where their

36:49

general counsel tells the employees at this all

36:51

hands that haters are going to hate, we're going to shake

36:53

this off. Well, they are

36:56

right. Whether we like it

36:58

or not, they

37:00

are. And it's a question, are we going

37:02

to wake up one day and say, how

37:04

did this happen? Right. Because the model has

37:06

been flood the zone,

37:08

sell everything and anything and make it

37:10

super cheap. And then for sellers, especially

37:12

small brick and mortar operators, they said,

37:14

you can come here and sell on

37:17

our platform. And once they did that,

37:19

but now everything's getting more

37:21

expensive for the consumers, but also for

37:23

those sellers out there. Yeah,

37:25

it's a bit of a fasting bargain for these

37:27

sellers. They have to be there. Like I speak

37:29

to them all the time and they talk about

37:32

oppressive environments there. Their

37:34

fees are going up, their margins are being

37:36

compressed. And they say, why are you still there?

37:38

And they say, we have to be there. This is for

37:40

40% of all e-commerce is. And because

37:42

Amazon has all the power in this scenario,

37:44

the dynamic is Amazon holds all the cards.

37:48

They could raise all the fees on these sellers

37:50

and they pass them on to us. They have

37:52

to raise their prices. And that's what the FTC

37:54

is alleging in this lawsuit that we are paying

37:56

higher prices because Amazon holds all the cards. So

37:59

is this Jeff Bezos' plan all along, right?

38:01

Like the quiet part out loud, this was

38:03

the plan and now we're living in it.

38:05

And it's potentially too late to

38:07

unwind it. And people have been

38:09

raising the alarms about this for a long

38:11

time. If you look at Amazon's competitor base,

38:13

you know, they're one of few companies that

38:15

is a market leader across many segments. And

38:19

I've spoken to many CEOs over time that have

38:21

lobbied in Washington saying this company has too many

38:23

advantages. They have a person to pay sales tax

38:25

or they're doing other things that we cannot compete

38:28

with. And now it's all really come to roost.

38:30

But here's the thing we could

38:32

say right now that in theory we don't like it.

38:35

But I bet there's going to be Amazon

38:37

boxes outside your house tomorrow. And I assure

38:39

you, they'll be outside mine. And we talk

38:41

about how it's wiping out small businesses. When

38:43

you go to small towns, they don't have

38:45

a pizzeria and a dress shop because they

38:48

can't find the labor force because

38:50

people want to work at an Amazon warehouse

38:52

because the pay is better and the benefits

38:54

are better. So as much as we're complaining

38:56

about it, is this the new

38:58

world we're living in? And most likely,

39:00

you ain't going anywhere. Yeah, I would

39:02

say that Americans definitely have a reliance

39:04

on this company in a way that has

39:06

hurt their main streets, that has hurt

39:09

some of the smaller businesses trying to compete.

39:11

And that's the funny part of this is

39:13

when I speak to consumers, they could understand

39:15

where Amazon might be pushing

39:18

the boundaries on competitive tactics, but they

39:20

love their prime. So this is

39:22

catch 22. What was

39:24

your biggest surprise? Because here is

39:26

this behemoth that's in our daily

39:28

lives. And there may be things

39:30

we don't know about it that we should. Yeah,

39:33

I discovered a pattern of really predatory behavior

39:35

at the company that's driven by a very

39:37

cutthroat culture. You know, people

39:40

do what they can to stay ahead

39:42

to keep their jobs. And there's this

39:44

pattern of copying entrepreneurs that they meet

39:46

with their sellers in order to

39:48

reverse engineer their best selling products.

39:51

So Amazon has their own home runs on their

39:53

ends. And that

39:55

has hurt innovation that has hurt these businesses.

39:57

And it means that Amazon is able to

39:59

mine. a really dependent

40:03

space of partners and sellers for

40:05

ideas. They

40:07

won the game. Some might

40:09

say they've already won. Well then

40:12

here's my question. This book, your new book,

40:14

is it being sold on Amazon? It is,

40:17

as of right now. It is being

40:19

sold on Amazon. Sounds like they

40:21

have already won. Congratulations on this

40:23

book. It is a must-read. It is

40:25

really, really important. Dana, thank you so

40:28

much. Thank you for having me. Amazon

40:32

responded to the allegations in

40:34

the book in a statement

40:36

to NBC News, quote, the

40:38

facts show Amazon has made

40:40

shopping easier and more convenient

40:42

for customers, spurred lower prices,

40:44

enabled millions of successful small

40:46

businesses, and significantly increased competition

40:49

in retail. When

40:51

we come back, sipping on success,

40:53

how one town in Wisconsin was

40:56

saved by beer when the

40:58

11th hour continues. Do

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Do you want to make a real difference in the

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42:10

last thing before we go tonight,

42:12

cheers to Potosi. Business competition once

42:14

sent the small rural town of

42:16

Potosi, Wisconsin into decline. But today

42:19

residents are tapping into history to get

42:21

their hometown back on the map. My

42:24

colleague Maggie Vespa brings us the story.

42:27

In the hum of this factory in

42:30

rural Wisconsin lies

42:32

the sound of a small town's

42:34

second wind. This

42:36

story, best told over a pint, begins

42:38

in 1852 with the birth

42:41

of the Potosi Brewing Company,

42:43

a major employer until the

42:45

1970s when competition turned off

42:47

its taps. Almost everybody in Potosi

42:50

had a relative who had one there. Yeah,

42:53

and it was in existence for 120 years.

42:56

Soon Potosi's population plummeted.

42:58

Its brewery crumbled in the 90s going

43:01

up for auction. Local

43:04

artist Gary David bought it for $6,300.

43:08

I'm very fond memory of the forefathers

43:10

that came before us. I really thought

43:12

it was worth the effort and the

43:14

risk. Insurance executive Dave Fritz launched the

43:17

Potosi Foundation to bring the brewery

43:19

back. It was all about the jobs

43:21

to me. A way of keeping a small

43:23

town alive. Yes, absolutely. For

43:27

years they fundraised. In 2008, rebuilding

43:29

the taproom. Then a new factory.

43:31

This facility is capable of packaging

43:33

more than 80 million

43:35

cans per year of Potosi beer, but

43:38

also more than a dozen other beverage

43:40

companies from across the country. Industry

43:42

buzz followed. Potosi's now home

43:44

to the National Brewery Museum

43:47

and annual festivals. Potosi gets

43:49

70,000 tourists a year. Yes,

43:53

yes. That's a lot of people. A lot of

43:55

people. The

44:00

Taste of a Town's

44:02

Comeback Maggie Vespa, NBC News.

44:04

Well cheers. Cheers. Petosi,

44:07

Wisconsin. Cheers to

44:09

Petosi. And on that note, I wish you

44:11

a good night. Remember, you can catch me

44:13

every weekend on the Saturday show and the

44:16

Sunday show at 6 p.m.

44:18

Eastern right here on MSNBC. Ari

44:21

Melber is up next with a look back

44:23

at Trump's criminal trial today. From

44:26

all of our colleagues across the networks

44:28

of NBC News, thanks for staying up

44:30

late. See you this weekend. From

44:41

Freakonomics Radio, a new series about

44:43

a role model we didn't know

44:45

we needed. So

44:47

many crazy things really did

44:49

happen to him. The

44:52

physicist Richard Feynman was one of the

44:54

most brilliant scientists of his generation, but

44:56

he was also a troublemaker,

44:58

an obsessive, and

45:00

a man who spoke truth to power. Along

45:03

the way, he created a blueprint

45:06

for how to lead a life of

45:08

honest inquiry. He was a brilliant

45:10

theoretical physicist, but what really made him stand out was

45:12

his humanity. The

45:14

curious, brilliant, vanishing Mr. Feynman

45:17

on Freakonomics Radio. Thank

45:21

you.