0:01

Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing

0:03

Podcast. I'm Kate Moore-Yousuf and I'm

0:05

a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT

0:08

practitioner, mom to four kids and

0:11

passionate about helping more women to

0:13

understand and accept their amazing ADHD

0:15

brains. After

0:18

speaking to many women just like me and probably

0:20

you, I know there is

0:22

a need for more health and lifestyle

0:24

support for women newly diagnosed with ADHD.

0:27

In these conversations you'll learn from

0:29

insightful guests, hear new findings and

0:32

discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools

0:35

to enable you to live your most fulfilled,

0:37

calm and purposeful life wherever

0:39

you are on your ADHD

0:41

journey. Here's today's episode.

0:48

Today I'm delighted to

0:51

welcome two fantastic psychotherapists.

0:53

Their names are Katie McKenna

0:56

and Helen Villiers and

0:58

they co-host the successful fantastic

1:00

Insight Podcast where I've learned

1:03

so much about

1:05

narcissism and parentification. Now

1:07

they have just written a brilliant new

1:09

book called You're Not the Problem, the

1:11

impact of narcissism and emotional abuse and

1:14

how to heal. I'm delighted to have

1:16

them here because we're really going to

1:18

delve into a fascinating conversation about

1:21

understanding perhaps our childhood,

1:23

understanding the way we've been and

1:26

being able to decipher where some of

1:28

our trauma has come from. Katie and

1:30

Helen, I am so excited to have

1:32

this conversation with you. It's been a

1:34

long time coming and I

1:36

know that the listeners of this podcast

1:38

will be fascinated because these

1:41

conversations come up a lot. We're

1:43

going to be talking about parentification,

1:46

narcissism, emotional unavailability,

1:49

family dysfunction,

1:51

trauma. It's a

1:53

conversation that happens with all my clients and

1:56

there's a common thread that so many people

1:58

who are being diagnosed with ADHD. later

2:00

on in life, also navigating

2:02

childhood trauma. And

2:04

you know, this is going to be a

2:06

nuanced conversation. You are both highly experienced psychotherapist.

2:09

So I feel we're in very, very good

2:11

hands here. So first of all, welcome to

2:13

the podcast. It's a nice to have you

2:16

here. Thank you. We're gonna, I

2:18

thought maybe we can get some of the lingo

2:20

out the way so we can sort of just

2:22

bed in because some people haven't gone through therapy.

2:25

And they don't understand these words that

2:27

I hear on your podcast, I hear

2:29

on your fantastic social media channels.

2:31

So can we begin with

2:34

maybe just breaking down what

2:36

you see narcissism or

2:38

how you would describe narcissism? Because

2:41

for me, I always thought

2:43

it was incredibly extreme. If you

2:45

were almost like a psychopath. And

2:48

actually, that's not true, is it? Okay,

2:50

so narcissistic personality

2:52

disorder, there's a number

2:54

of traits that we look for when diagnosing

2:56

Katie and I are not qualified to diagnose

2:59

anyone. And we would never attempt to do

3:01

that anyway, whether it's sort of armchair diagnosis

3:03

or whatever. But narcissistic

3:05

personality disorder, when we look at

3:08

over and covert, there are five

3:10

traits that cross those presentations.

3:12

The five main traits are

3:14

grandiosity, entitlement, exploitation, motivational

3:17

empathy, which is one that people get

3:19

wrong a lot, because they'll say there's

3:21

a complete lack of empathy. And it's

3:23

not that there's motivational empathy, and

3:26

then impaired self awareness. So we

3:28

have those five main traits. And

3:31

what people do often is

3:33

exactly what you do and think that the somebody

3:36

who is MPD is like a

3:38

psychopath, like the Ted Bundy type person

3:40

who was a diagnosed someone

3:43

who was diagnosed with empathy. So

3:46

the problem with that is that

3:48

the only the extreme cases get

3:50

bought to general population

3:53

attention, because they're so

3:55

extreme, and they come with them these

3:57

awful, awful behaviors, such as murdering and

3:59

killing. However,

4:02

it is absolutely a spectrum, just

4:04

as it is with any other

4:06

kind of ADHD autism

4:08

neurodivergence, MPD is

4:11

a huge spectrum and someone could be

4:13

diagnosable but mild and

4:15

diagnosable and the Ted Bundy extreme and

4:18

then everything else in between. So

4:21

it's a really important understanding

4:23

to have that also

4:25

prevalence being a big thing that people go, oh

4:27

my God, it's really rare, it's not that rare.

4:30

The prevalence is thought to be about 0.5 to 1.6% of

4:33

the general population, which sounds low

4:36

but is actually extremely high when you start

4:38

thinking about it. And then

4:41

on top of that, that statistic is

4:43

thought to be flawed simply because people

4:45

who have MPD are not going to

4:47

put themselves in way of assessment. They

4:49

are only assessed when it's ordered by

4:52

a court or some kind of psychiatric

4:55

breakdown so basically they

4:57

will do everything including avoiding sort

4:59

of street surveys that might show

5:01

whether or not they've got narcissistic

5:03

traits because, and here's the thing,

5:05

they are aware, they know that

5:08

they are different. So yeah, that's

5:11

MPD in a fairly large nutshell,

5:13

sorry. Yeah,

5:15

it's fascinating because you're saying they are aware but

5:17

then we kind of think they're not aware. And

5:19

so do they choose where

5:21

they bring that awareness and would

5:25

they outwardly, I don't know, do

5:27

they outwardly want to heal or is it just

5:29

a no-no, like they're just happy with who they

5:31

are? Well, it's everybody else's problem and

5:33

not theirs. If you've got a problem with

5:35

it, especially somebody who is more covert presenting

5:37

will be dismissive of any concerns about, I

5:40

think you've got MPD, well say what, it's

5:42

got me to where I am now. If

5:44

you've got a problem with my behaviour, that's

5:46

your problem, not mine. And someone who is

5:48

more covert presenting will be like, how could

5:50

you say that about me but never look

5:52

at why someone might say that. So

5:55

no, there's not a willingness to accept that there's

5:57

anything wrong with their behaviour but they do know

5:59

that they're not. that they use those

6:01

behaviors because don't forget they know how to

6:03

hide it and they know how to Only

6:06

use it on people who they can use

6:09

it on so the

6:11

manipulation side. Yeah, okay

6:14

So there's that and then I wanted to talk about

6:17

Parentification as well. Well, maybe you can explain

6:19

what Parentification is and then we can start

6:22

sort of like bringing in lots of the

6:24

many notes that I've got written down Okay,

6:27

well there's three different types of

6:29

Parentification and there's emotional and instrumental

6:32

we'll start with them an emotional

6:34

Parentification is where the parent treats

6:36

the child as their confidant as

6:39

their mini therapist as their best

6:41

friend And that's often what we hear

6:43

the child say, you know me and my mother

6:45

or me than my father We were so close.

6:47

We were two peas in a pod and they

6:49

told me everything I was to go between within

6:51

the relationship and That is

6:53

the parent leaning on the child emotionally. It's

6:55

really damaging It's really destructive to the child

6:57

and a lot of the times the child

7:00

will think that they are Complicit

7:02

and have given consent to that

7:04

because they've asked the parent, you

7:07

know, mommy. Why are you crying or daddy? You know, why

7:09

are you why are you not speaking to mom? And

7:12

this is where the parent is supposed to hold

7:14

boundaries and say, you know This

7:16

is between me and your mother and not involve

7:18

the child. Whereas the child will actually think that

7:20

they are Consenting to this and

7:22

they can't this is where the parents should hold

7:25

boundaries and not lean emotionally on the child Instrumental

7:28

parentification is when I think Helen

7:30

calls it Cinderella syndrome Yeah, just

7:33

imagine that Cinderella going around cooking

7:35

cleaning raising their other siblings, you

7:37

know doing Chores that

7:40

are not age-appropriate because it's very important

7:42

that your child, you know tidies up

7:44

after themselves But this

7:46

will be where the child is responsible for

7:48

paying bills for putting their children to bed

7:50

cooking dinners Getting their children at to school

7:53

essentially being a mini mother the important thing

7:55

being about them not being able to say

7:57

no Isn't it if they would say I

7:59

don't want to be? babysit my sibling, they

8:01

get horrifically punished, don't they? Yeah,

8:04

it's the absolute conditioning of the child

8:06

that this is how they show love

8:08

is to be observatory to their parents.

8:11

And if they ever say no, they're

8:13

called selfish, self-centred,

8:15

you know, greedy, mean, a

8:18

bad child, essentially. And ultimately, all the

8:20

child wants to do is protect that

8:22

attachment relationship that they have with their

8:24

parents. So they'll do anything that is

8:27

expected to avoid that emotional abandonment. And

8:29

then we have the third, which is narcissistic

8:32

parentification, which is both

8:34

instrumental and emotional parentification combined.

8:36

But it's that plus the

8:38

parent is projecting a

8:40

full image, a full personality on to

8:43

the child. So the child in no

8:45

way will get to be able to

8:47

express themselves, have their own autonomy, have

8:49

their own likes or dislikes. Anything that

8:51

goes against what the parent deems appropriate

8:54

will be seen as a rejection from the

8:56

parent. Okay, wow. That's a

8:58

lot better, isn't it? I

9:01

know, so much information. And

9:04

you can see how, you know, conversation

9:06

will be so nuanced, because you might

9:08

be able to pluck out different ways

9:11

that you've been parented or your childhood

9:13

that you can see. And

9:15

everyone has such unique experiences and

9:17

such unique childhoods. And then when

9:20

we've got this new

9:22

understanding of our own neurodivergence, and

9:24

perhaps we can see certain qualities

9:26

of this in our parents, and

9:29

perhaps we can see undiagnosed neurodivergence in

9:31

our parents. And it's really

9:33

hard to be able to say, okay, well, what

9:35

was the ADHD? What was the autism? And

9:38

where was this, you know, this parent

9:40

that didn't know better? And

9:42

where do we stop gaslighting

9:45

ourselves and start

9:47

having a validation of that

9:49

was right, that was not right? And

9:52

we should have been parented better? And where

9:54

can we bring maybe some

9:56

compassion and forgiveness? And I find this really

9:59

hard to know. know where that is

10:01

and where we can obviously we all you

10:03

know as adults who want to heal if

10:06

there has been generational trauma, if there has

10:08

been childhood trauma, how do

10:10

we begin that process of healing

10:12

but also you know saying that

10:14

wasn't right and we deserved better?

10:17

It's a very very simple black and white

10:19

thing for me. It doesn't matter if it

10:21

was autism, it doesn't matter if it was

10:23

ADHD, it doesn't matter if it was MPD,

10:25

if it hurt you it hurt you and

10:28

that's the end of it. The only place

10:30

at which we start offering compassion is where

10:32

the parent accepts responsibility for how they might

10:34

have hurt us and then

10:36

we can say thank you for the apology if

10:39

they give the apology that is. If they

10:41

accept responsibility, if they apologize and ask how

10:43

they can atone for it then

10:46

we can maybe start moving towards

10:48

compassion and forgiveness but when

10:50

it's MPD there is not going to be

10:53

that. That won't happen. So if we're talking

10:55

about someone who is MPD and ADHD

10:57

and autistic or either, that

11:01

doesn't matter. The ADHD and autism

11:03

don't matter in there. What you're

11:05

talking about I think is having

11:07

compassion for our own selves as

11:09

neurodivergent ADHD autistic people who might

11:12

make mistakes as parents or

11:14

people that do look similar

11:16

to the MPD parent and

11:19

actually the differences of course that

11:21

you accept responsibility, you look at how

11:24

you can heal however you hurt somebody

11:26

and change your behavior so that you

11:28

manage your impact on others in a

11:30

positive way not to the point where

11:32

you are hiding or shaming or silencing

11:34

yourself but I think it's

11:37

and maybe this is my ADHD, it's really

11:39

black and white. The other thing

11:41

I just want to point out which is

11:43

something that's quite controversial and people in the

11:46

ND community find quite difficult is

11:48

that MPD counts as

11:50

a neurodivergence because neurodivergence is

11:52

any brain type that is

11:55

different to neurotypical and so

11:57

we have to be really careful

11:59

with our terminology that when we're

12:01

talking about neurodivergence, we are actually

12:03

including MPD in that anyway. CPTSD,

12:06

we're talking about schizophrenia, we're talking

12:08

about loads of different brain types

12:10

that operate differently to neurotypical brains.

12:13

So just wanted to kind of pop

12:15

that in as well but I think what is

12:17

really important is it doesn't matter

12:20

why someone hurt you, it

12:22

matters that they hurt you, it doesn't

12:24

matter why we justify the reason behind

12:26

that, it's that they hurt you. So

12:29

when we start looking for reasons

12:31

or understanding as to why they

12:33

hurt us, that just gaslights us

12:35

more and doesn't allow us to

12:38

own what happened to us as

12:40

seriously as it did. So yeah,

12:42

for me it's very simple, it doesn't

12:44

matter whether it was ADHD, autism, MPD

12:46

or anything else, it hurt

12:48

you and therefore it hurt and someone

12:50

has to take responsibility for that, then

12:53

we start looking at the nuance of MPD

12:56

ADHD autism, which for me actually there isn't

12:58

a nuance, it's very black and white, very

13:01

clear sorry, but we

13:04

look at where people take responsibility

13:06

for their behaviour and acknowledge

13:08

the impact that they've had. It's really

13:11

interesting you say that is acknowledging

13:13

the impact, it's taking responsibility and

13:15

when there's a victim sort of like mentality

13:18

of well I had it really

13:20

hard or things were really difficult and

13:22

you don't know what I went through when I

13:24

was parenting you and they sort of put that

13:26

back on you, that we should

13:29

have understood as a child, like we should have been

13:31

more, we should have just been able to just accept

13:33

that that's just the way it was. At

13:35

what point does a child

13:39

who's older now, can we ever get past

13:43

that older parents victim like mentality

13:45

where they won't claim responsibility or

13:47

they still believe that

13:49

their resources were limited and that's

13:51

the way they could parent you,

13:54

how would you suggest someone who is

13:57

on that, they're doing the work, they're

13:59

getting they're becoming more self-aware themselves. They're

14:01

reading the books. They're listening to podcasts like

14:03

yours and like this. But

14:05

this part of them just can't heal because

14:08

they haven't had that validation from the parents.

14:11

So I suppose you mentioned that there, one of the

14:13

things that me and Helen really try to do, the

14:15

whole purpose of our podcast, and actually in the book,

14:17

is educating people, the psychoeducation part

14:19

on what is abuse. And what I'm

14:22

hearing you talk about there is motivational

14:24

empathy. When somebody is sitting in their

14:26

victim's space, so in this instance, imagine

14:28

it's the mother sitting in their victim's

14:30

space when their child is coming to

14:32

them saying, when you do X,

14:35

Y, or Z, it hurts me. And

14:37

the mother is gaslighting them,

14:39

denying, minimizing, dismissing their experience,

14:41

but is also trying to elicit the

14:44

child's empathy, trying to make them feel guilty because

14:46

you don't know how bad I've had it. It's

14:48

been so hard for me. And

14:50

the mother is centering themselves, making

14:52

it all about themselves, but

14:55

is trying to elicit that empathy from the

14:57

child to make the child feel sorry for

14:59

the mother. So they'll end up apologizing or

15:01

saying, oh my God, and it has been

15:03

so bad for you. So again, this is

15:05

where the parent is emotionally prentifying the child,

15:08

putting their burdens on the child.

15:11

And ultimately it's to avoid that

15:13

accountability and responsibility. It's instead

15:16

of them turning around and saying, you're right, I did that,

15:18

and that was wrong. How can I do

15:20

it different next time? What do you need from me? How

15:22

can I make amends? Obviously this hurts

15:24

you and I'm sorry, and I want to do better.

15:28

How can I make it up to you? This is

15:30

the parent wants to absolutely avoid that because they want

15:32

to avoid changing their behavior at all costs, and

15:34

they want to manipulate the child. And

15:37

this is where it's really hard for people to

15:39

actually see that, to remove that denial, that

15:41

this is intentional to avoid that

15:44

accountability and responsibility, to manipulate the child,

15:46

to make the child feel sorry for

15:48

the parent, to put that weight of

15:50

emotional responsibility on the child. And that's

15:53

what's damaging. And when we educate our

15:55

clients, and ultimately then through the podcast,

15:57

and with the book, which is called.

16:00

you're not the problem. And when people

16:02

are able to be empowered then to

16:04

recognize this, to not fall for it,

16:06

to not fall for the manipulation and

16:08

to recognize what they're doing, which is

16:11

putting up barriers and deflecting and again

16:13

avoiding that responsibility. Would you mind

16:15

explaining just breaking down motivational empathy so people can

16:17

really understand what it's like? Yeah,

16:19

absolutely. Motivational empathy is where your

16:22

empathy is recognised against you. So

16:24

it's using fear, obligation and guilt to

16:26

make you behave in a way

16:28

that is against your desire, you'll want your

16:30

need, but to meet the should. So I should

16:32

do this thing or I should go home for

16:35

Christmas otherwise my mother gets upset and I just

16:37

don't want to make her feel bad and I

16:39

let a little bit. So

16:41

motivational empathy is making you feel

16:43

bad for holding a boundary, for

16:45

calling out a behaviour, for holding

16:47

accountability, for desiring

16:50

to meet your need over theirs and

16:52

it's using your empathy

16:54

to silence you essentially. Can

16:57

we give even a wee example of

16:59

that? So for example financially if I

17:01

was to use motivational empathy on UK

17:04

or Helen I might say, oh I have

17:08

no money to pay my bills

17:10

on Saturday, I have a big

17:12

electricity bill and I have no

17:15

money. I'm going to pause giving

17:17

you space, hopefully that you will

17:19

rescue me. So I'm wondering

17:21

for your listeners or even UKs sitting in

17:24

that space or if I said, oh

17:26

I have no babysitter on Saturday night and I have a

17:28

friend and it's a really important party, I really want to

17:30

go to it but I'm not able

17:32

to go because I've known to find the kids. And

17:36

then the answer to that is what are

17:38

you going to do about that rather than jumping

17:41

in to rescue? So there I'm

17:43

trying to elicit your empathy to rescue. So

17:45

I'm avoiding being an adult and asking you

17:47

directly, one can you loan me money or

17:49

two can you mine the children? So I'm

17:51

sitting in that victim space but the other

17:53

place that it can be used as well

17:55

if you're holding me accountable for something. So

17:57

if Helen says Katie when you did that

17:59

thing last week I didn't like it or when

18:01

a child says it to their parent I don't like

18:04

when you call me names I don't like when you

18:06

belittle me oh my god I can't do anything like

18:08

that I'm just the worst parent in the world it's

18:10

just terrible right and

18:12

again what they want is to force the child

18:15

into a place of rescue and mum I didn't

18:17

mean that that's not what I was saying and

18:19

then we're deflecting on more

18:21

off point completely. Yeah I

18:23

would love to just add really quickly

18:25

to your original question that our healing

18:28

doesn't lie in an

18:30

apology from somebody our healing lies

18:32

in our own validation of

18:34

ourself our experience our own pain and

18:37

we do not need our abuser to acknowledge

18:39

that they abused us in order for us

18:41

to heal and we do not need to

18:43

forgive our abuser in order for us to

18:45

heal and if we can make sure we

18:48

get that really clear in our minds and

18:50

really embedded in our

18:52

process we've got a much

18:54

higher chance of actually

18:57

healing rather than waiting for someone

18:59

who has absolutely no intention

19:02

whatsoever of saying yes I

19:04

was abusive to you rather

19:06

than waiting for them to do that we can

19:08

say it for ourselves it is enough that we

19:10

know it happened to us we do not need

19:13

our abuser to validate it for us. I

19:16

think that's really powerful because sometimes

19:20

we what most of the time we

19:22

probably won't get that acknowledgement or the

19:24

apology what would you say

19:26

to someone who is still got that person

19:28

in their life and you still see them

19:30

a lot and they're sort of just part

19:32

of the family and your the resentment still

19:34

there and the low lying anger

19:37

that you just can't be in the same room with

19:39

them or when you are in the same room you

19:41

sort of bristle your body just kind of tenses up

19:43

and there isn't much we can

19:45

do about I say you live

19:47

in Australia and you see that parent once a year and

19:49

you can sort of just kind of go about your day

19:51

and then that's it but if that person is part of

19:53

your life a grand a

19:56

grandparent and you know

19:58

they have a good relationship with your children what

20:00

do you do then when you're

20:02

not getting that validation but you still want

20:04

to heal? Wow, there's so

20:06

many parts to that and if I can break

20:08

it down I think into three and then I'll

20:11

bring Helen into adding it. One, what

20:13

I'm hearing is healthy anger, right? So

20:15

anger at the way you've been treated

20:17

and that's valid. For anybody that grows

20:19

up especially with a narcissistic parent, one

20:21

of the emotions that's going to be

20:23

so suppressed is anger, that healthy anger

20:26

because you will be punished, you will

20:28

be stonewalled given the silent treatment, they

20:31

will be aggressive or passive aggressive towards you when

20:33

you're speaking up. So a lot of

20:35

times that fight can be annihilated and a

20:37

lot of the times the child just phones

20:39

and acquiesces to the parent again to keep

20:41

that safety. What I'm hearing

20:43

then different is what you're talking about,

20:45

resentment towards the person. Resentment

20:47

is actually for ourselves to

20:49

show us where we've

20:52

betrayed ourselves. So if I become resentful for

20:54

giving you something, that's okay, if I have

20:56

to give you something again and again and

20:58

I become resentful, it's so easy to think

21:01

that that's about you because you're taking it.

21:03

Whereas actually the resentment is to show up

21:05

to me where have I betrayed myself, where

21:07

should I have used my no and where

21:09

did I not and chances are it's out

21:12

of fear, obligation and guilt. And

21:14

this then leads us on to what you're talking about.

21:16

Well, what if you have no choice and

21:19

that can just feel so disempowering and

21:21

so helpless when we say that we

21:24

don't have a choice in something and

21:26

I hear you saying, God, imagine if

21:28

this parent lived in Australia and then

21:30

they never have to face that difficult

21:33

decision in saying no or not attending

21:35

something because recognizing

21:38

that we have a choice in the situation,

21:40

when we say we don't have a choice,

21:42

it's really saying that I don't want to

21:44

accept the consequences of making this difficult choice.

21:47

If I say no, for example, of going

21:49

through a function, what is the consequences going

21:51

to be for me in that? How am

21:53

I going to be punished? And I might

21:56

want to avoid that and that's valid. So

21:58

therefore I will acquiesce and then. go

22:00

to the function. But even in that, if

22:02

I go to the function, I still have

22:04

choice around that. How long do I stay?

22:07

How do I engage? How do I, for

22:09

example, gray rock and not give all these

22:11

people information about me? So how do I

22:13

hold my boundaries then in that space? In

22:17

that it's acknowledging that I do have a

22:19

choice not to go, but

22:22

it's recognizing the punishment that will be received

22:24

in that. And even as I'm saying that,

22:26

if you're going to be punished for saying

22:28

no, well then you're in

22:30

an abusive relationship. You're being silenced in

22:32

that moment that you don't get to

22:34

have autonomy and get a choice to

22:36

say, I don't want to attend the

22:38

thing. And again, it's

22:40

recognizing and fully acknowledging how somebody

22:42

responds to your no. Yeah,

22:47

yeah. When we are talking about all

22:49

of this, and you know, we look

22:51

through that lens of, neurodivergence

22:54

as well, we

22:56

hear a lot of dysfunction, chaos,

22:58

addiction, and lots of things

23:02

that we look back on and we see a huge

23:04

amount of physical lack of awareness, self-awareness,

23:07

but also general awareness where

23:10

we may just, all this sort

23:12

of psychological all

23:16

these terminologies and what we know

23:18

now from social media, from even

23:20

your amazing social media post

23:23

from your podcast, now your book, you

23:25

know, that awareness wasn't there even 10,

23:27

15 years ago. So

23:30

we're sort of this new generation of, you

23:32

know, understanding and learning about

23:34

these terminologies and really picking them.

23:36

And when we put it to

23:38

the older generation, say, and saying

23:40

things like parentification,

23:43

toxicity, narcissism, gaslighting,

23:45

emotional and availability, it's

23:48

almost like speaking a different language, isn't it?

23:50

So do you think that in

23:53

a way it's really good for us,

23:55

this generation who are really understanding themselves

23:57

psychologically and understanding and able to praise

23:59

you? certain childhoods, but

24:02

in a way it is difficult because we're working

24:04

with an older generation who

24:06

aren't understanding, who don't want it,

24:08

you know, they, therapy still to them is

24:10

like, oh what do I need to go

24:12

to therapy for? You know, why would I

24:14

want to unpick my childhood? You know, that's

24:16

just pain and trauma that I don't

24:18

need to go with and so we're

24:20

in this kind of sticky situation of

24:22

fantastic, we've got all this in but

24:25

awareness but then still how can

24:27

we, we can't have those difficult

24:29

conversations or it feels hard to have those

24:31

difficult conversations and even though we're boundaries, you

24:33

know, we think about boundaries is what you

24:35

mean, talking about boundaries all the time and

24:38

it's almost like we need one more

24:40

generation so we can understand

24:43

things better together. Does that make sense,

24:46

that question? Yeah, but I think what

24:48

we have to be really careful of is

24:50

ignorance and weaponized ignorance because

24:52

it's one thing to not understand that

24:55

when it was normal in the 80s

24:57

to like, I don't know, leave

24:59

your children feral all day and

25:02

then just like feed them occasionally,

25:04

whatever, like it's one thing

25:06

to kind of

25:08

have done what was the norm

25:10

for the era and it's

25:12

another thing to have done what was norm

25:15

for the era and then completely deny that

25:17

it had any negative impact on the child

25:19

that that grew up in it because even

25:21

I now as I

25:23

know I'm a psychotherapist and I've got

25:25

all these qualifications and experience and understanding

25:27

can look back at parenting my 15

25:30

year old and think about how

25:32

I parented him as a small child

25:35

and that I would do things differently and

25:37

I can accept responsibility and know that there

25:39

are things that maybe I did that have

25:41

had a negative impact on him even

25:44

though I was operating out of

25:46

what was either normal or the

25:48

best of intentions I can still

25:50

accept that even though I had

25:52

all those good intentions it maybe

25:54

wasn't helpful for him and it's

25:56

had a negative impact. So

25:59

we have to look at there's ignorance and weaponized ignorance.

26:01

When someone's just like, well, it's all changed and

26:03

I don't understand it. Well, that's

26:05

not true, is it? Because it was

26:07

the same for the generation before them.

26:09

They're previous generation. I always talk about

26:12

this subject with likening it to rock

26:14

and roll, right? So

26:16

in the 50s, rock and

26:18

roll became really trendy, didn't it? But it was

26:21

seen as a sinful thing and it had this

26:23

very negative thing and those that

26:25

the teenagers of the time were like,

26:27

oh my God, Elvis Presley, he's amazing.

26:30

And there was all this uproar about this and

26:32

that and then the Beatles came along and those

26:34

generations were like, you don't understand to

26:36

the parents. And they will tell you,

26:38

well, you don't understand what it was like growing up in my

26:40

era. We had rock and roll and it was like this, that

26:42

and the other. But

26:45

they do understand progression of society.

26:47

They do understand progression of understanding.

26:49

And yes, they may sit in

26:52

the, I don't wanna look back at

26:54

my trauma and pick all of that. But

26:56

again, that doesn't mean they get to deny how

27:00

they've impacted their children, even if it was normal.

27:02

And the other thing I want to say about

27:04

that is we did know quite a lot about

27:06

attachment at this point. We did, in the 80s,

27:08

70s, 60s, it

27:11

wasn't as widely spoken about

27:13

but there were parenting books around that talked about

27:15

it and there were schools

27:18

of thought and psychology was a

27:20

thing and like, this is not

27:22

new understanding that we traumatize children

27:24

by doing these things to them.

27:26

It's a wider understanding thanks to social media

27:28

and it's kind of being shoved down people's

27:30

throats and they don't really get a choice

27:32

from it but people like

27:34

me and Katie. But the

27:37

idea that they had absolutely no awareness

27:39

of how they impacted their child on

27:41

a wider scale is somewhat

27:43

true but also could be argued

27:45

false. But on a micro scale,

27:48

if a child stands in front of you and

27:50

says, I don't like it when you do this

27:52

thing to me and you go, oh, stop

27:55

whinging you little brat. You

27:58

know you are being harmful. You

28:00

know you are putting your needs before

28:02

the child, you are silencing the child,

28:04

you are making them feel bad because

28:06

the other thing is so

28:09

often what they said to

28:11

their children they would never say to

28:13

another adult and yet

28:15

it was acceptable to say to children. Right?

28:18

So the idea that they

28:20

don't know what they are doing is

28:22

so easily disproven. It's also in studies,

28:24

Miller-Campbell and Pilkonos 2007, prove

28:27

that there is an awareness and

28:29

an intent to harm. Right? The

28:31

MPD is differentiated from other custody

28:33

personality disorders by the very fact

28:35

that they have an intent to

28:37

harm significant others. So look

28:40

at when we start using

28:42

language that's sanitized, we start

28:44

removing accountability and responsibility. We

28:46

start silencing as Katie said and

28:49

gaslighting the victims of that abuse by

28:51

using this sanitized version. It's the

28:54

same as we used to call

28:56

PTSD shell shock but we moved

28:59

further and further away from

29:01

the idea that PTSD happens

29:04

because you've experienced this terrible

29:06

shocking trauma. Right? So

29:09

yeah, the idea that

29:12

we call it something like

29:14

emotionally immature and therefore infantilize

29:16

them from removing responsibility from

29:18

them. Right? It

29:21

gaslights and silences the victims. Here's this parent

29:23

that you just have to learn how to

29:25

cope with and accept because that's the way

29:27

they are and there's nothing you can do about

29:29

it. And if you can't accept that it

29:31

means you're emotionally immature and therefore you are the

29:34

problem. You're not. You are

29:36

not the problem. The problem is that

29:38

these people grew up in systemic trauma,

29:40

which is dates back. I mean,

29:42

I could go on and on about why it's here

29:44

and everything else. I'm not going to. But they

29:47

grew up in systemic trauma that was

29:49

normalized to their generation and have then

29:51

therefore passed it on. That

29:54

is terrible. And it's not their fault that they grew

29:56

up in that and we can have compassion for that

29:58

trauma, but it is their response. and it doesn't

30:00

mean we have to tolerate the behavior. And

30:03

those are really, really important

30:05

things to accept and

30:07

absorb in terms of our healing,

30:09

in terms of facing the reality,

30:13

and exposing the denial, turning that light

30:15

on, seeing how traumatized we

30:17

actually are, and stop gaslighting

30:21

ourselves and other victims, because

30:23

it doesn't matter that they

30:25

experience trauma, and it doesn't

30:27

matter that they're emotionally immature.

30:30

What matters is they hurt you, and that's it.

30:32

Yeah. And that was,

30:34

you just answered my question because I wanted to

30:36

know, is it nature or nurture? Oh, look,

30:38

I could go in for like years

30:40

about this, because like, obviously this was

30:42

part of the master's part. Nature

30:45

and nurture, largely it's thought to

30:47

be nurture. There is a lot

30:49

of evidence that shows, there's two

30:52

schools of thoughts, lots of evidence

30:54

that shows it's a severe attachment

30:56

disorder, growing up in trauma, there's

30:58

potentially a genetic element, but that

31:00

hasn't actually been established yet. It's

31:02

just being explored. And yeah, so

31:04

largely though, it's trauma, where a

31:07

child experiences extreme physical,

31:09

sexual, emotional abuse,

31:11

neglect, or,

31:13

and this is really important, smothering,

31:16

because that's why the golden child becomes the

31:18

narcissist. You know, so yeah, it's

31:20

generally thought to be trauma, but of course we

31:22

have to leave room for the idea that there's

31:25

a genetic element to it too. Yeah,

31:27

exactly what you said, you know, sadly there's this

31:30

trauma, but it's taking that responsibility to

31:32

do the work on themselves and to heal

31:34

and to have that self-awareness to not pass

31:36

it on to the next generation. Yeah,

31:39

exactly, which is what you're doing, right?

31:41

Because you're exploring yourself, increasing your self-awareness,

31:43

you're trying to take responsibility. That's what

31:46

Katie and I have done, is gone

31:48

to therapy, done all this work, continually,

31:50

we hold each other accountable, all the

31:52

time and we challenge and conflict, but

31:54

in a very healthy way, not shouting

31:56

and screaming. And That's

31:59

because. We want to be. Better.

32:02

People in better relationships, better

32:04

parents and responsible for our

32:06

behavior or not pass our

32:08

trauma onto our children. Justifying

32:10

it and when it happens,

32:12

may so you have it.

32:14

t. E. Nice.

32:16

Yes, We are

32:19

said: hear from people growing up and these

32:21

environments. You know the say, if I if

32:23

I hit conflict I have either C or

32:25

Say and know I'm just a people pleaser

32:27

doesn't even describe themselves as an impact. You

32:29

know I can a tune to the needs

32:31

of another. Whereas there's no such thing as

32:33

an impact. And what I hear when somebody

32:35

says that is that they have been a

32:37

victim of abuse, that they've learned to be

32:39

hyper vigilance, that they're able to predict the

32:41

moods and behaviors of their parents by the

32:43

turn of ahead are by the way, they're

32:45

breathing. And that's hyper vigilance. It's not been

32:47

an impact. and the thing. About having a

32:49

fear of saying no a child is born

32:51

with their know before they're even able to

32:53

verbalize and say no first see if one

32:55

of the first words actually verbally but even

32:58

before this this this six or had stabbed

33:00

the lately where she is you know the

33:02

lion, the floor, the don't want to do

33:04

something they're conveying that know and this abuse

33:06

is so insidious I member sharing on the

33:08

podcast from a client. it was only when

33:11

she witnessed har mother feeding her child so

33:13

the mothers feeding the grand sides and decided

33:15

sony about one and a half and. Near

33:18

the end of the sued the child is closing their

33:20

math and shaking their heads. And

33:22

the grandmother is going to look at the we've only. We've

33:25

only what they're doing and it was

33:27

only that the mother setting watching gone.

33:29

Oh my god This is where your

33:31

overpowering the know, This is where you're

33:33

projecting and identity onto the time calling

33:35

them a bully, seeing the Defiant when

33:37

actually they're just saying unfold and that's

33:39

Heather conveying us But the child is

33:41

witnessing that anger that content from the

33:44

caregiver in that states Now Thankfully the

33:46

mother was there and was able to

33:48

take this bowl of the parents and

33:50

go and know they're just follows which

33:52

for a narcissistic parents took that as

33:54

rejects. and and was very upset and all

33:56

i can't do anything by and made it

33:58

all about them So this is

34:00

how these behaviors are seeped in. And

34:03

so just to go back to what you were

34:05

talking about, Kate, then talking about boundaries. That was

34:07

the child expressing a boundary. And

34:09

as we get into adulthood, I think there's

34:11

a lot of people then that confuse preferences

34:13

with boundaries. So for example, if I was

34:15

to say to you, Kate, please don't shout

34:18

at me. That's me making a request.

34:20

That's me letting you know that I want to stay

34:22

in a relationship with you, and I'm asking you for

34:24

something. But that's not a boundary. A

34:26

boundary is saying, if you continue to speak to

34:28

me like that, I'm leaving. That's

34:31

a boundary. That's not me trying to control

34:33

you at all, and that's me letting you know

34:35

what I will and won't accept or tolerate

34:38

in the relationship. And holding the

34:40

boundary would be Kate leaving when you

34:42

shouted again. So

34:44

people do get really, this is such

34:47

an important thing, especially in ADHD autism,

34:49

around this thing of they're

34:51

trying to control my behavior. We see that

34:53

kind of. You're

34:55

giving me an ultimatum. You're giving me

34:57

an ultimatum, yeah. No,

34:59

I'm telling you how I want to interact

35:01

with other human beings. So the example I

35:03

often use for this one is direct communication.

35:06

Growing up ADHD, being very confused

35:09

by social cues. I'm quite high on

35:11

the autistic. I'm not quite across

35:13

the threshold, but I'm very close to it. And

35:16

I find social communication really confusing. Quite often

35:18

I'll ring Kate and go, they

35:21

asked me in for a cup of tea. Was I actually meant

35:23

to go in, or was I meant to say no? I don't

35:25

really understand. And she'll clarify and tell me what the rules are

35:27

and stuff. But

35:30

it's hilarious. But the

35:32

social cue things I find very

35:34

difficult. And when people are doing

35:37

the unsaid subtext communication, the indirect

35:39

communication, both feels manipulative

35:41

and it feels like someone's trying

35:43

to trick me into embarrassing myself

35:46

or saying something or agreeing to

35:48

something. Anyway, the boundary is

35:50

direct communication. That's not to say you have

35:53

to only speak to me in this way.

35:55

It's to say that if you

35:58

continue to use indirect communication. The

36:00

I'm gonna have to leave the relationship

36:02

for my own safety because I can't

36:04

I don't feel safe with in direct

36:07

communication and whilst I know it's difficult

36:09

sometimes it's a really important skill that

36:11

we all have that when my son

36:14

will discuss own hungry. Another,

36:16

So what are you asking for? This

36:18

weakness and fifties up there it is. You

36:21

know because asked for the need to be

36:23

met don't imply what the need is in

36:25

front of. Use motivation, whimsy to get it

36:27

meant to that. See everything within direct communication

36:29

it relies on me to be so empty

36:32

question of times. I

36:35

must all these questions from a personal

36:38

perspective but also in ethics. The clients

36:40

I have does not want light that

36:42

comes in and says that that childhood

36:45

has been raise a has always been

36:47

something going on and. I'd

36:49

like to talk about the instance

36:52

lies asian children and how that

36:54

greed especially where there's like one

36:56

sibling and there's always one sibling

36:58

and potentially see this again with

37:00

your a divergence as well that

37:02

maybe this been and overprotected ness

37:04

or a parents who doesn't believe

37:06

in that child's potential all this

37:08

is something going on at Maybe

37:11

you can explain what you watch

37:13

seasons and slicing a child especially

37:15

now that the child. Is grown

37:17

adults says where I think you're describing

37:19

his investment and I'm gonna let Kate

37:22

talk about that because that's her speciality

37:24

as well. I'm gonna. Pull them apart

37:26

into two separate things, the inside slice

37:28

a son and the investment Sydney. cause

37:30

for the parental my child we can

37:32

actually hear them been described as am

37:34

an old head on your shoulders been

37:36

very mature for their Aids being hyper

37:38

and the palace may okay and they

37:41

can be and messed with their parents

37:43

because they're able to anticipate the parents

37:45

needs and wants. feel so sorry for

37:47

them because obviously the parents and as

37:49

as trauma dumping on the child and

37:51

treating them like a confidant and and

37:53

a counselor so there can be an

37:55

amendment in there and I suppose what

37:57

I'm hearing you talk then about in

37:59

Santa. They sense and typically we see and

38:01

I say typically because he in of these

38:03

wouldn't leave can differ a can be deaf

38:06

or for everybody but typically it's who we

38:08

would see and Santa lives is the golden

38:10

child and often that can be a boy

38:12

in their air family system it can be

38:14

the as us or even the youngest that

38:16

can be really babies and the and centralization

38:18

is all about the game for the parents

38:20

again because of the times isn't able to

38:23

function in society as an adult will then

38:25

there's a huge game because you're always going

38:27

to rely on the you're always going to

38:29

depend on me. And therefore you're going

38:31

to stay close. You're not going to go

38:33

and have autonomy and succeed. I'm fly off

38:35

in the world. So there's

38:37

a huge fear of abandonment they are

38:40

from the parents and then they're exploiting

38:42

the relationship to have the child's dependent

38:44

on them are also setting the child

38:46

up for failure in future relationships because

38:49

he knows they're adults, will look for

38:51

a mother figure in a relationship as

38:53

opposed to an equal romantic partner. and

38:55

again, the mother is setting and that

38:58

superiority gone well. It's nobody will do

39:00

for you what I will do for

39:02

you and d here than that kind

39:04

of covert sexual abuse then in that

39:07

message. That here we have the

39:09

most wonderful relationship and warned you don't need

39:11

to go to anybody Asked as the Wolfensohn

39:13

back for you. You know nobody will love

39:16

you like I do and. That's

39:18

just disgusting message and comments to give to

39:20

a child because what we want them to

39:22

know is that they're safe people. In the

39:24

words, you Will Be Loved Go and Healthy

39:26

Relationships and I will always be here. If

39:29

you ever need comeback I will be that.

39:31

Safety for you to fall back on.

39:34

But be an adult? Be autonomous. Via.

39:37

The. Earth is. With that investment, there

39:40

is a constant source of supply

39:42

to the narcissistic parents and so

39:44

they don't ever want to surrender

39:46

enough with you school apron strings

39:48

and reader kind of cutting the

39:50

apron strings and it's it's about.

39:53

Being. So tied to your parent that

39:55

you're constantly giving the emotional feedback that

39:57

they need from other people's spicy. Mpd.

40:01

Relies on other people to provide this

40:03

image to feedback. Emotional sources, emotional supply

40:05

and so they looked how the people

40:07

to do that. But when you get

40:10

enough city parent has a child. holy

40:12

moly with got built in supply so

40:14

they use all their children for whatever

40:16

may still feedback. They won't say we

40:19

have a golden child, a scapegoat and

40:21

invisible child that we're using Those children

40:23

sick either give the adoration the at

40:26

adulation or. To. Be the place holder

40:28

for the hatred. Self. Hatred. So

40:30

yeah, that's for investment is

40:32

all about that constant source

40:34

of supply and being number

40:36

one. See. I'm number One's the

40:38

child. I want them to care about me

40:41

more than anyone else in the was. so

40:43

keep them as close as possible and I

40:45

will disempower them at every opportunity. Sorry.

40:48

What I was hearing you say

40:50

then about witnessing that relationship status

40:52

assembling then m haven't was absolutely

40:54

rice and same nests. You can't

40:56

force somebody to see the lights

40:58

and unless there's a huge grace

41:00

because there's a lesson go then

41:02

of the person when they're still

41:04

stuck in that and mass meant

41:06

when they're still in that success

41:08

A and that Greece has valid

41:10

unsealing as is is really painful

41:12

it. But it's also a hugely

41:14

healing A Molson to see like

41:16

race I think. Ultimately, Everything we've

41:19

been talking about state is how can

41:21

I avoid feeling the grief and. That.

41:24

Is the thing that we have to sue

41:26

is that we have to face the grief.

41:28

We have to face the paint, we have

41:30

to face The if I would be a

41:32

shield human that has healthy relationships, I might

41:34

have to let go of toxic relationship. And

41:36

those toxic relationships might be ones that I've

41:38

been conditioned to believe are really, really important

41:41

to me and I might have to accept

41:43

that that person is never going to be

41:45

who I need them to be and then

41:47

never going to respect me as an individual

41:49

was an autonomous be and they are always

41:51

going to punish me every time I try.

41:53

to be myself and therefore i can't

41:56

be around them and with that is

41:58

greece and you know we sit

42:00

in that like, is this ADHD, is

42:02

it autism, is it NPD? What we're

42:05

talking about is toxic hope because if

42:07

I can pin it on ADHD or

42:09

autism and therefore make it acceptable, then

42:11

hopefully I can still have

42:13

a relationship with them. But that

42:15

toxic hope kills us. It literally

42:18

destroys us. It is denial. It

42:20

is denial of grief and we

42:22

have to sit in the grief

42:24

and feel it. And sometimes

42:26

that means that we lose those relationships.

42:29

It's painful. It's really, really, really

42:31

painful. But on the other side

42:33

of that is freedom, liberation and

42:35

healthy relationships in a way that

42:37

you can't actually imagine in existing

42:41

until you've done that grieving. You

42:43

know, it's amazing to be on

42:45

this side of it, to be honest. Yeah.

42:48

Thank you for that. It's really beautifully

42:50

explained. And, you know, the book

42:53

that, you know, is going to be out

42:55

very soon or hopefully just out is talking

42:59

about lots of these conversations that we've just

43:01

had today. And are you able to give

43:04

the readers takeaways or ways that

43:06

they can help themselves if they can't go

43:08

through your amazing therapy? I guess what was

43:10

the point of writing this book for you

43:12

both? Yeah, it's literally

43:14

called You're Not The Problem, The

43:17

Impact of Narcissism and Emotional Abuse

43:19

and How to Heal. Right.

43:21

So we literally break down what narcissism

43:23

is, how it impacted you, what

43:25

emotional abuse is, how that impacts you

43:28

and how you can heal from it.

43:30

And, you know, the point of

43:32

the book for me was we are very privileged

43:34

to have as much knowledge as we do. You

43:36

know, both of us have done a huge amount

43:38

of work around the subject matter. And

43:41

to be able to share

43:44

that knowledge is a

43:47

huge honor, first of all. But when

43:49

we're doing one-to-one therapy, that's only one

43:51

person. But when we're sitting on socials

43:53

and using the podcast and then the

43:55

book, we are empowering

43:58

people to own what's happen

44:00

to them, to take responsibility for

44:02

their own behavior, their own coping

44:04

mechanisms, and to heal and

44:06

to demand healthy relationships in their

44:08

life. So for me it's about

44:10

sharing knowledge that I have

44:12

gained through my masters, through my work,

44:16

and empowering other people

44:18

to get to where we are

44:20

today in terms of healthy relationships

44:22

and healing. So yeah,

44:24

Katie. It's breaking patterns, isn't it?

44:26

Yeah, absolutely. Breaking generational patterns. Yeah.

44:29

Yeah, well it's really second thing what

44:31

Helen is saying there. For me it's

44:34

all about psychoanetication and again making this

44:36

as relatively available as possible. You know,

44:38

therapy is a privilege even for people

44:40

to attend. There's a lot of people

44:42

for socioeconomic reasons can't afford it. So

44:44

it's making this available, which is why

44:46

we have the podcast and we have

44:49

a support group, Inside Exposing Narcissism, Facebook

44:51

group. We also then have a Patreon

44:53

if people want to explore these topics

44:55

more in depth. But in terms of the

44:57

book, yes, we go into these topics, break

45:00

them down chapter by chapter. And again it's

45:02

about empowerment. We talked about one, their motivational

45:04

empathy. But let's even just look at entitlement

45:06

for a second because a lot of people

45:09

will know this about their parents. They'll say,

45:11

or they make everything about themselves. The whole

45:13

world revolves around them. It's all about them.

45:15

Helen has an analogy, you know, going spot

45:17

the narcissist at a party when it's an

45:20

event that doesn't involve them. So like a

45:22

christening, a birthday, a wedding, and they will

45:24

make it all about themselves. And

45:26

it's recognizing that there's actually a trait and

45:29

it's called entitlement. And that's where this comes

45:31

from. And we use examples and we use

45:33

four characters throughout the book that's constant so

45:35

that they can see what the impact of

45:37

growing up with a parent like this. We

45:40

break down parentification and boundaries and what boundaries

45:42

are and what that looks like. And so

45:44

yeah, we're giving people really practical tools and

45:46

exercises then in how to work through this

45:49

and heal from this. Yeah,

45:51

it's not a cliffhanger or anything. It's not

45:53

like, here's what's happened to you. Bye. You're

45:55

going to sort it out. It's like, here's

45:57

what's happened to you. Now this is what

45:59

you can do. do to fix it and

46:01

we've been told and obviously we think

46:04

it's a good read but we've been

46:06

told the feedback has been phenomenal but

46:08

also that it's very easy to read

46:10

and that was a really important thing

46:12

for me as somebody with ADHD that

46:14

it was easy to read because you

46:17

know we lose interest so quickly. I

46:19

think it sounds like the type of

46:21

book so many people need to be

46:23

able to demystify so much of this

46:25

so they can really understand it when

46:27

you say about the practical side where

46:29

you're sort of talking about you know

46:31

I love the analogies that you use

46:34

and really being able to bring it

46:36

in sort of day-to-day examples. I think

46:38

there's probably going to be quite a

46:40

lot of healing in this book for

46:42

many people and also giving people choice

46:44

and options and like you say autonomy

46:46

but they can make different decisions about

46:48

their boundaries, about how they have relationships,

46:50

how they parent or co-regulate with their

46:52

children and all these different things

46:54

that we have you know who haven't got that

46:57

self-awareness we just mirror past behaviours, we just sort

46:59

of carry on these patterns and we kind of

47:01

think well I did okay so you know I'm

47:03

just going to carry on doing what my parents

47:06

did and you know hopefully my kids will be

47:08

fine as well. So I just

47:10

wanted to thank you for helping us interrupt

47:12

these patterns and you know when I first

47:14

came across your I think I came across

47:16

your on social media first and I remember

47:18

watching the videos I

47:21

just like oh my god oh my god how

47:23

do they know this like how do they

47:25

speak in this language like I genuinely hadn't

47:27

come across it before and that's when I

47:30

started listening to your your podcast and just

47:32

being blown away by your knowledge

47:34

and how specific

47:36

you were with certain situations

47:38

and that validation you know

47:40

for me was incredibly emotional

47:43

and I've passed you you know on to quite a few clients

47:45

as well. I just want to thank

47:47

you thank you so so much for all that you

47:49

do and yeah where can people

47:51

find you are you taking on new clients

47:54

or are you directing people just

47:56

towards groups and the book

47:58

and the podcast. I'm

48:00

taking on new clients the moment that

48:02

and Selby posts on my say souls

48:04

about that I think. And the in

48:07

terms of the puck cost is in

48:09

fact if they just go to www.insightful

48:11

Cost to com he will find everything

48:13

you'll find but the podcast The Patriot

48:15

own. You find blogs you find how

48:17

to submit a letter to as your

48:19

fund the face but Chris Cillizza you

48:22

just go to that website and yeah

48:24

state. Are you taking on clients at the moment?

48:26

As a minute I'm operating a way less but

48:28

again, as you go to that website and you

48:30

can sign my website from there and you can

48:32

sign up to the were tests online or five

48:34

people whenever I'm taking on new clients and again

48:36

offering them the autonomy and to accept or decline

48:38

and that, that's what really. What we're talking about

48:40

here that say empowerment. Of

48:43

thank you Both say much for today and had

48:45

says feet space I see. Thank you for having

48:48

us. It's been lovely to talk to say thank

48:50

you so so sorry much Athena Amazing Times isn't

48:52

as a as as. And

48:57

really hope you enjoyed this week's episode

48:59

a few days and it resonated with

49:01

you. I would absolutely love it if

49:04

you could say on your platforms or

49:06

maybe leave a review and erasing wherever.

49:08

You listen to podcasts, And

49:10

please do check out my website.

49:13

A Hd Women's Well Be indicated

49:15

your case for lots of free

49:17

resources and peaceful workshop. I'm uploading

49:19

new things all the time. And

49:21

I would absolutely have to see that. Take

49:24

care and seats as an accent.