0:00

The delicious ice cold taste of Dr. Pepper

0:02

has a lasting effect on people. Lindsay from

0:04

Sacramento said... Pro tip, 40 degrees is the

0:06

perfect temperature for an ice cold Dr. Pepper. Why

0:08

is 40 degrees the perfect temperature for Dr.

0:11

Pepper? We brought in Sue from Duluth, Minnesota to

0:13

tell us. Oh yeah, I know a thing or two

0:15

about cold. Oh, that right there is the

0:17

perfect kind of ice cold for Dr. Pepper. Mmm,

0:20

I'd share that with my friend Nancy. She likes

0:22

Dr. Pepper too, you know. My coldest... Alright, that'll

0:24

be all, Sue. Having a perfect temperature for

0:26

your Dr. Pepper? It's a Pepper thing. Inspired

0:28

by Real Fan posts. Welcome

0:39

to the Elisa Childers podcast, where

0:41

we equip Christians to identify the

0:43

core beliefs of historic Christianity, discern

0:45

its counterfeits and proclaim the gospel

0:47

with clarity, kindness and truth. And

0:50

one of those core beliefs is

0:52

the physical, literal resurrection of Jesus

0:54

Christ. And that is what we're

0:56

celebrating today as this podcast comes

0:58

out. It's Resurrection Sunday. Happy Easter,

1:00

everybody. We're so glad that you've

1:03

joined in to hear this conversation

1:05

that I've just had with Christopher

1:07

Yuon about sexuality. And we're particularly

1:09

asking the question, is same-sex attraction in

1:11

and of itself a sin or is

1:14

it a sinless temptation? There's been a lot

1:16

of debate about this right now. We talk

1:18

about side-b theology and how I actually believe

1:20

side-b theology is one of the greatest threats

1:22

to the church right now. So

1:25

it's something that has been very important

1:27

in my life as I've been thinking

1:29

these things through. We talk about really

1:31

practical applications of what this means for

1:34

the person who struggles with same-sex attraction.

1:37

And ultimately, we share our concerns

1:39

about this Exiles in Babylon conference

1:41

that has openly progressive Christians, people

1:44

identifying as trans. And yet this is

1:46

a conference that is marketing itself as

1:48

an evangelical, Orthodox, Christian

1:51

conference, teaching and equipping Christians to

1:53

think biblically and Christianly about

1:55

things like deconstruction and sexuality and politics. And

1:57

we have a lot of concerns about. about

2:00

that and we're going to share some of that. It

2:02

was a really, really good conversation and

2:04

so many highlights for me. So I'm going

2:06

to take you to that in just a

2:08

moment, but I want to talk about the

2:11

resurrection because that's why we're all here. The

2:13

only reason any of this even matters is

2:15

because Jesus Christ, his dead body came alive

2:17

and he came out of the tomb. In

2:19

fact, the apostle Paul says that if Christ

2:21

has not been raised, your faith is in

2:23

vain and you're still in your sins. In

2:25

other words, if Jesus body did not come

2:28

back to life, Christianity is not true and

2:30

we might as well just go live however we

2:32

want, find something that works for you. But

2:34

as Christians, we know that Jesus is

2:36

alive. He has been raised and so

2:38

we bow our knee to him. We

2:40

submit to his authority as our Lord,

2:42

Savior and King. And so I want

2:44

to say a few words about the

2:46

resurrection because you may not be aware

2:48

that there is really good evidence that

2:51

Jesus Christ of Nazareth was resurrected

2:53

from the dead. In fact, Gary

2:56

Habermas, who's a scholar of

2:58

the resurrection compiled resources from

3:00

about 1400 sources on

3:02

the resurrection published since 1975. I'm

3:05

gonna read this quote from him. He

3:07

wrote this, I recently compiled an overview

3:09

of more than 1400 sources on the

3:11

resurrection of Jesus published since 1975. I

3:15

studied and cataloged about 650 of these texts in

3:19

English, German and French. Some of the

3:21

results of this study are certainly intriguing.

3:23

For example, perhaps no

3:26

fact is more widely recognized

3:29

than that early Christian believers had

3:31

a real experience, excuse me, had

3:33

real experiences that they thought were

3:36

appearances of the risen Jesus. A

3:38

critic may claim that what they

3:41

saw were hallucinations or visions, but

3:43

he does not deny that they

3:45

actually experienced something. And

3:47

then here's another quote from Dr. Habermas.

3:50

He said, there is a virtual

3:52

consensus among scholars who study Jesus

3:54

resurrection that subsequent to Jesus' death

3:56

by crucifixion, his disciples really believed

4:00

them risen from the dead. I want

4:02

to read you a few other quotes.

4:04

I'm going to read you a quote

4:06

from an atheist. This is German New

4:08

Testament scholar, historian and atheist Gerd Ludemann.

4:11

And he was actually a professing Christian at one

4:13

point, but he walked away from his faith when

4:16

he didn't think the New Testament was reliable.

4:18

But he actually even had a quote about

4:20

the resurrection. And here's what he said. It

4:23

may be taken as historically certain

4:26

that Peter and the disciples had

4:28

experiences after Jesus' death in

4:30

which Jesus appeared to them as

4:32

the risen Lord, risen Christ. Sorry.

4:35

Now I want to bring you to

4:37

another agnostic slash atheist skeptic. This is

4:40

Bart Ehrman, who is the distinguished professor

4:42

of religious studies at the University of

4:44

North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He's a

4:46

very respected scholar. He's agnostic.

4:49

But about the resurrection, here's what he wrote.

4:51

This is a quote, historians, of course, have

4:53

no difficulty speaking about the belief in the

4:56

resurrection of Jesus since this is a matter

4:58

of public record. It is a

5:00

historical fact that some of Jesus' followers

5:02

came to believe that he had been

5:04

raised from the dead soon after his

5:07

execution. We know some of these believers

5:09

by name, one of them, the apostle

5:11

Paul, claims quite plainly to have seen

5:13

Jesus alive after his death. Thus, for

5:15

the historian, Christianity begins after the death

5:18

of Jesus, not with the resurrection itself,

5:20

but with the belief in the resurrection.

5:22

So, of course, Bart Ehrman doesn't believe

5:24

that the resurrection actually happened. But

5:27

he says it's a historical fact that

5:29

Jesus' followers certainly believed they had

5:31

seen Jesus raised from the dead.

5:34

And here's another thing he wrote in one

5:36

of his blog posts. He said, the most

5:38

important thing to stress is that there are

5:41

two historical realities that simply cannot be denied.

5:43

The followers of Jesus did claim that Jesus

5:45

came back to life. If they had not

5:47

claimed that, we would not have Christianity. So

5:50

they did claim it. Moreover, they did claim

5:52

that they knew he rose precisely because of

5:54

some of them saw him alive again afterward.

5:56

No one can doubt that. Now,

5:59

I want to give you a theologian. This

6:01

is N.T., right? Historian, New Testament scholar.

6:03

He said, as a historian, I cannot

6:05

explain the rise of early Christianity unless

6:07

Jesus rose again, leaving an empty tomb

6:09

behind him. And I want to give

6:12

one more quote from an ex-con. This

6:14

is Charles Colson, who once served as

6:16

special counsel to President Richard Nixon, and

6:18

he famously went to prison after Watergate.

6:20

And that's when he became a Christian

6:22

in 1973, originally

6:25

due to the resurrection of Jesus,

6:27

the evidence that he saw. And

6:30

one detail regarding Watergate was similar

6:32

to the resurrection. In both cases,

6:34

12 men claimed something that

6:36

would affect world history. And in the case

6:39

of Watergate, it only took two weeks for

6:41

them to crack under pressure. So here's a

6:43

quote from Charles Colson. He said,

6:45

the real cover-up, the lie could only be

6:47

held together for two weeks, and then everybody

6:49

else jumped ship in order to save themselves.

6:51

He's talking about Watergate. Now, the fact is

6:53

that all that those

6:56

around the president were facing was embarrassment,

6:58

maybe prison. Nobody's life was at stake.

7:00

But what about the disciples? He goes on, 12 powerless

7:03

men, peasants really, were facing

7:05

not just embarrassment or political

7:08

disgrace, but beating Stonings' execution.

7:11

Every single one of the disciples insisted

7:13

to their dying breaths that they had

7:15

physically seen Jesus bodily raised from the

7:17

dead. Don't you think that one of

7:19

those apostles would have cracked before being

7:21

beheaded or stoned? That none of

7:23

them did would have made a deal

7:25

with the authorities? None did. Jesus is Lord. That's the

7:27

thrilling message of Easter. And it's

7:33

a historic fact, one convincingly established

7:35

by the evidence and one you

7:37

can bet your life upon. Go

7:39

ahead, researchers, dig up all

7:42

the old graves you want. You won't

7:44

change a thing. He has

7:46

risen. And he has risen indeed. And

7:48

that's what we celebrate today. So I

7:51

love Talking about the

7:53

Resurrection of Jesus Because it is so the

7:55

facts surrounding the resurrection of Jesus, not only

7:57

do we get those from the dead, but

7:59

also the dead. inspired word of God. But

8:01

there is a lot of evidence that even

8:03

the most skeptical scholars at least will grant

8:05

that Jesus close his followers believed that they

8:07

saw him alive after he was dead and

8:09

they went to their death. They were willing

8:12

to be tortured, they were willing to be

8:14

imprisoned, they were willing to be beaten, and

8:16

they were willing to give their lives maintaining

8:18

that that testimony is true and I don't

8:20

know about you. I mean, I might give

8:22

my life for something I believed to be

8:24

true, something I have faith in, but I

8:26

certainly wouldn't give my life and be willing

8:28

to go through all of those things for

8:30

something that I absolutely new was a lie

8:32

and.would have been the position the eyewitnesses would

8:34

have been in it a day. Didn't go

8:36

to their deaths. For. Ally they knew

8:39

it was true and even the most

8:41

are skeptical scholars will grant the dirt.

8:43

The followers of Jesus certainly believed they

8:45

saw him alive after he was dead.

8:47

So happy. Resurrection Sunday! Have Easter everybody!

8:49

I am very excited to bring you

8:51

this conversation with Christopher you on the

8:53

just before we get to.a Want to

8:55

let you know that today's episode is

8:57

brought to you by Summit Ministry. Some

9:00

ministry's is one of our ministry partners

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that we live. In fact I get

9:04

the opportunity every summer to go to

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To have a biblical worldview in a culture

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where culture isn't really tolerating the Christian worldview

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9:46

Christopher You on. Or

9:49

Christopher as always. it's such a joy

9:51

to have you on the podcast and

9:53

I specifically wanted to invite you on

9:55

today because there has been a little

9:57

bit of controversy. a little bit. The.

10:01

Confusion. I think around topics like same

10:03

sex attraction and is same sex attraction

10:06

sinful and what does what does it

10:08

mean to say somebody struggles with same

10:10

sex attraction? Recently wrote resign he was

10:12

on the podcast and she was talking

10:15

a little bit about this and I

10:17

actually got to be with resort area

10:19

a couple weeks ago at the conference

10:21

in Fort Lauderdale. The Coral. Ridge

10:24

Conference. There and it was so sweet

10:26

to get to spend some time with her.

10:28

May actually walked for about two miles and

10:30

I just got to ask her all my

10:33

questions and and I have found for myself

10:35

that I have come to some clarity on

10:37

some of these topics. I wanted to buy

10:39

you on to dig a little deeper into

10:41

Side Be Christianity and specifically this Exiles and

10:44

Babylon conference that I had mentioned before that

10:46

we were going to kind of dig a

10:48

little bit more into that. Why? We have

10:50

concerns about conferences like these and this, when

10:52

and in particular, but I want to. Lay

10:55

the foundation just a low bit. We talked

10:57

about side the urban centers park have this

10:59

to pack as but just in case somebody

11:01

is a little bit unfamiliar. Give us just

11:03

a a quick definition of what what are

11:05

we talking about when we're talking about our

11:07

concerns about Side Be Theology Because I will

11:09

say this: I do believe Side Be Theology.

11:11

Is probably. The most dangerous thing

11:13

that's trying to infiltrate the church right

11:16

now because it's so so confusing. So

11:18

at some to eat of there's enough

11:20

truth in it that people tend to

11:22

go. Oh, it's okay because we basically

11:24

agree, but we don't Basically bridge to

11:26

tell us was it's side be the

11:28

allergy is a. Is for for those who

11:31

are unfamiliar. Yeah. Actually so

11:33

for have me on and on again

11:35

I, I and I maybe before we

11:37

jump that you that lot of detractors

11:39

are just gonna say you know what?

11:42

todo or approach this is Not. Mission.

11:44

A lot of Angeles stick I would be really

11:46

clear. These. Discussions about beside be.

11:49

I mean I'm not going to have this

11:51

conversation with my ugly be friends. I'm not

11:53

going to have three obsession. With. The

11:55

person who's in the same sex marriage or

11:57

and a gay relationship and I went away.

12:00

Them to Christ and and so this

12:02

is not about the our tone right

12:04

now are to address false teaching in

12:06

the church. Yeah I'm not a be

12:08

false teaching in the world Get their

12:11

spots teaching in the world so that

12:13

these aren't gonna be these debates and

12:15

I'm going to be debating with my

12:17

get And and even if they're taking

12:19

on this false identity of gay I'm

12:22

not going to just found them on

12:24

that. We're talking about christian leaders and

12:26

even make New Christian I'm I'm gonna

12:28

walk with them solely. With this but

12:31

our point is what is the

12:33

end goal. That. Is so

12:35

important? I mean like in missions

12:37

and Evangelism arm we're We're not

12:39

really. We're not going to be

12:41

forcing that and goal of just

12:44

joyful obedience to Christ and submission

12:46

to price right away. That, but

12:48

that's the end goal. And so

12:50

this is where we're talking about

12:52

where the the end goal of

12:54

Christianity sanctification Christ himself. What it

12:56

is to be like Christ is

12:59

being just completely obvious. Get it?

13:01

It's very, very ambiguous. So here's

13:03

the of. The

13:05

other shoe that we often hear

13:07

people say is were just quibbling

13:09

over words. Samantha Idol. How

13:12

much to be? Ah, how

13:14

stronger. I can say that

13:17

this is absolutely Not about.

13:20

Just. Terminology and and every

13:23

person that kind of says

13:25

that. Doesn't know the

13:27

issue and has had actually been

13:29

listening to people that have as critique

13:31

side be this is not about. Words.

13:35

Words. Have meaning Yet

13:37

Are we using words? Long Theology?

13:39

Use Worse. The Gospel uses words.

13:42

This podcast were using words of

13:44

it's It to actually kind of

13:46

trivialize a theology and trivialize the

13:48

deeper meanings behind the words. We

13:50

use worse described who we are.

13:53

So the real issue is I'm

13:55

not just about how you might

13:57

have a label because people that.

14:00

While you identified as if I have

14:02

many labels I you know and after

14:04

that I and identified different ways That's

14:06

not what we're talking about. He heard

14:08

what talking about his. Is.

14:10

Our sin nature at the core of

14:13

are being a you know is that

14:15

I mean it's it's definitely clouds everything

14:17

but as are sinful behavior, who we

14:19

are and that the whole thing and

14:22

then that clouds everything then you know

14:24

is. Is this gonna

14:26

be something that I'm going to

14:29

actually celebrate and say okay, that

14:31

I'm. Ah, You know what people

14:33

say, What is colors? Everything you know at people

14:35

who are advocating for this often say well this

14:37

colors everything. How their whole lives.

14:40

Sin. Colors everything. That's a very

14:42

biblical thing and therefore I need to

14:44

reject that and modify the g than

14:47

that flesh and put to death my

14:49

son nature. So what this is about

14:51

is true repentance. Is repentance about simply

14:54

be acts. Or. More than

14:56

that, That's with of decisions

14:58

about what is transformation look like

15:00

which is repentance and sanctification look

15:02

like So when I'm and maybe

15:04

if I could just and put

15:07

it in a nutshell since not

15:09

a bow it's. Semantics.

15:12

It's. About whether we're encouraging people

15:14

to stay in are not seen

15:17

in their thoughts in their hearts

15:19

though people might side be state.

15:22

But. When we're not encouraged to be action. That.

15:24

That part I can agree with

15:26

my it's we act calling people

15:28

to repentance and their thoughts in

15:31

their diet desires and in their

15:33

same sex romantic relationships and side

15:35

be does not do that. right?

15:38

And society would be an.

15:40

People. Who are affirming Biblical marriage right

15:43

there? For me, that marriage is between

15:45

a man and a woman. and yet

15:47

we're. Embracing. It as

15:49

I as to like Go Ness as

15:51

a core identity or or something on

15:54

the Lgbtq spectrum that that can actually

15:56

be someone's six core identity. I'm

15:58

in fact on the. They Can

16:00

Fade podcast Natasha and I read a quote

16:02

from Wesley Hills book where he said and

16:04

i'm i'm trying to trying to pull it

16:06

up so I could say it exactly a

16:08

bid people can go back and listen to

16:10

that if they if they want more about

16:12

that that it had to do with He

16:15

said my gayness is like a drop of

16:17

inc in a glass of water is permeates

16:19

everything from the music that I listen to

16:21

or that I liked it to listen to

16:23

to the the clothes I wear and and

16:25

so what Natasha commented on is at its

16:27

meter. So sad to think that these he's

16:29

basically appealing. To stereotype to say this is

16:31

like my core identity like this ain't gonna

16:33

in a glass and so that's kind of

16:36

what wix ideas coming from as as hard

16:38

I understand it and so what would I

16:40

think This has caused so much confusing Christopher

16:42

Because then people think, well, is same sex

16:44

attraction just a sin less temptation. Is this

16:46

just sort of a a a temptation And

16:49

and in and if we say that it's

16:51

a sin, what does that mean? I think

16:53

that's a huge question that people have been

16:55

so I'm in a given example. In this

16:57

is how I I like to think about.

17:00

It is put any other sin.

17:02

In. The place of eat same

17:05

sex attraction and see if it

17:07

works out right? So so here's

17:09

a good example. Let's say there

17:11

is a married man who has

17:13

been becomes attracted to a woman

17:16

at work and and a an

17:18

end. He starts thinking, well, I

17:20

find her really sexually attractive, but I'm not

17:22

going to act on it. That.

17:24

But. You know I mean that. That's just

17:27

what it is. It's just a single

17:29

temptation. I don't think there's anybody out

17:31

there that would fail to recognize that.is.

17:34

A. Desire that is coming from

17:36

the inside even though it's not being

17:38

quote unquote, acted on in the physical.

17:40

That is sinful desire. That that is

17:43

something that I think everybody would say

17:45

meant repent of that. While it's still

17:47

a teeny tiny little thought in your

17:49

head, it's coming from your desires. Say

17:52

no. I I you know it repented. That

17:54

desire recognize that.sinful Not us,

17:56

and less temptation. And yet

17:58

when we apply that. The same

18:00

sex attraction or or other ones we we

18:02

want to finish. They will know that's different

18:04

that's in a different category. So how would

18:06

you navigate that question Is same Sex Attraction

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20:05

your husband or if you're a man right

20:07

now and you're married. At. Your

20:09

wife, Would you allow your

20:11

spouse? To. Be in

20:13

this non sexual a

20:15

covenant to sell a

20:17

bit Partnership. You. Know

20:20

and they're of dining room which

20:22

they that they hold hands but

20:24

they don't have sex So going

20:26

back to Sigma that you just

20:28

said and I and I actually

20:30

I'm encouraging people to actually correct

20:33

the teaching at People Like was

20:35

Hillside be like could make Collins

20:37

oppressed and sprinkle the the great

20:39

cause they very much keep saying

20:41

I hold are they they would

20:43

say that they hold true to

20:45

a traditional sexual epic another which

20:48

they uphold biblical marriage. I

20:50

I really want to be is clear as day. They.

20:53

Do Not. A.

20:56

Why? Because marriage never

20:58

is defined. just buy

21:00

sex. right? So he

21:02

will say and I I I This

21:05

is one part one little thing where

21:07

I would agree with them. They do

21:09

say that that the sexes wrong same

21:11

sex sex is wrong. That sex is

21:13

for marriage alone. That's where I had.

21:16

It is for met man and a

21:18

woman In marriage alone. That's where I

21:20

would agree. But this is where are

21:22

they fall into false teaching. Where

21:25

they will actually in cook They

21:27

think as long as you're not

21:30

having sex that's fine and I'm.

21:33

That's. Not difficult. Sexuality.

21:35

So so another during what.

21:38

Now the her that clarifying question would

21:40

they say. Last.

21:42

Would be out there and I don't think they would say

21:44

lust is okay where they are. How would that be as

21:47

good as anybody? Would say that's

21:49

that's related to ah like a sexual

21:51

desire and they would say that's wrong

21:53

and with that is that if you

21:55

have these real met an innate collins

21:58

even cut of blurs the line. More

22:00

cosy beauty. So. It in

22:02

his book on a. Lot

22:05

about beauty. So sexy, like it's

22:07

nuts in a same sex sexual

22:09

orientation. It's You know, it's beauty.

22:11

It's the aesthetic. Well, If.

22:13

A man If your husband is enjoying

22:16

the beauty of another woman, her breasts.

22:18

Were. The heard her rear out.

22:20

Would you be okay with that? Elisa?

22:22

I know, I know nothing about. Tell

22:24

me about Little you get your. Odds.

22:26

Are that did he has. While enjoying

22:29

beauty, that's that's yeah, that's what this

22:31

is. Why is this is really heresy?

22:33

I'm I'm I'm cheap. I tone from

22:35

five years ago because I think five

22:38

years ago we were still you know

22:40

kind of figuring these categories out. Them

22:42

most of the church was not or

22:44

anything like this that was reports for

22:47

are pressed struggle and now what we're

22:49

seeing as there so much confusion and

22:51

that's why they're nice to be so

22:53

much more clarity. It's not, it's not

22:56

being mean. Or. The given

22:58

our social media on twitter a side

23:00

be gay excel the Christian was like

23:02

why do you hate us. As

23:04

it used to come. You can't

23:07

take your sin without hating

23:09

yourself Where I'm critiquing the

23:11

concept of sought he. Gave.

23:13

Christianity. This is why they keep saying this is

23:15

not who I am but. Author:

23:18

During their actions are showing. This is

23:20

who they are. So when I'm actually

23:22

critiquing this false teaching, what do they

23:24

do? A they see this is it's

23:26

hacking themselves So they are for. Gay.

23:29

Does not mean just same sex

23:32

attracted gay for side be means

23:34

who they are. Yeah much they

23:36

it's not and so to go

23:38

back on. Them

23:41

saying they holds you that. Marriage.

23:43

Is between man and a woman?

23:45

They don't And here's why on

23:48

the side be. They.

23:50

Promote something called Spiritual Friendship so some

23:52

of you listeners might be familiar with

23:55

that term. So this all what we're

23:57

talking about? His side: be. Guess.

24:00

A Soda Christianity Spiritual

24:02

Friendship Revise am. Et

24:05

cetera. What that framework a you

24:07

might might hurt in different ways.

24:09

What they promote is this term

24:11

called spiritual friendship and what that

24:14

is essentially is defined by them

24:16

is this covenant. It is so

24:18

the coveted that they will a

24:20

sometimes will they have this apps

24:23

or ceremony Not always but it's

24:25

still some but in many cases

24:27

they will or they will abbott

24:29

actual ceremony where up in in

24:32

a. In a Evansville good

24:34

Church And these churches think they're

24:36

doing something biblical and they will

24:38

actually have to same such attracted

24:40

men and a covenant together and

24:42

they say we're going to be

24:44

friends for life and they my

24:46

own a home together. There's actually

24:48

in many these large cities Revised

24:50

Encouraged: If your church is in

24:52

affirming you leave your shirts. That's

24:55

another false teaching nother heresy and

24:57

they a say create your own

24:59

Churches of Rewards Churches And I'm

25:01

so this is how deep were

25:03

going and that that's what because

25:05

the competition is so much changed.

25:07

Ah I'm. He. Even Greg

25:09

Johnson, who basically blew up the

25:11

Presbyterian Church of America Pc and

25:13

then left it which. Resign.

25:16

I said years before that happens like you've

25:18

gonna leave the church which he did. I'm

25:20

just as soon as he left that church

25:22

he was on a radio station in the

25:25

Uk where the Uk person said if a

25:27

gay person was coming, a gay couple them

25:29

and they're married came into your church and

25:31

they said we're not having sex what would

25:33

you say he was I I wouldn't do

25:35

anything, I would just celebrate them and just

25:37

well. When. You're doing. Just

25:40

don't have sexy. So this

25:42

is the issue. I'm most

25:44

been. Couples. That

25:47

are Christian I'm not. I'm not. you know,

25:49

so called lesbian celibate. For

25:52

I'm just saying but just let been many that they

25:54

don't even have sex. Sex is not a big part.

25:56

so are their relationships okay? then. Them. Though.

26:00

The marriage is not

26:02

confined, just two sacks.

26:05

And so this is important.

26:08

And. Side be the they do

26:10

not. Sold. To

26:12

a traditional sexual ethic, Pressed and

26:14

Sprinkle doesn't. Ah, they've And the

26:17

reason is because here's the error:

26:20

They. Limit sexual immorality only

26:22

to the ah. That's

26:24

not sexuality. it'll go. Sexuality condemns also

26:27

the simple desires. And where do I

26:29

get that the surround them out so

26:31

that it was Always go back to

26:33

scripture. You know, don't believe some something

26:35

that I said just because I said

26:37

it. Listen, take notes and open up

26:40

the would have got that is our.

26:42

Anchor that is our guide and and I

26:44

don't see that on the side be they're

26:47

going by emotions and stories and us. A

26:49

Jesus honest around the mountain said if a

26:51

man looks lustfully at a woman. Or.

26:53

Did you say after that? As. long

26:55

as as as an act on it I my. Way

26:59

it's rifle look not. Jesus said

27:01

if a man that lustfully at

27:03

a one which by the way

27:06

that word lust is the is

27:08

from the Greek verb at the

27:10

through mail which means to desire

27:12

the same word. Of

27:15

a man desires a woman. Did

27:17

you what to commit adultery? He's

27:20

already committed adultery. Yeah and so

27:22

need to realize that we must

27:24

call people to Price number One.

27:27

But. As people aren't. They.

27:29

Come to Christ there is an end

27:32

goal and that his holiness that is

27:34

sanctification which again you don't hear among

27:36

side be you never hear about talk

27:38

about holiness you get a lot a

27:40

lot of talk about victimhood. About

27:42

and marginalization. About.

27:45

Them being oppressed of which you know

27:47

they off the top. They've been mistreated

27:50

by the church which sometimes I for

27:52

the other side of the story and

27:54

injured as idea. oh there was no

27:56

you know ah me it was basically

27:58

just church discipline. No real

28:01

voice has returned church discipline

28:03

to trauma. And

28:06

I'm. The. Bible very

28:08

clearly says God Shasta's those whom

28:10

he loves. how dare up call

28:12

gas chassis chastising. Ah, been nothing

28:15

other than love but a college

28:17

trauma and that So there's as

28:19

you so much a complicated thing

28:22

that I just wish that the

28:24

church would and come to grips

28:26

and realize that the fuck that

28:29

at I would. I'm going

28:31

to mention that averse that is very sobering

28:33

for me com than I did this to

28:35

your reminder for Oliver's it's a reminder for

28:38

me. I I think about this verse a

28:40

lot. I'm not just trying to kind of

28:42

point fingers at others this diverse that pertains

28:44

to me as well. This is just his

28:47

own words. Matthew eighteen per six Jesus As

28:49

but whoever. Causes. One

28:51

of these little ones who believe will need

28:53

to sin which is t to say your

28:56

ears The sobering part. It

28:58

would be better for him

29:00

to have a great millstone

29:02

fast and around his neck

29:04

and to be drowned in

29:06

the depth of the sea.

29:10

So I'm. Ah, I

29:12

don't want. No. Millstone around

29:14

my neck and I'll get

29:17

any. Those of you watching

29:19

if. If there is anything

29:21

that I'm saying an end. In

29:23

the past twenty years that I've

29:25

been speaking and writing, I have

29:27

refined what I said and made

29:29

it more precise because twenty years

29:31

ago so no one was really

29:33

talking about that had specially. A

29:37

way that was not based in

29:39

kind of developmental theory and and

29:41

Freud and so. I

29:43

had to refine what I said.

29:45

To be more precise, I think

29:48

we always need to be more

29:50

biblical, not less been. More.

29:53

Like what scripture teachers and not

29:55

accommodating and what I'm seeing if

29:57

you know especially from the side

29:59

the river. Go. And

30:01

now The Babylon Not becoming more

30:03

biblical. Yeah, more. And.

30:06

More dominating. Left

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31:31

And. More confusing and old All of

31:33

these things. Well I this has been

31:35

an interesting journey for me personally Christopher

31:38

because I'm thinking back to even for

31:40

the last fifteen years I'm even before

31:42

side be with this sub. Seeing anybody

31:44

talked about are really and you know

31:46

had it's it's tenants refined and out

31:49

there on website and things like that.

31:51

I mean I ate. This is in

31:53

such a humbling journey for me to

31:55

because I realize that I had bought

31:58

into since I'd be language even. Probably

32:00

aren't as much as I always be honest with

32:02

you out there. Now I would have if you

32:04

would have a presented to me say be as

32:07

you've described I was the oh no no I

32:09

don't believe in that. I don't believe that somebody

32:11

should have from that as or identity But in

32:13

many ways I had absorbed that and I'm I'm

32:16

just. I actually feel like I'm on the verge

32:18

of tears here because I've seen the negative. Outcome

32:21

and bad fruit the.have had produced in the

32:23

lives of people that I love very very

32:25

much. Who on this sort of idea that?

32:27

well if you have these attractions and you

32:30

get saved, you're just gonna have to be

32:32

alone the rest of your life. You're just

32:34

going to be celibate the rest of your

32:36

life and there's no hope for you. Snap

32:38

Wouldn't said it that way, but in my

32:40

heart it was like well, just you know,

32:42

don't worry about the the desire. Just you

32:44

know, be faithful, don't don't act on it

32:46

and it'll all be fine. Well as Reserve

32:48

has said, say be as a waiting room.

32:50

For side A, Which side A is

32:53

fully affirming, right? And I've watched people

32:55

I love very very very much though.

32:57

From.to I'm just giving in and acting

32:59

on it Him then you know who's

33:01

living with a partner or something like

33:03

that And it breaks my heart to

33:05

think that my confusion over this issue

33:07

may be lend a hand into that.

33:10

And so I said this on there

33:12

was Aria podcast Edward I. I also

33:14

want to say if you know, I

33:16

don't know how many times maybe I've

33:18

done that on this podcast, but I

33:20

just. Want everyone to hear me say that?

33:22

I fully get it now and I repent

33:25

of that. Any sort of language that would

33:27

confirm the idea that this is some sort

33:29

of six core identity that you know got

33:31

God. In. And the implication is

33:34

that you know, don't expect, got to change

33:36

your heart know some people obviously are going

33:38

it. they're going to continue to struggle. We

33:40

all have the setting sense that we struggle

33:42

with the predators, things that were inclined towards

33:45

and but even for someone to just give

33:47

a personal testimony to. As I thought through

33:49

this even more deeply over the past, it

33:51

may be two months even is it caused

33:53

great fruit in my own life. With my

33:56

particular struggles right in my struggle might not

33:58

be same sex attraction, it's and. The else.

34:00

But even for me to say no, I

34:02

want to repent of this when it's just

34:04

as a desire in my heart. I don't.

34:06

I don't want this to grow into. Semi.

34:09

Certainly don't want it to grow into a

34:11

physical action, but I want to kill this

34:13

thing. while it's teeny tiny just as a

34:15

thought her desire in my heart and so

34:17

I want to testify to that because I'm

34:19

sure there are a lot of people who

34:22

sera say that you same sex desire is

34:24

a sin. Same sex attraction is a sense

34:26

and then they think will that is so

34:28

condemning to my friends and loved ones or

34:30

to myself or whoever it might be that

34:32

actually this isn't a struggle and what I

34:34

wanna be sure people understand as we are

34:37

not saying that if somebody struggles with same.

34:39

Sex Attraction. They can't follow Jesus or

34:41

there you know just condemned to this

34:43

horrible it. Know it's it's actually it's

34:45

freedom. It's freedom to be able to

34:47

identify your send an invite people into

34:49

repentance Because repentance is repentance until life

34:51

and so on. I want to see

34:53

one more thing in a throat to

34:55

Chris for you mentioned that your tone

34:57

is changed a little bit where he

34:59

becoming more precise, you becoming a little

35:01

bit more or maybe pointed in your

35:03

criticisms. And I I am too and

35:05

I want everyone to hear us. I.

35:08

Think now is the time to do

35:10

that. and it's so important I'm reading

35:12

a book right now called. Well, I

35:15

think it's something about the negative World

35:17

by Aaron Rent and he's basically talking

35:19

about in Evangelism. There's been these three

35:21

phases in America. There's the positive world,

35:23

the neutral world, and the negative world.

35:25

A positive World was up until about

35:28

Ninety Ninety Four when culture was generally

35:30

accepting and positive about Christian morality. We

35:32

expected our President's to be faithful to

35:34

their wives. We expected there to be

35:36

a general sense of morality. In the

35:39

world, right? And then that kind of changed

35:41

ninety Ninety Four till, but the mid twenty

35:43

turns was a neutral world. This was when

35:45

we could have had a more casual conversations

35:48

about these things may be more you know

35:50

bridge building type things third way kind of

35:52

things were either Tim Keller approach were huge

35:55

enough because people don't hate you yet in

35:57

the interview can reason still you can convince

35:59

and. Wade people may be to the

36:01

Christian worldview, but welcome to the negative world

36:03

everybody. We are now in the negative world

36:06

where it culture is generally negative about Christian

36:08

morality Said, that's why doesn't the you know?

36:10

I appreciate so much about Scintilla, but that's

36:12

where the Tim Killer approach isn't working anymore.

36:14

Even you know, Tim Keller toward the end

36:17

was beginning to get cancelled where he was

36:19

going to receive an award from a liberal

36:21

seminary, but they revoked it because he's complimentary

36:23

and so welcome to the negative world everybody.

36:25

They're gonna hate you no matter how you

36:28

say it or what you say. it's. So

36:30

it's really time for clarity and I say

36:32

I think it's really time to call a

36:34

lot to stuff out. So. And

36:36

when it or the statue and I want to

36:38

make sure we we get to this Exiles in

36:41

Babylon conference that's a just for the people listening

36:43

for saying okay, what do I do with all

36:45

this If we're saying that same sex attraction or

36:47

desire is a sin, will I mean Jesus was

36:50

tempted and he didn't send. So what's the difference

36:52

between? isn't that just a temptation or is there

36:54

you know is there And this is I think

36:56

One helpful way that I heard was are you

36:59

talk about it, Not get your opinion on this

37:01

But ah and this isn't just her opinion this

37:03

as you know it as a theology sort of

37:05

school of theology. To the temptation of

37:07

and is actually to take the temptation. There's

37:10

a temptation is dems out of your desire

37:12

that is a said that that is coming

37:14

from your sinful desire york the original sin

37:16

in you. And then there's an external take

37:18

the temptation that's just outside information that's presented.

37:20

So maybe you're walking down the street and

37:22

somebody offers you drugs or something and it's

37:24

not something that you came from your own

37:27

heart but you're like no no I I.

37:29

I that's. Not even a definite

37:31

that would be like a seamless temptation

37:33

when you're just rejecting outside information. Which

37:36

is the type of temptation that Jesus

37:38

and encounters. There was nothing fall in

37:40

our sinful in she's this nature so

37:42

all of his temptation was coming from

37:44

external sources. But there's this other tight

37:46

that is sinful, but it can be

37:48

repented up and that's the hope. So

37:51

what's your thoughts on how to talk

37:53

about the difference between may desire interpretation

37:55

or do you think some temptations can

37:57

actually be sinful? Yo.

38:00

Yeah, so I think it and. Make

38:02

you just or what you shared as well. I

38:04

I think there's there's just a lot of repentance

38:07

as I was a good thing and and and

38:09

I want to be led to repentance and and

38:11

I encourage people please contact me if there's something

38:13

that I'm saying that is leading people to sin.

38:16

I want to correct that. I want

38:18

to be more precise owner repent of

38:21

that. So I'm so glad that you

38:23

brought the substation part because this is

38:25

sometimes in my passion to Canada send

38:27

troops to go Sexuality That is not

38:29

just the act as worry voice and

38:31

Preston will keep saying you know the

38:33

action is wrong and they're right there.

38:36

But that's only part of the truth

38:38

that's not true before Six well he

38:40

only clues also everything else But here's

38:42

where them people then miss understand that

38:44

they're like oh well then I'm always.

38:46

In Sin. What? This is where we

38:48

differentiate between. What? The Bible

38:51

talks about and you brought up

38:53

attraction. So in my book college

38:55

relative the gospel I addressed this

38:57

very issue is same sex attraction

38:59

a sin and I differentiates because

39:01

of the word attraction actually not

39:03

found the bible and what we

39:05

find it idol are two other

39:07

words temptation and desire. And at

39:09

these two words are found in

39:11

the bible. So when when when

39:13

when I was just say about

39:15

desire what my oftentimes many people

39:17

don't realize is that the word

39:19

desire. In Greek the verb epically

39:21

metal or the noun epic the mia

39:24

A we translate in the English different

39:26

ways desire or lust. If it's sin,

39:28

we will call it as lust. Desire

39:31

if it's Kenmore due to put his

39:33

at the same word. So when we

39:35

think that desired turns into less that's

39:37

actually not a biblical that. that's not

39:40

a good Correct A wrongly ordered desire

39:42

is already seen. It is less where

39:44

we get that some random out Matthew

39:46

Five Now temptation. So what you're talking

39:49

about, This is where. We talk

39:51

about the distinction between being tempted

39:53

and is it desire of give

39:55

your giving into temptation? That's if

39:58

you've already given to temptation. That

40:00

isn't That is when you're beginning

40:02

that desire. That simple desire. But

40:04

being tempted is different. Now

40:07

this is where we get these the law school

40:09

concepts of an internal temptation and an extra of

40:11

this And I know people are like well you

40:13

know, find that in the Bible I I think

40:15

I heard that argument in a while. Patches of

40:18

say that in the Bible external temptation well trinity

40:20

is not a word founded by all means the

40:22

can't help steer again I and I'm hearing it

40:24

from bible scholar that even said you know you

40:26

know I added you as press met even said

40:28

in a while you don't find the word extra

40:31

temptation and vital Well. Trinity. Is

40:33

in the Bible. The bible isn't the

40:35

where did of in the bible is

40:37

the concept were absolutely or external temptation.

40:39

Jesus was not tempted by his own

40:42

son nature didn't have as the nature

40:44

Satan was tempting him for forty days.

40:46

That's a clear external temptation so that's

40:48

the word. External isn't found in the

40:50

bible but. It's. It's an

40:52

external temptation is not coming from within.

40:55

It was Satan tempting him. So that's

40:57

an external. That's what we would just

40:59

call that. You could call it satan.

41:01

something. You're Whatever. I mean, it wouldn't.

41:03

Whatever. that may be. York and Eight

41:06

with circumstantial at external. where do we

41:08

get the internal Where that comes right

41:10

from James Chapter One and I'll just

41:12

read it on rest fourteen. But each

41:15

person is tempted when he has learned

41:17

and enticed by his own desires. On

41:19

other words, it's coming from with in.

41:22

And. Then

41:24

desire when it as conceived, gives

41:26

birth to sin. And sin when

41:28

it is fully grown brings forth

41:30

deaths of That's where we have.

41:33

Ah this and and of and of course

41:36

this were desire is that require Happy to

41:38

Mia. And

41:40

I'm so this is where we

41:42

get this internal to temptation. Now

41:44

there's a lot of discussions. Someone

41:47

will say that you know James

41:49

One is giant college of Jason

41:51

sin of others will say it's

41:53

nods. I think that's a a

41:55

worthy discussion, but to me I

41:57

don't want to almost get. The

42:00

caught up in that but I think

42:02

we can definitely call that External temptation

42:04

is not said. It's not coming from

42:06

within, It's not coming from what James

42:09

is talking about. Our own desire and

42:11

that were desire is happy to me.

42:13

Oh in other words, if any sinful

42:15

you know so our sinful desires can

42:18

actually bring about another temptation to another

42:20

said that's just our sinful heart of

42:22

I mean of out from the heart

42:24

blows your house, adultery, fornication out. You

42:26

know all these evil things so that's

42:29

where that's coming from. But what we

42:31

can definitely say. If

42:34

there's an external temptation to, let me just

42:36

give an example. So like like Jesus he

42:38

was tempted by see if. I'm.

42:40

If a man was walking down the street in the

42:43

summertime, Beautiful. Woman

42:45

walks by which I about

42:47

beauty again I'm and snooze.

42:49

It's It's a hot day so she's not wearing

42:51

much she's wearing that may be a tank top

42:54

and really tight shorts. And

42:56

a man sees that. Shit.

42:59

Who is she walks by him?

43:01

That's would be a temptation for

43:03

me. Ah I'm. That. Wouldn't be

43:05

seen that an external temptation when

43:07

does it turn into sin when

43:10

he falls into temptation, Allow that

43:12

temptation to turn into desire is

43:14

sinful desire. That's

43:16

kind of continue with that

43:18

illustration if he. If.

43:20

His eyes do that. And he

43:22

caught it. Does. This Yeah, it's

43:24

It's funny that you node job talk

43:27

about. he made a covenant with his

43:29

eyes. Man, we sin with our eyes.

43:33

Arm. And would

43:35

you like this? Women's. In with

43:37

their eyes by their I'm. Learning

43:41

that kid. you know that that that one

43:43

lash out that can knock knock down a

43:45

man. But we

43:47

do we. We sin with her

43:49

eyes and and will follow her

43:52

and can do this. And and

43:54

six eight Which then what begins,

43:56

the thought and the fantasizing. That's

43:58

the difference between attempt. In

44:00

an actual temptation? Not a sin. Many.

44:03

It's he can't that was. You can't

44:05

help but that a beautiful woman walked

44:07

by arm. And it doesn't even

44:09

necessarily need. To be that she was what

44:11

are it's you know, a short sleeved shirt

44:14

off every could just as a beautiful woman

44:16

and but then and then he begins fantasizing

44:18

or he begins walking after or whatever. A

44:20

or just even in his mind undressing her

44:22

that is a simple desire arm or even

44:25

think about that's not even talk about the

44:27

sex like this whole side be if he

44:29

thinks about what she's so beautiful, I'm enjoying

44:31

her beauty and I would love to just

44:34

get to know her and just have some

44:36

one on one time with their and take

44:38

her out to dinner. That.

44:41

Is. Also, sin and we have

44:43

to call that out and when

44:45

we get to the point when

44:48

we are not willing to call

44:50

outs in. Call. People

44:52

to repentance. Even it

44:54

as if we go through the whole

44:57

matthew eighteen go to them. Bring.

44:59

To them bring it to the

45:01

church for for redemptive church discipline

45:03

were no longer the church. that's

45:05

the main line denominators. They did

45:07

that like the one thing that

45:09

marks what the mainline denominations did.

45:11

I would say i'm in many

45:13

things, but definitely they walked away

45:15

from scripture. But to they no

45:17

longer discipline. And

45:20

if we're unwilling linen actually

45:22

reverse side be they very

45:24

much are against discipline, They

45:26

are very much against calling

45:28

someone to repentance. If

45:30

the you know where still goes

45:33

to in his part of an

45:35

eight you know the Anglican church

45:37

and he has no issues have

45:39

any communion with a this a

45:41

so called same sex marriage a

45:43

couple and down he wouldn't call

45:45

them to repentance. That's.

45:47

When a church is no longer a

45:50

church, yeah that's when it is a

45:52

longer of christians of this is what.

45:54

We're not just talking. We're not quibbling

45:56

over workers. This truly is a different

45:58

gospel. It's not even. Got my me

46:00

as your book another does. This goes right

46:03

along in line with that and so much

46:05

of you know. I mean this is why

46:07

are ministry's dubbed yeah we're not addressing exact.

46:09

With and things. We. Are addressing

46:12

the same thing. It's another gospel

46:14

You know? So much of Revised

46:16

is all about deconstruction. It's all

46:18

about us are taking what. You.

46:20

Know these biblical truth and sort of tweaking in

46:22

in once again. ah you know I'm a retired

46:24

the one that says we don't need more nuance,

46:27

what we need is more of Jesus and that's

46:29

so true that there's so much that with new

46:31

one thing to death were. Truth. Is

46:33

no longer true. Did

46:40

you know that the vast majority of

46:42

the need that you buy in the

46:44

store especially the beast is often imported

46:47

and comes from countries and farms? The

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don't have the highest quality standards or

46:51

transparency. In fact over eighty five percent

46:53

of the grass said these that you

46:55

buy in a store is imported over

46:57

five At the Just get wrap your

46:59

head around this. five billion. That and

47:01

billion with a d pounds of meat

47:03

was imported just last year. and since

47:05

these customers are buying from places that

47:07

don't necessarily share their values and this

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48:30

you can nuance the entire meaning out

48:32

and of out of words two minutes.

48:34

Some some things are good to apply,

48:37

new ones. We don't want to be

48:39

blockheads as we approach things and have

48:41

just you know broad categories with at

48:43

the same time. I think what what

48:45

happens with the nuance conversation is that

48:47

people are using the word nuance, but

48:49

what they really mean is Ip station

48:51

so they're actually bringing confusion into something

48:53

that should. Be very clear. I.

48:55

Would even say actually nuance What

48:57

they really mean is deconstruction. Yeah

49:00

right, exactly. Yes! I

49:02

mean once is to days.

49:04

Reconstruction. And in the church

49:06

so actually Lisa and even used to wouldn't

49:09

want city. yeah but I you that a

49:11

lot to the like but you said that

49:13

was that time. But some kill their seeds

49:15

were. it's like we could be nuanced and

49:17

tried that stuff. Oh and J. O

49:20

Two or abuse today when I hear

49:22

someone use nuance with the really doing

49:24

is deconstructing. That's. A

49:26

that is really. That's. A Very.

49:29

Astute inside their yeah well well okay. speaking

49:31

of deconstruction, I want to get to this

49:33

and Thousand Babylon Conference. but I do want

49:35

to just touch on one more thing as

49:38

we put a pin in this kind of

49:40

foundational per to the podcast where we just

49:42

helping people understand what time it is, where

49:44

we're at what's being taught For the person

49:46

who struggles with same sex attraction, how does

49:48

this apply And I want you to get

49:50

very practical because I'm sure a lot of

49:52

people the it could sound condemning to say

49:54

same sex desire is a cent will. What

49:56

does that mean for the person who struggles

49:59

with. This desire. That just a Twenty Four

50:01

Seven there in sin and they just need to

50:03

be like a refund or a Paribas. how does

50:05

this work? Because I I I didn't have a

50:07

lot of compassion for it for how this might

50:09

be being perceived because I think I have some

50:12

oh Cd tendencies and that would be probably my

50:14

tendency would be the Us. Oh I thought it

50:16

had to repent and then it's almost can become

50:18

this bondage. this way of living in bondage. to

50:20

this making sir you repenting just for feeling the

50:22

feeling of read. You know Twenty Four Seven does

50:25

help us with.talk to the person who might be

50:27

struggling with same sex attraction and what is it

50:29

that were really. Saying to them. And.

50:31

At this is also good reminder of what

50:33

you said of your own. Your.

50:35

Own your own Juri were at a

50:38

time you just felt so sorry for

50:40

people like me. You're like like I

50:42

have it harder and I actually to

50:44

be honest with you your sentiment is

50:47

very common in the church spirit all

50:49

the time. Were pastors will say oh

50:51

these gay christians you commit to a

50:53

church they have more faith in you

50:55

that Enzo Com and the Stanley said

50:58

that noom. I just really really clear

51:00

even though that's the upcoming I'm glad

51:02

that people have compassion for me. I'm

51:04

not saying he. Allowed don't have compassion

51:06

for me. But here's the issue. I don't

51:09

have it harder than any. Well when as

51:11

yeah. I. Don't have

51:13

this bigger cross to bear.

51:15

Jesus says if anyone. Would.

51:18

Come after me. Jesus's you must

51:20

like. Not an option. You must

51:23

do what? Deny yourself. Take up

51:25

your cross and follow me. So.

51:28

Is there a sense worth every moment

51:30

of the day? I must be vigilant.

51:32

Yes. Is this a sense where Jesus

51:34

and God wants you to keep. Beating.

51:36

Yourself up know? honestly?

51:39

To. Me for me to remind

51:41

myself that. I've. Actually,

51:43

no different than you manually said. like

51:46

you gotta deny yourself every day ticket

51:48

be cross everyday. use those sinful temptations

51:50

that comic externally or from what they

51:52

are, those desires that might be kind

51:55

of beginning. We got both of us,

51:57

your husband, the it of my mom,

51:59

my. Family, you know, resort area I

52:01

L l a all of you listening. Right

52:03

now all of us we need to be

52:06

vigilant in a positive sense, in a very

52:08

hopeful sense in a very. Jesus.

52:11

As this either got angeles give

52:13

these got this in a very

52:15

positive way and to me that

52:17

encourage me Encouraging Why? I'm

52:20

not different than anyone else that. Hate.

52:23

Is. Is. Trying to make

52:25

and maybe you're watching right right

52:27

now and maybe you struggle with

52:30

things that attracted and maybe your

52:32

identifying as a gay some christian.

52:35

And you think oh i just

52:37

you know the worst or to

52:39

the church is treating me so

52:41

different Don't believe that will I

52:43

be increased that your burden. It.

52:46

Is Big Big. It is

52:48

great. But Jesus is greater

52:50

and let link arms with

52:52

others in the body of

52:54

Christ. Don't form like a

52:56

new church. That's that's a

52:58

armed. But go to a

53:01

strong Bible believing church and I

53:03

know that not all churches hazard,

53:05

but you gotta look for a

53:07

strong, solid church that preaching to

53:09

the bible, expository reaching that has

53:11

good understanding of what the body

53:13

of Christ is with had ship

53:15

that does redemptive discipline that encourages

53:18

us all of us in our

53:20

own sins, struggles to pursue holiness,

53:22

link arm with others. Don't come

53:24

out of the closet, but be

53:26

open. With a handful of people, don't announce it

53:28

on. Facebook. Ah, but.

53:31

Tell others a few others that you trust

53:33

in that get that can walk with you

53:35

because that's what has done for me and

53:38

and what what I'm seeing. You know when

53:40

the natural state minute I came out this

53:42

is a six seven eight years ago just

53:44

side be world. just they just blew a

53:46

gasket. You know they did and why? because

53:49

it felt like he was attacking them. See

53:51

how they say oh well you know we

53:53

don't think this is my identity But then

53:55

when we talked about this concept, what are

53:58

they do they tickets. Of personally. Ptsd.

54:00

They've been so traumatised. why

54:02

should they can't separate who

54:04

they are from their sexuality?

54:06

They cannot. as I could

54:08

not before I did Christ.

54:11

I couldn't hit my sin

54:13

without hating myself. Now

54:15

that I know Christ this is

54:17

the freedom elisa this is encouraging

54:19

parts. I can hate my sin

54:21

without hating myself. Yet so this

54:24

of humans is sanctification and the

54:26

hope that we have is that

54:28

in Christ and also in the

54:30

body of Christ we can do

54:32

this together that we must always

54:35

be looking at. My. Heart my

54:37

mind, my thoughts and submitted all to

54:39

Christ and I think that to me

54:41

he is super encouraging because I'm doing

54:43

this along and community that I'm no

54:45

different than and than everyone else. Can

54:48

I love that? Okay so let's let's

54:50

talk about the Sex Thousand Babylon Conference

54:52

and the reason want to bring this

54:54

up is because ah a few weeks

54:56

ago, maybe now couple months ago I

54:58

let's talk about I talked about this

55:00

when I had resigned on the podcast.

55:02

Nicer that you and I are going

55:05

a customer and are going to take

55:07

a little deeper into this because I

55:09

was a I'll be honest I was

55:11

really appalled when I saw that the

55:13

Thinkers list for this conference that this

55:15

is being marketed as a safe and

55:17

biblically faithful conference. And on. So I

55:19

I mentioned that you know I I

55:21

I told people just go Gone website,

55:23

take a look at his speaking, take

55:25

a look at the way thing presented

55:27

and you have. You're going to find

55:29

speakers that one and identifies as trans

55:31

One that is an you know that

55:33

you didn't cross. Oh yeah and there's

55:35

all the I'll There's lots of different

55:37

pronouns going on there are there's a

55:39

full eve affirming progressive Christian. There is

55:41

brands on who is a he wouldn't

55:43

can brains on would not call himself

55:45

a progressive Christian but he's one of

55:47

the most popular. Figures in progress of

55:49

Christianity and in my view is one

55:51

of the most dangerous teachers out there

55:53

because he uses so much language that

55:56

sounds orthodox. but but I and I'm

55:58

gonna read some quotes from his. For

56:00

people who are in me, maybe don't believe me,

56:02

you're not. You know, you don't really know who

56:04

he has. I'm gonna read some quotes from his

56:07

book and so that response though with that will

56:09

hey, this is just at a conference where people

56:11

are invited to bring their very different opinions and

56:13

you know we. We get up on the platform

56:16

and we hashed out what we think. And there's

56:18

not this assumption that everybody always agrees on everything

56:20

and and that most people would probably disagree with

56:22

the progress of Christian if he were to bring

56:25

that up. but he's not talking about that issue

56:27

anyway. Skis is talking about deconstruction, which by the

56:29

way, I'm. Like I said in in

56:31

the spirit of knowing what time it is

56:33

and that we are in the negative world

56:35

let me to say to everyone out there

56:38

this is such a progressive christian move. I've

56:40

had this said to me more times than

56:42

people who are heading toward progressive christianity where

56:44

you bring up a concern that this happened

56:46

with a pastor that in my actual life

56:48

where I said hates passer and I was

56:50

very respectful about it. I said i don't

56:52

know if you're aware of this but the

56:54

the person you have coming into speak for

56:56

your men's conference is fully affirming of Lgbtq

56:59

art or I just wanted to know If

57:01

you are i assume you're not aware of

57:03

that are you wouldn't have invited him for

57:05

the response that I got back was will

57:07

all will he's not here to talk about

57:09

that. Easier to talk about other issues and

57:11

men's issues in such a move it and

57:13

I'm sorry but with the way somebody. Openly.

57:16

Teaches about these things, matters, rights, And

57:18

so one of the responses to that

57:21

criticism was that, well, this that that.

57:23

This is the type of conference that's

57:25

kinda like people get up and they

57:28

give their different views and then the

57:30

audience decides on. Okay, fair enough. I'm

57:32

not against having debate platforms. I've done

57:34

the Just and Brierley show a couple

57:37

of times where I had a conversation

57:39

with people that disagreed with me on

57:41

a particular topic. But I think of

57:44

course with the Unbelievable Podcast.with clearly clearly

57:46

marketed. As a debate like we have

57:48

this person on the side and this person

57:50

on the site and going to try to

57:52

hear both sides. Fair enough, but I would

57:55

say this there is nothing on The Exiles

57:57

and Babylon. Website. That.

58:00

The case that this is any sort of

58:02

a debate platform. So let me just read

58:04

the. Com Bird. Description

58:06

here: It's has to be a christian is to

58:08

be in exile. The bible has a name for

58:11

the country. Be been exiled to Babylon. I mean

58:13

already it's assuming like we are. With

58:15

beat. These people are. Be here.

58:17

We're over here. We are exiled And

58:19

Babylon. As exiles and Babylon we need

58:22

to think biblically Christian Li and indeed

58:24

exactly not partisan Li Through cultural and

58:26

political issues this year or topics include:

58:29

Deconstruction, Reconstruction and The Gospel Women Power

58:31

and Abuse in the Church, Lgbtq People

58:33

and The Church Christians and Politics Three

58:36

Approaches To The only indication that was

58:38

gonna be any debate is potentially with

58:40

that Christians and Politics three approaches Session:

58:43

Where there's gonna be three different viewpoints

58:45

given. So. That you know if it

58:47

is known as some kind of like a

58:49

debate saying it certainly isn't being communicated that

58:51

way on the website. What? What people are

58:53

going to think going to this is they're

58:55

going to think, oh, I'm going to learn

58:57

how to be biblical, how to be christian,

58:59

how to live exotically, and how to do

59:01

these things and a biblical and christian lay.

59:03

Not necessarily that I'm going to get a

59:06

smorgasbord of use that I get to pick

59:08

from. Have some just saying It's it's it's

59:10

deceptive in that sense. That is that is

59:12

the goal and that is what is known

59:14

about. It is certainly isn't being. Communicated on

59:16

the website and so I'm gonna throw

59:18

it over t that I know you

59:20

have quite a bit to say about.

59:22

This. Conference. And in the

59:25

guys, again, we're not. We're not just

59:27

picking on people this is so important

59:29

are going to be impressionable people who

59:31

want to be biblical, who want to

59:33

have the right view these things and

59:35

they're gonna go to something like this.

59:37

and I think it's they're going to

59:39

be deceived. It's going to be very

59:41

confusing and an Odyssey this final thing

59:43

before a throwback over to you Christopher

59:45

that I've seen this in the deconstruction

59:47

movements so often is that there is

59:49

this idea and it's very individualistic. and

59:51

it's very postmodern. but it's this. Idea

59:54

that I need to make

59:56

my mind up on absolutely

59:58

every single solitary. This

1:00:00

in and so at the I need to

1:00:02

go read of for Views on Hell Book.

1:00:04

Any to go read this cannabis and listen.

1:00:06

I know people can pull clips and and

1:00:09

make you say what you're not saying some

1:00:11

of your it clear what I'm not saying.

1:00:13

I'm not saying that you shouldn't think theologically

1:00:15

and make sure your positions are correct on

1:00:17

all these things. Absolutely. But maybe before you

1:00:20

go read your for Views of Hell Book

1:00:22

may be read the Westminster Catechism, the Heidelberg

1:00:24

Concession, the the Anglican articles read at the

1:00:26

the Major Detonation Creed, the Apostles predicting treats.

1:00:28

Read all of these concessions. And

1:00:30

you're going to find a core where you

1:00:32

don't. You know you don't need a for

1:00:35

views on on hell books because the church

1:00:37

has decided this spirit There is a very

1:00:39

clear understanding of how throughout search history and

1:00:41

we we live in such an individualistic time

1:00:43

where we think oh you know I just

1:00:45

have to pick in the and. Figure.

1:00:48

Out all this stuff, much smarter people than

1:00:50

us. Throat hurts. History have figured a lot

1:00:52

of this out. Now I'm not. There are

1:00:54

enough creeds are fallible. they're subject to script

1:00:56

sir, but there should be respectful I to

1:00:58

history with somebody things because this is what

1:01:01

I see and deconstruction is that people think

1:01:03

it's just like of the say i'm gonna

1:01:05

pick my view as hell I'm in a

1:01:07

pick my view of this And yeah there

1:01:09

are some have to try to avoid using

1:01:11

using the word new Us. There are some

1:01:13

differences among say for christians on. Topics.

1:01:16

Of. Course not denying not. But like

1:01:19

Christmas said, you can nuance yourself

1:01:21

out of meaning and I think

1:01:23

you know. Read. Some of

1:01:25

that stuff. Going back to the early church

1:01:27

fathers and realize that some things are to

1:01:29

settled you don't eat out. Of. The say okay,

1:01:32

I'm thirty, you know. So

1:01:34

much to say. So much to on

1:01:37

appears the thing. Is,

1:01:40

you're right. There's nothing on the

1:01:42

website and even looking at the

1:01:45

past, there's nothing that there was

1:01:47

a debate like. we're actually gonna

1:01:49

have some. Cordial,

1:01:51

Yet sharp, Debate.

1:01:54

Over. These. Distinctions.

1:01:58

And. And here's here's my. The a big

1:02:00

of a big it was even said oh this

1:02:02

is like each yes that for those of you

1:02:04

unfamiliar with ever jug of the Alaska Society and

1:02:06

you become a member are two ways. You have

1:02:09

to have it a doctorate. If you don't have

1:02:11

a doctorate you have to get special permission as

1:02:13

a student or whatever or you had lot of

1:02:15

i'm. Ah, you might have a

1:02:17

masters and you have a lot of experience in

1:02:19

ministry and that you've done the kind of academic

1:02:21

work so that they haven't got the Alaska Society.

1:02:23

The second thing is you hold it in Nc

1:02:25

And let me let me be clear. The.

1:02:28

Theology in Iraq Conference is not he

1:02:30

T S and I'll tell you why.

1:02:33

An end to the of for for

1:02:36

people to say and defended. Impressive to

1:02:38

say this is just like each. yes

1:02:40

that's again misleading. Each

1:02:43

he has is very cool. Clearly an

1:02:45

academic organization where you have to have

1:02:47

a Phd each just to get in.

1:02:50

Exile in Babylon is being couch

1:02:52

to lay people. Not. Only

1:02:54

that but the center for you

1:02:57

know what it whatever is is

1:02:59

actually. They're. Looking

1:03:01

for. Youth. And

1:03:04

young adults that and that are so

1:03:06

impressionable and so I again I want

1:03:08

to remind people of diverse. If anyone

1:03:11

were to cause any of these little

1:03:13

ones who believe me to sin it

1:03:15

be better for him to have a

1:03:17

great millstone fast and around his neck

1:03:19

and to be drowned in the death

1:03:22

of the city. I don't I can.

1:03:24

There's countless stories that I know of

1:03:26

churches that had to abort the video

1:03:28

series of press and because they said

1:03:30

all or use that were confused. Yes,

1:03:33

the further lesson for. All. Of

1:03:35

the gay marriage but then everything else

1:03:37

l after that like either contradicted are

1:03:39

there confuse the was all stories. Here's

1:03:41

another post modern approach. Everything stories. Yeah.

1:03:44

Everything's nip. That

1:03:46

so postmodern, that so progressive

1:03:48

that is very much deconstruction,

1:03:50

just stories. And

1:03:53

so if it's anything like the

1:03:55

past Exiles in Babylon Conferences if

1:03:57

is anything like Preston's normal. The

1:04:00

video you know sort of when you guessed

1:04:02

people that are really hear it takes A

1:04:04

or people that have different views it's a

1:04:06

love fest you know all wasn't as he

1:04:08

know and and a kind of there's and

1:04:10

there's actually no sharp criticism. In

1:04:12

accord your way which I think we can do

1:04:14

that. This is where you're wrong. This is where

1:04:17

you're wrong. And

1:04:19

I'm. We're. Not talking about.

1:04:22

I guess we have different views on.

1:04:25

The. Sign gifts or baptism.

1:04:28

Am are you know these You know

1:04:30

even on the Sabbath we can have

1:04:32

I don't have an issue with maybe

1:04:34

have of for views thing him when

1:04:37

he are an editor for a book

1:04:39

for a for Views on Sin. On

1:04:42

sexual immorality. That's

1:04:45

when we're blurring the lines right and that

1:04:47

on were leading little wants to send. Impressed

1:04:49

and. Edited the book On

1:04:51

for views on on on thin

1:04:53

and on same sex In that's

1:04:56

where we blur the lines. Yet

1:04:58

sat on morality is not like

1:05:01

baptism. Don't. Don't

1:05:03

confuse the two so thats where

1:05:05

another a distinction So many. And

1:05:07

money pop in and offers suggested one clarification when

1:05:09

I talk about the for these of hell but

1:05:12

what I would I said have been clear about

1:05:14

saying is that what I'm saying is that universalism

1:05:16

is being brought in as a legitimate position and

1:05:18

some people are more than and but I become

1:05:20

a universalist or do I believe hell a little

1:05:22

replace and so that's really more what I'm and

1:05:25

I think that's more in the land along the

1:05:27

lines of what you're saying if it's for different

1:05:29

views on a particular topic that are all with

1:05:31

an orthodox christianity that are gonna from the and

1:05:33

air and sea of scripture and all that and

1:05:36

yeah that's I think that's. Fine but maybe first

1:05:38

rate all this creates a kind of see that

1:05:40

the heart of of with the what the agreement

1:05:42

has been for two thousand years and that yeah

1:05:44

the i just want to offer that clarification. Go!

1:05:46

Had. A little something it and I

1:05:48

wanted bring that up to on help because I think.

1:05:51

What? Most people don't realize you

1:05:53

know, even with with Campus Crusade

1:05:55

like the if they're strictly using

1:05:57

Preston's material like the and stuff.

1:06:00

Then came in and said wow did you

1:06:02

use the library Butterfields are like courtroom and

1:06:04

and stuff like all with that the you

1:06:06

know the asked used as you stronger that's

1:06:08

whatever it is and what people don't know.

1:06:11

Ah, This is the largest of

1:06:13

Angeles Stick organization which is done great

1:06:15

things around the world over the years.

1:06:17

I'm a Bill Bright kid. he spoke

1:06:19

a mile island as he did such

1:06:22

amazing things. And

1:06:24

they're using a person that

1:06:26

denies health. So.

1:06:29

Preston wrote the book for practice channel racing hell

1:06:31

and he's changed. His views are nicer in I

1:06:34

know he'd images at you know it's only five

1:06:36

percent difference in I've made Well. My.

1:06:39

Because it looked outside the bible. My

1:06:41

favorite quotes comes from Charles Virgin. Discernment.

1:06:45

Is not knowing the difference between right and

1:06:48

wrong. It's. Knowing the difference

1:06:50

between right and almost right. Satan.

1:06:53

Tempted cheeses with Scripture right from right

1:06:55

from scripture and it's just a little

1:06:58

bit off. Ah, so you know that

1:07:00

you know your ears. The New Ones

1:07:02

part. Well, it's basically does Will press

1:07:04

and said he hopes to how he

1:07:07

does he will say he'd they are.

1:07:09

I do, but he's nuanced it to

1:07:11

the point to be really a New

1:07:13

Ones and Nine election with them. So

1:07:16

he it's temporal punishment so you're punished

1:07:18

for it time and then you're nine.

1:07:20

They did so. in other words, it's

1:07:22

still annihilation. And so and yet

1:07:24

you we have the grace of Angeles

1:07:27

you can they use hell and they're

1:07:29

using someone. This is of total hermeneutics.

1:07:31

on your be one hell and you

1:07:33

be on sexuality where you are taking

1:07:35

court doctrines of of scripture. Hell.

1:07:38

Which has an impish to happen. If

1:07:40

get the hell is the braille wise

1:07:42

than haven't. Ah my cat

1:07:44

that be temporary arm and a

1:07:46

sexual morality. Well marriages you know

1:07:48

the sin. Sexual morality is just

1:07:50

the act that creature never set

1:07:52

as says like that. So we

1:07:54

need to be clear and churches

1:07:56

as well. I mean the trust

1:07:58

us hosting this Calvary. Black

1:08:00

Lab Smith Man of God he was.

1:08:02

He was so clear and I think

1:08:05

Calvary Chapel that that the pasture and

1:08:07

when I was spoke they're just a

1:08:09

few months ago I had helpless people

1:08:11

from that church come to me and

1:08:14

talk to me and they went to

1:08:16

the elders. They went to the pasture

1:08:18

and the exact excuse that you gave.

1:08:21

A Lisa was exactly what they

1:08:23

were told. oh is just a

1:08:25

debate were just discussing. Here's the

1:08:27

thing. We. Can discuss

1:08:29

about. You. Know. If

1:08:32

baptist them. But when we're discussing

1:08:34

about. Whether. Something is center not

1:08:37

what are they doing that? Well let's look at some

1:08:39

of their their speakers. So we

1:08:41

have Tim Whitaker. From

1:08:44

the new Evansville. You.

1:08:46

Know. To Yeah Yeah I Do Not

1:08:48

Am Yeah. Is. Unapologetically.

1:08:52

Gay. Affirming. Guess. What

1:08:54

would you give someone who's a

1:08:56

false teacher? Ah, that. Even

1:08:58

a platform. Is

1:09:01

they're going to be. Again,

1:09:03

is the Cts I don't even know

1:09:06

Pts would would have happened Speak at

1:09:08

that. I can almost guarantee they would

1:09:10

not. And

1:09:13

I'm. You know, Is

1:09:15

this legit Us? or

1:09:17

is this actually normalizing?

1:09:20

Sin. I. Is is not

1:09:22

hiding false teaching and heresy because that

1:09:24

that exactly is what it is on

1:09:27

the other two views on sexuality. I'm

1:09:29

just going to list the different people

1:09:31

that they have that all side be.

1:09:34

All. real voice they don't have one

1:09:36

speaker from revise brenna blame twenty twenty four

1:09:38

revised because she's a contemporary theologian which i

1:09:40

think it's funny everyone's that the a lot

1:09:43

now especially contemporary whatever that means great courses

1:09:45

on staff full time staff he's the one

1:09:47

that advocates for gay marriage without the sex

1:09:49

he'll just ones it to call it a

1:09:52

a a celibate partnership and again i'm not

1:09:54

i'm not attacking people i know greg an

1:09:56

oppressed and they're both very nice people they've

1:09:58

been super nice to But

1:10:01

if we love someone, we're going

1:10:03

to call people to repentance and

1:10:05

stop teaching these false teachings. Why?

1:10:07

Because, oh to us, whoever

1:10:09

causes one of these little ones, believe

1:10:12

in me to sin. It'd be better

1:10:14

for Milstone. I don't want no Milstone.

1:10:16

And so we have Laura

1:10:19

Creek, you know, on the board member of

1:10:23

persons board, regular at Revoice and call

1:10:25

it a mixed orientation marriage. A

1:10:28

marriage doesn't have a sexual orientation. These

1:10:31

are just marriages between a man and a woman. You

1:10:34

know, I don't think, you know, a

1:10:36

husband should say, you know, this is

1:10:38

a lustful marriage. You

1:10:41

know, it's a marriage. Why should you,

1:10:43

why does the whole world need to know

1:10:46

that you're not attracted to your spouse? I

1:10:48

mean, that's poor spouse. Well,

1:10:51

that would be like saying to me with

1:10:53

that mixed orientation marriage language, it's so

1:10:56

weird because think about, you know, a lot

1:10:58

of men are attracted to all, you know,

1:11:00

a lot of women, a lot of different

1:11:02

women, right? So most, if

1:11:04

you applied this consistently, you'd have

1:11:06

to say we're in a

1:11:08

mixed attraction marriage because maybe the woman is

1:11:11

only attracted to her husband, but the husband's

1:11:13

attracted to lots of women. So we're just

1:11:15

going to like call the caller marriage that

1:11:17

that would be so nobody would do that

1:11:19

because if you know what the man

1:11:22

is hopefully wanting to do is

1:11:24

to focus on his wife and,

1:11:27

you know, I don't know. That's just so

1:11:29

weird to me. Well, even let's

1:11:31

just say if your wife had an

1:11:33

accident, you know, I mean like a wife, not

1:11:35

your wife, a wife has an accident and

1:11:37

she is in a wheelchair now and it's

1:11:40

just, you know, when

1:11:42

you're in a wheelchair and you're quadriplegic or whatever, I mean,

1:11:45

there's not a lot that unless you had someone, you know,

1:11:47

help you. You're going to lose some

1:11:49

of that beauty as we age,

1:11:51

I'm getting older, three, I'm

1:11:53

not looking and I was not attractive

1:11:55

before, but a beautiful woman in her

1:11:57

20s, 30s. She's

1:12:00

50, so her husband is

1:12:02

no longer attracted to her, so should he proclaim

1:12:05

that to everyone and tell that to

1:12:07

the, you know, I mean, and again,

1:12:09

that physical part, I mean, of course,

1:12:12

he should, there's so much beauty goes

1:12:14

beyond just the

1:12:17

physical and, and, but,

1:12:19

but we need to see that that, you

1:12:21

know, but don't confuse beauty also does mean the

1:12:24

physical as well. So we

1:12:26

need to be, you know, just be clear

1:12:28

with our language, not be confiscating and trying

1:12:30

to, you know, make everything ambiguous, but other

1:12:33

speakers. So the list doesn't end there. We

1:12:35

have Art Pereira, who's been on the

1:12:37

webinars a lot. He's a director of events

1:12:40

and partnerships for ReVoice. Evan

1:12:42

Wickham, he's actually a pretty

1:12:44

well-known musician. Brother

1:12:48

is also a musician and he regularly

1:12:50

leads music at ReVoice. And then

1:12:52

you have, like you said,

1:12:54

Kate LaPrairie, who is transgender Christian.

1:12:57

She says she's transgender. And

1:13:00

so there's, there is not multiple,

1:13:03

it's very

1:13:05

clear the direction of this and

1:13:07

really what it is, is trying to

1:13:10

mainstream these ideas and put in this

1:13:12

soup and then people will come and

1:13:14

they have like, you know, people

1:13:17

that I think don't really even

1:13:19

know what's, you know, you know, Max Lucato is

1:13:21

coming. And I think they

1:13:25

had other like well-known people in the past.

1:13:28

I don't think they really knew the

1:13:30

depth of all this, this teaching and

1:13:33

this confusion. So in other words,

1:13:35

Max Lucato is going

1:13:38

to be sharing, you

1:13:40

know, basically in the same

1:13:42

conference that a gay affirming who

1:13:45

said gay myth is okay

1:13:47

and he's going to be sharing that stage.

1:13:50

I just, I wonder if people are

1:13:52

truly okay with that. And I think, you

1:13:56

know, even the church, Calvary Chapel, I mean, I

1:13:58

think we should be concerned. I'm

1:14:00

a huge fan of them and

1:14:03

and even a local Calvary Chapel in

1:14:05

the same city had no idea that

1:14:07

it was going on Because

1:14:10

it's always Couched in

1:14:12

oh or even you know, we're being

1:14:14

missional. Mm-hmm The

1:14:17

biggest argument that I often hear I just want

1:14:19

to be really clear Missional

1:14:22

does not mean you use

1:14:24

sin to win the lost

1:14:27

Yeah, that's bait and switch. You

1:14:29

don't use on you don't use

1:14:32

lies. For example, there's no such

1:14:34

thing as Sin

1:14:37

hospitality or a lie hospitality

1:14:39

known as pronoun hospitality I'm not going to

1:14:42

use a lie to try to win someone

1:14:44

to Christ You

1:14:46

just use the gospel you use hospitality

1:14:50

True hospitality by actions, you know

1:14:52

you hospitality is not words Because

1:14:55

that's what I would call lip service like

1:14:58

when when I was one to Christ

1:15:00

It was not through lip service that

1:15:03

pronoun hospitality is lip service yeah, show

1:15:05

the love of Christ through your actions

1:15:07

invite someone in their home and Invite

1:15:11

others who are believers like if they won't

1:15:13

go to church Which the church is not

1:15:15

a building we need to bring the church

1:15:17

to them and that's exactly what what one?

1:15:19

Resire to Christ what one need a Christ. So

1:15:22

it's the wrong category when we try to use missional

1:15:26

to refer to Groups again

1:15:29

people argue, you know, we're not talking about

1:15:31

people but here's the thing just by saying

1:15:33

that this is missional shows that

1:15:35

missional means you're trying to reach a certain

1:15:37

people group and Ethnicity that this

1:15:40

is part of their who they are that this

1:15:42

is essential to who they are Chinese

1:15:45

like if you if missional means when

1:15:47

I go to China, I'm gonna learn that language.

1:15:49

I'm gonna learn their culture I'm gonna learn everything

1:15:51

about them and try to adapt that in my

1:15:53

evangelism But I'm not

1:15:55

going to use something that is

1:15:58

sin or untrue that missional I'm

1:16:00

not going to use Buddha. I'm

1:16:03

not going to use ancestry worship to try

1:16:05

to win someone to Christ. That's

1:16:07

what pronoun hospitality is. Trying

1:16:10

to use Buddha and idol ancient

1:16:13

worship to try to win someone to Christ. That

1:16:16

is bait and switch. But

1:16:19

also my Chinese-ness

1:16:21

is not the same thing as

1:16:24

my sexuality. One

1:16:26

is an essential category. One is

1:16:28

an existential category. So again, side B

1:16:31

keeps saying we're not talking about identity,

1:16:33

but they are. Just by saying missional

1:16:35

shows that they believe this is an

1:16:38

actual people group, not talking about a

1:16:40

sin category. This is not about a

1:16:42

people group. This is about people who

1:16:44

struggle with sin. And

1:16:46

when we put it in the

1:16:49

wrong category, that's when our response

1:16:51

is going to be incorrect. So

1:16:54

we ultimately, as many

1:16:56

of us know, the whole Andy Stanley.

1:17:01

So it's not just people like

1:17:05

Andy Stanley, but those

1:17:09

that defended people like Andy Stanley or Rob

1:17:11

Bell, let's go even further back. I mean,

1:17:13

I feel like Andy Stanley was

1:17:15

kind of Rob Bell 2.0 and Preston,

1:17:17

I feel like is Rob Bell 3.0

1:17:20

or Andy Stanley 2.0. And

1:17:23

people are like, no, no, no, it's

1:17:25

not like people were defending Rob Bell,

1:17:27

defending Andy Stanley. Are they

1:17:30

going to be held responsible? Is God

1:17:32

going to hold them accountable for defending

1:17:34

these people when they were wrong? And

1:17:36

hopefully those that were defending would then

1:17:38

say, I was wrong. I repent. But

1:17:42

they're still responsible for then leading people

1:17:44

astray because as we see, where's Andy?

1:17:46

And it'll find so interesting that the

1:17:48

day after the unconditional conference of Andy

1:17:50

Stanley, what did he do?

1:17:53

He had a sermon. He began

1:17:56

With saying marriage is between a man

1:17:58

and a woman. A

1:18:00

great and could always go back to that.

1:18:02

but then if you if you listen to

1:18:04

the entire rest of the sermon. Essentially,

1:18:07

it was just. Completely

1:18:09

obfuscating it at best and completely

1:18:11

negating it and contradict during it.

1:18:13

can dig, dig it at worse

1:18:15

and battle So I mean yes,

1:18:17

presence We go read a book

1:18:19

on and why marriage fundamental want.

1:18:22

but if we reach carefully it's

1:18:24

just the ah, the sex that

1:18:26

makes it. You know that at

1:18:28

it he walks limits sexual and

1:18:30

rally just to the act of

1:18:32

sex. not the desires, not the

1:18:34

romantic relationships so people can have

1:18:36

the cell but partnerships, etc. And

1:18:38

it leaves. Room for that. And so

1:18:40

he has the and beacon people. To.

1:18:43

That just as we voice can have this statement

1:18:45

on their website, That's. Actually, Not.

1:18:47

Too bad written but then their whole

1:18:50

com almost it contradicts the that did

1:18:52

it they feel as for statement is

1:18:54

a doctrinal statement and and also you

1:18:57

know this book If you wiggle Why?

1:18:59

Which If married men, women, why would

1:19:01

you platform a person that denies that

1:19:03

Because if you are going to have

1:19:06

him there better be very very sharp

1:19:08

criticism. And maybe even beginning with Matthew

1:19:10

waiting for six, Whoever causes one of

1:19:12

these little ones to sin, it be

1:19:15

better for him to put have a

1:19:17

great millstone. Tied around the that's. What?

1:19:20

This is about so you know, kind

1:19:22

of just to wrap everything together. We're

1:19:24

not. Quibbling. Over all

1:19:26

birds were going over whether

1:19:28

a millstone should be tied

1:19:30

around these people. Were. Not

1:19:33

timeout. Lay people were talking

1:19:35

about church leaders. You

1:19:37

and I elisa we are held to

1:19:40

a higher standard. F. Because

1:19:42

not everyone is called to be

1:19:44

a teacher, not everyone is called

1:19:46

to be a public speaker. And

1:19:48

so. it's very sobering

1:19:50

and and i hope that people

1:19:53

would hear that this is in

1:19:55

love we are calling leaders to

1:19:57

repentance were calling lay people to

1:19:59

christ Not to be

1:20:01

just nicer, not to just love is another

1:20:03

thing. I hear people, well, my job is

1:20:05

to just love. I actually agree with that

1:20:07

now, Elisa. I say the issue with, my issue

1:20:10

with that is not the love. It's

1:20:12

the just. When we love,

1:20:14

we make love an end in itself. So

1:20:17

that, that's all we do is love. Love

1:20:20

doesn't save. Yes, God is love, but love

1:20:22

is not God. Our goal

1:20:24

is to love unto Christ. So love is

1:20:26

a means to an end and that end

1:20:29

must always be Christ. And we

1:20:31

don't see the holiness of God, Christ

1:20:33

exalted and him crucified, really

1:20:37

clearly articulated in re-voice

1:20:40

or exiles in Babylon. And I

1:20:42

just wouldn't encourage people, you know,

1:20:44

yes, read all these great confessions,

1:20:46

but just consume yourself with

1:20:49

the word of God. Attach yourself,

1:20:51

meditate on that. I mean, if you don't have

1:20:53

access to that, and if there's things you don't

1:20:56

agree with all of that, okay, just

1:21:00

ground yourself in the word of God and

1:21:02

continue to meditate on these beautiful

1:21:04

truths of God. That's good. Great.

1:21:06

Well, Christopher, I know that you have got

1:21:08

to go because you are gonna be heading

1:21:10

to the airport to catch a plane. I'm

1:21:13

gonna stay on for a few more minutes and

1:21:15

comment on a couple of the more progressive speakers

1:21:17

of exiles in Babylon. But Christopher, thank you so

1:21:19

much for joining us today. And

1:21:22

we pray you have a safe flight to wherever it is

1:21:24

you're going to do more speaking and may God bless you

1:21:26

with that. Thank you so

1:21:28

much, Elisa. I'm so grateful for you and your ministry.

1:21:31

Same, Christopher. All right, we'll talk to you soon. All

1:21:33

right, well, I just wanted to take a few

1:21:35

minutes and just comment on a couple of the

1:21:37

more progressive voices that are at the Exiles in

1:21:39

Babylon conference. And of course, Christopher mentioned Tim Whitaker

1:21:42

as one of those. And I mentioned that I

1:21:44

knew Tim personally, we've communicated

1:21:46

a little bit over social media and then

1:21:48

also met. Tim

1:21:50

was kind enough to meet with Tim

1:21:52

Barnett, my co-author and I, as we

1:21:54

were researching our deconstruction book and we

1:21:56

had a lengthy conversation via Zoom. We

1:21:58

had conversations with other. deconstructionists as

1:22:01

well, which we

1:22:03

of course kept anonymous. But since Tim had actually said

1:22:05

to his audience that he had met with us, I

1:22:08

can confirm we did. And just a

1:22:10

lovely guy. We had a very nice conversation, very

1:22:12

helpful. But at the same time, Tim

1:22:15

is a fully affirming progressive Christian, and

1:22:17

he's being featured at this conference where

1:22:19

it's supposed to be equipping people to

1:22:22

live as biblical Christians and to live

1:22:24

as exiles in Babylon, not to agree

1:22:26

with the ethics of Babylon at

1:22:28

the expense of Orthodox Christianity. So I

1:22:31

just think there's a very confusing

1:22:33

message being sent by this exiles

1:22:35

in Babylon conference. And the other

1:22:37

one that I wanted to talk to you a bit about is Brian

1:22:39

Zond. I mentioned earlier that Zond would not

1:22:42

call himself a progressive Christian. But

1:22:45

again, his views, his books,

1:22:47

his teachings are very influential

1:22:49

in progressive Christianity to

1:22:52

the point that he, I don't think it's

1:22:55

an exaggeration to put him under the umbrella of

1:22:57

progressive Christian. In fact, I quote him quite a

1:22:59

bit in my another gospel

1:23:01

book that interacts with progressive Christianity.

1:23:04

But I just want to read this to you from his book, Sinners in the

1:23:06

Hands of a Loving God. And I want

1:23:08

to recommend you listen to Mike Winger's review

1:23:10

of this book. You can go back

1:23:12

to his YouTube channel. He did a really good job of dealing with

1:23:14

this. But all throughout the

1:23:17

book, there's this sort of subtle undermining

1:23:19

of Scripture, acting like Scripture

1:23:21

isn't really giving the full picture of God,

1:23:23

that it portrays God as ways that

1:23:27

you know, where God isn't that way. And yet

1:23:29

Scripture portrays him that way. And then there's a

1:23:32

lot to it. I don't have time

1:23:34

to unpack the whole thing, but there's a lot of

1:23:36

kind of straw manning of Orthodox beliefs. And

1:23:40

but at the end of the book, this is just what

1:23:42

I want to read to you. Is he was thinking through

1:23:44

the issue of hell. He said,

1:23:46

one day I was sitting silently in

1:23:48

contemplative prayer. I whispered this to the

1:23:51

one who was there. And the one is with

1:23:53

a capital O. Father, I don't

1:23:55

believe you torture people for eternity. Then

1:23:58

I began to laugh. who

1:24:00

was there laughed too. There

1:24:02

was healing in that shared laughter. It

1:24:05

is such a ludicrous notion that God

1:24:07

who is love would of his own

1:24:09

volition inflict torment upon

1:24:12

people eternally. This idea is

1:24:14

so ridiculous that it is either hilarious or

1:24:16

horrendous. In that moment, we

1:24:19

chose to have a laugh about it. I'm

1:24:23

sorry, this is so disrespectful to the way

1:24:26

scripture portrays God's

1:24:28

holiness. Christopher

1:24:30

mentioned Preston Sprinkle's

1:24:32

view of hell. I'm not intimately familiar with

1:24:34

Preston's view on hell, but I will say

1:24:36

this about annihilationism. I

1:24:39

don't think someone is outside of the faith

1:24:41

if they hold to annihilationism, but it is

1:24:44

such a downgrade on God's holiness. Think

1:24:46

about a punishment for

1:24:48

a particular crime. We are not punished,

1:24:50

even in this world, for crimes just

1:24:53

based on the amount of time it took to commit the crime. If

1:24:56

you rob a bank, but it only took you four

1:24:58

minutes, you don't get four minutes in prison. It's according

1:25:00

to the weight of the crime. When you sit against

1:25:02

a holy God, the only option,

1:25:04

and I think this is biblical as well, is

1:25:06

that it's eternal. Christopher

1:25:09

is right about there's

1:25:11

even a verse in Matthew where it's juxtaposing

1:25:13

hell in heaven. If hell is temporary, then

1:25:15

heaven would by default have to be as

1:25:18

well. I reject annihilationism.

1:25:20

Again, I don't think somebody's not a Christian

1:25:22

if they believe that, but I

1:25:24

will say that universalism, I believe, is

1:25:26

not under the umbrella at all

1:25:28

of orthodox Christianity. It's not an orthodox position,

1:25:31

but in this paragraph, Brian Zond

1:25:34

is articulating his

1:25:36

wrestling with hell. Notice, I think there's a

1:25:38

little bit of a straw man here too,

1:25:41

because people who are talking about eternal conscious

1:25:43

torment, they're not necessarily using that word torture.

1:25:45

I wouldn't use the word torture either, but

1:25:48

he's saying that for people

1:25:50

to be punished and in torment eternally

1:25:52

is so ridiculous. It's either hilarious or

1:25:54

horrendous. He's basically his

1:25:57

hermeneutic on that is to talk to

1:25:59

some... imaginary figure that's

1:26:01

there because he's calling this person the one,

1:26:03

but this

1:26:06

is not how it works.

1:26:08

You don't just get in your closet

1:26:10

or wherever in contemplative prayer and get

1:26:12

some new revelations from God that contradict

1:26:14

Scripture in 2000 years of church history.

1:26:17

These are the people that are being teaching at

1:26:20

the Exiles in Babylon conference.

1:26:22

And I would just say, again, just to

1:26:24

wrap up, we are now

1:26:26

in the negative world, people. Welcome. I mean, this

1:26:29

is what time it is. We have

1:26:31

to be incredibly clear. And it's because

1:26:33

of our love for people who struggle.

1:26:36

It's because of our love for our kids and our neighbor

1:26:38

and all of those around us that we have to get

1:26:40

our theology right on this issue.

1:26:42

And so I hope

1:26:45

this has been helpful for you. Again, if

1:26:47

you want to subscribe on YouTube and hit

1:26:49

the notification bell, share this out on social

1:26:52

media, follow along on Facebook, Instagram, at Alisa

1:26:54

Childers, and also you can join our Patreon

1:26:56

community where you get access at

1:26:58

certain tiers to a private Facebook group. You get access,

1:27:00

early access to some of these podcasts and you get

1:27:03

some bonus content depending on the tier you sign up

1:27:05

for. We'd love to have you join us over there.

1:27:07

And in the meantime, as we pursue Christ, let's remember

1:27:09

to keep a sharp mind, a soft heart, and a

1:27:11

thanks again. We'll see you next time.