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supply. See site for details. Welcome

0:39

to the Elisa Childers podcast where we

0:41

equip Christians to identify the core beliefs

0:43

of historic Christianity, discern its counterfeits, and

0:45

proclaim the gospel with clarity, kindness, and

0:48

truth. And I've just finished a conversation

0:50

with the one and only Greg Kochel

0:52

about his new book Street Smarts, which

0:54

if you're familiar with the book tactics

0:57

that we talk a lot about on

0:59

this podcast, he's taken the principles and

1:01

the tips and the tactics from the

1:03

book tactics and helped apply them to

1:05

conversations that are relevant right here in

1:08

2024 in his new book

1:10

Street Smarts. So we got to talk about some

1:12

of that, some highlights for me from today's episode.

1:15

Is Greg talking about relativism as the

1:17

primal heresy? And the reason that he

1:19

talks about it that way is because

1:21

it can be traced all the way

1:23

back to the Garden of Eden and

1:25

really has to do with personal autonomy.

1:27

We want to rule ourselves. We want

1:29

to be our own gods. And that's

1:31

ultimately from where things like relativism and

1:34

even ultimately postmodernism spring out from. So

1:36

he had some great wise words about

1:38

that. We talked about atheism

1:40

and how the conversation

1:42

surrounding atheism has changed a little bit

1:45

in the face of relativism and in

1:47

the face of us

1:49

not really having to imagine anymore what a

1:51

world without religion is like. We're kind of

1:53

living it in our culture here in America

1:55

and even noting

1:57

how some prominent atheists are finding

1:59

it. themselves more drawn to Christian

2:01

ethics. So we also

2:04

talked about how to apply these tactics to

2:06

questions that have to do

2:08

with origins

2:10

and Big Bang cosmology, all sorts of

2:13

things we covered on this episode. So

2:15

without any further ado, here's Greg Cokle.

2:18

Well, Greg, it's always a joy to have you

2:20

on the show. You've been on several times, maybe

2:22

more than anyone else. Oh, that's great.

2:25

Well, it's been lots of fun for me. I always have

2:27

a good time when I'm with you. And I'm sorry I

2:29

missed you in Palm Springs a couple of weeks ago. We

2:32

were kind of ships passing and the night you were leaving

2:34

the day I was getting there for that event. So it's

2:36

nice to be with you now. That was

2:38

a great event. The desert apologetics out there in Palm

2:40

Springs, they do a great job. And

2:42

I'm so excited for this conversation today. And I

2:45

want to encourage all of our listeners to go

2:47

back into the archives and listen to the other

2:49

episodes that I've done with Greg because we've done

2:51

episodes on his book tactics, which by the way,

2:54

Greg, you know this, this is apologetics, like

2:56

orthodecacy is the book tactics. Anytime

2:59

I'm in a Q&A, I in fact, I

3:01

don't think I've ever been in a Q&A

3:03

where at least one time I didn't recommend

3:05

the book tactics for people asking the how

3:07

passion, right? Because in apologetics,

3:09

we're answering so much of the what,

3:12

what are the answers, but the how to

3:14

communicate that and especially within conversations that could

3:16

end up becoming a little tense or hostile.

3:19

Those tactics are so helpful. So you've written

3:21

a newer book called Street Smarts, which I

3:24

was thrilled to be able

3:26

to endorse because it, in my

3:28

view, it sort of takes the principles

3:30

of tactics and brings that brings them

3:33

into the more specific conversations we're having

3:35

today because tactics was written over 10

3:37

years ago, right? Yeah,

3:40

actually, it was three years ago now,

3:42

I think, or maybe four that

3:44

I had the 10th anniversary edition. That's right. And they

3:46

came out in 2009. And

3:48

really to provide what you're describing there,

3:51

Alisa, and that is a bridge, the

3:54

missing bridge actually from the contents of

3:56

the conversation, because you know, there is

3:58

so much great material out there. there.

4:01

And we have such a deep

4:03

bench with Christian thinkers

4:05

and communicators that there isn't a challenge

4:07

that any Christian is going to face

4:10

now that hasn't been addressed really well

4:12

by somebody who's done a deep dive

4:14

in it and come up with really

4:16

solid answers. But the trick is how

4:19

do you get the content that you

4:21

learn on podcasts or read in the

4:23

books or go to conferences or whatever,

4:25

how do you get that into play

4:28

into a conversation? That's the bridge

4:30

that's been missing that I provided with

4:33

the Tactics Book like

4:35

14 years ago and has

4:37

done really well. I'm so happy to

4:39

see that people have been incorporating that

4:41

into their interactions with other people

4:44

so effectively. We get remarks about

4:46

our books and they vary

4:51

but the one comment that I heard more

4:53

often than anything else about Tactics

4:56

is simply, this book changed my life.

4:58

That's what people tell me and

5:00

it's very flattering and very humbling to

5:02

hear that but I'm not surprised because

5:04

the total approach which is

5:06

I take street smarts in the next

5:09

step of Tactics changed

5:11

my whole approach too and

5:14

made me much, much more effective

5:16

as a Christian communicator or as

5:19

an ambassador for Christ and also

5:21

made it a lot easier and

5:23

safer for me as a Christian.

5:26

By the way, if it's easier and it's safer than

5:28

people are more willing to kind of wade

5:30

into the fray if they

5:33

realize they have a tremendous amount of safety

5:35

in the method that they're using to engage

5:37

with and that's what Tactics gives them. I

5:41

just want to give personal testimony

5:43

to how much these tactics actually

5:45

do work and recently you

5:47

and I were at the Fearless Faith

5:50

Conference which it's so interesting for me

5:52

to be at purely apologetics conferences because

5:54

that's actually not the main places I'm

5:56

speaking. I'm mainly speaking at women's conferences,

5:59

at women's ministries at various churches. So the

6:01

questions that I'm going to receive in a Q

6:03

and A are so much

6:05

the how questions, the relational questions, like

6:07

how do I take this stuff and

6:09

apply it to my relationships? Whereas at

6:12

apologetics conferences, you get all the tough

6:14

questions, the skeptical objections against Christianity, and

6:16

we were at Fearless Faith, and I

6:18

watched you use some of your tactics

6:20

with some of the questioners in really

6:23

potentially hostile situations. We had one guy

6:25

you probably recall ask a question about

6:28

polygamy, which turned into a debate between

6:30

he and Frank. And then you stepped in

6:32

with, I think it was a steamroller tactic,

6:34

if I'm correct. And you basically- Well,

6:36

that's right, he was steamrolling all right. He was,

6:38

and you were very kind and polite,

6:40

but you said, look, this is no longer a question.

6:43

This is a debate, so we're going to be done

6:45

with the debate. You can go back to your seat.

6:47

But as he's walking back to his seat, you got

6:49

to kind of have the final word and bring the

6:51

whole conversation into focus. And then

6:53

there was another Q and A in which a man got

6:55

up and asked a question that I

6:58

did not pick up that he was angry,

7:01

which shocks me because I think I'm usually

7:03

pretty able to pick that up in people,

7:05

but I just thought he was throwing us

7:07

a softball. And he got really angry

7:09

at my answer and started yelling at us. And

7:12

again- On the abortion issue. It was the abortion

7:14

issue and the Christian, in his

7:16

view, the Christian sort of laziness in taking

7:18

care of single moms, and we just pro-birth,

7:20

that kind of thing. And

7:22

you again took control of the situation

7:25

in a very calm, you were so

7:27

calm, so reasoned, but you

7:29

calmed the guy down, you brought

7:31

some accurate information in, and

7:34

it really settled the whole thing down. So I'm

7:36

just saying that to tell everybody who's listening and

7:38

watching, these aren't just principles that you're

7:40

reading about in a book. These are

7:42

principles and tactics that really do work

7:44

in real life. And they were for

7:47

people who don't necessarily have

7:49

a knack for evangelism. And I love that in

7:51

your book, you even say that, I have a

7:53

confession to make, evangelism is hard for me. And

7:56

Greg, I feel the same way. The first line of street parts,

7:58

that's right. Yes, that's the first line. first line and

8:00

I relate with that because it's not my natural

8:03

gifting. Now we're all called to do it

8:05

but it's harder I think for some people. I

8:07

have friends who they go to an airport, they

8:09

go to a coffee shop and they're just

8:11

witnessing to people all over the place and that's

8:13

harder for me. But your book Tactics really opened

8:16

up that door for me so I'd love

8:18

for us to start there. Which

8:20

evangelism is everybody, every Christian is

8:22

called to do it. Talk about

8:24

how tactics and even the idea

8:26

of the planting watering and harvesting

8:28

has really set a lot of people free

8:30

including me. Well that's

8:32

a comment I hear frequently after I give a

8:35

presentation. In fact you know

8:37

when you're talking to an audience you know when

8:39

you're kind of hitting a good nerve when you

8:41

see the corporate response. And

8:43

when I explain and we'll

8:46

get into this in a moment, the

8:48

gardening concept as opposed to the harvest

8:50

income concept and how important gardening is.

8:53

And that gardening requires tools and

8:55

then the tactical game plan which

8:57

is expressed more thoroughly in specific

8:59

circumstances in the Street Smarts book.

9:02

This gives you a tool to move forward. Now

9:04

what I've discovered is first

9:07

of all by encouraging people to

9:09

change their perspective about evangelism and

9:11

this is when we'll get into

9:13

the gardening thing. It softens

9:15

everything for them. They become more relaxed because

9:17

they realize they don't have to swing for

9:20

the fences in every conversation. All right. They

9:22

don't have to get people to sign on

9:24

the dotted line kind of thing. They don't

9:26

have to get to that last page of

9:28

the little you know

9:31

forced up tract or whatever.

9:33

But rather if

9:35

they view themselves as gardeners and then use the

9:37

tools that I described then they can do a little

9:39

here a little there a little here a little there.

9:41

And it turns out as I look back over my

9:43

life 50 years now I've been a Christian 50 years

9:47

since September half a century and

9:49

involved in evangelism

9:51

and Christian apologetics which is

9:54

a subset of evangelism for

9:56

almost the entire time and

9:59

then realizing that first of all

10:01

evangelism is getting harder and harder and harder

10:03

because you know the culture

10:06

is getting much more hostile and you

10:08

know from your own specialty Elisa that

10:10

it's not just hostile outside

10:12

the church it's hostile

10:14

inside the church and I'm just using the

10:16

church in the broadest sense now within what

10:18

people rank and file perceive as Christianity because

10:21

you have all these wolves that are inside

10:23

you got the world on the outside you

10:25

got the wolves on the inside and there are

10:27

a lot of wolves now and and

10:29

so that is daunting. Christians

10:32

get nervous about that especially

10:34

ones that are maybe a little bit more

10:36

timid or maybe don't

10:38

have a lot of education don't have

10:40

a lot of background or they just don't

10:42

want to get into a fight and I've

10:44

done a lot of debates over

10:47

the years formal debates and have doing

10:49

interactive talk radio for 32 years or

10:51

33 years or whatever

10:53

it is now spoken on more than 90 college

10:55

and university campuses so I've had a lot I've

10:58

faced a lot of conflict from people who disagree

11:00

with me but I don't want to get in

11:02

fights and one of the things that

11:04

I learned in applying

11:06

the tactical approach is

11:09

that it is possible to engage

11:11

without having a fight and

11:13

we can set the stage for that and that's

11:15

what the tactical game plan allows us to do

11:17

because there's a very particular way of approaching things

11:19

that when you kind of have it in your

11:21

mind and it's not very complicated at all once

11:23

you have it in your in your mind you

11:25

think oh this is what I need to do

11:27

right now it has a way

11:30

of relaxing you and it's not

11:32

an in-your-face approach obviously as we'll

11:34

get into because we're using questions

11:36

in very particular ways and

11:38

what that does is sets up a much

11:40

more genial environment that for the

11:42

most part contain even the most

11:45

belligerent individual now there are also

11:47

maneuvers like you talked about and

11:49

the steamroller tactic and that's in

11:51

the tactics book and how to

11:53

deal with people just get out

11:55

of hand there's the just the

11:58

facts ma'am tactic that I use

12:00

it the other gentleman who had all his facts wrong. And

12:03

both of us knew that, you know, but

12:05

he had an attitude. And so we had

12:07

to kind of deal with that as well.

12:09

But those were maneuvers that

12:12

will allow and there's a lot of them

12:14

in the tactics book, of course, that will

12:16

allow you to have an appropriate advantage in

12:19

conversation. Once you know how to handle those

12:21

things, it's so much easier. It's

12:23

like I asked people do how many people

12:25

like to take tests and nobody raises their hand.

12:27

One here, two people do, right? And I know

12:30

why they're raising their hand is because they know the

12:32

answers. And then I asked when you

12:34

know the answers, how do

12:36

you feel about taking a test and

12:38

then everybody raises their hand. And so

12:40

this is kind of the approach here.

12:42

When you have a plan that works,

12:44

that allows you to maneuver comfortably, and

12:46

you don't have to be a PhD

12:49

in anything, boy, does that help to

12:51

relax you and relax the circumstance and

12:53

gives you the boldness to take a

12:55

step into an otherwise hostile circumstance. And

12:57

therefore, if you do more gardening, there's

12:59

going to be a bigger harvest. Right.

13:02

And I think I've told you this story and I've probably

13:04

said it on the podcast before, but I remember

13:06

when I read tactics for the second time, I

13:09

was on a plane to CIA back probably

13:11

in 2020 or 19 somewhere

13:14

in there, I'd read it for the second time. And

13:16

I had an Uber driver who I suspected

13:18

was Muslim. And I just asked him because

13:20

I remember from tactics, just ask him, sometimes

13:22

people are really wanting to talk about themselves

13:24

and you know, people say, don't actually Muslims.

13:27

Right. Exactly. Muslims. Yeah. They like to chat

13:29

about religion. Right. That's right. And so just

13:31

kind of knowing and I just asked him, are

13:34

you Muslim? And we had this great conversation about

13:36

the differences of what Islam thinks about Jesus versus

13:38

Christians to find out he has a Christian wife

13:40

who's probably, you know, been praying for him. And

13:43

so I've prayed for him many times since then.

13:45

And we had a wonderful conversation. I was so

13:47

thankful to just learn some of these questions. And

13:50

for anybody who hasn't read tactics, it's

13:52

very simple. And we always in apologetics,

13:54

like I said, it's like apologetics, orthodoxy

13:56

teach people. And this is based on

13:58

Greg's work to say. Things like

14:00

well, what do you mean by that? What

14:02

do you mean by evolution? What do you

14:04

mean by deconstruction? This is something that's actually

14:07

very relevant in the deconstruction conversation Because

14:09

people are defining that word in so many

14:11

different ways if somebody is talking about deconstruction

14:13

or even saying they are in deconstruction a

14:15

great Beginning question is what do

14:18

you mean by deconstruction because they might mean something

14:20

completely different Then of course if that question is

14:22

answered you can bring in the how did you

14:24

come to that conclusion? You know

14:26

what was your thought process that led you to

14:28

conclude that and then if that's answered you can

14:30

move on to the have I love to have

14:33

you considered question because that's a way to bring

14:35

in an opposing view in a way That's actually

14:37

nice. Have you considered? XY

14:39

or Z and so those are just three questions

14:41

anybody can use and you've brought them Really

14:44

into the very very practical

14:46

realm for conversations that are happening

14:49

right now in 2024 in the book street

14:51

smarts And I'd love to start with what

14:53

you're calling the primal heresy and that is

14:55

relativism Oh, yeah, Tim and

14:57

I Tim and I actually quote you on this

14:59

in our deconstruction of Christianity book Because

15:02

you so brilliantly lay this out and I want to

15:04

read just a little clip from the book here You

15:07

said history is testimony to a basic

15:09

fact Human lives will

15:12

be ruled by one of two

15:14

fundamental forces either truth

15:16

or power Humanity

15:18

will be gathered governed either by the

15:20

physical facts of God's world and the

15:23

moral facts of his character Or

15:25

by the forces that oppose those moral and

15:27

physical facts Can you talk a little bit

15:30

about the primal heresy and how each generation

15:32

deals with it? But maybe it expresses itself

15:34

and applies in a different way Taking

15:43

a quick break from our conversation with Greg

15:46

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17:05

Alisa. Right,

17:13

back in 1998, Frank

17:15

Beckwith and I wrote a book called

17:17

Relativism, subtitled Feet Firmly Planted in Midair.

17:20

And of course, relativism, especially moral relativism,

17:22

that there is no objective right or

17:24

wrong. It's just a matter of personal

17:26

opinion or a cultural construct

17:28

in some sense. And we deal with that

17:30

issue. But I actually thought

17:32

that was kind of like an older

17:34

issue and that would just fade away

17:36

and new things would come. Well, new

17:38

things have come, but they have actually

17:40

been deeply grounded in a relativistic way

17:42

of thinking about all of reality,

17:44

and not just morality. And

17:47

so the postmodern movement came into fore.

17:49

It's been brewing for many, many decades,

17:51

but it really became popular in the

17:53

2000s. And

17:55

now it's undergirding everything. If

17:57

you think of the... The

18:00

slogan that really governs this age,

18:03

it's you do you. And

18:05

you can see that expressed in so

18:07

many ways, every movie you watch, every

18:11

advertisement, just

18:14

about podcasts, all

18:17

the social media stuff. And

18:19

what has happened is this relativism

18:22

about everything. Truth is whatever I

18:24

wanna make it to be. And

18:27

you see this in the progressive

18:29

movement and the deconstructive movement, because

18:31

what they are saying is, well,

18:33

truth is not Christianity, but it's

18:35

whatever else turns you on. You

18:38

can go this way, you can go that way, you

18:40

can go whatever way, you just can't go back to

18:42

that, because that's really stupid and bad. So there is

18:44

an inconsistency there, of course, but there always is in

18:46

these kinds of things. And the point

18:49

I make, and the reason I call it

18:51

the primal heresy, is because this goes all

18:53

the way back to the garden. And

18:57

the sin of the garden was

18:59

the insistence on human autonomy. In

19:02

other words, we wanna be in charge

19:05

instead of God being in charge. Now,

19:07

they were diluted, Adam and Eve were

19:09

diluted into falling for that line, but

19:12

nevertheless, that's what appealed to them.

19:14

And they saw something that looked

19:17

good to them, that could give

19:19

them something good, and

19:21

could make them wise, and it was

19:23

me, me, me, me, me, not

19:27

God, God, God, God. And

19:29

I expanded the concept a little bit to

19:32

entail modern things, because it wasn't just what

19:34

God said to do, it's the

19:36

way God made the world. If

19:38

you eat of that tree, you shall

19:41

die. That's the way reality was structured.

19:43

So it wasn't just a command that

19:45

they were supposed to obey, but

19:48

the world was made in a certain

19:50

way by God. And so what they

19:52

were doing is denying both of those.

19:55

Of course, you can see this nowadays, not just

19:57

in, I wanna do my own thing, but... I

20:00

want to be whatever sex I want to be,

20:02

for example. It doesn't matter

20:04

what my physical body dictates,

20:10

I can just deny that physical reality

20:12

and pretend like things are different. And

20:14

so that's the truth in either direction,

20:17

whether the world got, like

20:19

God made a certain way, and this has

20:21

to do with all kinds of sexual behavior.

20:24

God made sex for a reason, for a

20:26

purpose to function well in a particular way

20:28

for the purpose of human flourishing. And that's

20:30

all being taken exception with now, because now

20:33

it's you do you. And by the way,

20:35

everything in Genesis 1 and 2, which

20:38

describes the world that God made for

20:40

the purpose of human flourishing, the world

20:42

that he said was good, this

20:44

is the way it's supposed to work, all right?

20:46

Be fruitful, multiply male and female,

20:49

subdue. So you've got cisgender

20:51

or binary sexuality, you have a

20:53

husband and wife sexuality there in

20:55

Genesis chapter 2, which Jesus cites

20:57

in Matthew 19. All

20:59

of those things God set out, the devil can't

21:01

get at God. So what he's doing,

21:03

he's getting at God's image

21:06

bearers, that's all. And he's destroying us.

21:08

All of those things are being taken

21:10

exception with. So now what you have

21:12

is this primal heresy, which

21:15

really is relativism. It's my

21:17

truth, not the truth that's

21:20

being lived out. And of course,

21:22

when your lives are not governed by

21:24

truth, then who gets

21:26

his way? Or her

21:28

way? The one who

21:31

has the most power. That's right. And this

21:33

is exactly what we see. And here's an irony.

21:35

I don't know if you ever noticed this, Alisa,

21:37

but the line

21:39

from the left used to be we're going to

21:41

speak truth to power, you know, because there was

21:44

a kind of a Christian hegemony for the last

21:46

200 years in our country. And

21:48

so we had the power that you Christians,

21:50

you people, and so while we're speaking truth,

21:52

of course, the irony is they don't really

21:54

believe in truth, okay, in any substantive sense.

21:57

And they have the power now. And

22:01

they are abusing the power in,

22:03

I think, even more grotesque ways

22:06

than their predecessors, what

22:08

we used to call in the 60s, the establishment

22:11

abused power because power

22:13

was in check back then, at least

22:15

by a prevalent Christian worldview. Now

22:18

that's been abandoned and there is no

22:20

check to power. There is

22:22

no truth that's checking power. And so this is

22:24

why we're at the primal heresy now is

22:26

a foot everywhere in everything we

22:29

do and it's so corrosive. It's

22:32

hard. I have teenagers, you know, I'm

22:34

trying to protect my daughters from that, but it's very,

22:36

very difficult to do so. It

22:39

is and recent studies have borne this out.

22:41

Of course, there was the impact 360 in

22:43

conjunction with Barna studies on Gen Z that

22:45

came out a few years ago, which demonstrated

22:47

that the dominant worldview among Gen Z is

22:49

moral relativism. So in other words, what we

22:51

should or shouldn't do morally is just a

22:53

matter of opinion. But as you

22:56

pointed out, that will always boil down to

22:58

power. And it's so interesting

23:00

that you brought up how many people

23:02

who are relativists who are living out

23:04

that postmodern type of worldview will use

23:06

the word truth, even sometimes with a

23:08

capital T, you'll say, I am, I am

23:10

pursuing truth. And that can be so

23:12

confusing for a lot of Christians. For

23:14

example, Michael Ganger, who has deconstructed and

23:16

is now promoting the universal Christ, he

23:19

was on Instagram maybe a month ago

23:21

and somebody asked him, where do

23:23

I find absolute truth? And

23:25

he made a short little video

23:27

that just said the only place

23:29

to find absolute truth is within

23:31

yourself. And so I'd love

23:33

to get your take on this, Greg, because people

23:35

who are list regular listeners to my podcast should

23:38

just get used to me talking about this negative

23:40

world metaphor a lot from Aaron. This is

23:42

from Aaron Renz, a work. And

23:44

I think there are really two things that are

23:47

coming to a head that are making evangelism really,

23:50

really difficult in 2024. And

23:53

number one is that moral

23:55

relativism, where people in our

23:57

culture don't really think that

23:59

absolutely. truth exists or at least

24:01

could be known when it comes to things

24:03

like religion and morality. So right off the

24:06

bat we are we have a

24:08

difficulty because Christianity stands or falls an objective truth.

24:10

But the other one that I think has come

24:12

in that a lot of people don't realize is

24:14

realizing what time it is and this is where

24:17

the negative world that Aaron Wren is talking

24:20

about and if you're unfamiliar if anyone listening

24:22

is unfamiliar with that it's the idea that

24:24

up until about 1994 as

24:26

you pointed out Greg there was check to the

24:28

power because of the Christian worldview that

24:31

was kind of baked into our founding

24:33

documents baked into our laws and

24:35

so there was a bit of a positive

24:37

view of basic Christian morality.

24:39

We expected our presidents to be faithful

24:41

to their wives. There was a general

24:44

expectation of Christian morality but after 1994

24:46

through about the

24:48

mid-2000s he talks

24:50

about it being a neutral world where

24:52

it was sort of like this was the era

24:54

where you could pull out the Tim Keller approach

24:56

and just be really kind and really conversational and

24:58

it could work because people felt

25:00

generally neutral about the Christian worldview but

25:03

now ever since about the mid-2000s we're

25:05

in what he's calling the negative world

25:07

where not only is more a relativism

25:09

the dominant worldview among Gen Z but

25:12

we're also living in a time where

25:14

people are generally negative about the

25:16

Christian worldview which makes our job even harder. So

25:18

what do you think about that those two things

25:20

coming together to make it even more difficult?

25:29

All right another quick break here to talk

25:31

to you about foundation worldview. One

25:33

of the number one questions that I get

25:35

when I travel around the country and speak

25:37

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25:40

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25:42

kid to have a biblical

25:44

worldview to teach them to think critically

25:46

and biblically in a really deceptive world

25:49

and the number one curriculum that I

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25:58

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26:00

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26:02

truth. He learned what other religions believe

26:04

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26:06

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26:08

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26:30

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26:58

Well, I

27:00

was a student of Francis Schaeffer when

27:03

I first became a Christian in the mid 70s, 1973. And

27:07

74 is when I started reading Schaeffer. He

27:09

passed away in the 80s, but

27:11

it had a profound influence on me.

27:14

And as some people, of course, Nancy

27:16

Piercy, she was Schaeffer, a disciple along

27:18

with me. She actually went

27:20

for a season there at LaBrie and I

27:22

just visited a few times. Ozginn

27:25

is another example, but there's so many people have

27:28

been influenced by it. And so Schaeffer has said

27:30

something. This is what helps me in the circumstance

27:32

because when you look at

27:34

what you just described, it kind

27:36

of feels hopeless, right? It's

27:38

like, oh my, OMG, right? What

27:40

next? How can

27:42

I break through this? In

27:45

the tactics with the 10th anniversary edition, I have a

27:47

tactic I'd used for a long time, but I finally

27:49

found a name for it. And I explained this called

27:51

Inside Out. And the concept I got from

27:53

Schaeffer. And it's very simple actually. And

27:55

it's served me well

27:57

in many circumstances, even the most.

28:00

difficult ones like you're describing.

28:02

And here's what he said. He said the fact

28:05

is human beings are made

28:07

in the image of God and

28:09

they have to live in the world that God made. In other

28:12

words, reality is on our side. All right, this

28:14

is the truth of the matter. And

28:16

even when they disagree or they

28:19

have a they adopt a metaphysic

28:21

or a point of view or a

28:23

morality that is inconsistent with Christianity, somewhere

28:27

deep inside of them, this

28:29

contrasting truth about reality that is

28:31

God's truth is going to come out

28:33

when they're not even trying. They're not

28:35

thinking about it. And so

28:37

they speak out of both sides of

28:40

their mouth. Simply put, just think of

28:42

the statement of person says there is

28:44

no absolute morality. It's just a matter

28:46

of personal opinion. Therefore, it's wrong

28:48

for you to push your morality on me. Right.

28:52

A lot of Christians don't even see the

28:54

contradiction there until I point it out. And

28:56

then it's like, how did I ever miss

28:58

that? All right. But notice how they are

29:00

speaking from their false worldview first. And then

29:02

and then they're speaking like a moral objectivist.

29:04

It's wrong for you to push your morality.

29:06

Well, if it's wrong, if there is no

29:08

morality, how could it be wrong for me

29:10

to do that? In fact, if

29:12

I have the power back to that

29:14

issue, I can do whatever I want

29:17

and what your principled objection. And

29:19

this is why, by the way, people love to

29:21

be moral relativists, but they don't

29:23

want others to be moral relativists

29:26

towards them. Now, I point this

29:28

inside out that I got from

29:30

Schaeffer and in the chapter inside

29:32

out the things that are

29:34

inside that God puts there end up

29:36

coming out when the objector isn't even

29:39

realizing it. If

29:41

we can leverage that and when we see

29:43

it happening, we can begin to ask questions

29:45

like, wait a minute, I'm confused. Like

29:48

Richard Dawkins, who says that this is

29:50

a world as a materialist atheist, this

29:52

is a world in which there's no

29:54

evil, there's no good, nothing but blind,

29:56

pitiless indifference. And then it is

29:58

but God's delusion, he's be rating the God of

30:01

the Bible as being grossly immoral.

30:03

Okay, so wait, Professor

30:05

Dawkins, I'm confused. What

30:08

do you mean? Well, you're an atheist, right? Yes. No

30:11

evil, no good. Yes. Then how

30:13

could this God of the Bible be evil? Right.

30:16

Or where are you getting your moral standard

30:18

by which you're judging God right now? Now,

30:20

that is a completely legitimate question. And those

30:22

who are familiar with the tactical game plan

30:24

realize now we're in stage three of the

30:26

tactical game plan because we're using our questions

30:28

now to make a specific point. But

30:31

you have to see that point. You got

30:33

to see that problem before you can use a

30:35

question to expose the problem. But

30:37

this to me is kind of

30:40

a saving insight when

30:42

I face the world. Okay. I

30:44

know that they know, at least

30:47

on some subliminal level, they know the

30:49

truth. And they're

30:51

going to betray that knowledge in the

30:53

way they talk about things. Okay. So

30:57

many of the conversations that I have in

30:59

street smarts regarding particular issues, whether

31:01

it's atheism or abortion of the person of

31:03

Jesus or sexual issues, so many

31:05

of those things are meant, the questions in those

31:08

dialogues that I have there to guide people in

31:10

how to do this are

31:12

meant to draw out these

31:14

instinctual responses, these intuitions,

31:17

so to speak, about

31:20

reality that really work against

31:22

their view that they're expressing and then

31:24

ask them questions about that and

31:27

get them to ponder it. Now, you

31:29

know, in the process, I have a

31:31

very modest goal. And the modest

31:33

goal is not to lead them to Christ. I'm

31:36

not trying to get them to sign on the dotted line. I'm

31:39

trying to get them to think about

31:41

maybe their own view or about the

31:43

challenge they've just offered or something about

31:45

the Christian worldview. I call it putting

31:47

a stone in someone's shoe.

31:51

And You know, everybody's had a stone in their shoe

31:53

and it's not the end of the world, but it's

31:55

kind of annoying, right? You've got to deal with it.

31:57

And So What? I'm trying to do, and this is

31:59

what I recommend. The as a

32:01

goal for evangelistic conversations. Is.

32:04

Don't try to dissuade for the

32:06

fences. Just tried to have a

32:08

conversation using the tactical game plan.

32:10

This adequate to get them thinking

32:12

about their view. And so this

32:14

thing you've described as bills and

32:16

contradictions in it. At

32:18

it And and ah yes, people

32:21

are deeply committed to a narcissistic

32:23

way of living. There are encouraged.

32:25

Relativism has been around for it

32:28

iams but this is the first

32:30

time where culture wide it's big

32:32

and courage and of course devastated

32:35

results and we see this an

32:37

individual lives and our the the

32:39

crisis of meaning because people, individual

32:42

people are.big enough to ground their

32:44

whole reality around. Okay,

32:47

I'm and so is so weak

32:49

Weekend we can observe these things

32:51

are saying learn some questions asked

32:53

my with innocent. And. And and

32:55

in have jumped away. Have them be accountable

32:58

to their own views there and advocate. There's

33:00

no silver bullet here. I mention that the

33:02

beginning of street smarts. It's not like this

33:04

is magic. It's not like here's the thing

33:07

that you say and then the person's gonna

33:09

go oh I get it. Oh I wanna

33:11

become a crush on it. Doesn't work that

33:13

way. There are some people that are just

33:16

knock analysts and no matter what but there

33:18

are other people of holy spirit is beginning

33:20

to work on and we can be agents

33:22

in that process. By as I put it.

33:25

Putting. A stone in their shoe and

33:27

are mixing them metaphors because this is

33:29

part of the gardening process. All right

33:31

we give them something, think about the

33:33

Fi can do that, the conversation there

33:35

something fine at then I'm I'm or

33:38

months a happy camper. Okay and I

33:40

don't mind I I don't feel like

33:42

I gotta push push push push push

33:44

to get to the gospel or to

33:46

get them to challenge them to receive

33:48

Christ or something. This is all a

33:50

process and the process takes longer as

33:52

of France's shape or color pre evangelism.

33:54

But the process. Takes longer Now The

33:56

reasons you just described that it

33:58

ever did be. For. We.

34:01

Are Not alone. The.

34:03

Holy Spirit is there to make a

34:05

difference and the life is ready to

34:08

move on in his timing and so

34:10

were cooperating with God. Are trying to

34:12

ask the questions, integration manner being nice

34:15

and the process or let your speech

34:17

always be with grace Paul said and

34:19

collages for season as it were with

34:21

salt I said hey be night it

34:24

is Know what a concept. And

34:27

and and that is the kind of combination Think

34:29

that is going to be the most effective, not

34:31

just for this generation. Before. Any

34:34

generation and I do think this general

34:36

is harder but instead of you know

34:38

the answers and as we got a

34:40

plan you know how to maneuver and

34:42

that you've got to basic things you're

34:44

gonna be much more willing to step

34:47

into what otherwise would have same out

34:49

to be a and excessively dangerous circumstance.

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Meat Delivered. Yeah,

37:00

and living

37:04

in this negative world, I

37:06

think we also need to develop a little bit of

37:09

a backbone to expect that even if we say things

37:11

in the nicest way possible, even if we ask all

37:13

our questions and it was truly seeking to understand, there's

37:16

a really good chance that with some people it's not

37:18

going to be received well. I always think about the

37:20

Apostle Paul saying we spread the fragrance of the knowledge

37:22

of Christ and to those who are perishing, it smells

37:24

like death, but to those who are being saved, it

37:27

smells like life. And I think

37:29

we kinda, we need to think about our evangelism,

37:31

we wanna do it in the most beautiful, we

37:33

want to have a good smell, right? But to

37:35

some people who already hate God, they hate the

37:37

way God works in the world, we're gonna stink

37:39

like a rotting corpse and I think we need

37:42

to kinda get comfy with that and be okay

37:44

with it. But I'd love to talk a little

37:46

bit about atheism because you brought in Richard Dawkins

37:48

and how he'll use moral categories

37:50

to accuse God of being evil while

37:53

disavowing the fact that there even is such

37:55

a thing as objective evil. Interestingly,

37:58

I think in this relativistic. world,

38:00

it seems to me like, at least

38:02

in the deconstruction conversation, people

38:05

are much slower to declare atheism when

38:07

they deconstruct. Agnosticism is more popular because

38:09

that really fits more with that relativistic

38:12

worldview. I'm not really sure. It's kind

38:14

of, that could be true for you or

38:16

true for me. Whereas atheism almost suggests

38:18

that there's this absolute truth that can be

38:20

known. We just would disagree about what that

38:22

is. But there's a

38:25

move that a lot of atheists have done.

38:28

I think back when 9-11 happened

38:30

and you had the rise of the new atheists who were

38:32

asking us to imagine a

38:34

world without religion because they thought religion was what

38:37

was wrong with the world. Well,

38:39

no, we don't... That's John Lennon. John Lennon.

38:42

John Lennon said, imagine that's right. The song,

38:44

imagine, right? That's exactly the same thing. Right.

38:47

Well, we don't have to imagine anymore. We're

38:49

here and it's chaotic and we can all

38:52

see the darkness. I wonder if that's also

38:54

why we see some atheists being drawn to

38:56

Christian principles. And even admitting

38:58

that I'm not a Christian, but I'm

39:01

definitely more like the Christians than the

39:03

others. I'm thinking of Tom Holland and some of

39:05

those. Yeah, and they're more doing that, right? Exactly right. Tom Holland is

39:07

a good example of that. Yeah. So

39:10

when an atheist, I think maybe there might be

39:12

a little pivot we see among atheists and maybe

39:14

we can apply our tactical game plan to this

39:16

idea. And I've seen

39:18

this a bunch where it used to be

39:20

maybe that atheists were saying God does not

39:23

exist. Well, now they've pivoted a little bit

39:25

and they're saying, well, I simply lack a

39:27

belief in God or I, I just believe

39:29

in one less God than you do. They

39:31

say, hey, Christian, you have rejected

39:34

all of this, you know, the polytheistic

39:36

religions. You've rejected the Hindu gods. You've

39:39

rejected this and that. But I

39:41

just believe in one. I lack a belief in

39:43

one less God than you do. And it's almost

39:45

like they've pivoted to make room for

39:47

them not to be making some kind of a statement

39:49

about objective reality. But how can we

39:51

take our street smarts, our tactical game plan and

39:54

apply it to the atheist who would say, well,

39:56

I just simply lack a belief in God. Well,

39:58

you actually. Inflated to pull

40:00

out of a talk about it and

40:03

and lobby just take the second. one

40:05

is like I believe in what I'd

40:07

I'd just believe and one less. Know.

40:09

I believe in last at all These are, however

40:11

there is little. Idea: I believe in way less

40:14

God the New Something like that. Something I

40:16

get. but the point is you reject all

40:18

these other jobs, you don't believe in them

40:20

and I don't believe in one more than

40:22

you don't blame And the at the implication

40:25

is in in with Richard Dawkins the said

40:27

this and others have used as they think

40:29

this is so profound and are and so

40:31

I've My question at that point is. I.

40:34

Am from it. Yes, you're right. Ways.

40:37

As significant, they're trying to make a

40:39

point here. And. They they

40:41

think that. In and basically some

40:43

have said, while you're basically the easiest to.

40:46

A ride or not, but you're just.

40:48

you just have one less God that

40:50

you reject our own and I reject

40:53

them all. Okay, and it's almost like

40:55

they are equating all of these other

40:57

gods and deities to the God of

40:59

the Bible. And so I said What's

41:01

yes, You're right. if that's actually the

41:03

difference between an atheist in the see

41:06

us that the atheists believes in one

41:08

less or less god or whatever our

41:10

we put it rejects one. one of.

41:13

Us all the gods not just stood the

41:15

so I'm I want to ask him. Okay,

41:18

so I would you say that I'm basically.

41:22

A Bachelor. Know.

41:24

You're married. But. There's.

41:27

Millions. And billions of women that

41:30

I've I have rejected and I'm not

41:32

married to his. I. am

41:34

just married to have a a bachelor's

41:36

is married to his has it has

41:38

it's one less woman you know where

41:40

his life i've tried remember the exact

41:42

words of that that they have in

41:44

the streets watch but so does that

41:46

mean basically a battery said know you're

41:48

married i said exactly that's my points

41:50

of that's not directly profound is not

41:52

a long conversation is just meant to

41:54

show that this is a really silly

41:56

thing to say yes of course you

41:59

you believe in and less God than I

42:01

do, or whatever, however I put it.

42:03

But that doesn't mean that the God I believe

42:05

in doesn't exist. And

42:07

I think what they're trying to do is they're

42:10

trying to equate all of these gods. You don't believe

42:12

in Zeus. Right. Because

42:15

I have no reason to believe in Zeus. Okay.

42:18

Why do you think that I believe in the God I believe

42:20

in and not in Zeus? See, there's a question. Oh,

42:22

I don't know. There's no evidence or

42:24

something to say, well, oh wait, let me ask you

42:27

a few questions. And by the way, this is, I'm

42:29

just moving now into another part of the book because

42:31

a lot of atheists will say, well,

42:33

there's no evidence for

42:36

God. All right. Well, this is

42:38

actually a very silly statement and I'm

42:40

not trying to be just, you know,

42:42

baldly condescending, but just

42:46

because they're not convinced by the evidence

42:48

doesn't mean there isn't evidence. For thousands

42:50

of years, thoughtful people

42:53

have been writing arguments

42:56

regarding God. It's all evidence. It's

42:58

not nothing. Okay. But, but

43:01

I, I, I, I,

43:03

I actually had this question once during a Q and A and

43:06

the question was a, a give

43:08

me, give me proof for God. It

43:11

was actually a request, not a question. Prove

43:13

to me that God exists. Well, this is a hard

43:15

way when people ask the question that way because they're

43:17

asking for proof and you don't know what amounts

43:21

to proof in their mind. And you might ask

43:23

for clarification. So what do you, this is

43:26

a, what do you mean by that question? So when you

43:28

say prove to me that God exists, what

43:30

would count as proof to you? All right.

43:33

That's a fair question, but I actually don't go there

43:35

because what they're going to do is give me some

43:37

bizarre kind of evidence that they would never require for

43:39

anything else. So I just, I,

43:41

I, I, I told him, I said, this puts me

43:43

at a liability because I don't really know what would

43:46

be evidence for you or proof for you. Can

43:48

you rephrase the question? He said, okay. Yeah, I

43:50

can. Can you give me any reason

43:53

why someone should believe in God? Okay. I

43:56

can work with that. Do you mind if I ask you a few

43:58

questions? Okay. Then I had this conversation. with a student

44:00

at the University of Toronto after my

44:03

presentation. They came to the microphone. I

44:05

said, okay, these first questions are

44:08

pretty simple, but

44:10

just play along with me. Do you

44:12

believe that things exist? Now

44:16

the guy didn't want a bike because he knew I was

44:18

going somewhere with it. Finally he said, okay, this microphone exists.

44:20

And I said, okay, I can work with that. All right,

44:23

I agree with you. The microphone exists and other things as

44:25

well. All right, the things that exist,

44:27

whatever they are, have those things always existed or

44:29

did they come into existence at some time in

44:31

the past? Now this is the origin of the

44:33

universe kind of question, but I'm just putting it

44:35

in a very simple way. And

44:37

you look at, nobody believes the

44:40

universe is eternal anymore. They used to

44:42

100 years ago, they don't anymore. The

44:44

evidence is too strong for the origin

44:46

of the universe. Christians believe in

44:48

the beginning, God created the heavens and the

44:51

earth. And non-Christians believe in big bang cosmology.

44:53

Now I understand some Christians are not comfortable

44:55

with that. Don't get hung up on the

44:57

word. They are agreeing with

44:59

us. They believe the

45:01

universe had a beginning. And so

45:04

when I asked them about these

45:06

things always existing, no, they came into existence, he

45:08

said, like at the big bang. Good, I agree

45:10

with you. They had a beginning. So

45:12

notice two questions so far. We both agree with

45:14

each other, there's no fight. Here's the third question.

45:16

And this is the one that really matters, okay?

45:20

What caused everything

45:22

to come into existence? Now

45:25

I said, I'll make it easy on you. There's only one

45:27

of two answers, either something

45:30

or no thing. That's

45:33

right. That's it. Law of

45:35

excluded middle, law of non-contradiction, you wanna get

45:37

all rational about it. That's it. So

45:39

what do you say? Now he doesn't wanna

45:41

say that something caused everything because

45:43

that puts him in the theistic camp. It's gonna

45:45

have to be powerful, it's gonna have to be

45:48

personal, it's gonna have to be really smart to

45:51

make the whole universe whatever. So he doesn't wanna go there.

45:54

But what's his only other alternative? His

45:57

only other alternative is to say everything.

46:00

came from nothing for no

46:02

reason and with no purpose and

46:04

incidentally those all go together. If

46:07

everything came from nothing then

46:09

there is no reason because there's no reasoner and

46:12

there's no purpose because there's no purposer and

46:15

now you're stuck with a whole nother set

46:17

of problems that could be explored if that's

46:19

the direction they want to go. Alright but

46:21

many event now he's what he

46:23

doesn't want this particular guy was stunk he

46:25

didn't know what to say because

46:27

once you say everything comes from nothing I

46:29

mean what that's worse than magic. Right.

46:32

You know in magic you have a what a

46:34

magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat. Here

46:37

you got no magician and you got

46:39

no hat you just cut the rabbit the universe

46:41

and so it's not the odds-on favorite and by

46:43

the way this

46:45

is what I'm trying to show I am

46:47

NOT trying to prove God's existence though

46:50

what I just offered some of your listeners

46:52

will recognize as the Kalam cosmological argument you

46:55

don't need to know all that stuff you

46:57

just need to know hey a big bang

46:59

needs a big banger right yeah it's very

47:01

simple and as it

47:04

turned out this particular atheist he obviously didn't want

47:06

to go there all right and

47:08

he says well I'm gonna stick with

47:10

a scientific answer is what he said to

47:12

me as he's walking away from the microphone

47:14

he's dismissing my point and

47:18

my point being the odds-on favorite is

47:21

someone not something a someone

47:23

not nothing all right which is true

47:25

it is the odds-on favorite the smart

47:27

money is on that but

47:30

he says I'm gonna stick with a

47:32

scientific answer and I said wait you

47:34

never gave a scientific answer in fact

47:36

you can't give a scientific answer to

47:38

that question because you have to have

47:40

a universe already for anything like science

47:42

to work okay no I want to

47:44

notice what you notice a couple of

47:46

things about that particular

47:48

interaction there and that was that

47:52

first of all I wasn't having an argument with him I

47:55

was interacting with him in a conversation and

47:57

I was using particular questions to lead to

48:00

a point that was, I guess

48:02

you might call it the mic drop moment, but

48:04

that was the stone in the shoe. I

48:07

didn't think I was going to persuade him, certainly not

48:09

at the moment. It might be

48:11

something he thinks about later, stone in the

48:13

shoe. But there were a lot of other

48:16

people in the audience that were

48:18

also listening to this engagement, seeing

48:21

that he had no answer to the point

48:23

I was making, but I had an answer

48:25

to it that made sense, and

48:28

I was doing it nicely. But there's

48:30

something else that's going on, and this is

48:32

central to the street smarts approach. And

48:34

that is, because I could

48:37

have prosecuted that point

48:40

by just making statements, well, things exist,

48:43

and the things exist now, they haven't always existed,

48:45

they came into being at some point, and there

48:47

had to be a cause for that. And it

48:50

couldn't be nothing, it had to be something, and

48:52

something had to be personal and powerful and intelligent

48:54

and such. So I could have done that, preached

48:57

it. But notice that

48:59

every single time I make a point, especially

49:02

if the person is a hostile critic, they're

49:04

going to try to take exception with me.

49:06

Oh, well, maybe we're just all butterflies dreaming,

49:08

you know, who knows? Or who's to say

49:10

whether the universe is eternal or it began?

49:12

And so at every step,

49:14

I'm fighting to kind of get my pieces on

49:16

the table before I can get to my conclusion.

49:19

But instead, what I

49:21

did is I asked him the question. And

49:24

when I asked the question pertaining to that particular

49:26

piece, he put the piece on the table. He

49:29

is not going to take the piece off the table if he

49:32

put it there. And this is true

49:34

virtually every conversation that I have on all of

49:36

these issues that I cover in the street smarts

49:38

book, I've got two chapters in atheism, I got

49:40

two chapters on Jesus, I got two chapters in

49:42

Bible, challenges, I got two

49:45

chapters on abortion, I've got a chapter on sex

49:47

and gender and marriage. It's

49:50

understanding the challenge, the problems

49:52

with the challenge, or

49:54

the problems with the alternate view, and

49:56

then being able to piece together a

49:59

response. using questions where you're

50:01

actually enlisting the other

50:04

person in a very friendly way

50:06

as an ally in making the

50:08

point against them. And to me,

50:10

this is the most powerful thing

50:12

about street smarts is to be

50:14

able to know those sequence of

50:16

questions that get you there. Okay,

50:18

now I didn't mean to pass

50:22

over the first issue on atheism and I want to

50:24

get back to that when an atheist says, I'm

50:28

not really an atheist. Some will say, as

50:30

you mentioned, oh I'm an agnostic. That's

50:32

actually a point of confusion because

50:34

they say I'm an agnostic because I

50:36

don't know that God exists. Well agnosticism

50:39

is not a knowledge category, it's a

50:41

belief category. Alright, and that is the

50:43

belief, that is the

50:45

point of view that you aren't affirming

50:47

or denying. Okay, and you

50:51

don't have a view either way. And this

50:53

is what they're trying to do, the

50:56

atheists, to escape any burden

50:58

of proof for their view. So

51:01

when people say, well I don't believe there is

51:03

no God, I just have no belief in a

51:05

God. If I were an

51:07

atheist, I would never do this because I actually

51:09

think this is intellectually dishonest and you'll see in just

51:12

a moment. And so here's what I say

51:14

to them. I said, okay, I'm gonna make a statement. You

51:16

know, I'd like you to respond to the statement,

51:19

okay? And you have one of three

51:21

responses. You can either

51:23

affirm the statement, you can

51:25

deny the statement, or

51:28

you can withhold. I

51:31

don't know, I can't affirm, I can't deny,

51:33

I'm just gonna withhold. Okay, here's the statement,

51:37

God exists. So

51:40

do you affirm that? No,

51:42

of course not. Do you

51:45

withhold? Because

51:48

withholding is agnosticism. That means you're

51:50

not making a

51:52

statement one way or another,

51:54

all right? Well no,

51:57

they don't do that. Because if that was a statement,

51:59

then you're not making a statement. with their view they

52:01

would be doing podcasts and writing books.

52:03

Right. People who have no opinion about

52:05

something don't write about their non-opinion. They

52:08

do have an opinion. It

52:10

turns out that they affirm

52:12

the statement that

52:14

I'm sorry that they deny the

52:16

statement God exists. They deny

52:19

the statement God exists. Which

52:21

is by the way they have no belief in God because

52:24

they don't think he exists. So

52:26

here's the key to keep in mind and I

52:28

go into more detail of course in the book

52:30

here. Is that they

52:33

lack a belief in God but

52:36

they do not lack a belief

52:38

about God. They

52:41

lack a belief in God but they

52:43

don't lack a belief about God. Their

52:47

conviction about God is

52:49

that there is no

52:52

God which is why they're called

52:54

a theist. Atheist

52:58

means no God. A

53:02

negative theist God no God. They

53:04

make it sound like it means

53:06

no belief in God but that's

53:09

ledger domain. That's a

53:11

sleight of hand. Verbal sleight of hand.

53:14

Okay and so when you ask this

53:16

question you say well or you put

53:18

it to them this way if given

53:20

this statement what's your response? Well

53:24

that forces them to be honest

53:27

about their view. I understand that

53:30

you have no belief in God but the

53:32

reason you have no belief in God is

53:34

because you believe there is no

53:37

God. So you have a belief

53:39

about God and that

53:42

means that's why they're called atheists. Now

53:45

the reason they do this is

53:47

they think this rescues them from

53:50

any responsibility to defend their view.

53:52

Okay I have

53:54

no belief about the best rugby

53:56

team in England. Because

54:00

I have no exposure to that. I totally

54:02

lack a belief about that. No opinion. Atheists

54:06

don't lack a belief in God in that sense. They

54:10

do not believe in God because they believe

54:12

God does not exist. And that's what the

54:14

questions there in Street Smart, how I just

54:17

real played it for you, are meant to

54:19

kind of unwrap a little bit to get

54:21

the other person to be more honest. And

54:24

I think the way in that conversation

54:26

is I say, look, okay, I accept

54:28

your definition. You lack a belief in

54:30

God. But it turns out that you

54:32

also qualify for the standard definition of

54:34

atheism. And that is you

54:37

think God does not exist. Correct?

54:40

And that's why that question is so helpful

54:42

that you have three options. There

54:46

is a God, God exists, what's your response

54:48

to that statement? Just meant to keep them

54:50

honest. Now, obviously, this doesn't adjudicate one way

54:52

or another on the issue. But

54:54

it's meant to parry a really

54:56

kind of a weak

55:00

response to Christians to avoid any

55:03

burden of proof. Yeah. A couple

55:05

of things I want to comment on there, starting

55:08

with your conversation with the atheist about the

55:10

origins of the Big Bang

55:13

cosmology and what caused the universe to

55:15

explode into existence out of nothing. I

55:18

don't know if you saw this, but recently,

55:20

maybe over the last couple of months, there

55:22

was a little video that was going around.

55:24

And I don't think this guy is a

55:26

Christian, but he's a comedian. And he was

55:28

talking about Big Bang. You probably saw this.

55:30

I didn't say that. And I thought he put it

55:33

so well because he said, you know, people make

55:35

fun of the science people make fun of the

55:37

God people because the God people think that God

55:39

caused the universe to come into existence. But you

55:42

know what definitely doesn't exist? Nothing.

55:45

And I thought that was so helpful. That's basically the

55:47

definition of nothing. Yeah, it does not exist. No, I

55:49

have a comic clip. I've actually

55:51

purlined that for my talk. So

55:53

I'll toss that as a

55:55

laugh line because it does make a really good

55:58

point. You say God doesn't exist. One

56:00

thing that doesn't exist nothing doesn't exist. Yeah,

56:02

nothing pretty clever. Yeah, that's good Yeah, it

56:04

really was. Yeah, I don't think he's a

56:06

Christian, but it is a clever insight It

56:08

really is and it's I think all of

56:10

us apologists were watching that video like We've

56:13

been saying for a long time The

56:16

other thing I wanted to comment on

56:18

is you made a very insightful point

56:21

I don't even know if you realize how insightful it was and

56:24

I want to comment on it You said

56:26

people don't start podcasts when they just

56:28

have a non opinion And what

56:30

I want to point out for our listeners is that people

56:33

do? Just

56:35

that what appears to be just that

56:37

right? So you have deconstructionist

56:40

after deconstructionist progressive Christian after I

56:42

just was looking at one yesterday

56:44

of a Quote-unquote

56:46

Christian musician from the 90s early

56:49

2000s who has started a podcast

56:51

and Virtually all of the content

56:53

is about how he just doesn't know anymore

56:55

I just I don't know

56:57

if the way, you know believing in

57:00

hell is necessary I don't know and

57:02

it appears to be that he has

57:04

started a podcast based on just having

57:06

a non opinion But that there is

57:08

so much more behind that because there

57:10

actually is an opinion and what the

57:12

opinion is is that? The historic Christian

57:14

gospel is wrong and hurtful and oppressive

57:17

and so even though they haven't claimed

57:19

Positive beliefs on the other side make

57:21

no mistake Greg You're not gonna start

57:23

a podcast on the best rugby team

57:25

in England. Just like I'm not gonna

57:27

start a podcast on You

57:29

know how to how to weave carpets because I

57:32

know nothing about that I know nothing about what

57:34

the best I would literally start a podcast and

57:36

say I have no clue I don't know what

57:38

this is. So I don't know and that

57:41

was the end of it Yes, this is

57:43

a passive-aggressive approach when they do this

57:45

because they're going Oh little

57:47

on me. What do I know? I'm not saying

57:49

anything bad and but the whole purpose

57:52

Of the enterprise is to move people

57:55

in a particular

57:57

direction and yeah So,

58:00

you know, they don't write they don't start

58:02

podcasts. They don't write books and all these

58:05

Atheists, especially that are making this claim.

58:07

Oh, I just lack a belief really

58:09

then Why are you writing

58:11

a book about your lack of beliefs? Yeah,

58:14

that's why I say it's intellectually dishonest and if

58:16

I were an atheist, I wouldn't do that. It's

58:19

embarrassing Right, just be

58:21

intellectually honest about what you're actually saying

58:23

about reality and some are some are indeed.

58:26

Oh, well Greg We are about out of time here I want

58:28

to give you the last word here if there's anything you want

58:30

to leave our audience with any words of wisdom Yeah,

58:33

I want to say something very quickly

58:35

about gardening and we've mentioned this in

58:38

and out of the conversation I hint at

58:40

it a little bit in the tactics book

58:43

the 10th anniversary I included in the introduction

58:45

because it's a concept I've developed over the

58:47

last since I first wrote the first edition

58:49

of tactics I realized what I'm

58:51

doing, but I was being more intentional about clarifying

58:53

it but in street smarts I have a whole

58:56

chapter on it because the

58:59

point there is and this is

59:03

If this is controversial among some Christians Especially kind

59:05

of the Jesus movement crowd that you and I

59:07

are familiar with I mean, I I was listening

59:09

to your dad You know what? That was a

59:12

long hair Jesus freak kind of thing

59:14

and evangelism was such a big part

59:16

of that movement But evangelism was of

59:18

a certain type harvest harvest

59:20

harvest harvest harvest harvest, okay, and That

59:24

was the emphasis and that's what the tools that were

59:26

given And I have a

59:28

simple statement I offer in the book and

59:30

when I speak that is meant to challenge

59:32

people to think differently about it and that is You're

59:35

not going to get a harvest unless there's been a

59:37

season of gardening. All right, there won't

59:39

be a harvest unless there's gardening Well,

59:41

no duh, that's so obvious in agriculture, but

59:43

it's always also ought to be obvious in

59:47

In evangelism and it turns out when

59:50

I take polls of audiences and I

59:52

just did it on Sunday in Anchorage,

59:54

Alaska And I asked how many people

59:56

here became a Christian because

59:58

somebody prayed with them to receive Christ as Lord

1:00:00

and Savior or they came forward at an altar

1:00:03

call, which is the which

1:00:05

is kind of like the standard motif

1:00:08

Jesus movement, etc. And from that

1:00:10

we've inherited that. Actually, I said, how many

1:00:13

who are Christian have not become a Christian

1:00:15

that way? My average is 70% of

1:00:18

the people raised their hands. 70% of

1:00:20

the Christians did not become Christian that

1:00:22

way. Okay, in many

1:00:25

cases, even with me, they

1:00:27

harvested themselves. Now we know the Holy Spirit

1:00:29

did that but it wasn't like

1:00:31

somebody leading them to Christ. There

1:00:34

was a gardening process of people in their lives

1:00:36

and there came a moment when God just

1:00:39

resolved that and they became

1:00:41

Christians. And so there's in

1:00:43

the Gospels, there are no altar calls, no altar

1:00:45

calls in the book of Acts. Nobody's encouraged to

1:00:47

receive Christ as Lord and Savior. I'm

1:00:49

not against that. I'm just saying if

1:00:51

that's the mold you think you have to follow,

1:00:54

that is not a biblical mold. All

1:00:56

right, there's an alternative and that's

1:00:58

the gardening approach. A little here, a

1:01:00

little there. And we are

1:01:02

all gardeners. We can all be gardeners. And

1:01:04

Jesus talks about this in John chapter 4

1:01:07

after the woman at the well, the conversation, he

1:01:09

tells that J. Warner Wallace is a close friend

1:01:11

of both of ours. And it turns on Jim

1:01:13

was in my garden when he was an atheist.

1:01:16

And I didn't lead him to the Lord. I don't know

1:01:19

who harvested my crop. Somebody went into

1:01:22

my garden, but

1:01:24

it doesn't matter because Jesus says the

1:01:27

one who sows and the one who reaps can

1:01:29

rejoice together. So my encouragement in all of these,

1:01:32

both of these books, Tactics and

1:01:34

Street Smarts, is to just focus

1:01:37

in on the gardening. I'm freeing

1:01:39

people up from worrying about

1:01:41

trying to get people to pray to

1:01:43

receive Christ. Just do the gardening

1:01:46

and God will take care of the harvest.

1:01:48

He is the Lord of the harvest. He's

1:01:50

placed us, most of us, in a position

1:01:52

of gardeners. And these books, Street Smarts and

1:01:55

Tactics, are meant to help folks

1:01:57

do that well. Great. Well, I want

1:01:59

to. thank my guest Greg Kochel, always

1:02:01

such wise advice on the show. Two

1:02:04

books that should be in absolutely every

1:02:07

library. Get Tactics, get the 10th anniversary

1:02:09

edition that's updated with lots of new

1:02:11

information, and get StreetSmarts using questions to

1:02:13

answer Christianity's toughest challenges. If you are

1:02:15

watching on YouTube, it helps so much

1:02:17

if you subscribe and click the bell

1:02:19

icon to be notified every time we

1:02:22

release a new video. Share

1:02:24

this out on social media. Share it with your

1:02:26

friends. Send it to your pastor via email. Let's

1:02:28

get the word out on some of this great

1:02:30

information. And of course if you're

1:02:32

listening on audio platforms like Google, Apple, Spotify,

1:02:35

leaving a great review helps so

1:02:37

much to get this into the

1:02:39

news feeds of more people. And

1:02:41

let's remember as we pursue Christ to keep a

1:02:43

sharp mind, a soft heart, and a thick skin.

1:02:46

We'll see you next time. And

1:03:02

a thick skin.

1:03:04

We'll see

1:03:07

you next time. Welcome

1:03:20

to Pretty Lies and Alibis. Let's

1:03:22

seek the truth and travel the

1:03:24

long road to justice together. What

1:03:30

you know, alibis, welcome to another episode

1:03:32

of Pretty Lies and Alibis. I'm Gigi.

1:03:34

Still Tuesday we are knocking out the

1:03:36

rest of this refresher course in preparation

1:03:38

for openings tomorrow in the Chad Daybell

1:03:41

trial. I'm hoping to get to Boise maybe

1:03:43

as early as next week. Springtime

1:03:46

savings are in full bloom, all in the Kroger

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app. Buy one get one free on flavorful, fresh,

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or match during our 99 cent sale and get

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or more all with your car. Shop these

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deals at your local Kroger today or

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click the screen now to download the

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subject to change. Restriction supplies. See site

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for details.