0:00

[CLANKING NOISE]

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ANNOUNCER: A and S.

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[CRANKING AND CLANKING NOISES]

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MAN: Rock n roll, baby! Chuck Berry.

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[INTERPOSING VOICES]

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ERIKA RANDALL: I imagine Reiland Rabaka, welcoming

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Deion Sanders to the opening of the CAAS,

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or Center for African and African-American Studies.

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He exudes generosity to an equally magnanimous coach

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prime. And their laughter fills the halls.

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Someone shouts, hey, Batman and Robin.

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And Prime asks, who's Batman?

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Without hesitation. Reiland looks at Sanders and says, "I'm Batman."

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Coach Prime says, "you're Batman?"

0:39

and Reiland replies, "oh, I'm Batman."

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Black studies classes. In African-American studies, I'm letting them know,

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I came here to help. I'm trying to rescue and reclaim my humanity

0:48

and I'm going to help you rescue and reclaim yours because

0:51

the more you hold on. I can't imagine a time in which Reiland isn't a super hero.

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This is a man who has published 17 books, records music,

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went to high school with the likes of Erykah Badu,

1:01

whom he comfortably flirted with, and now after more than 20 years at CU Boulder,

1:05

has worked with students to found a center committed

1:08

to transformation and anti-racism at the university.

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Reiland is a force for good who brings together

1:14

people and ideas to build better communities.

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I love this human and can't wait for you to meet him,

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although many of you have because he's everywhere,

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like Batman. [MUSIC PLAYING]

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On the ampersand, we call this Bringing

1:29

Together of the Impossible, The Alchemy of Anding.

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Together, we'll hear stories of humans who imagine and create

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by colliding their interests.

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Rather than thinking of "and" as a simple conjunction

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and that conjunction junction kind of way,

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we will hear stories of people who see "and" as a verb, a way

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to speak the beautiful when you intentionally

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let the soft animal of your body love what it loves.

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As St Mary Oliver asks, what is it you

1:54

plan to do with your one wild and precious life?

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Oh, I love this question. When I'm mothering, creating and collaborating,

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it reminds me to replace a singular idea of what I think I should become with a full sensory verb

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about experiencing.

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I'm Erika Randall.

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And this is doctor Reiland Rabaka on the ampersand.

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

2:23

REILAND RABAKA: I will start by saying that only

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you can get this out of me. I'm a very-- I'm a-- I'm an incredibly private person

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I think because I share so much of my life with the public

2:37

that my grandmother, bless her heart,

2:40

always says save some of yourself for yourself, baby.

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You know what I mean? And I, for a long time, I'm trying

2:51

to transform myself in the process of transforming

2:54

the world. You know, or vice versa, actually,

2:57

transform the world in the process of transforming myself.

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And I want you to know, I think you know me well enough

3:03

to know that I'm more interested in the process

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than I am the end product. ERIKA RANDALL: Yeah, that's why I

3:09

want to get into the fabric, the weave. REILAND RABAKA: Yeah, so I think that's why I love teaching.

3:14

And I really don't consider myself a teacher, I consider myself more a sharer.

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I consider myself more in the style

3:20

of Ella Baker, one of my idols from the Civil Rights Movement,

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from the Women's Liberation Movement.

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Ella Baker helped the young folks

3:29

start SNCC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating

3:32

Committee. And she really saw herself more as a facilitator.

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ERIKA RANDALL: Yes. REILAND RABAKA: Right, than an educator.

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Now she's educating, but for me, there's

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more of a reciprocal thing. I think you know that anybody that takes a class with me

3:47

actually ends up teaching me more than I ever-- Erika RANDALL: Every time.

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REILAND RABAKA: I think share with them. Erika RANDALL: I feel that too.

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REILAND RABAKA: So In an effort to not be evasive as I usually am, see, if it was somebody else--

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Erika RANDALL: I know. But we'll go so far left that we'll circle all the way back

4:00

to Texas. And you're talking about the Women's Movement,

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and that your mom and grandmother were

4:05

the first to bring you into that. That came--

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REILAND RABAKA: Well, and-- Erika RANDALL: Is that true? REILAND RABAKA: Yeah, well, through the church.

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So my first love is gospel music.

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So I grew up as a youth minister of music.

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My mother is actually a woman, is a theologian.

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So my mother is the Minister, you know.

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Everybody kind of knows I'm a PK, which

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means a preacher's kid. Erika RANDALL: Yeah. REILAND RABAKA: But they--

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I think they just assume that it's my pops,

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but it's actually my mom's.

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And so that shapes, not only your spirituality, but also

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a gender consciousness because of the way that women are treated in the church.

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The way that women are erased.

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And so my first love remains Mahalia Jackson,

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Albertina Walker, Shirley Caesar, Clara Ward.

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These are the kinds of folks my mother and my grandmother

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were listening to. James Cleveland, Thomas Dorsey, I could just--

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I could do this all day. But we ain't got all day, you know what I mean?

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Erika RANDALL: But to get this litany out-- REILAND RABAKA: It's really important to roll call that--

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I think that probably unlike a lot of other, you know,

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African-American musicians, my first music--

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my first musical love was, and remains, gospel music.

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Every day before I listen to anything secular,

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I listen to a gospel album. You know, so after my prayers and my meditation,

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I start with the music. So African-American sacred song is my foundation.

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And in fact, I mean, oddly, I will be keynoting the National

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Spirituals Conference this month at the University of Denver.

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And they know that I have a love affair with, first

5:48

and foremost, the spiritual. So what they used to call Negro Spirituals,

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this is the music, the soundtrack of our enslavement.

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These are songs of not simply heavenly salvation,

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but earthly liberation. And so for me, there's always been a connection, at least

6:08

from the African-American church I come out of,

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there's always been a connection between the social gospel

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and social justice. That there's no way we can talk about spirituality

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that is removed from the material,

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the actual physical world that we live in.

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And so after gospel, Erika, I grew up so poor

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that as strict as my mother was, she

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allowed me to play jazz because when I was nine years old,

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I got my first $100 bill for playing a jazz gig.

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I thought it was monopoly money. I didn't know it was real money.

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Erika RANDALL: You hadn't seen 100-- REILAND RABAKA: I'd never seen a-- come on, I'm not--

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you know. I never seen--

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Erika RANDALL: And you got it in your hand. REILAND RABAKA: Yeah. I mean, they-- and I gave it to my mother.

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She hugged me. She held me. It was a real--

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it was a real-- it was it's a bittersweet moment because when

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I look back and just to be real with you, that's also probably

7:06

the day my childhood ended. You can't just be a little kid when

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you fixing to help your mama make rent from now on.

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So as long as you didn't miss Wednesday night prayer

7:16

meeting, choir rehearsal and church on Sunday, then

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you can go and swing. And I was part of a generation what they were calling--

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it was a jazz renaissance going on.

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You know, with folks like Wynton Marsalis, Branford Marsalis, Roy Hargrove, who I went to high school

7:30

with, by the way, who I went to high school with, Roy Hargrove.

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Growing up in Texas-- Erika RANDALL: Yeah, Texas jazz.

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How did those-- how did that connect? REILAND RABAKA: Well, having--

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you know, part of my family being creole folk from next door and Louisiana,

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and so going back and forth to the jazz and heritage festival.

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In Texas, hearing gospel, hearing

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blues just as much as I'm hearing jazz and R&B

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and Funk and soul and hip-hop. And let's not forget the Caribbean influenced reggae

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music. Erika RANDALL: Reggae, that was-- my soundtrack was Donna Summer, my mom, Donna Summer--

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REILAND RABAKA: Beautiful. Erika RANDALL: Bob Marley. And then full English Hippie Cat Stevens.

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REILAND RABAKA: OK. And I'm so-- wait, Wow World, anybody?

8:09

Erika RANDALL: Oh, man. All of it. REILAND RABAKA: I love Cat Stevens--

8:12

Erika RANDALL: All of it. REILAND RABAKA: Who don't even have that name anymore, who's playing [INAUDIBLE].

8:15

You know what I'm saying? Erika RANDALL: I know. And he's been moving back.

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REILAND RABAKA: Just beautiful though. I mean-- Erika RANDALL: But the reggae--

8:20

right? That-- REILAND RABAKA: It's absolutely there--

8:22

Erika RANDALL: That was in your house or that was in your head and heart?

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REILAND RABAKA: That was in my head and heart more.

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I think that-- I think that being a kid from the projects

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and going to all art conservatory schools,

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so I didn't go to regular school. So I never went to a school with a football team or a basketball

8:37

team or something like that. So I went to all art schools.

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And so at the time, they would allow one African-American per grade.

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So these were the elite suburban schools where people got--

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Erika RANDALL: Is this Mrs. Robinson's classroom?

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REILAND RABAKA: That was first grade. Erika RANDALL: That was first grade. REILAND RABAKA: That was first grade.

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And so those schools, K through 12, were all art schools.

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So I literally spent the bulk of my youth training

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to be a musician.

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And the way that they trained me, Erica,

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you've got to be able to play everything. So I played klezmer.

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I played polka. I played country and western.

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I played tejano. I played bar mitzvahs.

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I played-- on top of all of the jazz and the gospel

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and the blues and the soul and the funk, baby, the funk, baby,

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oh, the funk. You know? And so for me, it's that versatility, I

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think that's actually what allowed

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me to go from the projects to the professor at where I'm at

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to-- Erika RANDALL: That versatility of thinking-- of thinking with.

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REILAND RABAKA: It opens you up though. Erika RANDALL: Right. REILAND RABAKA: Because-- Erika RANDALL: Yes.

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REILAND RABAKA: Here's the-- here's the thing, and I really, really want to stress this.

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And I think maybe this is why somebody like me is able to be on the faculty at the University

9:43

of Colorado for nearly 20 years.

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In the schools that I went to, especially by the time I get to junior high school and high school,

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there's this weird inversion of the junior high school

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and high school experience. So your popularity isn't based on what kind of car

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your parents drive or how much money they

10:01

have in the bank account or how big your house is.

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It's based on your talent. It's based on your gift.

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So guess who was the most popular? I said papa-la.

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Erika RANDALL: Boom. Boom. REILAND RABAKA: Kid is cool.

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I went to high school with Erykah Badu. I graduated from the same high school as Norah Jones.

10:17

Erika RANDALL: Norah Jones went to Interlochen, which was my-- that's my home.

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REILAND RABAKA: You see what I'm saying? Erika RANDALL: I feel you. Like REILAND RABAKA: I went to the same high school as Edie Brickell.

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Erika RANDALL: What? REILAND RABAKA: Right. Erika RANDALL: Because-- and talk about [? an ?] [? Andre ?]

10:24

and the New Bohemians. REILAND RABAKA: You see what I'm saying? Erika RANDALL: I know.

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So there was a lineage. And so there was an expectation or just a mentoring

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or it was a pressure in that world if you're coming through,

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or were you the pressure? Because you came through and set the stage.

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REILAND RABAKA: When your family's depending on you to eat--

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Erika RANDALL: Yeah, you got to-- that's the pressure. REILAND RABAKA: So I think for a lot of the other kids,

10:41

this was a hobby. But for me, this was the way that I

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was going to literally swing myself from the projects

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into an arts conservatory university,

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an arts conservatory college, so on and so forth.

10:54

Got accepted to Cal Arts. Got accepted to most of the--

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I mean, I don't know what school I did not get accepted to.

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Erika RANDALL: Well, and at the end of the day, because you had all these capacities,

11:06

did you feel like the pressure is on me to get a job in music

11:10

or now I've got these opportunities, I need to shift to something more stable, air quotes?

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REILAND RABAKA: If I can be honest with you, I think because I'm first generation,

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I think folks were just happy I was going.

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I did get some of the, "you sure you

11:23

shouldn't be a business major?" Erika RANDALL: You did get some of that.

11:26

OK. OK. REILAND RABAKA: Oh, definitely. Like, what on Earth are you going

11:29

to do with a music degree? Erika RANDALL: Was that mom, or was mom always in the corner?

11:33

REILAND RABAKA: No, it was more my grandmother.

11:35

My mother's, in some ways, spiritually speaking,

11:38

a very free spirit, interfaith, open to a lot of things.

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And to be honest with you, I'm probably the daughter

11:47

my mother never had. So I'm my mother's middle son.

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So I have an older brother and a younger brother.

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And I can't believe you're getting all this out of me. I'm a very private person.

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Shout out to Robert and Randy, that is their name.

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My older brothers-- Erika RANDALL: The three R's. REILAND RABAKA: Yeah.

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And they got the more conventional-- I mean, both of them are named after their fathers.

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And my mother just went left field. You know?

12:06

So I can rock and roll. Erika RANDALL: That's why you're always going left.

12:09

REILAND RABAKA: You know what I'm saying? Because I'm left handed and when I found out

12:12

Jimi Hendrix was left handed and Barack Obama was left handed

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and W.E.B. Dubois was left-handed. Erika RANDALL: OK.

12:17

Bookmark on Dubois. OK. So then I got to get back.

12:19

We're going to go back to Texas one more time and I want to talk about Mrs. Robinson.

12:24

Because if you're going to say Dubois, she was the first person to say that name to you.

12:28

And can you tell me the story in a way

12:30

you've never told the story before so you can hear it?

12:33

Because it's a good story. REILAND RABAKA: You know, I think

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that being precocious and really,

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when you when you grow up in the church like I did

12:44

and you start playing, I mean, I was so young they sat me

12:47

on phone books. So in the African-American church,

12:51

they actually cultivate, quote, unquote giftedness,

12:56

talented-ness, I'm making up words for you. Erika RANDALL: We like that here.

12:59

REILAND RABAKA: And it's one of those things

13:01

where there's a unique culture within the African-American

13:04

church of, they say in terms of our gifts and our talents.

13:08

Number one, Erica, I believe-- and you can see this is what

13:11

works for me as a as a professor, all of us--

13:15

for-- I mean, in African-American church

13:18

culture, it's the cultivation, it's the nurturing of--

13:24

everybody is gifted. See? God don't play favorites.

13:27

Erika RANDALL: Yeah, God's giving everybody-- REILAND RABAKA: So everybody-- but if you don't use it,

13:31

you lose it. If you don't consciously develop it.

13:34

So all those hours I'm sitting there practicing, when

13:39

the other kids had video games. You know, I used to feel tight because they

13:43

could play Sega and all the-- Atari and all the cool games.

13:47

We didn't-- we didn't have that. Erika RANDALL: Commodore 64.

13:50

REILAND RABAKA: You see? So we didn't have all of that kind of stuff.

13:53

I wasn't able to see Jordan do all of those

13:56

crazy-- because we didn't have-- the TV wasn't on most of the time.

13:59

So I mean, even if you have a TV, it's got the little antenna, you know,

14:02

with the clothes hanging off in it with the fall on the back of it and everything.

14:06

But if you don't have your electricity on,

14:08

if you don't have running water, so on and so forth.

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And so I think that a lot of the time where I felt tight, I

14:14

felt maybe a little economically traumatized,

14:17

humiliated, demoralized, I was in that practice room.

14:22

I was knuckling and brawling, attempting to evolve myself.

14:28

And the reality of the matter is I

14:30

had-- it was a multiracial, multicultural group of teachers

14:34

that nurtured this talent. So on the one hand, I just want you to hear, foundation

14:37

and please, let's get it straight,

14:39

foundation is the African-American church.

14:42

However, but the church sends us out into the world.

14:45

As you know, one of my favorite spirituals

14:47

is called Go and See the World. And this is something my grandmother will sing to me,

14:51

often, she sings it often. Certainly, if I get [? weird, ?] I just say, mama,

14:54

will you sing to me? And she will sing.

14:56

Erika RANDALL: She's still here to sing to you? REILAND RABAKA: My grandmother--

14:58

I'm sorry, this makes me emotional, my grandmother turns 96 tomorrow.

15:02

And my grandmother is one of the great loves of my life.

15:08

And the other, of course, being my other grandmother

15:11

and my mama. My grandmother, I think you can do the math,

15:15

if I'm from Texas, my grandmother's 96,

15:18

Juneteenth was issued 158 years ago.

15:21

So my grandmother's grandmother was enslaved.

15:24

So it's not a coincidence that I would come out

15:27

an African-American studies professor, that I speak

15:31

with love-laced words, that I'm trying to bring some level of human understanding

15:35

to what's going on. Even the rapport, the bond that we have,

15:40

that culture, Erica, taught me to also check

15:46

for your life and your struggles. So it's not just about me.

15:48

It's about you we. Erika RANDALL: That's when you say Ubuntu in your signature.

15:50

REILAND RABAKA: See what I'm saying? So how can you guys--

15:53

Erika RANDALL: I am because you are. REILAND RABAKA: There you go. So I am because we are.

15:56

And how can you and I rescue and reclaim our humanity together,

16:01

instead of avoiding my Africanity, the fact that I'm

16:04

African-American, what happened if we put that front and center

16:08

and do it in a way that's not antagonistic to you?

16:10

And I acknowledge as I just spoke to you,

16:12

asking about your mother, asking about your son, and so on.

16:15

So the humanity, the shared humanity

16:19

that we have, for me, that's what

16:24

it means to come out of Texas. I mean, this is the state that Juneteenth is all about.

16:30

This is the state where I grew up with nine HBCUS

16:35

that I could throw a rock out of my grandmother's yard

16:39

and break a window, and I didn't do that,

16:41

but this is how close the HBCU is.

16:45

I grew up seeing African-American youth

16:48

with books and dress smart and the richness of that, Erica--

16:54

and also the fact that I didn't grow up in an all black neighborhood.

16:57

So I grew up surrounded by Mexican-Americans.

17:01

I grew up surrounded by Asian-Americans,

17:03

some Indigenous folks. Because again, you got New Mexico

17:06

on one side, Oklahoma, Arkansas. I could just go on and on.

17:09

Erika RANDALL: What corner were you? REILAND RABAKA: Dallas.

17:11

Erika RANDALL: Dallas. OK. REILAND RABAKA: So that's going to be the North. But let me answer about Mrs. Robinson.

17:15

Mrs. Robinson, my first grade teacher.

17:18

I was, again, young and precocious, a ball of energy.

17:22

My mother would always say whatever you give the other kids, you need to give him

17:25

three times as much. Mrs. Robinson knew that she could speed dial my mother.

17:30

In fact, all she needed to say was "don't make me call your mother," and I would back down.

17:34

So Mrs. Robinson-- it's black history month, Mrs. Robinson has these little almost

17:39

like placards, larger than a postcard size,

17:43

of different black history month figures.

17:45

So you know, Ella Fitzgerald was on one.

17:47

Let's say, Billie Holiday, you name it.

17:50

Jesse Owens, Paul Robeson, Zora Neale Hurston, Langston Hughes,

17:53

Erika RANDALL: Jackie Robinson. REILAND RABAKA: You see what I'm saying? Erika RANDALL: Yeah.

17:55

Yeah. REILAND RABAKA: And so everybody--

17:57

I thought I should get Duke Ellington or Billie holiday

18:01

or Thelonious Monk, Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker,

18:03

Charles Mingus, I could just do this all day long.

18:05

And I sit up here, I thought at that time,

18:08

this is my little first grade mind so just bear with me,

18:12

I got a frenchman Du Bois.

18:14

ERIKA RANDALL: Du Bois. REILAND RABAKA: Right? Because again, I got some creole folk right on the other side.

18:19

And I stormed up to Mrs. Robinson's desk, you know how--

18:24

you know how kids can be. And I can't believe it it's black history month,

18:28

everybody else got black people and I got a white man,

18:31

I got a French man named Du Bois, and everything.

18:35

And she gave me a good talking to that changed my life.

18:39

And this is the power of teachers. And she said Reiland, if you spent

18:43

as much time actually reading as you do sitting up here

18:47

trying to criticize my teaching and what

18:49

I'm doing, if you don't go sit down, I'm going to call your mama, boy.

18:53

You know? And so I ran back to my desk, sat down,

18:56

read the card and everything. I still had my lips stuck out, but I

18:59

read the card or whatever. And the more I read, the more fascinated, the more intrigued.

19:04

It actually said that Du Bois went to an HBCU, Fisk University, in Nashville, Tennessee.

19:10

So again, my grandmother lives within walking

19:12

distance of an HBCU. I'm thinking, wow, wait, what's going on?

19:15

Then I come to find out that this person had achieved

19:19

two bachelor's degrees, two Master's degrees

19:23

and the equivalent of two PhDs.

19:25

One of them, he studied at the University of Berlin.

19:27

ERIKA RANDALL: In how many different disciplines?

19:29

REILAND RABAKA: Oh, gosh, yeah.

19:31

Four different disciplines that he wrote his first dissertation

19:35

at the University of Berlin in German.

19:38

So traveling, that also impressed me.

19:40

ERIKA RANDALL: So the world opens. REILAND RABAKA: Right, a whole nother world.

19:43

The fact that he was well traveled, well read.

19:45

When I saw photos of him, he was well dressed.

19:48

And then there was a connect. From the preachers that I'm seeing

19:52

in the African-American church to the jazz musicians,

19:55

they're also dressed, Miles Davis got,

19:57

what, GQ Man of the Year was it 10 times in a row, at least

20:00

seven times in a row. I mean, this guy was clean.

20:02

ERIKA RANDALL: Yes. REILAND RABAKA: And so for me, learning about Dubois

20:06

and the fact that he connected his intellectual pursuits

20:12

with his social justice pursuits, this person

20:14

not only-- you know, he founded sociology in the United

20:17

States of America, he also founded the NAACP, the National

20:21

Association for the Advancement of Colored People February

20:24

the 12th, 1909. And then I found out, Erica, later on, now this

20:28

is later on, Mrs. Robinson walked

20:30

me into the library where there was Mrs. [? Leisner, ?]

20:33

my librarian at the time.

20:36

And she just said, hey, if you really want to read something,

20:39

here's some of his books. Of course, I couldn't make them through it at the first great.

20:43

So once they got the children's level book about Dubois's life,

20:48

I think I kept that checked out--

20:50

ERIKA RANDALL: It just said stamp, Reiland-- REILAND RABAKA: You know what I'm saying?

20:52

ERIKA RANDALL: Stamp, Reiland. REILAND RABAKA: And it changed my life

20:55

to be perfectly honest with you. So not only was he an intellectual,

20:58

not only was he an activist with the NAACP work--

21:01

ERIKA RANDALL: 1909. REILAND RABAKA: Right. ERIKA RANDALL: Right. REILAND RABAKA: I find out that he wrote five novels.

21:04

ERIKA RANDALL: The novels he wrote blew my mind.

21:06

You introduced that to me. That was a gift from you, that he--

21:10

REILAND RABAKA: Isn't that incredible? ERIKA RANDALL: Yeah, and that he's writing, and in the novels

21:13

he's also bringing his story forward. REILAND RABAKA: There you go.

21:16

ERIKA RANDALL: And that is such a potent way of expressing--

21:19

REILAND RABAKA: Historical fiction, sociological fiction.

21:21

I didn't even know such genres existed.

21:23

ERIKA RANDALL: And it feels like they really were born of the black experience.

21:26

REILAND RABAKA: There you go. ERIKA RANDALL: Yes. REILAND RABAKA: Absolutely.

21:28

It's what-- Erica, it's what we would call Afro Modernism.

21:31

And I think this would explain my preoccupation

21:33

with the Harlem Renaissance, and in fact, many people

21:36

say that Dubois's 1903 classic, The Souls of Black Folk

21:41

was a precursor to what happened 15

21:44

years later with the beginning of the Harlem Renaissance.

21:46

ERIKA RANDALL: That is where I was like-- this was just

21:49

already coming-- this was like, here's your model,

21:51

here's your map. REILAND RABAKA: There you go. ERIKA RANDALL: And when you talk about him being a proto

21:54

interdisciplinarian, proto intersectionalist, and on this podcast, a proto andar,

21:58

because he is making it up, making it up and transforming

22:03

through that not need to categorize.

22:07

REILAND RABAKA: I think this is where I get in trouble at CU.

22:10

You are talking to somebody-- you know, ethnic studies is rostered in social science.

22:14

But you're also talking to somebody who's a core faculty

22:16

member of humanities. Did you know that?

22:19

I'm in the humanities-- ERIKA RANDALL: I do know that. REILAND RABAKA: I'm a professor of humanities.

22:21

ERIKA RANDALL: Yeah. That's realness. REILAND RABAKA: And so for me, Dubois

22:24

is a model, an incessant model because Dubois was

22:29

able to be a social scientist.

22:32

So an intellectual, a artist, five novels,

22:37

nine volumes of poetry, three dozen short stories, two dozen

22:40

plays. I could go on and on and on, and an activist.

22:43

So for me, I mean, those are-- maybe

22:46

those labels fit what I'm up to best, intellectual artist,

22:50

activists, maybe those three things, I'm kind of cool with.

22:54

But I don't want people to silo me off into only one of those.

22:57

And I'm looking at these incredible personalities

22:59

of the Harlem Renaissance and the way

23:02

that Langston Hughes was a poet, a novelist, a playwright,

23:06

an essayist, a travel logist, I could just go on and on and on.

23:11

Hurston, oh my lord, Hurston, a novelist, a short story writer,

23:15

and essayist-- ERIKA RANDALL: An ambassador. REILAND RABAKA: Choreographer, a singer,

23:18

a cultural anthropologist, a folklorist.

23:21

I could just go on and on and on. And I think, Erica, has the Academy forced folks

23:26

like you and I to reduce ourselves

23:30

in order to fit into these little tenure schemes?

23:32

ERIKA RANDALL: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that is one of the things where--

23:35

where this notion of pushing the idea of we

23:38

are more than just the category we got hired in

23:41

has felt so critical to me. We have been stuck into a frame.

23:46

And it's just-- REILAND RABAKA: And they forced--

23:48

they forced you to in order to achieve tenure. Now the second some folks achieve tenure, they explode.

23:53

ERIKA RANDALL: Yeah, and then you can kick back. And they're like, look what-- you're like,

23:55

I've always been into this. I was always doing this trouble.

23:57

Did you feel a freedom, or did you come in with it?

24:00

REILAND RABAKA: You know what, I think I'm not a good example, just because African-American

24:06

studies is always left of field in the American Academy because

24:10

of how eurocentric, heteropatriarchal

24:13

the American Academy can be. So my field is always been, I'm going to say slowly,

24:17

Erica, transdisciplinary.

24:20

By that, I know I'm using $5 words, wait hold on,

24:22

just hold on. By transdisciplinary, I mean I'm in a field,

24:28

I'm in a discipline that transcends and transgresses

24:35

the borders and boundaries, the very artificial and arbitrary

24:38

borders and boundaries of academic disciplines.

24:41

What if-- what if African-American studies

24:44

is more about the community than it is the campus?

24:48

What if African-American studies is actually about me literally

24:52

being a bridge from the community to the campus,

24:55

from the campus to the community. You see what I'm saying? ERIKA RANDALL: And you're doing it you.

24:59

You have sprinkled the magic that goes, look,

25:02

the bridge was here. And now we all see the bridge, where you always

25:04

saw the bridge, you walked the bridge, you were on the bridge,

25:06

you brought people to the bridge. Now the rest of us, slower than you, see the bridge.

25:13

And it's beautiful. REILAND RABAKA: You all have been inspirations though.

25:17

I see myself as a bridge builder. I think that just like anything, it

25:22

requires ongoing maintenance. So to receive the emails from you,

25:25

to receive the hugs and the love that I receive from you

25:29

and so many of my colleagues on that campus,

25:31

I think it's important for me to emphasize

25:34

that my worldview, my position is that the glass is actually

25:37

half full, as opposed to half empty.

25:39

And I cannot live and work in Boulder and have

25:44

an antagonistic relationship with--

25:47

I would have a heart attack, if I can be honest with you.

25:49

I mean, I'm just too much of a sensitive soul. I feel like Marvin Gaye, when he says

25:53

we're all sensitive people with (SINGING) So much to--

25:56

understand it. But I think--

25:59

ERIKA RANDALL: Don't start and then stop! Don't start and then stop!

26:01

REILAND RABAKA: You better watch out. You better watch out!

26:04

ERIKA RANDALL: Because we haven't even gotten to talking about all the things

26:07

yet when it comes to music. REILAND RABAKA: I think that for me,

26:11

if I can be honest with you, it's

26:13

the music that actually has helped me sustain myself out

26:17

here. It's therapeutic. Hey, Erica, even though I live in one

26:20

of the most vanilla environments on the face of the Earth

26:24

where I can go sometimes days and never

26:26

see another African or African-American person,

26:30

the music, for me to be able to bump the new Kendrick

26:33

Lamar the second it comes out in south central,

26:37

where he from, the fact that I can

26:39

bump that new Beyonce-- my students just bum

26:41

rushed into my office. ERIKA RANDALL: Came in with Beyonce.

26:44

[LAUGHTER] REILAND RABAKA: I didn't even know that-- I was in a meeting, I didn't even know the album dropped.

26:48

They took over my office. ERIKA RANDALL: See, you give them hope.

26:51

Because your students, the fact that you come in with a glass

26:55

and that it's half full and then you have a pitcher over here for their glasses--

26:58

REILAND RABAKA: Absolutely. ERIKA RANDALL: And so then they know. REILAND RABAKA: And I let them know that they actually

27:01

teach me. The fact that, you know, when the new J Cole dropped,

27:04

when the new whoever it is, they keep me--

27:07

if you want me teaching hip-hop at a high level,

27:09

make a contribution. Don't just take the class, contribute to the class.

27:12

And it's that very reciprocity-- ERIKA RANDALL: Keep it current.

27:14

REILAND RABAKA: It's that reciprocity that-- that's at the heart of my pedagogy.

27:18

And in fact, I want you to know, you already know this, for me,

27:22

teaching is an art. So I'm still an artist. ERIKA RANDALL: I was talking with [? Rennie ?] Harris,

27:26

we did a mini doc on Hambone, on the dance, Hambone.

27:28

REILAND RABAKA: You sent it to me, remember? And it was jamming.

27:30

ERIKA RANDALL: Now it's better. It's done. REILAND RABAKA: Can you send me the new?

27:33

ERIKA RANDALL: I'm getting the sound balanced. I'm not sending you the unbalanced.

27:35

And thinking about the way that these stories, how we--

27:39

Rennie said a thing that was just so real. And in dance, this is the truth and in music, this

27:44

is the truth, that the people who oppress us

27:46

are also learning from us.

27:49

So as much as they're taking, they're also learning.

27:52

And that is where-- that's how our country was made.

27:55

And it's made on--

27:58

on the pains and the backs and the crimes of so many.

28:02

But there was also exchange.

28:04

And if we don't honor that in these independent states,

28:07

we're not honoring the true exchange of our intellectual

28:11

and our spiritual connection.

28:13

REILAND RABAKA: I agree. ERIKA RANDALL: To one another. REILAND RABAKA: I agree.

28:15

ERIKA RANDALL: Even in the harm. REILAND RABAKA: I agree. It's a mosaic.

28:19

We actually live in a multicultural society,

28:23

although there are some people who act like it's mono,

28:26

like one culture, and we actually have many different cultures that are coming together.

28:30

We have one of the great human experiments

28:33

throughout human history here, to be

28:35

perfectly honest with you. And my commitment, my work, my brand new center, as you know,

28:40

could be called The Center for Rehumanization.

28:43

And that's not just for African-Americans, it's not just for black folk.

28:46

ERIKA RANDALL: The film talks about that. Like, you all are welcome.

28:49

REILAND RABAKA: You see what I'm saying? ERIKA RANDALL: You want to heal. You want to do the work.

28:51

REILAND RABAKA: If you come-- if you here. If you want to learn--

28:53

ERIKA RANDALL: If you want to learn. REILAND RABAKA: Right, because they are banning.

28:55

You're not hearing about them banning other-- they're banning African-American studies in Florida.

28:59

We're here in Colorado, we're going to build it up.

29:02

We're going to build a bridge from many different communities

29:04

if people really, really want to know. I do think it's shameful if they create a situation where people

29:09

have to pay $30,000 to get-- to go to college

29:12

to get access to African-American studies. That's shameful.

29:15

Something is wrong with that, to be perfectly honest with you.

29:18

And I think that's why you also see me in the community

29:20

so much. Because what I'm trying to do is be

29:23

a resource for Boulder County, for the Denver

29:27

metropolitan area, for the great state of Colorado, you hear me?

29:30

I want to shout out the Governor, who spreading some love.

29:33

ERIKA RANDALL: He spread so much love.

29:35

Yeah. But we got so much to do.

29:37

Did you-- REILAND RABAKA: We got a long way to go. ERIKA RANDALL: In order to keep up this energy because you have

29:40

to keep up this energy, and you talk about music as that,

29:43

that soul intervention, that is the thing that has got you

29:46

through and kept you alive, is-- one of them, one of them--

29:49

is that-- was that the next obvious, like I,

29:52

or was it just that I need this project,

29:54

this writing about women of soul and funk and disco?

29:58

Did that come from that space of giving back

30:01

to those women and those stories? REILAND RABAKA: And my mother and them.

30:03

I mean-- ERIKA RANDALL: My mom. REILAND RABAKA: My mama will turn--

30:06

I mean, I'm not going to be able to play this podcast for her

30:09

now until December.

30:12

So my next book is called Black Women's Liberation Movement

30:17

Music. And first and foremost, I'm actually talking about the fact

30:21

that there was a black women's liberation movement.

30:25

There are a lot of African-American women,

30:27

a lot of African women who are very committed to, first

30:31

and foremost, women's decolonization before we can ever achieve women's liberation.

30:35

So that's the first part. And the fact that a lot of the sentiment of the women's lib

30:40

movement is expressed through, here's

30:43

the subtitle of the book, soul sisters,

30:45

black feminist funksters, and afro disco divas.

30:47

So soul music, funk and disco between 1967 and 1979,

30:54

there are subtextually, lots of gender celebration critique,

31:01

commentary, affirmations that are going on.

31:04

You see what I'm saying? I mean, so it's really, really powerful,

31:08

to be perfectly honest with you. I'm actually writing a herstory of this movement

31:14

through its songs. ERIKA RANDALL: Which is what--

31:16

OK, so tell me who are these historical figures?

31:19

Can you shout out? REILAND RABAKA: Yes, absolutely. ERIKA RANDALL: Let's go. REILAND RABAKA: In terms of soul sisters, Aretha Franklin

31:23

and Nina Simone. This is in that phase.

31:25

Etta James, Tina Turner.

31:27

I got a chance to see her a lot coming up.

31:30

And phenomenal, but certainly a song--

31:33

ERIKA RANDALL: Keep going, I cut you off. REILAND RABAKA: No, no, just even a song

31:36

like Aretha Franklin's, "Respect," 1967, that song was considered an anthem for the end

31:42

of the civil rights movement. It was considered an anthem for the black power movement.

31:46

And it was considered an anthem for the women's liberation

31:49

movement. I mean, this just shows you the universality and the power,

31:52

just of one song during that period.

31:54

So soul sisters, I said, Aretha Franklin and Nina Simone.

31:58

For black feminist funksters, really, a lot of that

32:01

starts with Labelle. ERIKA RANDALL: I was going to say, because that is--

32:03

REILAND RABAKA: Patti Labelle-- ERIKA RANDALL: Futurism incarnate. REILAND RABAKA: There you go.

32:05

ERIKA RANDALL: I didn't know that until-- REILAND RABAKA: Definitely.

32:08

Definitely. So it starts with Labelle.

32:11

An artist called [? Maxienne, ?] which most people have never-- she's kind of underground.

32:15

Obviously, who they consider the queen of funk, Chaka Khan.

32:18

ERIKA RANDALL: Chaka Khan. REILAND RABAKA: And then lastly, the anti-commercial queen

32:23

of funk, Betty Davis, who's really,

32:26

really pushed the envelope on so many-- because with Betty Davis's work, she

32:29

combines not simply women's liberation,

32:31

but the sexual revolution of the 1970s, which is probably

32:34

how a lot of us in this room got here.

32:37

ERIKA RANDALL: Thank you. REILAND RABAKA: You know, but again, I

32:39

think if we really, really listen to a lot of this music,

32:42

it really-- we're talking about women owning their sexual desires,

32:46

being able to speak publicly and unafraid and unapologetically

32:51

about their sexuality, sexual pleasures, sexual desires.

32:55

And then this is how we go to my last chapter of this book, afro disco divas, where I take

32:59

on Donna Summer, Gloria Gaynor. ERIKA RANDALL: Gloria.

33:02

REILAND RABAKA: You see, Linda Clifford, Grace Jones, Diana

33:05

Ross, et cetera. But again, disco is even more.

33:08

Why? Because I'm able to queer it to show that even though you have

33:12

these afro disco divas, a lot of their audience

33:15

were queer white men, queer Latinx men.

33:18

ERIKA RANDALL: Who are feeling the realness of the world that

33:22

got put forth by these goddess extremes.

33:25

REILAND RABAKA: So the universality of this music-- so instead of being limited simply

33:29

to black women or to African-American women, what

33:32

about, Erica, the universality of the African-American

33:36

experience? I could talk to you about my love affair,

33:39

again, with folks like Bob Dylan, or the Beatles,

33:42

or the Rolling Stones, or Led Zeppelin, you just name it.

33:46

And so I think that for me, that's what the art conservatory education allowed,

33:50

that I was exchanging records. I'm trading my--

33:54

I'm trading my John Coltrane Quartet tape cassette,

33:57

because back then, it was cassettes, I'm trading my John Coltrane cassette for somebody's Beatles

34:01

cassette. ERIKA RANDALL: Little Simon and Garfunkel. REILAND RABAKA: You see what I'm saying though?

34:04

And so you have this the very exchange

34:06

that real universities are supposed to be about,

34:09

that we can do it on equal footing. ERIKA RANDALL: I was thinking about--

34:12

I was listening to Lynn Collins recently because I--

34:14

think, and it takes two, and the helmet, and I was, like, oh, it takes two.

34:17

That is everything ampersand. And then I listened again to that song, I was like,

34:21

oh my god, Janice Joplin was listening to Lynn Collins.

34:23

REILAND RABAKA: There you go. And Janis Joplin, from Texas, by the way.

34:27

ERIKA RANDALL: From Texas. REILAND RABAKA: Port Arthur to be exact, right outside

34:29

of Houston. Janis Joplin actually bought Bessie Smith her tombstone.

34:36

This is how influenced she was. She knows that there's no way to talk about a pop diva

34:40

in the United States of America that doesn't-- cannot be traced

34:43

back to Bessie Smith. Ma Rainey before Bessie Smith, right?

34:47

This is really, really fascinating because Janis Joplin, to me, also borrows a great deal

34:52

from Etta James, which most people won't acknowledge

34:56

for whatever reason. ERIKA RANDALL: Why not? REILAND RABAKA: I think that--

34:58

ERIKA RANDALL: If she were still alive, she would-- don't you think she would--

35:01

REILAND RABAKA: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that--

35:03

I think this is why I have a love affair probably

35:06

more with the blues rock tradition coming out of Britain.

35:08

Because folks like Eric Clapton, folks like The Beatles,

35:12

The Rolling Stones, wait, The Rolling Stones name,

35:14

they won't even have a name. They named themselves after a Muddy Waters song, 1957,

35:19

one of his first hit records called Rolling Stone,

35:21

by the way. I think that we can live in a world

35:23

where I like Bobby Blue Bland and B.B. King and Koko Taylor,

35:29

and I like just a lot of different-- my ears

35:32

are really, really big. So I'm listening to everything.

35:35

And I think that there's a tendency to say, well,

35:37

what kind of music do you like? And people will have to say one little--

35:40

ERIKA RANDALL: That's right. REILAND RABAKA: You know, corporate America genre that they've come up with.

35:44

Listen, don't make me start talking about hip-hop, right?

35:46

I mean, excuse me, the tragedy of contemporary rap music

35:51

is that I think that, as you know, in my work,

35:55

I wrote the Hip-hop Movement Trilogy, so I wrote a trilogy on hip-hop.

35:58

In the trilogy, I've identified more than 75 forms

36:01

of rap music. The sad reality is most people only know

36:05

about two forms of rap music. They know about commercial rap, or what I

36:08

call radio rap and gangsta rap.

36:10

So the fact that there's queer rap, the fact that there's

36:13

FemC's, these are MC's with feminist sensibilities.

36:16

The fact that there's Buddhist rap, there's Hawaiian rap,

36:18

there's German rap, there's certainly a lot of rap

36:20

all throughout Africa, Latin America. ERIKA RANDALL: Do you put MC Light in the FemC camp?

36:23

Because she is everything to me. That's who I grew up.

36:25

REILAND RABAKA: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, and I'm also saying that I understand

36:28

that just because you and I might label somebody a,

36:30

quote, unquote, "feminist MC" or a womanist MC, they may never mess with--

36:34

with the F word, meaning feminism.

36:36

ERIKA RANDALL: Right. No, no, no, that was Martha Graham. She's like, I'm not a feminism.

36:38

REILAND RABAKA: You see what I'm saying? Like, there's some baggage right now

36:41

that's even been attached to that word. ERIKA RANDALL: Especially from a black female perspective.

36:45

REILAND RABAKA: There you go. And so this is what Tricia Rose is working Black Noise, where

36:49

she talks about a lot of them may never-- like, my mother

36:52

and my grandmother may never use the word feminism,

36:55

but they are strong, brilliant, beautiful, outspoken,

36:59

assertive, these are all qualities to me, women.

37:02

And they may never-- so we need to understand

37:05

the limitations, so the pluses and the minuses, of labeling.

37:10

And how no matter how cool and in-vogue

37:13

that may be on a college campus, in the community,

37:15

that could play itself out very differently. And I think that you and I, as artists,

37:18

understand whatever we think is so hip and hot and cool.

37:21

ERIKA RANDALL: It's about to change. It's already old.

37:23

REILAND RABAKA: And that's the beauty though of us being able to have day jobs where--

37:29

I mean, should I put this on the mic? You are aware that they actually buy my CDs now.

37:34

ERIKA RANDALL: I know. REILAND RABAKA: CU Boulder buys my CDs. ERIKA RANDALL: Yeah, because now they're like, oh, this guy.

37:37

This guy. They're a little late to the party.

37:39

REILAND RABAKA: Well, it only took me almost 20 years of staying out here for them to finally do it.

37:44

They're doing it. And thank you. ERIKA RANDALL: They're doing it and thank you.

37:47

My friend, we are at the moment of the quick and dirty.

37:50

This is my favorite part, where you get to just spill.

37:53

And I know you can do this because you can just--

37:55

you can go with a litany. And I'm going to stick to some of my questions.

37:59

Again, quick not dirty, or they can be dirty.

38:01

So I'm going to-- some obvious that are going to be easy, just to get you

38:04

started. OK. Gladys? REILAND RABAKA: Knight.

38:06

ERIKA RANDALL: And? REILAND RABAKA: The Pips. ERIKA RANDALL: Yeah, I'm just saying.

38:08

OK. So you see the game. Do you see it--

38:10

REILAND RABAKA: I see the game. ERIKA RANDALL: Smokey Robinson. REILAND RABAKA: And the Miracle.

38:13

ERIKA RANDALL: OK. So then let's go Diana Ross.

38:15

REILAND RABAKA: And The Supremes. ERIKA RANDALL: OK. Then we're going to go--

38:18

well, not everybody knows Patti Labelle and?

38:20

REILAND RABAKA: The Bluebelles. ERIKA RANDALL: There we go. OK.

38:22

Now give me one. REILAND RABAKA: Jimi Hendrix.

38:25

ERIKA RANDALL: Oh, Yep. And the mm, mm people.

38:28

Oh shiza! My mother's going to kill me.

38:31

REILAND RABAKA: Jimi Hendrix and the-- The Jimi Hendrix Experience, Jimi Hendrix and the Band

38:35

of Gypsy's. ERIKA RANDALL: OK. So then I was thinking-- it's the--

38:38

it's the moving people, or moving company, right?

38:41

Janis Joplin, the Moving Company. What are some other ones we can fail at?

38:44

REILAND RABAKA: Oh, let's-- oh wow, here we go. Bob Marley?

38:47

ERIKA RANDALL: And The Wailers. OK. I got that one. OK.

38:50

REILAND RABAKA: Let's see. I can do this all day.

38:52

ERIKA RANDALL: Once you get in the groove. REILAND RABAKA: Oh, my lord. Wait.

38:55

Wait. Michael Jackson. ERIKA RANDALL: OK. And The Jackson Five.

38:57

REILAND RABAKA: Prince, and? ERIKA RANDALL: OK. And The Revolution. REILAND RABAKA: Yeah.

38:59

ERIKA RANDALL: OK. We can do this all day. OK. OK. So two-- if you were going to like, are you fourteeners?

39:05

Do you go up high, or are you more? REILAND RABAKA: Sometime. ERIKA RANDALL: OK.

39:07

So on a Sunday though, two trails you would have to hit or two locations.

39:11

REILAND RABAKA: Oh wow. Arapaho National Forest.

39:15

I love it out there. Tell them, please.

39:17

I'm incognegro when I'm out there. So you know I'm not wearing my little African beret.

39:21

I'm just out there doing my thing. That's definitely one of them.

39:24

To be honest with you, I mean, there are so many trails around here.

39:27

El Dorado, I just like tricking off.

39:29

ERIKA RANDALL: I know. I love that. Well, and the water right away, it just hits me.

39:33

OK. Another andar that you admire?

39:36

Someone else who's like anding in the world besides a Dubois and all these other litanies you've listed?

39:42

REILAND RABAKA: Meshell Ndegeocello. I think the way that she explodes

39:45

the boundaries of the music. Cassandra Wilson.

39:49

Beyonce even. I mean, I'm really, really-- listen Erica,

39:51

I think that there's a love affair

39:54

that I have with women's music.

39:56

Because I think that oppressed groups, we can sing it in a way

40:04

that we can't say it. So if I went out and said-- like when N.W.A said come and F

40:08

the Police, they can rap it.

40:10

But if they say it, they might shoot-- they might shoot you down.

40:13

I ain't going to bring up-- ERIKA RANDALL: Everyone's going to sing along with you.

40:15

REILAND RABAKA: You see what I'm saying? So it's one of those kinds of things

40:17

where I'm really, really-- I'm seeing that for a lot more Queer artists.

40:20

I'm really, really into Queer rap. So I like Big Freedia.

40:23

I like Angel Haze. There's so many of them that I teach about in my work

40:27

to be perfectly honest with you. And so for me, I think that part of it

40:31

is my students are the andors that I'm really, really into.

40:34

Because they open themselves to me

40:36

exploding their conception of rap.

40:39

Like I'm pushing them to move beyond radio.

40:41

I'm really into the mixtape game. I'm really into underground rap.

40:45

I'm really into experimental rap. I'm really into a lot of this left of field rap

40:49

that's mixing genres far and wide.

40:52

And I think that's what sort of--

40:56

even directing this center right now,

40:58

when I say African-American, I think you know because you know your brother.

41:02

When I say African-American, it's a hemispheric conception of the Americas.

41:07

So it's North, Central, and South,

41:10

including the Caribbean islands. So it's a Western hemisphere conception

41:15

of let's explore Africanity throughout

41:19

the Western hemisphere. Let's see the connections that exist literally

41:23

between not simply continental Africa, but also Europe.

41:26

Why? Because I come out of an area of this country

41:30

that is actually incredibly creolized.

41:33

And so for me, that's why jazz is such a metaphor.

41:35

That's why it makes so much sense. That's why the way I was educated makes so much sense.

41:41

This sort of ragtag cast of characters that comes together

41:44

to produce someone like me, not simply at home,

41:47

but in the church, but also school. And so my teachers right now have had such

41:53

an incredible impact on me. Prince, I mean, a constant--

41:57

just somebody that constantly, I think, pushes the envelope.

42:01

There's so many. I mean, in terms of rap artists, Rapsody, arguably my favorite.

42:05

I think that there are just so many of them

42:07

who really push the envelope.

42:10

And they understand that they need to do what they got to do to be commercially viable, or not.

42:15

And then they just go left to field.

42:18

So I think that-- I'm really interested in people that take risks

42:20

people like yourself who are not afraid to get out

42:23

of their comfort zone, push themselves to that next level, who are more interested in the process

42:28

than the end product. I'm not really--

42:32

I mean, if you ask me about the cause

42:34

and where I see the cause going 5, 10 years from now,

42:36

I can see the endowment. But exactly how that looks and feel,

42:40

that depends on the students that I'm rocking with,

42:42

the staff, the community members, the allies that I'm rocking with.

42:45

Yeah, so it's very open ended.

42:48

That's what excites me. ERIKA RANDALL: So if you could send

42:52

one blessing, last question, forward to your students,

42:55

your teachers that would send them off the--

43:00

my Irish family would say, and may the road rise to meet you.

43:05

What would your "and may you," or "and shall," or "and."

43:10

REILAND RABAKA: Wow. ERIKA RANDALL: Yeah. REILAND RABAKA: Wow.

43:13

ERIKA RANDALL: Don't overthink. You got it.

43:17

REILAND RABAKA: Don't be afraid to take risks,

43:19

that for me, that's what the jazz aesthetic is about.

43:23

For me, jazz isn't music, it's a philosophy, it's a way of life.

43:28

And so be open to the sound of surprise, the sight and sounds

43:36

of surprise, the experience.

43:38

Crave it. Go out of your way to do something new.

43:43

And I would also challenge them, encourage them, implore

43:46

them to keep teaching me. Because for me, teaching is not simply an art.

43:52

It's an act of love. [MUSIC PLAYING]

43:57

ERIKA RANDALL: That was Professor

44:00

of Ethnic Studies, Reiland Rabaka, on The Ampersand.

44:03

To learn more about Dr. Rabaka's research

44:05

and the Center for African and African-American Studies

44:08

at the University of Colorado, Boulder, see our show notes.

44:11

[MUSIC PLAYING]

44:13

The ampersand is a production of the College

44:16

of Arts and Sciences at the University of Colorado,

44:18

Boulder. It is written and produced by me, ERIKA Randall,

44:22

and Tim Grassley. If there are people you'd like us

44:25

to interview on The Ampersand, do please email

44:27

us at [email protected].

44:32

Our theme music was composed and performed by Nelson Walker.

44:34

And the episodes are recorded at Interplay Recording

44:37

in Boulder, Colorado.

44:39

I'm ERIKA Randall, and this is The Ampersand.

44:42

[MUSIC PLAYING]