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Jonesy that former Tory musician promoter

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at Yardage Charm have were last

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to settle for anything less than

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extraordinary. Or

2:23

I'll kick off today show. Today.

2:26

We're talking or Thomas during a leading

2:28

expert on perfectionism, We discuss a simple

2:30

mindset ship that can break the chains

2:32

of perfection and bring joy into your

2:35

life. Thomas is an associate professor in

2:37

the department of Psychological and Behavioral Science

2:39

at the London School of Economics. In.

2:42

The author of The Perfection Trap.

2:45

The. Power of good enough in a world that

2:47

always wants more. Know. We discuss the

2:49

reasons that Perfectionism is a relationship

2:51

killer and how to become vulnerable

2:53

to strengthen our relationships. We. Break

2:56

down the three dimensions of perfectionism and

2:58

how to sell process to determine which

3:00

trap you're falling into. He also shares

3:02

his own personal struggles with perfectionism and

3:04

how he now find meaning in his

3:07

work. As well as the

3:09

secret to read frame your mindset around

3:11

perfectionism to turned into a superpower instead

3:13

of an excuse. Wasn't. A show

3:15

Thomas so great to have you! Thank you

3:17

Have me! I'm excited for Archer and what

3:19

inspired you to write The profession trap of you

3:22

Had your own struggles with perfectionism. Yeah.

3:24

Destiny out firing of of sexiness

3:26

Am a Me or the Criterion

3:28

a Sunday school highly on the

3:30

measures of use. It's something that

3:32

has sunny helped me in some

3:34

respects raised me for that. It's

3:36

made me successful I suppose, but

3:38

it also has a lot of

3:40

baggage. Nobody comes in waves and

3:42

of worry. Brooding. Rumination about

3:44

little mistakes and only the

3:46

time that can be quite

3:49

exhausting. And Sunday that was case.

3:51

May I speak Laws minister was and

3:53

burn out. And. That was the moment

3:55

when I realized pops into some in that

3:57

could be hold me back. When.

3:59

It's and then. It more in my life but also

4:01

in the light of other people take some

4:03

and us all around me so that was

4:05

the impetus to study and that a bit

4:07

more do the research try to find out

4:09

what this thing isn't what it does to

4:11

us as so I did the ted talk,

4:14

did the books and that on speak the.

4:16

And. What I loved about the

4:18

book of their so many great examples

4:20

of really successful people people we look

4:22

up to. Who. Our leave feel

4:24

and seem like the habit together but

4:27

internally they are perfectionists and driven by

4:29

that perfectionism to success but also dealing

4:31

with the struggles in the downsides of

4:33

that perfectionism and is is great example

4:35

Steve Jobs who a lot of people

4:38

look up to him and success with

4:40

Apple but the people at work to

4:42

them, the people that love salmon relationships

4:44

with them they saw and felt all

4:46

the downsides of his perfectionism. Yeah.

4:49

Absolutely Kills isn't really interesting

4:51

case that infects it's are

4:53

extremely high achiever means made

4:55

up other one is the

4:57

most successful business people ever.

4:59

However despite all the innovations

5:01

and building up was fortunes

5:04

backup from where it was

5:06

before he came. It. Was

5:08

a story of A and guys use

5:10

less The traces of a destruction is

5:13

wager A to testimony of his colleagues

5:15

is a very vivid about his exceptionally

5:17

high standards and how he didn't meet

5:20

them. That was a big problem or

5:22

how he himself has never satisfied. had

5:24

to be better, had to be improved.

5:27

and ah and say not only did

5:29

that take a toll on himself but

5:31

it also took a toll on people

5:34

he worked with. Say is a very

5:36

interested intersections in it's it's. One way

5:38

to do as such as certainly. ah

5:40

but it would or would know that

5:43

it's not the only way to do

5:45

but jobs as an example of what

5:47

faction is kinda consented to exception performance

5:50

the term perfectionism seen them. When.

5:52

I was growing up more

5:54

of a compulsive. Obsessive

5:57

compulsive behavior of chasing.

6:00

Perfection. We're in now. It

6:02

seems as if it's almost

6:05

normalized in. Our. Lives

6:07

we see this popping up many

6:09

times. We certainly have had a

6:11

few perfectionists experts on the show.

6:13

So where do you see this

6:15

going and why do you think

6:17

it is now? Went from a

6:19

pass allergy to something that is

6:21

more normalize in our everyday lives

6:24

as some really great question and

6:26

charging. there's a lot to unpack

6:28

their it's it to be question.

6:30

And. It certainly true that if you

6:32

go back through the decade new centuries

6:35

view is written records. it's perfection and

6:37

chase infection and and inherent dangers that

6:39

come with it and how it can

6:42

lead core an empty existence of an

6:44

emphasis satisfy causes with some more but

6:46

at the same time when we slip

6:48

up a make mistakes in an associates

6:51

a lot of popular fiction poetry philosophy

6:53

through the ages is one of the

6:55

dangers of chasing perfection and that was

6:57

also the case even recent as two

7:00

i think not. That long ago in

7:02

even in living memory ritual to use posts

7:04

will consensus new deal he often society or

7:06

is the middle class is right as the

7:09

average Joe that was celebrated isn't Flintstones the

7:11

Jetsons, it wasn't the the path at unicorn

7:13

achievers ill at ease of heroes and in

7:16

a not error and as because we lived

7:18

in a different economy where we were growing

7:20

the economy for the betterment of everybody. Witch

7:22

hunt a list people are. Free.

7:25

Or economic progress and and the proceed

7:27

to the growth was shared was recently

7:30

said anywhere and not lead to have

7:32

a great deal of listing of people

7:34

up the a social hierarchy. I think

7:36

today we have a very different society

7:38

very this economy the apex a society's

7:41

narrowed his we've focused on the winners

7:43

and enough people would platform these days

7:45

not the average Joe's second the had

7:47

to see or is you know the

7:50

sports as the to the not impossible

7:52

of course but improbable Lee high achievers.

7:54

That that we put on a pedestal Say that's

7:56

what we need to emulate. I think that's why

7:59

we're seeing today. Perfection. Turn into something

8:01

that isn't the dangerous warning add

8:03

that we had in the past,

8:05

but rather the desirable, unobtainable ideal

8:07

of course, isn't those things and

8:10

a recent exhausting chase to try

8:12

to meet what are exceptionally improbable

8:14

outcomes. but nevertheless, that's what we

8:16

celebrate. and I think that's why

8:19

we see a lot of sexism

8:21

these days. and we that of

8:23

sexism. positive light. And. Now unpacking

8:25

Perfectionism you talk about three dimensions of

8:27

for fascism in the book that I

8:29

think will add some great contacts for

8:31

the audience to sort of self assassin

8:33

another to self assessment in the book

8:35

as well. but to really understand the

8:38

different sides of perfectionism because I think

8:40

we all kind of have preconceived notions

8:42

of what you mean by perfectionism and

8:44

on. I was really inspired to learn

8:46

three dimensions and see myself in a

8:48

couple of them. Yeah. That's

8:50

the interesting about faces really does

8:52

them as it does look new

8:54

ones to it. And we know

8:56

this because we spoken see hundreds

8:58

and hundreds of perfection. The people

9:00

by in clinical settings and community

9:02

systems and or research we find

9:05

time and time again. Subsections: I'm

9:07

is a is a multi dimensional

9:09

characteristic so it isn't just about

9:11

high so set standards and goes

9:13

this need to be perfect. That's

9:15

one aspect Face requests. Self oriented

9:17

profession com sir may been so

9:19

quintessentially. The driver supposed to work on

9:21

it you might you might think of

9:24

in your mind's eye it's more than

9:26

that, it's more than so set standards,

9:28

it's good, a social element to our

9:30

faces operation Iraqi and just as we

9:32

expect ourselves to be pass at wheels

9:34

a thing the other people have the

9:36

same expectations of us to say as

9:38

socially discard the site and another aspect

9:41

of sexism which is aside and perception

9:43

that we think other people expect us

9:45

to be perfect and nothing but perfect.

9:47

Mommy slipped up there waiting to judges

9:49

negatively. On the third element of fiction

9:51

see Tommy Tommy Gun Effects as if people

9:53

is not just high so said goes it's

9:56

not consist expectations place for through the placed

9:58

on his but is also experts. We

10:00

put on other people. So. I expect

10:03

you to be perfect and if you're not

10:05

gonna let you know you're a this only

10:07

fact of life with my to be perfect

10:09

for you're gonna need to be perfect T

10:11

studies free Alamo situation really interesting they sell

10:13

spectrums me can be high on self maybe

10:15

a little bit in the middle of so

10:17

sure that may be quite low enough or

10:19

noses with different consolation said this Nikes a

10:21

one size fits all but perfectionism is a

10:23

relational. Try it. as a consequence, there are

10:26

important social elements to consider alongside that those

10:28

high sauce expectations. And I

10:30

think going along with that the

10:32

internalized where you're looking at yourself

10:34

and self assessing perfectionism. ah we

10:36

often feel but when we encounter

10:38

others who are striving because of

10:41

saw how others judge them or

10:43

because of how are they seal

10:45

other should be behaving and judging

10:47

others around this perfection that can

10:49

be very difficult to encounter and

10:52

social relationships. Romantic relationships are in

10:54

business settings so when we looked

10:56

at not are self prescribed self

10:58

oriented but. Instead, we look at the

11:00

Social Prescribed. Perfectionist.

11:03

How. Do we actually manage those relationships

11:05

when they're so closely tied to

11:07

how they're perceived by others and

11:09

then also sometimes putting that judgment

11:11

on us and in our actions

11:13

and behaviors? In our relationship. Yeah.

11:16

This is why the Testimony game

11:18

at the Jobs say interesting because

11:20

add your design perfectionism was projected

11:23

outwards on to other people and

11:25

and although it created a climate

11:27

of exceptional performance, it also create

11:30

a climate of interpersonal hostility and

11:32

disharmony are adding there's a balance

11:35

to the to be struck and

11:37

if you are in a a

11:39

context of extreme standards and there's

11:42

a sense and and or of

11:44

perfection is expected upon. You and

11:46

there's a lot of avoided faces in your

11:48

team. Where is a lot of people who

11:50

are putting excesses and this on on t

11:53

a thing is really super important? That is

11:55

that Allah in that run its course and

11:57

cray all sorts of problems. Lay it the

11:59

road that we get on top of it

12:01

and we talk about it and we actually

12:03

break down his expectations and described the people

12:06

exactly why they're excessive and what our concerns

12:08

are. With these it's I suppose in terms

12:10

of the quality of the the thing that

12:12

we crazy when repeat p supposed to be

12:14

a product our be a new innovation Whatever

12:16

it is part of this process is that

12:19

things are going to need to get done.

12:21

They. Can never be perfect. Answer is really

12:24

important to have honest conversations about looks

12:26

good enough and any if we can

12:28

do that as teens can break down

12:30

his highness assist on the drink, be

12:32

more innovative and not last another mentioned

12:34

jobs. His way of doing things is

12:36

one way to do it but it's

12:38

not the only way you can have

12:40

the same the high quality outcomes but

12:42

with much less competition, stress and pressure

12:44

and not the boss we need to

12:47

strike. I think those expectations

12:49

are often not communicated outside of

12:51

action cell and they get a

12:53

lot of our clients. You are

12:55

nice guys and gals who enter

12:57

into these covert contracts were they

12:59

behave in a certain way in

13:01

their mind, the perfect way they're

13:04

seeking perfection, their relationships, how they

13:06

schwab, how they serve others, people

13:08

pleasing and in turn their off

13:10

and let down by others behaviors

13:12

when they have not actually communicated

13:14

any expectations around what they want

13:16

to see in. That relationship they've just

13:19

behaved in a manner that they're hoping

13:21

will be mirrored back to them, reflected

13:23

back to them by their actions. And

13:25

that lack of communication of expectations can

13:27

lead to that harsh criticism of others

13:29

and then in turn criticism of yourself.

13:31

Hello! new see internal resentment is wow

13:33

right because if you enjoy expressed expectations

13:36

in the first place than is probably

13:38

likely have been expressed his disapproval subsequent

13:40

to the answer you going on yourself

13:42

and start the reasons that the think

13:44

these people and not not work because

13:46

funds they don't understand the process and

13:48

what's needed a new the rest of

13:50

the countries that see our into undies

13:52

can breed a lot of negative thoughts

13:55

about the workplace and the team see

13:57

yeah i mean aka i couldn't be

13:59

more emphasize that it's so so important

14:01

to have clear lines of communication both at the

14:03

beginning and the middle at the end and we

14:05

have to create cultures where that's where that's encouraged

14:08

right or people feel safe to

14:10

express what they think is Necessary

14:13

and needed within teams and that that is

14:15

created rule sorts of ways But the leadership

14:17

has to lead by example in that respect

14:19

and not only make it clear what's needed

14:21

But also when they happen when they've made

14:23

mistakes or when we've hit setbacks So when

14:25

things aren't going quite the plan that we

14:27

talk about that we're open about even laugh

14:29

and joke about it So that

14:31

our whole team comes with us and

14:33

they themselves feel emboldened to speak up

14:35

to contribute to share ideas It's

14:38

so so important to have clear on the

14:40

communication within the workplace because that's the most

14:42

efficient way to get things done So

14:44

if you've recognized that you struggle in

14:46

communication of these expectations on that front

14:48

What are some of the first steps

14:50

you can take taking responsibility and then

14:52

starting to break through that communication barrier

14:54

that you've created? the very first thing

14:56

if you if you struggle with excessively

14:58

high standards in your of

15:01

a perfectionistic mindset where it's got to

15:03

be a 100%

15:05

perfect every single time Otherwise

15:07

it won't go out You've got to

15:09

first recognize that's gonna hold you back that kind of thing

15:11

is gonna hold you about way more It's gonna push you

15:13

forward right if that's a block and impediment to

15:16

progress that way of thinking That's the first thing

15:18

and tell yourself every single day That

15:21

there are hundreds and hundreds of good enough ways

15:23

to get this product out or this piece of

15:25

code finished or whatever it is That you're doing

15:27

in your workplace, but there is no one perfect

15:29

way So that instantly brings

15:31

down that level of expectation to a

15:34

point at which we we feel more

15:36

comfortable to let things go Even if

15:38

it's not quite of a perfect

15:41

Level and then the conversation becomes a different

15:43

one with our colleagues and teams it becomes

15:45

okay Why do we need this to

15:47

be before we can let it go and it's

15:50

important to give your colleagues input into that

15:52

process? you know, well what

15:54

does this what does the finished product look

15:57

like and get an agreement a consensus and

15:59

then The about working on it and

16:02

say that to me is the

16:04

most important the you've got Iraq

16:06

and I says vamos it phasing

16:08

in a block you progress way

16:10

more than is gonna push forward

16:12

relaxing those have ah ambitions and

16:14

make issue. Your whole team is

16:16

involved in the decision make and

16:18

looking at it through the lens

16:20

of social and romantic relationships. Obviously

16:22

we talk about teams and workplaces.

16:24

There's cultural impact coming from leadership,

16:26

There's hierarchy but we look at

16:28

our social ties. A romantic ties.

16:30

Often times we're putting this pressure on

16:32

our partner or friends without even recognizing

16:34

it again Through that covert contract where

16:36

we have expectations were behaving in a

16:39

certain manner and those expectations are just

16:41

internal and then when that person lets

16:43

us down doesn't show up for actor

16:45

behave the way that we had expected

16:48

that self judgment can turn and towards

16:50

resentment towards the other person. So if

16:52

you find yourself in that situation. Or.

16:55

Can you do to open those lines?

16:57

A communications on the social in romantic

16:59

France to break free of that perfectionism

17:01

that's holding you back from the social

17:03

ties. charming and ethnic cleansing is so

17:05

important. I think this. This. Idea

17:08

in Khyber is the is she

17:10

an when everything is internalized and nothing

17:12

is expressed out outside of ourselves and

17:14

in communication with the people who he

17:17

replace expectations on is that isn't

17:19

sustainable and I the long on the

17:21

long run. This can an evening run

17:23

into all sources difficulty both within yourself

17:26

puddles and the relationship. With.

17:29

The most difficult thing with effect since

17:31

the people nice I myself have experienced

17:33

this is the. We

17:35

believe deeply. That. Perfectionism

17:37

is what Marxists as a

17:40

high become to them. hype

17:42

functioning person is what gives

17:44

us census competence, an identity

17:47

and so as a consequence

17:49

we don't seal internally that

17:51

what we think and how

17:53

we're approaching relationships. Is.

17:56

Problematic We don't see it that

17:58

way. Rights and enough. While in

18:00

the book on really want to emphasize

18:03

that actually that's the first step in

18:05

turn in the corners and recognizing is

18:07

actually this way of thinking is the

18:09

problem. It's it's not holding us up

18:12

in the world. At

18:14

and whenever an this you know whenever things he

18:16

likes coming down and people dislike us and we

18:18

move away of ourselves away from people because. Whenever

18:21

we proceeded, social situation is your friend

18:24

the we might be Chris as a

18:26

judge negatively is priceless. I should disconnection

18:28

a lot loneliness and then we resent

18:30

people for that because I just don't

18:32

understand this one. What we haven't recognized

18:34

as is that are perfectionism That this

18:36

creating a problem is in the first

18:38

place. setting is so so important for

18:40

us to recognize first and foremost perfectionism.

18:43

The. Data is clear, doesn't need to

18:45

high performance. if you impose on yourself

18:47

people in the workplace, you're not going

18:50

to do any better. It's related to

18:52

social disconnection and loneliness and social disharmony.

18:54

so if we take it into a

18:56

relationship is also gonna create problems at

18:59

that. Unsightly for ourselves for our own

19:01

mental health is highly correlated with problematic

19:03

mental advocacy, but lonely, depression and anxiety

19:06

as a is not even give us.

19:08

So we have to be really clear,

19:10

this is not an optimal way of

19:13

thinking. It's can create a lot of

19:15

problems, new sources fears of our lives and

19:17

says so for me turn up on it

19:19

and the mentioned it's say of the first

19:21

step is to recalibrate our expectation. I found

19:24

ourselves and other people one of the been

19:26

workplace in a relationship recognize that people are

19:28

imperfect. We live in an imperfect world gonna

19:30

be times when they piss off That gonna

19:33

be times when the day and or if

19:35

they don't me is why we think they

19:37

should meters a not a k That whole

19:39

part and parcel of be a human being

19:42

or a everybody's fallible rule. Exhaust when

19:44

we all make mistakes and once we

19:46

can start to recognize that we can

19:48

start to see the common humanity and

19:50

people around us in ourselves and there's

19:52

something incredibly liberating about are some incredibly

19:54

connecting about that because once response you

19:57

recognize your imperfect that me to start

19:59

to interact. Have finished as much deeper

20:01

level. Socrates. And

20:03

plato Lennon and Mccartney aging

20:05

Johnny would about the perfect

20:08

duo when it comes to

20:10

growing your business. Well, that's

20:12

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the book you brought up the

27:08

multi-dimensional perfectionism

27:11

scale and I think that

27:13

would be a lot of fun to discuss with our

27:15

audience. For them they're going to

27:18

want to investigate that for themselves. So if

27:20

you'd like to discuss that for them. Yeah,

27:22

so this is how we measure perfectionism. And

27:25

this is how we measure almost all

27:27

personality characteristics. Perfection is no different. What

27:29

we'll do is we'll typically ask questions

27:31

on a scale. That's kind of

27:33

a questionnaire. So

27:36

for a self-oriented perfectionism, for instance, one of the items

27:38

would be I strive to be perfect in everything I

27:40

do. Now you can agree or disagree with

27:42

that. You strongly agree,

27:44

you'll score high on the scale. If you strongly disagree,

27:46

you'll score low. And if you sort, yes, sometimes yes,

27:48

sometimes no, you score somewhere in the middle. And

27:52

for socially described perfectionism we have items

27:54

like other people expect me to be

27:56

perfect and nothing but perfect. Again, agree,

27:58

disagree. For other oriented perfectionism. An

28:00

example item might be, I expect nothing

28:03

less than perfection from those around me.

28:05

Again, agree, slightly disagree. And we aggregate

28:07

the items that we ask on this

28:09

questionnaire. And what we have

28:11

is a sliding scale. So some people will be

28:13

high on the spectrum, some people will be low,

28:15

some people will be in the middle. This is

28:17

the way, by the way, we should think about

28:19

perfectionism not as a black

28:22

or white. Yes, you're a perfectionist. No, you're not

28:24

a perfectionist, but are you more or less perfectionistic

28:26

in these areas? And

28:28

with that tool, we can do some really cool things. We

28:31

can get a mean, which gives us some

28:33

information about whether these things are changing, which

28:35

is interesting information. But it also gives us

28:37

a standard deviation, gives us some variance, which

28:39

means we can look at to see how

28:42

someone's higher on the scale of self-oriented,

28:44

whether they tend to be higher on

28:46

performance outcomes or relationship outcomes or

28:48

whatever it might be. So this

28:50

is a really useful tool. In

28:52

my book, I provide some example items

28:54

that people can have a go, self-reflect

28:57

on where they sit on those three elements of

29:00

perfectionism. I then encourage them self-reflection there, because

29:02

I think that's a really useful tool to

29:04

see where we are on that spectrum, whether

29:06

we're tending higher or lower. And

29:08

if we're tending higher, the book explains more

29:11

about what each of these are. And

29:13

we can apply those experiences

29:15

in our own life to get a much better understanding

29:17

of how perfectionistic we are. So I definitely encourage you

29:20

if you do grab hold of it to have a

29:22

little go at that, because I think it gives you

29:24

a good idea of what you said. And you talk

29:26

about this idea that a lot of

29:28

us are tied to our identity of being

29:31

a perfectionist, and we see examples of other

29:33

people reaching success, Steve Jobs being one of

29:35

them. We also may have

29:37

experienced an upbringing that demanded that

29:39

of us. So when I

29:41

think to my own upbringing and this idea

29:43

that you bring up in the book of

29:45

Good Enough, that was unacceptable in my household.

29:48

Like once I showed aptitude

29:50

in school, Good Enough,

29:52

a B, B plus, was not acceptable

29:55

at the dinner table, and meeting those

29:57

expectations of my family to reach success.

29:59

academic success became a big part of

30:01

my identity and hardwired into the way

30:03

that I approached everything. And I know

30:05

Johnny smiling and laughing because a lot

30:08

of times even within the company, I

30:10

don't settle for good enough and it could lead

30:12

to frustrations with other team members. So

30:14

to those in the audience

30:16

who have been steeped in this

30:19

mindset of perfection based on how

30:21

they were raised by their parents,

30:23

siblings, and potentially through school as

30:25

well, how can

30:27

we start to take on this idea

30:29

of good enough and actually

30:31

find it acceptable when maybe you were

30:33

raised in an environment where it was

30:35

completely unacceptable to express good enough? Just

30:38

for the humorous sake of this conversation,

30:40

AJ is correct in that and my

30:42

observations and a lot of aspects of

30:44

the company, but I also had to

30:47

reflect at my kitchen

30:49

table growing up as

30:51

well. And I loathed

30:54

school so much

30:56

because at the time I was

30:59

much more into skateboarding and music

31:01

and I was obsessed with

31:03

music even at a very early age. My

31:06

dad played in bands growing up so that

31:08

had taken my attention. And

31:11

it got apparent to my dad

31:14

that trying to nudge me into

31:16

good grades wasn't going

31:19

to work because I had completely checked

31:21

out. The conversation

31:23

at our table was just like, listen,

31:25

if you're getting seized, I'm good. I'm

31:27

not gonna bother you, let's just go.

31:30

So of course, AJ, just speaking

31:32

about that, I had to reflect and

31:35

that's why I was laughing. That's the

31:37

thing about academics is it's often structured

31:39

in a way that perfection is

31:41

the goal and it is a

31:43

measurable outcome, right? So you can get

31:45

a perfect score. You can get 100, zero wrong. And

31:50

all of my upbringing was geared around

31:52

pursuing that 100 in

31:54

any study or any subject that

31:56

I encountered. And anything

31:58

less was deemed. not

32:00

good enough and certainly unacceptable at

32:03

the dinner table. Johnny's upbringing around

32:05

creativity and art, you

32:07

know, that's a totally different dynamic where it's

32:09

very hard to measure perfection in art, right?

32:11

It's something that's completely subjective and someone might

32:13

give it a low score and say, I

32:16

don't like that piece of art and someone

32:18

might actually love that piece of art. So

32:21

those are like the dichotomy that we

32:23

struggle with internally in the company and

32:26

reflecting in our upbringing. There is a

32:28

lot of difference there. Absolutely. I

32:30

mean, it's so interesting. You've shared

32:32

divergent experiences there. I mean, you're

32:35

absolutely right. A quantity

32:37

metrics. These are like kryptonite

32:39

perfectionism because there is

32:41

an objective 100 percent. And

32:45

the problem is that anything short of that,

32:47

which by the way, 99 percent of the

32:49

time we will probably get somewhere short of

32:51

that. It's very unlikely that in every single

32:54

assessment, we're going to absolutely now, which

32:56

leads to a lot of disappointments.

32:59

And if the only thing

33:01

that matters is the perfect test

33:03

score, then life is going to be quite

33:05

disappointing most of the time. And the problem

33:07

is with perfectionism, even if you

33:09

do get 100 percent, there's always going to be

33:11

another test around the corner, right? So it's not

33:14

even if you can enjoy it. Yeah, it's not

33:16

even if you can enjoy that. And in anything,

33:18

you put more pressure on yourself because the better

33:20

you do now, the better you're expected to do

33:22

the next time. Right. So it's

33:25

exhausting to live like that. But

33:27

it certainly is still a perfectionistic

33:29

kind of thinking, which absolutely

33:31

can carry through. You see this in literature

33:34

all the time, high pressurized, high expecting environments,

33:37

very strongly correlated with life. Perfections.

33:39

I would say, though, we really have there's

33:41

an interesting second piece to this and

33:44

there's not genetics. And

33:46

we know that perfection is about 34

33:48

percent genetic, just like any other personality

33:50

characteristic. We have to be a bit

33:53

carried because it could be that our

33:55

parents perfectionism is what's

33:57

driving the behaviors, which then is. what

34:00

we're interpreting as the parent in

34:02

practice is they're actually just come

34:04

through with genetics, right? So Johnny

34:06

described the environment that wasn't as

34:08

perfectionistic as age, but that may

34:10

be because your parents didn't have

34:13

as much perfectionism and therefore they

34:15

passed on less perfectionism. So can

34:17

you see the intergenerational transmission isn't

34:19

just about socialization, but it's also

34:21

about genetics. We have to

34:23

be aware of that because why

34:25

that's important is that

34:27

I think it's something comforting about all

34:29

this in that because there's this limited

34:31

control that we have over the way

34:33

we turn out, my mum is

34:36

a classic perfectionist and the reason why I have

34:38

this these anxieties I think is because of that.

34:40

I think my past on through my mother's line

34:42

and I don't know, I think it's something quite

34:44

comforting about that. Like you know, if these ceilings

34:46

that I feel are at some level aren't my

34:48

fault and I can take a lot of solace

34:50

in that. Now nevertheless having said all that, there

34:52

is no doubt that there is a socialization piece

34:55

this and a fair effort that leaves a lot

34:57

for the environment to explain. So your question was

34:59

what do we do? Well I

35:01

think the answer to that is

35:03

in a bit about

35:05

what I've already said about recognizing perfectionism is

35:08

the issue, but also recognizing

35:10

that there's nothing wrong inherently with wanting

35:12

to do better, right? Wanting to grow.

35:14

The growth mindset for example is part

35:16

of your upbringing, AHA, right? You know

35:18

keep doing better, keep learning, keep developing,

35:20

improving, all the rest of it. Nothing

35:23

wrong with that at all,

35:25

but we have to recognize

35:27

that abundance, enoughness, is antithetical

35:29

to growth, right? Once

35:32

we reach a point, so

35:34

basically we cannot be, we cannot feel abundant,

35:37

we cannot feel complete, we cannot feel in the

35:40

conditions of growth because growth requires scarcity, it

35:43

requires lack, it requires us being in

35:45

some way less than all the

35:47

time for us to have something to improve upon.

35:50

And so I think what's really important is we recognize

35:52

yes growth is important but to a point, right?

35:55

And we have to recognize that we get to a

35:57

point in our career, in our lives where we've done

36:00

unremarkable things where we succeeded, where we've reached

36:02

the goals that we set ourselves, and then

36:04

it has to switch. Where's

36:06

the meaning? Where's the purpose? Where's the

36:08

why now? Okay, I've climbed the ladder.

36:10

I've done the hard yards. I'm

36:12

going to be living in complete misery for the rest

36:15

of my life. I'll continue to keep pushing myself with

36:17

more and more and more. I need

36:19

to recognize that it's not always

36:21

about growth. Sometimes we can level

36:24

off. Sometimes we can reach a point of stasis

36:27

that we're comfortable with, and then we can

36:29

pursue what I think brings us a lot

36:31

of joy. What is the meaning in our

36:34

work? What are we trying to leave in

36:36

the world for other people to use and appreciate and learn

36:38

from? What's our bigger purpose?

36:41

I think that would be my main

36:43

message. I don't think there's anything wrong, particularly in the

36:45

early stages of learning, of pushing ourselves a little bit

36:47

and wanting to develop, but we

36:49

also, as human beings, have to

36:52

recognize there are limits to the amount that

36:54

we can grow. Sometimes we have

36:56

done really well. We need to enjoy that and

36:58

think on a bit of a higher plane. That's where I am

37:00

with that. Yeah,

37:03

it's funny looking back at my

37:05

upbringing. One of my things after

37:07

school was to just seek a

37:10

little break mentally, emotionally, and as

37:12

an introvert. I would say, just

37:14

let me relax a little while.

37:16

That was very frustrating to my

37:18

dad. He actually made me a

37:20

t-shirt that said, just let me

37:22

relax a while. I

37:25

got to wear that t-shirt growing up

37:27

because it became a moment for him

37:29

to scold me, chide me to go

37:31

back to schoolwork, go back to learning,

37:34

go back to growing in that capacity.

37:36

Of course, now hearing that, that

37:38

there's the piece genetic, there's the

37:40

piece to the socialization, I'm concerned

37:42

as a potentially becoming a parent,

37:45

how is that going to show up in the way that

37:47

I choose to raise my kids? I'm

37:50

curious, recognizing that about your

37:52

mom and your genetics, how

37:54

you approach potentially passing on

37:56

that perfectionism. Yeah, I think

37:58

you've got to break the intergenerational chain. at some

38:00

point and recognize that you've got

38:02

to think a bit smarter. Just

38:04

zoom out. All the

38:06

data that's coming through now, for example, are

38:09

on the four-day work week, which

38:11

is staggering that you actually

38:13

get more productivity for less time invested.

38:16

Why? Because more doesn't always mean better.

38:20

It's like there's a zone of declining

38:22

and diminishing returns to every unit of

38:24

extra effort that we put in beyond

38:27

the center threshold because we're sacrificing

38:29

vitalizing activities, time with friends, time with

38:32

our family, rest,

38:34

good diet, and sleep. All these things are so,

38:36

so important to productivity at work. If we just

38:38

keep pushing us more and more and more, we'll

38:40

find is actually perform worse in

38:42

the long run. I think we just need

38:45

to think a bit smarter than this pure work

38:47

ethic, work ethic, work ethic. For

38:50

our children, I think the message really is

38:52

that it's important to work hard. There's

38:55

something intrinsically satisfying about working and

38:57

getting somewhere, achieving, growing, and all

38:59

the rest of it. Those things

39:02

are really important priorities

39:04

to instill. But at the

39:06

same time, it's really so important

39:08

for parents to be consistent in the

39:10

way that they treat

39:13

their children in terms of love and affection. When

39:15

they have done well, praise the effort, use

39:17

that as a reinforcement for the learning and

39:19

developing and growth that they've invested themselves in.

39:22

When they haven't quite done so well, let's say they haven't

39:24

nailed that test and they're really disappointed. This

39:27

is where parenting comes

39:29

into action. I

39:32

think a good parenting that has the right

39:34

values would treat kids in exactly the same

39:36

way. Give them a hug, tell

39:39

them it's fine. This isn't indictment on you.

39:41

It doesn't say anything about how much your teacher likes you, how

39:43

much your parents love you, or whatever. It's

39:45

just one disappointing test result of

39:47

many other test results that you're going to

39:49

get. It

39:52

may not have suited your skills on a particular day,

39:54

or maybe just had a bad night's sleep, but

39:56

it's fine. We love you anyway. of

40:00

approval is so, so, so important because

40:02

when you start to subtly defer approval

40:05

on the expectation of

40:07

more, bigger, better and higher

40:10

performance, then what that teaches young people

40:12

is it only really worth something as

40:14

a person when they've succeeded and that

40:16

when they have failed, that's something that

40:18

says something about them. And

40:20

that is the short path to

40:23

perfection. So consistency of level

40:25

approval is so, so important. Nothing wrong with

40:27

having high standards, but you have to be

40:29

consistent when they've done well, when they haven't

40:31

done quite so well, this treatment is the

40:33

same. And finally, just quickly to sign this,

40:35

because I think it's so, so important. Kids

40:37

are very impressionable creatures. So if

40:40

we do have perfectionism, we carry that into, into

40:44

the parenting domain, that could also, you

40:46

know, they might learn those anxious behaviors

40:48

or the aversion to failure. So humanized

40:50

failure, humanized mistakes. If you've had a

40:52

bad day, let them know, talk around

40:54

the dinner table, laugh about it, make

40:56

a joke about it, normalize these experiences.

40:58

So, so important. Young people see that.

41:01

And, and that is also

41:03

a good way to stop perfectionism creeping.

41:06

It's a big point because

41:08

children model everything.

41:11

They will model your behaviors. They

41:13

will model how you deal with conflict.

41:16

They will model how

41:19

you interact with other

41:21

people. A lot of

41:23

it, it's not even on a conscious level.

41:25

They're just absorbing and

41:27

it's all imprinting on

41:29

them. So those

41:32

conversations about those behaviors

41:34

are going to be incredibly important. Specifically,

41:37

even being able to laugh at

41:40

those behaviors at the dinner table

41:42

so that those, those children know

41:44

that it's okay to

41:46

laugh at these behaviors because

41:48

perfectionism isn't the best way

41:51

to go and that they are going

41:53

to come up short and that that's okay.

41:57

I think it's also about, I mean,

42:00

The thing is a failure so interesting. We have

42:02

aversion to it in in

42:05

modern society because of the consequences of slipping up

42:07

or making mistakes especially in the age of social

42:09

media can be blown up All over the place

42:11

like I understand the fear But

42:14

it's kind of crazy because but

42:16

failure is just regression to the mean

42:18

like we're gonna fail way more than

42:20

we succeed It's

42:22

like he's 49 of the

42:24

50 people that take up Wimbledon are gonna

42:26

lose a game It's the same

42:29

at a tour the France, you know We've

42:31

had 249 and 250 are not going to

42:33

win the general classification like most people will

42:35

at some stage for sure And

42:38

so that's why it's so important to praise reward

42:40

the times We do succeed because there's a really

42:42

really crucial parts of learning praise for a child

42:44

But also at the same time not over

42:47

catastrophize in those moments of failure because they

42:49

are not objective catastrophes They're just about having a

42:51

bad day. And I think that that

42:53

messaging is so Important

42:56

and and that you know young people

42:58

will listen they will learn and Hopefully

43:01

that will kind of mitigate that fear

43:03

of failure that a lot of young

43:05

people experience in these days Well, we've

43:07

certainly talked a lot about social media

43:09

on the show the impact that it

43:11

has the comparison driven highlight reels that

43:13

Create this funhouse mirror Around

43:15

us, you know on every platform and

43:17

it just seems like in order now to

43:19

even get visibility You have to have larger

43:21

and larger feats of success and

43:24

another part of that social media experience again

43:26

Is there is a scoreboard? So

43:28

it's quantified. It's measurable. How many likes

43:30

am I getting? How many friends and

43:33

followers am I adding? So there's that

43:35

added degree of comparison beyond just the

43:37

imagery and the videos that we're seeing

43:39

and consuming But then also the way

43:41

social media ranks force ranks us with

43:43

leaderboards and scoring the internet doesn't forget

43:45

either Your friends might forget that you

43:47

fell down a few stairs and laughed

43:49

it off when you guys went out

43:52

for drinks But that clip of that

43:54

is now living on Recognizing

43:57

all the downsides of perfectionism

44:00

What do you recommend we do in

44:02

our approach to technology and engaging in

44:05

the digital world which seems to be

44:07

so likely to cause a

44:09

lot of this perfectionism, frustration for your

44:11

failure comparison? Well, you know, it's

44:13

curious you bring that up because I remember,

44:16

I'm old enough to remember the

44:18

very start of social media. Facebook

44:20

was a college campus social

44:23

networking tool. And I was one

44:25

of the first users to take it up at the very

44:27

beginning. And it's funny you

44:29

mentioned like, you know, goofing up and

44:31

all that sort of stuff because that was what it

44:33

was for. Like, I just remember we would have nights

44:36

out as college students, of course you do things college

44:38

students do. People would

44:40

take photos and the next morning you'd log on with

44:42

trepidation of what you've been tagged in. Because

44:45

that was the whole point of it.

44:48

It was about cementing offline relationships, like

44:51

documenting offline scrapes

44:54

and capers that you would have with your friends,

44:56

right? And so it's

44:58

interesting to bring that up because today it's

45:00

almost the reverse, right? We log on with

45:02

trepidation of what we haven't been tagged in.

45:05

Like, as if we're like, we don't matter or

45:07

we're not recognised that people aren't giving us fire

45:09

emojis or mentions or shares and the rest of

45:11

it. It's a completely different tool

45:13

to what it used to be. But I think

45:15

there's something, the answer lies in that

45:18

difference because I think if we can reconnect to

45:20

what it was originally devised

45:22

for, right, to cement offline

45:24

relationships, bring people to give around common interests,

45:28

grow communities, then it's

45:30

an incredibly powerful tool,

45:32

not just in the workplace, not just

45:34

in our social world, in our family, friends, relationships

45:36

and all the rest of it. It has so

45:38

much power to do such tremendous good, but

45:41

it isn't used for that. It's an advertising

45:43

device, right? And it's used to create an

45:45

aura discontent into which captures our attention and

45:47

spending because that's where the revenues are. Nothing

45:50

wrong with that, by the way. That's just, those

45:52

companies doing what they should be doing in this

45:54

economy. But I think it's important for the user

45:56

to recognise that and to try to

45:59

get, take it to what it used to be. And

46:01

I do see signs of that, by the way, in young

46:03

people's interaction social media, they're posting less, interestingly,

46:05

and they're also using the messaging feature

46:08

more right to communicate with each other.

46:10

I think there are some signs that

46:12

we're turning in the right direction with

46:14

that. So it's not about throwing

46:16

the baby off the bar for it's not about

46:18

saying let's just get rid of the platforms, let's

46:20

ban them whatever. I actually think there's tremendous power,

46:22

but it's about using them for the right reasons.

46:24

And that goes for social media, just as it

46:26

does for AI and all the other technologies coming

46:28

down the road. Well, I can

46:30

certainly remember back then we weren't

46:33

thinking that our future employers were

46:35

going to do a social media

46:37

audit of

46:40

who we are, even before

46:42

we get in the room or our

46:44

interviewer ask us some questions about

46:47

our social media. And

46:49

not to mention default settings were private to

46:51

people you knew, right? So anything that was

46:54

shared was not posted publicly, whereas

46:56

now in order for them to

46:58

capture our attention, everything is

47:01

set to public to gain as

47:03

much time on these apps as

47:05

humanly possible. And I know for

47:07

myself, I've posted less. And

47:09

in turn, I've logged on less.

47:12

And I focus more on the

47:14

in person connection versus substituting it

47:16

with the digital, I think it's

47:18

a much bigger ask to post

47:20

more of my flops and failures

47:23

on social recognizing some of the

47:25

comments, etc. We see and feel

47:28

from from just being a public

47:30

figure online, it is very interesting

47:32

to see generationally how they're now

47:34

approaching Gen Z Gen Alpha is

47:37

approaching these online experiences whereas we

47:39

were first to be introduced

47:41

to it excited to post everything.

47:43

Now we're seeing this reversion back

47:45

to more privacy concern about what

47:47

is going to live online forever.

47:49

Yeah, I think we were catnip were me right

47:54

for this kind of unquote

47:56

exploitation is not as aggressive as that. But

48:00

I think you're right, we were

48:02

captured in it, we were excited and we wanted to

48:04

post all of ourselves and all of our lives. And

48:06

I think Gen Z are coming through and going, I'm

48:08

not sure actually. Quite

48:12

the right approach. And they're taking a

48:15

slightly, I would say, healthier approach to it, which is

48:17

great. I think that's how these things will change from

48:19

the ground up. So it's nice to see them. Well,

48:22

think about it. They have to deal

48:25

with that in school. I

48:27

didn't have to go to junior high

48:29

dreading what social media was going to

48:31

say about me and to follow me

48:34

around from school to home

48:36

into my digital life, where

48:38

now they have to

48:40

carry that around them as much

48:42

as their backpack. Right. It's never

48:45

going away and they're constantly connected.

48:47

They learn much earlier the importance

48:50

of that, where, you know,

48:52

that wasn't in our lives at that

48:54

time. Certainly not mine as a Gen

48:56

Xer. Yeah, I 100% agree. I

48:59

hadn't thought about it that way, but

49:01

you're absolutely right. Yeah, there is more

49:03

awareness just because they're the first generation,

49:05

as opposed to growing up just

49:07

immersed in it. So of course, they're going to be

49:10

more educated than we were coming through. Exactly.

49:16

Looking at the title of the book, The

49:18

Perfection Trap, are there signs and signals for

49:20

us to recognize that we're falling into this trap?

49:22

You know, we talked a lot about how it

49:24

can help us. We've also talked a lot about

49:26

how it can hurt us. So how do we

49:28

recognize that it's actually a trap and what can

49:30

we start to do after that to get our

49:32

way out of this trap? Perfection is

49:35

a really harshly self critical when they've messed

49:37

up and made mistakes. That's because it's revealed

49:39

to the world what they deep

49:41

down are trying to hide, which is an

49:43

exhaustible fallible human being underneath the

49:45

surface. But there's also an

49:48

important second piece to this. The perfection is when

49:50

they have succeeded, as was kind of alluded

49:52

to earlier, they can't enjoy that

49:54

success because the better they do, the better expected

49:56

to do. So there's a very fleeting. satisfaction

50:02

from success that they feel because it's

50:04

the next thing and the next thing

50:06

and if you feel caught in that

50:08

bind which is essentially the perfection trap

50:10

right between trying

50:13

to avoid failure so that people don't see

50:15

your shameful imperfect interior

50:17

is but the same time

50:19

find it really difficult to

50:21

enjoy any success then

50:24

that's perfectionism right that's the trap that we're

50:26

locked inside it's an unwinnable game because no

50:28

matter what happens you're always going

50:30

to feel discontented and as I

50:32

mentioned I keep mentioning

50:35

but it is so important first of all I

50:37

have to recognize it goes back to what Janu

50:39

was alluding to at the beginning you know this

50:41

is a culturally acceptable trait this is something that

50:43

I think we celebrate we have to

50:45

turn our back on that myth it isn't

50:47

something that pushes us forward with the data

50:49

is very clear it's not linked to success

50:53

and at the same time it carries all of

50:55

these difficult mental health complaints that

50:57

are associated with being bound

50:59

in this trap this unwinnable game and

51:01

once we've done that we can start

51:03

to think about living a little bit

51:05

differently about chasing abundance in our lives

51:07

about chasing enoughness I'd call it yeah

51:10

my subtitle of my book was very

51:13

much inspired by a psychologist Carl Rogers

51:15

his quote he said I

51:17

am good enough if only I would be

51:20

allowed to be so openly that's

51:22

the challenge it's about opening ourselves up to

51:24

the world imperfections and

51:26

all being brave enough and

51:28

vulnerable enough to show up

51:31

and make mistakes and do

51:33

things badly just to suck

51:35

at stuff essentially and go

51:37

through the discomfort and the anxiety and the worry

51:39

that that's going to engender because it's going to

51:41

engender loads of it and while we're feeling those

51:43

things to be kind to ourselves vulnerability

51:45

and self compassion is so important and

51:47

turn the back of my face so

51:50

many mistakes it's so important to be

51:52

kind and important to be kind to

51:54

other people and they've made mistakes and

51:56

this isn't going to be a linear process you know showing

51:58

up being vulnerable. Make

52:01

mistakes being self compassionate learning developing

52:03

growing same rinsed repeat gonna encounter lots of

52:05

setbacks gonna put the mask section back on

52:07

and then we're gonna feel bad about cells

52:09

for not trying hard as you

52:11

need to break free from this and all the one we

52:14

have to. We have to just know that the

52:16

journey is the most important thing we live in a society is

52:18

probably gonna make us. Put

52:20

on the mask of perfection way more than we'd

52:22

like to but that's okay. The

52:25

point is that we're addressing it that we're

52:27

recognizing this problem. We're trying to live live

52:29

differently and over time you become more comfortable.

52:31

You feeling yourself a sense of

52:33

abundance and self completeness and good

52:36

enough and you experience the

52:38

joy that comes with that in those

52:40

moments and this isn't about living in

52:42

a complete state of ecstasy, but it's

52:44

about encountering more of that joy on

52:46

never increasing basis. That's the that's the

52:49

purpose of trying to turn back on

52:51

perfectionism and become more self aware

52:54

and self accepting. So

52:56

those are the things I would recommend and

53:00

if you can apply them in your eyes, then you

53:02

select taken a search on perfection. Yeah,

53:05

I think going along with that, obviously, it's

53:07

easy to celebrate our successes to look at

53:09

those victories and give ourselves the pat on

53:11

the back. I think it's also important to

53:13

give ourselves the pat on the back for

53:16

all the failures and setbacks. We've been through

53:19

and sometimes just self reflection. You know,

53:21

I failed tests. I didn't

53:23

get good grades in certain subjects and I'm

53:25

still here and I'm still going at it

53:27

with that growth mindset. I think oftentimes if

53:30

we just reflect on our wins again, it

53:32

creates that trap that we're talking about where

53:34

then we try to avoid

53:36

failure at all turns and sometimes that

53:38

avoiding failure can actually lead to procrastination.

53:40

And I know that's one of the

53:42

reasons that some of our clients join

53:45

our coaching programs and work with us

53:47

is because that state of procrastination has

53:49

had them so stuck and

53:51

so far away from the growth mindset that they

53:53

aspire to that they can't

53:55

get themselves out of it. Learning

53:57

growing that's difficult. It's messy. those

54:00

mistakes are going to happen.

54:02

It's not comfortable to do

54:05

that around friends, because

54:07

their friends have a certain picture of them

54:10

that they don't want to shatter, or at

54:12

least those expectations that they have put on themselves

54:14

that they think from their friends. For

54:18

our clients, once they're in an

54:20

accountability group where they're

54:23

learning outside of that comfort

54:25

zone with lots of others,

54:27

they're happy to share

54:29

the mistakes they're making and the

54:31

progress that they're making, because they're

54:33

surrounded by people who are outside

54:36

of their comfort zone. In

54:39

any group, we're going to have

54:41

a certain small percentage of doers who are

54:43

going to try to advance themselves or

54:46

engage in things that they are

54:48

passionate about. There's going to be

54:50

maybe 10 percent more of that

54:52

group who see those people taking

54:54

action, who are going to engage

54:56

with those people because they're

54:59

interested in that. They don't know how to

55:01

get started. Somebody is. They're going to help

55:03

out. But the rest of that

55:05

group, the 90 percent of that group,

55:08

is sitting in the stands afraid

55:11

to participate, afraid to get

55:13

anything started for whatever their

55:16

fear that they have to deal with.

55:18

But now, in the accountability group, everyone

55:20

is in the arena. Everyone

55:23

is participating. Everyone is making

55:25

those mistakes. In fact, they

55:27

feel guilty not participating and

55:30

not making those mistakes. They

55:32

are encouraged then to put

55:34

their best foot forward into the abyss to

55:37

grow. I know in reading the book,

55:39

I think maybe even for some members

55:41

of our audience, they don't recognize the

55:43

link between procrastination and perfectionism. So if

55:45

you can unpack that a little bit,

55:48

I think that'd be super helpful for

55:50

those who are falling into the procrastination

55:52

trap. Yeah, and that's

55:54

so interesting because you're absolutely

55:56

right. Perfection is fear failure to such an

55:58

extent that there are some. sabotage their chances

56:01

of success. The primary motive is to

56:03

avoid the failure. And success

56:05

is secondary, it's much more important to

56:07

save face. And it's

56:09

really interesting you say that about even with

56:11

family, but we have this idea in our

56:13

mind's eye of what people expect us to

56:16

look like or appear like a

56:18

performer, and we don't want that

56:20

image to be shattered. And

56:23

that's true, we don't. But it's in

56:25

those moments where that image is shattered that

56:27

we realize something very important. And

56:30

that's this, that

56:32

image is nothing more than a prop for

56:34

our self esteem and a fragile prop of

56:37

that. When that image is shattered, for whatever reason,

56:39

whether we made a mistake, we screwed up, whether

56:41

it just didn't pan out the way we planned,

56:44

because sometimes it's out of our control too, by

56:46

the way, if things don't go

56:49

well. We realize something remarkably important about

56:51

ourselves. And if we can in that

56:53

moment reflect and actually let those

56:55

ceilings in, that's when we

56:58

can start to become emboldened to

57:00

make those mistakes again, right to

57:03

put ourselves in the, I suppose,

57:07

uncomfortable position of maybe failing,

57:11

or maybe making a mistake on an ever more

57:13

regular basis, because you realize that that image is

57:15

nothing more than a fragile

57:17

prop. So I think I think that's so important. And

57:19

like you say, emboldening in people

57:21

to do that is so important. And again,

57:23

it goes back to this primary mode for

57:26

the perfectionist to avoid failure. And

57:28

we see this time and time in the lab. And

57:30

we love to we love we love to create

57:32

situations of failure, one, because failure is normal, and

57:34

that happens a lot in everyday life, but two,

57:36

because something remarkable happens when you put perfectionist in

57:38

situations and challenge of failure, which is why it's

57:41

interesting to look at it in the lab. So we

57:43

give people cognitive tasks,

57:45

puzzles, we might give them

57:47

athletic tasks like race against each other on

57:50

a cycling activity, for example. And what we'll

57:52

do is no matter how well they perform

57:54

on that task, we'll tell them that they

57:56

failed, right to meet a goal or they

57:58

were the last competitors, right? It's

58:01

a bit noi, but it does

58:04

elicit a response and the response

58:06

is what tells us about the

58:08

perfectionistic mindset and their emotional and

58:10

behavioral responses to that difficulty. And

58:13

two things happen that I think

58:15

are really remarkable. The

58:17

perfectionist people, people that score high in perfectionism,

58:19

when they encounter that failure, they shame spikes

58:21

way more than the shame spikes from people

58:23

who are non-perfectionistic. And shame is a self-conscious

58:25

emotion that basically tells us we're rubbish, that

58:29

we failed at something that's an indictment on us. They

58:31

feel a lot of guilt, so they worry about how it's

58:33

looked over people and whether they're over people that still

58:36

find them a worthwhile human

58:38

being. But also they have their

58:41

pride in themselves, declines, plummets. But

58:44

it's not just emotional responses or interest,

58:46

it's also behavioral. Because if you suddenly

58:48

say to them, but don't

58:50

worry about all of that failure, it's okay, you

58:52

can redeem yourself because you can have another go.

58:56

On the second attempt after the first

58:58

failure, perfectionist people will remove themselves completely.

59:01

They'll just take themselves out of the activity,

59:03

their effort will plummet, especially on athletic types,

59:05

when we do this in the lab time

59:07

and time again. They just don't try on

59:09

the second attempt because the intensity of those

59:11

emotions were so fierce, they don't want to

59:13

feel that again. They don't want to give

59:15

all themselves and still feel that feel even

59:17

shit about themselves. So they just give

59:19

up, they just withdraw. And

59:22

that's not just about complete withdrawal, it's also

59:24

that's the same mechanism that's occurring

59:27

when it comes to procrastination too. It's

59:29

an anxiety management technique that they know

59:31

this is challenging, they know this is super,

59:33

super hard. And the anxiety in that

59:35

moment is so tough to deal with head

59:37

on, it would just take ourselves away. Distract,

59:39

do something else for that brief moment to

59:42

take ourselves away from that activity. But of

59:44

course, even though in that moment, we're

59:46

not damaged by those emotions, we are in

59:49

the course of time damaged by them to

59:51

an even greater extent. So obviously,

59:53

it's a non-optimal coping mechanism, but it's the one

59:56

that perfectionist people use a lot because the primary

59:58

motive is to avoid failure. Procrastination

1:00:01

is a scourge for

1:00:03

the perfectionist and it's so simple, I recognize what's

1:00:05

going on underneath and it's always that aversion to

1:00:07

failure. So embracing

1:00:10

failure, embracing the idea that

1:00:12

we're going to make mistakes is so important when it

1:00:14

comes to putting through perfection. Recognizing

1:00:16

your own perfectionism, what have you done

1:00:19

personally to bring the good enough mindset

1:00:21

into your life and into practice? First

1:00:26

thing to say here is that I'm

1:00:28

a fairly privileged position because I've climbed

1:00:30

the academic ladder. So in my profession,

1:00:32

I've gone as high as you probably

1:00:34

could go. I'm at a Russell Group

1:00:37

institution as associate profile, probably a beautiful

1:00:39

professor soon. This is equivalent

1:00:41

to the Ivy League for Americanism. I

1:00:43

have the privilege of being able to step off the

1:00:45

gas now and focus on things

1:00:47

that bring me purpose and meaning, which is

1:00:49

what I'm doing. And that is

1:00:52

helping me come through my own perfectionism. It's helping

1:00:54

me realize

1:00:56

and gain a sense of

1:00:58

satisfaction in my accomplishments. I could never do that.

1:01:01

I was unable to singly do that a

1:01:03

few years ago, but just being able to

1:01:05

kind of take a more philosophical outlook on

1:01:07

life and realize that if

1:01:09

you'd said to me at 19, this is where

1:01:11

you'd be, it would

1:01:14

just blind my mind. And I think sometimes

1:01:16

you have to hold on to that. You

1:01:18

have to realize that we can do remarkable

1:01:20

things. We have done remarkable things. And

1:01:22

at what point do you go, okay, I

1:01:25

need to stop putting myself through the wringer for more

1:01:27

and more and realize that in

1:01:29

this moment, what I've done is way

1:01:31

beyond what I thought I was capable

1:01:34

of. And so what's my motivation now?

1:01:36

Where can I gain joy in this

1:01:39

existence? Well it's flipping the meaning

1:01:41

of what I'm doing on its head from this

1:01:43

idea of scarcity that I lack something and I

1:01:45

have to keep going to a mindset of abundance

1:01:47

and plenty. But I realize that I

1:01:49

have these skills, I have these capabilities and

1:01:52

now my focus is on using them for

1:01:54

a bigger purpose. Basically

1:01:57

embracing the vocation of what I'm doing. something

1:02:00

in the world for other people to use and

1:02:02

appreciate and enjoy. And whether people like it, whether

1:02:04

people hate, whether people are indifferent about it, it

1:02:06

doesn't matter. What matters is that you are creating

1:02:08

something for other people to use. And that doesn't

1:02:10

just have to be a book or a TED

1:02:12

Talk or whatever we do as academics in

1:02:15

the workplace. You know, it could be a project, it could

1:02:17

be a tool, it could be a product. You

1:02:20

strongly believe it will bring

1:02:23

joy to people's lives, or in hard people's

1:02:25

lives. That's the motivation. And once

1:02:27

we can make that flip, then

1:02:30

it isn't about any more and more

1:02:32

and more, it's about learning

1:02:34

to feel content in what

1:02:38

we are doing and having less

1:02:40

something in the world for other people to use. That's the

1:02:42

satisfaction, that's the pride, rather

1:02:44

than the recognition from other people, which is what

1:02:46

drives perfection. So for me, in

1:02:48

my own life, that's the kind

1:02:50

of practices that I've tried to employ, tried

1:02:53

to see my job and my life more as a

1:02:55

vacation and throw more

1:02:57

of myself into outside activities, community

1:02:59

and with my family. Those are really important things. But

1:03:02

I go back to the caveat I made at

1:03:04

the start. I'm in a very

1:03:06

privileged position where I can do these things because

1:03:09

I've made it over a certain threshold, which means

1:03:11

it doesn't matter now.

1:03:14

I've got probation,

1:03:17

I'm going to be a full-pro. I've met

1:03:20

my career goals. And so for

1:03:22

those people coming up, I would

1:03:24

say there is still caution in perfectionism. I

1:03:27

would not embrace it to a full extent.

1:03:29

But I would also say that hard work

1:03:31

is driving conscientiousness and growth and really, really

1:03:33

important. And yes, it may be a bit

1:03:36

uncomfortable, but recognize that there

1:03:38

will be a point where you will meet

1:03:40

your goals. And at that stage, it's important

1:03:42

to recognize that more and more and more

1:03:44

growth is the way to discontent and misery

1:03:47

and that at some point to recognize our

1:03:49

achievements and strive for high purpose instead. So

1:03:51

that's the advice. Thank you for

1:03:53

that. It's a beautiful place to end it and

1:03:55

wrap things up. Where can our audience find out

1:03:57

more about the perfection trap and the work that

1:03:59

you've done? you do. So if you

1:04:01

google Thomas Curran the perfection trap you

1:04:03

will be given a

1:04:06

list of links to my website, social media

1:04:09

accounts and also links to buy the book if you so

1:04:11

wish so that's probably the best way to do it and

1:04:13

if you do pick up a copy I'd love to hear

1:04:15

from readers so please do let me know what you think.

1:04:18

Thank you for joining us Thomas. Johnny

1:04:31

we have an exciting bit of feedback from our

1:04:33

X Factor member Nate. Nate writes, I just had

1:04:35

an amazing meeting. I've been an impasse of the

1:04:37

seller on what would be the biggest deal of

1:04:40

my life and we've negotiated for months

1:04:42

through a broker. He asked to meet me

1:04:44

in person without the broker. Now I

1:04:46

spent the last two hours barely talking

1:04:48

business. I connected with him on where

1:04:51

we grew up, work ethic, raising kids,

1:04:53

being a landlord, financing and everything except

1:04:55

the package of properties. Then

1:04:57

he asked what terms we were looking for

1:05:00

and I was honest with him. Originally I

1:05:02

thought we would have had to put 2 million down on

1:05:04

this project. Now I have him going

1:05:06

back to his partners with a deal where

1:05:08

they cover our down payment and we buy

1:05:10

2 million plus worth of property with no

1:05:12

money down. Don't know if we'll

1:05:14

get the deal but I think this guy wants to

1:05:16

adopt me at this point. I

1:05:18

used everything I've learned in the X Factor

1:05:21

accelerator on this guy to build rapport. I

1:05:23

know he wants to work with me now. The

1:05:25

rest is just making math work on both sides.

1:05:28

AJ I love waking up every day

1:05:30

and reading all of the posts at

1:05:32

our accountability group. It is stuff like

1:05:34

that that fires me up. Absolutely and

1:05:37

here's the best part about it. So

1:05:39

often we find ourselves in this situation

1:05:41

where a little vulnerability in rapport building

1:05:43

can go such a long way in

1:05:46

creating many opportunities in our life, not

1:05:48

just real estate deals. If

1:05:50

you listen this far my guess is because you want

1:05:52

more out of life and you are ready to make

1:05:55

2024 your best year yet. If that's

1:05:57

the case then join us the Art of Charm team.

1:06:00

and listeners just like you who

1:06:02

are experiencing breakthrough conversations, supercharging their

1:06:04

confidence, and growing an incredible network

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inside our world-famous X Factor Accelerator

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What are you waiting for? Join us

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today at unlockyourxfactor.com. All

1:06:44

right, before we head out, a huge thank

1:06:46

you to our producers Michael Harold and Eric

1:06:48

Montgomery. If you got value out of this

1:06:50

episode, head to your favorite podcast player and

1:06:52

rate and review us. We hope

1:06:54

you have an epic week. Thank

1:07:24

you.