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the latest science so you can start winning today.

1:53

Let's face it, in order to be seen

1:56

and heard, your communication needs to cut through

1:58

the noise. I'm

2:01

AJ, successfully recovered introvert, entrepreneur, and

2:03

self-development junkie. And I'm Johnny Zubak,

2:05

former touring musician, promoter, rock and

2:07

roller, and co-founder here at The

2:09

Articharm. And for the last 15

2:12

years, we've trained thousands of top performers

2:14

and teams from every background. We

2:17

have dedicated our lives to teaching men

2:19

and women all they need to know

2:21

about communication, networking, and relationships. You

2:23

shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extraordinary.

2:28

We'll kick off today's show. Today, we

2:30

have Dr. Judy Ho with us again, one of

2:32

our most popular guests from 2020. We

2:35

break down how attachment styles can hold

2:37

you back in love and your career.

2:39

Dr. Ho is a clinical neuropsychologist and

2:41

a tenured professor and researcher at Pepperdine

2:43

University. She also works as a forensic

2:46

expert and media consultant. Last time, she

2:48

joined us to talk about her book,

2:50

Stop Self-Sabotage. And today,

2:52

she's back to talk about her latest

2:54

book, The New Rules of Attachment, How

2:56

to Heal Your Relationships, Reparent Your Inner

2:58

Child, and Secure Your Life Vision. We

3:01

discuss why you need to understand your

3:03

attachment style to build healthy relationships, how

3:05

your attachment style impacts your work and

3:07

social relationships. Judy also shares a couple

3:09

of exercises to help you break free

3:12

from your inner child wounds, and how

3:14

parents can raise their children to be

3:16

securely attached to achieve success and build

3:18

healthy relationships. Welcome back to the show,

3:20

Judy. Great to have you. Thank you so

3:22

much. I'm excited to talk to you about attachment

3:25

this time. I know. The last time

3:27

you were here, we talked about self-sabotage. And

3:30

I think when it comes to relationships, attachment can be

3:32

one of those ways that we

3:34

actually sabotage relationships with others. Oh,

3:37

absolutely. And I think that it's kind of a hidden thing because

3:40

you don't always think about or talk about

3:42

attachment every single day, but it really takes

3:45

a huge impact on your operating

3:47

system. And I think that's

3:49

a way that you see the world and

3:52

maybe some of the rules of how you interact with others and

3:55

even how you feel about yourself. So there's a

3:57

lot of impact. Well, I know that it's become more

3:59

popular on social media to talk about it. Attachment there's

4:01

memes flying around everywhere. But for those in our audience

4:03

who aren't familiar with attachment theory, what is it? So

4:06

attachment theory is based on these early bonds

4:08

that we have with our caregivers most of

4:10

the times it's our parents, but it could

4:12

be other important adults when you're just coming

4:14

into the world and the reason

4:16

why these attachment bonds are so important is

4:18

because you're just learning about How

4:21

the world works how you can affect change in

4:23

the world Do people come to you when you

4:25

have a need and in those early years? We're

4:27

literally helpless without an adult to take care of

4:29

us And that's why they make such a huge

4:31

impact on how we think about ourselves in

4:33

the future now when it comes to attachment

4:36

I know that a lot of people can

4:38

see it in others, but it's difficult to

4:40

self-assess So what are those four attachment styles

4:42

and then walk us through how we can

4:44

start to understand ourselves versus labeling others Right

4:47

attachment. Yeah, so there's four attachment

4:49

styles one is secure And so that's

4:51

sort of considered to be like the

4:54

optimal attachment type And then there's three

4:56

more insecure styles They each have their sort

4:58

of pros and cons that are associated with with

5:00

each one of them and if you're

5:02

not sure where to start I do have an attachment quiz

5:04

you can see it on my Website

5:06

for free or you can get it from my book But that's

5:09

a good way just to kind of understand yourself a little better

5:11

But the three insecure attachments also start

5:14

with the first one is avoidant attachment

5:16

style So that one is a person

5:18

who maybe in childhood they were parentified

5:20

really early maybe They

5:23

were made just to in general be more

5:25

independent They really couldn't count on their parents

5:27

for various reasons and I want to just

5:29

also preface this by saying parents oftentimes They're trying

5:31

to do their best but still things

5:34

happen And so maybe really busy parents for

5:36

example or parents who didn't really like to

5:38

talk about emotion so much They might produce

5:40

an avoidantly attached child and as an adult

5:43

these avoidantly attached are fiercely independent They just

5:45

want to do everything themselves roll up their

5:47

sleeves when things get tough. They start to

5:49

isolate They don't tell people about their problems

5:52

and they tend to focus a lot of

5:54

their life on their goals and their achievements

5:57

And they put less stock on deeper

5:59

meaningful connections with other people. The

6:01

second kind of insecure attachment style is the

6:03

anxious attachment style. So this is the quintessential

6:05

people pleaser. Maybe when they were young, they

6:08

felt like they had to do that to

6:10

keep their parents close. And so as adults,

6:12

they're generally having those same types of patterns

6:14

in all the different areas of their life.

6:17

They tend oftentimes to need a

6:19

lot more positive reinforcement from their

6:21

environment to feel good about themselves.

6:23

So they might not be able

6:25

to hold on to a higher

6:27

self-esteem unless they're hearing it from

6:29

everybody else that they're okay. And

6:32

when they're away from people that they care about

6:34

for too long, they start to question like, do

6:36

they still care about me? And they'll start to

6:38

do these sort of like pulling behaviors for attention,

6:40

even if they don't realize that that's what it

6:43

is consciously. And then the last

6:45

insecure attachment style is the disorganized. And that

6:47

one, I think is the most misunderstood. When

6:49

I look on online articles, social media, I

6:51

see that people sometimes think that it's a

6:54

combination of the other two styles. Or

6:56

they think that it's the style that is just like you

6:58

throw up your hands, you can't do anything about it because

7:00

it's the most messed up one. Both

7:03

of those things are untrue. People

7:05

who develop disorganized attachment, they

7:08

do tend to generally come from more stressful

7:11

home environments and maybe ones that are

7:13

traumatic. What happens is

7:15

it makes it harder for them to emotionally

7:17

regulate. So oftentimes they feel like

7:19

there's a lot of chaos around them. They tend

7:22

to get more overwhelmed with emotion. They tend to

7:24

be in fight or flight a lot. So that's

7:26

how they approach a lot of different things in

7:28

their life from relationships to career goals to even

7:31

thoughts about themselves. And so it's

7:33

just harder for them to kind of get

7:35

to that base level of feeling safe and

7:37

having stability. So that I think would describe

7:39

the disorganized attachment well. And then finally, this

7:41

is a secure attachment type doesn't

7:44

mean that they don't have problems. But it

7:46

does mean that when they do come across

7:48

challenges, they feel more equipped that they can

7:50

handle it either on their own or with

7:52

someone's help. They generally believe that

7:54

good things can happen to them and should happen

7:56

to them and their self concept

7:58

and their self esteem. tends to

8:00

be pretty rooted in what they are

8:03

doing internally. So it's not as predicated

8:05

on whether or not they're achieving every

8:07

day or what other people are saying

8:09

about them. Right. Now,

8:11

looking at parents, for most of

8:14

us, there's two people involved. So

8:16

do parenting styles, combination of parenting

8:18

styles produce different attachments? Is the

8:20

household primarily in one style or

8:23

another? Yeah, it's a

8:25

good question. So I definitely think

8:27

that whoever is your primary caregiver,

8:29

that's oftentimes who your attachment

8:31

style is going to be developed around. But obviously,

8:34

if you have two parents who are pretty much

8:36

equal in your life, even as a child, then

8:38

if they have slightly different

8:40

styles, you might actually develop a combination

8:42

attachment style. And then as an adult,

8:44

it can play out in different areas

8:46

of your life. So I've had people

8:48

tell me, well, I have really secure

8:51

attachment in my romantic relationships. But when

8:53

it comes to my career, I feel

8:55

like I'm more avoidantly attached. And then

8:57

when it comes to friendships, I'm anxiously

8:59

attached. That's very common to have a

9:01

combination attachment style. And sometimes certain situations

9:03

trigger certain memories. And so it

9:06

can even be something like, well, my mom and

9:08

I, we've had a secure attachment, but my dad

9:10

and I, we didn't, it was more insecure. And

9:12

they find that playing out more when they interact

9:14

with males. So you can see that

9:16

too, where it's like the different domains of their

9:19

life where these attachment styles can come up. Okay.

9:22

And that is a huge debate, nature nurture.

9:24

So what role do genetics play in attachment?

9:26

Huge. I mean, yeah, I mean, psychology is

9:29

one of those fields where it would be nice if

9:31

it was like a black and white answer, right? But

9:33

it's always a combination. And so

9:35

there's definitely the parents, a parenting approach.

9:38

And then there's the temperament, the personality

9:40

of the infant and the toddler, right?

9:42

And so some people, they come into

9:45

the world and they just need a

9:47

little bit more positive reinforcement than the

9:49

average person. So if their

9:51

parent is more dismissive of that, it's

9:54

going to create in them a much

9:56

more anxious attachment style as they grow up.

9:59

Or you may have a child. who was kind of independent

10:01

to begin with and they don't

10:03

quite need as much. So even if

10:05

the parent isn't there all the time

10:07

and isn't giving them that extra reinforcement

10:09

and nurturance, they might still grow up

10:12

to be securely attached. Okay. This

10:14

similar to that first example I gave. Yeah. Now

10:17

it's interesting that you point out romantic,

10:19

social relationships and then career relationships because

10:21

I think for a lot of us,

10:23

we might first hear about attachment styles

10:25

when it comes to our romantic relationships

10:27

because those tend to be the relationships

10:29

that we spend the most time in,

10:31

we get really close to the other

10:33

person and oftentimes we can actually see

10:35

their response to our behavior and it

10:37

leads to arguments and fights and conflict.

10:39

Yeah. When it comes to our social

10:41

relationships and our work relationships, those tend

10:43

to be a little bit more difficult

10:45

because we don't often get that direct

10:47

feedback like we do from a romantic

10:49

partner. I know for myself, I'm avoidant

10:51

in a lot of ways, especially in

10:53

romantic relationships and I made that discovery

10:55

through a partner breaking up with me

10:57

and explaining to me all the behaviors

11:00

that drove her up a wall. So

11:02

we look at these romantic bonds. Are

11:04

there patterns of attachment style that work

11:06

well together that tend to attract each

11:08

other? Yeah, such a great

11:10

example and thanks for sharing. I think

11:12

I have avoided attachment styles as well

11:14

and it's really through, like you said,

11:17

talking with my partners, trying to work

11:19

on myself and I'm like, okay, how

11:21

do I do this in a way

11:23

that will feel better for everybody and

11:25

even myself involved? But yeah, definitely. I'm

11:27

so used to being super independent that

11:30

in my romantic relationships in the past,

11:33

for sure, where it's just like, okay,

11:35

I'm just going to rather invest in

11:37

something else rather than this emotional conversation,

11:39

right? And so I

11:41

think that interestingly, avoidantly attached

11:43

and anxiously attached tend to

11:45

attract each other. It

11:47

kind of makes sense. There's like a little

11:50

chasing and then like... Yeah, pleasing. The people

11:52

pleasing and then you're in it and then

11:54

the person kind of goes away again and

11:56

then the anxiously attached chases the avoidantly attached

11:59

person. And sometimes the anxiously attached

12:01

person will start to feel overwhelmed and say, you

12:03

know what, well, maybe this isn't working. They start

12:05

to disconnect. And then that's when the avoidantly attached

12:07

person will like go chase them and be like,

12:09

wait, are we okay here? Like, let's make sure

12:11

we're okay. And so you get into these patterns.

12:13

And I think that oftentimes people are trying to

12:15

replicate in some way, like making

12:18

amends with something that had happened to them in

12:20

the past at some point. And that's why they

12:22

start to attract each other. I

12:24

think that that's probably the most

12:26

common, but I think the disorganized

12:28

attachment oftentimes will end up also

12:30

attracting the avoidantly attached or the

12:32

anxiously attached, just depending on where

12:35

they are in their own self

12:37

development and how they're managing that.

12:39

I think that in terms of what works well,

12:41

I think any attachment style could really work well

12:44

with any other, as long as you're willing to

12:46

do the work and just have a little bit

12:48

of insight, you know, you may always have the

12:50

shadows of your primary attachment style coming back in.

12:52

But as long as you have the self awareness,

12:54

you know, how to switch the

12:57

tactics, right? You know how to say, well,

13:00

I have this urge now to kind of

13:02

disconnect, or I have this urge now to

13:04

people, please. And what can I do instead?

13:07

So I think that every style can work

13:09

well with every other style. It's just about

13:11

having that acknowledgement and wanting to

13:13

change for the betterment of yourself and

13:15

your partner. So looking at

13:17

those family relationships and their importance on

13:20

child rearing and our outcomes in terms

13:22

of attachment style, for those in our

13:24

audience who are parents, it sounds like

13:26

we want to raise secure attachment style

13:28

children. What can we do

13:30

to be better parents around raising secure attachment? Yeah,

13:33

so so interesting because I

13:36

had this idea for this book for

13:39

several years, I pitched it, I got

13:41

the book bought by Hachette, and then

13:43

I became pregnant. So it was so

13:46

interesting that just coincidentally, in a way,

13:48

the timing of it was now I'm writing

13:51

this book, while I'm trying to

13:53

raise my infant son. And

13:55

really all of the things that I know

13:57

as an expert, what I've been talking about,

14:00

with parents trying to help my clients, now I'm living

14:02

it, now I'm living it also on top of it.

14:04

And I think parenting is so huge. I think

14:07

that a lot of times people put so much

14:09

stock in their parenting, it makes sense, because you're

14:11

like, I have one chance to do it right.

14:13

But I also think the 80-20 rule applies here,

14:15

where 80% of the time, if

14:18

you're doing things to foster secure

14:20

attachment, your child's probably gonna end up being

14:22

securely attached. 20% of the time you make

14:24

mistakes, you were slightly

14:26

just busy with something else, did

14:29

something differently and wish you didn't do it that way, most

14:32

of the times it's still gonna be okay. I

14:34

think in general, all you really need to

14:36

do as a parent is just be a

14:39

mindful parent. Just be attentive to what your

14:41

child is needing in the moment. Earlier you

14:43

brought up this idea of nature versus nurture.

14:46

You can read all the parenting books in the world, go

14:48

see all the therapists you want, and you just have to

14:50

look at your child. What works for your child might

14:53

not work for another child. What

14:56

works for your first born child might not

14:58

work for your last born child. And so

15:00

it's really just about being observant of what

15:02

your child needs and your child's temperament, and

15:04

then just doing your best to be there

15:06

for them and addressing whatever needs are coming

15:09

up in the moment. You don't even necessarily

15:11

have to have a defined script. It's really

15:13

just about what they need every single day.

15:15

One day they might be totally fine being

15:17

more independent, playing on their own. The next

15:19

day they might want more hugs and just

15:21

wanna be close to you. And so I've

15:23

talked to a lot of different parents, especially

15:25

being a new parent myself, and it's so interesting that

15:28

a lot of them have had these same revelations of,

15:30

oh, I had this whole day planned where we're gonna

15:33

do all these activities, and really all they wanted me

15:35

to do today was just sit with them on the

15:38

couch and just be near me physically. And

15:40

then that's what we ended up

15:42

doing instead of all these other activities that we

15:44

had planned. And so I think that that is

15:46

so much of what we need as

15:48

human beings to feel secure and safe in those

15:50

early years is just a close

15:53

proximity emotionally and physically to

15:55

someone who cares. So

15:58

that's kind of it. Like I'm

16:01

boiling down parenting to maybe like super simple terms,

16:03

but I think that that's really the key versus

16:05

over Complicating it and trying to turn into

16:07

something that in a lot of ways forces

16:10

children to be outside of their comfort zone

16:12

to be Outside of who they were meant

16:14

to be exactly and I know that sometimes

16:16

it comes from a good place You know you oftentimes

16:18

hear about parents saying well I really wanted my child

16:20

to have certain options that I didn't get to have

16:22

of course That's great But you also have to watch

16:24

your child and you also have to say is this

16:26

Approval for my child and so obviously at the extreme

16:29

you have these parents who are saying well I never

16:31

got to be a figure skaters like my child Did

16:33

a few bit you know and then I drive them

16:35

really hard to do it and then it makes it

16:37

feel Really difficult if that child is

16:39

just not into it or they feel like well

16:41

everything about me is that it's all based on

16:43

my achievements and what I do for you like

16:45

that will produce a certain type of child that

16:48

might be insecurely attached and so I do Think

16:50

that sometimes we're over complicating it and

16:53

it is just about watching your child and

16:55

giving your child what they need in That

16:57

moment and that's gonna make them feel safe

16:59

and that's gonna make them feel secure.

17:01

So looking at attachment styles basically

17:04

how we were raised in that Parental

17:06

person both presence in our life that primary

17:08

caregiver It's kind of the set point of

17:10

what we see safety and comfort and love

17:13

as and then we seek that out in

17:15

other Relationships whether that be

17:17

personal whether they be romantic when

17:19

you recognize that maybe you have one of

17:22

these insecure attachment styles What is the work

17:24

because you said do the work to actually

17:26

become secure? What is that work that we

17:28

should be doing once you've recognized these patterns

17:30

in ourselves? Yeah So once

17:32

you recognize the patterns and I think you know you

17:34

said something like template, you know it is kind of

17:37

a template that you go about life and to

17:40

me it's sort of like an operating system

17:42

that's always working underneath and Although

17:44

most of the times we're talking about romantic relationships

17:47

Like you said it does affect all the different

17:49

areas of your life It affects how you go

17:51

about goals. It affects how you deal with friendships

17:53

and family members. It affects how you Think

17:57

about yourself just in general your whole

17:59

self-concept And so once you

18:01

recognize insecure attachment, then it's really about

18:03

looking at the operating system and essentially

18:06

changing what's not working, developing a revised

18:08

operating system that's actually going to work

18:10

for your life right now as an

18:12

adult. And so what I have found

18:15

is that with each insecure attachment type,

18:17

they have certain different things that are

18:19

running as their program. So for example,

18:22

the anxious attached, a lot

18:24

of what's running in their program is

18:26

I have to overanalyze everything. That's part

18:28

of the anxious temperament. Or I

18:31

have to save others. I have to take

18:33

care of others because otherwise they won't

18:36

take care of me or they won't like me.

18:38

And so once you realize what these statements are,

18:40

there's different exercises that you can do to essentially

18:43

reparent yourself. And that is what I think is

18:45

really important, is that sometimes people will say, well,

18:47

OK, I

18:49

get all that and I hear what you're saying

18:51

and I've talked to my parents about it and

18:53

they're just like, what are you talking about? They're

18:56

clearly not interested in the work and

18:58

maybe they don't even feel like they want to

19:00

take responsibility for what they've contributed to my attachment

19:02

style. But that's OK. The whole idea is that

19:04

as an adult now, you have more efficacy and

19:06

you have more control and it's in your hands

19:09

now. So you can be upset with your parents,

19:11

but this is not about blaming them because it's

19:13

not going to help you move forward. So what

19:15

can you do? You have to learn to reparent

19:17

yourself. You have to reprogram what's happened.

19:20

And so there's different exercises that we

19:22

can do from inner child work to

19:24

mirror work to shadow work to empty

19:26

chair exercises. But these are things where

19:29

you get to confront those areas

19:31

that have developed from

19:34

an earlier time, these scripts that probably

19:36

no longer work in your life, but

19:38

you're still running those old programs. It's

19:40

like that old computer that you're still

19:42

using, but it's just not working now.

19:44

And so it is up to you to be able

19:46

to do those exercises and move forward and develop these

19:48

new scripts for yourself. So it

19:50

is important to recognize, as you said earlier, that

19:53

our parents are doing the best they can with

19:55

what they're given. And of course, a lot of

19:57

this information wasn't even available to them around raising.

20:00

kids, podcasts, videos, inner child work. So

20:02

recognizing that we have to take responsibility

20:04

and we want to have healthy, happy

20:06

relationships in our lives, I found

20:09

in our work that we do as clients

20:11

is we tend to get a lot of

20:13

avoidant attachment clients as well, being very goal

20:15

driven and lone wolves as we call them.

20:18

Just happy to push relationships to the side,

20:20

focus on the task at hand. So

20:22

walk us through some of these exercises for those

20:25

in the audience who are avoidant to

20:27

actually start to work through breaking that pattern

20:29

and getting to a more secure attachment style

20:31

in their life. Yeah, this is

20:33

a great question. And I think again, the

20:35

avoidantly attached is interesting because I also talk

20:37

about the pros of each insecure attachment stuff

20:39

because there's so much about how bad they

20:41

are that it's important

20:43

to also recognize their strengths. And so interestingly,

20:45

like you said, avoidantly attached individuals, they are

20:48

the proverbial lone wolves and they are admired

20:50

for it. They're admired for their achievements. So

20:52

it's kind of egosyntonic to be avoidantly attached.

20:54

And then obviously when they're not feeling good

20:56

about themselves, they just set up another goal

20:59

and they do it and people are like,

21:01

whoa, you're so amazing. You have all this stuff

21:03

going on in your personal life and you're still doing it. And

21:06

so it makes you kind of almost drive

21:08

even more towards that. But eventually you burn

21:10

out more. Your self concept

21:12

is obviously not in a great place

21:14

in that it's always predicated on what

21:16

you're achieving. And then we

21:19

all need connection. Even the proverbial lone

21:21

wolves, even if you say you're a

21:23

recluse because we're social animals. I mean,

21:25

that's a lot of what your work

21:27

is on trying to help people recognize

21:29

that and harness that. And so a

21:31

lot of the exercises for our

21:33

proverbial lone wolves really have to do

21:35

with developing healthy interdependence. And so I

21:37

set up these behavioral experiments for them.

21:40

I know that you like them too

21:42

in your program, where you

21:44

start to little by little,

21:46

starting with lower stake things, like

21:49

ask people to start

21:51

helping in different areas of your life. But

21:53

you start with lower stakes. So that's too

21:56

scary to ask, like the big ass of

21:58

most intimate relationships. But you start with... But

22:00

the important thing is that you actually write

22:02

your hypothesis beforehand, right? So it's like what

22:04

do you think is actually gonna happen versus

22:07

what actually happens and oftentimes people who have

22:09

Avoid an attachment they feel like well, they're

22:11

not gonna be able to do it or

22:13

like well They'll do it, but they'll disappoint

22:15

me or like they'll do it But then

22:18

now they're gonna think that I suck and

22:20

I'm weak and weak Right and so it's

22:22

important to write those hypotheses ahead of time

22:24

because our minds are so powerful that later

22:26

on after something happens You're gonna create the

22:28

story Current ideas.

22:30

Yeah, so you have to write it down ahead

22:32

of time Then you do the experiment and then

22:34

you're like, okay Well what actually happened and then

22:36

you look at the discrepancies and you have to

22:39

start in a logical way actually make sense of

22:41

okay What's the new idea then to bring into

22:43

my existing script? So I guess I asked this

22:45

person for this I thought that they were totally

22:47

gonna disappoint me and you know what they did

22:49

pretty good job Like could I have

22:51

done a better job maybe but they did

22:53

a pretty good job But it's a good

22:55

enough job that I feel more comfortable doing

22:57

it in the future You know with people

22:59

that you have more intimate relationships with you

23:01

can even ask them directly like when I

23:03

asked you for this What

23:06

did you think of me? You know people

23:08

you trust your friends close family romantic partners

23:10

And you know most of the times you're

23:12

gonna get that feedback of like either

23:15

nothing or like well Yeah, obviously

23:17

you need a lot of help. You have a lot on

23:19

your plate as opposed to your You're

23:22

bothering me exactly and so I think

23:24

those behavioral experiments are so important for

23:26

the avoidance attached Because avoidantly attached

23:28

people are really pragmatic. They tend to be

23:30

really logical and they don't want

23:33

like so much emotional content And so you got

23:35

to meet the types where they're at if you're

23:37

asking the avoidantly attached to do a ton of

23:39

really deep emotional Work right off the bat. They're

23:42

gonna run away Yeah,

23:46

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29:21

With that, recognizing that

29:24

yes, we have these big goals, but we

29:26

get these goals achieved so much faster with

29:28

just a little bit of support, with just

29:30

a little bit of help from our community.

29:32

And they feel good helping you. I think

29:35

that's one of the things that's challenging with the

29:37

lone wolf mindset is like, well, I can get

29:39

there faster alone. It's like, no, actually, you can

29:41

get there faster with support. And the people want

29:43

to support you. They care about you. They see

29:45

you in such high regard because of all of

29:47

your achievements that they're excited to be a part

29:49

of your journey. Exactly. And

29:51

I think that that's something that is a huge

29:54

takeaway for the avoidantly attached because like you said,

29:56

there's all of these different things, ideas that you've

29:58

put in your head that you're doing. doing

30:00

it better alone. And because 95% of

30:02

the time you're doing it alone, you're

30:04

reinforcing that yourself. But once you actually

30:06

let other people in, you realize, like

30:08

you said, your goals are

30:10

much better achieved with

30:13

people supporting you. And you're

30:15

actually giving them a gift. Oftentimes they want

30:17

to, and they feel

30:19

privileged that you asked. Right, to be a part of it. Yeah,

30:21

and so that's why these feedback conversations after the

30:23

fact are so important. It's like the people that

30:26

you do trust that are kind of in your

30:28

inner circle, how did you feel

30:30

doing this? Like you need that

30:32

feedback. You need to remember that for the next

30:34

time. You need to write a down so you

30:36

don't forget or create a different narrative that fits

30:39

your existing ideas. Absolutely. I

30:41

know for myself, growing up, I was

30:43

in a household where my emotions are

30:45

often dismissed. So expressing

30:47

emotions, especially quote unquote negative

30:49

emotions, was just not seen

30:52

as comfortable for me even after growing

30:54

up and becoming an adult. And in

30:56

those relationships, your partner can sense that

30:58

you're feeling difficult emotions. You're not hiding

31:00

it. You're not getting anything under

31:03

your partner's nose, but with that, they

31:05

feel disconnected from you because you're

31:07

not showing your true self. Exactly,

31:09

and that really resonates with me as

31:12

well because growing up in a more

31:14

traditional Chinese household, stoicism

31:16

is very valued. And

31:18

so when you have negative emotions, they are dismissed.

31:21

It's like, well, don't complain about it. Don't talk

31:23

about it, right? And that was my

31:25

parents' way of cheering me up though. Whenever

31:28

I had a hard time, when I had a difficult

31:30

time. And so again, I recognized that my parents were

31:32

only using the scripts that they grew up with and

31:34

they were actually trying to help, but it definitely made

31:36

me feel like, oh, we just don't talk about negative

31:38

emotions. And I remember

31:41

that earlier in my life, I was

31:43

pretty uncomfortable when people became

31:46

more emotional around me. And when they were expressing

31:48

negative emotion, I was like, oh my God, it

31:51

would make me super uncomfortable. I would either try to

31:53

make an excuse to get out of there or

31:55

it would just make me even more stoic,

31:58

which would drive the person crazy. because

32:00

they're like, are you even hearing me? I'm

32:02

just, yes. And I'm like, everything's

32:04

fine. They're like, no, it's not. And

32:07

so it actually fires them up more, which

32:09

obviously achieves the opposite effect. And

32:11

so it does take some time, like you

32:13

said, to try to show up authentically, to

32:16

recognize that negative emotions serve a function. So

32:18

again, speaking to the more logical and pragmatic

32:20

mind of my brain, I had

32:22

to tell myself, you know what, all emotions

32:25

exist for a reason. They're evolutionarily adaptive.

32:27

If you didn't have negative emotions, how

32:29

would you know something was wrong? Like

32:32

negative emotions are what propels fight

32:34

or flight when you actually need it,

32:36

right? And so the negative emotion, if

32:38

we can just develop an

32:40

attitude of curiosity towards it, like, oh,

32:43

well, I'm feeling this. Why am I feeling this? What is

32:45

it trying to tell me about my life? Maybe

32:47

there's something that I need to address. If

32:49

you can take that attitude of curiosity and

32:51

approach it as an intellectual exercise, maybe that's

32:53

a little bit easier of a bridge for

32:56

people who tend to be more avoidantly attached

32:58

with their emotions. And so it's interesting now,

33:00

like on the other side, since I've done

33:02

so much self development work on my own,

33:04

that now I'm like, my feelings matter. Like

33:06

I wanna, if I feel this way today,

33:08

like it's okay. Like, and it's funny because

33:11

I feel like it took a lot of

33:13

time for me to get to that place

33:15

where that's more comfortable for me. But

33:17

even as I'm saying it now, sometimes

33:19

I'm like, no, too much emotion. Like

33:21

there's still an old script that sometimes

33:23

tries to interfere with the newer development.

33:26

I think that's an important point in all

33:28

of this, that it's not this like complete erase

33:30

of those memories and erase the script. It's always

33:33

gonna be there, just how are you reacting to

33:35

it? Are you able to recognize it? And are

33:37

you able to move against it, away

33:39

from it, or towards the things that really matter

33:41

to you in those moments? And now you know

33:44

in the loving, caring relationship, well, your partner wants

33:46

to see all of the emotions from

33:48

you. They wanna see the positive and the negative

33:50

emotions. They wanna see the excitement and they wanna

33:52

know when your heart is broken, because that's what

33:54

real support is. I know in

33:57

my situation with my family, a

33:59

lot of their view. you on negative emotions where

34:01

they were contagious. So like get that negativity

34:03

away from me or even worse, like, hey,

34:05

you made someone at the family gathering feel

34:07

this way because you were acting this way.

34:09

So act in a different way. Don't show

34:11

that negative emotion cause you hurt Aunt Jerry

34:13

and it's like, well, I didn't mean to

34:15

hurt Aunt Jerry. I was just trying to

34:18

express myself. So in a lot of ways,

34:20

I walled off all of those emotions

34:22

in relationships. And I

34:24

went through a period of grief and losing my

34:26

dad. And you know, it actually disconnected me from

34:29

my friends because they had

34:31

no idea how to even communicate with me because

34:33

I just wasn't being open and honest about the

34:35

grief I was feeling. And I just didn't

34:37

want to answer their call. I didn't want to talk to them. I

34:39

didn't want to dump those emotions on them. Right.

34:41

Yeah. And I think that that is

34:44

so true that again, as the proverbial

34:46

lone wolf, you do try to go

34:49

through all the most challenging times of

34:51

your life on your own, but that

34:54

can be so hard. And it becomes like the

34:56

self perpetuating cycle too. And then again, that reinforces

34:58

these ideas like, well, people can't be counted on.

35:00

They will, but you haven't asked for help either.

35:02

You know? Yeah. And yeah, this

35:04

is huge that most people with avoidant attachment, they're

35:06

always afraid of being a burden to others. And

35:09

like you said, there's some earlier experiences that may have

35:11

caused that. And so as an adult, when

35:13

those ideas still come up, like

35:15

you said, it's not black or white. It's not like,

35:17

okay, once the healing work is done, like it's never

35:20

going to come up again. But that doesn't mean that

35:22

you haven't gotten to the other side. It's more just

35:24

about, oh, now I recognize what it is. And so

35:26

can I do something different in what you were alluding

35:28

to earlier about like living the values based life still,

35:30

you know, like, okay, well, I am

35:32

in distress right now. It's a little chaotic, but what

35:35

can I still do to like drive towards the things

35:37

that mean the most to me? So that's a great

35:39

turn to say, okay, what are my top three values

35:41

today? And what's

35:43

one small thing I could do to

35:45

move each of those things forward and

35:47

to feel like I'm still living that

35:50

truth. You know, that's really important. Even

35:52

being an avoidantly attached person, wanting every

35:54

day to be super productive and super

35:56

goal oriented. And then beating

35:58

yourself up when you're not having. that day. Well, you

36:00

know what, some days aren't going to be like that

36:03

for a variety of reasons. But are you still living

36:05

a values based life? And if you

36:07

are, then you can go to sleep by feeling good

36:09

about yourself. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's

36:11

really the power and values over goals.

36:13

Goals are important. But if you orient

36:15

your entire life around goals, there are

36:17

going to be periods where you aren't

36:19

reaching them where you're falling further away

36:21

from them, where for completely outside of

36:23

your control circumstances, you just can't achieve

36:25

them. But values are a way of

36:27

being that you can incorporate into your

36:29

daily life, whether or not you're feeling

36:31

a negative emotion, a positive emotion, you've

36:33

had a distressful experience at work, you've

36:35

had a coworker who put something on

36:37

you that you didn't deserve, you can

36:39

still live in a value based life, even if your

36:41

goal is to be promoted. Exactly. And

36:44

I think that that's why it's so important

36:46

to know that truly

36:48

mindful living, it actually is going to move

36:50

the needle forward more in the long run,

36:52

even if one or two days you just

36:55

have blips where you're like, I'm not doing

36:57

as much, you know, and it

36:59

is about like, where am I today? And

37:01

how am I feeling and what's going on?

37:04

And sometimes there's things out of our control.

37:06

People with avoidant attachment, especially, they want to

37:08

try to control everything. It's like, well, I'm

37:10

going to do everything myself, some things are

37:12

out of your hands, and you're just going

37:14

to have to let it go. And that's

37:16

another important lesson of, you know, how do

37:18

we actually achieve that more balanced self concept

37:20

of, yes, my achievements are so important, I

37:22

own that, that's a big part of my

37:25

identity. But there's also times where being

37:28

interdependent with somebody else, like that should be

37:30

just as important. Or if I'm not able

37:32

to move towards my goals as quickly as

37:34

I can, I still feel good about myself

37:36

at the end of the day. And I

37:38

think the secret is mindfulness and values based

37:40

life. Yeah, I think in my own

37:42

personal journey, one of the unlocks for

37:44

me were helping other people reach their

37:46

goals. And the feeling that

37:48

that gave me around fulfillment and joy

37:50

in my own life, recognizing that, well,

37:52

if I let other people in on

37:54

my goals as lone wolf, they can

37:57

feel that as well. So really recognizing those

37:59

behaviors and actions. and others being self-reflective

38:01

and saying, oh,

38:05

okay, that's the gift that I'm giving to these people that I share

38:07

my goals with, that

38:10

I ask for that support from. Right,

38:15

exactly. Because at the end of the day, we all want to

38:17

be connected with other people. We

38:20

all want to say, we made a positive impact in someone else's life. I

38:25

think part of the problem that I

38:27

see on social media around the labeling

38:29

of attachment is the negative feelings that

38:32

it fosters, the beating up of yourself,

38:34

the judgment, the critique. And

38:36

I think a big part of this is

38:38

developing self-compassion, recognizing that, hey, this

38:40

is a pattern that, again, was out of your

38:43

control based on the way you were

38:45

raised, environment, genetics, all the things that go into that attachment

38:47

style, understanding that there's going to

38:49

be some work if you want to move

38:51

towards secured, but at the same time recognizing

38:53

that, hey, there were some benefits to having

38:55

this attachment and allowed me to reach

38:58

some goals, some success in my life. It hasn't been

39:00

all negative. So what are

39:02

some ways that we can develop

39:04

self-compassion towards our current attachment? Yeah,

39:06

this is such a huge, and I'm so glad that

39:08

you brought that up. It's so true. We

39:11

have such difficulty being self-compassionate. And

39:14

oftentimes, you know that you have

39:16

problems with self-compassion that are so

39:18

critical of other people because the

39:21

rules come from somewhere. So if you're

39:23

upset with people for things, it's like, actually,

39:25

there's a part of you that's upset with

39:27

yourself. And having compassion is so

39:29

important. I think that one thing is moving

39:31

past anger. I think that sometimes people will

39:33

have a lot of anger either toward themselves

39:36

for having an insecure attachment style now and

39:38

maybe the negative impact it's had, or anger

39:40

toward their parents, like, I'm so mad at

39:42

you because you made me do this, or

39:44

you made me this way. And

39:46

I get that that's oftentimes the first step. You

39:48

have to have something

39:50

to direct your upset at. But eventually,

39:53

you have to move past that and

39:55

say, how can I honor myself and

39:57

value myself just as I am? all

40:00

human beings have worth, regardless of our

40:02

mistakes, regardless of what we've done, regardless

40:04

of the mistakes in the past.

40:07

And until you can achieve that self-compassion,

40:10

you really can't move forward in a positive

40:12

way because there's always going to be something

40:14

that gets you stuck or sabotages your best

40:17

efforts. So one of the things that I

40:19

love the most about, you know, self-compassion

40:21

at work is really just about like sitting

40:23

with your inner child. So your inner child

40:25

is that metaphorical little you that still lives

40:27

in all of us. And you've probably seen

40:29

your inner child come out when you're stressed

40:31

and you just want to play video games

40:33

forever or like do something that makes you

40:36

happy from childhood. You're like, I don't care

40:38

about any of my responsibilities or have

40:40

a tantrum. Exactly. And

40:42

like, and if you can have compassion

40:44

towards your inner child, then it's going

40:46

to heal your adult self and give

40:48

your adult self some compassion too. Oftentimes,

40:51

I think as an adult, we

40:54

push our inner child aside because we're like, no, like

40:56

that's the tantrum for me, like irresponsible

40:58

little child. I don't want to recognize it. But

41:01

if you don't, you're never going to have compassion

41:03

for yourself. So one exercise I

41:05

love to do is a visual addition exercise where

41:07

you essentially picture your your inner child at whatever

41:09

age you want to. It could be five, it

41:12

could be three, it could be 10, maybe

41:14

going through a difficult time. Maybe

41:18

you can just reflect upon like, what was a

41:20

difficult moment during my elementary years or junior high

41:22

years? And then just, you

41:24

know, really bring that picture of your inner

41:26

child to life as much

41:28

as possible. And then imagine

41:30

your adult self meeting your inner

41:32

child and essentially asking your inner

41:34

child, what do you need?

41:36

Like just that simple question, what do you need?

41:39

And then just listening and seeing what your

41:41

inner child is telling you. Maybe your

41:43

inner child is saying like, I just

41:46

need a hug or like, I just

41:48

need to be told that I'm okay, even if

41:50

I didn't get that A, you know, but whatever

41:52

the case is, you know, really recognize that

41:54

that's something that your inner child is still carrying

41:57

with you and it's probably affecting you to this

41:59

day. And then thinking about in the

42:02

next 24 hours, what's one small thing I can do

42:04

to like meet this need of my inner child. So

42:06

if they're saying like, I need to be told that

42:08

I'm okay, even if I'm not achieving, it's like, okay,

42:11

well, as the adult self, I

42:13

have a lot more resources, I have a lot

42:15

more wherewithal control over my life, like

42:17

what is something that I can do to nurture that part

42:19

of myself. And if you do this

42:21

exercise, even weekly, you're going to start to notice

42:23

that you have so much more compassion for yourself,

42:25

because you're basically saying, Hey, you're my inner child,

42:28

you're allowed to come and express your emotions and

42:30

your needs to me at any time, my adult

42:32

self will help take care of it. And

42:34

it gives you that bond of it's

42:37

okay, even if you're telling me something that

42:39

like, my adult self is saying, Whoa, that

42:41

sounds really childish, or like really

42:43

unreasonable. But the more that you actually dialogue

42:45

with your inner child, the more you'll realize

42:47

this is not unreasonable, this is something that

42:49

a human being needs. And I can give

42:52

that to my own self. And that is

42:54

compassion. That is a form of self compassion

42:56

that is very real and that you can

42:58

take with you. Yeah, it's recognizing

43:00

that that part of yourself that's still

43:02

present from childhood is creating these patterns

43:05

that are coming up in relationships, communication,

43:07

the way you see the world, and

43:10

recognizing that, hey, that operating system in that

43:12

moment, I understand where it comes from, I

43:14

understand how it gave you safety and security

43:16

and love. In that situation, it

43:19

doesn't work in this moment. And

43:21

I still care and love about and love

43:23

you. I think that you're capable, even if

43:25

you're feeling this way, even if that insecurity

43:27

is at its peak. Exactly. And

43:29

I think that that is so important because

43:32

our inner child is

43:34

still operating in our adult selves, like all

43:36

the time, you know, and especially when we're

43:38

stressed. And so if you're able to do

43:40

this type of exercise, especially when you're stressed,

43:42

you're basically saying, Hey, it's okay. And it's kind

43:45

of like every child that

43:47

you've ever been around, they're like having a

43:49

tantrum. But like, you basically say, Hey, I'm

43:51

here or like, okay, let's do this. Like

43:53

they calm down, right? It's like, they

43:56

only get louder if they don't feel like

43:58

they're being heard. So if you can

44:00

say, hey, I hear you, that might even be

44:02

enough if you're like, hey, I don't have any great ideas

44:04

of how I'm gonna help you today, but at least I

44:07

hear you and I accept what you're saying, that might be

44:09

enough to get you through that next challenge. Yeah,

44:11

and one of the visualizations that we

44:13

do in our program is in that

44:15

moment where you're feeling that stress and

44:17

that ultimate insecurity taken to its conclusion

44:19

that maybe you just wanna be loved,

44:21

or maybe you feel that person hates

44:23

you, or you're never enough, or you're

44:25

a complete failure. And then picturing yourself

44:27

as a child saying that out loud

44:29

to you. And how would you

44:31

respond? Would you agree and say, yeah, you're a complete

44:33

failure and no one loves you? To

44:36

you as a child? No, you would give that

44:38

child a hug. You would give that child compassion

44:40

in that moment if they were saying it. But

44:42

somehow when we're saying it as an adult, we

44:44

give it more weight, we give it more credence,

44:46

we believe it. Yeah, that's such a great

44:48

point. And like you said, when you really turn around

44:50

and you say, would you really chastise that child that

44:52

way, this crying child at the age of five and

44:54

say, no, it's not okay to feel that way? No,

44:57

you would, like you said, give them a hug, give

44:59

them encouragement. But as an adult, we feel like

45:01

we're supposed to have it all together and we can't

45:04

express those feelings anymore. But that child essentially

45:06

shows you one of the purest forms

45:08

of being human. Because it's before there

45:10

was all these social constructs. It was

45:12

before they thought that there were certain

45:14

ways they had to act. And so

45:16

it's showing you the purest form of, here's

45:18

what I need to self-actualize. Here's what I need

45:21

to feel safe so I can actually do the

45:23

things that are meaningful to me. And

45:25

it might be a little easier when you picture

45:28

that to say, yes, I accept that and I

45:30

can give that to you versus our adult self.

45:32

But eventually, that's the connection. The connection is that

45:34

you're giving that to your adult self. You're

45:36

giving them that permission. Now with

45:38

attachment styles and relationships in general,

45:40

there's typically another person involved in

45:43

the relationship. And I Know

45:45

one of the questions that we hear from

45:47

our clients once they start working on their

45:49

attachment style, is they become really in tune

45:52

with their partner's attachment style.? And Sometimes it

45:54

can actually drive them crazy. It Can feel

45:56

very frustrating that you're doing the work on

45:58

yourself, you're overcoming. Patterns and and maybe

46:01

are partners up moving along and maybe your

46:03

partner doesn't want to deal with these patterns.

46:05

So what is your advice in that situation?

46:07

When you feel that maybe the relationship and

46:09

the the work you've done on yourself isn't

46:11

being met and your needs are being met

46:13

in this relationship. Yeah. I can be really

46:15

frustrating because you know oftentimes one partner will

46:17

be of ahead of the other partner in

46:19

self development. it is other mean that that

46:21

really subs not going to work. You also

46:23

have to show up authentically and let your

46:26

partner know what's bothering you. And so again

46:28

we've been talking a lot about avoided attachment

46:30

because I knew sp slots your audience and

46:32

you know the avoidantly a task person might

46:34

just be like starting to does this. Associate

46:36

from that like to start to go away and

46:39

be like well met. This may not work for

46:41

me anymore. Like you have to challenge yourself to

46:43

say no like this is a time to communicate

46:45

at and say look. We. Don't have

46:47

to have the same journey. But I'd been frustrated

46:49

because I feel like I'm working so hard on

46:51

having better communication with you, but I don't really

46:54

feel like it's going both ways to like. What

46:56

do you think about that? and what do you

46:58

think as a way that we can improve our

47:01

relationships? Put it in the other person's court after

47:03

communicating because. You. Don't want them to feel

47:05

like they're being accused right? So you wanna? You

47:07

don't want to say well I think that you

47:09

don't want to work on yourself as yell care

47:11

of all Cel develop nuts uses a thought about

47:14

where observing right? Sick to think that you can

47:16

actually look at it like a research study. Like

47:18

just looking you observe from the outside but don't

47:20

make any presumptions about their intentions and then put

47:22

the ball in their court like what do you

47:25

think and how do you think we can improve

47:27

Because I want to be more connected to, I

47:29

want us to feel happier in this relationship and

47:31

so I think that that's really the first step

47:33

is not. Really about like throwing up your hands

47:35

and giving up on s that just letting them know

47:37

like. This. Doesn't feel good to

47:40

me. So what can we do to like?

47:42

meet this need together? Because this in this

47:44

relationship is important. To me, it's really to

47:46

patterns combining into one in a relationship, and

47:48

depending how long you been in that relationship

47:50

together or those patterns become quite comfortable for

47:53

both of you. How you're selling Ali and

47:55

now you're doing all this work, you're breaking

47:57

your potter and the relationship will. It is

47:59

gonna cost us. Comfort in your partner. They're

48:01

not gonna know necessarily how to show up

48:03

now because it's different than how you should

48:05

up in the past and in arguments in

48:07

conflicts in in distress. Exactly I me and

48:09

get worse before it gets better. almost always does

48:12

with any kind of change whether it's parenting or

48:14

relationships or even like corporate structure. As you know,

48:16

something that we talk about a lot is

48:18

like family systems theory which is like when somebody

48:20

in the family says some all of them and

48:23

doesn't do what they used to do. Yeah, for

48:25

better or for worse. I. Dot. Throw

48:27

the system into chaos As a oh no,

48:29

you're supposed to be the black sheep of

48:31

the family. Now you're getting your sit together

48:33

and like are doing all. it's like that

48:35

freaks people out. You know that you have

48:37

to also give your partner a little gray

48:39

said away like they used to communicate this

48:41

other. Wait, now they're doing this. What?

48:44

Does that mean for me? Like how does

48:46

that mean about my communication with them And

48:48

so it does take time. It does take

48:50

effort, but. You. Can always restructure

48:52

the system for the better. whether it's a

48:54

partnership, a family, or like the work. Team

48:56

would software that family environment because I know

48:58

with a lot of this work outside of

49:01

the anger and resentment we talked about but

49:03

you with family we might just want to

49:05

start over. increase fresh communication I believe recognizes

49:07

pattern and maybe in the past in that

49:10

situation a and family conflict you would just

49:12

become avoid and and not answer their color

49:14

not agree to go to the family trip.

49:16

Now you wanna be a bigger part of

49:18

the family system. how you make change in

49:21

that environment. Words now dynamic that really has

49:23

been well worn. probably lasted longer than a

49:25

lot of our. Romantic in personal

49:27

relationships. Yeah, so I think that the

49:29

first key is really just as are practicing

49:32

active listening as a family. So this is

49:34

something that we do a lot of in

49:36

therapy. We talk about a lot in therapy,

49:38

but I feel like that So many different

49:40

applications so we can really listen to understand.

49:42

oftentimes and we're talking to other people even

49:44

in a social environment where like thinking about

49:46

what we're going to say next like your

49:48

say something to me and I'm like oh,

49:50

really want to see this other things but

49:53

these are missing part of the actual conversation

49:55

with what they're really trying to communicate. It's

49:57

kind of about trusting. yourself that you know that

49:59

you're going to up with the next logical

50:01

thing to say or the next interesting or

50:03

helpful thing to say, but that's easier said

50:05

than done. So active listening has a very

50:07

easy script. Essentially, somebody else is going to

50:09

communicate for a little bit. You're going to

50:11

try to listen and be as attentive as

50:13

possible. When they're done, the thing that you're

50:16

going to say is just trying to recap

50:18

what they said. And it

50:20

can be in your own words. You don't have to use

50:22

their words, right? It's just kind of summarizing and paraphrasing. And

50:25

then that gives the other person a chance to

50:27

say, yeah, that's what I was saying. Well, actually,

50:29

you missed this one piece. Or like, no, that

50:31

was not right, but let me try again. But

50:34

it's so helpful because then you're not

50:36

caring with the miscommunication of what you

50:39

heard and then that feeling what

50:41

you say next, right? So even

50:43

just that piece, it slows down the

50:45

communication and makes sure that it's actually

50:48

accurate what's being communicated. And

50:50

then the second step is just affirming

50:52

something about what you heard. So once the person

50:54

says, okay, that's pretty much what I said, like,

50:57

that sounds good. The next thing you

50:59

can say is, okay, so based on what you

51:01

said, like, this was interesting to me.

51:03

Or like, I totally resonate

51:05

with this and understand it. Or like, even

51:07

though I don't agree, I can empathize

51:10

with how you're feeling, right? It's not really about,

51:12

oh, now we all agree with each other. But

51:14

it's just about, is there something that you can

51:16

acknowledge and what they said that like resonates

51:19

with you, that you have more questions about, that

51:21

like makes sense? Like,

51:23

that's all we're asking. We're not saying you

51:25

have to agree on everything. But that is

51:27

just a huge key to like start breaking

51:30

down any old patterns that

51:32

aren't working in your family system and starting

51:34

to communicate in a better way that makes

51:36

everybody feel heard. I feel in a lot

51:38

of ways with that anger and

51:41

resentment bubbling up, there can be

51:43

no room for forgiveness and might

51:45

even want to cut your family

51:47

off and completely disassociate from your

51:49

family. How can we practice forgiveness

51:51

in these situations? Again, hearkening back to what we

51:53

said earlier that our parents were trying the best

51:55

they could in a situation that they were in

51:58

and they did care and love each other. for

52:00

us even if they're bringing past patterns and their

52:02

own attachment theory into the way they're raising us.

52:04

Yeah, definitely. I think that anger can be

52:06

such a powerful emotion. It's such a strong

52:09

cover for more vulnerable emotions that oftentimes

52:11

we just want to live in it

52:13

forever because it sometimes feels more comfortable

52:15

to be angry than to be sad

52:17

or to be disappointed or to be

52:19

heartbroken, right? And so kind of recognizing

52:21

that anger actually doesn't really help you.

52:24

Like anger really manifests in

52:27

such terrible emotional and

52:29

physical ways, especially if it's chronic. So like,

52:31

of course you should let yourself be angry,

52:33

but like let yourself also

52:35

move past it after that initial phase

52:37

and basically say, okay, I

52:40

don't have to be so in love

52:42

with my mom and dad now. Like all of a

52:44

sudden I'm like pretending that everything's fine. That's not what

52:46

we're talking about. But it's more about can

52:48

we go back and just recognize like one thing

52:50

that they gave me today that like is a

52:52

positive, you know? I mean,

52:54

that's a start of just one little, even if

52:56

it's a little thing, even if it's like, well,

52:58

like because they were so anxious, like, I guess

53:01

like it made me more aware

53:03

of like potential dangers, even if it's sometimes

53:05

overboard. Yeah. Like it

53:07

has helped me in some ways to be

53:10

more cautious. Maybe when I should write, it

53:12

can be any little thing. And

53:14

then I think it's really just also about recognizing

53:16

that you can do this in doses. It

53:19

doesn't mean that you now all of a sudden want to like spend

53:21

a whole weekend with your parents. And

53:23

like, you know what, like, let's just

53:25

start by saying like, let's go get lunch

53:28

and let's keep it low key. Let's

53:30

like have an end time because I don't know if I

53:32

want to hang out with them for three hours. But

53:35

it's just about letting yourself do this in the

53:37

doses that feel comfortable to you. And

53:39

you should throw out whatever presuppositions you have about

53:42

what you're supposed to do as a good child

53:44

or like how you're supposed to heal. It's like

53:47

if you don't want to talk to them after the lunch for

53:49

three weeks, like it's okay to, you know, like

53:51

you just have to meet your self. Where it's at.

53:53

But I think that it's always important to kind of

53:55

think about we only have this one life. We

53:58

only have limited time. is your

54:00

true goal never to speak to your parents again and

54:02

never have a relationship? And if it's not, like,

54:05

let's meet them where they're at. Let's value

54:07

and cherish the good of the relationship.

54:09

Yeah, it could definitely be

54:12

a challenge. And of course, we want it to

54:14

happen fast and quickly, but it doesn't always work

54:16

that way in the family dynamic and family system.

54:19

Yeah. And I think that a big

54:21

part of it is also forgiving yourself,

54:23

you know, sometimes that anger, it's really

54:25

hiding that there's parts of yourself that

54:27

you resent, you know, because sometimes

54:29

when we resent what our parents have

54:32

taught us, the

54:34

biggest realization is that maybe some of those lessons

54:36

still seeped into how you work. How we are.

54:38

Yeah. And then so like, there's a little

54:40

bit of like, self hatred in there that maybe

54:42

we need to resolve to. And so until you

54:45

can kind of see the other side of, okay,

54:47

there's still some good that came out of this,

54:50

you have to recognize in yourself as well

54:52

as, you know, other people for that work

54:54

to be complete. Going back to the

54:56

earlier part around anxious attachment

54:58

and in career. So I know for

55:00

a lot of our clients,

55:03

they don't want to change their anxious

55:05

attachment in their career. And oftentimes it

55:07

leads to difficult relationship building at the

55:09

career level. And it leads to you

55:11

feeling that you're only as good as

55:13

your last achievement, when in actuality, your

55:16

network can create more achievement and more

55:18

opportunity in your career. So what is

55:20

your advice when it comes to breaking

55:22

free of that anxious attachment in our

55:24

career? Yeah, I think it can be so easy

55:26

to say, you know what, like, I

55:28

am responsible solely for what I'm

55:31

doing. And I have

55:33

to keep achieving. And I can't let anyone

55:35

stop me. So then instead of seeing other

55:37

people as resources and support, you see them

55:39

as enemies, you see them as competition, you

55:41

see them as barriers to your success. And

55:44

so it's not going to be something

55:46

that you can do overnight. But it

55:48

is something where you start to value

55:50

other people for the

55:53

areas that they're good at. One of the things that

55:55

has helped me the most is really connecting

55:57

with people who have like slightly different

55:59

different expertise than me, but there's some overlap

56:02

because I know that I'm learning something from

56:04

them and maybe that's the first step of

56:06

like, oh, I see the value in

56:08

what you're bringing. And then slowly

56:10

understanding that really is these collective minds

56:13

that allows like bigger opportunities. I've always

56:15

found that when I start talking to

56:17

somebody about an idea, it sparks other

56:19

ideas. Like there's only so much

56:21

your one brain can do, but maybe

56:23

the little space to like start the

56:25

work is to find other people whose

56:28

expertise are like slightly different from yours,

56:30

but there's some overlap and interest or

56:32

skill set so that there's a mutual respect

56:35

of, well, I don't know as much about

56:37

this area, so that's something that you can

56:39

tell me about. It's really interesting. There was

56:41

actually a really cool research study that was

56:43

done with elementary students and it was helping

56:45

them to foster collaboration. And what they did

56:47

was they would break up a project into

56:50

four pieces. It was like a jigsaw. So essentially

56:52

you really could not finish the project unless you

56:54

listen to the other person. So it's almost like

56:56

everybody has like one part of a short story,

56:58

but then you needed to make a summary of

57:00

that story. So then like one

57:03

person has like the first page, the second person,

57:05

the second page. So you literally remove them from

57:07

being able to do the work completely by themselves.

57:09

And you have to listen to the person recap

57:11

page two for you or else you won't have

57:14

the whole story. So it's almost like that kind

57:16

of idea when we're thinking about how to work

57:18

in teams and how to help people with avoidant

57:20

attachment start to rely on others. It's like, let's

57:22

bring in somebody who has something that you don't.

57:25

And like the end

57:27

for you is I get to learn something that

57:29

helps me towards my goals, but you start to

57:32

recognize the value of other people when you start

57:34

working in this way. Yeah, and

57:36

that reciprocity of delegation, right? Recognizing

57:38

that starting small with delegating tasks

57:40

and then also supporting others and

57:42

taking on some tasks that maybe

57:44

aren't directly your goals and oriented

57:46

around what you want to achieve

57:49

can start to break through that

57:51

piece around vulnerability and starting to

57:53

trust others in your work. And

57:56

then I think once you start to have more positive

57:58

experiences, it's going to start bringing you. more towards

58:00

like a balance, more secure attachment when you say,

58:02

Oh, you know what, maybe there are some things

58:04

that I should be doing because I'm, I

58:07

really am the best at them. I've been working on

58:09

it. But there are other people who can help with

58:11

these other pieces. And in turn, I can help them

58:13

too. And like, that'll help both of our achievements, you

58:15

know, yeah, I know in my own

58:17

experience, I was, in a lot of

58:19

ways, just starved for appreciation. And I

58:22

found it only when I achieved big lofty

58:24

goals, like getting into college and getting into

58:26

graduate school. But outside of that, in the

58:28

day to day where I really needed some

58:30

appreciation and pep talk, I wasn't getting it

58:33

from my family structure. And then

58:35

it became very difficult for me as I moved

58:37

into leadership role to then appreciate those around me,

58:39

because I'm like, well, it's not a big goal.

58:41

Like, we have bigger goals that we have to

58:44

focus on. And I started just with

58:46

our team, just focusing on appreciating more

58:48

frequently, and seeing how powerful that

58:51

was. And now I incorporate that with all

58:53

of our clients that work with us, you

58:55

have this tendency to just start recognizing the

58:57

talents, the gifts that other people around you

59:00

have, and verbalizing it, share that appreciation, see

59:03

their response, see how it impacts their

59:05

work. And you're going to find by

59:08

leading that oftentimes you'll hear that appreciation

59:10

back. Exactly. I think when you're

59:12

in a leadership role, so much of it

59:14

is like an opportunity to also help heal

59:16

insecure attachment in your teammates and

59:18

like employees and people that you're supervising.

59:21

But it's so interesting when you said

59:23

that, you know, as an avoidantly

59:25

attached person, like because you weren't getting as much

59:27

of that, like, it also didn't really necessarily occur

59:29

to you to do that for

59:31

others, like automatically until you start saying, Hey,

59:34

you know what, this could actually be of

59:36

such value. And it's so important that we

59:38

all recognize that like, obviously, we're all coming

59:40

from our own experiences and sort of

59:42

how we operate, and then learning how

59:44

important and how much like

59:46

just one sentence of appreciation

59:49

goes like just goes such a long way

59:51

for people to invest more to feel good

59:53

about themselves, and then to like actually start

59:55

to spark ideas of self initiation of like,

59:57

Oh, what can I do next to like

1:00:00

get the next accolade, like I want to have

1:00:02

some more positive reinforcement or like I want to

1:00:04

help this person like they've helped me they made

1:00:06

me feel good about myself like so I now

1:00:08

want to go to bat for them you know

1:00:10

so even as a leader or a manager I

1:00:12

think that it's important to recognize that that no

1:00:14

matter what attachment style you're

1:00:16

working with most people want to be acknowledged

1:00:18

and appreciated in different ways you know it's

1:00:20

kind of like a love language that I

1:00:22

think is relatively universal. Absolutely the validation

1:00:24

piece and just being fully seen in

1:00:27

the work that you're doing because I

1:00:29

know for a lot of us especially

1:00:31

at this stage in our career those

1:00:33

goals are big and they take a

1:00:35

long time to be reached at a

1:00:37

company level and if we're not appreciating

1:00:39

all the steps along the way it

1:00:42

can feel very daunting demotivating it

1:00:44

can work against our productivity and

1:00:46

our mental health in a work

1:00:48

environment. Exactly and I think

1:00:50

sometimes we think well no like we want to

1:00:52

you know recognize the small things because then they

1:00:55

might like not keep their eye on the prize

1:00:57

but actually it helps people to keep their eye

1:00:59

on the prize to say I do recognize what

1:01:01

you did today and I know

1:01:03

that there's still a lot before we get to that big

1:01:05

goal but like what you did today was helpful it was

1:01:08

instrumental it helped move the needle. Yeah now

1:01:10

I have to ask what the listeners

1:01:12

are probably thinking in this point is

1:01:14

the goal secure attachment like if I've

1:01:16

recognized that I'm anxious or avoidant should

1:01:18

I be working really hard in reading

1:01:20

your book to become secure attachment or

1:01:22

can I live with my current attachment

1:01:24

and improve on the way that I'm

1:01:26

interacting in relationships. Yeah that's an awesome question

1:01:28

I mean I think that there's obviously a lot to

1:01:30

take away from the secure attachment style and I think

1:01:32

that probably for most people the

1:01:34

goal is to become more securely attached but

1:01:36

I also think that in the name of

1:01:38

self-compassion like we've been talking about throughout you

1:01:41

know our time together it's

1:01:43

also about just like recognizing and

1:01:45

like honoring where you are and

1:01:47

if you're avoidant attachment just keeps

1:01:49

showing up it's okay like

1:01:51

there's nothing wrong with that either it's like okay

1:01:54

well how can I harness the strength of it

1:01:56

and then try not to let the the things

1:01:58

that it might cause problems with like Get

1:02:00

the best To me and naturally a

1:02:02

whole that it is. I mean, I

1:02:04

actually think that you know every single

1:02:06

attacks without even the insecure ones come

1:02:08

with prose. and so it's really just

1:02:10

about leveraging. The pros. you know we

1:02:12

we spent less time talking about asis

1:02:14

attachment, but aces attachment. Oftentimes their people

1:02:16

pleasers. they're They're always wanting to bend

1:02:18

over backwards to help other people, so

1:02:20

are we safe? Throw that out with

1:02:22

the bathwater, Know where she's saying hey,

1:02:24

in a lot Like. The. Buy yourself

1:02:26

some time so to. and also this is

1:02:28

not the only way to get reinforcements from

1:02:31

other people's a life. Learn to say no

1:02:33

a little bit but obviously you love helping

1:02:35

the people. Makes you feel good when I

1:02:37

say take that completely away. And so it's

1:02:39

not about changing yourself so much and now

1:02:41

you feel you're not even an authentic part

1:02:43

of yourself right for the sake of secure

1:02:45

attachments, but it's more about like harnessing was

1:02:47

working for. You accept where you're at but

1:02:49

then take and hardest what is working for

1:02:51

people who are securely attached for yourself to.

1:02:53

Yeah, bring those tools and your

1:02:55

communication relationships in over the anxious

1:02:58

attachments for the oxygen mask on.

1:03:00

Firstly, we need to take care

1:03:02

of ourselves before running around pleasing

1:03:04

everyone else. Exactly. I mean die. I

1:03:06

love. That analogy is just like that. There's

1:03:08

a reason why they say that of the

1:03:10

safety briefing on plays because if you try

1:03:12

to help somebody else, you might like. I

1:03:14

have a daughter as well because you're not

1:03:16

actually breathing And adding that that's something that's

1:03:18

really important for us. To reinforce. In

1:03:21

the research for this book was raining thing

1:03:23

that stood out to those really surprising an

1:03:25

interesting. Yeah, I mean for me, I

1:03:27

think that because there's been so much focus

1:03:29

on romantic relationships like what I found to

1:03:31

be really interesting and surprising just how much

1:03:33

it can really affect all the different areas

1:03:35

of your life. but even how much you

1:03:37

dream like how much you dream and what

1:03:39

you vision for your life like when you

1:03:41

asked as big questions like the big Miracle

1:03:43

question of like if you woke up the

1:03:46

next day and you had the like that

1:03:48

you wanted, what would it look like What

1:03:50

I find is that some people with insecure

1:03:52

attachment, they just tend to have more difficulty

1:03:54

dreaming big and like really envisioning a lifer.

1:03:56

Like. Things. are relatively optimize like their

1:03:58

dreams tend to be a little bit smaller

1:04:00

or they tend to be either dependent on

1:04:03

other people or too dependent on themselves. And

1:04:06

so that I think is something that people

1:04:08

need to know because again in pop media,

1:04:10

we always hear it being talked about in

1:04:12

romantic relationships. And we've already talked about why

1:04:14

that is so interesting and tantalizing

1:04:16

for people makes sense. It's like the

1:04:18

most intimate relationships for most people, but

1:04:21

it shows up in so many areas. It shows up

1:04:23

in like just at the base level,

1:04:26

what you think is possible for you. And I

1:04:28

think that that is so important for us

1:04:30

to address. Yeah, and you mentioned it

1:04:32

earlier, the secure attachment doesn't believe that

1:04:34

they're not worthy doesn't believe that good

1:04:36

things shouldn't happen to them. And so

1:04:39

much of our insecurity in the other

1:04:41

insecure attachment styles has that belief that

1:04:43

I'm not deserving, I shouldn't feel loved,

1:04:45

I shouldn't speak out, I shouldn't achieve

1:04:47

such big things in my life, I

1:04:49

need to be focused on helping others

1:04:52

achieve big things or they're worthy. Exactly.

1:04:54

And the self sabotaging behaviors

1:04:57

and patterns come from that because when you

1:04:59

do achieve something good, you're like, Oh, something's

1:05:01

not right. Like, and then subconsciously

1:05:03

you do things to mess it up or to take

1:05:05

it away. And then of course, once that does happen,

1:05:08

you're like, aha, see, right? deserve it in the first

1:05:10

place. That's why I went away. But we don't realize

1:05:12

that our own behavior patterns and our thoughts are contributing

1:05:14

to that. Beautifully put. So where

1:05:16

can our audience find the book and the quiz and

1:05:19

learn their attachment style? So you can follow

1:05:21

me on social media at Dr. Judy Ho, or

1:05:23

you can go to my website. I always have

1:05:25

free resources on there at dr. Judy Ho calm

1:05:27

and you can find it wherever books are sold.

1:05:29

Most people get it from Amazon. So it's available

1:05:31

there. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Thank

1:05:34

you. This

1:05:45

week shout out comes from Daniel and I'm

1:05:47

going to let him tell you for himself,

1:05:49

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