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Change wherever you get your podcasts. As

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and make 2024 your best year yet. Welcome

2:45

to the Art of Charm podcast, where

2:47

we break down the science of powerful

2:49

communication and winning mindsets, so you have

2:51

the cheat code to succeed with people.

2:53

Every episode is jam-packed with actionable steps

2:55

to unlock the hidden superpowers inside of

2:57

you. Level up with

2:59

us each week by listening to interviews with

3:01

the best in business, psychology, and relationships. We

3:04

distill thousands of hours of research in the

3:06

most effective tools and the latest science so

3:08

you can start winning today. Let's face it,

3:10

in order to be seen and heard, your

3:13

communication needs to cut through the noise, and

3:15

we're gonna show you how. I'm AJ,

3:17

successfully recovered introvert, entrepreneur, and self-development junkie.

3:20

And I'm Johnny Zubak, former touring musician,

3:22

promoter, rock and roller, and co-founder here

3:24

at the Art of Charm. And for

3:26

the last 15 years, we've

3:29

trained thousands of top performers and teams

3:31

from every background. We have dedicated our

3:33

lives to teaching men and women all

3:35

they need to know about communication, networking,

3:38

and relationships. You shouldn't have to settle

3:40

for anything less than extraordinary. All

3:45

right, let's kick off today's show. Today

3:47

we're talking with the former NASA astronaut,

3:49

Dr. Mike Massimino. Dr. Massimino

3:51

served as an astronaut from 1996 to 2014, and

3:56

went to space twice. He was the

3:58

first human to tweet from space. and the last

4:00

human to work inside the Hubble telescope. He

4:03

received his PhD from MIT,

4:05

and you might have even seen him

4:07

on the Big Bang Theory, where he played

4:09

himself in a couple of episodes. He's joining

4:12

us today to discuss his new book, Moonshot,

4:14

a NASA astronaut's guide to achieving the impossible.

4:16

We discuss Hoot's law and how to handle

4:18

mistakes in space, what it takes to build

4:21

a team culture for success at NASA, the

4:23

30-second rule to overcome regret and perform

4:26

like an astronaut, as well as

4:28

his biggest lessons from the Hubble telescope mission. Well,

4:30

welcome to the show, Mike. I believe you're our

4:32

first astronaut in 17 years. Really?

4:35

Yes. I'm very happy to

4:37

be the first guy. It's

4:41

all uphill from here. There's

4:43

a lot of good astronauts out there, so maybe

4:46

we'll see who else can join you. But thank you for having me.

4:48

We thoroughly enjoyed the book. And

4:51

I know growing up, Johnny and

4:53

I had friends who wanted

4:55

to be astronauts. It was a common thing

4:57

the kids wanted to be. Back in the

4:59

day, now we hear YouTuber, podcaster, content creator.

5:02

When did you know that you wanted to be an astronaut?

5:04

I'm old enough to remember Neil Armstrong on the moon. So

5:07

it was in July of 1969. I

5:10

was six years old, and I saw Neil Armstrong walk

5:12

on the moon. And I

5:15

not only wanted to be an astronaut, I

5:17

wanted to be Neil Armstrong. So I

5:19

said, I want to be that guy. I want to do

5:21

that. And all those

5:23

guys, Michael Collins and Buzz

5:25

Aldrin and Pete Conrad,

5:28

Jim Lovell. They were all

5:30

my heroes, John Young. So I

5:32

knew all those astronauts like I knew baseball

5:34

players back then. And it's

5:36

kind of cool. I've gotten to know most of them now. So

5:38

by this time, a lot of them are gone now, too. But

5:41

that's what I wanted to do as a little kid. And it

5:43

really made an impression on me. And I knew it was important,

5:45

but like a lot of kids want to grow up to be

5:47

astronauts, as you said. But it really

5:49

stayed with me. I thought it was impossible. By the time I was

5:51

eight years old, it was never going to happen. I

5:54

found out I was afraid of heights about that age.

5:56

And I still don't like heights. I just hate them.

5:59

And I try to avoid them. I can. I never thought

6:01

it could happen. My eyesight went bad when

6:03

I was young. I mean, you know, couldn't

6:05

see very well. I needed

6:08

glasses at an early age and thought

6:10

I could never grow up to be Neil Armstrong, which

6:13

was true, but the astronaut

6:15

program changed. When I was a

6:17

senior in college, so I kind of forgot about it until I

6:19

was a senior in college, and I went to the movies and saw the

6:21

right stuff based on the movie, right? So

6:25

based on the book by Tom Wolfe of the same name. That

6:28

got me thinking again about the space program, and

6:30

I decided at

6:32

some point after seeing that movie and watching

6:35

reruns of it on my VCR back then,

6:37

I realized either I could

6:39

just be interested in reading articles about the

6:41

space program or I could try to be a part of

6:43

it. I went to grad school with

6:45

the idea of at least

6:47

trying to become part of the space program. I never thought

6:49

the astronaut thing would really work out. I don't know

6:51

if you guys can see these patches behind the wall. Yeah.

6:55

Like every time I see one of my flight patches, I make sure my

6:57

name is Stelanet. But some of you are like, I guess this will never

6:59

happen. But that's what happened. So

7:01

it happened as a little kid and then as

7:03

an adult, being a senior in college,

7:06

that I got reignited in that passion. And

7:08

I think it really, though, is what happened to me as a

7:10

little boy that was always there in my heart and

7:13

soul of my mind that I wanted to be a part of the space

7:15

program. Yeah, that opens up the

7:17

book talking about the

7:19

eyesight issue. I remember when I

7:22

was a young man and I had

7:25

some thoughts about wanting to be a fighter pilot

7:27

and then I was told, well, you have bad

7:29

eyes, so you can't do that. So I changed

7:31

my major into being a rock and roller and

7:33

was able to do that. But you

7:36

didn't take hearing that very well and that

7:38

opens the book about obstacles and getting over

7:40

them. Could you tell our audience a little

7:42

bit about that? But wait a minute. Rock

7:44

and roll things are a pretty good thing, too. Do you

7:47

think you would have? I mean, if

7:49

your eyes were better, you'd be a fighter pilot,

7:51

you think? Or would you have changed over to

7:53

rock and roll or eventually? I bet you would

7:55

have. Well, my dad

7:57

was a rock and roller and they

7:59

were happy. So there you go. Eventually it would

8:01

have been a rock and roll turn anyway. So

8:04

there you go. All right. So well, with me,

8:06

I didn't, you know, I wasn't talented enough to

8:08

be a rock and roll at John. So, uh,

8:10

and I, you know, the other being

8:12

a professional athlete, that wasn't in the

8:14

cards as far as the sports that

8:17

I had tried. So maybe there was some hidden talent

8:19

I had in something else, but, uh,

8:21

no, for, for what I, for me, as you're saying,

8:23

to my eyesight. So what happened was, as I applied

8:25

and was, was rejected the first time I applied, I

8:28

just got a letter. The second time I was in

8:30

grad school at this point, second time I was almost

8:32

on grad school and they would announce it

8:34

again. So every few years, NASA is looking for astronauts. Still,

8:36

that's the way they do it now. So

8:38

the next time it came up, I applied again and I

8:40

got another rejection letter a few months later. And then the

8:43

third time though, by this point, I

8:46

had gotten my, my PhD and I was down at

8:48

the Johnson Space Center working and they called

8:50

me in for an interview. So when you're an,

8:52

you're a finalist then, and your odds

8:54

are getting better at that point. You know, it's

8:56

about 120 people they interview over the court in

8:58

groups of 20 over six weeks. So anyway,

9:01

I went in there with, with, with high hopes,

9:03

but then I failed the eye exam. Uh, I

9:06

couldn't see well enough. And you mentioned the thing about

9:08

the fighter pilot stuff. That's all done. So

9:10

if any kids are listening or don't worry about

9:13

it, they throw all that stuff out. That's antiquated

9:15

stuff left over from a long time ago, like

9:18

World War II, when you needed to see the other

9:20

guy, when you were flying and whoever saw the other

9:22

guy first won the fight. Won the fight

9:24

in an airplane, right? In a dog fight. Now they have

9:27

all kinds of electronic stuff. NASA

9:29

doesn't even really have a vision standard any longer. As

9:32

long as you're correctable of 2020, LASIK is accepted as

9:34

long as it's stable. It's a different world. But

9:36

back then, this is the mid-1980s you needed to see well. And

9:39

when I was told that I was disqualified,

9:42

what they told me was, is that that's

9:44

it. You're disqualified and we will not

9:46

even read your application in the future. So that

9:48

was pretty disappointing. And so is there anything I

9:51

can do? Because I had heard that

9:53

sometimes people have something that they're concerned about

9:55

and they're able to get an operation or get

9:58

it checked out or provide more data. and

10:01

get it overturned. And they were like, no,

10:03

because your eyes are what they are. We don't

10:06

accept it. I don't even know if laser exist

10:08

and they're like, you're done. And I

10:10

thought about it, I was like, there has to be a way

10:12

around it. Because they didn't want any medical procedure, any

10:14

surgical thing done or anything. So I

10:16

found out about something called vision training, which

10:19

was done with kids, right? It was like

10:21

a kid thing, when their eyes are still

10:23

developing, if they have bad eyesight, there's things

10:25

that doctors can, so there was this doctor's

10:28

like a pediatric optometrist in

10:30

the neighborhood, more or less, that did this. So

10:32

I made an appointment to see her and I said, please, I

10:35

can be really immature. You won't know the difference. Please

10:37

help me. She didn't think it

10:39

was gonna work, but it did. I

10:42

was able to pick up a couple lines. It's like training your

10:44

eyes and your brain to see better. I just

10:46

needed to feel like at least I could try. I think the

10:49

way I looked, what I was looking at it is that,

10:52

as long as I was trying, I was okay. Just to

10:54

give up, the first chapter you said

10:56

the book starts, the first chapter is

10:58

one in a million is not zero. And I

11:00

came up with that when I was in grad school,

11:03

after I got my second rejection, was a, hey, this

11:05

is impossible. And I said, no, it's

11:07

not really impossible. It's like one out of a million. One

11:09

out of a million is a non-zero outcome, by

11:11

definition. I was up at MIT, there's a lot of math going on

11:14

up there. So I even verified this with

11:16

the math people. And they said,

11:18

yes, it's a non-zero outcome. But as soon as you

11:20

give up guys, that one at the end of those

11:22

zeros, turns into a zero and

11:24

you know the outcome with certainty, you will

11:26

not be successful. And so

11:29

that's that to keep, you know, maybe there's a chance, but

11:31

also I think looking back on it, it was just to

11:33

be able to try, I think a success. Not

11:35

giving up is being successful. Once you give up,

11:37

that's when you're defeated. And I didn't want that

11:39

to happen. So I was gonna do everything I could

11:41

to figure out a way to try

11:43

to remain in the game. So

11:45

beyond the eyesight, next challenge

11:48

is swimming, which I don't think a lot

11:50

of people would assume astronauts have to deal

11:52

with, in terms of testing to become

11:54

one. Yeah. How did

11:56

swimming come up and why was that a challenge

11:58

for you? Yeah, AJ, You said that

12:00

you wouldn't think that you'd need to swim to be

12:02

an astronaut? Yeah. That's what I thought. Well,

12:06

luckily, it wasn't part of selection. I'm glad there

12:08

was no, you know, all right, everybody jump in

12:10

the pool. During selection, it

12:12

was after I was selected. And

12:14

I think they didn't bring it up maybe because they

12:16

figured they could train us to do that if we

12:19

couldn't swim, but or they just

12:21

figured most people could swim, you know, like it's kind

12:23

of like, as I say in the

12:25

book, like making a grilled cheese sandwich. There

12:27

is some life skills that most people should,

12:29

you know, probably have by the time they're

12:31

30 years old or whatever. So

12:34

yeah, I got my packet of information after I

12:36

was called on the phone that I was going

12:38

to be an astronaut. And the

12:40

greeting letter was congratulations. And in

12:42

paragraph two was, please practice

12:44

your swim skills. So I guess they did have

12:47

trouble with this in the past. And they kind

12:49

of explained that that sometimes people come unprepared for

12:51

the swim test. And you need to be

12:53

able to pass a pretty rigorous swim test in

12:55

order to go through water survival. And they did a very good

12:57

job of training with the Navy in Pensacola. And

12:59

I guess what happened is they were sending

13:02

candidates down there because you hired as an

13:04

astronaut candidate. It's the astronaut candidate program, or

13:06

as they called us affectionately, ask cans. So I was

13:08

an ask can at this point. You

13:11

know, so they're reserving right

13:13

to fire you within two years

13:15

for whatever reason. The

13:17

swim test was going to allow

13:19

us to enter this course with the Navy

13:21

so we could learn how to survive in

13:23

the water, get out of an airplane over

13:25

water with an ejection seat. Aircraft,

13:27

we were going to be flying as a high performance jet,

13:30

the T-38. Also

13:32

we were on the shuttle. There was a bailout scenario

13:35

for an abort. Wouldn't it be pleasant? But if

13:37

you had to get out of the spaceship, you would bail out of it

13:39

over the ocean. So you needed to be able

13:41

to survive in the water until they would come get you, and

13:44

a helicopter or whatever was coming to get you. So

13:47

that was a course that was required before you could

13:49

go through the pilot training, the T-38

13:52

training, or the shuttle

13:54

training. So it was kind of like the first thing we were

13:56

going to do. They gave us

13:58

the requirements. For me it was pretty serious.

14:00

For most people who can swim it's probably not that big of a

14:03

deal but it was a series of

14:05

laps, I don't know, a couple

14:07

hundred yards with you. You had to wear

14:09

your boots and your flight suit and a

14:11

helmet because that's what you would be wearing

14:13

when you ejected out of the airplane for

14:16

example. You had to demonstrate

14:18

these survival swims and then you had to do

14:20

like a rescue and pull out

14:22

one of your classmates for

14:25

50 yards or something so you

14:27

could keep them alive. You had to drown proof which is

14:29

like the dead man's float on your back and then

14:31

you had to tread water for long periods of

14:33

time including at the end you had

14:36

to have your hands out of the water. So I

14:38

was like, oh man, so it mainly was the swimming

14:40

strokes and all this we had to do that I

14:42

practiced and I was feeling okay

14:44

about it but I was afraid I was going

14:46

to embarrass myself but the first week of work

14:48

was mainly administrative stuff and then on Friday of

14:51

that week before we went home, this

14:53

is the first time our class was all

14:55

together, Jeff Ashby, a Navy pilot who

14:57

was our sponsor, he was from a previous astronaut class

14:59

and he was helping us with our training. He

15:02

says, okay, I want to remind

15:04

everyone, Monday, you know, we're going to

15:06

start your training in earnest and we're going to begin

15:08

with the swim test. And so

15:10

I was like, oh that's great, you know, could it

15:12

be a math quiz? Could we have something else other

15:14

than the swim test? But it's the swim test and

15:17

then he goes on to ask who are the strong

15:19

swimmers in this group? In other words,

15:21

35 of us just came to know each other,

15:23

35 Americans and nine international astronauts so we

15:25

had 44 of us and we had a

15:28

couple Navy qualified divers who, you know,

15:30

raised their hand. Dan Burbank was a

15:32

Coast Guard guy who was a good swimmer, he raised his hand

15:34

so a few people raised their hand and they

15:36

said more important, who are the weak swimmers in this class? And

15:39

so I raised my hand and so did a couple of my classmates and

15:41

they said, okay, everyone else can go

15:43

home but the strong swimmers and the weak swimmers stay after

15:45

class, arrange the time to meet over the

15:48

weekend because the strong swimmers are going to

15:50

help the weak swimmers with their swimming and

15:52

when we go to the pool on Monday, no one leaves

15:56

the pool until everyone passes the test. And

15:59

so that was... kind of like my introduction

16:01

to where things were is that it was going to

16:03

be very much team oriented. If

16:05

you were strong at something, your job was

16:07

to help someone who maybe might be struggling

16:09

with something. And if you were having

16:12

a hard time with something, whatever that might be,

16:14

you needed to admit that you needed help. And

16:16

I think that was more of the message in some ways that

16:18

you need to speak up when you need help, because

16:20

what matters is that the team is successful. We

16:23

all met over the weekend and they

16:25

helped, the strong helped the week and

16:27

I was one of the week and we got

16:29

to the pool on Monday and all this passed

16:31

the test together. So that was my

16:34

first lesson in what the

16:36

attitude, the teamwork attitude was going to be at

16:38

NASA. And that's something that

16:40

I think applies to, still to my everyday life. I

16:43

think of that when you're working in a

16:45

group, you're having trouble, you speak up, how can

16:47

I help you? What matters is that the team

16:49

is successful. Well, what we're seeing

16:51

is the data shows that we now

16:54

feel more isolated than ever due to

16:56

our working from home and everything else

16:58

that comes with that and all the

17:00

technology that we have, that we engage

17:03

with. It puts us in isolation.

17:05

And in the book, when you were going over this part, when

17:08

you recognized that it

17:11

was that you guys were going to be

17:13

there with the better swimmers

17:16

and no one was getting out until everyone

17:18

passed, in the book you

17:20

mentioned about a sense of comfort there knowing

17:22

I got this, these people have my back

17:24

and we're going to be able to do

17:26

this together. We have to

17:29

be able to remember that when we

17:31

are feeling isolated because we

17:33

don't allow ourselves to. It's easy

17:35

to spiral thinking that we're completely

17:38

alone. Yeah, I agree with

17:40

you, John. I think a lot of

17:42

people feel that way. During the pandemic,

17:44

that was something I spoke a lot to audiences

17:46

about feeling isolated. That was

17:49

similar to the feelings you might have in

17:51

space as well that you're out there, especially

17:54

on a space walk, it's you and one other person

17:56

and all of your support is down on the planet.

17:58

And I made a... I made

18:00

mistakes during my space motion. One was really

18:02

bad. I stripped the screw during a repair

18:05

of the Hubble. And there

18:07

was no backup plan for this because it was such a

18:09

simple task. Even I couldn't mess it up.

18:11

But I messed it up. And

18:13

I remember looking down at the planet. Before I fessed

18:15

up to the ground, I kind of leaned out

18:17

of the telescope. I was in a foot restraint so I could

18:19

lean back and take a look at

18:21

Earth. And we were over the

18:24

Pacific Ocean. And I'm in space. And

18:26

I couldn't even imagine a hardware store I could

18:28

go to get help. And it was like,

18:30

who's going to help me now? But I

18:32

reached out to the Mission Control Center. And for, I don't

18:35

know, an hour, between an hour and an

18:37

hour and a half, we tried all kinds of things. And

18:39

then they came up with a solution to fix it, which I never

18:41

thought we were going to be able to fix it. But they came

18:43

up with something. And then I learned later

18:45

about what was going on. I couldn't see them. But

18:48

it was a guy in a back room in Houston that

18:50

had an idea. He called up to the Goddard

18:53

Space Flight Center in Maryland. Then he did a little test

18:55

in a clean room. This is on a Sunday. They're all

18:57

doing this. And they came back with the

18:59

results. And they just talked about it. So it

19:01

was like the whole team sprang into action to help me. I

19:03

couldn't see any of this. And I

19:06

try to recommend to people to reach out

19:08

to their Mission Control Center whenever

19:10

you need help. People are still there. They're there waiting

19:12

to help you, just like you should be there waiting,

19:15

not waiting, but being available to help them

19:18

be Mission Control for others so that when one

19:20

of your teammates needs something, you're there

19:22

for them. And people should know they can reach out to you. And

19:24

it's not going to be a bother. And the

19:26

same in the other direction. Reach out to

19:28

your Control Center when you need them. Don't

19:31

hesitate. And that, I think, was a lesson

19:33

I learned as an astronaut that applies to Earth, but

19:35

even more so in these times, where

19:37

we don't see each other. But the teams are still in

19:39

place. We just don't. We're not in the same

19:41

room, just like the three of us are in different parts of the

19:43

world right now, apparently. And we're still able

19:45

to communicate. Well, mistakes definitely happen.

19:48

And you have a story in the book where

19:50

someone who you look up to makes

19:53

a mistake in front of you. And you're

19:55

new on the job. And

19:57

now you are hearing the mistake,

19:59

but. going along with that person's

20:01

mistake instead of speaking up and

20:04

how important it is to find your

20:06

voice in those moments even if the

20:08

other person who's leading the charge has

20:10

more experience, more knowledge and shouldn't be

20:12

making that mistake. Yeah, that was another

20:14

thing AJ that I thought

20:16

was important about our culture that I learned early

20:19

on and you know people can tell you these things,

20:21

right? You know, oh you should do this and you

20:23

should speak up and all that but

20:26

you know what the book is a series, there's a

20:28

bunch of stories to try to help

20:30

people picture what was happening

20:33

and how important some of these rules or guidelines

20:35

are. So we were encouraged

20:37

to speak up and for me

20:39

what happened was as you mentioned was

20:41

one of my early training flights in the T-38 and

20:45

I was flying with a very experienced pilot and

20:47

as we were taken off our heading was changed

20:49

by the tower and it was

20:51

at night you know when things happen at night is

20:54

usually an indication of it just you know lose

20:56

awareness at night. It's always things are more

20:58

likely to go wrong I think when it's nighttime for

21:00

whatever reason. Can't see as well and lose

21:02

some of that awareness. Anyway, so I put

21:05

the correct heading in the flight computer and

21:07

we rolled down the runway and my

21:09

buddy starts turning in the wrong direction. Now I

21:11

had about three hours in the airplane at this

21:13

point. I had my, this was my fourth time

21:16

inside. I wasn't even sure how to strap in

21:18

and get the oxygen mask on you know and

21:20

everything. So I went, this guy had about eight

21:22

thousand hours or whatever, a thousand hours of experience.

21:25

He was a test pilot with the Air

21:27

Force. Jim Kelly Vegas was

21:29

his name and he was a

21:31

combat veteran. Someone like

21:33

this guy knows what he's doing. What the hell do

21:35

I know? And so as he's going

21:38

in the wrong direction I don't say anything and then

21:40

I was like I must be

21:42

wrong and then the tower

21:44

comes over the communication loop and over

21:46

the headset and it's like you know NASA 922

21:49

turned right now, sharp turn right now and

21:52

he immediately whips the airplane around it's a very maneuverable

21:54

airplane so we're able to get out of the way.

21:56

What it was is that unbeknownst to

21:58

us another airplane had to show up. it up in

22:01

the time that we got our initial clearance and the time we

22:03

reached the runway and we almost had a midair with

22:05

a guy coming in to land. My

22:08

buddy said, what the heck was that? Did he change our heading?

22:11

I go, yeah, I put it right in the flight computer. And

22:13

he goes, you saw me go the wrong direction? You didn't

22:15

say anything? And he said, I thought you knew what you

22:17

were doing. There you go. And that

22:19

was the end of that until we landed about an

22:22

hour later and we came

22:24

down the ladders and of the cockpits. And

22:27

he said, look, Matt, I made a wrong turn

22:29

and that almost got us killed, but you didn't

22:31

speak up and that almost got us killed as well.

22:33

You got to learn to speak up. So that

22:36

I think is really important. And what

22:39

he said he would have done

22:41

and what I found in further times was that

22:43

when you're wrong, it's okay to be wrong. It's better

22:45

to be wrong, speak up and

22:47

be wrong than to stay silent and be

22:49

correct. And then something bad happens. And

22:52

I never did that again. And I, you

22:54

know, hey, especially when you have a close call like

22:56

that, you learn your lesson, but hopefully it doesn't take

22:58

that for people to

23:00

understand that it's important to speak

23:02

up. But it's all I think it's more important

23:05

for the leadership to encourage that. You know, there was,

23:07

you know, and thank you is always a good thing to say in

23:09

the cockpit is what we would say. So if I would have

23:11

told Vegas, hey, you're supposed to be going to heading

23:14

250 and be like, no, no, no, no, he

23:16

would explain it to me. But you know, thanks for speaking

23:18

up is thank you is always a good thing to say

23:20

in the cockpit because sometimes especially new

23:22

people are going to say things that really

23:24

aren't correct. Right. They may have an

23:27

idea that's not going to work or we've already tried

23:29

that, but you don't yell at them. That's

23:31

not the way it was with at NASA. It was, you

23:33

know, you always you always try to encourage them. She says,

23:35

oh, you know, this, we can't do that for this, this

23:37

and this reason. But thank you for bringing that up because

23:39

the next time they might have the good reason. And

23:41

if you react badly to the bad idea, then

23:44

you're not going to hear about the good idea.

23:46

People are going to shut up. I do is

23:48

always important, especially for leadership to encourage

23:50

that. And that was our culture because we

23:53

had to be that way. Or bad things can

23:55

happen like you hit another airplane. But

23:57

I also think it's a good thing to do

23:59

in business. and in life on earth

24:01

is speak up when you have a concern

24:04

and whoever it is that you're talking to should

24:07

appreciate that you took the time to speak

24:09

up and thank you even if you're

24:11

wrong. This

24:13

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where now meets next. For

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residential delivery only. Mike, during that

25:43

story, I couldn't help but thinking about

25:45

all the times that I

25:48

have been in that position where I should have spoken

25:50

up. And usually for myself, what happens

25:53

in that moment is the

25:55

other person, they make their move and

25:57

then I start second guessing myself like,

25:59

oh. Well, they've done

26:01

this before so maybe I'm wrong and and how

26:03

could I be wrong? And

26:06

going back and making sure yeah that

26:08

I have everything together and it comes

26:11

up in the book in the chapter

26:13

about trust Where trust

26:15

begins with trusting the people

26:17

who trained you? Yeah,

26:19

so that you understand and know these

26:21

things so you that then you can

26:24

now trust yourself To

26:26

begin to speak up. Yeah.

26:28

Well, so John Thank

26:30

you for reading the book. That's pretty good synopsis of that

26:32

whole thing. That's I don't I can't think I could do

26:34

it better Thank you Yeah,

26:37

that's what you have to remember in your

26:39

in having confidence. It's hard you

26:41

guys for me. It was like am I ready? I don't know

26:43

if I'm ready to go to space my first flight of special

26:45

is like I don't know what I'm doing I've never been in

26:47

space before and I felt like

26:50

flying in space was For

26:52

me it was like playing in the Super Bowl

26:54

or the World Series or whatever event you can

26:56

think of is a big deal You

26:58

know a rock star playing at Madison Square Garden or

27:00

something like that But I had never even been on

27:02

the field before or on a stay I didn't I

27:04

had to go out there and perform right away I

27:07

never been to space right Train for hours in the

27:09

water tank and and I you know, I didn't

27:11

know how I was doing I was doing okay in the training, but

27:13

how am I going to be in space and I was

27:15

you know I was told hey you're doing fine. We

27:17

have full confidence is why I think The

27:20

leadership and you know some of the people around me

27:22

were kind of detecting because some of the astronauts I

27:24

think I felt the same way. It's kind of normal

27:26

feel that On your on your

27:28

first time in space and you're given a lot of

27:30

responsibility You don't want to mess it up But

27:33

the truth of it is you wouldn't be allowed to

27:35

I wouldn't they wouldn't let me go if

27:37

I wasn't ready They're not gonna roll the

27:39

dice with the Hubble Space Telescope. They were gonna

27:42

do they had confidence in me I just need to

27:44

have confidence in myself So sometimes it might be hard

27:46

to have that confidence in yourself You have to realize

27:48

hey I'm being trained by people who know what they're

27:50

doing and that training could be lots of

27:52

different things It could be a formal training or

27:54

it could just be your life experiences or whatever

27:57

it is I got you to that moment That

28:01

allows you, you've earned the right to

28:03

be there. So trust that training, trust

28:05

the tools, the equipment that you're gonna be using,

28:08

that you understand how it's gonna help you,

28:10

whatever that means. And then whatever the

28:12

equipment might be, in our case it was like

28:14

parachutes and spaceships and so on. And

28:17

then the other one is trust your

28:19

team. We rarely go into things alone.

28:21

And related to what we had said before, it's

28:23

a space flight was an open book test. My

28:26

friend Steve Smith told me that, right

28:28

before my flight, remember, if you need help,

28:30

you ask for it. And that's the way it is a

28:32

lot of times on earth. Like we were saying earlier,

28:35

it's important to know they'll be there for you. And

28:37

those things allowed me to trust myself. Because

28:39

I was like, what do I know? Well,

28:42

as you said, John, the experts are saying I'm

28:44

okay. And they're not setting me up for failure.

28:47

And I think that that was certainly the

28:49

case with Hubble Space Telescope. They were not

28:51

gonna take risks with that important world asset.

28:55

Remember me just not to hurt my feelings. But

28:58

I think that's the way it is even in little things that we

29:00

might think aren't as big deals on earth. But

29:02

they could be big deals for us, right? Because it may not

29:05

be the Hubble Space Telescope, but it might be a

29:07

pitch you're gonna give as an

29:09

entrepreneur or a big meeting or a

29:11

proposal or whatever it might be. And

29:13

you're like, well, what's going on here? Am

29:15

I really, am I okay to do this? Just

29:19

remember those trusts. Trust your gear, trust

29:21

your training, trust your team. And that leads you

29:23

for the big one, which is trust yourself. Well,

29:26

that brings up a very big

29:28

point, which is it takes a lot

29:31

to build trust. And when trust is

29:33

there, you are capable

29:35

of wonderful, amazing things, such

29:37

as going into space and

29:39

coming back in one piece.

29:42

However, as powerful as trust can

29:44

be when it has been built,

29:46

it's also delicate and can easily

29:49

fall apart. And then the story

29:51

about Columbia took years for

29:53

everyone on that team to gain the

29:55

trust back due to that accident.

29:58

So with that, Do you have

30:00

any pointers of what to

30:02

look out for so that the trust that you

30:05

work so hard to build is not subverted or

30:07

undermined? I think the trust is

30:09

there. In our case, you mentioned the space

30:11

shuttle accident. As I said,

30:13

trust your equipment. I remember walking onto

30:16

space shuttle Columbia thinking,

30:18

okay, I know all the workers are really

30:20

diligent and I know they worked really hard

30:23

and this is going to be okay.

30:26

Well, on the next flight of Columbia, it didn't work out

30:28

that well. They took some debris on the

30:30

way up from the external tank foam that came off and

30:32

it put a

30:35

hole in the wing that no one knew about and we

30:37

ended up losing the crew on the vehicle. That was a

30:39

bad day and that happened. It was a horrible worst day

30:41

of my life. I

30:43

think that things are going to happen.

30:47

I don't know if I fully

30:49

appreciated it at the time when it first

30:51

happened, but I started to learn

30:54

of how much people were

30:56

affected by that who were not astronauts.

30:59

People who were not in the line of duty, I

31:01

think, took the accident as bad

31:03

or possibly even worse. They really

31:05

felt responsible for what happened

31:07

compared to the way the astronauts might have felt

31:10

about it. We lost our friends and this

31:12

was not a good – it could have been any of us, but the impression

31:16

I got from the folks who were in the control

31:18

center and in the space shuttle

31:20

program, they felt directly responsible and

31:23

they felt horrible about it. They

31:26

knew that things had a change and when

31:28

that happens, it could

31:31

have affected our trust in them

31:33

with the team and the system,

31:36

but there was no

31:38

sugarcoating anything and a full investigation was

31:40

done and everyone admitted, hey,

31:42

a lot of things were wrong. When you have

31:44

a major disaster like that, it's never one thing.

31:46

It's a series of things,

31:48

both technical and non-technical. There's

31:51

going to be plenty of blame to go around

31:54

and everyone has to be open to hearing what

31:56

happened. Everyone bore some responsibility

31:58

in this. And

32:00

we are going to stick together as a team to

32:03

get through this and fly again safely and finish

32:05

out the things we wanted to do with the

32:07

space shuttle program. And the

32:09

way we reacted, it's not that

32:11

you can't prevent accidents, but even with

32:14

your best efforts, bad stuff is going to happen.

32:16

No one wanted a shuttle accident to happen,

32:18

but stuff happens, right? I mean, you

32:21

never know. It could be a pandemic hits and,

32:23

you know, what are you going to do about

32:25

that, you know, or whatever else

32:27

happens. Things can happen, but it's how

32:29

you react to it. And so I think

32:31

the way we reacted to it with diligence

32:34

to make sure that we understood what

32:36

happened, put things in place to make

32:38

sure it never happened again. And

32:40

everyone came together without pointing fingers, throwing

32:42

people under the bus. And

32:45

I think that's the way the team should react when

32:47

it hits adversity. You know, it's easy to

32:49

be a good team member when everyone's winning

32:52

and high fiving and oh, this is great.

32:54

What happens when you have a bad issue?

32:56

Something happens with the product you're trying

32:58

to sell or the sales

33:01

pitch doesn't go well or a pandemic

33:03

hits or something happens that there's

33:06

nothing you can control about it

33:09

and it just happens. What do you do then?

33:11

Do you start pointing fingers and calling

33:13

people names or do you come together? And I'm really

33:15

proud of the way the team came together. And

33:18

so it tested, I think, the trust

33:20

we talked about, but the way

33:22

we dealt with that problem, I

33:24

think built the team in

33:26

such a way to make it even stronger, built up the team

33:29

to make it even stronger than it was before. I

33:31

think the powerful takeaway in that

33:33

is understanding that finger pointing is

33:36

not only building distrust, but it doesn't

33:38

serve the greater mission. You know, everyone

33:40

involved in that mission was looking for

33:43

success, was working hard for success. No

33:46

one went in purposely making any

33:48

mistake, whether it was technical or

33:50

human error was involved. Not

33:52

so often, finger pointing might absolve us

33:54

from the blame and the guilt, but

33:56

it certainly doesn't foster a great team environment.

34:00

I agree. I am amazed sometimes that sports

34:03

teams where something happens at the last minute

34:06

and they blame the person who made the mistake.

34:08

But if the game is that close at the

34:10

end, if the event is that close at the

34:12

end, there were a bunch of other

34:14

things that happened well before that that put that, you

34:16

know, and I've seen some, I've

34:18

seen sports teams stick together and not blame

34:20

the kicker for missing a field goal. And

34:23

I've seen other stuff where they just say it was

34:25

this guy's fault and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, the

34:27

guy who's saying that is the guy that two

34:30

minutes earlier did something really bad that

34:33

caused that set his buddy up that where

34:35

that mistake wouldn't have mattered if this guy was

34:37

doing his job earlier. So yeah,

34:39

I'm amazed, but I don't think that's a good way for

34:41

that's not a good way for a

34:43

team to behave. You can't you can't do that.

34:45

You have to stick together, not

34:47

only in the good times, but more importantly, in the bad times.

34:50

I think that's the mark of it. You find out who you

34:52

are in the bad times, not in the good

34:54

times. I think that brings a good

34:56

segue into another part of the

34:58

book, where it's

35:00

titled Well, things can get worse. And

35:02

you talk about law.

35:06

And could you tell our audience

35:08

a little bit about who's law,

35:10

please? As a rookie

35:12

spacewalker, I was training in the pool

35:15

one day. And I wanted

35:17

to show everybody how great I was. Yeah,

35:19

I'm the greatest spacewalker. And I was the

35:21

first rookie to get a chance to be

35:23

a spacewalker on Hubble. There were three

35:25

previous Hubble missions, and he always had

35:28

an experienced astronaut who had

35:30

flown in space before. At first it was you

35:32

had to have space walk experience. And then

35:34

he loosened it up a little bit, at least you had been

35:36

a space before. So I was the first

35:38

pure rookie that was going to get a chance to

35:40

spacewalk on Hubble. So I'm trying to alleviate everyone's concerns

35:42

and show how good I am. And moving

35:44

really quickly in the water and we're practicing like we

35:46

would in space, you know, in a big giant pool.

35:49

And we have a tether that

35:51

we're that we that always is attached to us. It's

35:53

a safety tether. In case we come off

35:56

of structure, you start floating around. This thing is like

35:58

a fishing it's got a tension on it's a big

36:00

reel that's on your side, it's going to pull you

36:02

in back to safety. But you don't want to rely

36:04

on that, you know, as you're flipping around

36:06

and this thing is willing in like you're a

36:08

fish. So you don't want, it's not, but it's

36:10

there. It was the last resort kind of thing.

36:13

Anyway, so it also is an obstacle, you know,

36:15

if you don't keep track of it. And I

36:18

got this thing between my legs somehow and I'm

36:20

like, ah crap. Cause it's why I'm floating around

36:22

in the water. And I'm like, this

36:24

is like really a silly bad

36:26

mistake. Let me try to fix it. So

36:28

I tried like kicking in and going on

36:30

my side to get it out from between

36:32

my legs. And it ended up going

36:34

like around my helmet, like down my back, around my

36:36

helmet, and then I see it in front of me

36:39

somehow and it's going around and like moving and I

36:41

see, you know, I was like the tangled in this

36:43

web and I still didn't

36:45

really say anything until someone, one of the

36:47

instructors who's watching this, because there's cameras everywhere.

36:49

Like, Hey, I'm Ash need some help. I

36:51

was like, yeah, I guess I do. And then my buddy

36:53

Jim Newman came over and was really impressed with what I

36:56

was. If I was trying to do it, I couldn't have

36:58

entangled myself. So he kind of

37:00

moved me around like a giant balloon in the water

37:02

and got me untangled and then afterwards

37:04

he says, how the heck did this happen? I go, well, you

37:06

know, I had this, I had one snarl and then I made

37:08

it a lot worse cause I was trying to hide

37:10

it. And he said, you got to remember who's

37:12

law. I go, what's that? And he said, no

37:15

matter how bad things are, you can make it worse.

37:17

You know, you don't want to make a bad

37:20

situation worse. He also said who Gibson also

37:22

said, uh, nothing is, uh, often

37:25

a good thing to do. And

37:27

always a good thing to say. Anything

37:29

of that one. That's so anyway, but

37:31

who gives her the very wise, a wise

37:33

person and, um, chief of the

37:35

astronaut office for a while and beloved by

37:37

everyone. That was a pretty good thing

37:40

to remember when you make a mistake, it

37:42

can get worse no matter how bad it is,

37:44

you know? And you know, you think, and that

37:46

happens and usually strike one could be really bad,

37:49

but it's not strike three yet. But if you

37:51

have, when you make a mistake, I

37:53

mentioned like when I, when I stripped a screw on

37:55

the telescope, I actually like thought

37:57

of Hoot's law, like, okay, this is really bad.

38:00

But if I start losing tools if I puncture my

38:02

space suit if I break something else There's

38:05

no I mean there's no chance anyway with the mistake I

38:07

made but it can oh, you know You think it's really

38:09

bad it can get worse it can always get worse and

38:11

usually that that first thing that happens it's time

38:14

to slow down and recruit help and Then

38:16

not make it worse and I think that

38:19

was something dealing mistakes are gonna be made

38:21

all the time in space I

38:23

made them all the time on earth. I make them

38:25

even more often Because there's

38:27

more free time to make mistakes, I think but

38:29

I make more mistake and but we

38:31

had to learn to deal with them In

38:33

space on earth you think you might but you have to learn to

38:35

do it him on earth, too That's the point right is that we're

38:38

gonna mess up and make mistakes here on earth the

38:42

consequences of another mistake Might

38:44

not be life-threatening like they could be in

38:47

space But still it's it's the be threatening

38:49

to your business you your work or your

38:51

family situation, too You know for having conflict

38:53

in our families even so yeah,

38:56

not hoots law no matter how bad it is

38:59

It could always you can make it worse. It could always

39:01

get worse well in reading

39:03

that chapter the thing that came to my

39:05

mind was How

39:08

we chase perfection and we also have

39:10

this idea of memetic desire Where

39:13

we're trying to recreate these pictures that

39:15

are in our minds and

39:17

for our clients They have

39:20

a lot of very high expectations

39:22

it's whether inner expectations

39:24

that they have for themselves or

39:26

the expectations from other people that

39:28

they put on themselves and When

39:31

it comes to hoots law things aren't

39:34

perfect They get frazzled and then when

39:36

they get frazzled that starts they

39:38

start to beat themselves up and

39:40

then they're get frustrated and that

39:42

begins a Spiral that can

39:45

put them in to a bit of

39:47

a depression over the progress That

39:50

that that they had made and I think

39:52

it's very important to Understand

39:55

that a lot of these picture-perfect

39:58

ideas on our mind are

40:00

they're fiction they're made up and

40:02

to not hold ourselves to these

40:04

these ideas and when

40:07

I was reading the chapter it stuck

40:10

at least it came to me that

40:12

your ego had gotten the way of

40:14

I don't want the other members to

40:16

see that I got this tangled which

40:18

then put you in a rush and

40:22

which made the situation

40:24

worse and all because there

40:26

was something there that you were trying to

40:28

protect either the picture perfect for

40:31

your teammates. Right and

40:35

the the result was not good it's

40:37

slow to have not to make you know don't make it worse

40:40

but also when you're going back to when you need help

40:42

you need to speak up. Mistakes are

40:44

going to be made some

40:46

are small some you know little things you

40:48

forgot to do or messed

40:51

up the tether snarl,

40:53

space shuttle accident, some are huge you

40:56

know yeah but uh so some

40:58

are big some are small they but they're going

41:00

to happen and you have to

41:02

be able to deal with them and so it wasn't

41:04

that you're trying we were never I

41:06

don't think ever John I don't think we're ever

41:08

trying to reach perfection I think

41:11

what we were trying to realize is being

41:13

able to handle mistakes well and

41:16

uh because you're going to make them and so another

41:18

thing I write about is the 30-second rule you're going

41:20

to make a mistake give yourself 30 seconds regret

41:22

beat yourself up and

41:24

then move on you know it's okay to be

41:26

really pissed off at yourself for making a mistake

41:29

but take 30 seconds and that's all the time you're

41:31

going to give yourself to be to be miserable

41:34

because you don't have hours or days to be miserable

41:36

because that takes you out of the game and we

41:38

couldn't do that in space and I would say same thing

41:40

on earth in your business you can't you know kind of

41:42

with your family or your business to take a couple days

41:44

off to be miserable but I used to do stuff

41:46

like that I would be so pissed off in myself when

41:49

something bad would happen that I would you know I'd be

41:51

on my mind and it would kind of check out and

41:53

that's not a good way to to

41:55

operate so I think what we what we learned

41:58

um and still in the ashram office the same

42:00

thing. It was a Woody Holberg's a friend of

42:03

mine who was selected 20 years after actually 21

42:05

years after me he became an astronaut in

42:08

2017 and he was just

42:10

in town. We had a

42:12

downlink with him with my students when he was in space

42:14

and he came back to Columbia and we did

42:17

an event together and the students asked him what was

42:19

the most important lesson you learned as an astronaut and

42:21

I you know I just let him answer and he

42:23

said I learned how to deal with

42:25

my mistakes. You don't you don't have to

42:27

learn how to make mistakes because we all can do

42:29

that on our own but it had to deal with

42:31

them you know and part of it is fessing up.

42:33

I made a dumb move but I need

42:35

help here or else it's going to affect the mission. You

42:37

cannot keep it to yourself. You have to fess

42:39

up. So fess up don't make it worse. 30 seconds

42:42

of regret and let's try to become part of the

42:44

solution. Well yeah I'd like to

42:46

dive into the protocol that you have

42:48

there for the 30-second rule because accidents

42:51

happen, mistakes are made, things don't

42:53

go as planned, you have high

42:55

expectations that you fold. Short of

42:58

and I have seen

43:00

people ruminate on

43:02

these for days to

43:04

weeks sometimes months or years and in

43:06

the book I was so happy to

43:09

see it's like hey we got 30

43:11

seconds of regret and we're moving forward. Now

43:13

for a lot of people they're like

43:16

well 30 seconds that would be

43:18

great if I can get through that but

43:20

what does it entail to move through that

43:22

30 seconds. So could you go through that

43:24

for our audience please. It's okay to be

43:26

disappointed with your mess up the thing you

43:28

mess you're gonna mess things up and

43:31

it's okay to be mad at yourself but to wallow

43:34

in that misery it's not gonna be helpful

43:37

and we did not have even a minute we did

43:39

not have seconds to spare a minute to spare but

43:42

I would argue it's not just in space it's on the ground

43:44

too. I mean life is too precious for you to be

43:46

going through it miserable because of a mistake you made but

43:50

I would hear you know leave mistakes in the past

43:52

let it go flush it all these things but how

43:54

do you do that you know and the way that

43:56

I was able to to be able

43:58

to do that to move on. was

44:01

this 30 second one, my crewmate Megan McArthur

44:03

told me about it, that she

44:05

learned it from CJ Sturkow, who was a

44:07

marine pilot in our office. He

44:09

called it 30 seconds of remorse. Where

44:11

you beat the crap out of you, you

44:13

made a mistake, it's really embarrassing. So you

44:15

take it and you just really let yourself

44:18

have it. I'm the worst astronaut ever. Now

44:20

I'm gonna be known for setting back astronomy

44:22

for years. The textbooks will say we would

44:24

know the age of the universe except Mike

44:26

broke the Hubble Space Telescope. Why

44:28

didn't I think of a different way to

44:30

do this task? Why was I cavalier about the way I

44:33

did it? They should have never assigned

44:35

me to do this. I should have just done simple

44:37

things. They should have never selected me. Don't

44:41

vocalize any of this folks. Just keep it

44:43

to yourself because you'll scare people. It's an

44:45

internal rant and it's set a

44:47

timer for 30 seconds and then when

44:49

you get down to like four seconds

44:52

left just say I'm never

44:54

letting that happen again. It's

44:57

in the past and we're gonna move, we're

44:59

gonna leave it in the past and we're gonna move on. And

45:01

that's what I did when I stripped that screw. I used that

45:03

and I was on the Hubble and I was like, if

45:06

I ever get a chance to do this to continue

45:08

with this spacewalk somehow, if we get around this problem,

45:10

because I still had a lot of work ahead

45:13

of me. I had a hundred and eleven little

45:15

small screws. Those are the ones we were worried

45:17

about and we had backups for those, backup procedures

45:19

for those. These were big screws that I messed

45:21

up with. So I was

45:23

like, alright, the hard part is still to come. So

45:25

if I can get by this, I am not gonna

45:27

be cavalier. I'm gonna make sure I'm seated with the

45:30

right tool. I'm gonna take my time. I just need

45:33

redemption. I need a chance and

45:36

didn't make it worse. Got over it

45:39

and became an active participant in the

45:41

solution and it worked.

45:43

We were able to get around it

45:45

and be successful that day. I'm really

45:47

curious to hear with all this training

45:50

from a young boy having that vision

45:52

of being an astronaut to then in

45:54

college to that night

45:57

before your first launch, the first mission.

46:00

mission, what's going through your

46:02

head, and then also what is that

46:04

moment like when you actually achieve this

46:06

goal that you had set out and

46:08

pass through failures, rejections, worked on your

46:10

eyesight, became a swimmer, everything

46:13

that you put yourself through to that moment to

46:15

be up there in space, and how did it

46:17

line up with what you thought it would, with

46:19

the movies and what we see in media and

46:21

what you imagined it to be? Being

46:26

accepted into NASA, getting a chance, getting

46:29

that opportunity, that's chapter

46:31

one, right? And I think the

46:33

rest of it is what I learned at NASA.

46:35

So it was great to get

46:37

the phone call to be accepted, but then we

46:40

showed up there, and I remember

46:43

Bob Cabana was the chief of the astronaut

46:45

office, the Marine colonel, flown shuttle commander, and

46:47

he was our boss, and he welcomed us,

46:49

and he said something like, we're very happy

46:51

to have you here. We were all dressed

46:53

up, you know, my first day of

46:55

work, we wore a coat and tie, everyone's dressed up. We

46:58

were happy to have all of you here. We're thrilled that you're all

47:00

here, but I want each of you

47:02

to remember, this is our first day of work from

47:05

the boss, I want each of you to remember that

47:07

for every one of you, there

47:09

are thousands of people who would

47:11

exchange places with you this morning in

47:13

a heartbeat, and

47:15

the only difference between you and them

47:19

is that you are more fortunate than they are,

47:22

and that you owe it to them and

47:24

to everyone else around the country or the world to

47:26

do the best you can with

47:28

this opportunity. And so that was it,

47:30

it was like really great to become an astronaut, but

47:33

we hadn't done anything yet. We had to put all

47:35

these principles to work and these things I learned to

47:38

get that flight opportunity like you're describing.

47:40

So it was kind of like just heads down at that

47:42

point, trying to get there. And

47:44

the night before I was very, very excited

47:46

about the whole thing

47:48

and looking forward to it. Got

47:51

a little worried on the launch pad when I actually saw the

47:54

shuttle was ready to go. It was kind of

47:56

frightening, it was a night launch and it was

47:58

the place to desert it because there's fuel in the air. the tank. And

48:01

usually there's a lot of bustling activity,

48:03

but it's deserted and the space shuttles

48:05

brightly lit up with all the support structure. It

48:07

looks like a real no kidding. It's going somewhere.

48:09

It's going to space. Smoke is coming off of

48:12

it just water vapors making these hideous noises like

48:14

screeches. I think it was the cold fuel going

48:16

through the pumps. And I looked up and I

48:18

thought, after all these

48:20

years of dreaming, maybe this wasn't such a good idea, looking

48:23

at that. But that's where the trust came in to

48:25

know you've got to go inside of this thing. And

48:27

once I think about stuff is thinking about stuff is

48:29

always worse than doing it. Right? That's the other thing.

48:31

You can really psych yourself out. So build up the

48:34

trust, remind yourself, get in there and then everything was

48:36

fine. But it really hit me. I

48:38

think AJ was on my

48:40

second spacewalk when

48:43

I had a chance to I think

48:46

kind of soak in a moment. And it

48:49

was a kind of a lull in

48:52

the activity that was going on. And

48:54

I was able to look off to the side and just

48:56

look at the planet. And it

48:58

was so magnificent. The thought that went to my mind

49:00

is, you know, this is a view from heaven. What

49:03

a view this is. And then I thought, no, no, it's more

49:05

beautiful than that. This is what heaven must look like. I

49:08

felt that like I was looking into absolute paradise.

49:10

I cannot believe I don't have to any place

49:12

could be more beautiful than our planet.

49:14

And we get to be here every day. What a great

49:16

place. But just admiring the beauty of

49:19

the planet, you know, zipping around our

49:21

earth at 17,500 miles an

49:23

hour in my, my NASA

49:25

spacesuit with the American flag

49:27

on my arm. And it was like, holy crap, how

49:29

did this happen? I think that was my moment that

49:31

you started. I realized that, well, I'm really

49:33

glad I didn't give up. So yeah,

49:36

that I think was the moment where it all kind

49:38

of came together. And I was so grateful that that

49:41

it all that it all happened because you get accepted, you once

49:43

you get in, you still haven't fallen yet. And, you

49:45

know, you've got to you've got to get on the

49:47

get on a mission, hopefully, and get something to do

49:50

that you think is important. And it never

49:52

really lets up. But that was where it kind of hit home

49:54

that all right, it was this is

49:56

pretty cool. It was worth it. Mike,

49:58

is there anything you want to tell the flat earth

50:00

society. Not yet. I'm

50:03

trying something else to be worried about. I

50:06

mean, I got a feeling there's not many in

50:08

your viewers. Are there that are flat earthers? I

50:10

don't think so. Yeah, I've seen them argue

50:13

online. I'm like, I can't believe this is

50:15

not. There's so many. I mean, it's a

50:17

million things to worry about. I mean, really,

50:19

why are we worried about that? You

50:21

know, no, it's the place is round. Very

50:24

good. Our home is we have a living around

50:26

home. That's flat. You're gonna

50:28

fall off the edge. I was not even gonna do

50:30

it. I mean, you know, yeah, no. Now,

50:33

was there anything that surprised you about

50:35

that experience of being up in

50:37

the shuttle and on the mission? I think one reason,

50:40

one thing was I felt I was surprised at how

50:42

well prepared I was. I don't know if that happens

50:44

to people, too. You know, we think something's going to

50:46

be really, oh, am I ready for this? And then, you

50:49

know, the work went,

50:51

you know, kind of went. It

50:54

felt now even making the mistakes. I

50:56

mean, because we had worked with the control center and

50:58

even though we didn't have that problem before because no

51:01

one thought it could, that I could do

51:03

that, to strip that screw, for example, and

51:05

other things that happen. We had

51:07

worked with so many other problems in practice that we just

51:09

were able to engage it. It's like, you know, going down

51:11

to take an exam in college or high school, something like,

51:14

oh, this is what I didn't know. This is going to

51:16

be on a test. But hopefully, you're prepared

51:18

doing other problems and you can kind of

51:20

apply that same technique. So that's what

51:22

we did. So I was amazed at, you know, how

51:24

comfortable I felt and just

51:27

how beautiful it was up

51:29

there. And even though I've been

51:31

prepared for that, there's nothing I can really prepare for the

51:33

beauty of the Earth. They can

51:35

prepare us to do our work. And

51:38

that's why I try to, you know, there's a chapter in a

51:40

book about being amazed of how beautiful

51:42

our planet is from up there. But we can engage

51:44

it on the ground, too, you know, wherever we are.

51:47

You know, you're out there in a beautiful

51:49

place in California, John's, in a beautiful place

51:52

down in South America. But you know, we're

51:54

in New York City and there's a beauty

51:56

to all of it. And sometimes

51:58

it's natural beauty. Sometimes it's... the buildings around us

52:00

or the people or whatever it

52:02

might be. And I think that it's important to

52:04

take that little time out. And so I was

52:07

surprised by the beauty of the planet that I

52:09

saw, but it stayed with me. And

52:11

we are living in a paradise. I didn't know I

52:13

would react that way, but that's the way I felt

52:15

that we are so lucky to be here. And

52:18

you're now a member of a very

52:20

unique club, extraordinary club

52:22

of astronauts. Tell

52:25

us a little bit about the camaraderie after the missions

52:27

are over. And now at this stage

52:29

of your career, it sounds like you're interacting

52:31

with young astronauts and there's training. So what

52:34

is life after being in space like? It's

52:36

actually pretty good. I

52:39

enjoy what I'm doing now. I

52:42

like telling the story of space and

52:44

NASA gave me

52:46

opportunities. I think a lot of my fellow astronauts

52:48

weren't that inclined to

52:50

talk to people about what was going. I mean, it was part

52:52

of our job, but I really liked it. I thought it was

52:55

a very important job part of it. And I like

52:57

interacting with people. And now

52:59

I had something that they were interested in finding

53:01

out about. I mean, you guys are having me

53:03

on your podcast for heaven's sakes, right? Because I

53:06

got to do this cool space stuff, right?

53:08

So it's given me the excuse to be able to

53:12

do things like this, to share these things. That's why I

53:14

wanted to write the book is I'd learned so much in

53:17

leadership and perseverance and

53:19

teamwork. And I was

53:21

kind of shocked after I left NASA of how much

53:23

of those rules that we had, these rules of engagement,

53:25

more or less, the way we operate and the way

53:27

we took care of each other, how

53:30

much of it applies to everyday life and

53:32

especially to business. Now I do a lot

53:34

of relatively a lot of of keynote speaking

53:36

to various businesses and they're

53:38

having concerns about mergers and teamwork

53:40

and people working together and

53:43

perseverance and dealing with bad news

53:45

and change and AI and all

53:47

these things, which we had

53:49

a certain way of engaging the world

53:51

when problems occurred and when new things

53:53

came up and programs change and bad

53:55

news happened and whatever that those

53:58

rules that we had that work for us in space. because

54:00

we had to be safe and successful also

54:02

apply to business. So now I

54:05

enjoy doing that. The book is part of that, of course,

54:07

and getting a chance to talk to you guys. I really

54:09

appreciate it. And I really liked doing that

54:11

and I teach at Columbia. So

54:13

it's been, it's been, it's been fun

54:15

in that regard. I do some TV

54:17

here. So NASA gave me some

54:19

opportunities to be on like the big bank

54:21

theory TV show. Yeah. I got to be

54:23

on that a few times, which was cool.

54:25

And it just, it,

54:27

to me, it was another way of, of

54:29

being involved with the space program. And, uh,

54:32

you mentioned like the getting to know

54:34

the, the guys who had left. What was, I didn't,

54:37

there was a lot, I met Neil Armstrong and got

54:39

to know him when I was an astronaut and Alan

54:41

Bean and John Young, some of those old timers. But

54:44

I've gotten to meet a lot more since I, since

54:46

I left. I think what it is is now being

54:48

like outside. You kind of jealous of

54:50

the people that are still doing it. So it's like, okay,

54:52

you don't look at different clubs, you know, it's like, God,

54:54

those guys, what do they know? You know, they're spoiled now.

54:57

They don't have to fly a space shuttle. They

55:00

can go to sleep during a launch. There's not nothing. It's

55:02

all I've met. It's not true. But, you know, I think

55:04

a lot of it is that I still like to hear

55:06

from, like I mentioned Woody and some of the other folks

55:09

out of steel that I've gotten to know that are friends

55:11

of mine. I'm thrilled for them. So it's kind of fun

55:13

to be cheering them on. It really is and be

55:15

happy for what they're doing and also

55:17

kind of being this, this kind of

55:19

like a, kind of an offshoot of the, because

55:22

a lot of us are doing stuff like this, you know, a

55:24

lot of us are writing books and, and

55:26

a lot of us are teaching classes we share,

55:28

don't tell my students, but we share, you know,

55:30

we share information on classes, on every week we

55:33

teach around the country. We all try to

55:35

help each other. It's, it's a, the

55:37

reason it's a great club is because there's really nothing

55:39

we went into for each other. And that

55:41

goes even for some of the new folks who I don't know if they're

55:43

coming to New York and I get a chance to meet them, you

55:45

know, they're my brother or sister, it

55:47

doesn't, it is no questions asked. And,

55:49

uh, that is, that is

55:52

what makes it nice. And I think, again, that, those are, those

55:54

are things that don't have to be unique to being an astronaut.

55:56

It can be that for any, for any organization

55:58

that you have. You have this bond between

56:01

each other and a respect for each other and a love

56:03

for each other really That you know i'm

56:05

gonna this person is you know is one of my people

56:07

i'm gonna try to help them And so

56:09

it was there I used to get advice on How

56:11

to fly the airplane or the spaceship or do a

56:13

spacewalk when I was at nasa now that stuff doesn't

56:15

really i'm just kind of curious What a way to

56:17

doing it now But uh now

56:19

we have different conversations About

56:21

maybe how to teach or you know different uh

56:25

Different things to write about whatever might be

56:28

story of speaking or whatever. So it's a

56:30

different it's a whole different thing But it's

56:32

it's still pretty cool. It's just different. I

56:34

wouldn't say it's Better or

56:36

worse. It's Not as cool You

56:40

know when I knew that was up, you know, that was never

56:42

going to happen again I don't really know you can get anything

56:44

cooler than being an astronaut But but it's

56:46

not it's not bad being a former

56:48

astronaut Thank you again for

56:50

stopping by we love the book and our last

56:52

question for each and every one of our guests

56:55

is What is your x-factor? What do you think

56:57

makes you unique and extraordinary mike? What

56:59

made me successful? I think really look at the core

57:01

values I would say I have a

57:03

pretty good work ethic and I learned that Most

57:06

likely from my my parents who worked really hard.

57:08

My dad worked from new york city fire department

57:11

My mom was a stay-at-home mom, but very smart and

57:13

was Doing something all the

57:15

time and and how important it was to

57:17

do work In service of others my

57:19

mom ended up when once we were grown she ended up

57:21

working in a in a senior center

57:23

helping out there Was always doing something

57:26

that's in service of others and that work ethic of

57:28

doing something that's bigger than you Whatever

57:30

that working for an organization working with other

57:32

people to do something together like

57:36

for example in the fire department or in the astronaut

57:38

program or in the companies I speak to it's the

57:40

same thing Where's the pharmaceutical company

57:42

or startup or whatever? There's that camaraderie

57:44

that teamwork? Um, so

57:46

I think that work ethic was important. I

57:49

think the the perseverance of not giving up

57:52

Um always trying that That

57:54

no matter what I would keep I would keep

57:56

applying until this day because my definition of success

57:58

is not necessarily meeting goal but at

58:00

least continuing to try because that's all

58:03

that you can control. And

58:05

I think the other thing is being a team player

58:07

is really important. So I'm

58:09

giving you those three. I

58:11

think that that combination is kind of what we look for

58:13

in astronauts and I think that's what also makes people

58:16

successful in other things. And

58:18

not giving up is really important. I've

58:21

never met a successful person who's never failed. Successful

58:25

people, those that don't let failure stop them, right?

58:28

And there's examples of that. Even those

58:30

with early success or have

58:33

some early luck, in

58:35

order to continue that, everything needs

58:37

to be built organically. And a

58:39

lot of times you see those

58:41

people really deal

58:43

with reality in a harsh way

58:45

because they didn't have to beat

58:48

those challenges in order to reach

58:50

that place. They

58:52

were lucky enough to have the

58:54

lightning strike and then what came

58:56

after that is some real floundering

58:58

and it can

59:01

take a toll on somebody as well.

59:03

Yeah, you can't be brittle and I see that a

59:06

lot with my students as well because

59:08

a lot of students get to come. They've been

59:10

very successful in high school and

59:13

you hit walls. I hit walls when I was a little

59:15

kid. Eighth grade was a huge

59:17

wall, earth science. I got a D in

59:19

earth science. Mrs. Katz was going for a

59:21

marking period. That way I made it to

59:23

space. So Mrs.

59:26

Katz wasn't thinking this kid's going to grow up to be

59:28

an astronaut. I was like, just find something

59:30

else. Maybe work in the deli or

59:32

something. That's a good job too. But find something

59:34

else, my kid. But

59:37

that was my first lesson in needing to change

59:39

the way I could do things. So I

59:42

was lucky that I had a lot of failures at an early

59:44

age. Nothing

59:46

ever worked the first time for me and that

59:48

was a blessing looking back on it. Absolutely. Because you

59:50

were definitely going to hit that wall and

59:53

things are going to happen. If you're not, it's because

59:55

you're not challenging yourself probably

59:57

or who knows, maybe just really super lucky.

1:00:00

Well, that's certainly one of the most

1:00:02

valuable lessons from moonshot and we

1:00:04

encourage all of our listeners to read the book Where

1:00:06

can they find out more about you? You're speaking in

1:00:08

the book. My website is Mike Massimino

1:00:11

comm You can reach out to me there The

1:00:13

book is available just about everywhere that you

1:00:15

might want to buy a book They

1:00:17

also you can follow me on social me as the first guy

1:00:19

to tweet from space So you can find me on Twitter or

1:00:21

whatever they call it now the thing that used to be Twitter

1:00:24

Instagram Facebook LinkedIn

1:00:27

all that stuff you can find me there too. Thank

1:00:29

you Mike right on. Thank you. Thanks guys

1:00:42

This week's shout out comes from Kevin who

1:00:44

wanted to write and tell us how the

1:00:46

x-factor accelerator has helped him in his new

1:00:48

role At work. I wanted to

1:00:50

share how the artichoke x-factor accelerator changed

1:00:53

things for me Especially in

1:00:55

my new role at work I

1:00:57

was stepping into a new role and I

1:00:59

knew I was qualified my training got me

1:01:01

this role But I wanted

1:01:04

to make an impact and that's when

1:01:06

I discovered the x-factor accelerator the

1:01:09

x-factor accelerator Helped me

1:01:11

not just adapt but thrive in my

1:01:13

new role the tools

1:01:15

and strategies that I gained were

1:01:17

like secret weapons boosting my confidence

1:01:20

and Improving my communication skills and

1:01:22

helping me navigate complex

1:01:24

social situations It's

1:01:27

incredible how this program unlocked my potential.

1:01:29

I found myself leading

1:01:31

discussions Making impactful decisions

1:01:33

and being noticed for all the

1:01:35

right reasons and the best part.

1:01:38

It wasn't just about work It's spilled

1:01:40

over into every aspect of my life.

1:01:42

If you're ready to shine in your

1:01:44

career This is it the

1:01:47

artichoke x-factor accelerator isn't just a

1:01:49

course it's a career Accelerator

1:01:52

trust me. It'll take you places

1:01:55

that you've never thought possible Visit

1:01:58

the artichoke.com/x-factor today

1:02:01

and get ready to ace

1:02:03

your new role. Your success

1:02:05

story starts here. Alright,

1:02:08

I love hearing that Kevin and it

1:02:10

was great and amazing and fun working

1:02:12

with you. If you listen this

1:02:15

far my guess it's because you want

1:02:17

more out of life and make the

1:02:19

right decisions to succeed in work, love,

1:02:21

and life. If that's the case then

1:02:23

join us the Art of Charm team

1:02:25

and hundreds of people just like you

1:02:27

who are experiencing breakthrough conversations, supercharging their

1:02:29

confidence, making better decisions, and growing an

1:02:31

incredible network inside our world famous X

1:02:33

Factor Accelerator program. The X Factor

1:02:35

Accelerator is where high achieving like-minded people

1:02:37

meet, strategize, and unlock your hidden X

1:02:40

Factor to make sure that you get

1:02:42

the most out of life's opportunities and

1:02:44

unlock those doors keeping you from success.

1:02:47

We start every month with an

1:02:49

intense goal-setting strategy session so you

1:02:51

have a personalized plan of attack

1:02:53

and remove decision fatigue from the

1:02:55

equation. Weekly implementation sessions with opportunities

1:02:58

to practice your conversation skills, rapport

1:03:00

building, supercharging your charisma through powerful

1:03:02

communication, and unlock the charm to

1:03:04

attract the right people into your

1:03:06

life. Imagine what you can

1:03:08

accomplish with coaching and mentorship with

1:03:10

the Art of Charm. What are

1:03:13

you waiting for? Join us today

1:03:15

at unlockyourxfactor.com. Alright, now

1:03:17

if you have gotten value from

1:03:19

our show head on over to

1:03:21

your favorite podcast player and rate

1:03:23

and review our podcast.

1:03:26

It will mean the world to us and it helps others find

1:03:29

the show. Alright, now

1:03:31

before we head out a

1:03:33

huge thank you to our

1:03:36

producers Eric Montgomery and Michael

1:03:38

Harrold. Go out there guys

1:03:40

and have an epic week!

1:03:53

I need you to be a good boy. I

1:03:57

need you to be a good boy. m

1:04:00

Movement People