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today at unlockyourxfactor.com. Welcome

1:23

to the Articharm podcast where we break

1:25

down the science of powerful communication and

1:28

winning mindsets so you have the cheat

1:30

code to succeed with people. Every episode

1:32

is jam-packed with actionable steps to unlock

1:34

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up with us each week by listening to

1:39

interviews with the best in business, psychology, and

1:41

relationships. We distill thousands of hours of research

1:43

in the most effective tools and the latest

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science so you can start winning today. Let's

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face it, in order to be seen and

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heard, your communication needs to cut through the

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noise and we're going to show

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you how. I'm AJ, Successfully Recovered

1:57

Introvert, Entrepreneur, and Self-Development Junkie. I'm

2:00

Johnnie Zubak, former touring musician, promoter, rock and

2:02

roller, and co-founder here at The Art of

2:04

Charm. And for the last 15 years,

2:07

we've trained thousands of top performers

2:09

and teams from every background. We have

2:11

dedicated our lives to teaching men

2:13

and women all they need to know

2:15

about communication, networking, and relationships. You

2:17

shouldn't have to settle for anything less

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than extraordinary. All

2:23

right, let's kick off today's show. Today we're

2:25

talking with Samuel T. Wilkinson, a professor of

2:28

psychiatry at Yale University. Sam also

2:30

serves as an associate director of the Yale

2:32

Depression Research Program. His articles have

2:34

been featured in The New York Times, Washington

2:36

Post, and The Wall Street Journal, and his

2:38

latest book, Purpose. What evolution and human nature

2:40

imply about the meaning of our existence is

2:42

coming out March 5th. And we're excited

2:44

to talk with him about it. Sam

2:46

discusses the duality of human nature and

2:49

how that can help us unlock our

2:51

purpose, the science of free will and

2:53

what it says about the good life, how

2:55

marriage and monogamous relationships shape our

2:57

overall well-being, and the clues

3:00

in the latest science of evolution to

3:02

our purpose. This is a fascinating discussion that

3:04

blends the latest science with modern religion to

3:06

help us understand ourselves at a deeper level.

3:09

Welcome to the show, Sam. So great to

3:11

have you. I know when a lot of

3:13

us think about purpose, we often default to

3:15

spirituality for our answers. So Johnny and I

3:18

were both really fascinated around your delve into

3:20

the science behind purpose. We'd love to

3:22

hear a little bit of the backstory of how this book came together for

3:24

you. So

3:27

this book, I wrote this basically

3:29

out of, because of an existential

3:31

crisis I had when I was a medical

3:33

student. I was studying, I

3:35

went to medical school in Baltimore at

3:37

Johns Hopkins. And for whatever reason, at

3:40

this time in my life, I

3:42

was really troubled with the implications of

3:44

science, in particular the theory of evolution,

3:48

that seemed to be, for my perception,

3:50

at least in conflict with the

3:53

sense that I had, that most of us

3:55

have, that life has value and meaning and

3:57

purpose. And I laugh about it now. a

4:00

particular quote from a

4:03

professor many decades ago

4:05

in the mid-20th century who wrote, "'In

4:08

the inevitable march of evolution, life

4:10

is of profound unimportance, a mere

4:12

eddy in the primeval slime.'" And

4:14

that just kind of, you know,

4:16

was like, oh, nothing matters. Is

4:21

this really what biology

4:23

and science more

4:25

broadly implies about human

4:28

nature and our existence?

4:31

Well, I know in my studying of

4:33

evolution in undergrad, a

4:35

lot of it was centered around the randomness.

4:37

And I think for many who look

4:40

at and think about evolution, it does

4:42

feel random, purposeless, and

4:46

up to chance. And you argue that actually there's

4:48

a lot of science behind the fact that it's

4:50

not as random as many of us think. What

4:53

is going on in evolution that would point

4:55

us in the direction that maybe there is

4:57

a higher order? That's a great point because

4:59

that was something that was kind of like,

5:02

you know, are we really just tens

5:05

of thousands of intricate molecular

5:07

accidents that somehow came

5:09

together? And there's

5:11

lots of good data and arguments these days

5:13

that that's not necessarily the case.

5:15

A lot of this work, probably more than

5:17

any other person, this is the work of

5:19

a biologist named Simon Conway Morris. He

5:22

is at the University of Cambridge. And he has noticed

5:25

patterns throughout nature that

5:28

many creatures develop the

5:30

same things independently over and over

5:32

and over and over again. So

5:35

maybe just take a couple examples. So

5:37

birds, bats, and butterflies, they all have

5:40

wings and the capacity for flight. But

5:42

biologists tell us that through the long course of evolution, you

5:45

know, their most common

5:47

recent ancestor did not have flight

5:50

or wings. And so they

5:52

each independently developed this disability.

5:56

You know, as another example, when you look at a shark

5:58

and you look at a dolphin, I don't They

6:00

look really, really similar. Someone

6:03

who doesn't have any knowledge of biology would

6:05

think, oh, they're very closely related.

6:09

Well, that's not the case. A dolphin is a mammal. It

6:12

has a skeleton, a bone, a shark, is a

6:14

fish. It has a skeleton of cartilage. A

6:17

dolphin, they

6:19

think that the ancestors of dolphins

6:21

were land-dwelling and somehow migrated back

6:23

into the water. They each have

6:25

this body shape that is extremely

6:29

similar. Another example

6:31

is eyes. We

6:34

have eyes and the estimate

6:36

from biologists is that eyes have evolved

6:38

independently about 40 different times. You

6:41

get the sense that there is a pattern

6:43

here. It's not just one thing after another,

6:46

but that there are these principles,

6:48

these high-order principles that are constraining

6:50

evolution to go in

6:53

certain ways and not others. With

6:56

that conclusion, so looking at it as

6:58

not random, how do we draw that

7:00

back to human purpose? Because I think

7:03

for many of us, it feels currently

7:05

that science is almost pitted against religion

7:07

and for some, science has become a

7:09

bit of a religion. I'm

7:12

curious how you now, taking this

7:14

view and evolving yourself around the

7:16

viewpoint of evolution, how you can

7:18

take that and bring it to

7:20

me and Johnny sitting here and

7:22

finding our own purpose. Yeah.

7:26

Yeah. That's one part of the equation. There

7:28

were two major things about evolution

7:30

that bothered me. One was the randomness piece.

7:35

To be intellectually honest, just

7:37

saying it's not random doesn't

7:40

necessarily cut it. By

7:43

the way, Richard Dawkins, who's

7:45

probably our generation's most outspoken atheist, would

7:47

agree with this. In fact,

7:49

he proved this point when he

7:51

asked one of his colleagues. He said,

7:53

can you think of anything that has

7:55

evolved only once and his friend can only think of a

7:58

handful of times. so

8:00

far is not in any way go against what

8:03

is pretty much mainstream

8:05

thinking in evolutionary biology.

8:08

But that doesn't, again, prove, okay, we have

8:10

some purpose. It could just be the

8:13

cold and different universe that has laws. So

8:15

to kind of continue a search for is

8:18

there action and overarching purpose and meaning to

8:20

our existence, we got to turn

8:22

to human nature. And

8:25

this relates to another part of what

8:27

I thought, at least before I

8:29

really delved into the details,

8:33

this was another part of evolution that was kind

8:35

of like, this doesn't seem right to me. And

8:37

it had to do with what it implies about

8:40

human nature. Charles Darwin published

8:42

his most influential book, The

8:44

Origin of Species, in 1859. A

8:46

couple years later, another biologist coined this

8:49

phrase, survival of the fittest.

8:52

Everyone's heard of it. And biologists

8:55

don't tend to use that term too much

8:57

today, but it is somewhat

8:59

instructive. And it also

9:01

kind of gets to this sense that

9:03

a lot of people who don't have

9:06

much training or understand this that they

9:08

think, okay, evolution implies that we're selfish,

9:10

that we're, you know, aggressive and greedy

9:12

and so forth. And if

9:15

that's true, that's kind of a pretty

9:17

depressing view of human nature and a

9:19

bitter pill to swallow. Going

9:21

back to Richard Dawkins, sorry, not to pick

9:24

on him too much, but you know, probably

9:26

his most famous book is called The Selfish

9:28

Gene. And most of

9:30

the book is not necessarily about selfish behavior,

9:32

but it's an interesting title. But

9:34

in the first pages of that book, he says

9:37

something to the effect that,

9:39

look, if you're trying to build a good

9:42

society, one in which people

9:44

interact and cooperate, you're not going to get

9:46

any help from biology because we are born

9:48

selfish. It turns

9:50

out that it's more complicated than that.

9:52

And I think anyone who observes human

9:54

nature recognizes, well, people aren't

9:56

just selfish. They also have a capacity to

9:59

interact and... ways that are

10:01

really altruistic, selfless.

10:03

Nature seems to have shaped us

10:05

in ways in which we have

10:08

both capacities. We have a

10:11

deep capacity for selfishness, but also altruism.

10:14

This seems to be a cruel kind

10:16

of twist of fate. This is one of the

10:18

reasons that life is such a struggle

10:21

because in a very real

10:23

way, we are pulled in

10:25

different directions. If we

10:27

look at other animals, where

10:30

does altruism come into play? I think

10:32

a lot of us view other animals

10:34

as entirely selfish and survival of the

10:36

fittest. But humans seem to have been

10:39

evolving in a direction where altruism is

10:41

actually rewarded as we're in tight-knit, close

10:43

communities and our populations continue to grow.

10:46

You particularly see this in families, but also

10:48

there's a whole group of animals that

10:50

are sometimes called eusocial. These are things

10:52

like ants and bees. They

10:55

behave in incredibly cooperative ways. We

10:59

rival them with our level of

11:01

cooperation. I wouldn't say it's just

11:03

humans because there's lots of examples

11:05

from the natural world

11:09

where creatures interact

11:11

in ways that are altruistic.

11:13

It's not totally unique to

11:15

humans. You're putting your finger on this

11:18

debate that has gone on about,

11:20

are we just advanced animals or are we

11:22

different? I think it's a bit of a

11:24

false dichotomy because, yes, we are different in

11:27

our abilities and in

11:29

degrees. But if you differ

11:31

so much in a degree, it's a totally different

11:33

thing. I think it's a little bit of a

11:36

silly debate to take because clearly, we're

11:38

very different than animals. No

11:40

other animal can make cell phones

11:42

or send a creature to the moon

11:45

or perform heart surgery, but

11:47

there are a lot of shared

11:49

characteristics that we have. Hopefully, I've

11:52

answered your question a little bit. I

11:54

am interested to know how you view

11:56

the duality of those two forces.

11:58

There's a few examples. examples of this in

12:01

the book that you give, not just

12:03

altruism and selfishness, but certainly if

12:05

we think about some of our family

12:07

or friends or colleagues, we can definitely

12:09

identify the selfish and we can definitely

12:11

identify the altruistic. How do

12:14

we split the difference and what might be going on

12:16

there in terms of our decision making? Yeah.

12:19

Well, what I think is I think that we

12:21

all have capacities of each within us and

12:24

that there are certain frameworks that are going to

12:26

help us to bring

12:28

out one versus the other. There's

12:31

a psychologist, Jonathan Haidt, you may have

12:33

heard of him. He writes

12:35

a lot. He's got a wonderful metaphor that

12:37

I think is really instructive

12:39

to this. He has

12:41

this metaphor that he calls of the rider and

12:43

the elephant. That's how he

12:46

describes human nature, that we

12:48

do have control, but

12:50

we're kind of like the deliberate part

12:53

of our decision making processes like this

12:55

person who's riding an elephant. As long

12:57

as the elephant doesn't have

12:59

a desire of his own, we

13:01

can tell the elephant which way to go. If

13:04

the elephant really wants to do something, we're kind

13:07

of powerless to pull it back and rein it

13:09

in the other way. I

13:11

think this is a really good metaphor for human

13:13

nature because there are certain contexts in

13:15

which that altruism is more likely

13:18

to flourish and another

13:20

context in which jealousy or

13:23

selfishness or something else tends

13:26

to predominate. Identifying

13:29

those contexts, I

13:31

think, is a really important kind of

13:33

social goal and goal of social

13:35

science. Free will is a

13:38

highly debated topic, but at the same time, it's

13:40

kind of at the root of what

13:44

we see as human beings. Intrinsically,

13:48

the way we view each other, we

13:51

see each other as free and autonomous

13:54

beings. There's something about it

13:56

that just seems to be

13:58

fundamental. A lot of philosophy and

14:00

scientists have wrestled with this issue for a long time.

14:03

There was a scientist, fairly well-known scientist,

14:05

Robert Sapolsky, who came out with a

14:07

book in the fall of 2023, basically

14:10

saying that, yeah, free will is just an illusion,

14:12

blah, blah, blah. So

14:14

I take this head

14:16

on, and I think there's good data

14:18

to suggest that he is not

14:21

quite right. I agree with him

14:23

that there are lots of things that factor into the

14:25

decisions that we make, but that

14:27

doesn't mean that things are

14:30

100% determined beforehand, that

14:32

this conversation that we're having right

14:35

now is not inevitable, and

14:37

it was not somehow pre-written

14:39

or preordained into the

14:42

Big Bang. So

14:45

happy to dig into kind of what

14:47

evidence suggests that. The

14:49

religious aspect of free will is

14:51

certainly not determined either, even

14:55

within Christianity,

14:58

there are those sects that believe that

15:00

you're just going to live out God's

15:02

plan, and then there are

15:04

those in certain sects of

15:06

Christianity that are like, no, you do

15:08

have free choice and free

15:11

will, and your actions are

15:13

going to determine your result.

15:17

So even in the religious

15:19

aspect, it's certainly not. Correct,

15:22

correct. And I think what you're referring

15:24

to probably dates back to John Calvin and this notion

15:26

that whatever happens is

15:28

God will, and how can God be

15:31

all-powerful if we also have free choice

15:33

and that sort of thing. So this

15:36

book, as you've noted, there's a

15:38

deep kind of religious

15:41

implication to it. I mostly

15:43

kind of shy away from delving into

15:45

theology, but just trying

15:47

to appeal to the

15:50

sense that most people have

15:52

that life has value and meaning and so

15:54

forth, and that there is

15:56

some sort of higher purpose or higher

15:58

power. Science says,

16:01

my interpretation of science, there are two things.

16:03

When you talk about free will, inevitably

16:06

you have to come up to a

16:08

boring but necessary task

16:11

of defining your terms. When

16:14

we talk about free will, some people mean one

16:16

thing, some people mean another thing. For

16:19

me, at least, it's built into the

16:21

term itself, that there are some actions

16:23

that are not

16:27

deterministically tied to

16:30

the past. There's some wiggle room

16:32

in the cause and effect relationship

16:34

that is so important

16:36

to how we often view

16:39

the world. The other part

16:41

is that the will part is that

16:43

we can, with our thoughts, control our

16:46

behaviors and our actions. I think

16:48

there's good scientific evidence that

16:51

both of those propositions hold,

16:53

that behavior, even

16:55

in relatively simple organisms. For

16:59

instance, in one experiment, biologists

17:01

have a leech. The

17:04

leech can respond in one of two different ways

17:07

to a stimulus. It can either swim or

17:09

it can crawl. They'll

17:11

set up the experiment to where the conditions are

17:13

exactly the same, but they can't predict,

17:15

is the leech going to swim or crawl?

17:17

They'll do it. It's a probabilistic

17:20

thing. They'll say, well, 60% of

17:22

the time, it'll be one thing. 40% will

17:24

do another. They'll do experiments

17:26

with other organisms like a worm

17:28

or a cockroach, something like

17:30

that. There seems to

17:32

be this unpredictability about it that,

17:35

no matter what, if you control

17:38

the conditions exactly the

17:40

same way, even with the

17:42

same organism, it will behave in different

17:44

ways. As

17:47

you get to humans, it becomes more and more

17:49

complex. My logic is

17:51

that, look, if these simple organisms behave

17:53

in ways that are fundamentally

17:55

indeterministic, do we really think that

17:57

humans are going to be full of humans?

18:00

deterministic. And I think that's kind of

18:02

a relatively, you know,

18:04

straightforward conclusion that we're not

18:07

deterministic. I think we have to look

18:09

at it in a species

18:11

aspect as well. I

18:13

mean, time plays

18:16

a role. I mean, when we

18:18

look at it at an individual level,

18:20

that is certainly different from a group

18:24

level, and then from a

18:26

group level to a

18:28

civilizational level.

18:31

And so who's to say,

18:34

like, what aspects of free will

18:36

are we going to measure? You're

18:38

going to get different answers from

18:40

an individual level to

18:42

a group or civil mental relational level.

18:45

So that makes it incredibly difficult because if you're

18:47

going to argue one, I'm like, okay, well, let

18:50

me argue on the individual level and show you

18:52

why that doesn't work here.

18:55

So again, that brings the

18:57

disconnect and all the confusion of, okay,

18:59

well, then we have to set and

19:01

define what we're going to discuss

19:03

and what that means. We're not going

19:05

to be able to agree on anything. You're

19:08

right. You know, that behavioral tendencies can

19:10

emerge at different levels. So if you're

19:12

talking about the way one organism behaves

19:15

versus like a family or even a

19:17

group or social, you know, larger social

19:19

group of organisms, there

19:22

may be, you know, different patterns and principles

19:24

that apply. So it's a very

19:26

complex concept.

19:28

It's a fascinating one. So looking back

19:31

at this human nature and its role

19:33

in purpose, there are a

19:35

couple other examples that you give in the book of

19:37

this duality. So we talked a little bit

19:40

about selfishness and altruism, but

19:42

one that comes up a lot, and certainly, John

19:44

and I talk a little bit about dating in

19:47

particular, is this idea of

19:49

monogamy and promiscuity. And we're

19:52

seeing now

19:54

a rise in secularism. We're seeing

19:57

along with that a rise in

19:59

polyamory and some alternatives to monogamy

20:01

and I'm curious how you view that

20:03

duality when it comes to love and

20:05

lust in humans and how that might

20:08

actually unlock purpose in us. All

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and use code charm at checkout. Getting

22:21

right to the heart of it, are we? It's

22:24

a dicey subject. It's obviously a subject of great

22:26

interest to a lot of people, but

22:28

there is this, even to that

22:31

level, the way that we approach using

22:34

biological terms, reproduction and mating and

22:36

so forth, there's

22:38

a sort of dichotomy. When you think about

22:41

potential sexual partners, again, just to try to

22:43

stick to maybe sterile

22:45

biological language, most

22:48

people, they have some

22:50

desire and it's greater, it's more pronounced in

22:52

men for reasons we can get

22:54

into through evolutionary

22:56

psychology. They have

22:59

a desire for a variety, a

23:01

diversity of partners, but there's

23:03

also this expectation

23:05

that we want commitment. When

23:09

you look at the data, there's this

23:11

dichotomy and you can't really, from a

23:13

societal level, you can't really satisfy

23:16

both simultaneously. Every person has

23:19

to try to make

23:22

that decision as

23:25

to which way are they gonna go.

23:27

And as you've noted, the topic

23:29

of polyamory seems to be lots of

23:32

different places in the news and

23:34

the media. There are good reasons

23:37

from evolutionary psychology and

23:39

evolutionary biology that this is

23:41

gonna be a tricky road to go down. I

23:43

think this is not a way that

23:45

we wanna go as a society for

23:48

the benefit, primarily, of women because

23:50

this can lead to

23:53

a lot of violence. A big factor

23:55

in domestic violence is sexual

23:57

jealousy. And there's... There's

24:00

is kind of inextricable link

24:02

between. Between. Promiscuity and

24:04

sexual jealousy that people might have

24:06

experience. With this when you have

24:09

you learned the infidelity on the

24:11

for your spouse especially for men

24:13

there is almost in. The.

24:15

Reflexive. Ah, Jealousy that

24:17

arises and in this you know in

24:20

many ways can be in some instances

24:22

can even be Ah, Lethal

24:24

and and lead to violence. So it's

24:27

a it's a very tricky. Relationship.

24:30

That. I think we just want

24:32

to think about really critically as

24:34

is. This discussion goes on about

24:37

how relationships are. Are. Formed

24:39

and and so forth. So.

24:41

Sam with with that point.

24:44

And away that. Any

24:46

subject re. Ah,

24:48

that we're having now. Culturally.

24:51

Where. Do you see they're guy? I don't

24:53

know, but it. It. I mean

24:55

what? Here's what I predict will happen

24:57

if he becomes more and more prevalent.

24:59

You're gonna it. It's going to right

25:02

now. it it tends to be. Not

25:05

exclusive that lot of times these

25:07

cultural trends happen among the most

25:09

educated among the you know, the

25:12

corporate elites and then it might

25:14

trickle down and your people with

25:16

more say. Impulse control

25:18

and so forth may be able to make

25:21

it work at some level, but as just

25:23

trickles down to people with Leds, it's less

25:25

education a be less ability to control their

25:27

impulses and so forth. I. Think there

25:29

is going to be. More

25:32

Domestic violence. Ah, I think there's

25:34

going to be more gender inequality,

25:36

right? As if we're trying to.

25:38

To move forward in in general call,

25:41

I think this is gonna be a

25:43

a bit of a step backwards. I

25:45

think there's gonna be maybe an expectation

25:47

if it becomes more more predominant, more

25:49

prevalent as an expectation on the part

25:51

of men more than women that hey,

25:53

you know, let's let's have a. An.

25:56

Open relationship. And. and

25:58

that's you know i think that's gonna be It's

26:00

going to be tricky. A key point you

26:02

make in the book is that if we look across

26:04

cultures, this pattern of

26:06

monogamy is clear. So

26:09

I know all of us are bringing a

26:11

cultural context to this conversation, and that cultural

26:14

context could be religious influence based on the

26:16

way we are raised, the communities we're a

26:18

part of, you mentioned in other culture, the

26:20

elites, but I just want to point out

26:23

that what is clear in the science is

26:25

this pattern of monogamy in humans is

26:28

prevalent across all cultures. Religion

26:31

builds morality upon monogamy and

26:33

the nuclear family in a

26:35

lot of different instances of

26:38

different religions completely. So

26:40

there is a signal that is present

26:42

in human nature that science is measuring

26:44

across all of these cultures that leads

26:47

to this conclusion of monogamy. Yeah,

26:50

I think it's one of our great social

26:52

achievements as a human race. Scientists

26:56

tell us that our closest

26:59

relatives biologically are chimpanzees. Chimpanzees

27:02

have sex indiscriminately.

27:05

Some of the

27:07

people point to that and say, well,

27:09

we're just more advanced chimpanzees. One

27:12

of the things that we often don't

27:14

recognize, how good we have at human beings,

27:16

just to guess, if

27:19

we applied our notion of, say,

27:21

domestic violence to chimpanzees, do you

27:23

have any estimate or

27:25

guess at what proportion of female chimpanzees

27:27

at some point in their lives experience

27:30

what we would frame as domestic violence?

27:32

Nearly 100. Yeah, 100%. I

27:37

would say that those are linked. A

27:40

lot of times, violence is used by

27:42

males to control reproduction

27:46

and reproductive access and so forth.

27:49

Again, I totally

27:52

agree with you, AJ, that we

27:54

do have a deep capacity for

27:57

monogamy and what

27:59

anthropology called long-term pair bonding. We

28:02

also have a capacity to not to

28:04

disregard that. I think it doesn't take

28:06

long to look around the tabloids and

28:09

see examples where people are

28:11

behaving in other ways. It's

28:13

obviously a sensitive issue. I

28:16

think it's going to be good for society. It's going

28:18

to be good for children. It's going to

28:20

be good for women if we can

28:22

continue on this road

28:25

toward monogamy. It's

28:28

not easy, especially with some of the cultural

28:30

changes that have happened in the last decades,

28:33

at least in the West, but I think

28:35

it's a fight worth continuing.

28:38

In a sense, it requires us

28:40

to overcome a deep propensity

28:42

within human nature. To

28:47

bring it home and to get back to

28:49

this idea of what actually is the purpose

28:51

of existence, to me it

28:53

seems that the way that nature

28:55

has shaped us leaves us pulled in these

28:57

different directions. We

29:00

have these different capacities within us. When

29:03

you combine this, again, my conclusion

29:05

is that on some level we have

29:07

this ability to choose free will. To

29:10

me, it seems like life is a test, that

29:13

we have to choose between these

29:16

competing impulses within us. It

29:21

seems at least on some level that life

29:24

is a test. We've had on Dr.

29:26

Robert Waldinger to talk about the Harvard Adult Developmental

29:28

Study. I know that's a key chapter in the

29:31

book. I'd love to segue

29:33

into how does this look from purpose from

29:35

a personal level, but then also what is

29:37

this good for society

29:39

level that is linked, obviously,

29:41

into human nature? It's clear

29:43

through all of this that

29:45

we have thrived as humans

29:47

in civilizations. It's

29:49

not been on our own completely isolated.

29:52

It's not been in small tribes trying

29:54

to fight off woolly mammoths and saber-toothed

29:56

tigers. We've been able to

29:58

survive and strengthen in informing

30:01

civilizations. And a lot of this meaning

30:03

and purpose is tied to

30:05

the human nature around creating

30:07

these civilizations. Yeah,

30:11

and also at a fundamental

30:13

level are immediate social groups. When you

30:15

ask people what is most meaningful about

30:18

life in these large series that say

30:20

the Pew Foundation does, and

30:23

you give them a blank answer, so it's not

30:25

necessarily multiple choice, they just can write whatever they

30:27

want. Most people list

30:30

in some form their personal relationships. And

30:34

I think that is revealing,

30:36

as you've noted, a

30:39

lot of people will just say, well, should I just work as hard as

30:41

I can, give as much money as I can? And

30:44

we have, there's some kind of cognitive

30:46

illusions that

30:48

nature kind of has in a sneaky

30:51

way built within us because we're not

30:53

good at, one of the

30:55

psychological principles that is really interesting is

30:57

this notion of affective forecasting. Okay,

30:59

and that is the ability to predict

31:01

how we're gonna feel in a given

31:04

situation. Okay, and

31:06

what that means by extension is that we're

31:08

not great at predicting what's going

31:11

to make us happy. Let me qualify it a

31:13

little bit because we're mostly good at predicting whether

31:15

a situation is gonna help us to feel like

31:18

positive or negative emotions, but the

31:20

intensity and the duration of those

31:22

emotions we're not great at. So,

31:24

this was driven home by

31:27

an influential study in the 1970s with

31:30

the provocative title of lottery

31:32

winners and accident victims, where researchers,

31:35

they went and they assessed these

31:37

two very different groups of people,

31:39

ones that had suffered terrible accidents

31:42

that left them quadriplegic or paraplegic,

31:44

and the other group, those who

31:46

had won the lottery. This wasn't

31:48

immediately after the event of

31:51

interest, but some time, and so

31:54

if I asked you, would you rather win the lottery or

31:56

suffer an accident, you'd say, well, of course, I'm gonna win

31:58

the lottery because my happiness is gonna be better. But,

32:01

in terms of the ability of these two

32:03

different groups of people to enjoy everyday things,

32:06

there wasn't really any difference. That

32:10

is because

32:13

of a related principle called hedonic

32:16

adaptation. This notion that for

32:18

a lot of things, after

32:20

a period of time, our

32:23

happiness set point goes back to where it

32:25

was. That's certainly the case

32:27

with things like money, getting a promotion, that

32:29

sort of thing. Yeah,

32:32

they make us feel better for a period,

32:34

but then we kind of settle back in.

32:36

In a way, there's a good part about this because

32:39

it also means that we can adjust in the

32:41

other way and that if we go through some

32:44

sort of adversity that we

32:46

can adapt and prove

32:48

resilient and adjust to

32:51

difficult circumstances. It's

32:53

not all bad, but there is a kind

32:55

of a maddening aspect to it that depicts

32:58

us almost as like hamsters running

33:00

on this happiness treadmill. The

33:04

key exception is relationships.

33:07

Again, for good and for bad,

33:10

a positive, warm, intimate relationship can

33:12

really increase our happiness set point,

33:14

whereas a toxic one, you

33:17

don't really adapt to that. Toxic

33:19

relationships kind of have this enduring

33:21

negative impact on well-being. No,

33:25

it's a great point. I think the

33:27

inverse is also something that's fascinating to

33:29

me. We had Daniel Pink on

33:31

the show to talk about regret. Many

33:34

of us end-of-life situations feel

33:36

intense regret on the singular

33:39

pursuit of achievement that often

33:41

leads us to grow distant

33:43

from those relationships in our

33:45

life, friends, family, loved ones.

33:49

Upon achieving that, that

33:51

regret dampens us later

33:53

in life when we recognize the value in

33:55

those relationships. It's happening on both

33:57

ends. It's impacting our happiness, but it's also... that

34:00

pursuit of achievement is impacting

34:02

our regret later. Yeah.

34:04

Well, it's also showing up in all

34:06

the studies that we're seeing. We've talked

34:08

about it on this show for

34:11

a long time now, which is

34:13

the loneliness epidemic. And

34:15

there are multiple reasons

34:18

why we were going

34:20

down that path and

34:23

we need to correct that. And due

34:25

to that, we have a sicker

34:27

society. We have a

34:30

mentally unclear society

34:33

as well. And all these things

34:35

are contributing to our

34:38

culture. So what I'd

34:40

love to unpack for our audience is

34:42

the overlap of relationships

34:44

and purpose. Because I think a

34:47

lot of us when we hear

34:49

purpose, it does draw out individual

34:51

viewpoints of, again, achievement,

34:53

success, things that I need to do.

34:55

That's something that we even sought to

34:58

find that purpose. And

35:00

in actuality, a big argument in the

35:02

book is that purpose is found through

35:04

relationships and through these social ties and

35:06

connections. And then that has a great

35:08

impact on society as a whole. There's

35:11

certainly an aspect of human nature

35:13

that there can be a purpose in

35:15

attaining individual recognition

35:19

or status. And there is

35:21

a measure of satisfaction that can come from that.

35:24

But it tends to be dwarfed by

35:26

this sense of purpose and

35:28

meaning that comes from, I am

35:30

part of a larger group. I am

35:32

contributing to a cause that is greater

35:34

than myself. And that's all about

35:37

social cohesion and how we relate to

35:40

each other. And that my impact is

35:42

not just about me, but it's

35:44

about the greater social good.

35:47

So this just, again,

35:49

it goes back to relationships. One

35:53

thing that I think is somewhat unique about

35:55

the argument I'm trying to make is where

35:57

that comes from in a book. kind

36:00

of biological evolutionary history. And a

36:02

lot of it comes from, if

36:05

we wanna go down this path, if we

36:07

don't, that's fine. But the way that our

36:09

families are formed and

36:11

the way that our offspring are so

36:14

helpless when they are born. Yeah,

36:16

I would love to unpack that. And I know

36:18

we've touched on attachment theory on

36:20

this show in the past with other guests, but I

36:23

thought it was really unique to bring it into the

36:25

conversation of purpose. Because I think it's

36:27

a popular trending idea on social media and

36:29

a lot of people are aware of attachment.

36:32

But I had never thought of it in the greater value

36:35

of purpose. Yeah, I think

36:37

they're related. So just to give a little

36:39

context, in the early

36:41

1900s in the field of psychology,

36:43

psychiatry, there was this sense

36:46

that relationships were just a

36:48

means to an end. The baby loved the

36:50

mom because the mom gave the baby milk.

36:52

The husband loved the wife because the wife

36:54

gave him sex. A very sort

36:56

of kind of transactional nature to it. One

36:59

of my kind of academic heroes is

37:01

this guy named John Bowlby, who was

37:03

a psychiatrist, a British psychiatrist, and who

37:05

really kind of gave rise

37:08

to this attachment theory. And

37:10

he worked with, he

37:12

worked on not only people who studied humans,

37:14

but people who studied animals. And he recognized,

37:17

even in animals, relationships were not just

37:19

a means to an end. That animals

37:21

would engage in behaviors to

37:24

strengthen relationships, just for the purposes

37:27

of strengthening relationships. And

37:29

the way that he characterized this

37:31

is, the root

37:33

of this comes from the parent-child

37:35

attachment. And

37:38

our offspring are probably the most extreme example

37:41

of this, is that they are extremely helpless

37:43

when they are born. So everything a human

37:45

baby does, cry, coo,

37:48

smile, is meant to draw the parent

37:50

to the child. And that Bowlby

37:52

reason was adaptive. And

37:54

it had to be like that because the infant was

37:57

so helpless. Those Who Study

37:59

infant development, And sometimes refer to their

38:01

first two, three six months of life

38:03

as. The. Fourth for an usher. Because.

38:06

Our babies are born half baked and

38:08

so. You can virtually.

38:11

Resume. The the parents had to

38:13

develop this deep. Dive, love and

38:15

attachment towards the trial is not just

38:17

a one way street year. you'll certainly

38:19

that's the child looks out for. You

38:21

know, The. Parents watched will

38:23

tear. But the parent you know anyone

38:26

who's been apparent you're looking at your

38:28

three year old makers for the not

38:30

run an industry. That's or think there's

38:32

just there's this. Kind of like they're

38:34

a small attachment a view and there's

38:36

s is kind of an evolutionary linked

38:39

to that read that the some become

38:41

somewhat obvious that that strongest form of

38:43

attachment. And. Love and offers him so

38:45

for comes from. The. Way that.

38:48

Know. The way that. Nature saved

38:50

our. Our. Family relationships.

38:52

Some the I think really interesting

38:54

about that is that it's kind

38:56

of inevitably linked with. With.

38:58

The challenge that is rape. if U S.

39:00

Apparent. There. Was more challenging than you've

39:02

done night as a tendency for is my

39:04

kit. You say? okay what's most rewarding done?

39:06

They'll say nine hundred events, Raise my kids,

39:08

read you and you can't You can't Sonic

39:10

can get away from those when he, when

39:12

he. Just if it's all right. Try.

39:15

This point home with this kind of. Kooky

39:18

thought experiment. Who would imagine what

39:20

are socialized will be like if we

39:22

were say sea horses dates? So sea

39:24

horses. Are different in that

39:26

they have mail pregnancy which would probably

39:28

automatically lead to some very different parental

39:31

leave policies. but also Louisa Different is

39:33

that they have like two thousand babies

39:35

at once. Part of that it's different

39:37

is it they don't have any investment

39:39

in their kids once or borenstein like

39:41

okay they leave the mail womb and

39:43

goodbye good life you know, hope you

39:45

don't get eaten. Please

39:48

make me proud. No, no, no, Suman me

39:50

knows exactly what a slice to be a

39:52

seahorse, but it's a good bet that. They.

39:54

don't really care have the same

39:57

deep love and concern for their

39:59

their children their offspring that human

40:01

parents do. And so kind of

40:03

at this confluence of

40:05

psychology and evolution, you know, there

40:08

can't be this deep love without compelling sacrifice.

40:10

It's almost like a cosmic

40:13

near spiritual truth. Does that make sense?

40:15

Yeah, there's another aspect to that as

40:17

well. And Sam, perhaps you could

40:19

cite the study. We've talked about it on

40:22

the show, but there is a

40:24

certain level of happiness that we're all able

40:26

to achieve, and that's going to go up

40:28

and down as things change. And we get

40:30

older and there's going to be those hurdles.

40:33

But those who do have children have

40:36

much higher ends of

40:39

happiness due to having

40:42

that relationship. But

40:44

their overall quality of life isn't

40:47

as high in happiness as the

40:49

person without the child. And

40:52

I laugh about this because of course, when I

40:54

was younger, I never thought about having

40:56

children. And now that I'm

40:59

older and there's certain aspects of that that

41:01

I do wish that I would

41:03

get to experience and perhaps I will. But,

41:07

you know, that

41:09

shows exactly of that attachment and

41:11

what that delivers in us and

41:13

our quality of life. Yeah,

41:16

I mean, there's a lot of studies about

41:18

this. And I think this is where it's

41:20

kind of really important to try to parse

41:22

out our terms. Right. We use these things

41:24

like happiness. Well-being, you know,

41:27

good emotion. Right. So parenting is not

41:29

like if you think of happiness as

41:32

like reading a book on a

41:34

beach, that's not parenting. I have five children that

41:36

are 14 and under. You

41:41

know, so I you know, it's a busy life. It's

41:44

but, you know, when you use terms

41:46

like rewarding that, you know, that seems

41:48

to kind of really

41:51

get to this this matter more. There is

41:53

a great book. I was

41:55

written by a woman named Jennifer Senior, 2014 or so.

41:59

And I really like to time. title, it said, All

42:02

Joy and No Fun, the Paradox of Modern

42:05

Parenting. And the only

42:07

qualm I have with that is the word

42:09

modern, because as I've kind of laid out

42:11

here, it's always been a challenge. It's kind

42:13

of like evolutionarily written into our natures that

42:15

raising children is going to take a

42:18

lot of sacrifice and effort.

42:20

Those rewards of joy are that much

42:22

greater. And why that people without

42:25

children are never going to be able to experience.

42:28

And I know from my friends who

42:30

have recently had children that it does

42:33

give a lot of purpose and meaning to

42:35

their life and often leads

42:37

to men investing more energy

42:40

into providing into their career and

42:42

also influencing this great society. And

42:45

I know there's some great science

42:47

around, in particular, dads

42:49

and children. I'd love for

42:51

you to unpack extending beyond the good life,

42:53

what the great society actually means with all

42:55

of this purpose. I think as

42:58

you guys have pointed out, episodes that

43:00

I listened to and prepped for

43:02

talking with you today, there's this

43:04

sometimes illusion we have that I can be happy

43:06

all the time or I can have positive emotion

43:09

all the time. And that's just

43:11

not how reality is. And

43:14

so sometimes in our efforts to

43:17

avoid a negative emotion, we will

43:19

maybe avoid a longer term

43:22

greater payoff emotionally. And

43:25

I think you see that a little bit.

43:28

The fertility rate has fallen quite a

43:30

bit and now is hovering around, I

43:33

would say 1.7, 1.8

43:35

children per woman. And

43:38

that's lower than if you ask women, how

43:40

many children would you like to have? It's

43:42

almost like a full child more than it

43:44

actually is. So for

43:46

lots of complicated reasons, families

43:49

have been having fewer children, women have been having

43:51

fewer children in the West. And

43:54

I think that's kind of related to this.

43:57

So I am trying to draw back. to

44:01

biology and evolution, right? When you

44:03

think of, is there anything more

44:05

evolutionarily motivating than

44:09

providing for your offspring? And as you

44:11

mentioned, AJ, that you have friends who

44:14

have children, it kind of makes them view

44:17

work in a different way. It's not just about

44:19

me now. It's like, okay, I got to take

44:21

care of my kids, right? And so when I

44:23

go to work, it's imbued with a deeper sense

44:25

of purpose than it was

44:28

when it was just like, I'm trying to be

44:31

carefree and a bachelor and so forth. So

44:33

I think

44:35

those principles are related.

44:38

What I'd love to hear from you, looking back

44:40

at the research and everything you did and putting

44:42

together this book, what would

44:44

your advice be for Sam sitting

44:46

there in med school being leveled

44:48

in evolution class around this concept

44:50

of purpose? Because it's something that

44:53

we hear a lot in our

44:55

clients, and especially our younger clients

44:57

who are fresh out of

44:59

college and looking to find that purpose,

45:01

and often hearing advice on shows like

45:03

ours that you need purpose to find

45:05

meaning in life and to ultimately create

45:07

the good life for yourself. But

45:09

that concept of actually finding it for

45:12

yourself is challenging. And many in

45:14

our audience would love a map. So

45:17

what is your advice to Sam sitting in that

45:19

med school class? Well, there's

45:21

a tendency among

45:24

some in our Western

45:26

culture now, especially those who are really

45:28

driven to sequence

45:30

these major life milestones. I'm

45:33

going to get through,

45:35

in my case, it was medical school

45:37

and then us doctors, we go to

45:39

school forever. And so after med school,

45:41

there's residency. And there's a tendency to

45:43

try to sequence those things and say,

45:46

I am, after I'm

45:48

done with all my medical training, after I'm

45:50

stable financially, then I can

45:52

focus on relationships, maybe a family, that sort

45:54

of thing. It's tricky to

45:57

say this is a This

46:00

is an approach that's gonna work for everyone, but

46:02

I think sometimes it's better

46:05

if you don't sequence them. If

46:07

you look at, okay, let's, let

46:09

me focus, I don't have to focus exclusively on

46:11

work or school right now. Let me also have

46:13

time in the evenings where I can try

46:15

to develop long-standing personal

46:18

relationships. I mean, hopefully, with

46:20

a romantic partner. I know dating these

46:22

days is a tricky thing. I

46:26

was fortunate to get married right before I started medical

46:28

school. So some

46:31

scholars who study marriage will refer

46:33

to this as a

46:35

capstone marriage. That's when you kind of go through

46:37

the career and then you have a capstone marriage

46:39

or a cornerstone, meaning that you get married a

46:42

little bit earlier. I'm not gonna be

46:44

so presumptuous to say, this

46:46

is when people should be married, that sort of thing, but

46:49

you don't need to put it off. And in some ways, I

46:51

think it's better to think

46:53

about it earlier and not to

46:55

sequence these events in

46:58

our lives. Certainly,

47:00

if you wait to form deep

47:02

personal relationships too long, other

47:05

opportunities might pass by for you

47:07

to do the thing. That's what I

47:10

wish I would have known when I was younger. And

47:14

just to kind of, you gotta remind yourself, look, it's

47:17

the relationships. And I'm,

47:20

by standards of Yale professors,

47:22

I'm fairly religious. And I

47:24

feel like that's one of the reasons that

47:27

I go to religious services on a regular basis

47:29

to remind me, look, it's the

47:31

relationship dummy. It's not your career. I mean,

47:33

that's important, but you need

47:35

to have a balance and a focus for this.

47:38

In biology, there's a word

47:40

for imbalance. It's cancer.

47:43

When one cell becomes

47:45

so dominant in the organism, it

47:49

can overtake and starve

47:51

the other tissues and

47:53

parts of the body. So you don't want

47:55

work to become a cancer. I

47:58

mean, our brains finish. growing

48:00

and developing late

48:02

20s, 27 I believe is

48:04

one of those awesome ages.

48:08

Part of that and getting married early is that

48:11

those pathways, and there's

48:13

a lot of imprinting left to do, and those

48:15

pathways that are being built, and if you're building

48:18

those with your significant other

48:20

and then having a

48:22

family together, those pathways are

48:26

that much stronger. The imprinting

48:28

is that much stronger. Not

48:31

to say that you can't build that relationship

48:33

after 27, but

48:36

your brain is fully developed and

48:39

we see it just in

48:41

making friends as you

48:44

get older is more difficult. In

48:46

fact, we help our clients do

48:49

that because it is

48:52

difficult. There's a reason why

48:54

it is better. There's

48:57

lots of reasons for a lot of people that

48:59

it's going to be better to get married early

49:01

to have children early for

49:03

those specific biological reasons. This

49:08

religious principle of investing in your community,

49:10

I think, is another

49:12

very important part of this finding purpose.

49:15

I know we see it in

49:17

a lot of our clients, this

49:19

lone wolf mindset that if I

49:21

just self-achieve and I

49:24

reach ranks and degrees

49:26

and status personally, then

49:28

I can put that

49:30

down and I can start to

49:32

invest in relationships when in actuality,

49:35

it's investing in your community that

49:37

creates those relationships that helps you

49:39

elucidate that purpose for yourself. Much

49:42

of this purpose is tied to being in

49:44

service of others, which is

49:46

why most modern religious philosophies

49:49

that is a cornerstone of it

49:51

is the community building aspect because

49:53

it is so closely linked to

49:55

purpose. Yeah. Yeah. I

49:57

agree with everything you just said. I'd

50:00

love to hear what in this research

50:02

of this book was most surprising for

50:04

you, especially because I feel you did

50:06

such a great job of looking closely

50:09

at the science but having this religious grounding.

50:11

And I know as I started the show

50:13

with, you know, many in our audience might

50:16

feel that they're almost at odds that you're

50:18

picking one side or the other. But in

50:20

actuality, there is a lot of overlap in

50:23

the science that you researched in this book

50:25

and brought forward. I feel

50:27

like what was most surprising for me was

50:29

the strength of the research that

50:31

links marriage with

50:34

well-being and happiness. That

50:36

was just something that blew me away.

50:39

And part of it was because, like, it

50:42

just, it was the opposite of what I

50:44

was reading in the newspaper or kind of

50:47

the prevailing sentiment from, you know, cultural

50:49

and opinion leaders that,

50:52

you know, if you want to be happy, you need to be carefree and

50:54

maximize your

50:57

freedom. And

51:00

that is certainly not what the

51:02

data say. The data, you know,

51:04

probably the two most, the two

51:07

modifiable factors that most impact mental

51:09

health, well-being, happiness altogether

51:12

are marriage and

51:15

actually religious participation.

51:18

And a lot of that has to do with

51:21

relationships. And, you

51:23

know, and it's, you know, Facebook and

51:25

social media, you know, there can be

51:27

blessings from them, but there's

51:29

a lack of depth in relationships

51:32

that are formed in social media

51:36

context that, you know, things like

51:38

marriage and community groups, religious participation,

51:41

the depth of those relationships is

51:43

really much more gratifying than

51:46

any sort of Facebook friendship that

51:48

you come across. You know, a lot of people

51:50

have probably been said, you know, social

51:52

media is a little bit like the junk

51:54

food form of relationships. There's

51:56

this aspect to it that tastes good, but

51:58

it has essentially no no lasting nutritional

52:01

value. Part of that is

52:03

because I think in

52:05

part, these things weren't around when our

52:08

ancestors were evolving. They're

52:10

an imitation for

52:13

social interaction that

52:15

our ancient brains

52:18

were accustomed to and essentially

52:21

evolved for. I have

52:23

to remind people that this is

52:25

an experiment. We don't know

52:27

what the results are of all

52:30

this technology. Even

52:32

look, it's been very

52:35

difficult to talk about some of

52:37

these things and certainly a very

52:39

difficult book to write

52:41

in today's climate with all

52:43

of this. It

52:46

does make things difficult. A

52:49

lot of the paths that this

52:52

technology has put us on

52:54

have been very anti-human or

52:56

even anti-relationship at certain

52:58

points. That's

53:01

difficult. We have to understand that

53:03

and navigate that. Just

53:05

for instance, there was a

53:07

class action lawsuit dropped on

53:10

dating apps last week due

53:13

to them misleading the

53:15

public. We're now 10

53:17

years into those marketing campaigns and

53:19

we're seeing the results of how

53:21

those marketing campaigns to get rid

53:23

of the stigma of online dating

53:25

and what they replaced it with

53:29

has resulted in. We have

53:31

to be able to fix that if we're going

53:33

to be a healthy society. I

53:37

think one of the ways that we can approach

53:39

this is certainly there are benefits. I don't want

53:41

to say I'm anti-technology, that sort of thing. My

53:45

extended family, my wife's extended family, we

53:47

live across the US. We'll

53:49

have a Zoom call once a month and the cousins can

53:51

talk to each other. It's

53:53

a great benefit in that

53:56

way. One of the things I think we need

53:58

to think about is we need to... be

54:00

asking ourselves, how is this similar

54:02

or how is this different to

54:04

how humans interacted anciently?

54:08

And the ways that we can make it more

54:10

like that, I think is going to make it

54:12

better. So one of the things that is

54:16

pretty intuitive is

54:18

that there's a lot of toxicity

54:20

that exists on the internet. A lot of this

54:22

has to do with anonymity. If

54:24

you have a username that has no

54:27

link to your personal identity, then there's

54:29

really no way that there's going to be any

54:31

consequences for you saying all sorts of toxic stuff.

54:33

People say things to each other on the internet

54:35

that they would never say to each other in

54:37

person. And that's

54:39

because our subconsciousness kind

54:42

of dehumanizes each other when we

54:45

don't see each other's faces and so

54:47

forth. We subconsciously forget

54:49

that behind this chat

54:52

is an actual person. And so

54:55

can we make a policy where whatever social media

54:57

platform is, you have to have a picture and

54:59

it has to be prominent. It has to be

55:01

linked to who you actually are. It's

55:04

not going to solve all the problems, but

55:07

in a subtle way, it's going to

55:09

decrease that toxicity that sometimes happens. Yeah,

55:11

I think our view on it is

55:13

technology should be additive to your life.

55:16

It should be additive to your community.

55:18

It should be additive to your relationships.

55:20

The fear that we have, and

55:23

there's a recent article in Atlantic

55:25

about this loneliness epidemic, is it's

55:27

substituting the third place,

55:30

the religious gathering, the entertainment that

55:32

we also gained from those weekly

55:34

sermons and from our pastor and

55:36

our religious leaders, has now

55:39

been completely substituted in our life by

55:41

the screen. And

55:43

that screen is readily available 24

55:45

seven, whereas we only had that opportunity

55:48

on Saturdays or Sundays to get together

55:50

with our community in a safe space

55:52

to build and foster relationships, be entertained

55:54

by our religious leaders, and then come

55:57

away with that village that helps support

55:59

us. us in child rearing. And as

56:01

we become more and more isolated in

56:03

our career, moving away from our friends

56:05

and family, and that screen

56:08

is ever present, that technology acting

56:10

as a substitute as we're seeing has

56:12

a cascade of negative impacts on

56:14

our lives. And it does bring us

56:16

further away when substituting from finding our

56:19

purpose. Yeah, yeah, I think that's

56:21

absolutely right. So with this book, I'd love

56:23

for audience to find out more about you

56:25

and where they can purchase this book as

56:27

it comes out a little bit later next

56:29

month. Sounds great. You

56:32

can visit my personal

56:34

website, samueltwilkinson.com. You

56:37

can also look me up on the Yale

56:39

webpage. The book is available

56:41

wherever books are generally

56:43

sold. Thank you for joining us, Sam. It was

56:45

a pleasure. Thank you, Sam. Thanks very much for having

56:47

me. Johnny,

56:58

I have to say it's not often we get into

57:00

conversations like this on the show, but it was fascinating

57:02

to talk to Sam about free will,

57:04

how to unlock purpose in our lives, and

57:06

the duality of human nature. As I know,

57:08

we are such huge fans of cooperativity when

57:10

it comes to our behavior and building relationships.

57:12

And this week's shout out is actually from

57:15

Eric Douglas, one of our X

57:17

Factor Accelerator members. My name

57:19

is Eric Douglas. I work in the

57:21

nonprofit field. The reason why

57:23

I joined X Factor is I

57:25

wanted to have deeper relationships. I

57:27

also wanted to build

57:30

opportunities around dating,

57:32

career, and

57:34

social life on my terms. X

57:37

Factor has helped immensely, helped me see

57:39

through my own patterns

57:41

and behaviors, got

57:44

me to see how I was accepting a

57:46

lot of bad behavior around me. So

57:50

I am looking forward to building

57:52

a life on my terms. That's

57:55

already started in the X Factor

57:57

program. I've been connecting with

57:59

amazing. The people and doing things

58:02

I never thought I would

58:04

do so I would encourage

58:06

anybody to join. It's very

58:08

valuable. Now. View Listen this far

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my guess is because you want

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more on of life in the

58:14

finally succeed at work, love and

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join as the or to Turn

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What? Are you waiting for? join us today

59:03

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59:08

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hope you have an epic week. It's.