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1:32

Welcome to the Articharm podcast, where we

1:34

break down the science of powerful communication

1:36

and winning mindset. So you have the

1:38

cheat code to succeed with people. Every

1:40

episode is jam packed with actionable steps

1:42

to unlock the hidden superpowers inside of

1:44

you. Level up with us each week

1:46

by listening to interviews with the best

1:48

in business, psychology and relationships. We distill

1:50

thousands of hours of research in the

1:53

most effective tools and the latest science

1:55

so you can start winning today. Let's

1:57

face it, in order to be seen

1:59

and heard, your communication needs to

2:01

cut through the noise. And we're going

2:03

to show you how. I'm AJ, successfully

2:06

recovered introvert, entrepreneur, and self-development junkie. And

2:08

I'm Johnny Zubak, former touring musician, promoter,

2:10

rock and roller, and co-founder here at

2:12

the Articharm. And for the last 15

2:15

years, we've trained thousands of top performers

2:18

and teams from every background. We have

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dedicated our lives to teaching men and

2:22

women all they need to know about

2:25

communication, networking, and relationships. You shouldn't have

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to settle for anything less than extraordinary.

2:32

All right, let's kick off today's show. Today we're

2:34

talking with Dr. Debbie Sorensen, one of the world's

2:37

leading experts on burnout. She joins us

2:39

to discuss her own battle with burnout. Dr.

2:41

Sorensen got her PhD in psychology

2:43

from Harvard University. Her latest

2:46

book is Act for Burnout, Recharge,

2:48

Reconnect, and Transform Burnout with Acceptance

2:50

and Commitment Therapy. She's also

2:52

a co-host of the Psychologists Off the

2:55

Clock podcast and her private practice in

2:57

Boulder, Colorado, where she uses acceptance and

2:59

commitment therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy in

3:01

her work with clients. We

3:03

discuss some of the biggest misconceptions with

3:05

burnout, how to recognize the early

3:08

signs of burnout. She also

3:10

breaks down five different types of burnout cycles,

3:12

and what steps you can take to begin

3:14

to manage stress before it's too late. Love

3:17

the show, Debbie. So great to have you. Oh, thanks

3:19

so much. I'm really excited to be here. I appreciate it.

3:22

And I know you have a personal story

3:24

with burnout that might be the impetus for

3:26

the book. I'd love to hear about your

3:29

own struggle with burnout and how you overcame

3:31

it. Oh, yeah. I mean, it definitely

3:33

is one of those things where you end up

3:36

learning about something because you care about it

3:38

because it impacts your own life. I

3:41

spent the first part of my career

3:43

as a psychologist on a medical team

3:45

in a hospital and

3:47

worked there for many years, very happily, and

3:50

loved it for the most part. But I

3:52

hit a pretty bad burnout stage where I

3:54

was just really stressed out.

3:56

And we know that burnout always happens

3:58

in the... context of chronic stress

4:01

and it was just one of those periods of

4:03

time where there had been some transitions at work

4:05

that I was dealing with. I had

4:07

two young kids at home. I was managing a whole

4:09

bunch of various things in my

4:11

life and it actually

4:14

took me a while to recognize that I was

4:16

burned out. I think I just felt like it

4:18

was always behind, always behind and I hadn't really

4:20

noticed how much I had gotten to this point

4:22

of just being really... It

4:25

just felt like a grind, right? I felt

4:27

really exhausted. I felt just not

4:29

that spark of passion that I normally feel

4:31

for my work and it wasn't

4:33

until this day I was sitting in my colleagues

4:35

office and she was trying to figure out some

4:38

administrative stuff and I just was like, I

4:40

don't care. I just did not care

4:43

at all and that's very unlike me

4:45

usually and because that happened,

4:47

I had this light bulb moment where I'm like,

4:49

I'm really burnt out. I had been burnt out

4:52

for a while and didn't realize it and

4:54

at that point I was able to make

4:56

some changes to just be more aware of

4:58

what was going on and I got to

5:00

a better place. It eventually, you know, it

5:02

takes a while sometimes to get out of

5:05

burnout, but because of that I got really

5:07

interested in burnout and so many of my

5:09

co-workers and colleagues had had burnout and eventually,

5:12

to make a very long story short, I

5:14

ended up leaving that position

5:16

later, not because I was burned out, but just

5:18

because I was ready for a change and ended

5:21

up specializing in my clinical practice in

5:23

burnout. So most of the people that

5:25

come into my office are

5:27

experiencing chronic stress and and or burnout. So

5:30

because of that, I really dove into it.

5:32

Like what do we know about burnout? How

5:34

do you work with burnout? It's quite complex

5:36

as a psychologist. I was trying to learn

5:38

as much as I could to be able

5:40

to help people and that's really

5:43

what got me into the book and then of course

5:45

we had COVID and so burnout just became

5:49

everywhere. It was already a problem, but

5:51

then because of COVID it just became

5:53

a huge problem for so many

5:56

people. And so that led to the book

5:58

and here I am. I feel like for

6:01

a lot of people, it's easier to

6:03

see burnout in others than in themselves.

6:05

And obviously, being a psychologist and having

6:07

studied how the mind works, you would

6:10

think you would recognize the signs almost

6:12

before anyone else. Why is

6:14

that when we're in almost this like boiling

6:16

the frog scenario with burnout, when we're actually

6:18

experiencing it, it's not obvious to us, but

6:21

our loved ones, our coworkers, our family might

6:23

be the first to spot it. My

6:25

experience, and I don't know if this is

6:28

true for everyone, but I think one of

6:30

the things that happens with burnout is that

6:32

people blame themselves. People

6:34

think, you know, if I could just catch

6:36

up, if I could just manage stress better,

6:38

if I was more resilient, if

6:40

I was tougher, if I... So

6:43

I think I fell into that trap

6:45

a little bit myself where I just really

6:48

felt like, I always felt like I was

6:50

right around the corner from being less stressed

6:52

out. Once I get through this

6:54

project, once I get these things done off of

6:56

my to-do list, my stress level will go down.

6:59

And I think I was so immersed in

7:01

that way of thinking that it didn't occur to

7:03

me that I was burnt out. I just thought, oh,

7:06

I'm not keeping up. I'm almost

7:08

through this. And so I think that's part

7:10

of what it is, is that we just... We

7:13

think that we're not doing a good enough job of

7:15

keeping up instead of thinking like, oh, I'm burnt out

7:17

and it makes sense that I'm burnt out because of

7:19

the situation I'm in. So now

7:21

in hindsight, are you able to

7:24

identify those work stressors

7:26

that we're adding up for

7:28

you? And then can you explain

7:30

or define some of those for our audience?

7:33

Burnout always happens in a context of

7:35

chronic stress and some of the things

7:37

that we know contribute. One

7:39

is obvious, which is just a really high

7:41

workload where you don't have the resources

7:45

to keep up with the demands that are on

7:47

you over the course of time. So it's not

7:49

just a one-time stressor, right? We're always too busy.

7:52

In my particular case, I mean, I think

7:54

hospitals are known for this. There's so much

7:56

administrative work. I was working with trainees. I

7:58

just had constant... you know, patients coming in,

8:01

and I had to be going to this meeting and that

8:03

meeting. I think that sometimes

8:05

also feeling unappreciated at work or feeling

8:07

like you don't have enough support. And

8:10

because I had been through this transition

8:12

recently, I think my very close,

8:14

cohesive team got changed. It just

8:16

happened, you know, and I think

8:19

that the support I was getting,

8:21

this feeling of connection

8:23

was lower at that

8:25

particular point in time. And I think that made

8:28

a difference. In my case, I

8:30

was working part time at that period because

8:32

I had very young kids at home and

8:34

I had reduced my hours. But I don't

8:36

think that my workload shifted

8:38

very much. And I think anyone who's worked part time

8:40

can probably relate to this. A lot of the demands

8:43

that you have, you're just trying to do all the

8:45

administrative work and so on, it didn't

8:47

change. And so I think that

8:49

those are the types of factors you

8:51

often see with people. Some I've heard

8:53

it called micro stressors before there's actually

8:55

a book that recently came out about

8:57

this. Where it's those little day-to-day things,

8:59

you know, you get stuck in traffic

9:01

and you can't find a parking spot

9:04

and the printer jams and you

9:06

have to fill out this paperwork

9:08

that's due today. And meanwhile, you're trying to do

9:10

your day job and you're in meetings all the

9:13

time. Those kinds of things just start to take

9:15

a toll and after a while, they

9:17

just deplete you. You feel fatigued. I

9:20

think that's important for our audience

9:22

to realize that it's not the

9:24

big elephant that is in the

9:26

room that is adding the stress. Sure,

9:29

it's making life difficult. You have a lot

9:31

to do, but it is all

9:33

the little things that are compounding on the day.

9:35

And the other thing that

9:38

you said that I find interesting is

9:40

that you had lost the people

9:42

you were connected with when you had

9:44

changed roles. And those people

9:46

played a role in allowing

9:48

you to talk through what you were

9:51

dealing with, what you were feeling, and

9:53

the little micro interactions that we

9:56

have day-to-day that

9:58

allow us to feel good. about what

10:00

we're doing and where we are and what we're

10:02

heading. And I think along with

10:04

that, there's a prolonged lack of a

10:07

sense of achievement. So

10:09

even as you said, feeling unsupported, you

10:11

know, those small moments where co-workers would

10:13

say, hey, great job on that. Thank

10:16

you for handling that meeting or thank

10:18

you for moving this project forward. If

10:20

there's this prolonged sense of a lack

10:22

of achievement, monotony and being weighed down

10:24

by things that you don't feel fill

10:27

you up or allow you to feel

10:29

like there's growth and momentum in the

10:31

right direction. We see this a lot

10:33

in our clients where there's a tendency

10:35

to make themselves busy and feel space

10:37

to try to find that moment of

10:39

control and achievement in their life. And

10:42

oftentimes that prolonged sense of just overwhelming

10:44

busyness, but not moving ahead in your

10:47

career, not seeing a work project to

10:49

completion, not seeing, you know, your kids

10:51

develop in the way that you want

10:53

or the household chores getting managed to

10:56

the degree that you would like. That

10:58

prolonged sense really weighs on you and

11:00

that chronic stress environment. Absolutely.

11:02

Yeah. And I think one thing

11:04

you're saying is really important there

11:06

around how we sometimes stay

11:09

busy and try really hard to focus

11:11

on getting things done in order to

11:13

almost to outrun the chronic stress, but

11:16

that that's the very thing that keeps us

11:18

so stressed out all the time. We almost

11:20

feel like, well, if I can just get

11:23

all these things done and then I won't have to feel

11:26

this way anymore. But in doing

11:28

so, that leads to burnout and

11:30

so does isolation. As you were

11:32

saying, it's, you know, one of the

11:34

things that happened to me when I was burned out is that

11:36

I kind of withdrew from the people that

11:38

were still there and the new people that I was

11:40

interacting with. I didn't make time to

11:42

talk to them because I was just not feeling

11:45

energized enough. But by being more isolated

11:47

in the long run that contributed as

11:50

well. So you get into these cycles

11:52

around it, I think, where the behaviors

11:54

you're engaging in, they

11:57

seem like what you need to do to get yourself

12:00

out of this situation like well if I just go into

12:02

my office and close the door and work as hard as

12:04

I can but then all the

12:06

joy is gone and the stress is

12:08

even higher. So in the book

12:11

you defined 10 burnout

12:13

cycles and as I was going through

12:15

them I picked out the

12:17

ones that are most common that we see

12:19

in our clients and that we hear from

12:22

our audience which to me the

12:24

busy bee, the perfectionist,

12:26

the people pleaser, the

12:28

marching soldier and the over analyzer.

12:31

So if you wouldn't mind defining

12:33

a couple of those for us

12:35

so that our audience can

12:38

can identify or

12:40

at least understand if if they're

12:43

one of these identities. The busy

12:45

bee I think we talked about right is where you just

12:47

stay busy. Yes. Yeah the

12:49

perfectionist it's funny

12:51

with perfectionism because if you look underneath

12:53

perfectionism it's really all about control. I

12:55

think often people have this sense that

12:58

if I can do everything just right

13:00

and perfectly then I won't have

13:02

to feel this anxiety but you

13:04

can see how perfectionism absolutely leads

13:07

to chronic stress and burnout because

13:09

it's impossible you know. It's

13:11

impossible. It's impossible you'll just never

13:13

get there and you'll really

13:16

drive yourself bananas trying. The

13:18

one that I called the marching soldier I think again probably

13:20

I'll relate to that a little bit too. It's where

13:22

you just feel like you have to just carry on

13:24

and keep going and I can't stop until you're just

13:27

at the end of the day you collapse because

13:29

you've got nothing left but that sense of like

13:31

I can't stop, I can't take a break, I

13:33

just have to keep going. I have to keep

13:36

pushing it's kind of this stoic type

13:38

of approach to things.

13:42

Yes I think that one is the one that

13:44

AJ and I probably identify with just

13:46

from growing up in the Midwest and

13:49

having factory dads. Yes

13:51

I could see that. Yeah and the thought that

13:53

just hard work can work your way out of

13:55

it when in actuality it could spin it up

13:57

even worse. Absolutely Well and I think one of the things.

14:00

The problem with the marching soldier approach is

14:02

that there's no room for break. There's no

14:04

room to just stop and feel what you

14:06

feel, Which in my opinion is one of

14:08

the things that can help with burnout is

14:11

to give yourself that space to this to

14:13

and motions and to sit with how you

14:15

feel even when it's hard. But when you're

14:17

marching on and on and on, you just

14:20

don't allow for that. These.

14:22

Last two are certainly these come

14:24

up a lot. We see them

14:26

all the time, so people pleasing.

14:29

And the over analyzer.

14:32

People. Pleasing as big a whisper Now

14:34

because I think what happens is said.

14:38

You. Get reinforcements for saying yes to

14:40

things and putting other people's needs

14:42

first, And it's It's not a

14:44

bad quality to have at a

14:46

certain level, because usually we want

14:48

to be generous and kind and

14:50

caring. Splitting: when you're really stuck

14:52

in people pleasing, often you sacrifice

14:54

yourself in order to make other

14:56

people happy, or you have trouble

14:58

saying now, or you're always running

15:00

yourself ragged trying to make everyone

15:03

else. Happy. With what you're doing

15:05

and so one of the things I often see

15:07

with my clients with for now is that they

15:09

need to learn how to set boundaries and say

15:11

no and. You don't wanna

15:14

some time to do nice things for

15:16

other people are say yes, but you

15:18

need to be really intentional about anything.

15:20

Sometimes people air really far on the

15:22

side of always trying to make other

15:24

people happy. So. It's a big

15:26

skill I think when when you're talking about burn

15:28

out prevention is learning to say know. What

15:30

I've also noticed here. Is

15:32

and perhaps this was your of the

15:35

wording that you wanted to use. With.

15:37

these or identities the people can feel

15:39

good about who doesn't want to be

15:41

so busy be who doesn't want to

15:43

be the marching soldier who can take

15:45

on anything some of the other ones

15:47

you mentioned was like the do gooder

15:50

right old as want to be a

15:52

do gooder these are all things are

15:54

it was a perfectionist who doesn't want

15:56

to be perfect to doesn't want to

15:58

put their best efforts in So

16:01

these are identities that

16:03

people can take on and

16:06

where as their badge

16:08

of courage and honor

16:10

and ability to feel

16:12

good about themselves. But again,

16:14

these also then lead you

16:16

astray in how you're

16:18

viewing the world and your work and

16:21

how you must go through

16:23

it. Yeah, and

16:25

it is such a double edged sword, I think with

16:28

some of these where it slips

16:30

past the point where something that actually

16:32

is a good quality caring about your

16:34

work wanting to do a good job

16:37

wanting to put a lot

16:39

of effort into your work can slip past

16:41

the point. Actually, Joan Halifax, I cited this

16:43

in my book. She she's a Buddhist scholar,

16:46

you might have seen her name around. She

16:48

has a few books out there and she

16:50

describes them as edge states. So,

16:53

for instance, actually, we'll go with the overthinker because

16:55

we didn't get to that one yet. It can

16:57

be really helpful to use your mind

16:59

to solve problems and to think things through

17:01

and to be rational and smart about things.

17:05

But it can easily slip into this

17:07

edge state of just the wheels constantly

17:09

turning trying to solve your problems by

17:11

overthinking. And the next

17:13

thing you know, you're preoccupied, ruminating, worrying,

17:16

and you're just stuck up in your

17:18

head and not really getting anywhere. But

17:21

you could see how that can be a helpful

17:23

trait in some circumstances. But if you go too

17:25

far with it, it gets to the point where

17:28

it's contributing to burnout. You're just

17:30

constantly up in your head and you're maybe

17:32

even having trouble just being really centered

17:34

and focused on what's going on

17:37

in the moment and listening to your body.

17:39

Right. I think a large part of this

17:42

is the disconnect from all the warning signs

17:44

that your body is sharing with you around

17:46

how the chronic stress is appearing, the lack

17:48

of sleep, the lethargy, the inability to do

17:51

the things that you normally enjoy doing. Maybe

17:54

that's working out. Maybe that's seeing friends.

17:56

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17:58

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22:56

you still struggle with the issue

22:58

after all those fancy interventions, it's

23:01

obviously your fault because you should just meditate

23:03

a little bit more or a little bit

23:06

hotter. Yeah, you're not doing enough.

23:09

It could feel like a Chinese finger

23:11

trap where you are pulling to get

23:14

more of that space in your life. Maybe

23:16

it's the meditation, maybe it's adding the exercise,

23:18

but it's actually just creating even more tension

23:20

and pressure on that already busy schedule of

23:23

yours. If the actual

23:25

chronic stress that's coming from communication

23:27

at work, workload meetings, the way

23:29

that people are treating each other,

23:32

the culture, working out

23:34

more, sleeping more doesn't actually address

23:37

what's going on in that environment. And I

23:39

think along with what you're saying

23:41

earlier, it can be very difficult for many

23:43

of us who are overachievers to not only

23:46

ask for help, but an environment where people

23:48

are being laid off. People's performance is being

23:50

judged, and we see in the economy that

23:52

maybe the job prospects aren't that great. And

23:55

there's a worry that if I raise my

23:57

hand and say, hey, this isn't working for

23:59

me. me or this is a stressful environment

24:01

that I'm not able to operate my best in,

24:03

the simple solution for the company may be to

24:06

say, okay, well, might be time for you to

24:08

find another job. Yeah.

24:11

And I think that that economic

24:13

framework, let's just call it that, right? This

24:15

culture in which we live is a big

24:17

part of the problem here, because I think

24:19

we're all afraid of that. We all feel

24:21

like we have to earn

24:23

a living, of course, and provide

24:26

for ourselves and our families if we

24:28

have one. And so there's this pressure

24:30

to keep our job. And when that

24:32

becomes the expectation and the

24:35

norm, you know, and

24:37

then you feel like you have to kind of keep

24:39

hustling away to just to keep up. And so this

24:41

is where it really is a more of a cultural

24:43

problem. And people end up feeling stuck,

24:46

you know, they feel like, well, what can I do

24:48

about that? Because I can't

24:50

quit my job. Or if I don't achieve

24:52

at this certain level of performance, I might

24:54

lose my job. And that's really scary. And

24:56

so it's a yeah, it's a really a

24:59

bind for people. Yeah. And

25:01

I've witnessed this in my wife's situation. And

25:03

it's again, easier, as I said earlier, to

25:05

see it in others, where some of these

25:07

concerns start to be brought up. And

25:09

the promises are, well, let's just get through the

25:12

holiday season or let's get through Black Friday, or

25:14

we're going to make those changes in Q1 of

25:16

next year. And Q2, don't worry, we're hiring more

25:18

help. And it can just

25:20

feel like you're staring into the abyss like,

25:22

hey, I raised this concern, I've tried to

25:24

communicate it in a way that's team focused,

25:27

not just about myself. And the

25:29

solutions just feel further and further out and

25:31

don't actually feel as you were saying earlier,

25:33

get at the root of the problem, you

25:35

know, free massages sound great, a little bit

25:37

extra help with childcare sounds great at the

25:39

surface. But if your workload and chronic stress

25:41

is at an all time high, those

25:44

are just handling some symptoms and not the

25:46

root issue. Yeah, that's right.

25:48

In that regard, I'm curious,

25:50

would you say that a

25:53

burnout in these days is

25:55

over or under diagnosed, even

25:58

if we include self-dignition? diagnoses

26:00

as well. You

26:02

know, that is a great question. I

26:05

don't really know the answer to it

26:07

because I do think there's a lot

26:09

of talk about burnout. I actually think

26:11

sometimes people use the word burnout to

26:13

describe things that aren't very severe. There's

26:16

no real criteria for this. I

26:18

don't know if it's right or wrong, but people

26:20

say, I'm so burnt out when they're just having

26:22

a couple of rough days. I tend to think

26:24

about it as more of a chronic thing. Burnout

26:27

has a big impact on your life when it's

26:29

really extreme burnout and it tends to last a

26:32

while. It's kind of hard to move out of

26:34

it. So in that sense, maybe it's a little

26:36

bit over-diagnosed, which

26:38

is that people are using that

26:40

term pretty freely. But I

26:42

also think at the same time, there's a

26:44

lot of people out there who are chronically

26:46

stressed and probably at least teetering on the

26:49

edge of burnout who aren't really saying much

26:51

about it. So that's a

26:53

great question, Michael, and I don't know. I

26:55

think we're seeing more conversations about

26:57

it and more acknowledgement of it,

26:59

which in my mind is

27:01

a really good thing because that is one thing

27:03

that could potentially move the needle on this a

27:06

little bit is for people to talk about it.

27:08

And some of the conversations we're seeing in the

27:10

media these days about things like, quote,

27:12

quiet quitting, where people are just saying, I'm

27:14

not going above and beyond at work anymore.

27:16

The cost is too high. I

27:19

think that those kinds of conversations are actually

27:21

helpful, even though some people might have

27:24

an issue with that. They don't like

27:26

that concept. That's fine. But

27:28

people are just talking more about it.

27:30

And in my mind, that's a really

27:32

important step is let's just discuss

27:35

what's happening here culturally. That might

27:37

move the needle more than we

27:39

realize. Well, regardless

27:41

of it being people identifying it

27:43

and way too much or under

27:46

diagnosing it, there are

27:49

great tools that you've

27:51

put in the book to deal with this

27:53

either or. So we should get into those.

27:55

And the first part of that, and we've

27:57

talked about this multiple times on the show.

28:00

But it's incredibly important, which is

28:02

psychological flexibility. So if you can

28:04

define that for our

28:06

audience, so we can go from there. Yeah,

28:08

psychological flexibility. This concept comes

28:10

from acceptance and commitment therapy,

28:12

which is my book is

28:14

an act for burnout

28:17

book. I think that there's

28:19

a few different pieces of psychological flexibility

28:21

that are important here. It's

28:23

really about being able to feel your feelings and

28:25

have your thoughts come and go

28:29

from a place of

28:31

awareness and openness and being

28:33

really present with what is instead of struggling

28:36

against it, it's allowing it and being sort

28:38

of open and aware of your inner experience.

28:42

And I think there can be a

28:44

bit of a transformation there when it

28:47

comes to burnout, which is, again, instead

28:49

of detaching or disengaging, it's allowing yourself

28:51

to feel all of this, but from

28:53

a place of openness and awareness instead

28:56

of getting caught up in that internal

28:58

struggle. And then it's also about moving

29:00

toward your values and toward whatever a

29:02

meaningful life is to you in

29:04

an effective way. So very centered on your

29:07

values and what's

29:09

going to give you a sense of purpose

29:12

and noticing when you're caught in some

29:14

behavior patterns that might not be so

29:16

helpful so that you can respond effectively

29:18

to whatever the situation happens to be. And

29:20

that can look like all kinds of

29:22

different things. I mean, all kinds of

29:24

behavior patterns that might not necessarily be

29:26

helping with the problem of burnout. So

29:29

in looking at those personas earlier,

29:31

it sounds like a lot of

29:33

those personas move you away

29:35

from your emotions and give

29:38

you a reason to disassociate or not

29:40

engage with them, whether it be perfectionism

29:42

or people pleasing or being the busy

29:44

bee. We're doing activities and

29:46

taking actions that don't actually deal with

29:48

the emotions that we're feeling. We're acting

29:50

out of a sense of trying to

29:52

fulfill this identity or trying to fulfill

29:55

others' wants and needs of us. So

29:57

if you're in that situation, this

29:59

idea like, okay, well, recognizing these

30:01

emotions, understanding and bringing some empathy

30:03

and compassion to myself around these

30:05

emotions, that can feel very intimidating

30:07

for someone who's worked very hard

30:09

to avoid feeling and recognizing emotions.

30:11

So if you're in that situation,

30:13

what are some of the steps

30:16

we can take to start to

30:18

identify, recognize these emotions and process

30:20

them in a more healthy way

30:22

than getting more busy, being more

30:24

of a perfectionist or procrastinating? Yeah,

30:26

I mean, every single one of

30:28

those examples has at its

30:30

root some sort of control

30:32

or avoidance component, right? So

30:34

you're trying really hard to reduce your stress

30:37

or to feel better or to, you know,

30:39

in the short term, a lot of these

30:41

things do feel better. And so the first

30:43

step, you know, you really need some awareness.

30:46

First, you need to notice, okay, I'm in

30:48

this cycle, it's not really working for me,

30:50

maybe it is driven by some sort of

30:52

control or avoidance. So having that

30:55

awareness, and then the here's

30:57

the hard thing, this is maybe the bad

30:59

news for people who are listening is they

31:01

also have to be willing to face that

31:04

discomfort that's showing up that you're trying so

31:06

hard to avoid, you know, if you may,

31:08

there may be some sense of,

31:10

I don't really want

31:13

to do that, because the thing that's hard

31:15

for me is really uncomfortable, you know, it

31:17

might be stress, it could

31:19

be anxiety, fear, in some

31:22

types of roles, it

31:24

could be, you know, sadness, or just

31:27

your own fears about your own abilities

31:29

or something like that. And so when

31:31

you're starting to shift some of this,

31:34

sometimes it's pretty uncomfortable to step out

31:36

of those patterns. For instance,

31:38

if the perfectionist lets go and says, Okay,

31:41

this is good enough, I'm gonna, you

31:43

know, submit this and go home.

31:46

They might feel a sense of, oh, I

31:48

don't know, anxiety around whether it was good

31:51

enough or not. And I think that can

31:53

be really hard for people or the people

31:55

pleaser saying no for the first time to

31:57

their boss, I can't do that project. That's

32:00

going to be really painful. And so that

32:02

skill of willingness to feel, that's

32:05

probably the primary thing that I'm

32:08

suggesting. And that is

32:11

so counterintuitive as well. I mean, I can

32:13

imagine that right now, everyone listening is like

32:15

face-palming and going like, what is this, what

32:17

are they telling me? Like I should feel

32:20

all of that yucky stuff. I've been working

32:22

years to get away from it. If I'm

32:24

finally productive enough, if I'm finally competent

32:27

enough, then I don't have to feel

32:29

that stuff anymore. But

32:31

here's the catch. If you

32:34

busy yourself day in and day out,

32:37

running away from that stuff, you

32:39

can't move towards what

32:41

is really important for you. What

32:44

is really giving meaning to your life. Because

32:46

most of the time you're just trying to

32:48

numb out, run away, avoid and control all

32:50

of these emotions. And what

32:52

you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is to

32:54

open the door and say, hey, look, I have

32:57

a lot of important stuff to do. I

32:59

know that I'm going to feel perfectionistic

33:01

or anxious or stressed out about this.

33:04

But why don't I allow that stuff

33:06

to just sit there next to me

33:09

while I'm doing those things that are

33:11

very important so we don't add that

33:13

struggle against the thoughts, against the emotions

33:16

to our goal pursuit and our

33:19

value pursuit. I think in

33:21

a lot of our clients that we work

33:23

with directly, anger is one of those emotions, especially

33:26

as a man, that they're trying

33:28

to control and move away from.

33:31

And unfortunately, those actions

33:33

that they're taking, whether it's working hard

33:35

or packing their schedule, or maybe it's

33:37

numbing with some substances, the anger then

33:39

spills out in other areas. It might

33:41

be in your personal relationships, it might

33:43

be towards your spouse, it might be

33:46

towards your coworkers in a very passive

33:48

aggressive way in your communication style. And

33:50

oftentimes it's really hard to identify, I'm just

33:53

feeling angry about the situation that I'm in.

33:55

I'm angry that I'm not achieving, I'm angry

33:57

that I hadn't gotten that promotion this year.

34:00

I'm angry that that project failed and

34:02

we find ourselves trapped by that anger

34:04

But it's really scary to admit that

34:07

you actually are angry, especially as a

34:09

man Yeah, and

34:11

I think that anger is such a

34:13

fascinating emotion. Actually as I go on

34:15

my career, I I'm more and

34:17

more Interested in

34:19

anger I would say because I

34:22

think that yeah people have to

34:24

use their anger effectively I often see

34:26

people with burnout who are very irritated

34:28

just very frustrated and angry But if

34:30

you ask yourself and you know, it

34:32

can be unhelpful when people get really

34:35

stuck in anger But if you ask

34:37

yourself, what's my anger telling

34:39

me about what's going on here? I

34:41

mean, sometimes it's just random like I don't like that

34:43

person cutting me off in traffic or something like this

34:46

You know, it's not that deep but sometimes

34:48

it actually can be deep like if you're

34:51

chronically angry in your work role there

34:54

might be some sense of injustice

34:57

or There's something

34:59

about this situation that's not working for

35:01

me or maybe your boundaries are being

35:03

violated I I actually love to tune

35:05

into it in a sense of is

35:08

there some wisdom in my anger? And

35:11

if you can step back from anger a

35:13

little bit and get some distance from that

35:15

hot, you know adrenaline feeling of anger you

35:18

can actually use it to Think

35:21

about okay, what needs to change here? Do I need

35:23

to speak up about something? There's something going on here

35:25

that's just not working for me. And if so, what

35:28

am I gonna do about it? With

35:30

that I think the problem that we see

35:32

time and time again and we talked about

35:34

act and we are huge fans of act

35:37

But when some of our listeners here act

35:39

for the first time they hear acceptance and

35:42

it's like well I just have to

35:44

accept the situation I have to accept that's

35:46

out of my control and acceptance isn't actually

35:48

in that definition What we're talking about here

35:50

around what's causing the burnout sometimes accepting the

35:53

things you can't change might actually mean you

35:55

have to make a change In terms of

35:57

changing career change in location change in an

35:59

environment It's not just a blanket statement

36:01

of, well, take whatever the world sends your way

36:03

and be a doormat level

36:06

of acceptance. It's certainly about

36:08

creating change. If we don't accept the

36:10

situation and have a radical acceptance of

36:12

it, then how can we begin to

36:14

take responsibility to do the things that

36:16

we need to do to make

36:19

those changes? And the other thing about

36:21

anger, and I find it utterly fascinating,

36:24

is that anger is one of

36:26

the emotions that pushes you outside

36:28

of your natural behaviors

36:30

because it is a survival

36:33

mechanism. It is there to

36:35

protect you. So

36:37

you're going to do things

36:39

when you're angry that are

36:41

uncharacteristically you, which freaks

36:44

people out because

36:46

they're going into the unknown. They're

36:49

using behaviors that they're not

36:52

comfortable with, and they're

36:54

going to see a side of them that

36:57

they've never seen before, and that can

36:59

scare them. But I think

37:02

for some, it could actually thrill

37:04

them a bit as well. And

37:07

so because of that, it can be

37:09

scary. But if

37:11

we're going to need to create change, if we're

37:14

going to need to do things and

37:16

go into the unknown for the first time, well,

37:19

anger is a great motivator. It

37:21

is a great place to start to push

37:24

you into the arena so you

37:26

can do the things you need to do. I

37:28

think most importantly, though, you just don't want

37:30

it to consume you to where

37:33

that's all you see is anger. Yeah,

37:36

I think sometimes people get so

37:38

stuck in that righteous anger, and

37:40

it can, as you're saying, it

37:43

can feel really powerful

37:45

and sometimes actually feels kind of good

37:47

to be in that place. I

37:49

just read a study about this recently, and

37:51

I can't remember the source off the top

37:53

of my head, but about how people who

37:55

have a little bit of anger

37:58

often will be out in the world doing it. things,

38:00

right? It can drive social

38:02

change. So it can actually be really channeled for good,

38:05

but you do have to be a little careful there

38:07

because it can also get you into all kinds of

38:09

trouble, of course. I'm sure everyone's

38:11

aware it can be problematic, but you know,

38:13

if you channel it effectively, it can be

38:16

your friend. So when

38:18

we think about acceptance commitment therapy for our

38:20

audience who may not be familiar, why

38:23

do you believe it's such a great way

38:25

to make our way through and manage burnout

38:27

if we're actually feeling some of those symptoms

38:29

and frustrations we've talked about earlier? Well,

38:32

there's a couple of reasons why I really think,

38:34

to me, it's the best

38:36

clinical fit for working with

38:38

burnout and for helping people prevent burnout,

38:40

in part because it's very

38:43

contextual and so in the acceptance

38:45

and commitment therapy philosophy

38:48

and framework, all human behavior makes sense

38:50

in context. I think that's very much

38:52

true for burnout. You really have to

38:54

look at the situation and the context

38:57

and what's driving it and

38:59

it makes sense to have

39:01

burnout if you're in a chronically stressful

39:04

situation. And so I think

39:06

it actually adds a dose of self-compassion because

39:08

people can say, it's not my fault. It makes

39:10

sense that I'm feeling this way and that this

39:12

is happening to me. And then

39:15

also acceptance and commitment therapy

39:17

is really about helping people

39:19

engage in their lives in

39:21

a meaningful way. And that's what it

39:23

comes down to. That's the ultimate goal

39:25

in acceptance and commitment therapy. And

39:28

because burnout, one of the hallmarks

39:30

of burnout is the sense of

39:32

detachment and disengagement, I think

39:34

the goal is the same. If you want to get

39:36

out of burnout, it's because you want to enjoy

39:39

your life. You want to live fully and

39:41

when you're burnt out, you're just not. And

39:44

so I think that the philosophy of act

39:46

and the goal of act really fits with

39:48

what's happening with burnout. And

39:51

we can add here because we're

39:53

using act so much in our coaching

39:55

programs as well that I feel like

39:58

there's so much to talk about. when

40:00

it comes to ACT, there are six core

40:02

processes of change. And we've just talked about

40:04

one. We've talked about experiential

40:06

avoidance or acceptance. So

40:10

it's important for our listeners to not

40:12

have this idea that ACT is all

40:15

about exactly just one thing that

40:17

make room for your emotions. But there

40:19

are like five others. And they're all

40:22

intertwined. And they work together. And

40:25

I think maybe we can

40:28

put a little bit of a

40:30

spotlight on dealing with unhelpful thoughts.

40:33

In my own experience, I found that

40:35

that is something that clicks

40:37

with the end user, if

40:40

you will, a little bit

40:42

faster. Because we're mostly dealing

40:44

with over-sinkers and over-analyzers that

40:46

are paralyzed by that. And

40:49

to look at the

40:51

thought process that's going on and how

40:53

to disarm that a little bit and

40:55

make it more useful in the service

40:57

of our values and our goals, can

41:00

we take a little detour and look at

41:02

that facet of ACT as well, maybe? Absolutely.

41:05

I think that's an important one because

41:07

often people do get in that pattern

41:09

of overthinking, of self-criticism.

41:11

We get into some narratives

41:13

around our work roles where

41:17

we might be experiencing burnout. So for

41:19

instance, I have

41:21

to achieve to feel worthy. I

41:24

can't take a break. We have

41:26

these beliefs that add

41:28

fuel to the fire of burnout, so

41:31

to speak. So often

41:33

people are cynical, negative,

41:36

fixated on blame.

41:38

Or I mean, all kinds of interesting things can

41:40

happen at the level of your thoughts when you're

41:42

in a place of stress and burnout. I mean,

41:44

you're up all night worrying about all the things

41:47

you have to do. Or you

41:50

can think of your own experience

41:52

of how your thoughts are going

41:55

in terms of their content when you're

41:57

really stressed out. You don't really think.

42:00

see things in a very balanced point

42:02

of view. And so with acceptance and

42:04

commitment therapy, we work on what they

42:06

usually call cognitive diffusion, which is about

42:08

getting some distance from your thoughts, right?

42:10

Seeing them for what they are, taking

42:12

a step back from them so that

42:14

instead of being so consumed by those

42:17

types of thoughts and narratives and beliefs,

42:19

we can see them for what they are. So you might

42:21

say something like, wow, I'm being really hard on myself today.

42:24

Or I'm really feeling like it's the end of the world.

42:27

If I don't get this project done perfectly

42:29

on time, and we can take a

42:31

step back and say, well, you know,

42:34

the world will probably keep on spinning,

42:37

and at least see that for what it is. And

42:41

there is something about the process of doing

42:43

that that can be really helpful, I think,

42:45

to get just a more balanced perspective on

42:47

things. Because when we're in that place, it

42:49

just feels like that's the truth, you know?

42:52

And so I think that when people are

42:54

in that place, and they can start to

42:56

do a little bit of that work, they

42:58

can really see a big transformation. And if

43:01

anyone is listening to this is

43:03

wondering, what are those beliefs or

43:05

narratives or feelings that they're tied

43:08

to that they need to diffuse

43:10

from or get some space from?

43:12

Well, we went over five of

43:14

those personas earlier, the busy bee,

43:16

the perfectionist, the people pleaser. Now,

43:18

you may not think of yourself

43:20

initially as a people pleaser. But

43:23

if you're one of those people who is

43:25

at work, and you want to do all

43:27

of these things so that everyone around you

43:30

is happy and in a good mood and

43:32

feeling good, right? That is a belief that

43:34

you are holding to yourself that is that

43:37

is creating these stresses. Yeah.

43:40

And it can be so subtle. I think

43:43

even the way that our work sometimes becomes

43:45

a really big part of our identity. And

43:47

we start to think, well,

43:49

I have to do a good job at this

43:52

in order to be accepted or acceptable to others.

43:54

So it really kind of comes down to a

43:56

fundamental sense of worthiness

43:58

and wanting to valued by others

44:01

and a sense of belonging, but it

44:03

can become so extreme that it's like,

44:05

well, if I don't perform at the

44:07

top level in this particular role, then

44:10

it's almost like

44:12

then who am I? And that's where, again, that

44:14

slippery slope, it's okay to have work that you

44:16

care... It's great to have work that you care

44:18

about and to be attached to your work, but

44:21

if you over identify

44:23

with your work role,

44:25

then your life gets pretty upended

44:27

when that's not going well or

44:29

we lose other parts of

44:32

ourselves and we lose, again, psychological flexibility.

44:34

If all I am is my work

44:36

role, what about the other

44:38

parts of my life? Right. And

44:40

with that, we've seen in a lot of

44:42

our clients that identity take over to the

44:45

detriment of relationships and community in their life.

44:48

And when they join the X Factor

44:50

Accelerator community or they work with us

44:52

and they find other people are also

44:54

going through this burnout, are also recognizing

44:56

that that work identity has grown in

44:58

such a way that they've let relationships

45:00

slide, time with their spouse, significant other

45:02

slide. They've chose to focus more

45:04

on the things they can control than just be

45:06

open and honest and vulnerable with people in their

45:09

life. It actually creates that

45:11

isolation that we talked about earlier that

45:13

can be very fertile ground for the

45:15

burnout and can actually make the burnout

45:17

worse. And I think right now, I'm

45:19

very curious as someone who sees a

45:22

lot of patients with burnout, is

45:24

there a seasonality to it? I found in

45:26

working with our clients that there is a

45:28

lot of sense of, I didn't achieve as

45:30

much as I wanted to this year, or

45:32

I didn't see those goals that I had.

45:35

And now they're reminded of that and they're

45:37

feeling really overwhelmed with the sense of dread

45:39

or the sense that they didn't make

45:41

the year that they wanted happen. And

45:44

with that, making more and more choices that lead

45:46

to further burnout or don't even recognize that part

45:48

of the reason they're feeling that at the end

45:51

of the year is due to burnout. Yeah,

45:53

that's a good question. I definitely think

45:55

that they're, back

45:58

to this idea of context, that they're are

46:00

situational factors above and beyond

46:02

just the regular work

46:05

that you do that can contribute to

46:07

burnout. So yeah, holiday season,

46:09

end of the year, a lot of jobs

46:11

are very busy during that when those winter

46:13

months. And then of course, you have the

46:15

darkness and the cold and that kind of

46:17

thing. You know, we also

46:19

live in a world where there's a lot

46:21

happening in the news. And you know, that

46:24

fluctuates over the course of time. And here

46:26

at this particular moment that we're recording this,

46:28

there's just, it's winter, a

46:30

lot of people's jobs are very

46:32

busy, short staffed. And then you

46:35

look at the news and read about all kinds of just

46:38

really distressing upsetting things happening. And

46:40

maybe there's always some level of

46:42

that. But I think you almost

46:44

get into this perfect storm situation

46:46

where you have these moments in time

46:48

in your life where it just feels like a lot.

46:51

And so absolutely, depending on the seasonal

46:53

nature of your particular job, that can

46:55

absolutely be the case. As

46:57

much as you go

47:00

on any social media and see

47:02

all the incredibly terrible things that

47:04

are happening at all times all

47:07

around the world, how much is

47:09

actually affecting you and

47:11

your day to day, every day

47:14

life? Sure, you want

47:16

to be involved. Sure. You want

47:18

to get, feel

47:21

like, hey, I have a hand in

47:24

helping this or any of those things. And

47:27

that's great. But

47:30

at the end of the day,

47:32

you have yourself and your obligations

47:34

and your responsibilities that need pretty

47:37

much a lot of your focus, if not

47:39

all of it. Well, for many,

47:42

I think the slippery slope is that escapism

47:44

that, you know, the media and the news

47:46

provide of like, hey, you know, let me

47:48

just scroll a little bit more. I'm feeling

47:50

overwhelmed. Let me get some digital dopamine. And

47:53

of course, the news headlines can be negative

47:55

and compounding to that stress that you're

47:58

feeling. I think for those in audience

48:00

who might be feeling this

48:02

way or now recognizing it, I'm curious

48:04

to hear from you what the road

48:06

to recovery looks like. I know it's

48:08

different for everyone. I know it's more

48:10

complex and sometimes simpler for others to

48:12

untangle themselves. But when you

48:14

do find patients in this state of burnout,

48:17

you could just paint a rough picture of

48:19

what it looks like to get yourself back

48:21

to normal and feeling good and moving forward.

48:24

Well, we talked about some of the internal

48:26

things that you can do already. I

48:29

think that sometimes it can also

48:31

be worthwhile to take a look at, okay,

48:33

what needs to change? How can

48:35

I reconnect to what matters

48:38

to me, to purpose, to vitality?

48:41

And so I think sometimes we can do that in

48:43

small ways and sometimes we can do that in

48:45

big ways. Sometimes people want to

48:47

make a really big change, like leaving their

48:49

job. Sometimes people need to

48:51

leave a situation, like

48:53

a very toxic workplace or something

48:56

like that. Sometimes people, maybe

48:58

it might be a smaller scale thing, like reaching

49:00

out for more support than they have been. It

49:03

could be setting a boundary like for myself, I'm

49:05

not going to check the news after 7 p.m.

49:09

It doesn't do the world any good for me

49:11

to be doom scrolling. So that's maybe a boundary

49:14

that someone might want to set. Or

49:17

it could be taking a look at how they're

49:19

using their time and making a shift there. If

49:22

people are finding that they're just maxed out, they

49:24

might need to redistribute things

49:26

in terms of their schedule. And

49:29

it can be sometimes some of those daily habits,

49:31

like I really need to stop with the alcohol

49:33

at night. That's not helping me. I need to

49:36

get more sleep or I don't

49:38

know, some of those little kinds of day-to-day things

49:41

that can help you recharge. But

49:43

the main thing I would say if I was

49:45

going to give one blanket piece of advice really

49:48

does go back to that thing we've

49:51

talked about multiple times already, which is

49:53

getting support. I

49:55

think often when people are burned out, they're not

49:58

necessarily asking for help or talking to anybody. about

50:00

what's going on. It could be co-workers. Maybe you

50:02

need them to pitch in and help you out.

50:04

It could be just someone in your personal life

50:07

to say, I'm really struggling. I need some support.

50:09

It could be a professional. You know, you could,

50:11

if it's really bad burnout, you could reach out

50:13

to get some professional help from a therapist or

50:15

a coach or something. So yeah,

50:18

I mean, again, it really kind of depends on your

50:20

situation. But I do think one thing that

50:22

burnout can do is make us

50:24

take a look at what's working and what's

50:26

not working and what needs a change. And

50:29

from there, we can maybe get to a better place. That

50:32

room for reflection around so many of those

50:34

key areas, as you talked about, and I

50:36

know one of the pieces that

50:39

we do with our clients is look

50:41

at habits and either positive

50:43

habits and their negative habits. And sometimes those

50:45

negative habits can take over like having one

50:48

too many glasses of wine that then ruins

50:50

their sleep and doesn't get into the gym

50:52

in the morning and a helpful

50:54

visual of, okay, what's going on with some

50:56

of these habits that I've worked on? Are

50:58

they letting them slide? Are they in the

51:00

yellow? Are they red for time for

51:02

a long period of time

51:04

can really be that warning sign of

51:07

like, okay, I'm putting myself vitality wise

51:09

in a state where chronic stress is

51:11

really going to put me in a

51:13

place potentially for burnout or actually I'm

51:16

in burnout. And also

51:18

recognizing that there are small steps

51:20

we can take now. Maybe

51:22

it's some vulnerability. Maybe it's even sharing this

51:25

podcast episode with some friends to open a

51:27

discussion around how you're feeling about it as

51:29

a way to say, Hey, are you feeling

51:31

this way too? Are you really recognizing some

51:33

of these signs in me that I myself

51:36

am struggling to see? I know

51:38

for me and my wife, that was really key

51:40

in moments where I was really struggling with burnout

51:42

and her recognizing like, you know, I'm not the

51:44

type of person in traffic to use the horn

51:46

and screen obscenities. But you know, a couple weeks

51:48

in a row of me getting really bent out

51:50

of shape and traffic, it's like what's going on?

51:53

Well, I'm really stressed at work and I'm really

51:55

stressed that I'm not meeting the deadlines that I

51:57

have for myself and letting down my team and

51:59

it's allowing me now to act out of

52:01

character in traffic in LA, those

52:04

are the simple conversations that we could start to have with

52:06

our loved ones too. And I

52:08

know it can be delicate. I'd love to

52:10

just hear your perspective on, if we recognize

52:12

some of these signs and symptoms in others,

52:14

how can we maybe start to have that

52:16

conversation to help support those around us who

52:18

are struggling with burnout if we ourselves might

52:20

not be feeling it? Yeah, I absolutely

52:23

think so. I mean, this is where

52:25

a little self-awareness, but also checking in

52:27

with people who might notice the signs

52:29

in our self is really key. And

52:32

so having that level, having

52:34

that ability to look at yourself, I'll

52:36

give a personal example just this morning. So

52:38

I'm leaving on a massive holiday road trip

52:40

tomorrow. I have a really

52:43

long to-do list. I knew I had this interview

52:45

today. I have a few clients. And

52:47

I was sitting there, I could just feel my

52:49

nerves buzzing in my body and my mind was

52:52

all over the place. And I said to

52:54

myself, I did not have a whole lot of

52:56

time this morning before my first appointment

52:58

at 9 a.m. I said,

53:00

I have to exercise. It's only gonna be 20 minutes. It's

53:03

gonna come at the cost of doing my hair and

53:05

all that kind of thing. I

53:07

just, I can feel the stress in my body.

53:10

And so I did it. And I think that

53:12

that's the moment, right? Where we can maybe

53:14

do something different that's gonna help us recharge

53:16

a little bit, help us through that situation

53:18

versus my instinct would be to say, I'm

53:20

gonna do as much as I can possibly

53:22

get done in this 20 minutes.

53:25

But it's that intentionality. And so yeah, absolutely.

53:27

And I hope conversations like this one help

53:30

prevent burnout because I think if you can

53:32

catch some of this earlier, you don't get

53:34

to that point where you hate your life,

53:36

you hate your job, you're completely exhausted for

53:38

months on end. That's my hope anyway. Cause

53:41

I think I found since that period in

53:43

my own life, I can catch

53:45

it earlier, talk about it,

53:47

make some changes, set some boundaries, take

53:49

care of myself. And then it doesn't

53:51

get to that extreme point. That

53:53

is certainly the ideal outcome. And thank you so

53:56

much for taking time with us today from your

53:58

busy schedule. We love asking. every

54:00

one of our guests what their X factor

54:02

is. What do you think makes you unique

54:04

and extraordinary, Debbie? I think I'm

54:06

pretty brave. I don't know if this is

54:08

that extraordinary, but I think sometimes I'm willing

54:10

to kind of go for it with things

54:12

like, you know, starting my

54:14

own podcast or just, you know, kind of putting

54:17

this book out there or something like that. I

54:19

don't know if anything I'm doing

54:21

is truly that extraordinary, but I do. I think

54:23

I have a certain level of

54:25

courage that I'm proud of. So I'll

54:28

go with that. Well, we're proud of your

54:30

courage as well in writing the book. And I'm

54:32

sure it's going to be very helpful to a

54:34

number of members of our audience who might be

54:36

feeling some of these warning signals we talked about

54:38

on this episode. Well, thanks. I really appreciate

54:40

it. Thank you so much. It was

54:42

great having you. Where can our audience find out more

54:45

about you and the book? Yeah, I mean,

54:47

the book's pretty easy to find act for

54:49

burnouts anywhere you like to buy your books.

54:51

I'm online at dr. Debbie sorensen.com is my

54:53

webpage. I have a blog there and I'm

54:55

also on some social media. And then of

54:58

course, my podcast Psychologists Off the Clock, which

55:00

I think is kind of a cousin

55:02

of yours because we have had

55:05

some overlap quite a bit, especially

55:07

Michael's engagement in both. So if

55:09

you like hearing the sound of my voice,

55:11

there's plenty more on Psychologists Off the Clock.

55:14

Thank you, Debbie. Thanks so much. Thank

55:16

you. A

55:27

big shout out comes from Bauer, who wanted to

55:29

write and talk about his journey through

55:31

the Articharm X Factor Accelerator. He

55:33

writes, Hey, all you high achievers out

55:36

there, it's Bauer. Have you

55:38

ever felt burnout creeping in or feeling stuck

55:40

or disconnected from your career? Well, shortly

55:43

after ending into my 30s, I became

55:45

depressed and started dreading waking up every

55:47

day into the usual grind. I felt

55:49

as if the days were starting to

55:52

blur into each other and I was

55:54

becoming numb. Now I had been a

55:56

fan of the Articharm podcast for quite

55:58

some time and decided that

56:00

it was time to stop passively

56:03

listening and start taking action.

56:05

Now I was amazed at how

56:07

attentive AJ and Johnny

56:09

were towards my challenges and how

56:11

quickly things began to change. This

56:13

program revitalized my entire outlook. It

56:15

wasn't just about my career looking

56:17

at the numbers, going to work

56:19

every day. It was about getting

56:21

in touch with my core values.

56:24

Suddenly my career wasn't a

56:26

grind. It was a meaningful

56:28

journey aligned with what truly mattered

56:30

to me. It helped me fight

56:33

burnout and gave me a fresh perspective on

56:35

my career that's in sync with who I

56:37

am at my core. Even

56:39

my friends have commented that I

56:41

seem happier and more engaged with

56:43

life. Now if you're battling

56:46

burnout or singing a new perspective in

56:48

your career, this program is your answer.

56:51

You're not born to go to work

56:53

and pay bills. It's about embracing a

56:56

career that resonates with your values. Give

56:59

it a shot and watch how it

57:01

redefines your career path. Trust me, it's

57:04

worth every second. Well thank you very

57:06

much, Bauer, and it has been a

57:08

pleasure working with you. Now if you've

57:10

gotten value from our podcast, head on

57:13

over to your favorite podcast player and

57:15

rate and review the show. It gives

57:17

us visibility, helps others find the show,

57:20

and it means the world to us.

57:23

Now before we head out, I'd like

57:25

to give a huge thank you to

57:27

our producers Michael Harold and Eric

57:29

Montgomery. Until next week, everybody

57:32

go out there and crush

57:34

it!