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all states in situations. Brett

0:42

McKay here and welcome to another edition of the art

0:44

of Manliness podcast. When we think about

0:46

the benefits of exercise, we tend think

0:48

of what it does for our body, making us leaner,

0:51

stronger, and healthier. But my guess is

0:53

out to emphasize the powerful effect of physical

0:55

activity has on our brains too, and just

0:57

how much our bodies and minds are connected.

0:59

Doctor Jennifer Heis is a professor, the director

1:02

of the Neuro Fit Lab, which studies the effects

1:04

of exercise on brain health, and the author

1:06

of move the body, heal the mind. Today

1:08

on the show, Jennifer and I first discuss how

1:10

physical activity can help treat mental disorders.

1:13

She shares the way that low to moderate intensity

1:15

exercise can mitigate anxiety, and how

1:17

short balance of intense exercise can be

1:19

used as exposure therapy for treating panic

1:21

disorders. We also talked about the phenomenon

1:23

of inflammation induced depression and

1:26

how exercise can alleviate it. And Jennifer

1:28

shares how size can strengthen someone's intent

1:30

at sobriety as well as prevent addiction

1:32

in the first place. From there, we turn

1:34

the way exercise can not only mitigate mental

1:36

maladies but actually optimize the mind.

1:39

Jennifer shares how physical activity fights aging,

1:41

it can enhance your focus and creativity. We

1:43

discuss how exercise can improve your sleep,

1:45

how can be used to shift your circadian clock, Whether

1:48

it's okay to work out close to your bedtime.

1:50

After shows over check out our show notes at A0M

1:52

dot s slash booth the body.

2:10

Alright. Jennifer Heist, welcome to the show.

2:12

Thanks so much for having me. So you are

2:14

the director of the Neuro Fit Lab

2:16

at McMaster University in Canada. What

2:19

do you research at the Neuro Fit Lab? Yeah.

2:21

So my lab studies the benefits

2:23

of exercise for brain health. So we

2:25

look at the benefits of exercise for

2:27

mental health. Cognition and in the

2:29

prevention of Alzheimer's disease. And

2:31

how do you start exploring that connection between

2:34

physical activity and our mental health? So

2:36

it was back in graduate school.

2:38

I was studying sort of the fundamentals of

2:40

neuroscience. So how does the brain represent

2:43

who we are as people in our memories.

2:45

And it became really clear to me that something

2:48

was not quite right with my own brain.

2:50

I was having some pretty severe anxiety,

2:53

some intrusive thinking. And

2:56

I I went to the doctor. They

2:58

recommended I try an antidepressant. I

3:01

was very reluctant. And then a friend

3:03

recommended I try a cycling and

3:06

Magically, those bike rides soothed

3:08

my mind, they quieted my mind, and

3:10

it really had a profound shift

3:12

not just in my personal life. Giving

3:15

me a lot of peace, but also in

3:17

my professional life because I became fascinated

3:20

with understanding how exercise

3:22

was having such a profound effect on the

3:24

brain. And so that's where it all began

3:27

back in grad school and we've

3:29

been intensely studying it ever since.

3:31

And this idea of there's a connection

3:33

between our bodies and our mental

3:36

health. This is I mean, this is it's been

3:38

going on I I would say,

3:40

fifty years, but this is a break from Descartes.

3:43

Right? Who said -- Mhmm. -- famously said

3:45

the the brain and the mind are separate.

3:47

Right? The body is just the machine and

3:49

there's a soul inside the machine and

3:51

the body doesn't really have effect on the mind.

3:54

But what the research is showing is, no, we

3:56

are our minds. Our body is our minds.

3:58

Yeah. Oh, gosh. Descartes, he did

4:00

a lot of damage. I

4:02

mean, it was important the

4:05

mind body dualism that peace

4:07

set forth. Because prior to that, the

4:09

body was really mystified like

4:13

like a spiritualized religious, like

4:16

and and the study of it couldn't

4:18

take place. So he had to kinda

4:20

separate the mind and the body kinda spirit

4:22

and body to advance

4:25

medicine. But in doing so,

4:27

he removed basically, like,

4:29

the the shoulders up from

4:31

the study of medicine for such a long time

4:33

that we don't

4:35

fully understand how the brain works

4:37

and we don't fully understand how to

4:40

take care of our mind what

4:42

the biological basis are of mental

4:44

health. But yes, you're right. We are absolutely

4:47

paving the way new research is very

4:49

exciting, and we're starting to

4:51

piece things together. So you gotta book out.

4:53

It's called move the body, heal the mind, where

4:55

you make a very reader

4:57

friendly summary of this research

4:59

you've been doing at your lab, and you

5:01

explore how exercise and physical

5:03

activity can help different types

5:05

of mental health issues. And the first one

5:07

is anxiety. And I'm sure all of

5:09

us have read the articles or heard

5:11

the podcast about how anxiety is on the rise

5:13

in the West. What does your research

5:16

show about exercise's effect on

5:18

anxiety? So exercise

5:20

has a really profound effect on reducing

5:22

anxiety symptoms. And the effects

5:24

are felt immediately after

5:26

we exercise, so you go out for your workout.

5:29

And in that sort of acute phase,

5:31

as soon as you're done, you know, and you're like,

5:34

done, that gives us a

5:36

huge reprieve in our anxiety levels.

5:38

But even if we consist

5:40

go back to exercise, we get less

5:42

and less anxious. Now,

5:44

there's there's kind of an interesting play

5:47

here with intensity of exercise.

5:49

So, when

5:52

you're feeling especially anxious,

5:55

so if you're

5:57

already in a stressful situation

6:00

at in life, for example, then

6:02

intensive workouts may not be the

6:04

best mode to go to

6:07

because the exercise

6:09

stress will add on to

6:11

the stress in your life and

6:13

vigorous exercise as you

6:15

know mimics the

6:17

symptoms of anxiety, so your heart

6:19

will raise. It'll be difficult to

6:21

breathe. And

6:23

for a lot of people, this can create

6:26

a panic attack situation

6:28

where, you know, the heart is racing

6:30

so fast that they're afraid

6:32

they're gonna have a heart attack. So

6:34

when it comes to exercising for

6:37

anxiety, just kinda check-in

6:39

with yourself because sometimes too

6:41

intense is not good. And

6:43

the research shows that at that load

6:45

of moderate intensity,

6:49

you can really get a lot of benefits. And

6:51

the reason why is these

6:53

lighter intensity exercises release

6:55

this neurochemical called neuropeptide

6:58

y. And essentially, this is a

7:00

resiliency fact or the bathes the

7:02

brain, it bathes the the fear

7:04

centers, the amygdala, and helps

7:06

to essentially quiet those centers

7:08

down. So it's having this biochemical

7:11

effect to to give you that

7:13

anxiety relief. Yeah. The

7:15

neuropeptide y, I've read studies where

7:17

they've looked at navy seals And think

7:19

they typically have more neuropeptide

7:22

wide than the general population. It

7:24

might be a genetic thing and like they're just being

7:26

selected for that inadvertently. But

7:28

you're saying that exercise, even if you don't

7:30

have navy seal levels, neuropeptide y,

7:33

you can increase it. Is that is that increase

7:35

immediate? Yeah, the increase happens

7:37

immediately after, and it

7:39

lasts for about thirty minutes afterwards. Now,

7:42

the research done so far has only

7:44

shown that you have to do the exercise

7:46

to get the boost in neuropeptide. Why

7:48

there's no kind of residual effects

7:50

over the long term? So this, you

7:52

know, this is why consistency is

7:54

key. You know, so that every workout

7:56

that you put in, you get that boost. Now,

7:58

the cool thing about the navy seal studies

8:01

is that, you know, not all navy

8:03

seals have this abundance

8:05

of neuropeptide y. And the ones

8:07

that don't have as much, they're

8:10

the ones most likely to develop post

8:12

traumatic stress disorder. So this is

8:14

really a protective factor

8:16

for the brain against trauma

8:18

and stress. Okay. So you get the immediate

8:20

boost of repeptide wide when you

8:22

exercise, and that can help.

8:24

And if you do exercise consistently, it

8:26

can stave off anxiety or

8:28

mitigated. I mean, is there anything else that goes

8:30

on with exercise that helps

8:33

prevent anxiety in the long run? Like,

8:35

let's say you you do some intense

8:37

exercise when you're not in a state of

8:39

stress. Does that have any type of an

8:41

effect on long term anxiety?

8:43

Yeah, absolutely. So when we think

8:45

about this stress response, a lot

8:47

of anxiety stems from like

8:49

a maladaptive stress response. And this

8:51

stress response is this

8:53

balancing act between the sympathetic nervous

8:56

system like that fight or flight response and the

8:58

parasympathetic nervous system are the rest

9:00

and digest. And when

9:02

we use exercise like,

9:04

in a state of calm. Essentially,

9:06

we're training up our

9:08

stress response. So we're

9:10

activating this neuropathy nervous system when

9:12

we're vigorously going. And

9:14

then as soon as we stop, we

9:17

are flexing our parasympathetic

9:19

nervous system that rest and digest

9:21

so that it becomes stronger

9:23

and better able to help us recover

9:25

from stress. And so

9:27

by continuously, like, hitting

9:29

the stress system with exercise, we

9:33

can actually strengthen our stress

9:35

response, not just for exercise stress, but

9:37

for all stressors in our life.

9:39

And so Ultimately, what

9:41

happens is that when we experience a

9:43

stressful situation in our life, yeah, it

9:45

will activate the sympathetic nervous

9:47

system. But our parasympathetic nervous

9:49

and we'll be really strong and better able

9:51

to engage so that we stay more

9:54

calm and less reactive. Okay.

9:56

And I also you mentioned the book, you've also done

9:59

research and there's been research done on,

10:01

let's say, someone's got severe anxiety and they're

10:03

actually getting in talk therapy before exposure

10:05

therapy. Combining them with exercise can

10:07

actually give that a boost. Correct? Oh,

10:09

yeah. That's like a super cool finding.

10:11

Now this this is a bit tricky.

10:13

So people with

10:16

severe anxiety or like panic disorder,

10:18

when before I was

10:20

talking about how anxiety symptoms

10:22

really mimic the symptoms vigorous exercise.

10:25

Right? So the heart racing, difficulty breathing,

10:27

difficulty concentrating. So

10:29

this this vigorous exercise

10:31

is actually connected to this

10:33

Edex BOSHA therapy for people who have panic

10:35

disorder. So most most people

10:37

with panic disorder, they

10:39

avoid exercise and they

10:42

hate it. They especially

10:44

avoid vigorous exercise because

10:46

it evokes those symptoms that they

10:48

fear the most. Right? So there's this anxiety

10:51

sensitivity that makes them really

10:53

sensitive to vigorous exercise. But

10:55

it turns out that vigorous

10:57

exercise is the medicine that they need.

10:59

But in really short baby

11:01

doses. So for

11:04

example, one way to sort

11:06

of micro dose intense

11:08

exercise into their life would be just

11:10

doing like a few seconds of sprint.

11:12

And the idea is that it exposes

11:14

them so you you sprint

11:16

all out for like a few seconds.

11:18

And your heart immediately

11:20

picks up. It's difficult to

11:22

breathe. You stop. And

11:25

everything comes back down, and

11:27

you realize you're safe. But it

11:29

gives you that exposure to those

11:31

symptoms that you fear the most and

11:33

you, you know, over time with the

11:35

repetition of this, the exposure of

11:37

this, eventually those symptoms lose

11:39

their power and control over

11:41

you, and you're not afraid of them

11:43

anymore, and that then transfers

11:45

into the panic disorders

11:47

that you feel in your life. That's really

11:49

interesting. And I imagine too besides the

11:51

neuropeptide wide increasing and strengthening the

11:53

parents of aesthetic systems, but I imagine

11:55

exercise just moving your body gets you out

11:57

of your brain. Right? And part of the problem with the

11:59

anxiety is you're just worried about stuff that's

12:01

not really happening. And

12:03

moving your body, like, takes you away from that and

12:05

kinda gets you back into just the present.

12:07

Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. So the

12:10

mind, it has one track. You know, we can

12:12

only think about one thing at a time. And

12:14

when we're when we're our

12:16

heads are messed with anxiety. We're,

12:18

you know, focused on negativity and

12:21

just getting the mind to think

12:23

on something else, like the breath This

12:25

is, you know, meditative techniques often

12:27

focus on attention to the breath. But you can

12:29

couple that with exercise, so attention to

12:31

movement, attention to breath, You don't just

12:33

have to be sitting still. You can be moving

12:35

and it doesn't just have to be yoga. It could

12:37

be running or weight lifting. The the

12:39

point is you're focusing sort of on the

12:41

here and now. And it's grounded in

12:43

the body. Okay. So for anxiety

12:46

to sort of prevent anxiety or

12:48

reduce it in the long run, do that intense

12:50

stuff because it's gonna make you more resilient.

12:52

But if you're feeling stressed out

12:54

right now, take it easy because that might

12:56

just add to the stress. So, like, maybe a

12:58

a walk for example, would

13:00

be the thing you'd wanna do. Perfect.

13:02

Yep. That would be great. Okay. Let's

13:04

talk about another issue that's been on

13:06

the rise in the west, and that's depression.

13:08

And you start the book talking about, you know, the

13:10

usual response from many general practitioners. You

13:12

had this experience yourself. Did you go in? You're

13:14

just like, man, I'm It's been like a couple weeks.

13:17

I'm just feeling gray. I'm just feeling really

13:19

down. Well, the GP will say, well, you know,

13:21

here's an antidepressant. Why were

13:23

you hesitant to take the

13:25

antidepressant and what are some of the problems of

13:27

relying on antidepressants to treat

13:29

depression? Yeah, I was

13:31

reluctant to take the antidepressant, partly

13:35

because these drugs

13:37

have a profound

13:39

effect on the whole brain, not just for the

13:41

intended benefit to

13:43

reduce depression. And you know, I

13:45

was I was pretty scared

13:47

of of what alterations

13:49

would take place. And so I wanted to

13:51

just at least explore alternatives.

13:54

And for me, fortunately, my symptoms

13:57

were mild. I mean, some people don't have

13:59

that luxury. Their

14:01

symptoms may be too severe and they may

14:03

need immediate help. And the

14:05

antidepressant can be really beneficial in

14:07

transformatives for some people. So I want to

14:09

make sure that that message is

14:11

clear that it's not – I'm

14:13

not anti antidepressants, but

14:16

I do think that having

14:19

options is really important for people.

14:21

I mean, the first line of

14:24

defense for most general

14:26

practitioners or doctors is

14:29

is to prescribe an antidepressant and

14:31

we've seen that on the rise especially

14:33

for mild forms of

14:35

depression that may benefit from

14:38

other alternatives like

14:40

exercise. And so I

14:42

think it's important that we

14:45

educate our medical practitioners

14:47

on the benefits of these other

14:49

therapies and

14:52

sort of equip them with the tools. I don't think it's their

14:54

fault. I just don't think that they're trained. They're

14:56

trained really to prescribe drugs

14:58

and four

15:01

ailments. And so I think

15:03

that it really it comes

15:05

back to day card. Actually, you

15:07

know, this biomedical model and and we need

15:09

much more of a holistic approach to our

15:11

health. Well, something you talk about in the book

15:13

is that even when someone is

15:15

given an antidepressant, they don't always

15:17

respond to it. And that's

15:19

because depression, it isn't homogenous.

15:22

There could be different causes for it. And

15:24

it may not be a serotonin

15:26

problem. The depression could be caused by something

15:28

else. And one of the sources it could

15:30

be sources of depression, it could

15:32

be inflammation. We actually had a

15:34

guest on a few years ago

15:36

talking about the inflammation depression

15:38

connection. But can you can you

15:40

kind of summarize what we're governing about

15:42

the connection between inflammation and

15:44

depression? Yeah, it's super

15:46

fascinating. And this, I think,

15:48

is is the form of depression on

15:50

the rise because it's linked

15:52

to chronic stress. So when

15:54

we are experiencing chronic

15:57

stress as many people have

15:59

in the last several

16:01

years. What happens is

16:03

that the body was never intended

16:05

to deal with stress at such

16:07

a chronic level. It was really

16:09

designed to kind of deal with it acutely.

16:11

So the predator or whatever the

16:13

threat would be immediately in the

16:15

physical environment, and then it would either be

16:17

dealt with or not, and then the stress would

16:19

go away. Right? So it

16:21

wasn't like, today in modern

16:24

life, like, there's, you know, stress

16:26

after stress after stress, day after

16:28

day after day, we worry

16:30

which creates more stress the

16:32

uncertainty of situations create

16:34

even more stress. And so this chronic

16:38

stress that we're facing day in and

16:40

day out is really damaging the body.

16:42

And what it does is

16:44

it starts to damage the cells,

16:46

like physically damage the cells,

16:48

and This launches

16:50

a sterile immune response. And

16:52

so it's sterile because there's no

16:54

bacteria or virus in the body. It's

16:57

just the damaged cells from the

16:59

stress. And so the immune

17:01

system launches an

17:03

attack against these damaged

17:05

cells This elevates inflammation,

17:07

and that inflammation doesn't just stay

17:09

in the body, but it can start infiltrating into

17:12

the brain And when the

17:14

brain has too much inflammation, it

17:16

creates a lot of problems for

17:18

the natural functioning of the neurons.

17:20

And so things don't

17:22

function as well. And this can

17:24

lead to dysfunctions in neurochemicals, but

17:26

it can also lead to kind of

17:28

slowing of processing, brain

17:30

fog, depressed mood, and there's

17:32

the source of depression. Not

17:35

necessarily coming from the root

17:37

cause of like something you're

17:39

born with, a biochemical deficit

17:41

in serotonin production or some

17:43

other neurochemical, but a

17:46

lifestyle, the chronic

17:48

stress of life

17:50

is damaging the body in ways that

17:52

are are affecting the mood. Yeah. I mean, like, when

17:54

you're sick, thinking about that, when you're sick, okay, not only

17:56

do you feel bad, but, like, you get depressed, like,

17:58

you just wanna hunker down in a

18:01

blanket, And so, I mean, it kinda makes sense that there's a connection there. When

18:03

you feel depressed, you don't wanna do anything. When you're sick,

18:05

you don't wanna do anything. Yeah.

18:07

Yeah. And that's like an evolutionary advantage.

18:10

Right? Because if you're kind of antisocial

18:13

and you're home alone in

18:15

bed, you know, you're not gonna spread the back hero

18:17

virus around. And so that was actually

18:19

like an evolutionary advantage.

18:22

But now if inflammation is

18:24

being caused not by a back terrovirus,

18:26

but rather stress, then that

18:28

advantage is no longer and instead it just looks

18:30

like major depressive disorder. Can we --

18:32

are you able to screen for inflammation

18:35

caused depression? Well,

18:37

technically, yes, the research

18:39

suggests that certain cytokines,

18:41

these proinflammatory cytokines

18:44

can actually are

18:46

elevated more in people who have

18:48

pressure, especially drug resistant depression.

18:51

TNF alpha is one of them.

18:54

However, it's certainly routine

18:56

clinical practice, even though we've known

18:58

about this research for about ten years.

19:01

So, you know, again, we we need

19:03

to sort of up the medical community

19:05

to some of the newer research on mental

19:07

illness and how to treat it. So

19:09

one thing we they've discovered with people

19:11

with inflammation cause

19:13

depression that exercise helps.

19:15

But this is counterintuitive because

19:18

exercise is a

19:20

stressor. It causes inflammation. If you do a heavy weight

19:22

lifting session, your muscles get

19:24

inflamed to repair the damage you've

19:26

done. So how can something that

19:28

causes inflammation reduce

19:30

inflammation to help reduce depression. So

19:32

this is a beautiful thing about exercise.

19:35

You're right. You go out

19:37

for a hard run or a vigorous workout and

19:39

the body has an acute

19:42

inflammatory response and this is to

19:44

protect to your body while you're, you know, pushing

19:46

it hard. But as soon as you

19:48

stop, the exercising

19:50

muscles then release these

19:53

myokines that essentially

19:55

act like an inflammatory cleanup

19:57

crew, these anti inflammatory

19:59

cytokines then make

20:01

the body they clean up all that

20:03

inflammation that you produce from

20:05

exercising and then some so

20:07

that over time your body becomes

20:09

less and less inflamed. And this

20:11

is such a really interesting way that

20:13

we can kind of rebalance,

20:15

create homeostasis back in the body when

20:17

it comes to inflammation. That's interesting. When

20:19

we had the podcast guest about inflammation

20:22

depression, he was researching Sana

20:25

use to -- Mhmm. -- reduce

20:27

inflammation. Because, like, what's in you

20:29

know, you heat your body up. Yeah. And it causes inflammation

20:31

and it can reduce inflammation in

20:33

the long run. Yeah. It's I

20:36

think all of these sort of

20:38

acute, like, microdosing of stress, like

20:40

the cold showers, or the holding

20:42

of the breath, or the the

20:45

sun, the hot exposure, or

20:47

exercise. They're all micro

20:49

challenging the body in a way

20:51

that creates this counter response. And

20:53

then over time, that

20:55

that counter response, the recovery

20:58

from stress becomes stronger

21:00

and makes the body more resilient

21:03

to stressors. So I think they're all kind of

21:05

working with a similar mechanism on the

21:07

stress response, which is super cool. In

21:09

your lab, if you've guys found to

21:11

do the type of exercise works best for is

21:13

it any type of exercise? Howard Bauchner:

21:15

Yeah, so the research has

21:17

pretty interesting clear

21:20

benefits. So When it

21:22

comes to aerobic exercise, we're

21:24

really talking like every step

21:26

counts and the longer that you

21:28

go, the better. So every

21:30

additional ten minutes that you add onto

21:33

your your aerobic exercise, you

21:35

get a additional boost in mood up to

21:37

one hour. When it comes to

21:39

resistance exercising like weight lifting

21:41

or yoga Taichi, the

21:43

more intensive you are with

21:46

the weights the resistance,

21:48

the bigger the benefit there when

21:50

it comes to depression. Interesting. Okay.

21:52

Let's move on to know this issue some people are

21:54

struggling with. That's addiction.

21:56

How can exercise help in

21:58

addiction recovery? So when

22:01

someone gets addicted

22:03

to a substance, What happens

22:06

is that the

22:08

substance is addictive because it

22:10

increases dopamine in the brain to

22:12

supernatural levels. And what ends up happening is

22:14

this the reward system within the brain ends

22:16

up like locking down, so it strips away

22:19

receptors. And what this

22:21

does is it makes it

22:23

really difficult to get

22:25

enough dopamine response from

22:27

natural things in life. So they're no longer

22:30

rewarding they no longer

22:32

induce that feeling of of

22:34

reward. And so what ends up

22:36

happening is that when an

22:38

addict then

22:40

gains tolerance and dependency on

22:42

this substance of abuse. Now

22:45

when they when they enter

22:47

sobriety, what ends up happening

22:49

is that okay, now they've taken away that

22:51

supernatural dopamine and all they're left with

22:53

is the natural dope, you know, the

22:55

natural stimuli in the world that

22:57

induces just a small amount of dopamine and

22:59

it's not enough at least at

23:01

first because the brain needs to recover

23:04

and it will recover, which

23:06

is a really fascinating, amazing

23:08

feature of the brain that it heals

23:11

itself. But it

23:13

takes time and exercise

23:15

because it releases dopamine

23:17

as well can help speed

23:19

that up. So it helps speed

23:21

up the healing process. It helps

23:24

cravings within that first,

23:26

you know, few weeks of sobriety.

23:28

And it can be a real helpful

23:30

tool people who are in recovery.

23:33

Another super beneficial effect

23:35

of exercise for addiction

23:37

recovery is especially if you're

23:39

exercising with the group. It

23:41

creates a brand new social circle

23:43

for you to have

23:45

additional support And

23:47

for most recovering addicts,

23:49

you know, they've they've

23:52

lost a lot of their friends because they

23:54

were all tied up with the

23:56

addiction and the drug use. And

23:59

so building this new

24:01

community of support and friendship

24:03

through exercise has

24:05

been extremely beneficial for a lot of recovering

24:08

addicts. Okay. Just make sure I understand. So when

24:10

you take a really strong

24:12

drug, you basically blast your

24:14

dopamine receptors correct and it's just like That's right. Right. And so

24:16

to get the feeling back, you have to take

24:18

more and more of the addictive substance,

24:21

whatever. What you're saying when we stop

24:23

the addictive substance, it gives our brain

24:25

a chance for those dopamine receptors to get back to

24:27

like a normal state. Yeah.

24:29

And exercise can just help that process along.

24:31

Is that how it works? Yeah.

24:34

Okay. And then you also talk

24:36

about how exercise can actually

24:38

be a great way to prevent addictions.

24:41

Correct? Yeah. And this is again

24:43

back to the idea that

24:45

exercise is a form of

24:47

reward and can give

24:49

the brain the dopamine that it seeks.

24:51

So you know, teenagers

24:53

are especially experimental.

24:56

They're they're seeking novelty

24:59

and nuke experiences. And in fact, there's even a

25:01

theory that suggests that that's

25:03

like by design. Like, the brain

25:05

is just like hungry for new

25:07

experiences, and this helps them

25:09

to explore the environment

25:11

around them, to

25:13

understand what the world is like,

25:15

and then equipped to function in

25:17

it. And so, exercising helps

25:21

provide the brain, dopamine

25:23

that it seeks within these novel

25:26

rewarding experiences. And

25:28

if if exercising is

25:30

not there, or these novelty

25:32

experiences are not there, then

25:34

there is a temptation to

25:36

greater temptation to go

25:39

seeking dopamine out

25:41

in less helpful situations

25:43

like in alcohol and drugs

25:46

of abuse. And so the research is

25:48

really fascinating on

25:50

that, you know, for

25:52

teens, for young people who

25:55

are more active, they're less likely to

25:57

experiment with drugs of

25:59

addiction, drugs of abuse, they're less likely

26:01

to become addicted. And so, yeah,

26:03

it seems to be really beneficial, but

26:05

there is this really interesting

26:07

study I like that

26:10

it contrasted you know,

26:12

the different forms of education

26:14

that we give students

26:16

and young people about drugs. So there's

26:18

like the anti drug campaign, just

26:20

say no to drugs, you know, this is your brain

26:22

on drugs that kind of don't

26:24

do drugs campaign versus

26:28

teaching kids how to live a healthy

26:30

lifestyle that includes physical activity.

26:32

And what the research found

26:34

was that kids are less likely

26:36

to try and experiment with

26:38

drugs if they've if they've

26:40

been educated on a healthy

26:42

lifestyle rather than when they've been educated

26:44

to do the anti drug

26:46

campaign. Because if you think

26:48

about it, I mean, when I was

26:50

a team, if you told me not to do

26:52

something, I was just more curious about why

26:54

I wouldn't -- Yeah. -- I wasn't

26:56

supposed to do it. And so this

26:58

to me, this makes a lot more sense in

27:00

having that exercise there as

27:02

part of that healthy lifestyle gives the

27:04

brain the dopamine that it craves.

27:06

Gonna take a quick break for your words more sponsors.

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And now back to the show.

28:42

Okay. So let's talk about another thing you if we were

28:44

focused on. You don't just focus on, you

28:46

know, preventing know, mental illness or mental health

28:48

issues, but you wanna use exercise as a way to help

28:50

people have a more fulfilling life

28:52

in all aspects in their life. And one thing

28:54

you found is that exercise

28:56

can help in the aging process.

28:58

What does exercise do to keep our

29:00

brains young? Yeah. So

29:03

exercise has an incredible effect on the

29:05

aging brain, so it essentially helps

29:07

keep our brain young. So

29:09

as we get older, we

29:11

well, the brain even through

29:14

adulthood can produce new brand

29:16

new neurons. Brand

29:18

new born neurons within the

29:20

hippocampus which is critical for memory and

29:22

learning. And it's also the brain region

29:24

that's devastated by Alzheimer's disease.

29:26

So by creating more new neurons

29:29

there. We boost our memory. We

29:31

keep our brain sharp and young

29:33

and help prevent

29:36

Alzheimer's disease. What also increases

29:38

this substance, BDNF?

29:40

Is that what it is? Mhmm. Yeah. What is

29:42

BDNF? So BDNF,

29:44

brain derived neurotrophic factor. And this

29:46

is a growth factor that

29:49

helps support the survival

29:51

functioning of these brain

29:53

cells. And I like to think of

29:55

it as like a fertilizer, so it helps

29:57

them really thrive. The brain

29:59

cells really thrive and function

30:02

well. An exercise produces brain

30:05

BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor. And there's

30:07

this super cool new research

30:09

out primarily it's been shown

30:11

in animal models and we're trying to bring it

30:13

into human models in my lab now,

30:16

but it's looking at this link

30:18

between lack tic acid or lactate and

30:20

BDNF. So lactate

30:23

is produced by the muscles when they

30:25

get into that anaerobic state,

30:27

you know, when we're

30:29

in an anaerobic state,

30:32

what happens is lactate starts

30:34

to accumulate and

30:36

the accumulation of that lactate spills

30:38

out into the blood. It

30:41

travels to the brain reporting

30:43

directly to the hippocampus. And

30:45

there, it produces it sort

30:47

of activates BDNF, which

30:50

then can help fertilize and

30:52

fortify the cells So it's a really

30:55

fascinating link between, like, higher intensity

30:57

exercise and the lactate that it

30:59

produces, and then this growth

31:01

factor BDNF that actually helps to

31:03

support brain cells. Okay. So you can X

31:05

rays can help neurogenesis along.

31:07

Has there been studies that show they can

31:10

help prevent or reduce our risk for

31:12

dementia? Mhmm. Yeah. So

31:14

research from MyLab, we did like a head

31:16

to head comparison between genetic

31:18

risk factors and physical inactivity.

31:21

And there's a genetic risk

31:23

factor, APO E four,

31:25

it's an allele. That

31:27

puts people at an elevated risk. And about

31:29

twenty five percent of the population has

31:32

it. And we compare that

31:34

genetic risk to

31:36

physical inactivity and found that people

31:38

who were physically inactive had a similar

31:40

risk of developing dementia as

31:43

those who were genetically predisposed.

31:46

So it's I have this saying, you know, you

31:48

can't change your genes, but you can change your

31:50

lifestyle. And it can have

31:52

as big of an effect on

31:54

your dementia risk as your genetic

31:57

profile. So we

31:59

often think about dementia as

32:01

being sort of a biological disease,

32:03

but we do have a lot of

32:05

control and this simple thing of

32:07

moving the body can actually

32:09

help prevent that. And you also found your

32:11

research too going back to the social

32:13

component of exercise. That

32:15

it can if you add in social

32:17

ability into exercise, it actually turbo charges

32:19

the age benefits. Correct? Yeah.

32:22

It's really cool. So the especially

32:24

for older adults who

32:26

can suffer from loneliness and

32:29

social isolation, exercise provides

32:31

this social benefit. And there's this

32:33

cool study. I really like

32:35

it. It showed

32:37

that older adults who work out

32:40

together have better health

32:42

benefits than those who work out

32:44

alone even if the ones who are

32:46

working out together are not working out as hard. So

32:48

it really it really highlights

32:50

the benefits that we get from being

32:52

with others. And I think you

32:54

know, the last couple years has been a testament to

32:57

how important social connections are

32:59

and exercises such a catalyst

33:01

for creating those social connections.

33:03

So another thing that people wanna be

33:06

better at, at least I do, sometimes, you know,

33:08

oftentimes is I wanna be able to

33:10

focus better. Right? I'm at work. I'm just I

33:12

feel distracted. And your labs actually found

33:14

research that exercise physical activity

33:16

can help with focus. What does that

33:18

research say? Yeah. So

33:20

basically, I mean, most of us

33:22

do our work sitting, right, or

33:24

with little movement. And when we

33:26

sit for prolonged periods of time, essentially,

33:30

the brain gets starved of vital nutrients that it

33:32

needs to really think and focus.

33:35

And so every thirty

33:37

minutes, get up for a two minute

33:39

movement break. You know, it doesn't have to

33:41

be like anything vigorous. It could just

33:43

be a stretch. Walk

33:46

around the off best walk around the room, go go get a drink

33:48

of water. That subtle

33:51

movement from sitting to standing and

33:53

then moving a little bit is enough

33:56

to help increased brain

33:58

blood flow, especially to the prefrontal

34:00

cortex. So the prefrontal cortex is

34:02

our most evolved brain region

34:05

in humans. And it is

34:07

governing all of that focused attention that

34:09

we need to inhibit distractions

34:11

and stay on task.

34:14

And it needs a lot of blood flow. It needs

34:16

a lot of, you know, energy in the

34:18

form of glucose and oxygen. And so

34:20

we can give it that through exercise

34:24

and research in my lab, we've shown that these short exercise

34:26

breaks can actually help students

34:28

prevent them from mind wandering during class

34:30

so they can stay on task better. And

34:32

then when you're on task, you're

34:34

remembering things later so they perform

34:36

better on their tests afterwards. Yeah.

34:38

We've had guests on

34:40

a podcast talking about the need to revive physical

34:42

education in schools. Mhmm. Because like a lot of

34:44

schools, I don't know how it is in Canada, but here in the United

34:46

States, they've pulled back on

34:48

PE because they wanna spend more

34:50

time studying for these, you know, state

34:52

mandated tests. But some schools have found

34:54

well, actually, when they had spend

34:56

more time doing, you know, vigorous exercises,

34:58

vigorous play, scores go

35:00

up. Yeah. It's counterintuitive, and

35:02

I think that a lot of parents

35:06

like, end school administrators think

35:08

that, okay, we just need to cram in

35:10

more knowledge and information, but the

35:12

brain needs to be Prime to

35:14

accept that knowledge and

35:16

exercise helps to prime it. So it's

35:18

ready for learning, and then it can

35:20

learn better and learn

35:22

more efficiently and more effectively. So it's something that

35:24

we're really pushing here. Yeah.

35:26

So I think the dose you

35:28

gave in

35:30

the book for focus is, like, for kids, they need,

35:32

like, sixty minutes of vigorous

35:35

movement. Right? So just

35:37

like they get they get out of breath and sweaty,

35:39

basically. Mhmm. I think it's, like, five times or seven it's,

35:42

like, every day is ideal. Correct?

35:44

Isn't it -- Mhmm. -- for young kids? And then when you're a

35:46

teenager, it's,

35:48

like, three to four days is the minimum effective dose.

35:50

Yeah. And I think I'm not a

35:52

stickler on like getting the max amount.

35:55

I just wanna people to move more.

35:57

You know, I don't wanna put too much stress on parents. They

36:00

already have a lot of stress, but, like, you

36:02

know, just

36:04

moving more it

36:06

accumulates throughout the day, get

36:08

it in, you know. And so just

36:10

focusing on that and

36:12

and being mindful of how

36:14

much you're sitting in for how long and breaking up that

36:16

sedentary time is really

36:18

important. What about creativity? Is there

36:20

a connection between creativity and physical activity?

36:24

Yeah. Yeah. So this is really cool. So

36:27

the brain, you know, I

36:29

talked about the prefrontal cortex, and it

36:31

kinda has these two mode.

36:34

So one of its mode is,

36:36

like, focus. You know, it

36:38

inhibits distraction

36:40

and we call that inhibitory control.

36:43

The second mode is

36:45

this mental flexibility, which

36:48

is kind of, like, daydreaming mind wandering, creative thinking

36:50

thinking, like, divergence outside

36:52

the box. And so

36:54

it it has these two modes.

36:58

And when we sit and stay focused

37:00

for so long, what ends up

37:02

happening is that that mode gets

37:05

super tired and it can't do that very well, and

37:07

then it just kind of does

37:10

unproductive thinking. But when we

37:12

when we exercise, what happens is

37:14

we can switch the context.

37:16

So we switch our context from

37:18

sitting and focusing to

37:20

exploring the environment, which

37:22

which flips the switch

37:25

to that mental flexibility. And

37:28

this, it's sort of the idea, like,

37:30

when you're

37:32

moving in in space and doing something different. It's

37:34

very interesting to the brain. And you

37:36

can kind of in seats

37:38

of flow, for example, when it's

37:41

challenging, but you're in the moment, you

37:43

can actually couple these

37:46

two different modes so that they're

37:48

actually both on at the

37:50

same time. And this gives you,

37:52

like, the most powerful

37:54

brain function possible.

37:56

So you're a cyclist, you run, you do

37:58

the triathlon stuff. Like, when you're on a run or a long cycle, do you get lot

38:00

of ideas for your work?

38:02

Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure.

38:06

Yeah. The best ideas come when I'm on my run.

38:08

Yeah. And so it's like you're, you

38:10

know, you're you're uninhibited by,

38:12

you know,

38:14

focused thinking. The idea is that when we're

38:16

kind of free to allow

38:18

our mind to wander, then it

38:20

gets more access to the deep

38:24

repertore within our brain that may

38:26

not have bubbled up to the surface if

38:28

we're just focused on one single

38:30

point, you know, one single

38:32

stream of thought. So it it it just opens up the

38:34

channels. And the research

38:36

shows, you know, this

38:38

when we look at different sports,

38:42

certain sports are better able to

38:45

unleash that creativity. So net

38:48

and combat sports

38:50

that have an opponent and they involve this improvisation

38:53

and this play between

38:55

you and an opponent.

38:58

This creates a lot more creativity within

39:00

the individual than say, for example,

39:02

gymnastics or figure skating,

39:04

which require you to memorize

39:07

a predefined set of moves. So

39:10

there's less creativity involved in that. And the

39:12

idea is that when we train

39:14

our body to move

39:16

more creatively, we train our brain

39:18

to think more creatively.

39:20

And so even if you're not into

39:22

sports, you can apply this to your own

39:24

workout program by you know,

39:26

changing things up. So take a different

39:28

walking route or

39:30

try a different activity even if

39:33

it's just for fun, these additional things, these

39:35

novelty experiences that we add to our life help

39:37

the brain to stay in

39:39

that flexible mode. connection

39:42

you found in your lab to our

39:44

quality of life is

39:46

exercise and sleep. What's

39:49

the connection there? Yeah. So exercise is

39:52

so beneficial for sleep.

39:54

It it's one of the greatest gifts it

39:56

gives. And

39:58

so it works kind of two ways.

40:00

So, exercising during the

40:02

day, it helps us expend

40:06

more energy. When we expend more cellular energy

40:08

like ATP, it produces this

40:10

byproduct called adenosine, and

40:12

adenosine is

40:14

in that actual sleeping aids. So when adenosine built up to certain

40:16

threshold, it triggers sleep. And so when

40:18

we move more during the day, we build up more

40:21

adenosine and we can We

40:23

can sleep better at night. We sleep deeper

40:25

at night. The other way that

40:28

exercise works is that it

40:30

can help retrain or re synchronize brain

40:32

time to real time.

40:34

So we've all experienced this

40:36

when traveling through different

40:38

time zones. You

40:40

know, you that jet lag that you experience when your brain time

40:42

is just really out of sync with real time

40:44

and it just takes some time to kind

40:47

of realign the two. Well,

40:50

exercising can help speed

40:52

that realignment up. So

40:54

we know that the sun is a really

40:56

powerful cue of what time

40:58

it is for the brain and the But

41:00

exercising actually has similar qualities

41:02

as the sun does to

41:06

help reset the suprachiasmatic

41:08

nucleus, that master clock

41:10

within the brain to

41:13

help us sync up

41:15

our time better. Okay. So you're having

41:17

trouble sleeping exercise during the day. Mhmm. And Yeah.

41:20

Is there, like, a time that's best for that

41:22

to get the benefits of exercise and sleep?

41:25

Yeah. So some people may have heard

41:27

it's bad to exercise at night.

41:30

And the research shows actually

41:32

it's okay. As

41:34

long as you're not

41:36

going super vigorously to the

41:38

point that your heart rate still elevated,

41:40

twenty five beats above baseline

41:43

when you're about to go to sleep. So that's sort

41:46

of the key. But if you, you know, a

41:48

lot of people like to work out just before they

41:50

go to bed and if

41:52

it's not, you know, if you're if you're able to get your heart

41:54

rate back down before you sleep, then it will be

41:56

very beneficial. But

41:58

there's this cool research that

42:02

was done they use these micro ultrashort

42:04

sleep cycles where they'd like

42:06

have people sleep for one hour, wake for

42:08

one hour, and do that for three days.

42:12

Right? To just wipe out the the circadian clock.

42:14

And then they would introduce exercise

42:16

at different times of the day.

42:19

To see how it impact, how it

42:21

would shift the clock. And

42:24

so what they found

42:26

was that if you're someone who likes to stay

42:28

up late and you

42:30

need to start getting up earlier,

42:34

and you need to shift your clock a bit earlier, then exercising

42:36

first thing in the morning around seven

42:38

AM is beneficial. But

42:41

if you're, you

42:43

know, someone who needs to sleep in

42:46

more and stay up a bit

42:48

later than exercising in the early

42:50

evening is best

42:52

for them. I think a lot of people want me listen to this and thinking, yeah, I know. I

42:54

I gotta exercise more not only from my

42:56

physical health and, yeah, not my mental health.

42:58

Mhmm. But, man, it's really hard to

43:00

get going. It's artistic to a

43:02

routine, and your lab has

43:04

actually researched why people

43:06

struggle to start and stick with an exercise

43:08

program. What have you

43:10

all found? Yeah. I mean, it's hard. It's it is hard. The brain

43:12

is against us. It's kind of this

43:14

relic of the evolutionary

43:16

past when you know, we needed conserve

43:18

energy to survive. And so

43:20

when we weren't expanding energy to

43:22

to, like, survived, to hunt and

43:25

gather food, then the brain

43:28

was just like, okay, let's just

43:30

let's just chill. You know, let's just be

43:32

lazy here. But now we

43:34

don't have to really move to survive

43:37

at least most of the time. You know,

43:40

there's no imminent danger, no, you

43:42

know, need to hunt and gather our

43:44

food. And so the

43:46

brain sees voluntary exercise

43:48

and as an extravagant expense, and

43:50

it goes out of our out of its way to

43:52

prevent us from doing it, you

43:54

know, that that negative talk and he went, oh, I'm too tired.

43:56

Oh, we don't have time to do that. And

43:58

this this is just that, you know,

44:00

that brain trying to

44:02

conserve energy And

44:04

so there are certain things you can do to

44:06

kind of remind yourself

44:08

that resources are plenty of

44:10

really fun trick is to,

44:12

like, switch some sugary drink in your

44:14

mouth. And the trick is you don't actually

44:16

even have to drink it. You could just swish it around and

44:18

spit it out, and that actually

44:20

helps to reduce the effort you feel when you're first

44:22

starting your workout to

44:24

kind of essentially break the inertia

44:26

and remind the brain that resources

44:28

are plenty.

44:30

But I think it's also important to remember that

44:34

it is harder to move when

44:36

we're not

44:38

mentally well. So at the

44:40

very beginning of the pandemic, we

44:42

conducted some research, surveyed

44:44

sixteen hundred people asking them, you know, how

44:46

are you doing? You know, what's your physical

44:48

activity like? And not surprisingly, people

44:50

were really, you know, they were stressed, they

44:52

were more depressed, they were more anxious, their

44:54

activity level was down, people who

44:56

were able to be active. They

45:00

they were faring better, but and

45:02

people shifted why they wanted to be

45:04

active. So instead of being active to

45:06

like, physically look good. They were trying to be active to,

45:09

like, feel better mentally. But there

45:11

was this mental health

45:14

paradox where they

45:16

wanted to work out for their mental

45:18

health, but their mental health was getting in the

45:20

way, so they were too

45:22

stressed or just to exercise, and they lack the motivation, which is symptom

45:24

of depression. And so we

45:26

created a toolkit. It's available on

45:29

my website, neurofitlab dot

45:32

com. And basically, it goes over some

45:34

evidence based tips. But

45:36

essentially, it's, you know, like,

45:39

Keep in mind in those states, you know,

45:41

some is better than none,

45:44

consistency is key. And it's back to this

45:46

idea that you know, yeah, there

45:48

are these benchmarks that we wanna

45:50

meet in terms of what's best for the

45:52

brain body, but every

45:54

little bit counts and some movement is

45:56

better than no movement especially when it

45:58

comes to your mental health. And so having

46:01

taking like a much more compassionate

46:03

approach to exercising and

46:06

taking off the intensity and putting

46:08

in the time. I personally found

46:10

this to be a really beneficial

46:13

Like you said, during the pandemic,

46:15

I had been I'd started training for

46:17

this Iron Man, and I had prior

46:20

to the pandemic, I had been

46:22

going out you know, trained pretty vigorously.

46:24

But once the pandemic hit and the

46:26

uncertainty of the situation,

46:28

it caused so much a

46:30

personal stress in my life that when I would go out for these

46:33

long runs or these vigorous runs, I

46:35

would start, like, panic, like, my body would

46:37

go into this panic attack

46:40

mode. And so I had to learn to just

46:42

essentially take off the intensity. So

46:44

I'd put in the time, but it

46:46

wasn't at that intensity that I

46:49

that I was used to, you know,

46:52

because I wasn't in that same mental

46:54

state as I had been before.

46:56

And so doing these check with your body really

46:58

important. And being just really compassionate with

47:00

yourself and and understanding that,

47:02

you know, it

47:04

is really when it comes to your life and your health and

47:07

your well-being, consistency is really

47:09

the goal. Okay. So,

47:11

yeah, takeaway there, having a hard time getting started with an

47:13

exercise program, change your mind of what an

47:16

exercise program has to look like. I think a lot of

47:18

people think, well, it's gotta be like an hour long

47:20

of intense whatever.

47:22

It doesn't have to be. Like, if it is if

47:24

you get, like, sixty minutes of day walking,

47:26

it's broken up in fifteen minutes throughout

47:29

the day, Start there. Yeah. And also make sure you

47:31

pick something you enjoy. If you -- That's right. Yeah.

47:33

-- if you hate marathon running,

47:36

like, don't do that, but you're not gonna

47:38

do that. That's

47:40

right. Absolutely. Well, this has been a great

47:42

conversation. Where can people go and learn more about the book in your

47:44

work? Because in your book, what's great besides all this

47:46

research you highlight? You also provide

47:48

some starter templates for

47:50

people, for exercise programs. So where can they

47:52

learn more about that? Yeah. So my

47:54

book's called Move the Body Heel

47:56

the Mind. You can order it anywhere books are

47:58

available for purchase. I have a

48:00

website that gives some background on

48:02

the book. Jennifer

48:04

Hice, so JENNIFERHEIS,

48:09

said, dot com. And I I had mentioned my Neuro

48:11

Fit Lab website. I'm on

48:14

Instagram, doctor. Jennifer Heis.

48:16

Follow me there or on Twitter at Jennifer

48:18

Heis. Fantastic.

48:20

Well, Jennifer Heist. Thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

48:22

My guest here is doctor Jennifer Heist. She's

48:24

the author of the book, Move The Body Heel to

48:27

Mine. It's available on Amazon dot common

48:29

bookstores everywhere. You can find more information about our work

48:31

at our website, jennifer heist dot com.

48:34

Also check out our show notes at A0M dot I s

48:36

slash move the body. And find links to

48:38

resources, redel deeper into

48:40

this topic. Well,

48:46

that wraps up another edition of the AUM

48:48

podcast. Make sure to check out our website at art of

48:50

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48:52

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49:27

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49:30

McKay. Reminding you to Ali, listen to the A0N

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49:34

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