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1:31

So I had a pretty weird dream last

1:34

night and in fact I had

1:36

a series of pretty

1:39

weird dreams last night. This morning

1:41

in fact I still had a

1:43

surge of emotions. In my dream

1:45

I was running around a house that I

1:48

definitely don't live in, looking for keys to

1:50

a car that I don't own so that

1:52

I could go to an

1:54

appointment that honestly I wasn't

1:56

even sure what it was for in the

1:59

dream. And when I finally

2:01

woke up, I felt almost out of

2:03

breath. It's amazing

2:05

that dreams can have such a

2:07

powerful physiological impact on us and

2:10

immerse us so thoroughly in a

2:12

narrative that sometimes we

2:14

question whether or not it's

2:16

an actual memory. The brain

2:18

has this fantastic ability to

2:20

generate pictures, characters, and scenery,

2:23

all while we seemingly are at

2:25

our most inactive. And

2:27

so it's no wonder to me that

2:30

people completely ignorant of this fact

2:32

would, you know, say something like this.

2:35

So turn in your Bibles to Numbers 12 verse 6.

2:39

It says, listen to my words,

2:42

when there is a prophet among you,

2:44

I the Lord reveal myself to them

2:47

in visions. I speak to

2:49

them in dreams. It

2:52

makes sense to me that people would assume

2:54

these dreams are really just messages from an

2:56

external source. And this is

2:58

a common theme of religious claims in general. They

3:01

are oftentimes a first shot at

3:03

explaining these incredible experiences that we

3:05

have every day. And

3:08

only with questioning and

3:10

rigorous investigation do we really start

3:12

to understand what explains them. Science

3:15

is the best tool we have for this. And if

3:17

you think your religion provides better evidence for the world

3:19

around us, pick up the phone and call

3:21

because the show's starting right now. All

3:25

right. All

3:30

right. It is

3:32

so good to be here. Welcome

3:34

everyone. Today is April 28, 2024. I'm

3:38

your host, Secular Rarity. And joining

3:40

me today is the shake from

3:42

Shaytan himself, Armin Navavi. What is

3:44

up? Hey, that's

3:46

a great intro. Thank you. Don't

3:49

know how many more of those that I have.

3:51

We've done a few and I don't know how

3:53

many more I have. So like, don't hold me

3:56

to it, y'all. You're so creative with these. That's

3:58

amazing. I'm so impressed every time. I'm

4:00

the new one. I literally

4:02

have no other skills. So

4:05

it's why I'm... No, it doesn't matter.

4:07

So unemployable. No, but man, I always

4:09

love doing these shows with you. We

4:11

got to do one together not super

4:13

long ago, and we're going to be

4:15

hanging out again in the future. I'm

4:18

always, always excited to be

4:20

on. And one reason I always

4:22

love hanging out with you is

4:24

because you have such a deep

4:26

level of knowledge on so many

4:28

things worldwide. And that's why you

4:30

actually do a weekly news show on

4:32

your channel, Atheist Republic. You always do

4:35

every Sunday morning, you guys do a

4:37

super great show talking about secularism and

4:39

atheism all over the world. And there

4:42

was something kind of specific

4:44

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5:14

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5:16

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5:20

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5:23

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5:27

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5:30

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stage you're in.

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shopify.com/try. Going on in Iran and

6:48

something that I think is really important for us

6:50

here in the United States and you know, country

6:52

is just outside of Iran. I think it's important

6:55

for us to pay attention to. So what is

6:57

that? Give our

6:59

audience some context and some understanding.

7:01

Oh, thank you for Elliot for

7:04

highlighting this. I appreciate that. Well, okay,

7:06

I'll just be quick. So you

7:09

guys know about the Math Revolution

7:11

ever since Math Harmony was killed by

7:13

the Islamic Republic. A lot of people

7:15

assume that that just has went

7:17

away. It hasn't. It's an ongoing

7:20

revolution. It's still continuing. And

7:22

the fights between the people of Iran and the

7:24

regime has

7:26

up and down, but it doesn't go

7:29

away. So I know a lot of

7:31

people get distracted by other news and there's a lot

7:33

of other things that are going on around the world

7:35

that requires attention. But now we're

7:37

hitting a new chapter

7:39

within this revolution that

7:42

I need people to pay attention to. And

7:44

again, for you, a lot of

7:47

the audience of this channel are atheist or at

7:49

these secular and

7:51

many of you consider yourselves secular activists.

7:54

If you consider yourself to be a secular

7:56

activist, you have to understand that what's happening

7:58

in Iran is the great secular

8:00

revolution in the history of

8:03

mankind. So it does require

8:05

your attention. If you support

8:07

secularism, if you support fight

8:09

against religious oppression, religious dogma,

8:11

theocracies, this is a battle

8:13

that does require your support.

8:16

The Iranian people do require

8:18

your attention. These are your

8:20

fellow secular activists trying to

8:22

fight against a religious

8:25

dogmatic far-right theocracy

8:28

and leaving them alone in such

8:30

a moment is insane because

8:33

a lot of people

8:35

here feel like they're part of

8:37

a movement against religious dogma. Well,

8:40

here is your chance. Here is

8:42

the biggest religious dogmatic

8:45

force in the world as

8:47

a regime oppressing a secular-minded,

8:49

liberal group of people. And

8:52

your voice, your support could mean a

8:54

lot. Right now, the chapter that we're

8:56

in, in this revolution in Iran, is

8:58

that the regime is trying to reinforce,

9:01

as more aggressively than

9:04

before, mandatory hijab laws.

9:06

But again, it's not just about the

9:08

point is that this is not about

9:10

hijab. This is about abusing women and

9:13

showing them that Islam is not

9:15

going away from Iran, that Islamic

9:17

law is not going away from

9:19

Iran, because the hijab has become

9:21

a symbol, the hijab has become

9:24

a symbol for how forceful and

9:26

how much the government is able

9:28

to exert its influence and

9:30

exert its power to control the

9:32

people using Islam as a vehicle.

9:34

And just because the regime has

9:36

managed to use Islam as a

9:38

weapon against people, the people are

9:40

taking off the

9:42

hijab or not having their job as

9:44

a sign that they're winning against the

9:46

government. So a lot of people think

9:48

that this is about being able to

9:51

choose what you wear, but it's a

9:53

lot more than that. The hijab

9:55

has become the symbol of the

9:57

government and its ability to control

10:00

people and the people have used the

10:02

symbolism of taking off the hijab as

10:04

a way to show that they're taking

10:06

back the streets. So now enough time

10:08

has passed since the mass of the

10:10

first wave of

10:13

mass revolution for the government to think

10:15

that not enough, not many people are

10:17

paying attention to what's happening in Iran

10:19

to show to its base, to its

10:22

religious fanatics and radicals that we're back

10:24

and we're not going to let all

10:26

these non-Hijabi women take over our streets

10:28

and they're abusing women to

10:30

such an extent that we

10:33

haven't seen for a couple of months

10:35

now. And a lot of women are

10:37

being attacked by government forces in Iranian

10:39

streets and we require your attention. And

10:41

it's again for this same reason why

10:43

too much Salihi, which is

10:45

a very popular freedom

10:48

fighter in Iran rapper, too much

10:51

Salihi has now been given

10:53

the death sentence by the regime. So

10:55

the regime is trying to show its

10:57

base, the radicals and the fanatics, the

10:59

remaining minority, the

11:01

less than eight percent minority of these

11:04

fanatics that support the government, the regime

11:06

is trying to signal to them that

11:08

Islam is not going away from Iran,

11:10

that we will continue to keep this

11:12

country Islamic by forcing

11:14

hijab laws again more forcefully

11:17

than before, but also by

11:20

this new death sentence against too

11:23

much Salihi. And too much Salihi

11:25

is a hero and one of the bravest

11:27

fighters, activists against the regime in

11:29

Iran. And a lot of people think that

11:31

the death of too much Salihi is going

11:33

to be a huge red

11:35

line. And again, this is another person that

11:37

we need you guys to pay attention to

11:40

because this is one of our greatest fighters

11:42

against the regime. I need you guys to

11:44

search for his name on Twitter, on Facebook,

11:47

on Instagram, on YouTube everywhere. So

11:50

his name is too much T

11:52

O M A J. So

11:55

he is a L E

11:57

H I. So search for his name. their

12:00

relative hashtags to bring attention to him because

12:02

the regime is trying to see how much pressure

12:04

is getting after they announce

12:07

the death sentence. It depends whether

12:09

the regime is going to execute him

12:11

or not. He is going to depend

12:13

on how much backlash they get both

12:15

internally and externally, both internationally

12:17

and nationally. So you guys could

12:19

be part of that international pressure

12:21

by bringing attention to this to

12:23

the fact that we don't

12:26

look at too much like that did nothing

12:28

other than rap against the regime and

12:30

use his speech to oppose against

12:33

the government. He did nothing else.

12:35

He just basically sang and talked.

12:38

And for that crime, he's been giving a death

12:40

sentence. So we need your voice. Please bring attention

12:42

to this. Sorry, I think I spoke for too

12:44

long here. No, that's okay, man.

12:46

That's okay. Because seriously, it's like you

12:48

said, I think this is this is

12:51

a moment for those of us in

12:53

the United States, in the UK, Western

12:56

countries throughout the world, Eastern countries

12:58

through guys, this is a moment

13:00

for all of us that care

13:03

about secular activism and pushing

13:05

back against the religious dogma and

13:07

the harm that that religions provide.

13:09

This is a moment for us,

13:11

I think, to stand in solidarity

13:13

solidarity with our Iranian brothers and

13:15

sisters. So I'm glad that I'm

13:17

really happy that you, you know, are always fighting

13:20

for that and just bringing attention to

13:22

that, man. Because it is a very, very important

13:24

cause and stuff that I think

13:26

intersects with a lot of a

13:28

lot of cool things we like to do here.

13:30

Like for instance, the fact that the atheist experience

13:32

is a product of the atheist community of Austin,

13:35

a 501 c three nonprofit organization

13:37

dedicated to the promotion of

13:39

atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,

13:41

and the separation of religion

13:43

and government. So yeah, definitely.

13:45

I know a lot of our audience is

13:48

very appreciative of that information. I

13:51

do have I have some

13:54

share your experiences that we're going to get to

13:56

here, Armin, because I think we've got some good

13:58

answers. But before we to

14:00

that. I have to give a

14:02

shout out to the wonderful folks

14:04

who are in the live chat

14:07

already sending in super chats. You

14:09

guys help make this show possible.

14:11

It takes money to keep all

14:13

this stuff going and you definitely

14:15

help. So let me start with

14:17

Gaius Husky sent us 999 saying,

14:21

for those who say God is sovereign and

14:23

can do what he wants, does God have

14:26

the right to SA a

14:28

child? It's a yes or no question

14:30

and I didn't ask whether or not

14:32

God would do that. So no dodging.

14:34

Well, folks, I can tell you out

14:36

there if you are a believer and

14:38

you have an answer to that. Gaius

14:41

Husky may not be on the show today,

14:44

but Armin and I are and we've got some thoughts

14:46

too. So give us a call on that. We've also

14:48

got $5 from Isaiah

14:51

S who's been a member for one

14:53

month. Thank you so much Isaiah saying

14:55

I helped build the Tower of Babel

14:57

and all I got was this lousy

14:59

t-shirt that says gibberish gibberish gibberish. That's

15:01

really good. I really like that one.

15:05

That's a really good one. And

15:07

then we've got we've got we've

15:11

got Pippo sending $5 saying sack

15:14

pass say a-e-t.

15:16

I have no idea what I just

15:18

said. It's highly possible that that was

15:21

phonetic, something in

15:23

another language and I just said a horrible

15:25

thing. And if I did, I'm terribly sorry,

15:28

but I will blame Pippo and

15:30

the $5 they said. But we

15:33

we have some answers

15:35

from last week. Share your experience folks.

15:37

So every week we give you this

15:39

super cool prompt and we ask you

15:41

to give us your answers in the

15:43

comment section below the video and then

15:45

we pick our top favorite three and

15:47

we read them out here and we

15:49

giggle about them and talk about them.

15:51

And last week we asked you to

15:54

complete the sentence when God isn't looking

15:56

I like to blank. And up

15:58

first number three X million When

16:00

God isn't looking I like to pretend

16:02

that I still have foreskin Only

16:13

when God isn't looking like when God looks you're like,

16:15

oh no, it's gone How

16:19

do you pretend that We're

16:23

not we're like just barely over 10 minutes

16:26

into the show and we're talking about foreskin

16:28

that's great This is this is the world

16:30

atheist one Up

16:32

next number two Johnny Rogers says when God

16:34

is looking away I like to think he's

16:36

just as confused as we are about why

16:39

socks disappear in the laundry. Yeah. Yeah Yeah,

16:41

I love the idea of getting up to

16:43

heaven and you get into talk with God

16:45

and he's like, hey you only get one

16:47

question Probably that

16:49

guy that is pretending to have a

16:51

foreskin is using them Oh

16:58

my god Okay.

17:01

Yeah, no, that's good. That's good And

17:05

finally number one our favorite answer

17:07

Ryan goes saying when God isn't

17:09

looking I like to switch hats real quick So

17:11

when he looks back he can't tell which one

17:13

is me. I love I love that Have

17:18

you ever have you ever heard the meme

17:20

by the way about like the reason? Atheists

17:22

aren't more popular around the world is because

17:25

we don't have a cool hat every other

17:27

religion has a cool hat Why have we

17:29

not done this yet atheist get on it?

17:31

Somebody make us an atheist themed hat That

17:34

is that is apparently what we need No,

17:37

but those were freaking awesome. I love I

17:39

love all of our people in our community.

17:42

They are wonderful They come up with such

17:44

great and creative things and that is why

17:46

we're not done We've got a prompt for

17:48

you this week and I think this one

17:50

is pretty good. So fill in the blank

17:53

folks I think God made blank

17:55

a sin just to fuck with us. So

17:58

our men I'm gonna start with you. What do you? Well,

18:00

you think God made a sin just to

18:02

fuck with us. So I'm going to use

18:05

Islamic sins or as we used to call

18:07

them, I used to call them haram. Right.

18:10

And I am not fucking with

18:12

you. This is actually Islamic law.

18:14

Okay. This is part of Islam.

18:16

And it's so ridiculous that most

18:18

Muslims are not aware of it

18:20

and think I'm fucking with you

18:22

by saying, well, most Muslims depend

18:25

on where you are. Right. So

18:27

you're a Muslim and you think that Armin is making

18:30

this up to make Islam look bad.

18:32

Go look this up. Right. So

18:34

what did God make a sin to just fuck

18:36

with us within Islam? God

18:39

made it a sin for you to

18:41

remarry your wife after you

18:44

have already divorced her three

18:46

times unless she fucked someone

18:48

else. So that would be

18:50

haram. That would be a sin. So basically

18:52

that means that if you marry somebody and

18:54

divorce her the first time and then a

18:57

second time or ended dinner third time or

18:59

if you triple tell her that's another

19:01

topic. If you want to

19:03

marry her a fourth time, somebody has

19:05

to fuck her first. And

19:07

again, I am not making

19:10

this up. Right. Somebody,

19:12

if you want to marry your wife for

19:14

a fourth time, somebody has to marry her,

19:17

consummate the marriage, basic fuck her and

19:19

then divorce her and then and then

19:22

and only then you can

19:24

marry her again. So this is for people who

19:26

think I'm making this up. This is making this

19:28

up. This is called Nikohe Halalah

19:31

or Niko, so

19:33

N-I-K-A-H-A-H-A-L-A-L-A. Look

19:38

that up. I'm not making this up. And

19:40

this has become such an important practice and

19:42

such an important issue. That

19:44

is there is a job related

19:46

to this. No. There is.

19:49

There are some people. There are

19:51

some people's jobs, which is called

19:54

mohalel, which they're specifically they're what

19:58

they're supposed to do is that you paid. them

20:00

to come fuck your wife so

20:02

that they could you could marry

20:04

her again. Right. And this has

20:06

throughout Islamic history, this has caused

20:08

a whole bunch of issues, right?

20:10

Usually, usually these

20:12

are religious, usually these are mullahs,

20:15

right? Usually the people, the religious

20:17

authorities claim that who you want

20:19

to who do you

20:21

want to fuck your wife more than a religious

20:23

like a mullah? Like these are the most obviously

20:25

they are the best people to do this thing

20:27

for you. So there's a job category for that.

20:30

And sometimes like with throughout Islamic history, there

20:32

have been people that you pay to come

20:34

fuck this one, your ex wife for you

20:37

so you could remarry her and they

20:39

get the payment and then once they

20:41

marry her and they fuck her, they

20:43

decide not to divorce her. And

20:46

they ask for more money. Right?

20:48

This is like a scam. So now

20:50

you're stuck because she is married to

20:52

him and he's not letting her free

20:54

unless you pay like three times more

20:56

or four times more. This has become

20:59

a major anyways, again, I'm

21:01

not making this up again and go

21:03

look this up. So this is across

21:05

the board. That

21:07

is so strange. Like and I

21:09

have so many questions, you know,

21:11

like I'm wondering like, was this

21:13

just happening so much in Muhammad's

21:15

time that he was like, man, we got

21:18

to figure this out. Like what are we

21:20

going to do with all these people remarrying

21:22

their wives three times or like I just

21:24

it is it is fascinating to me, man.

21:27

Honestly. Yeah, go

21:29

ahead. Do we go ahead? Yeah,

21:31

there's there is two justifications for

21:33

this. You know, some people say

21:35

this. So the Islamic justification, some

21:37

people argue is that this

21:39

is so that you don't take marriage

21:42

lightly. Like you're just marrying and remarrying,

21:44

marrying and remarrying. So at some

21:46

point you have to understand that you cannot

21:48

do this, right? Some that's the Islamic explanation

21:50

for it. Some people say I'm not me.

21:52

I don't know why this happened. But some

21:54

people say that this was just an opportunity

21:57

for more laws to make money and also

21:59

get laid more. You know this will

22:01

pin the job category for a whole bunch of

22:03

mola who said being a mola didn't come with

22:05

perks now I think you know, and this is

22:07

gonna sound crazy I

22:10

know what I'm about to say Armin is

22:12

totally radical but like maybe if you didn't

22:14

have a system of marriage that completely took

22:17

out one Persons or one group's viewpoint and

22:19

actually gave them the ability to make choices

22:21

for them So maybe when the embassy you

22:24

know super super weird crazy thought I know

22:26

I know It's just

22:28

a weird way to make marriage more meaningful

22:30

by like going around and looking for

22:32

people like hey Can you please come

22:34

fuck my ex-wife? I need anybody anybody

22:43

Kind of be contrary to a lot

22:45

of the other messages in in the

22:47

Quran there. Yeah, I would agree man

22:49

I would agree and imagine also paying

22:52

men to come like this is I

22:54

would call them You know at some point

22:56

you have to understand that these mola's are

22:58

actually prostitutes because you're paying them in the

23:00

arts. Yeah And

23:03

I'm not I'm not against prostitution. That's the thing

23:05

like I you know, your kink is not necessarily

23:08

but we're right they are right They're the

23:10

ones right? Right, right. I know Very

23:14

odd I'm just I'm

23:16

just thrilled You know because the Bible doesn't

23:18

go that deep into the intricacies of how

23:20

to live your life and thank goodness the

23:23

Quran did because we Can point at it

23:25

and laugh and talk about how clearly this

23:27

couldn't be from an all-knowing deity Gosh,

23:30

well, I love that. I thought that

23:32

was a great answer I know our

23:34

our audience is gonna come up with

23:36

some fantastic answers So again folks below

23:38

this video in the comment

23:41

section Give us your best answer to

23:43

the the prompt for this week, which

23:45

is fill in the blank I think

23:47

God made blank a sin just to

23:49

fuck with us and then make sure

23:51

to check out next week's episode at

23:53

the beginning where We reveal our top

23:55

three now. We already have some wonderful

23:57

calls filling up and we've got more

23:59

lines open folks So if you have

24:01

something you want to tell us if you

24:03

think something we've said is stupid or wrong

24:05

Give us a call. I

24:07

have to read a couple of these super

24:09

chats We got ten dollars from Miranda Rinsberger

24:11

who has been a member for two months,

24:13

by the way Thank you for that and

24:16

all the members make sure to spam all

24:18

those emojis in the chat Cuz

24:20

you have that power and

24:22

it says Come on.

24:24

Theus. There are souls to be saved

24:27

call in and give us your best

24:29

evidence Yes, Miranda. I agree and

24:31

then we've got here from Pippo two

24:34

dollars. It's actually on my screen twice I don't

24:36

know if you sent it twice or if that

24:38

was a mistake Pippo, but either way Thank

24:40

you so much Pippo says sock pass

24:43

a Yee tea means

24:45

what's up, Haiti? Well, I will freakin

24:47

say that all day. What is up

24:49

Haiti? I know there's some troubling times

24:52

going on right there and Pippo if

24:54

you are there in Haiti stay safe

24:56

Stay safe my friend and finally Frankenstein

24:58

a member for two months sent us. Holy

25:00

crap sent us $50 Thank

25:03

you so much. Frankenstein. That is amazing This

25:05

is for bringing attention to the struggle in

25:07

Iran for being you and for quote whatnot

25:10

So thank you very much. I feel like

25:12

that last one was was me It was

25:14

like thank you Armin for bringing, you know

25:16

attention to the struggle. Thank you for being

25:19

you and then whatnot. Thank you for caring

25:23

No, seriously, thank you so freakin much for

25:25

all of that you guys we

25:28

are here to take some calls Armin So let's get

25:30

right to it. We have Christopher He

25:32

him out in California wants to talk

25:34

to us about a revelation that they

25:37

got from God himself So hey Christopher,

25:39

you're chatting with SR and Armin on

25:41

atheist experience. What is up? How's it

25:43

going guys? Very

25:46

good. So just a quick background. I actually

25:48

was atheist up until about a month ago

25:51

I actually if you experience all the time

25:53

since 2010, I used to love watching Matt

25:55

and stuff just bash people. It was fun

25:57

I was a philosophy major in college

26:00

So yeah, I understand everything. I know all the

26:02

arguments, well, pretty much all the arguments against God

26:05

and all the problems with religion. No problem. Awesome.

26:07

So my little tale that I'm about to tell

26:09

you. Go ahead. Yeah. I

26:11

mean, I want to try to make

26:13

this as productive as possible for

26:16

the three of us as well as all of our audience. I'm

26:19

going to go ahead and say something, and

26:21

it might sound a little harsh, Christopher, okay?

26:23

But just go with me here for a

26:25

second. I don't think we need to hear

26:27

the details of what occurred in this particular

26:30

event for you. I am willing

26:32

to grant that whatever you say happened,

26:34

happened to the fullest extent of the

26:36

possibility of it happening, right? I'm on

26:38

board with you. I think the more

26:41

important thing, especially if you were somebody

26:43

who did not believe in a deity,

26:45

why did this experience make you believe

26:47

in a deity? I think that might

26:49

be the most interesting portion of it

26:51

and might be the place where we

26:54

can really kind of hash out our

26:56

disagreement and understand each other a bit

26:58

more. Do you think that's fair? I

27:00

personally understand where you're coming from. Normally,

27:03

I would have, as I've been explaining my story to everybody,

27:05

I like telling them from the start. Normally,

27:07

though, because you'll hear my sincerity, and it's very

27:09

detailed. I remember. I'm granting

27:11

that you're sincere, Christopher. I think

27:14

you're telling me the frickin', you

27:16

know, God's honest truth, to steal

27:18

the phrase. I fully believe

27:20

that, man. I don't think you're trying to pull

27:22

the wool over my eyes or just troll or

27:24

anything. I mean, maybe you are, but I always

27:26

try to give the benefit of the doubt to

27:28

people. And I think us going through a

27:31

detailed story about, man, I saw this

27:33

thing, or like I heard this voice,

27:35

or I had this feeling. I

27:37

don't know that that is

27:39

particularly the most interesting part,

27:42

because I think you would

27:44

probably grant that Armin and

27:46

I have had similar experiences

27:48

in the past. Other people

27:50

have similar experiences. The crux

27:52

of the issue is, why

27:54

is that experience indicative of

27:56

a deity and specifically indicative

27:58

of your own? deity. I understand

28:01

what you're saying. I

28:03

did not believe the experience myself. I thought

28:06

I was shocked because of something that did

28:08

happen. I worked in an auditorium going to

28:10

break down a setup for an event that

28:12

occurred. There's two storage room doors in a

28:14

storage room. As soon as I approached the

28:16

doors to the auditorium, I hear a loud

28:18

bang. Seriously, when I plant both feet, loud

28:20

bang. I'm thinking that the people from the

28:22

previous group in there are moving stuff out

28:24

of the storage room. I mean, large, right?

28:27

Makes sense. So I open

28:29

the door cautiously. I look through from

28:31

my perspective, I could see one of the

28:33

two storage room doors. The storage room door

28:35

that I'm referring to is a huge, heavy

28:38

mechanical storage door. Kind of like a garage

28:40

door, but extremely heavy. Part

28:42

of the auditorium in

28:45

the mid section had pushed itself

28:47

out somehow from

28:49

the alignment that it is. So it's pushed outward towards

28:52

the outside of the door. It's bouncing up and

28:54

down like some poltergeist shit. I mean, it was

28:56

like it was trying to play my shit. It's

28:59

all over the place. I'm like, okay. And the

29:01

first thing I think to myself is, oh, a

29:03

ghost, almost jokingly to myself. I guess somebody saw

29:05

that they would see jokes, you know, they would

29:07

say that and I'm about to whip on my

29:09

camera just to film it. And I'm like, that's

29:12

a little stupid. It's probably something obvious, right? So

29:14

I just quietly head down there and I expect

29:16

to see somebody. I look around the whole auditorium.

29:18

No one's there. I still looking at this door,

29:20

it's starting to bang out from every section.

29:23

There's no wind. It's pretty silent. I don't

29:25

know what quiet elephant is behind there pushing

29:27

this up because that's not, that should not

29:30

be possible. I'm thinking somebody's behind the

29:32

storage door doing something. I'm thinking my

29:34

coworker didn't say anything about any maintenance

29:36

or anything going on in the storage

29:38

room. Both storage room doors are closed.

29:40

To get to the mechanical storage store,

29:42

you have to open the smaller manual

29:44

storage door. It's closed. Why would both

29:46

of them be closed? Secondly, I could

29:48

see behind the mechanical storage door that's

29:50

being protruding now, it's completely dark in

29:52

there. Why would maintenance or anybody be

29:54

in the room in the dark? And

29:56

what are they doing to this door

29:58

in the first place? As I

30:00

make my way down, I'm in the midsection of

30:02

the auditorium now. I get a

30:04

really bad feeling that what I'm seeing is

30:06

not normal. I pull on my phone to

30:09

start to text message my coworker, I have

30:11

to ask them, hey, who's in the storage

30:13

room? Suddenly, I get like

30:15

a half second of extreme fear, and I'm

30:17

about to run out. Suddenly, my focus just

30:20

goes on the storage door. It's flocking. It's

30:22

beginning to flop out. Like, I cannot

30:24

explain what I'm doing. I start walking

30:26

towards the storage. I'm like, now

30:29

I'm in flight, but I need to know what's going

30:31

on here. As I get to a

30:33

narrow point, because the setup of the

30:35

chairs is in three large rows, I'm

30:37

finally entering the last row of

30:39

chairs. It then begins to intensify with

30:41

each of them. Okay. Can

30:44

we just, okay, something

30:46

that seems impossible to happen, happened. That's

30:49

the summary of every single one of

30:51

these stories. Like, we don't really, I

30:54

see now, I really was interested in

30:56

hearing it, but now I see why Elliot

30:58

wanted to stop you, because these are all

31:00

the same. They're all the

31:02

same. The summary of it,

31:04

something that you consider impossible

31:06

to happen, you witnessed from

31:09

happening. Okay. How does that

31:11

get us to God? I had visions afterward.

31:13

I'm trying to explain the reality of what

31:15

was happening versus what I thought was happening

31:17

in my mind. Makes sense, right? I'm trying

31:19

to be a little... Doesn't matter. ...about it.

31:21

I am. You're not being logical about it.

31:23

It's weird that you think this has anything

31:25

to do with God after saying that you

31:27

have watched so many of these shows and

31:30

you understand everything. You don't seem to even

31:32

understand the basics. How does this get to

31:35

God? No. That connection, Christopher,

31:37

I think is really like I was

31:39

saying at the beginning. I think that's

31:41

the crux of this for all three

31:44

of us, to be honest. Because at

31:46

the end of the day, if you

31:49

tell me a story where, I don't

31:51

know, you were just like washing your

31:53

feet one day and then you saw

31:56

a vision. Like, that's cool, man. But

31:58

actually that information... is not

32:01

particularly relevant. What's relevant

32:03

is why that experience,

32:05

whatever it is, would

32:08

lead you to accepting the claim,

32:10

ah, it's from a god, or

32:12

there is a god, or it's

32:14

my god, or whatever in that

32:16

category. So, like, I'm, again,

32:18

I am so on board, man.

32:20

This is a crazy thing. Absolutely.

32:23

It had a massive impact on

32:25

you. Totally, totally cool. You had

32:27

visions afterwards about it that were

32:30

unexplained. You couldn't figure it out.

32:32

No worries. I think you're being

32:34

completely genuine, okay? But what I'm

32:36

interested in, mostly, because this is

32:38

really where the rubber meets the

32:40

road, why does those

32:43

experiences make you convert to a belief

32:45

in god? You said you were an

32:47

atheist. I'm assuming you mean I didn't

32:49

believe a god existed or could send

32:51

messages to people up until then. Now

32:54

you do. Is it simply

32:56

because you had that experience, or

32:58

is there something about that experience

33:00

that exclusively points to god? Alright,

33:03

so I approach the door. I

33:05

hear a voice. A voice that...

33:07

No, wait. I don't... Okay, you're

33:09

just gonna keep going, guys. Is

33:12

it ever going to get beyond something

33:15

that cannot happen, eyewitness happening? We don't

33:17

care about you calling us and keep...

33:19

This is getting boring. And you act

33:21

like you have something special for us.

33:24

You know we have been hearing these

33:26

stories for so many years now.

33:28

You say you have been watching these shows.

33:30

Other people come up with similar stories. Some

33:33

of them say they believe in god. Some of

33:35

them now believe in Ganesh because of this. Some

33:38

of them believe in the Mahdi. Some of them

33:40

believe in Allah. They all believe in all sorts

33:42

of random things because of experiencing stuff like this.

33:44

We are not interested in you going... Taking this

33:47

long of a time and telling

33:49

us the details of what happened to you. We

33:51

understand it. They are all the same. How does

33:53

that get you to god? Where is that part

33:55

of the conversation? I saw the face of god.

33:58

Right. How do you know? that it was

34:01

God. That's the interesting connection. Again, I'm

34:03

with you man. I think you had

34:05

these experiences. It was me. It was

34:07

me. Right. I have superpower. I was

34:09

missing you. Why was it not Armin?

34:11

How do you know that? Because I

34:13

saw things that are not possible that

34:16

separate from the event that did actually

34:18

occur. I wrote a video story that

34:20

the things that occurred, I did not

34:22

include the God part. I had to

34:24

go medical check out just to make

34:26

sure that I wasn't crazy. They said

34:28

I wasn't and I have the place

34:30

to work like that. That's good. But hang

34:33

on a second. You said the claim that

34:35

you made Christopher was that, you know, when

34:37

we, when Armin said, Hey man, actually it

34:39

was me. I was just fucking with you.

34:42

You said, no, no, couldn't have been you

34:44

Armin had to be a God because the

34:46

things that I saw were impossible unless it

34:48

was a God. What things just give me

34:51

one. We don't need a list. Just one.

34:53

And then how do you know that it's

34:55

impossible to see those without a God? How

34:57

have you done that work? I saw, this

35:00

is not silly. I didn't believe in myself.

35:02

Okay. I saw the kingdom of heaven. God

35:05

explained to me what he was. He's 10th

35:07

dimensional, all sentient reality. So why is it

35:09

not possible to see that unless a God

35:12

actually exists that is giving you that message?

35:14

Are you telling me that somebody couldn't have

35:16

that vision? Even if there is a God,

35:18

how do you know it wasn't the devil?

35:21

I don't know. Right. You're

35:26

pre assuming like God, you're like, how do you

35:28

know it was God? And you say God

35:30

was explaining these things to me. You're

35:32

pre, like we haven't gotten to the

35:35

God part yet. You're pre assuming things.

35:37

I, the reason, like the

35:39

reason he doesn't reveal himself to anybody is

35:41

because that's not part of this exercise that

35:44

we live in. That faith is kind of

35:46

the thing about it. We haven't, you, you

35:48

don't know, you're, you're talking, you're making claims

35:50

about how God operates. We haven't even gotten

35:52

to the part that there is, this is

35:55

a God. You haven't Even shown that you're

35:57

now making claims about how it operates. Do You

35:59

have any. The beginning to show that

36:01

any of the things that you suggest

36:03

or that happens shows that this was

36:06

a gust. yeah I I give you

36:08

better revolution You know what yesterday yesterday

36:10

I looked into the sky grants and

36:12

the stars moved and it was five

36:15

hundred people with meet the all sorts.

36:17

It wasn't just me she wasn't a

36:19

delusions. we all verify that were all

36:21

saying the same things to. Sars

36:23

move on the roads in the

36:26

sky so that hey arm

36:28

in i. Am talking to you know

36:30

to the for five hundred people are a

36:32

Dixie youth I want to tell you said

36:34

you were wrong and there is a god

36:37

and this is god's communicating with you right

36:39

now and I saw of that happen again

36:41

I'll have to do something that actually pull

36:43

a success and you for me what do.

36:45

You think that witnessing anything like that

36:47

would actually prove God? How would I

36:50

know that does Actually Got. Dismissed as

36:52

a says so. Yeah, actually that's exactly

36:54

what do you haven't How would you

36:56

know or dimensional can explain it to

36:59

you? You've never experienced anything that I've

37:01

experienced. I know it sounds of water

37:03

is falling as you can explain his

37:06

what's the point of calling isn't there?

37:08

It's almost any. Part

37:11

of the exercise, I'm showing you

37:13

his bed. Give somebody a maybe the

37:15

poems by Story made his face

37:17

is burns on hope basically and

37:19

that's the idea behind. It but yes

37:21

that's I see what sizes so face. So

37:23

basically this is you You have not unique

37:25

and they see glad you called in. Do

37:27

call in a case because you do. Besides

37:29

what this is what you're showing us right

37:31

You have no explanation when we asked you

37:34

why this is God. How do you know

37:36

that this shows that there's a gods you

37:38

say I can explain to see this as

37:40

face. Yes thank you thank you for showing

37:42

us of what's the. Easiest is basically believing

37:44

things without having any explanation on A

37:46

and. That is worth is this is just

37:48

said is what it is. I'm just going

37:51

to tell you as I do you expect

37:53

from the listeners are asked to just be

37:55

assessing of this nonsense just because you're saying

37:57

it without providing. any explanation i would

38:00

something, you therefore got why I can't

38:02

explain it. And you think that should

38:04

work. If this works on anybody, if

38:06

this works on anybody, and you started

38:08

this, you started your call by saying,

38:10

I understand everything, you don't seem to

38:13

understand even the basics of logical

38:15

reasoning. When you expect people to come up with

38:17

a conclusion without even providing an explanation. What you

38:19

can know, I don't know how you've been watching

38:21

this show for this long. And this is what

38:23

you get out of it. Yeah, we'll give you

38:25

we'll give you a little bit to respond, Christopher.

38:28

Thank you. Look, I understand you

38:30

cannot explain I have the same scientific mind

38:32

as you, I assure you, I

38:35

did not believe this immediately. It took weeks

38:37

of like a bunch of crazy shit. He

38:39

had to show me things. I have to

38:41

the matter. How does that matter that it

38:44

took you weeks? Yeah, if if how

38:46

do you? Yeah, if I if I

38:48

may, I think we're just kind of

38:50

spinning our wheels a little bit here,

38:52

Christopher. And in part, I think it's

38:54

because where Armin and I are coming

38:56

from is a very focused point when

38:58

it comes to this story, when it

39:00

comes to this experience, we are absolutely

39:02

willing to grant fantastical experiences occur on

39:04

a regular basis. That was what my

39:06

intro was about. That wasn't it wasn't

39:08

made up. I literally woke up this

39:10

morning going, like,

39:13

holy crap, that was intense. That

39:15

was that was an intense ass dream

39:17

that I had. I have no idea

39:19

why I got about the same amount

39:21

of sleep as I normally do. It

39:23

wasn't like I was like, you know,

39:25

eating a shit ton of crazy foods

39:27

or anything. It's just a normal night,

39:30

man. It's just my brain, you know,

39:32

put this shit together for me. And

39:34

it freaked me out a little bit.

39:36

But that fantastical experience is actually not

39:38

what's interesting. What's interesting is how we

39:40

make the connection between that occurrence that

39:42

I had, and then the conclusion that

39:44

a deity exists, or a deity was

39:46

giving me that. And so because we're

39:48

kind of coming from a little bit

39:50

of a different perspective on this, I

39:52

just don't feel like we're really getting

39:54

to the meat of it as much

39:56

as I would like to. But no

39:58

worries, Christopher goes back man we

40:01

do this every single week same

40:03

great time same great channel and

40:06

just take the next week

40:08

and and think about what

40:10

specific about these experiences leads

40:12

you to the conclusion a

40:14

god exists and specifically this

40:16

god exists because I think

40:18

that will help us understand where you're coming from

40:21

a little bit more and just be able to

40:23

dig a little bit further into it man so

40:25

I'm gonna let you go man thank you so

40:27

much for giving us a call I do greatly

40:30

appreciate it I always love to hear

40:32

when people have switched from

40:34

being a non-believer to a believer

40:37

of some kind because I

40:39

always want to know what

40:41

made you switch what made

40:43

that conclusion viable for you

40:45

and so far unfortunately I have never

40:48

really gotten a good answer go ahead

40:50

it amazes me that people saying that

40:52

I was an atheist now that I'm

40:55

not I'm a believer that as any

40:57

way to their conclusion

41:00

if that did add any way to your

41:02

conclusion then people leave believing in God and

41:04

now leaving religion and not believing in God

41:06

then it should work the other way as

41:08

well does it work only in one way

41:10

and when you say like I didn't take

41:12

this likely I thought about this for weeks

41:14

well okay many people thought about living religion

41:16

or living believe in God for weeks and

41:18

now they're atheists how is that work out

41:20

for your how is this add to

41:23

the validity of your argument how does

41:25

that why do you think that works

41:27

in your favor it doesn't matter people

41:29

spend months or years thinking about something

41:31

and they could still come to the wrong

41:33

conclusion that adds nothing adds nothing

41:35

as is useless even mentioning that yep

41:37

yep I agree man I agree and

41:39

with that we have a couple of

41:42

super chats before we grab this next

41:44

call we've got five dollars from Chris

41:46

and keep up the skepticism guys well

41:48

thank you so much Chris we really

41:50

appreciate that and we will do our

41:52

best we will keep it up it

41:54

does get heavy but we've got

41:56

a lot of hands here We've

41:58

got five dollars. From a T.

42:00

De Niro who's been a member for

42:03

two months. Thank you so much for

42:05

that! Woke up from a dream once

42:07

after being shot in the back three

42:09

times. Celtic for two hours after must

42:11

mean a spiritual assassination attempt. I love

42:13

that. I love that idea. Like the

42:15

idea that you could like you know

42:17

do inception but like actually kill people

42:19

and their dreams. there's of added anyway.

42:21

I would go data really weird routes.

42:23

Were going to end up talking about

42:25

Dnc for the whole show and I

42:27

don't think any of us want that's

42:29

so before grab this next call I

42:32

am gonna remind you that sometimes in

42:34

life there are, it's confusing about what

42:36

you can do. You know it seems

42:38

like there's a lot going on and

42:40

you know you just or a small

42:42

drop in a big ocean and can't

42:44

really make a difference. Well I'm here

42:46

to tell you that that isn't always

42:48

the case. You can do a lot for this

42:50

wonderful channel by just liking the. Video subscribing to

42:53

the channel, enabling notifications or commenting below

42:55

on whatever. I'm sure there was probably

42:57

only two, maybe three of you out

42:59

there that knew where I was going

43:01

when I started that. Ah, that's what

43:03

I like to do. I like the

43:05

seek it out. So yes, the world

43:07

may be chaotic and you may not

43:09

have control over much, but there is

43:11

one thing you can control which is

43:13

that you Tube algorithm. So give a

43:15

sacrifice, give a like already and the

43:17

left go to another call. We're actually

43:19

coming out my way. Gone out that

43:21

Tennessee. We're gonna talk. With a a a

43:23

pathetic i'm probably saying that wrong he him

43:25

see as a wants talk about talk about

43:27

god hey it tell me how to say

43:29

your name correctly and you're chatting with s

43:31

are an arm and what's up Yasuda seem

43:33

an incredibly it's up a Sonics apple fag.

43:36

yeah I figured it was one of those.

43:38

So yeah perfect perfect. What is a man?

43:40

how are you a do pretty good about

43:42

yourself? Pretty good pretty good What's the what's

43:44

it out for us to day man looks

43:46

like a lot A big words Yasuo I

43:48

wanna give an argument for goddesses. Go for

43:50

it. Once again Up amp. so

43:53

you probably heard the trentadue argument for

43:55

i'm assuming roads you are in the

43:57

spirit zola am familiar with it or

43:59

it's Yeah, so this is

44:01

the epistemological transcendental argument that I like

44:03

to present Basically

44:06

reasoning to why God exists

44:08

by retortions. So I'll

44:11

just I'll give you a syllogism if

44:13

you want. I'll be fine Yeah, yeah,

44:15

go for it. Yeah, go for it.

44:17

We like syllogism. Yeah, yeah, no problem

44:19

Yeah, so premise one is gonna be

44:21

that God is a necessary precondition for

44:23

knowledge premise to is knowledge We have

44:25

knowledge conclusion therefore God. Yeah. Yeah, I

44:27

like Yeah, I like that

44:29

I've heard it before For

44:31

sure. I always want to I always like to say this

44:33

stuff by the way Which is like

44:35

I don't have like a degree in philosophy,

44:38

man I go to J Mike

44:40

a lot for sure to get some some really good

44:42

insight another person I really like by the way, I

44:44

just want to shout this guy out Dr.

44:47

Lance Bush just has some really interesting thoughts

44:49

on things and I really have enjoyed listening

44:51

to him over the years I Think

44:54

on the rip the first thing that comes

44:56

to my mind is I have a problem

44:58

with the first premise I don't

45:00

know how we would get solid justification

45:03

for that, right? The first premise was

45:05

like God is the foundation for knowledge,

45:07

right? Like we can't have knowledge without

45:09

God Is that like getting it pretty

45:11

close? Yeah, of course. Yeah, I think

45:13

that that is probably gonna be the

45:15

most objectionable Objectionable in it. I mean

45:18

we couldn't go down the route of

45:20

like saying hey, we just don't have

45:22

knowledge whatsoever Maybe that's

45:24

productive But I think that first premise is

45:26

probably the the more to sink our teeth

45:28

in but let me let me pass it to Armin Real

45:30

quick a pathetic. I mean, I'm sure you

45:32

have an answer ready for this because you

45:34

guys usually You

45:36

pre substitute you do but obviously the main one

45:39

of the biggest problems is that you're trying to

45:41

Prove God and you using the word

45:44

God in your premises So you are

45:46

basically pre assuming God so that's not

45:48

how you do logical arguments, right? You

45:50

don't the thing that is supposed to

45:53

be in the conclusion exists in your

45:55

premises. That's not how you form Any

45:58

argument are you sad? I do the same

46:00

thing. I'm not formally valid. Are you saying the transmittal

46:02

argument is not formally valid? I'm not. I'm

46:05

saying there's a soundness issue. I'm

46:07

fine with saying that it's valid. But

46:10

I'm going to go down now. I'm

46:12

sure you have a response to it. I'm just

46:14

wanting to see how you respond

46:16

to it. Yeah, sure. So

46:19

the transmittal argument is not necessarily begging

46:21

the question. You're assuming that like we're

46:23

just putting God in

46:25

the premises that we're assuming the

46:28

conclusion. The transmittal arguments, especially if you

46:30

look at a manual con, I don't think it's really

46:32

assuming the conclusion. I don't believe that to be the

46:34

case. It's an argument

46:36

of torsion, basically meaning that without

46:39

the necessary conditions for something you wouldn't have

46:41

something else. For example, most priests have to

46:43

use the example of like a cake. If

46:45

you have a cake, you're obviously going to

46:47

have the ingredients. Without the ingredients, you can't

46:50

have the cake. Simple as that. It's not

46:52

that I assume the ingredients to be the

46:54

case in the first premise. It's not begging

46:56

a question. You keep

46:58

saying it's not begging the question and keep

47:00

like saying, I don't think it is. I don't think it

47:02

is. I don't think it is. But I don't hear why

47:04

it's not. The actual thing that

47:06

is supposed to be the whole point of the

47:08

argument is right. You mentioned it.

47:10

The first word that you mentioned on

47:13

premise one includes it was God. It's

47:15

not ingredients. It's a very, very, it's

47:17

a very thing you're trying to prove

47:19

that exists. Yeah. So I explained

47:21

to you, I gave you an analogy of like a cake,

47:23

right? So the ingredients of like

47:25

flour, eggs, whatever are necessary for a

47:28

cake to be the case. If you

47:30

have a cake, therefore the ingredients exist

47:32

as well. So it's just

47:34

whatever necessary is something that is necessary

47:36

for a certain object or anything in

47:38

philosophy to exist is whatever

47:41

is necessary for that. But that doesn't work because

47:43

you're not. Okay.

47:46

If the point of the argument

47:48

regarding the cake was right, that

47:50

we, it's necessary. And

47:53

if you were trying to prove that the

47:55

ingredients of the cake are real, right, even

47:57

then, if you say, well, we have cake

47:59

and for the. cake, the ingredients

48:01

need to be necessary. We don't

48:03

even know in that situation, we

48:05

don't even know if the ingredients

48:08

are real. So you assumed that

48:10

the ingredients are real. You assume

48:12

that this cake is here because of this

48:15

ingredient. Therefore, you just preassume the conclusion

48:17

of that argument. You're using an analogy

48:19

because a lot of people already knew

48:21

that whatever goes into the cake does

48:23

exist, but it doesn't apply to the

48:25

argument that you're making here. You have

48:27

to live in a world that we

48:29

are not sure if cakes come from

48:32

those specific ingredients. And we don't even

48:34

know if those ingredients do exist for

48:36

them to make that cake. We do

48:38

know cake exists, but we cannot assume,

48:40

so you actually have to

48:44

make the argument that these cakes

48:46

come from those ingredients and those ingredients

48:48

exist. You actually have to show it

48:50

to us. You haven't done anything. You

48:52

just basically repeated a claim. The

48:55

reason why I told you that God is necessary for

48:57

pregudition knowledge is because there's an argument for the first

48:59

premise with a disjunct. But right now, with

49:02

the transcendental argument, if you want to say

49:04

that Immanuel Kant is flawed in his syllogisms

49:06

and it's not formally valid, then you're going

49:08

to have to give an argument. I don't

49:11

care about Kant. We're talking to you. You

49:13

have made no arguments. You just made

49:18

a claim and you act like you made

49:20

an argument, but you haven't. You are saying

49:23

that God is necessary for something. We haven't

49:25

even shown that there is a God. Maybe

49:27

that's level two. Once you show us that

49:29

there is a God, then show us what

49:31

is necessary for. But you haven't

49:33

even begun to make an argument. You just

49:35

repeated the claim over and over and over

49:38

again. And the words that you use, no,

49:40

no, you use words that make it sound

49:42

you're intelligent, but this is one of the

49:44

dumbest arguments out there. Anybody that understands what

49:47

you're saying, the only people that might think

49:49

that you're saying something intelligent is because of

49:51

the words that you use. But once we

49:53

actually explain to people what you're

49:55

saying, even the most idiotic, the most simple

49:58

minded people can say that you're not a God, You're

50:00

not saying anything. You're not, no,

50:02

so you're not. So my argument

50:04

is the demonstration, right? So you're

50:06

questioning me for assuming necessary components.

50:08

It's like questioning someone for assuming

50:10

the self to be able to

50:12

make a proposition. That's nonsensical to

50:14

raise that objection to. I think we have

50:16

arguments that do give us

50:19

good reason, good justification to accept

50:21

the self as a necessary precondition

50:23

for things. I really do think

50:25

that's gonna be the place where

50:27

we will find more fertile ground

50:29

between us. Getting to

50:31

the conclusion that is premise one in

50:35

this argument, I think is deeply important.

50:37

And I think that's kind of what

50:39

Armin has been getting at is that

50:41

when we use this type of construction

50:43

when it comes to things like cake,

50:46

yeah, nobody's really gonna be up in arms

50:48

about it because it's like, yeah, man, eggs

50:51

are real. Like milk is real. Like, you

50:53

know, we got all kinds of stuff that

50:55

demonstrates that. So if the first premise is

50:58

God is a necessary precondition to

51:00

have knowledge, I'm really just

51:02

interested in how do we

51:05

get to that? What is

51:07

the demonstration that that is

51:09

sound? That's completely fine.

51:11

So you were talking about soundness. Armin was

51:13

more talking about the validity of like the

51:15

form. Sure. Formal validity of the argument. But

51:18

sure, I can go into the soundness of it. Yeah,

51:20

let's hit it for a minute. We've got a bunch of calls. And

51:23

so I don't know how much longer. So we've

51:25

hit the validity side of it a bit, I

51:28

think. Let's hit the soundness side for a few

51:30

minutes and see if maybe we can

51:32

get something. Sure, no problem. Yeah,

51:35

so the argument for the first premise

51:37

is a disjuncture, what we call a

51:39

disjunction in philosophy, which is it's, like,

51:42

for example, something's either true or

51:45

false, right? So either knowledge- I

51:48

prefer true or not true, but-

51:50

Well, we would say that knowledge

51:52

either justified autonomously or theonymously. Autonomous

51:55

epistemology is without reference to necessity

51:57

of God for the possibility of-

52:00

of knowledge and the anonymous epistemology is

52:02

reference to the necessity of God or

52:04

the possibility of knowledge. Now, the

52:06

reason that God is necessary is because

52:09

autonomous epistemology is impossible. Why? It seems

52:11

like we're still kind of in the

52:13

same boat. Sure. So the

52:15

reason that autonomous, you want me to tell

52:17

you why? Just

52:20

real quick, we're going to move off of this

52:22

before too long because I feel like... Yeah,

52:25

I know. This definitely is not

52:27

Armin's favorite thing. It's very

52:29

interesting. It's so obviously stupid, but go

52:31

on. All right. Go ahead, Christopher. I'll let

52:33

Armin rip you to shreds here in a

52:36

minute. I'm sorry. No, no, go ahead. Go

52:38

ahead. I'll just explain it to you. Yeah.

52:40

Why is... Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. I'll

52:42

shut up. Yeah.

52:44

So the reason why autonomous

52:46

epistemology is impossible is because

52:48

of this reason. So first

52:51

principles such as the self,

52:53

time, laws of logic, all

52:55

of those are really necessary for

52:57

knowledge, right? So for

52:59

example, you can't make a proposition

53:01

without a person. So to make a statement, you

53:04

have to assume the self for that to be

53:06

the case. That's an example of

53:08

a first principle. And since first

53:10

principles are necessary for knowledge, now

53:13

you can't justify first principle. Under autonomous

53:15

epistemology, first principles can't be justified. So

53:17

first principles are necessary for knowledge and

53:19

first principles aren't justified. The knowledge would

53:21

be impossible under the atheist worldview. What

53:24

is knowledge? What is knowledge? Just

53:26

short answer. What is knowledge? Justify

53:29

true belief. Okay. So what if...

53:31

What about failure problems? No.

53:33

What if I told you, okay, we

53:35

had no knowledge without any entities like

53:37

humans that were observing things. You act

53:39

like there is knowledge in the universe.

53:41

You act like we had knowledge. I

53:44

think this is a clarification

53:46

fallacy because what you're doing

53:48

is that you are... What

53:51

we are calling knowledge when we need a

53:53

self to observe the world, to create knowledge

53:55

because of it. I think you're assigning

53:57

that knowledge name to things that... doesn't

54:00

require humans or any other observing entity

54:02

to be there to acquire that. So

54:04

what are you, do you think like

54:06

if humans were not around or there

54:08

any other living beings that were

54:10

observing the universe, do you think we would have

54:13

knowledge? Do you think like, let's

54:15

say five seconds after the Big Bang, was

54:17

any form of knowledge? Are you considering like

54:19

any form, any, what we consider information? Like

54:21

any form of knowledge? I'm talking about my

54:23

belief, the argument for my belief, because my

54:25

belief is that... When you

54:27

are using the word knowledge,

54:30

do you think it was such a thing

54:32

five seconds after the beginning of, after Big

54:34

Bang in this universe? Yeah, so we

54:37

are assuming that knowledge is possible, yes. No, what

54:39

I'm saying is that you're saying

54:41

that to have

54:44

knowledge, we need to have these entities

54:46

like humans, you know, so that could

54:48

see things that come up with a

54:51

belief, a justified belief, a justified true beliefs,

54:54

right? But I'm saying that, yes, we didn't

54:56

have knowledge until we had humans, unless there's

54:58

aliens or something out there. Let's assume there's

55:00

not. I said that necessary for knowledge. I

55:03

said the self, not the self. Anything,

55:06

okay, self is an identity, because

55:09

there's a difference between self and the observer

55:12

part of our... Self is referring to

55:14

an identity that makes things a lot more complicated.

55:16

I don't want to get into that. I'm just

55:18

saying without any form of observer that some of

55:20

them we could refer to them as self,

55:23

without any form of observer, we wouldn't have

55:25

knowledge. You're assuming that we have a

55:27

God, something that could be referred to

55:29

as a self or anything that has

55:31

an identity, because the universe comes with

55:33

knowledge. I'm telling you the universe doesn't

55:35

come with knowledge. The universe didn't have

55:38

knowledge for a very, very long time.

55:40

So we don't have knowledge, so knowledge is not possible?

55:42

No, I don't. We have knowledge now! Yeah,

55:45

I don't think that's what you're saying. Until

55:47

we actually had like central, until we

55:49

had brains, now we have knowledge as

55:52

possible. Knowledge was not possible for a very, very,

55:54

very long time. So if you're assuming God, because

55:56

there is knowledge in the universe, there is no...

55:58

There was a long time. in the universe.

56:01

So either knowledge is possible or impossible.

56:03

That's the true dichotomy. You

56:05

can't have like, well, here's knowledge here.

56:08

And then I think we have knowledge.

56:11

Okay, there is no knowledge is possible. We

56:13

have knowledge. I have a brain. You have

56:15

a brain. Well, I'm in Elliot has a

56:17

brain. And what they're doing with this brain

56:19

is that we're coming up with belief and

56:22

some of them are true and justified, which

56:24

was my senior definition. That's what makes it

56:26

knowledge. So based on that definition, yes, there is knowledge in

56:28

the universe. So that makes it possible. I'm just

56:30

saying this is not something that is within the

56:32

fabric of the universe for you to be

56:34

able to justify God because of

56:36

it. He's saying knowledge is not

56:38

like some external entity that just

56:40

exists in the world like, you

56:42

know, hydrogen, right? There's not just

56:45

knowledge floating around out here that we can just grab every

56:47

so often. That was really what his point was, I think.

56:51

I can understand. Knowledge is just a chemical. Knowledge

56:54

is just a chemical reaction. Okay? Now,

56:56

like we have something that photosynthesis

56:58

that is, you know, that a

57:00

form, a very complicated form of chemical reaction.

57:04

Forming beliefs is another very

57:06

complicated biological chemical reaction that

57:08

happens within human

57:11

brains and I don't know, maybe other

57:13

entities somewhere in the universe, possibly. I

57:16

don't know. Right. Okay. So

57:19

yeah, that's a positive claim. That's great. We're

57:21

having a worldview comparison. I'm asking you, how do you

57:23

know that? Yeah. I do think,

57:26

I think whenever

57:28

we step into a place where, you

57:30

know, we're making claims on the other side

57:33

of this argument, I have no problem supporting

57:35

them and stuff. I don't

57:37

know though that we've done

57:39

enough when it comes to clarifying that

57:41

first premise. I don't know that we've

57:43

really gotten into that and there could

57:45

be a lot of reasons for that,

57:47

man. Yeah, yeah, we could. We

57:50

do also have a lot of really other

57:52

good calls that I would love

57:54

to go to and honestly, I'm

57:56

absolutely willing to admit this

57:58

is an argument. that

58:00

I need to personally dig further

58:02

into. The problem I often

58:05

experience when I get into this

58:07

is it feels like we're doing

58:09

quite a lot of backflips to

58:11

get to something as simple as

58:13

demonstrating the existence of something. And

58:16

I guess one of the big

58:18

things that always comes up to

58:20

me in these moments is why

58:22

in the world is this necessary?

58:24

It feels as if there's nothing

58:26

else that falls into the category,

58:28

except for this God stuff, except

58:31

for the spiritual stuff, except for

58:33

this transcendental stuff. It just, it

58:35

feels as if everything else in

58:38

the world that all three of

58:40

us know question except, this just

58:42

doesn't require all of this work.

58:45

And I don't understand why that

58:47

is the case here. Again,

58:50

I'm happy to say, hey man, I'm

58:52

not as versed on this, I'm not

58:54

as knowledgeable. Again, two of the people

58:56

that I mentioned earlier, for

58:59

instance, like Lance Bush and Jay

59:01

Mike, I'm pretty confident, I've heard both

59:03

of them tear this stuff to shreds

59:05

before in their free time and their off

59:07

time. And so it's

59:10

just interesting to me that

59:12

you would have so many

59:14

well-versed individuals who really don't

59:16

give this, the tag

59:18

argument, don't really give it much time a day.

59:21

Yeah, again, we've got some

59:23

other really, really great calls, some other

59:25

stuff that I think is gonna be

59:28

really fun to talk about. Some questions

59:30

for Armin too, I always like to get those

59:32

out there. But Apophatic, I really

59:34

appreciate you, man. I appreciate you calling

59:36

in. Before we let you go, I

59:38

think Armin has one more thing he wants to

59:40

shout out to you. Yeah, no, I just made

59:42

a, I just said something that was wrong. I

59:44

was being specious when I said, as

59:47

far as we know, humans have justified true beliefs.

59:49

It's not just the human brain. I have, I

59:51

should know this, I have dogs. And

59:53

for example, my dog sometimes gets hungry and

59:55

they have the justified true belief that if

59:57

I eat this, I will solve that problem.

1:00:00

So there are other brains. It's not

1:00:02

just a human brain that has knowledge

1:00:04

like other animals have also knowledge as

1:00:06

well Yeah, don't come after Armin's dogs.

1:00:09

He will absolutely he will absolutely bite

1:00:11

your head off. No, but seriously apophatic

1:00:13

Thank you so much for

1:00:16

calling and I thought you were you were

1:00:18

incredibly cordial man This is this

1:00:20

is dense stuff for sure and and I'd love

1:00:22

to hash it out with you more. I know

1:00:24

before too long I'll be back on with J

1:00:26

Mike. Please call us call us

1:00:28

in then And and get his

1:00:30

thoughts on it, too. Again. I I

1:00:32

think we need a lot more when it comes

1:00:35

to that first premise But

1:00:37

it would also be fun to dig into whether or

1:00:39

not we have knowledge at all Cuz

1:00:41

that is a fun discussion too, but thank you so

1:00:43

much, man. I'm gonna let you go It's always good

1:00:46

to hear from people in

1:00:48

Tennessee You know, that's

1:00:50

that's my state. It's a good state. It's got

1:00:52

its problems got its problems got some nice stuff,

1:00:54

too But it's got problems But

1:00:57

I'm gonna tell you about another state. Let me

1:00:59

tell you about another place There's many

1:01:01

places all over the world,

1:01:03

but there's one place in particular and

1:01:06

in this in this state of Texas

1:01:08

There's there's a city the

1:01:10

city of Austin and in this city of Austin

1:01:13

There's a library the ACA free-thought

1:01:15

library and at this library There

1:01:18

are meetups and community events happening all

1:01:20

the freaking time and we want you

1:01:22

to know about it folks So go

1:01:24

to tiny dot CC slash

1:01:27

ACA meetup and follow us on

1:01:29

meetup to keep up with all

1:01:31

of the super cool community events

1:01:34

like philosophy under the stars game

1:01:36

nights and More in fact in fact

1:01:38

folks. I am gonna do something. I

1:01:40

am gonna do something crazy I'm gonna

1:01:43

make a bold prediction that there might

1:01:45

even be people there right now And

1:01:47

here's why I say that because we

1:01:50

are doing weekly watch parties at the

1:01:52

free-thought library on Sundays for live viewings

1:01:54

of Talk even in the atheist experience

1:01:57

every Sunday the doors open at 11 and it is a

1:02:00

great place for community. Guys,

1:02:02

crew, do we have a shot of that?

1:02:04

Do we have some people at the light? That is

1:02:07

awesome. I am always so excited. I was

1:02:09

down there last year. I can't wait to

1:02:11

get back there this year. Folks, if you

1:02:13

are in the Austin area, go hang out.

1:02:15

It is a super cool place. You get

1:02:18

to meet a lot of really wonderful people.

1:02:20

And they often, I'm not going to say

1:02:22

always, but they often get food afterwards. So

1:02:24

like, come on. I mean, seriously, that should

1:02:26

do it. That should do it for all

1:02:28

you greedy, hungry atheists

1:02:30

out there. Anyway, we

1:02:33

have even more calls. We do

1:02:35

have some wonderful theists on the

1:02:37

line. And I'm going to tell you this

1:02:39

right here right now, Theists. I know you

1:02:42

can hear me as you are waiting

1:02:44

in the queue. We are going to get

1:02:46

to every single one of you. I want

1:02:48

to grab this wonderful person out in

1:02:50

Denmark first, because they have a question directly

1:02:53

for Armin. They have been waiting on

1:02:55

hold for an extremely long time. So we

1:02:57

are going out to Denmark, which is awesome.

1:02:59

We're going to talk with Christian, he,

1:03:01

him and you've got a story you want

1:03:03

to tell and some questions you have for

1:03:06

Armin. So what is up, Christian? Yeah,

1:03:08

hi. Thanks for taking my call. Yeah,

1:03:11

I called in for Keith and

1:03:13

three weeks ago and had a

1:03:15

lovely talk with Jamie, the Blind

1:03:17

Limey and Jason Friedman, I believe

1:03:19

his name was Great. And they

1:03:21

created points us, but I was

1:03:23

hoping to get a talk with

1:03:25

with Armin because the thing is

1:03:27

my son, he announced some three,

1:03:29

four weeks ago that he has

1:03:31

converted to Islam coming

1:03:34

from, I suppose Christianity, but

1:03:36

he he's brought up in

1:03:39

a non religious family, myself being

1:03:41

an atheist, my wife being a

1:03:43

cultural Christian at best. So

1:03:47

we celebrate Christmas and Easter for

1:03:49

the for the food and drinks

1:03:51

and don't attend church, for example.

1:03:53

Both of our kids

1:03:55

are baptized and they were

1:03:58

that that was mostly because of tradition. In

1:04:01

my wife's family, they were

1:04:03

given the choice of going

1:04:05

through this confirmation, the Christian confirmation. And

1:04:07

my daughter didn't want to go through

1:04:09

it, but my son chose

1:04:12

to do so. This was last year.

1:04:15

So I had an idea of

1:04:17

him being more religious than I am.

1:04:22

And yeah, he had started

1:04:24

using some rhetoric that I

1:04:26

didn't like, such

1:04:29

as readings, holy texts

1:04:32

with your heart, and

1:04:36

texts being inherent and those kinds of

1:04:38

things. So I thought,

1:04:40

I knew that something was going on,

1:04:42

but I thought that I could have

1:04:44

a talk with him until my wife

1:04:47

called me some three, four weeks ago. The

1:04:49

thing is, I'm on a ship, so I'm

1:04:51

away at the moment. And she called me

1:04:53

and told me that she had

1:04:55

a talk with him. And he had, in fact,

1:04:57

converted. He had done this ritual with two of

1:05:00

his friends. One of

1:05:02

the things that I talked to them, I talked

1:05:04

to Ethan about, well, one of the pointers he

1:05:06

gave me, they gave me was to

1:05:09

find out who was sort of behind it.

1:05:11

And I found out that it is just

1:05:13

these two friends. None of their parents are

1:05:15

involved and no imam is involved. And of

1:05:17

course, my wife and

1:05:20

I are both afraid, basically afraid of

1:05:22

losing him to this religious

1:05:24

cult or whatever. I

1:05:27

have this idea that people that

1:05:29

convert tend to become more orthodox

1:05:31

than people that are brought up to

1:05:33

it because they will want to sort

1:05:35

of prove themselves. So

1:05:38

I fear that he will be drawn

1:05:40

more into that. And

1:05:42

of course, we are afraid that we'll lose him, that

1:05:44

he won't be able to be a part of our

1:05:46

family anymore. So I

1:05:49

was hoping to get some

1:05:51

pointers, what to expect,

1:05:53

how dangerous is this, quote unquote,

1:05:56

for our family. Are

1:06:00

we talking indoctrination here

1:06:02

and yeah whatever Pontius

1:06:04

would be very okay.

1:06:07

Yeah. Okay so how's

1:06:10

your relationship with him right now?

1:06:12

How close are you? Well it

1:06:15

has definitely not worsened. Maybe

1:06:19

but perhaps I'm also seeing

1:06:22

ghosts here because maybe his

1:06:24

relationship with his mother has

1:06:26

worsened a bit. But

1:06:30

he kept on telling us that

1:06:32

how much he respects us and

1:06:35

he actually sort

1:06:37

of gave the Quran

1:06:39

the gave that

1:06:42

as a reason for that the Quran said

1:06:44

that he had to respect us. So yeah

1:06:46

I don't know how much respect of

1:06:48

his self it was just come from

1:06:51

adoption but excuse me. Okay

1:06:53

so is your goal

1:06:56

is your goal to make

1:06:58

him like ideally if

1:07:00

he stays a Muslim but what

1:07:02

is the ideal what do you

1:07:05

what is your goal like if

1:07:07

he stays Muslim but still maintains

1:07:09

a good relationship with you and

1:07:12

doesn't leave the family and you guys

1:07:14

are he's participating he's close to you

1:07:17

guys but just as a Muslim would

1:07:19

you be okay with that or are you just

1:07:22

want to make sure that he leaves Islam or would you

1:07:24

think like okay this is I can deal with this I

1:07:26

would he could be Muslim. I would

1:07:29

definitely be okay with it I mean both

1:07:31

my wife and I we we love him to death

1:07:33

so so I would do anything

1:07:35

not to to lose him to this of

1:07:39

course if I see him get getting more

1:07:41

indoctrinated I would want to fight for it

1:07:43

but but but I would be able to

1:07:45

live of course with him I've always been

1:07:47

of the opinion that we don't choose our

1:07:50

beliefs so so so

1:07:52

of course I cannot tell him to

1:07:54

not believe in this but

1:07:56

what's your priority if you if he what's

1:07:59

your priority If he starts having beliefs

1:08:01

that you do not like, if he

1:08:04

starts saying things that you find questionable,

1:08:06

is your priority to keep him

1:08:08

in the family or is your

1:08:10

priority to challenge those beliefs and try

1:08:12

to show him that those are wrong?

1:08:14

What is your priority? I would think

1:08:17

it's definitely keeping him in the family,

1:08:19

definitely. Okay, then don't challenge

1:08:21

us. If

1:08:24

we lose him from the family, then all hope is

1:08:26

lost, I suppose. Right. Yes,

1:08:29

I want to keep him in

1:08:31

the family. Okay, so don't fight

1:08:33

him. If that's your priority, don't

1:08:36

fight his beliefs. Because

1:08:40

here's the thing, you don't, within

1:08:42

as much as I'm anti-Islam, there

1:08:44

is nothing, well, I wouldn't

1:08:46

say nothing. But

1:08:49

in Islamic ideology, he doesn't need

1:08:51

to cut relationships with you. He doesn't

1:08:53

need to leave you. And

1:08:57

even if you think that he's respecting you

1:08:59

because he's being told, I don't think

1:09:01

your son is a robot. I think

1:09:03

that's just an excuse to be able

1:09:06

to do what he wants to

1:09:08

do. Religion

1:09:10

is not like, I'm a robot, I have

1:09:12

no emotions, and this is a code that

1:09:14

has been inserted by my brain, and now

1:09:17

I'm following it without actually genuinely having any

1:09:19

emotions for my parents. So

1:09:22

if he is respecting you and he's

1:09:24

still with you, and he says that it

1:09:27

is because my religion teaches me to do

1:09:29

so, he wants to do that. Because

1:09:31

if he's looking for excuses for a religious

1:09:33

doctrine to not be with you, there's enough

1:09:35

also scripture for that. So

1:09:37

don't worry about the value of the

1:09:39

respect and the value of his time

1:09:42

with you. Humans

1:09:44

are emotional creatures, and we would

1:09:47

end up, at the end of the day, doing the things

1:09:49

that we find most enjoyable.

1:09:52

But here's the thing, if you want

1:09:54

to maybe encourage

1:09:56

him to question his

1:09:59

beliefs without without pushing him

1:10:01

away from you, without even

1:10:04

acting like you are questioning him, or without

1:10:06

showing that maybe you're kind of challenging him.

1:10:08

One thing you could do that could work

1:10:11

in favor of bringing him closer to you,

1:10:13

but at the same time

1:10:16

making him evaluate his positions

1:10:18

is to show curiosity in his

1:10:20

new religion. Not concerned, I think

1:10:22

you and your wife, I encourage

1:10:24

you to not show that you

1:10:26

are concerned about his new religion.

1:10:28

That could be the cause of

1:10:30

the distance. In fact, that could

1:10:33

be the cause of the distance

1:10:35

more than his religion. Like if

1:10:37

you think this could be a

1:10:39

self-fulfilling prophecy, like if he becomes

1:10:41

a Muslim and you're so concerned

1:10:43

about the fact that his new

1:10:45

religion is going to cause

1:10:47

a division among you, your concern

1:10:49

might be what actually

1:10:52

leads to that division, because he

1:10:54

could see the concern and then

1:10:56

he likes his new religion and

1:10:58

your concern makes him want to

1:11:01

be separate from you. But instead

1:11:03

of concern, you show curiosity, he might

1:11:06

actually welcome that curiosity because he sees

1:11:08

that you're open about it, not only

1:11:10

you're open about it, you want to

1:11:12

know more about it. It's

1:11:14

almost, I don't want you to be

1:11:16

dishonest about it, like so I wouldn't

1:11:18

say a celebration, but curiosity, right?

1:11:21

But test it because sometimes the curiosity might

1:11:23

come off as concern, just see if

1:11:26

he's interested, let's see if you are

1:11:28

interested in his new religion, does he

1:11:30

welcome your interest? So don't force it

1:11:33

if you're curious about it and asking

1:11:35

questions about it, and

1:11:38

it seems that he doesn't like you questioning about

1:11:40

it, then quit, I think you should quit. But

1:11:42

if you see that he actually is impressed

1:11:44

by the fact that you want to

1:11:46

know about his religion and wants to

1:11:48

talk to you about it, his new religion

1:11:50

could actually be an excuse for you guys

1:11:52

to bond, because he

1:11:55

has this new thing that he's interested in, and

1:11:57

you're talking to him about it. So this might be a...

1:12:00

bonding excuse,

1:12:02

but at the same time, the

1:12:04

type of curiosity that you have,

1:12:06

the type of questions that you're

1:12:08

asking might make him also think

1:12:10

about the reasoning behind the positions

1:12:12

that he's taking and maybe even

1:12:15

start putting some seeds of

1:12:17

doubt in his mind. But

1:12:20

again, don't aim for that, but it

1:12:22

might do that. At the end of the

1:12:24

day, the most important thing is to maintain

1:12:27

a relationship, whether he quits Islam or not.

1:12:29

Your objective, I'm glad

1:12:32

to hear that your objective was not for

1:12:34

him to leave Islam. Your objective is to

1:12:36

maintain the relationship. So I think in most

1:12:38

cases, not all cases, the worst thing you

1:12:40

could do is to fight the religion. I

1:12:42

mean, I fight Islam, but I wouldn't fight

1:12:44

Islam in my family. That's what because in

1:12:46

my family, my highest priority is to maintain

1:12:48

my relationship. But go ahead. You

1:12:50

wanted to say something? Yeah. So if

1:12:52

I do show this curiosity and are

1:12:55

there any taboos, anything I

1:12:57

should stay clear of where I

1:12:59

can actually do more harm than good? I'm so

1:13:01

glad you said that. I will

1:13:03

real quick, I'll just shout out to

1:13:05

two resources that I think might be beneficial

1:13:08

for you and your wife in this. Recovering

1:13:11

from religion is a really, really good

1:13:13

place. And I know it may sound

1:13:15

like that's an organization that is specifically

1:13:17

trying to pull people out of their

1:13:19

religious beliefs. It is not. It

1:13:22

is an organization that is devoted to

1:13:24

having compassionate conversations with people and meeting

1:13:26

people where they're at and helping them

1:13:28

think through things and work through things. Funny

1:13:31

enough, we actually got a $2 super

1:13:33

chat from Michael Bell, one of our

1:13:35

members for two months who says recovering

1:13:37

from religion can help with this discussion.

1:13:39

So thank you for that, Michael. And

1:13:42

the other place I'd point you towards

1:13:44

is a really cool international nonprofit called

1:13:46

Street Epistemology International. That's just

1:13:48

a really, really cool place that has

1:13:50

a lot of good resources when it

1:13:53

comes to having these difficult conversations in

1:13:55

a cordial way that doesn't push people

1:13:57

away. So I'll kick it back to Armin. I'll shut

1:13:59

up after that. No, no, that's great.

1:14:01

That was a good resource. So when you say

1:14:03

taboo, what do you mean? Like something that it

1:14:05

might offend him? Well, I yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

1:14:08

So that so that he shuts down. Well,

1:14:10

you could tell him that beforehand

1:14:13

to like, I'm just curious. I'm

1:14:15

interested. This is interesting that you

1:14:17

find it show him that you

1:14:19

are interested in anything that you say,

1:14:21

tell him maybe that you're that he's

1:14:24

your son and whatever he's interested in,

1:14:26

you are interested in because

1:14:28

you're interested in the things that

1:14:30

your son is interested in. But

1:14:32

you also want to be mindful

1:14:34

about not offending him. Right. So

1:14:36

if I, if we're talking about

1:14:38

this son, if I say something

1:14:40

that might come off as offensive,

1:14:42

please let me know so I

1:14:44

could learn. So even if you

1:14:46

say something that you think that

1:14:48

might be taboo or triggering, you

1:14:51

said beforehand that, you know, just

1:14:53

I'm sorry, son, I'm learning. I want to

1:14:55

be in your life. So I'm interested in

1:14:57

this. But just teach me. So if I

1:15:00

say something that I'm not supposed to, I

1:15:02

learn from you. So that way you have

1:15:04

yourself covered. Even if you say something that

1:15:06

is that you're not supposed to say, you

1:15:08

already are telling him that I'm willing to

1:15:10

learn from. Right. If I could just if

1:15:12

I could just send you a little bit

1:15:15

of comfort here, Christian. I think

1:15:17

all of this that you were doing right

1:15:20

here, right now, all of this back and

1:15:22

forth, all of this, oh, gosh, I

1:15:24

just I just care about my son.

1:15:26

I just want him to know that

1:15:28

I don't want him to go down

1:15:30

this bad path that could harm himself

1:15:32

or others. I think I think you

1:15:35

were on the right track, brother. And

1:15:37

that's good. That's huge. Because unfortunately, too

1:15:39

many times in this world, it goes

1:15:41

the opposite direction. Right. And we see

1:15:43

this especially from the religious side, right?

1:15:45

We on the non religious side need

1:15:47

to make sure that we're not engaging

1:15:49

in the practices that we call out

1:15:51

as harmful on the religious side. Just

1:15:54

because we're not religious doesn't mean that

1:15:56

those practices aren't still harmful. And again,

1:15:58

honestly, brother, I think you're really going

1:16:00

about this the right way. And

1:16:03

I would love if you would just give us

1:16:05

some updates, you know, just let us know in

1:16:07

the future, like how this goes for you, because

1:16:10

maybe there's something here that can help other people

1:16:12

as well. Armin, any other thoughts? Yeah,

1:16:14

two things, two things, Kirsten. One line

1:16:16

that I don't know if it works

1:16:18

for you or not, but one line

1:16:21

that might help, and you could consider

1:16:23

it or not, but one line that

1:16:25

might really, really help to maintain this

1:16:27

relationship is that you tell him that

1:16:29

once you tell him that you learned

1:16:32

about his new religion is the line

1:16:34

that you're my son and I love

1:16:36

you, and there's nothing that could change

1:16:38

that. So that line really gives a

1:16:41

sense of security to your

1:16:44

son about how

1:16:47

much strength is behind this bond that

1:16:49

you have with your son. I think

1:16:51

that's a very useful line to use.

1:16:53

And also the second thing I want

1:16:55

to say is just still in line

1:16:57

with that, which is more whatever habits

1:17:00

you have in your family to express love within

1:17:03

to another, it doesn't hurt to increase

1:17:05

that, you know, just to make sure

1:17:07

that a lot of people

1:17:09

within families, again, I don't know about

1:17:11

your family, but a lot of love between

1:17:13

members of family are assumed, and everybody knows

1:17:16

that they love each other. And that's why

1:17:18

they don't express it. And I think it

1:17:20

just helps when it comes to increasing the

1:17:22

bonds within the family, people don't know, some

1:17:25

people don't understand that the expression is

1:17:27

important, even though if every even if everyone

1:17:29

is aware of it, and everyone knows that

1:17:31

it's there, there is utility in actually expressing

1:17:33

the love. So keep telling each other that

1:17:35

you love each other, remind each other that

1:17:37

you love each other, and that you will

1:17:39

be there for each other. Yes, for sure.

1:17:42

Yeah. Well, thank you, Christian. Thank you so

1:17:44

much, man, for for hanging out with us

1:17:46

and calling us. Yeah, we really appreciate it.

1:17:48

And I do think I think I think

1:17:50

there's a lot here for a lot of

1:17:52

our audience. And funny

1:17:54

enough, there's, I know already a

1:17:56

bunch of our audience that have

1:17:58

had similar experiences. as well. So

1:18:01

make sure to go check out all the

1:18:03

fan run socials, you know, the Facebooks and

1:18:05

the Discord. I'll actually be hanging out in

1:18:07

the Discord later on after this show. So

1:18:11

please, you know, if you if you have time, come

1:18:13

and come and hang out with us. And then again,

1:18:15

before we let you go, Christian, I just want to

1:18:17

say, give us a call back, brother.

1:18:19

Give us a call back, let us know how this

1:18:21

works out. If it's if it's good, we'll celebrate with

1:18:23

you and we'll spread the message. And if it's bad,

1:18:25

we'll lament with you and we'll be there to support

1:18:28

you. So thanks so much, man. And I hope you

1:18:30

have a great rest of your day. I

1:18:32

don't know exactly what time it is in

1:18:34

Denmark. I have to imagine it's it's it's

1:18:37

not early in the

1:18:39

day. I have to imagine it is

1:18:41

probably close to midnight, brother. So seriously,

1:18:43

that that is awesome. We have a

1:18:45

bunch, a bunch of theists on the

1:18:48

line. And I am just thrilled by

1:18:50

that. So we are coming

1:18:52

to every single one of you. Right

1:18:54

before I do that, I have to

1:18:56

shout out the wonderful people who helped

1:18:59

make this show possible. And you

1:19:01

think you think you think I'm going to

1:19:03

say nice words about the crew here. I'm

1:19:05

not actually I'm not going to do that. Okay,

1:19:07

I would not ask for a camera to

1:19:09

be like a picture of all the amazing

1:19:11

crew to be put up so that we could

1:19:13

say nice things about them. Because if we

1:19:15

did that, I would never live it down.

1:19:17

Like if we got right here right now

1:19:20

on screen, like a crew

1:19:22

cam shot or something, right? If we

1:19:24

showed all of those people, I

1:19:27

would never, I would never say

1:19:29

something like these are the backbone

1:19:31

of this entire organization, the individuals

1:19:34

you see here and see down

1:19:36

in the chat and moderating all

1:19:39

the socials. They are the ones that keep

1:19:41

the wheels turning. I would never say something

1:19:43

like that. I would never talk about how

1:19:45

amazing they all are as

1:19:47

volunteers, super, super wonderful people again,

1:19:50

which I would never say I would never

1:19:52

want to say that on camera. I'd never

1:19:54

want to, you know, have to

1:19:56

defend that claim. It is a positive claim. And

1:19:58

I just I'm not sure if the evidence is

1:20:00

there. No, of course, I'm getting phenomenal. Also

1:20:02

have to shout out the wonderful super

1:20:04

chatters out there. Like for instance, Godless

1:20:06

Doctor sending us $4.99 saying, dog or

1:20:09

God. I

1:20:11

like that. I'm okay with that. I'm

1:20:14

not against it, to be honest. Cats

1:20:16

might have some things to say, but

1:20:18

we've also got $1.99 from Marie saying,

1:20:21

do people realize that God is Santa

1:20:23

for adults? Yeah, I mean, kind of,

1:20:25

right? That and like unicorns and bigfoot

1:20:27

and whatnot. We've also got $5.00

1:20:31

Canadian from Life on Atlantis saying, if

1:20:33

I say mad scientist, do you think

1:20:35

Jekyll and Hyde or Frankenstein? But if

1:20:38

I say religious nut, you're not thinking

1:20:40

of a fictional person anymore. Well, that

1:20:42

is a really, I know that is

1:20:44

a sharp point there. That is a

1:20:47

sharp point life on Atlantis. We

1:20:49

also have, I already shouted out Michael

1:20:52

Bell. Thank you so much for mentioning

1:20:54

Recovering from Religion, a super great organization,

1:20:56

secular therapy project as well, another great

1:20:58

organization. And of course, I have

1:21:00

to shout out one of our

1:21:03

wonderful, wonderful members. Been a member

1:21:05

for two freaking years. The Earth

1:21:07

traveled around in an elliptical path

1:21:09

around the sun twice, twice. And

1:21:12

that's how long Quantum Answer has

1:21:14

been a member and to help

1:21:16

this wonderful community. Quantum Answer just

1:21:19

gifted 10 atheist experience memberships. What,

1:21:21

what? So if you just

1:21:23

got one of those memberships, make sure to

1:21:25

thank Quantum Answer and then spam the chat

1:21:27

with all of those emojis because

1:21:30

we love emojis. We do love

1:21:32

them to death. We

1:21:34

are going to grab another call

1:21:37

here. Let's go talk to John

1:21:39

in California. He, him. John,

1:21:41

you are on the atheist experience. And

1:21:43

before we go any further, I just want

1:21:45

to say, I believe you and I talked

1:21:48

last week. And I don't

1:21:50

think we did. Yeah. Yeah. And I

1:21:52

don't think it went fantastically. And so

1:21:54

I would like to do the best

1:21:57

we possibly can to make this a

1:21:59

good conversation. Okay, it says

1:22:01

here. Awesome. I

1:22:03

want to just make sure we are

1:22:05

starting off on the same page. What

1:22:08

I have in front of me says,

1:22:10

Jesus is food. I

1:22:13

have mathematical evidence to prove

1:22:15

this. Now, is

1:22:17

that fair? Is that what you're calling

1:22:19

about? And if so, let's just dig

1:22:21

into it, brother, because I am very,

1:22:23

very interested in this. That's the second

1:22:25

part that I'm calling about. Well, what

1:22:27

I wanted to talk about first and

1:22:29

what I wanted to jump right into, because you guys

1:22:31

have been asking for this. And this is actually what

1:22:34

I meant to do last week. It was my fault

1:22:36

for getting sidetracked. So that's why I wanted to start

1:22:38

right off. You know, start off right off the bat

1:22:40

to stay focused so it doesn't get sidetracked. All

1:22:42

right. But I believe I genuinely have mathematical

1:22:45

proof of a deity. Not, you know, I

1:22:47

have, I would have to support this, you

1:22:49

know, to make the connection between Matt and

1:22:51

Jesus. I have some more work to do.

1:22:53

But I think a logical place to start would be here. Yeah,

1:22:56

yeah, I'm fine with, hey, look, you got

1:22:58

some connection with this particular deity and

1:23:01

the Jesus. Okay, cool. But

1:23:03

it sounds like you have a fairly

1:23:05

robust little bit of info here that

1:23:07

you are going to present to

1:23:10

myself and Armin. I am ready

1:23:12

for this. I am not the greatest mathematician

1:23:15

in the world. But second place ain't bad. I don't have

1:23:17

to be at all. I'm just kidding, man. No,

1:23:19

yeah, it's just easy. Anyway, I

1:23:21

think I'm ready for this mathematical proof

1:23:24

of a deity of some kind. If

1:23:27

Armin's ready to, I say let's go for

1:23:29

it. So what you got? All right.

1:23:31

So the first place we have to start,

1:23:33

the first premise that the rest of this

1:23:35

logic is based on is that the math

1:23:38

energy equivalent is true. E equals mc squared.

1:23:40

We could waste a lot of time proving

1:23:42

that, but would you be willing to just

1:23:44

give, you know, it's not like you've got

1:23:46

the dog now. That's something that's kind of

1:23:49

comfortable with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

1:23:51

Interested to see where we go from here.

1:23:53

Honestly was not expecting E equals mc squared

1:23:56

to come up at all. Fascinated

1:23:58

that it is the first thing that came. So

1:24:00

yes, I'm on board. I love it. I

1:24:02

love e I love M and

1:24:04

C's getting squared all for it Where

1:24:06

do we go from there? All right

1:24:08

from here? I want to propose a

1:24:11

thought experiment I want to propose

1:24:13

and this is it like I said, this

1:24:15

is a thought experiment I know very well.

1:24:18

There are physical limits why you could never

1:24:20

build this in reality I'm not telling anybody

1:24:22

to do this at home Be

1:24:24

very scary if somebody tried to do

1:24:26

this so that's not it's just a

1:24:28

thought experiment But I want you to put

1:24:30

the way I picture it in the firearm

1:24:32

I yeah That's a touchy-sab desk for some

1:24:35

people but it's a tube with the ball

1:24:37

that gets shot up shot out at the

1:24:39

end That's all that matters is it we're

1:24:41

not we're not even worried about the ball

1:24:43

that much But what I'm talking about is

1:24:45

we're gonna take like the platonic ideal of

1:24:47

this something that obviously couldn't be built in

1:24:49

reality but like the

1:24:51

ideal 100% thermal efficient perfect

1:24:56

Projectile system where and I'm

1:24:58

just gonna zoom out just

1:25:00

because I know that it's a slightly subject I'm

1:25:02

not trying to use the word firearm I'm just

1:25:04

gonna describe this in the most general physical time

1:25:06

and we get to the point We just take

1:25:08

you a while. Can you get can you get

1:25:11

us to the point? Yeah, okay So

1:25:13

we have a device that converts

1:25:15

the potential energy of fuel into

1:25:17

the kinetic energy of a projectile

1:25:20

Whatever we want to call that that's all

1:25:22

I'm asking you to picture. Yeah, I'm with

1:25:24

you My argument now is that so I'm

1:25:26

trying to picture the most efficient version of

1:25:28

that by my definition The

1:25:31

most and again, I know this can't be

1:25:33

done in reality, but we're this hypothetical

1:25:35

Oh my can you join me? Can

1:25:38

you just not repeat what the things that

1:25:40

you have said because this is already taking

1:25:43

a long time We need

1:25:45

to get to the point you keep saying I can't this

1:25:47

cannot be done in reality Stop

1:25:49

repeating yourself get to the point. I'm

1:25:51

getting there So the most efficient version

1:25:53

of this device possible would be one

1:25:56

where all the fuel all of the

1:25:58

mass in the fuel Put their

1:26:00

is completely annihilated and buy some

1:26:02

magically one hundred percent thermally efficient

1:26:04

process. All of that energy is

1:26:06

converted to the projectile if we

1:26:08

accept that this thing is a

1:26:10

one hundred percent efficient at the

1:26:12

end. If the projectile started out

1:26:14

last week, it measures a kinetic

1:26:16

energy of it, and if it

1:26:18

is truly one hundred percent thermally

1:26:21

as a chance, that kinetic energy

1:26:23

as the projectile must get him

1:26:25

losing your own same amount of

1:26:27

the. Moon's you

1:26:29

when fuel. Burns would send us your

1:26:31

are you talking about like you're talking

1:26:33

about during Nine when I there and

1:26:35

that you do have a good point

1:26:38

that it's not burning bridges burning implies

1:26:40

from Boston. I'm talking about why And

1:26:42

this is awesome. So you're for real

1:26:44

because it isn't as soon. As

1:26:47

a matter of his yards in finance

1:26:49

or or or is so all the

1:26:52

matter that you have turns into com

1:26:54

a recent older matter the you have

1:26:56

turns into a news That's what you

1:26:58

say. Yes to all of it was.

1:27:00

Discovered into the projectile. so by

1:27:02

measures to protect, I'd also entered

1:27:04

the amount of potential energy that

1:27:07

I had to start that conservation

1:27:09

of mass right of not safe

1:27:11

from him. Run to to the

1:27:13

point here. Is

1:27:16

my point. Here is my third

1:27:18

point. That's why the General my

1:27:20

General Relativity. We accepted the map

1:27:22

energy equivalent so we can have

1:27:24

to accept some of my bank

1:27:26

was what's the fastest Be that

1:27:28

that poets and possibly be traveling.

1:27:30

See the speed of light proceed as

1:27:32

soon as he saw this Brazil's and

1:27:34

so. We. Know the for kinetic

1:27:36

energy is one has ever gone.

1:27:38

Areas is going to take forever

1:27:40

and he says it's God's to

1:27:42

send someone to get the financing

1:27:45

their armored. Guards

1:27:47

advances from Americans from this

1:27:49

song is a C is

1:27:51

the highest possible value for

1:27:53

V. Weeks after that we

1:27:55

forget to our kinetic energy

1:27:57

formula C D V or

1:27:59

Vehicles. The To and are kinetic

1:28:01

energy is one half m C

1:28:03

squared At the beginning we said

1:28:06

that equals m c squared. We

1:28:08

only got half a mile energy

1:28:10

back where the other half go

1:28:12

with it. Would as this go

1:28:14

to do with God or get

1:28:16

their. This is based on a

1:28:18

tornado. Do Nobel prize in Physics?

1:28:20

Hang on. Hang on Zone. Hang

1:28:23

Those guys aren't I'm so sorry

1:28:25

because I wanted this to go.

1:28:27

well I did. I feel like

1:28:29

for the. Last seven and a half

1:28:31

minutes what we've been doing is just

1:28:33

like the hardest of hard core of

1:28:36

gazing at our navels and I'm not

1:28:38

sure that there is any more information

1:28:40

here will get us to this place

1:28:42

of like ah there you go that's

1:28:45

a god Now you accept it you

1:28:47

know because it really feels like really

1:28:49

feels like to me you're currently do

1:28:51

in one of those things which I

1:28:54

did all the time when I was

1:28:56

a believer where I would be like

1:28:58

yeah man that like think. About it,

1:29:00

man. Cause like is this is

1:29:02

the Ancient Hebrews man read the text

1:29:05

from you know a of ancient our

1:29:07

of muslims and like them mates you

1:29:09

know aliens and then like if you

1:29:11

take five. And you divide it by

1:29:14

five and we've got five singers Man

1:29:16

and I'm.spleen and my spleen has and

1:29:18

it's just when kind of hills like

1:29:20

were making a lot of really desperate

1:29:22

connections that don't really have the actual

1:29:24

bridge to the man. and I guess

1:29:26

I'm just have you run this by.

1:29:28

Have you run anything that you told

1:29:30

us and must first seven minutes of

1:29:32

this call? have iran any of it

1:29:34

by a mathematician? Has any physicist average

1:29:36

rent or buy a physics professor in

1:29:39

college and they named a set of

1:29:41

units after me. They named. A set

1:29:43

of units after you. Okay, I'm receiving

1:29:45

and pertinent. This is just as a

1:29:47

true Hi Darren A Be arm college

1:29:50

arm It's call it at John are

1:29:52

it's call it it I'm sorry I'm

1:29:54

sorry Ah I I I gotta. I

1:29:56

gotta gotta agree with a man. Yeah

1:30:00

I'm thinking about asking you was what

1:30:02

what those are but to be honest

1:30:04

John I, I, I don't know how

1:30:06

serious you are. I was worried when

1:30:09

I took the call but damn I'm

1:30:11

glad you had a real hundred and

1:30:13

with put it out there now one.

1:30:15

Of the Nsx if troll u ten as make.

1:30:17

It. Is obvious. Let me just say

1:30:19

like this. I mean make is he

1:30:22

aware. We ended last week's John. I

1:30:24

believe the point at which I've really

1:30:26

had to throw in the towel was

1:30:28

when you said to me, god is

1:30:31

photosynthesis now is that was rough for

1:30:33

media here and we're not even and

1:30:35

person's together. So anyway, I'm on. Let's

1:30:38

go John. Ah, I hope I hope

1:30:40

that that journey was fun for folks

1:30:42

and I hope they got something out

1:30:45

of it because I didn't. Ah so

1:30:47

as. To first we're just a few

1:30:49

other wonderful be for whether we gots

1:30:51

couple of the as we're going to

1:30:53

get to see all rice freak and

1:30:55

now because we always loved to talk

1:30:57

with our theist friends out there we

1:30:59

are gonna go out to Washington we're

1:31:01

going to talk with good the he

1:31:03

him as a theist and wants to

1:31:05

give us an argument for god's a

1:31:07

job you are talking with Armand have

1:31:09

a hobby and secular rarity worth is

1:31:11

a victory for to to Michael for

1:31:13

some Cohen said thanks for Carlin what's

1:31:15

the what's it got for us today.

1:31:17

Sounds like you've got a saw

1:31:19

an argument for garden and we

1:31:21

love it. If you are on

1:31:23

speakerphone by the way take us

1:31:25

off real quick. if you don't

1:31:27

mind on not and of nowhere

1:31:29

is gonna is gonna be to

1:31:31

swim mama I'm into presupposition onto

1:31:33

it's so the argument for god

1:31:35

that I would run is actually

1:31:37

very similar to the apathetic gonna

1:31:40

olden times your surgeries on the

1:31:42

shore or management on how gone

1:31:44

to the necessary precondition for knowledge.

1:31:46

We have knowledge to God. At

1:31:48

some point you guys on

1:31:50

wanna do something about op

1:31:52

Board of Directors were at

1:31:54

least vision is bouncing Soundness

1:31:56

I think is where the

1:31:58

problem comes in. Armin also mentioned

1:32:01

a potential equivocation problem. So yeah, Armin, did

1:32:03

you have anything you want to say real

1:32:05

quick before? Just tell us, just get to

1:32:07

the point why knowledge therefore God? Why knowledge

1:32:10

therefore God? Yeah. Right. So

1:32:12

you were questioning Him on premise one.

1:32:14

How do you... Okay, forget Him. Forget

1:32:16

Him. Forget Him. You believe

1:32:18

knowledge therefore God? Why is not... Why knowledge

1:32:20

therefore God? Well, are you asking me to

1:32:22

give an account for the first premise? Because

1:32:24

I'm going to run the same argument. I'm

1:32:26

asking you why knowledge... Do you believe

1:32:28

in knowledge therefore God? Do you believe that? No,

1:32:31

the argument is God is the necessary

1:32:33

precondition for knowledge. We have knowledge therefore

1:32:35

God. That is the argument... Right. And

1:32:38

Armin's just shortening it a little bit.

1:32:40

And Armin's just trying to shorten it

1:32:42

a little bit so that we can

1:32:44

actually discuss it, man. So yeah, like

1:32:46

if you accept that argument, which it

1:32:48

very much sounds like you do, just

1:32:51

give us some more clarification on it,

1:32:54

man. When it comes to

1:32:56

the classroom, when they were handing out

1:32:58

people like when different students

1:33:00

like assignments on who

1:33:02

does what proof of God, I think you got...

1:33:04

When the precept people are the people who said

1:33:07

that the very, very back, I think you were

1:33:09

the special kids area. Like I don't understand

1:33:11

how are you even taken

1:33:13

seriously among your own... Among

1:33:15

believers themselves. I mean, it's

1:33:18

not just atheists that make... Like

1:33:20

should be making fun of these arguments. I think

1:33:22

other believers should be asking, begging you to please

1:33:24

stop. Like if a more atheist would hear you

1:33:26

guys, they think we're all this stupid. Armin, that's

1:33:28

just a red herring. So actually, the psychopath gave

1:33:30

you a disjunctive... I wasn't... No, no, no, no,

1:33:33

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

1:33:35

no, no, no, no, no, no, that was neither

1:33:37

red herring. I wasn't making an argument. I was

1:33:39

making an observation. For this to be in red

1:33:41

herring, I would have to make an argument for

1:33:43

this to be a logical fallacy. I was just

1:33:46

making an observation. So no, it was not a

1:33:48

red herring. But either way, let's just get to

1:33:50

the meat of it. Let's get to the meat

1:33:52

of it, Jib. Why knowledge?

1:33:54

Okay, so why knowledge therefore God?

1:33:56

Why? Are you asking me for

1:33:59

the syllogism? for premise one of your

1:34:01

history. Sure. If that's going to be the way that

1:34:03

we move further. You

1:34:05

guys, here's how you, here's

1:34:07

why talking to you guys

1:34:10

is a waste of time,

1:34:12

OK? Because your arguments are

1:34:14

so dumb that

1:34:17

the only way you can make

1:34:19

it sound intelligent is to turn

1:34:21

the most basic statement to sound

1:34:23

like they're philosophical. It's

1:34:25

so obvious what I'm asking, but

1:34:27

you want to use big words

1:34:29

to make it seem like they're

1:34:31

intelligent. And they should not work.

1:34:34

People should understand how stupid and

1:34:36

idiotic these claims are. And all

1:34:38

your big words are not going

1:34:40

to fool people. Why knowledge, therefore

1:34:42

God? Explain that. So either God

1:34:44

is a necessary precondition for knowledge,

1:34:46

or He is not a necessary

1:34:48

precondition for knowledge. I'm setting up

1:34:50

a disjunct of syllogism. And then

1:34:52

I'm saying, God is not

1:34:54

the necessary precondition for knowledge. So therefore,

1:34:56

or what is God must be the

1:34:58

necessary precondition. Right, but then you do

1:35:00

realize, though, that what you've done is

1:35:02

you've kicked the can down the road,

1:35:04

right? I mean, I appreciate that, because

1:35:07

at least we've taken a few steps

1:35:09

further in this argument. But you understand

1:35:11

then that all you've done is just

1:35:13

say, well, it has to be. And

1:35:16

so ultimately, what we would need then is

1:35:19

the breakdown, the justification, the

1:35:21

argument in syllogism form, if

1:35:23

in you like. But we

1:35:25

would need an understanding of

1:35:27

why God is not not

1:35:29

the necessary thing, right? Currently,

1:35:31

all we're doing is saying

1:35:33

it has to be this

1:35:35

and just moving on. In

1:35:37

the hypothetical where we go, hey,

1:35:39

guys, let's just for a minute assume

1:35:41

that this has been rigorously demonstrated, then

1:35:44

all of this stuff is true. And

1:35:46

it's like, yeah, sure, fine. OK, cool.

1:35:48

But the issue is still you have

1:35:51

to demonstrate that God is a necessary

1:35:53

precondition for knowledge. So if you're just

1:35:55