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0:32

Athletic Hello,

0:42

this is the Athletic Football Tactics

0:44

Podcast. I'm Ali Maxwell, and this

0:46

week, the Champions League is our

0:48

main event. So it's apt

0:50

that I'm joined by Demyster, DeBeston,

0:54

Mark Carey, Liam Tharm and

0:56

Michael Cox of The Athletic. Hi, guys.

0:58

Hello. Hello. A reference there, Michael, to

1:02

the lyrics of the Champions League

1:04

anthem. Right. The beloved Champions League.

1:06

Of course. Yeah. The

1:09

next line is Les Grande Zéquip. I couldn't

1:11

work out how I would

1:13

get the best teams into the... You

1:15

get the point. The guys are with

1:17

me to talk through the Champions League semi-finals

1:19

and look ahead to the final, which will

1:21

take place at Wembley. And it

1:24

will include Real Madrid and

1:26

Dortmund. A surprise

1:28

final in many ways. When

1:31

we previewed the quarterfinals, I made you

1:33

guys put together a power rankings of

1:35

the eight teams left in the competition.

1:37

Real Madrid came in at number two

1:39

pre-quarterfinals. Dortmund, eight out of

1:41

eight. So looking forward to

1:43

hearing how they've made it to

1:45

the final. But first, Real Madrid

1:48

and Bayern Munich, the semi-final, which

1:50

concluded late last night with Real

1:52

Madrid winning 4-3 on aggregate. 2-1

1:54

on the night with late goals to

1:56

turn this one around.

1:58

Michael. What were the key factors

2:01

in Real Madrid's victory? Well, they're a funny one. I mean,

2:03

as you can see here, I've got a piece of paper

2:05

with lots of notes I made throughout the game up until

2:08

about 85 minutes. Because

2:10

basically everything that happened in the first 85 minutes

2:12

was a little bit relevant in terms of saying

2:14

how Real Madrid won the game. But I thought

2:17

they were the better team. I thought they were

2:19

the better team by far on the night. I

2:21

thought they dominated most of the game. I thought

2:23

Tony Krosz was fantastic in dictating the tempo. The

2:26

fluidity of the front players we've commented on before,

2:28

but I think it's really quite striking compared to

2:30

the way a lot of other top teams are playing at the

2:33

moment. The one thing they didn't have, and I think it was

2:35

notable that they didn't have this, was they didn't have anyone making

2:38

basically goal scoring runs. Often they got the

2:40

ball wide and Rodrigo Venizis kind of pulled

2:42

off, Bellingham's kind of trying to get into

2:44

the box, but not quite into the six-yard

2:46

box. And of course, that's what they had

2:48

later with Hostelu. But overall, I thought they

2:50

played quite well. I didn't think Bayern offered

2:52

too much really. Sporadic

2:54

counter-attacking threat, but quite poor decisions

2:56

on the break, I thought. Just a note

2:58

on Tony Krosz. He was absolutely the

3:00

metronome for Real Madrid last night. I know that

3:03

Michael's got a piece out on him. But numbers-wise,

3:05

he made 101 passes across the game, which was

3:07

more than any other player on the pitch. And

3:09

he came off after 69 minutes, which I think

3:12

is in itself quite telling. And

3:14

his passing accuracy was 95% across the whole game. But

3:17

they weren't simple, five, 10-yard passes. There

3:19

was a lot of diagonals to the

3:21

right-hand side, which again, goes to show

3:23

just how well-clust he is.

3:26

A note of the rotations across the

3:28

front three, really, Rodrigo, Vanissas Jr.

3:30

and Bellingham. They attacked so

3:32

much towards that left-hand side. And I think

3:34

it was partly because Joshua Kimmick was struggling

3:36

a little bit at right-back. But

3:39

they had 44% of attacking touches in

3:41

the left-third of the pitch. And just

3:44

19% in the middle third of the pitch,

3:46

which was comfortably the lowest share through the

3:48

middle in the Champions League this season four,

3:50

Real Madrid, which I thought was quite interesting for

3:53

two reasons. I think partly because Bayern Munich were

3:56

being really compact in a 4-4-2 out of possession

3:58

And trying to limit Real Madrid's. Going

4:00

through the middle. partly. Because

4:02

of the rotations of those players as well

4:04

but mainly predominately because Mrs. Jr was just

4:06

he had the being just a gimmick and

4:08

again I look into the numbers fourteen take

4:11

on across the whole game for Venice's units

4:13

comfortably more than any of the game the

4:15

season for him an assist most from any

4:17

player in her somebody came the season as

4:19

well so he was just he had to

4:21

being of his man A was clear that

4:23

allows that's the danger I I love the

4:25

ball was going on and also because that's

4:27

where Christmas and he was the one who

4:29

is distributing it and we're not doing the.

4:32

First i didn't even if is paid that

4:34

much to the left it is quite central

4:36

valley him with clay the play on the

4:38

left of the for the as soon as

4:40

Venice's became his want to that.the second half

4:43

than it is fun with everything that went

4:45

to the suspect that that this fluidity between

4:47

those from players and skewing out to the

4:49

left hand side that when when we talk

4:51

about some the top teams in england we

4:53

often talk about how automated a lot of

4:56

the attacking play looks nowadays and predictable made

4:58

it being the wrong word but when we

5:00

see those patterns we we recognize. Them

5:02

and they look coached and drilled

5:04

to what extent is is. do

5:07

you understand this Real Madrid fluidity

5:09

to be Ancelotti empowering his plan

5:11

to do whatever they like and

5:13

feel confident in doing so or

5:16

ancelotti training them to be fluid.

5:18

Set of these pistons on chaotic

5:20

but actually. Functional and an effective

5:22

I think is organized chaos but in in

5:24

the way the Ancelotti empowers his players are

5:26

that you spoke about that before I think

5:28

before the first leg so it was devoted

5:31

organized chaos me what well as as about

5:33

I'll answer it with a coy the he

5:35

he gave before the first leg and he

5:37

said i'm very clear that there are two

5:39

types of creatures those who do nothing and

5:41

those who do a lot of damage I

5:43

to see in the fast The game is

5:45

for the players and you can tell them

5:47

a sense to Tj convince them but then

5:49

the decisive thing is that quality commitment to

5:51

when. He's I mean think about that. the

5:53

pies he's managed. he can. He can be

5:55

very confident that that they will. Do.

5:58

things that he can't necessarily cokes and So he gives

6:00

them the freedom, the autonomy to be

6:02

able to do those things. And my

6:04

colleague John Muller did a piece earlier this week about

6:06

Real Madrid's kind of fluidity and how there's

6:09

unlikely heroes. And you think about who played the cross

6:11

for the winner. It was Antonio Rudiger and the person

6:13

who knocked it in was Hostelich, who I'm sure will

6:15

come on to. That's not

6:17

by chance. That's just the fact that each player is kind

6:19

of empowered. And I know that it was from a set

6:22

piece that it was Rudiger being in high area. But

6:25

I do think that kind of explains the organised

6:28

chaos or the organised fluidity

6:30

that he gives the freedom to his players.

6:32

But I don't think it really works on

6:35

the night. I mean, they needed

6:37

to chuck on a number nine and get two

6:39

goals in the last two minutes. I don't think

6:41

they created that many clear chances. And like I

6:43

say, I think if that's organised as other managers

6:45

would, you could still play without a traditional number

6:47

nine. But there'd be more emphasis on making sure

6:50

someone is always making that run. I mean, maybe

6:52

kind of like Arsenal do. I know Arsenal play

6:54

with a proper striker a lot of

6:56

the time. But they have different players popping up there.

6:58

I thought a lot of the time Real didn't have

7:00

anyone popping up there. And without Hostelu coming on and

7:02

pretty much completely changing the system, then

7:05

obviously they go out despite dominating. Has

7:07

it or was it not in the

7:09

first half of the season, particularly Birmingham

7:11

typically taking up number nine type positions?

7:13

Yeah, and I think he's he

7:16

has faded in the second half of the season. I

7:18

mean, he was never going to sustain the numbers that

7:20

he was putting up in the first half of the

7:22

season. But he hasn't been that much of a goal

7:24

threat, really, in the kind of, well, in the big

7:27

champ his league games. I think he's basically played well.

7:29

But you're right in the first half of the season,

7:31

there was a bit of a debate. What we're looking

7:33

at here is he an attacking midfielder? Is he a

7:35

false number nine? Is he just a number nine? I

7:38

mean, he hasn't really played that role recently in this

7:40

game, really. Without the ball, he was the left of

7:42

the midfield for the Valverde on the other side and

7:44

the two Brazilians up front. So, yeah, they have

7:47

lost a little bit of that. And of course,

7:49

that's why there has been more need for for

7:51

Hostelu. I've

7:53

got a question more than a point to make,

7:55

but generally, I was stepping on

7:57

my toes. Knowing

8:00

Kimmich of course does play this rough with Germany as

8:02

well being a nominal midfielder that

8:05

plays fullback and apparently likes it more than

8:07

maybe he gets sort of credit for were

8:09

you guys surprised to see Tucho stick with that

8:12

of When you know they've got

8:14

that left side of Fert Real especially at home and

8:16

they've got multiple players that can pop up their own

8:18

Beardribbling threat It was interesting

8:20

when I watched Germany recently against

8:22

France and he did okay against

8:24

Mbappe But you've always got the the

8:27

sense that it's quite a Containing job that

8:29

you're never really able to really sort of win

8:31

that duel You're just sort of hoping every time

8:33

that they're not going to get inside you're limiting

8:35

it to A shot from distance or you know

8:37

having to then double up and leave someone free

8:39

elsewhere I know the goal technically comes from from

8:41

a shot being allowed But really you're saying that's

8:43

kind of best-case scenario and it's just getting a

8:45

shot from there And it's noir really makes a

8:47

mistake But I was just I guess surprised to

8:49

see a manager who's renowned for being so

8:52

well structured defensively or that being his focus

8:54

in that bigger game to You

8:57

know He did a veggie make a switch to a back

8:59

five which we can come on to but to Personal wise

9:01

not go to someone more defensive there or

9:03

more of a defensive jeweler did did surprise me

9:05

a little bit Would that most likely be Maz Rowie?

9:07

Yeah, I guess so looking at the squad that he

9:10

would seem like the obvious option and and how

9:12

confident would would you be? Liam to flip it back

9:14

on you that he would do better 1v1 against

9:16

a player like Vinicius It's probably just more natural. I

9:19

think more than anything. I mean he's played both

9:21

sides Full back football

9:23

or we met for club and country And I think

9:25

probably a bit quicker as well than the gimmick and

9:27

obviously you could then look at possibly like making a

9:29

more natural midfield role I

9:31

think a big part of this as well comes from In

9:33

a game where you want to see defend less and you want to

9:35

have more of the ball and be more of an attacking Force and

9:38

that was really I think My critique of

9:40

their switch to a back five and then bringing on a

9:42

center back was I thought they looked

9:44

okay defensively at the time Maybe they were

9:46

anticipating saying they're probably gonna throw hospital on

9:48

and go direct and starting You know more

9:50

crosses and a more direct approach So we need

9:52

to be prepared for that and not having to

9:54

scramble, but I thought they were counter-tacking Well, there's

9:57

that really good break where Kayden's up

9:59

playing the pass behind, I can see, is it

10:01

Nabri? I can't remember who it is running through

10:04

and it doesn't quite come off. Again, this

10:06

is then quite a good bit of hindsight

10:08

but I suppose where if they see up the game

10:10

with the back five, there you go, really smart decision,

10:12

see it out that way. But that

10:14

I do remember at the time being like, I'm

10:17

not entirely sure that was needed right now,

10:19

even though it might be theoretically quite sound.

10:21

I suppose with Alphonso Davis having started

10:23

on the bench, coming off it early

10:25

when Nabri was substituted in the first

10:27

half but on paper maybe a

10:30

man has Rowey at right back, Davies

10:32

at left back and then Michael, one

10:34

of the other interesting decisions was to

10:36

play the youngster Pavlovic in midfield and

10:38

in a high pressure environment, maybe

10:40

someone with the experience and the nouse

10:42

of Kimmich might have been another option

10:45

in the centre of the park. What did you make

10:47

of Pavlovic's performance? I thought he struggled a bit to

10:50

be honest, I thought his passing decision making wasn't

10:52

quite on it. I was surprised they

10:54

didn't play Keretska, who I think is just

10:56

a pretty solid all-rounder, pretty

10:58

good for where the Bonnebau has

11:00

a good relationship with Leimah. So yeah, he looks

11:02

a talented player Pavlovic but this was quite a

11:04

big game to throw him into. I

11:07

didn't think it worked particularly well. I mean

11:09

maybe the defining thing for for

11:12

Bayern was not something that was intentional,

11:14

you know, the key change really was

11:16

when Alphonso Davies came on for

11:18

Nabri, who did his hamstring and

11:21

that had two effects. The first was that they were

11:23

playing two left backs really down one

11:25

side and as we've said, Remedou

11:27

didn't attack at all down that side, I don't think

11:29

that's a coincidence. And the other thing

11:32

was that obviously Davies scored the opener and if

11:34

you end up with, you know, an

11:36

overlapping left back playing left

11:38

wing, left footed, the last thing

11:40

you expect is for him to come inside and curl with

11:43

his right foot and you can tell that Rudeko was

11:45

quite keen to show him inside, which didn't

11:47

turn out very well. So yeah,

11:49

it's funny how these things can happen. I thought that

11:52

really was the defining thing of the game, that enforced

11:54

change. I was also a little bit surprised they brought

11:56

on Davies in that role. I thought maybe they would

11:58

have brought on Thomas Muller. and moved Mozzarella

12:00

to the left. He wasn't getting that much of the ball

12:02

with the number 10. But that's what changed

12:04

the game. Valverde's got an interesting

12:06

role, doesn't he? As

12:09

you say, it was so explicit that Real Madrid

12:11

were attacking down the left side. You

12:13

almost feel a bit sorry for Valverde that

12:16

there's clearly very little onus on using his

12:18

own skills in possession. Michael, I

12:21

saw a tweet from a Real Madrid fan

12:23

that said, in the

12:25

current formation, Valverde's role is

12:27

incredibly similar to Beckham's when

12:29

he played for Real Madrid. And Bellingham

12:31

is playing the same role that Zidane used

12:33

to play when he played for

12:35

Real Madrid, which I thought was quite an interesting

12:38

one. But that Valverde role is, yeah,

12:40

it's atypical, I would say, for a modern

12:43

right-sided midfielder. I see the Bellingham comparison

12:45

more than the Valverde comparison, because Zidane

12:47

did often play from the left where

12:49

Real Madrid did, sometimes for

12:51

France. I think Valverde is all

12:54

just about energy. I mean, Beckham often

12:56

played inside the central midfielder

12:58

when Figo was out on the right. So I

13:00

think that's a little bit of a different thing.

13:02

But yeah, because they have so many players towards

13:04

the left, Valverde and Carverhal just have to cover

13:06

so much space. And that is what Valverde does

13:08

pretty manfully. Didn't think he was

13:10

particularly prominent here. And of course,

13:12

he was the player who was brought off when Hossalu came

13:14

on. But yeah, he's a very useful player.

13:16

I mean, he's had a couple of really good seasons for

13:18

Real Madrid. And Carverhal,

13:21

I thought had a pretty decent game always

13:23

collecting cruisers' diagonals. They've also got Vasquez who

13:25

they can bring in and was the star

13:27

when they beat Barfona in the Clasico a

13:29

couple of weeks ago. So they've

13:31

got just, yeah. I

13:35

mean, Joanne Cruyff always used to say that

13:37

the left side was like the exciting side

13:39

and the right side was the functional side.

13:41

I think that works pretty well for this Real Madrid team. And

13:45

let's talk about Hossalu without

13:47

mentioning any of his former clubs. He's

13:51

an interesting player

13:54

at elite level football, Liam.

13:56

And it harks back to a podcast that we

13:58

did in the last few months. about

14:01

Plan B's and

14:03

how in the Premier League, looking at the

14:06

six biggest teams in the Premier League who are often

14:08

competing in these European competitions,

14:11

this backup number nine doesn't

14:14

really exist in the majority of

14:16

those squads. You know, Manketia

14:18

of Arsenal is probably the most classic

14:20

backup number nine that one of those

14:23

big six clubs have. But some

14:26

of the continental clubs have players

14:28

like Hosselou or Tupermoting who people

14:30

don't consider to be elite level

14:32

number nines but serve a very

14:34

specific purpose as shown here. Yeah,

14:36

completely. I guess we'll come on to

14:39

Dorman as well but they have Falkkruk

14:41

who is kind of that profile but is their

14:43

starting number nine and Hosselou is obviously now back

14:45

in the Spain setup as well, Falkkruk

14:47

is playing internationally so it's kind of I think

14:49

something that feels like it's spilt over a bit

14:51

from the World Cup of everyone going in specifically

14:54

knockout games where there's gonna be times where

14:58

your style becomes a lot less important because you

15:00

just need to score a goal to stay alive

15:02

in a competition or to not get knocked out

15:04

and you go okay we're gonna not necessarily scrap

15:06

our our way of playing but we

15:08

need to go direct and start crossing and I

15:10

thought Rudi had some really good a couple of

15:13

really good deliveries actually from sort of stepping forward

15:15

and then and then crossing from deep

15:17

and at times you clubs are then just

15:19

prepared to say that let's go for that that

15:21

target man, Falkkruk approach and it's just having a

15:23

different profile. Again this is probably an interesting point

15:25

of comparison that it's something that will

15:28

come into the PSG game properly but I think

15:30

they don't really have they kind of have in

15:32

Gonzalo Ramos but you saw a team who were

15:34

kind of playing in a similar way to what

15:36

Real were doing of against a team that was

15:38

then sat deep and prepared to counter against the

15:40

back five and smashing in crosses and

15:42

the difference being they didn't

15:44

really have that play that was gonna you know they

15:47

don't score as many head of goals but it's just

15:49

an avenue that you need in order to be to

15:51

be diverse and to be varied because at certain times

15:53

and again because it's not the majority of games I

15:55

guess recruitment is never going to be for most big

15:57

clubs structured that way or go that way

15:59

because you might need this player five percent at

16:01

the time or ten percent at the time, but it might be

16:03

in the biggest game of the season or in the biggest moments

16:05

that you do need them. Well, PSG did have that player in

16:08

the form of Eric Chupomoting, so it's

16:10

funny how he's now the one to

16:12

have left PSG. But no, I agree. I

16:14

know we've done the episode on it in

16:16

terms of it being a very specific type

16:19

of player, but also type of personality to

16:21

be comfortable within that environment to know that

16:23

you're not going to be maybe the star

16:25

man, but you will have those moments like

16:28

we saw with the Hossaloo brace,

16:30

I suppose, rather than single goal. But just to

16:32

add numbers to that, he's now scored 17 goals

16:34

in all competitions for AL this season, which is

16:36

only behind Jude Bellingham on 22 and Vanistas Jr.

16:39

on 21. So he isn't just

16:41

a sort of a cult hero in the form

16:43

of maybe a Divock Origi who maybe people inflate

16:45

his importance when he actually didn't score all that

16:47

many goals. He's actually putting up really good numbers

16:49

as well. So when you need someone to come

16:52

and score goals, as very much as did last

16:54

night, you were pretty confident that he

16:56

would actually make an impact. You

16:58

said we weren't allowed to mention his former clubs,

17:00

but I'm going to mention the fact that in 2010-11,

17:02

he was part of Real Madrid's B team. And

17:05

also in that B team was Denny

17:08

Carvajal and Nacho, and also

17:10

other quite useful players at some points

17:12

like Hesse, Alvaro

17:14

Morata. And obviously Barcelona has got

17:16

a lot of pros over the years for their

17:19

academy, and they brought through, I think,

17:21

some of the best players in the world, obviously

17:23

Jovi and Nesna and Messi, top three

17:25

of the Bell on Dore in one year. Real

17:27

don't always produce that level of player, but

17:30

they always produce workmen like very useful

17:32

players who often stick around. I know, also

17:35

someone who's just come back. But

17:37

their academy has been really useful for them over

17:39

the years, particularly, I'd say, in

17:41

the big Champions League games, when you just need

17:43

someone to do a job. I think Nacho has

17:46

had a really good few games in

17:48

the Champions League. I think Carvajal has been

17:50

excellent. Vasquez, as I've said. And he's

17:52

another one who, yeah, he went away for the best part

17:54

of a decade, but he was

17:56

in their youth system for seven years.

17:59

And currently, I'll... loan from a team in

18:01

the second tier of Spanish football in Español,

18:03

I mean scored 16 in

18:06

La Liga as they were relegated last season. It's

18:08

basically the equivalent of if

18:11

Man City had loaned

18:13

Jamie Vardy from Leicester

18:15

this season to play

18:17

10-15 minutes off the bench

18:20

poaching in the box when they're dominating

18:22

trying to find a winner which kind

18:24

of makes unbelievable sense. Anyway,

18:28

last word on Bayern because we're going to come back to

18:30

the final in a second, Too-Hool catching

18:33

some heat online

18:35

on account of the substitutions that

18:37

he made and I'd like to

18:39

know how much of

18:41

this is outcome bias because subs were

18:43

made, Bayern threw away a lead, Bayern

18:45

lost the game, how much of it

18:47

is legitimate criticism, subs that changed the

18:50

flow of the game and against Bayern

18:52

Munich? For me it's

18:54

the former, I think it is a little bit of

18:56

outcome bias, one reason being that

18:58

only the night before Dortmund did the same

19:00

thing in terms of bring on Nicolas Sula

19:02

moving to a back five and everyone's lauding

19:04

them for being really sort of tight

19:07

and compact and seeing the game out. Obviously

19:09

as we know Bayern Munich didn't see the game out so

19:11

we're going to sort of retrospectively try

19:13

and reverse the narrative a little bit. I

19:15

think that there's rumours of Kane

19:17

maybe having a bit of an injury so I don't

19:19

know whether that played into it a little bit but

19:22

he played to 85 minutes and they brought on Thomas

19:24

Muller who was a very very experienced player and of

19:26

course Tu-Promoting as well to hold up the play so

19:28

I think that when they

19:30

won nil up they wanted to sort of

19:32

maybe play slightly longer, have those two players

19:34

kind of hassle and hurry the defence and

19:36

see the game out which wasn't too much

19:38

to maybe ask in about 10 minutes worth

19:40

of play so I think that bit in

19:43

terms of the narrative of bringing Harry Kane off one of the

19:45

best players in the world at the moment

19:47

is slightly sort of retrofitting the narrative.

19:50

Liam made the point before about Kim and Jay coming on. I

19:53

kind of understand that one in terms of maybe

19:55

the argument that it might have disrupted the defence

19:57

a little bit of just people knowing their jobs

19:59

but As I mentioned with the Sulu example,

20:01

I do think that it had value, it was maybe

20:04

just that at a moment of chaos they maybe didn't

20:06

know those spaces and those gaps between them

20:08

to make sure that they did it in time. But

20:11

I don't know what you guys think. I think it

20:13

was maybe retrofitting the narrative a little bit. I think

20:15

it's always a bit risky to change your defensive structure

20:17

at such a pivotal

20:19

point when you're then talking about,

20:22

especially because you're going to be doing more

20:24

defending. So when your line squeezes up, if you've

20:26

gone from the two and whoever's communicating to adding

20:28

the third player there who then takes the role,

20:30

it was obviously more notable because Kim was the

20:33

player who I think Touchell came out

20:35

and said after that, I don't remember if you

20:37

blamed him directly or said he's accepted responsibility because

20:39

he jumped out on the three-wheel for the first

20:41

one and then conceded the penalty for the equaliser.

20:43

So whether that had a role in his squad

20:45

selection, I don't know. And as

20:48

much as it is also a case

20:50

of outcome bias, which isn't inherently

20:52

linked to the decisions because Noire ends

20:54

up dropping the ball that no one

20:56

ever expects Maman Noire to drop or

20:58

to not catch. And in

21:00

the same way that I think he,

21:03

Touchell, deserves as much criticism as Tursich

21:05

did for the amount of shots that Dortmund then gave

21:08

up, that if you're then going to sit off and

21:10

allow them so much of the ball and how

21:13

you then defend those chances, you're saying, look, we're

21:15

going to say we're going to try and reduce

21:17

the quality of your chances rather than stopping them

21:19

all entirely. So they kind of gave up on

21:22

shot suppression and it's really always amazing to me that

21:25

– and I probably do the same if I was in that situation –

21:27

but so many head coaches and managers all seem

21:29

to follow that very similar end-of-game

21:31

plan if they're winning or losing, sort of regardless of

21:33

what they're – if you want to call it a

21:36

philosophy or a style of play, you could be the

21:38

most expansive manager going and they still seem to be

21:40

ready to say, let's drop in, just defend the box

21:42

and see it out first, five, ten minutes. It

21:45

must be quite hard to think creatively

21:48

in those circumstances, in those situations,

21:50

with so many moving parts and

21:52

not least the psychological pressures that

21:55

you're under. Michael, any

21:57

Thomas Touchell, Bayern 23-20? 24

22:00

takeaways as their season will end without a

22:02

major trophy for the first time since 2011-12?

22:07

They're clearly not as good as they usually

22:09

are. Their system really has changed with the

22:11

arrival of Kane when they didn't have anyone

22:13

playing that role last year. But actually

22:15

if they get two points from the last

22:18

two Bundesliga games they will finish

22:20

on the same number of points as they had last

22:22

year and if they only won the league on the

22:24

final day last season they'll probably exceed that number. And

22:26

really I just think Leverkusen a brilliant team. I think Leverkusen might be the best

22:30

team in Europe this year. So it's a shame they're not in the

22:32

Champions League. But there's

22:34

no shame in my opinion in losing

22:36

the league to Leverkusen even though for

22:38

Bayern it's completely unprecedented over the last

22:40

decade and there's no shame in

22:42

losing a semi-final in the 89th

22:44

and 90th minutes to Real Madrid. I think those things

22:47

can happen. So I quite like Tuchel. I think he'll

22:49

get another good job and

22:51

I think he's done an alright job at

22:53

Bayern. I think especially in

22:55

the latter stages of the Champions League Bayern

22:57

have looked more comfortable in

22:59

Europe than they have domestically. There's more space

23:01

to play when teams go more toe-to-toe with

23:04

them and they can expose their counter-attacking strengths

23:06

as well as their possession strengths at times.

23:08

I think in the league when they've played

23:10

against deep blocks sometimes or often they've been

23:13

sucker-punched or come unstuck a little bit which

23:16

they haven't had as much in the

23:18

Champions League. But yeah to Michael's point

23:20

they've still been very good in the

23:22

Bundesliga. They've got the best expected goal

23:24

difference per 90 in the Bundesliga so

23:26

looking at their chances created and conceded.

23:29

The numbers suggest they've put up 1.7 goals

23:31

worth more chances than the opposition in an

23:33

average game and Leverkusen a 1.2 per game

23:36

by way of comparison. And

23:38

yes their stylistic play Leverkusen has

23:40

been very very strong. I

23:42

think again we're maybe retrofitting the narrative. Leverkusen have

23:45

had some late wins as well. They haven't always

23:47

been quite as dominant as maybe the

23:50

scoreline would suggest. So I don't

23:52

think there's kind of major major fixes to Bayern

23:54

even though they haven't won

23:56

the trophies or any trophies this season. That's

23:58

their currency but you know. And changes will

24:00

obviously occur in the summer, but I don't think

24:02

it's a major overhaul to

24:28

the future. But

24:31

it's not best team in Europe

24:33

by Levakusen playing Real Madrid in

24:35

the final. And it's not big bad Bayern either.

24:38

It's the side currently fifth in the

24:40

Bundesliga, Borussia Dortmund, they beat PSG in

24:43

the semi-final, two nil on aggregate, one

24:45

nil in each leg. Feels

24:48

like a bit of a rarity, almost a bit

24:50

of a throwback. I feel like mid-2000s

24:53

we might have seen a

24:55

Chelsea Liverpool, Mourinho, Benitez, two nil

24:57

on aggregate, but these days feels

24:59

rare. And I'm sad that I

25:01

didn't ask Duncan Alexander to run the numbers on that.

25:04

So we'll never know as we record

25:06

whether it is indeed rare or not.

25:08

Two nil on aggregate and

25:11

PSG hitting the woodwork six times

25:13

over two legs feels like a

25:15

decent place to start, Liam. How

25:17

unfortunate were PSG on that front?

25:20

Well, again, it comes back to a similar point that

25:22

we just referenced, right, in terms of how much of

25:24

it is managerial selection and how much of it is

25:26

outcome bias. A few of those

25:28

from memory, I can't remember all six across

25:30

the two ties, were good

25:32

shots from distance. I think Virginia had a

25:34

couple ways, hit them quite well. So it's

25:37

not always like it's five yards out and you

25:39

should score. And it's always just

25:41

quite a weird proxy as well because they had quite

25:43

a few block shots and quite a few shots off

25:45

target as well, some really bad misses in there where

25:47

you go, I'm always very mindful to praise the team

25:49

for hitting the woodwork. It's quite a weird. You've

25:52

failed as much as you, or you've succeeded

25:54

as much as you can without completely succeeding, if

25:56

that makes sense. So it's kind of a weird,

25:59

a weird proxy. But I was

26:01

slightly baffled by and the listen rek's consistently

26:03

tweet this entire Champions League campaign always with

26:05

this sort of forward line There's been a

26:07

mix of a sensor playing a false nine

26:10

He's had and Bape and run on column

26:12

or any playing with sort of number nines

26:14

He's played Dembele and Baccala as as wingers

26:16

and and Bape's the nine He's played Baccala

26:19

and Bape split strikers with Dembele in the

26:21

ten and sure there's merit for

26:23

adjusting this of all those games So they played

26:25

very different opposition. They played something like to press

26:27

higher something like to counter-attack more It

26:30

didn't seem right that he brought in Ramos because he's not played

26:32

a huge amount of the season He's been as much

26:35

a starter in league eyes He has sort of coming

26:37

off the bench and being really a late game sort

26:39

of salvager of there's a great head of recent They

26:41

get to lay out of where you know They were

26:43

they were behind and just like crossing later on and

26:45

it obviously tends to fly fly in the face a

26:48

lot of what? Listen, we're here wants him to do

26:50

of being a you know, a real build-up team at

26:52

times They're maybe a bit too vertical a bit

26:55

too rushed I thought some of their right side

26:57

crossing Dembele especially was really poor just quite erratic

26:59

And it looks quite panicked I just thought from early on

27:02

of like almost been like we need to score

27:04

really early here to settle things and and get

27:06

back into The game and I thought when Dortmund

27:08

did score I go just stick my keenness

27:10

up front because you've not really got enough

27:12

box presences there to actually be a threat

27:15

Where's hot saloon when you need him? Well, exactly I

27:17

was gonna ask is that why Ramos started the game

27:19

to be that box presence that then yeah They probably

27:21

anticipate that Dortmund were gonna sit in a little bit

27:24

and they needed someone to occupy the center backs Was

27:26

that the main reason rather than having someone in the

27:28

form of a plane to the center? Where you probably

27:30

would have he would have been a bit wasted in

27:32

his skill set I guess so but that's that's Ramos's

27:34

second champion to the start all season and in the

27:36

second leg of a semi-final Like he's not really been

27:39

used at all And I also

27:41

thought it was then weird to have sort of

27:43

in Bape there or for Leicester sort of coming

27:45

inside a bit Not starting by Cola who's probably

27:47

got the best final ball one of the best

27:49

final balls of any players there Especially it's sort

27:51

of in terms of playing cutbacks. It's a real

27:53

super strength So it just felt like to use

27:55

a carry is in the the alchemy wasn't quite

27:57

right in the in the forward line in the

27:59

dynamic So again, they

28:01

did then create a lot but

28:04

and I think this is a point Michael made as well Didn't

28:06

really feel like for what the numbers have come

28:09

out as there were that many memorable chances especially

28:11

not sort of clear sights at goal or ones

28:13

that dropped to Embapa would

28:15

embed other players you'd want them to in those good positions

28:17

to say Yeah, there's four or five

28:19

where I'll have a Newcastle group stage game where

28:21

you go my god How do you keep

28:23

missing these it felt more like just an accumulation of

28:25

decent chances Especially when Dortmund were one that up and

28:27

really sat in Can I just say

28:29

I feel like I've used the word alchemy like once maybe

28:31

twice and it's now referred to as a carry Forever

28:34

on this podcast. I'm just gonna have to not do that numbers

28:37

to go alongside what Liam said is that PSG

28:40

have 44 shots against Dortmund over

28:42

the two legs in a semi-final Which

28:44

is the most shots a team has

28:47

had without scoring in a two-legged Champions

28:49

League tie on record Which is since

28:51

2003 for per optus numbers, but again

28:54

to Liam's point I think it's more that the

28:56

clarity of those shots were not big and looked

28:58

at the the XG of the woodwork efforts and

29:01

Cumulatively those six shots across the two

29:03

legs were only worthy of 0.6 XG.

29:06

So it wasn't like they were huge Average

29:09

shot quality and and four of actually five

29:12

of the six with They're

29:14

all there about near the D of

29:17

the penalty area if you

29:19

can try and visualize that So it wasn't as though

29:21

they were kind of yeah clear-cut efforts done that there

29:23

Emory one was probably the closest one and that was

29:25

a tight angle But you could maybe get benefit of

29:28

it out there, but it across the whole two legs

29:30

I think that's the point that it wasn't huge

29:33

shot quality. It was just

29:35

high quantity I already know what Michael

29:37

thought about this one because in his

29:40

guys as at zonal underscore marking

29:42

on Twitter He said I

29:45

thought this was a very entertaining game where both sides

29:47

played quite badly Yeah,

29:50

I wasn't impressed with dormant at all. I

29:52

didn't think that any spells of possession to

29:54

relieve the pressure I don't

29:56

think they offered that much on the counter at the

29:58

Amy had one burst down

30:01

the left, there was one or two

30:03

occasions where they could have played a good pass through

30:05

a runner going in behind, I think Sancho on

30:07

one occasion and Brent on the other occasion. But

30:09

overall I thought they were quite poor really. They

30:12

did defend the penalty box pretty well. Then

30:14

again PSG racks up 3.2 on

30:17

the old XG. So clearly they

30:19

did have their chances. At PSG they just had

30:21

no cohesion in the final third. I mean Lewis

30:23

and Rico sides do tend

30:25

to be like this. They moved the ball so

30:27

well around the midfield, obviously the side we associate

30:30

most with Lewis and Rico was when he

30:32

had Messi and Suarez and Neymar on the final third and

30:34

could probably do a bit of the Ancelotti of just

30:36

say right, go on, I'd do what you want. Without

30:38

that, I mean his Spain side, they

30:41

were so frustrated. I thought their most organised

30:43

side, particularly at the Euros, but they just didn't

30:45

have any cohesion in the final third. And it

30:47

was the same thing here. I don't

30:49

understand what Mbappe was doing

30:52

when he was playing on the left. They had the

30:54

ball so often down the right with

30:57

Hekimi and Dembele. And

30:59

Mbappe is never really attacking the far post. He's

31:01

a player who can play 9, there's no 9

31:03

on the left. But when you play on the

31:05

left, you've got to add the runs into the

31:08

same kind of position. So it was just Ramos

31:10

there. He had two kind of half chances, snatched

31:12

at them a bit. And then when

31:14

they moved Mbappe up front, I thought it was

31:17

the wrong way around. As you've said, that was

31:19

when you want to bring on someone like Ramos

31:21

for a penalty box present. So I

31:23

was quite disappointed with PSG. I actually thought they were

31:25

more set up for a

31:27

good run in this competition. And to be fair,

31:30

it has been a good run to the semi-finals.

31:32

Did in previous years because there's more tactical organisation.

31:34

I really like the midfield. I think Ruiz is

31:36

a brilliant player to the left. I like Vittina

31:38

a lot. But if they're going to

31:40

lose Mbappe in the summer, suddenly you look at their

31:42

attack. And it feels mad to

31:44

be saying this about PSG, but they probably need to

31:47

sign a good attacker. Are we out

31:49

on Colomirani? I

31:51

mean, Colomirani scored six goals in Ligand this

31:53

season. Klinenbakke scored 26. And after that, he's

31:56

gone to Alabramas on 11. And I think

31:58

that Dembele is a good player. is

32:00

we know him to be a hugely creative

32:02

player, just so fast causes chaos. But he's

32:04

only scored five goals in all competitions this

32:06

season. So it's so skewed towards

32:09

Mbappe, which we know to be true. But when you actually break

32:11

it down and look at the numbers from

32:13

the other forward players, it

32:15

is quite astounding. So I do agree with

32:17

Michael's point. Yeah, I think PSU in

32:19

Europe, this is going to be strange, particularly in the

32:21

knockouts, because a lot of

32:23

what Lewis and Rieke has been able to do in

32:26

the league or chosen to do is sort of start

32:28

to face Mbappe out. There's been games where he's taken

32:30

off at half time, we've not even started him. He

32:32

did it later on in Le Classique as well, which

32:34

is pretty much a significant one to do in such

32:36

a big game. And then of course, he's just given

32:38

him full 90s all the time in Europe, because he's

32:40

kind of accepted that this is a big enough deal

32:42

that you can't do that there. Obviously, they had

32:44

a league on, wrapped up for so long that they

32:46

could get away with that. It's a very young team

32:48

surrounding Mbappe, obviously, he's not particularly old himself,

32:50

but I think it's the youngest team that I

32:53

think in every round in terms of their

32:55

starting 11. So you guess

32:57

that there is still time, especially for new

32:59

signings that come in to integrate and develop.

33:01

They might benefit, I think, in a weird way from

33:04

the clean break of Mbappe in the sense that he's

33:06

never really fit Lewis and Rieke style. There's been times

33:08

in the season where he's paid well and Lewis and

33:11

Rieke has come out and just not been hugely positive

33:13

about him because he's just not the kind of player

33:15

that he wants, which might be as much a fault

33:17

of Mbappe as Lewis and Rieke, which is not really

33:19

fitting at all. And I looked

33:21

through and PSG had the fewest headed shots of

33:23

any team to reach the quarter-finals in the season's

33:25

Champions League. And obviously, that was a total when

33:27

they've gone to the semi-finals, they've had more games

33:29

and more time. And their two headed goals that

33:31

they did score were both by centre backs and

33:33

one of those was off of a set piece.

33:35

So it's clearly a part of their game that

33:37

I'd say broadly is missing. And I think to

33:39

be a good team in Europe, you need to

33:41

be able to do all phases

33:44

to a decent seven, eight out of

33:46

10 level. It's not just about being a 10 out of

33:48

10 build up team or possession team, because

33:50

you're going to come up against probably some point a team

33:52

that's sitting in and going, you need a headed goal from

33:54

somewhere. So quite a lot

33:56

of focus on what PSG didn't do in

33:59

terms of... Who did what

34:01

and well for Borussia Dortmund? They

34:04

scored a headed goal headed in by

34:06

lovely Matt Hummels It's a

34:09

titan of European football for so

34:11

long now and and reaches

34:13

another Champions League final

34:15

Michael you said that you felt the best part

34:18

of Dortmund's performance was defending their penalty box Which

34:20

was always going to be crucial on

34:22

this occasion. So are we looking at the center backs as

34:24

the key players? Yeah, I

34:26

thought hummels was excellent schlottobek was really good

34:28

alongside him as well I thought

34:31

it's probably the only part of the game they

34:33

did really well They defended the penalty box quite

34:35

well of the hummels aerial threat gets him the

34:37

goal at the opposite end of the pitch I

34:39

don't think they're a great side Dortmund. I mean, they've

34:41

done really well to reach the final It'd be a

34:43

great story if they win it. I think Dortmund a

34:46

really likable club, but they're not a great

34:48

side I think they did what they had to do to

34:50

get past PSG here But I didn't

34:52

see that much connection or combination play between

34:54

the attackers here They were just

34:56

good defensively and sometimes a knockout football that can

34:58

be enough just on the note of

35:00

Matt's home I'm not normally in the market for rattling

35:02

off just pure numbers from

35:04

an individual gain from a player

35:07

But hummels made ten clearances for

35:09

tackles and three interceptions and no

35:11

one loved more Than him across

35:13

both teams for those actions, which

35:16

is it is incredible I think that you know scored

35:18

the goal as well and again another staff

35:20

from optus So aged 35 and 143 days

35:23

Matt songs is the oldest German ever to

35:26

score a goal in the champions in a

35:28

championship knockout match So yeah considering his

35:30

longevity, you know in both boxes He

35:32

was incredible and I think that Schlotterbeck

35:35

across the course of the season I know this to be

35:37

true from other people that he does kind of have a bit

35:39

of a mistake in him But I think he was guided through

35:41

it really well from hummels and he was really Progressive

35:44

in his actions on the ball as well So

35:46

if those two have another good game

35:48

in the final then who knows

35:50

it could it could spring a surprise

35:53

A word for Kerbal as well the goalkeeper Part

35:56

of quite an experienced backline their

35:59

underlyings really, really

36:01

quite bad when you look at it.

36:03

They've had a combined across the entire

36:05

Champions League season, an XGA, so expected

36:07

goals conceded, of over 22, and

36:10

only let nine goals in. Kerbal's about

36:12

seven goals prevented in terms of his saves,

36:14

so you're looking at a 13 goal difference,

36:16

which is, I don't have the

36:18

points of comparison, but feels absolutely huge.

36:21

Like there's sort of an unsustainable overperformance, and

36:23

then there's that, which even feels like an

36:25

outlier. So even when you

36:27

factor in Kerbal being the best key opponent of the

36:30

season in terms of goals prevented, and a few really

36:32

good smart reaction saves, I think that can be a

36:34

hard game for a goalkeeper. You've got so many bodies

36:36

in the way, you're not really getting a clear side

36:38

of goal. You rely on very quick reactions to make

36:41

saves, sometimes in unorthodox ways, but that's

36:43

still about six goals in terms of opponents being

36:45

wasteful, which you can get away with

36:47

over this shorter period of time. And again, you

36:49

need to do it now for one more game,

36:52

but there's no real huge signs

36:54

there that that's like a team that's got

36:56

an awful lot going for them, predictably looking

36:58

at the future that they're still to probably

37:00

make some systematic changes in improvements. But as

37:02

we've said, they're probably real underdog, a

37:05

team that that's why they've also struggled in

37:07

the league because of the 36 games. You

37:09

just don't, yeah, that evens itself out of them.

37:17

That final takes place on the 1st

37:19

of June at Wembley. Real Madrid looking

37:21

to win number 15 of these, and

37:25

Dortmund number two, it would be for

37:27

Real Madrid should they win their sixth

37:30

Champions League title in 11 years. As

37:33

for Dortmund, Michael back at

37:35

Wembley, which is where their last Champions

37:38

League final took place. That was in

37:40

2013. They lost

37:42

to Bayern Munich, an

37:44

89th minute winner from I.N.

37:46

Robin, because I have no idea

37:48

what Waft Wubba Tewa means. Yeah, what a

37:50

final that was, by the way. I've wasted

37:52

that recently. And

37:54

I forgot, the tempo is

37:56

incredible. There's so many big moments, big

37:59

chances. It was really, really good.

38:01

So I know a lot of people were kind of ramping

38:03

up to say, oh, it's a bit of a shame when

38:06

you get two sides from the same country in the

38:08

Champions League final. And in general,

38:10

I agree. The ones between Italian and Spanish

38:12

clubs haven't been great, but that one was

38:14

fantastic. Yeah, we haven't got that,

38:16

but we've got Real Madrid against Dortmund at

38:18

Wembley. And I know this is an obvious thing

38:20

to say, but great final for Jude Bellingham, you

38:23

know, at Wembley against his former side.

38:26

After the season he's had, maybe he's after the

38:28

half season he's had, because I think he struggled

38:31

a little bit since Christmas, but he's still been

38:33

fantastic there. His impact has been unbelievable. So

38:35

yeah, I'm quite looking forward to, I

38:37

don't think Dortmund are a great team. I'll

38:39

be honest, I think they're probably the weakest team

38:42

we've seen in the final since Chelsea

38:44

in 2012. Obviously Chelsea

38:46

won it, so Dortmund have every chance of winning

38:48

this. Maybe Tottenham in 2019,

38:51

I still think they're probably a better side with the kind

38:53

of tail end of Pochettino. I still

38:55

think they're probably a better side than Dortmund. But

38:58

they've done well together. Understanding

39:00

that this is tournament football, Liam, and as we've

39:02

said many times, it takes different

39:04

ingredients to be good in tournament football.

39:07

One of the biggest ingredients can be

39:09

luck and fortune, but there are others

39:11

as well. Is there a special source

39:13

that we can make from this Dortmund

39:15

side, mixing a goalkeeper having

39:17

the shot-stopping performance of a lifetime in

39:19

this competition, centre-backs defending their

39:21

penalty box very well when they need

39:23

to, and a threat on

39:25

the counter attack as well, which even though they

39:27

didn't score on the break, they still caused PSG

39:29

a couple of hairy moments. Adeyemi's pace

39:32

in particular is very threatening. Full crook

39:34

has stood out over the last couple

39:36

of ties. Sancho's passing's been very smart

39:39

too. Yeah, it's a group of

39:41

individuals who, maybe without

39:43

a real coherent particularly in attack sort of structure,

39:45

are all really good. I think there's a high

39:48

floor of the team. They've never been, and this

39:50

is also important from the group stage perspective, they've

39:52

not had an awful game or any real periods

39:54

where they've been awful at all. They've never been

39:56

sort of taken out of a match. They were

39:59

really quite good consistency. in the group

40:01

stage. Barring probably matched day one where they tried a

40:03

5-3-2 away to PSG. Turnstitch

40:05

came out afters and was like, we

40:08

just weren't aggressive enough, we gave them too much

40:10

respect. We gave the ball away too quickly when

40:12

we did regain it. So quite clearly I've learnt

40:14

from mistakes there. It's probably quite an experienced side

40:16

as well in terms of their individual

40:18

experience in the Champions League and they felt like

40:20

a few fouls that PSG made later on in

40:22

the game where they knew how to then slow

40:24

the game down and break things up. So

40:27

you need all the elements and I think they

40:29

probably didn't get as much credit as they deserved in

40:31

the groups. But it's been as much

40:34

about them being good in the knockouts, I think, as it

40:36

has been opponents being wasteful. But there was a, I think

40:38

it was a good tweet from Hamels where it was like,

40:40

everyone wants to play us. So it's nice we've got

40:43

to the final, so more teams can play us. And

40:45

if teams are missing chances against them, then, you know,

40:47

tournament football is like turning up and performing in

40:50

those 90 minutes. And if your opponent's done, you're

40:52

going to go through if you're good enough. In

40:54

a motivational sense, they've got that very powerful. Everyone

40:56

thinks we're rubbish. We can prove them wrong. Whereas

40:58

Real Madrid have that incredible. We've won this so

41:00

many times and we always seem to do it

41:03

in very similar fashion where we always find a

41:05

goal when we need to, which is pretty powerful

41:07

too. Yeah, I don't know which narrative I prefer,

41:09

really. I quite like both, to be honest. I

41:11

think you're more of an underdog, Mark. I think,

41:13

yeah, I'd probably go along with that, to be

41:16

honest. But I think, you know, talking

41:18

about luck and things kind of on pitch as

41:20

well, I think it sounds obvious, but the

41:22

draw is so important to how successful the team

41:24

is each season. And I know that, you

41:26

know, Liam just mentioned it, the Dortmund did have a tough

41:28

group that they obviously navigated

41:31

out of really well. But they

41:33

did draw PSG Eindhoven, then Atletico

41:35

Madrid, and then PSG, who they'd obviously played

41:37

in the group stages, so they knew kind of how to play

41:39

against them. Maybe it was kind

41:41

of the same as Inter Milan last season. You

41:44

think about their, you know, teams that they were

41:46

drawn against in the knockout stages. They got Porto,

41:48

Benfica and AC Milan, who were not massive

41:50

giants of recent years at the time. So

41:53

I think, as is

41:55

obvious, the draw does have a massive saying

41:57

who reaches the final stages. And next season's

41:59

format is... going to probably mean it's slightly

42:01

skewed towards the better team, so this might be

42:03

the final time in a while that that

42:05

might happen, who knows. Just remembered that a

42:07

few months ago Michael said he thought this year

42:11

was ripe for a team making the final, maybe winning

42:13

the thing that no one saw coming. Yeah, but I

42:15

thought it was PSE and part of the reason I

42:17

thought it was PSE because they were playing Dortmund in

42:19

the second half. There you go. I'm not sure I

42:22

can claim that one. Mission failed successfully. I

42:25

mean, based on what we've seen from both Dortmund

42:27

and from Real Madrid in the Champions League this

42:29

year, do you guys have a clear image in

42:31

your mind as to how this game will look

42:33

tactically? I mean, I think

42:35

Real Madrid will dominate. I can see kind of turning cross.

42:39

Being the pass master again, I think they've

42:41

got the fluidity and the combinations in the

42:43

final third that should unlock

42:45

Dortmund's defence. I think Dortmund probably a

42:47

bit more reactive, probably play on the

42:49

break. They did have some good runs,

42:51

I thought, in this game. They just weren't found with passes

42:53

in behind the way they were for the

42:56

goal in the first leg. I think they'll

42:58

have a threat on the break, Dortmund.

43:01

I can't think of an element at the game that's really better out than

43:03

Real Madrid. They defended the box well, but I thought

43:05

Real defended the box well really well in

43:08

that game against City. So I'd

43:11

have really strong favourites, to be honest. I think

43:14

Dortmund defended wide areas really well. I know that

43:16

Ahmed Waleed did a really interesting piece on that

43:18

and if they do the same against Real Madrid,

43:20

then that will nullify especially the threat from Real

43:22

Madrid's left hand side, which we've already spoken about.

43:25

I think that was probably, to

43:27

Liam's point right at the start, in terms of

43:29

why Kimmick was still selected at right back, it

43:31

didn't help that Sané wasn't really helping a ton.

43:34

He helped at times, but then they got a

43:36

bit confused and Vinesis Union was able to go

43:38

either way, either towards the

43:41

touchline or inside. Sancho

43:43

and Adeyemi, across both legs

43:45

against PSG, did really well in doubling

43:47

up and defending really well. So

43:49

it's not really the most positive to say

43:51

that they might be able to nullify the

43:54

threat. It's not necessarily thinking optimistically, but I

43:56

do think that if they're going to try and

43:58

nullify the threat, then they've got the plan. Isn't that the

44:00

touch constructed to do that? A wonderful

44:02

sake of our taking up is typical of

44:04

aggressive positions right back knowing that of your

44:06

father ego the more you what's combat to

44:08

defend the a me whether they might switch

44:10

francs or or change him during the game

44:12

Essential as one of the space exploit that

44:14

I think what's interesting is this know so

44:16

of. Compared. To Los is my

44:18

we had a team he won't release or defensively

44:21

in in in take it. Can.

44:23

Mix of sovereignty While but we're more you really

44:25

complements and we can set. We can defend deep,

44:27

we can hit the wide areas. such a system.

44:30

Plath. Apply the matched up quite well and

44:32

very much of a stars make fight. So

44:35

thing was this shows. A

44:37

little bit murkier I think just in time

44:39

so the attack to a pitcher I'm hoping

44:41

it will be better than the posse find

44:43

the Soviet six goes combine in the past

44:46

five the past four will be mom one

44:48

know which in an era where always got

44:50

up and up and league games at an

44:52

it we've seen finals consecutively be one one

44:54

know man says this I think since posture

44:57

the seventies or the eighties so I guess

44:59

this inches happen sometimes in you think the

45:01

to recent finals where he has been about

45:03

players getting released him behind that the habits

45:06

go to get city. That and dishes

45:08

have any. It's Liverpool as well. so

45:10

does possibly us a row that for

45:12

for history turned itself or don't despair.

45:14

Better yet not international. Yes,

45:17

about time We had a bit of a

45:19

goldfish in the final because even the World

45:21

Cup finals have been entertaining. I mean, six

45:23

code in each of the last two of

45:25

them, so that was always to this me,

45:27

Quite a defensive game set in the nineties.

45:29

two thousand and if even the World Cup

45:31

final can produce. Thrillers.

45:33

Than I think is about time the champion the final

45:35

stepped up. Monkey think. The.

45:38

Liam uses the phrase styles make fights more

45:40

than you use the word Alchemy. Well panic

45:42

My were taken up from about was another

45:44

Harrys in the again after his once and

45:46

has been taken on it. Did I take

45:48

it as a compliment? He says it moments.

45:50

I think it in terms of. pod.

45:52

stats like that you probably best

45:54

doing it per ninety words spoken

45:57

on us to describe it as

45:59

an issue make sure that it good

46:01

because Liam does probably I just still say

46:03

more words in people than and

46:05

from me so good

46:08

stuff okay so I want to

46:10

ask Michael if this strong

46:12

favorite realm Madrid who per

46:15

the early betting odds who

46:17

will lift the trophy implies

46:19

a probability in the

46:21

bookmakers eyes of seventy six point nine

46:24

percent for realm

46:26

Madrid to win is there a

46:28

certain type of opposition that

46:31

can spook an ciolotti

46:33

and realm Madrid or is

46:35

their strength that they are

46:37

unspookable whatever love two

46:39

games this season both against let's go Madrid

46:41

I don't know whether that was really because

46:44

of the style of semione side

46:46

or because of the fact they were Darby's and

46:48

Darby's tend to be a bit different so

46:51

yeah I guess you can say the Dortmund

46:53

need to be quite athletic they kind of

46:55

are broadly set up to

46:57

play that way I think when you look at how

46:59

they played against PSG yesterday yeah I'm

47:01

sorry I'm not making much of a case for Dormant here but

47:06

yeah just fueling the underdog motivational

47:09

trope for them which can

47:11

be very powerful and and

47:14

Edin Terzic's side are up against

47:16

it they are the underdogs but

47:19

really excited about this one last

47:21

thing goalkeepers are

47:23

important in individual

47:25

matches and have been in Champions

47:27

League finals particularly one

47:29

goalkeeper called Tebow Courtois if

47:33

Courtois is fit to play

47:35

back from injury do you

47:37

think an ciolotti would play him

47:40

over looning well

47:42

did you see it the full-time whistle yesterday

47:44

the camera slightly bizarrely cut to Courtois

47:46

running onto the pitch it wasn't moving that

47:48

freely I don't think he ever had a

47:50

big guy as well I think it was

47:52

done on Tuesday and he was fully fit

47:56

he didn't look close to fitness for me I

47:58

mean that's maybe the area where assuming of course,

48:00

why he doesn't come back, or maybe even if he does, maybe

48:03

that's the area Dortmund do have the advantage. I mean,

48:05

Liam said the call will start, haven't

48:07

been that impressed by Loon in this season, he's been

48:09

all right. But yeah, that's maybe

48:11

if you're doing a combined 11,

48:13

which obviously we should never do. Maybe

48:16

the goalkeeper is the one player who gets in.

48:19

Courtois played against Cadiz at the weekend and made

48:21

a really good one on one save. And it

48:23

kind of reminded everyone there was kind of a

48:26

ripple of applause in like the minutes after that

48:28

still sort of show to people he is,

48:31

maybe he's back. I don't know. I mean, I don't think

48:33

it is the best idea to bring him in. Somewhat

48:35

cold for a final, but he has

48:37

proven in a Champions League final that he can

48:39

more than play his part. Interesting.

48:43

Dortmund and Real Madrid going head to head on

48:45

the 1st of June at Wembley.

48:47

And I'm very, very excited

48:49

about it after this podcast. Thank you

48:51

to Michael, to Mark and Liam. As

48:53

for us, to mark your card, we

48:56

have two shows left

48:58

this season. And

49:00

we've got some pretty fun ideas

49:02

to round us off for the

49:04

2324 season on the Athletic Football

49:06

Tactics podcast. We're really grateful to

49:08

all of you who tune in every

49:11

week. Welcome to anyone that's tuned

49:13

in for the first time this week.

49:15

Stick with us, subscribe to the

49:17

podcast feed and to the Athletic. Go

49:19

to the athletic.com/tactics for a discount

49:21

on an annual subscription today. Thank

49:24

you very much for listening and go well.