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And now from the University of Chicago

0:38

Institute of Politics and CNN

0:40

Audio, the ax files with

0:42

your host, David Axorod.

0:48

You may have become familiar with Doug Jones

0:51

in two thousand and seventeen when

0:53

the Democrats stunned the nation by winning

0:55

a special election for Jeff Sessions

0:57

seat in the US Senate from the Ruby

0:59

Red State of Alabama. But Jones

1:02

made his mark long before that as the

1:04

US attorney who, at long last,

1:06

brought two ex Klansman to Justice

1:09

for the nineteen sixty three Birmingham

1:11

church bombing that killed four young black

1:13

girls. That story and his whole

1:15

life's journey from white steel worker's

1:17

son in the segregated south to the man

1:20

who avenged those savage murders is

1:22

something to behold. I sat down last

1:24

week with senator Jones at the Institute of

1:26

Politics where he's a fall principal fellow.

1:29

Here's our conversation.

1:37

Doug Jones? Great to be with you.

1:39

Great to have you as a fellow

1:42

at the University of Chicago's Institute

1:44

of Politics. Well, thank you. Look, David,

1:46

this is great. I appreciate the opportunity to

1:49

be here. It's an extraordinary opportunity

1:51

for me and also to do this podcast. So thanks

1:53

very much. you have such led such

1:56

an interesting life and

1:58

probably not the one that you imagined

1:59

when you were kid growing

2:02

up just outside of

2:04

Birmingham, Alabama. Tell me about your

2:07

your your family, your working class

2:09

family. Yeah. All

2:11

of my family. I lived in Fairfield, which

2:13

was a huge US steel town. The

2:16

US steel Fairfield works. just about

2:18

everybody in my family, just about all of

2:20

our neighbors had some connection to US Steel.

2:22

So it was a really pretty blue collar town.

2:25

At the time, although dad moved into some management

2:28

at the time, you know, my grandparents my

2:30

grandfather still work there. My

2:33

other my paternal grandfather was

2:35

a a coal miner, an organizer for the

2:37

coal miners. Your dad

2:39

was a union rep, Brett? He he was a he was

2:42

a union route for a time. And

2:44

then at some point back in probably

2:46

the late sixties when I was in my teens,

2:49

they saw in him some electrical things

2:52

that got him into some management. Uh-huh.

2:54

But, you know, it was a it was a Uniontown,

2:56

I mean, at the time. And now it's very

2:59

few people that work out at US Steel there.

3:01

But, you know, family was just it

3:03

may we lived in a little suburb, one

3:05

of those kinda ASEAN Harrier type

3:07

suburbs. And you're old enough to know what

3:09

I'm talking about. I I'm not sure the others

3:11

will. But yeah. And we were the first to

3:13

move in there. It was just an idiotic setting.

3:15

But, you know, where I grew up in in

3:17

a Jim Crow South that was very

3:19

protected. I mean, we were totally

3:21

protected from

3:23

what was going on in most of the civil rights

3:25

movement until I got to integrated schools.

3:27

Yeah. I wanna talk to you about that element

3:30

of it in a second. I

3:32

just wanna stick with the the

3:34

sort of Steeltown -- Yeah. --

3:36

point all Democrats, your family

3:38

were all Sure. Mhmm. That that

3:40

that was the south was That that that's

3:42

that's what it was. Although when you look

3:44

back, David. It's really hard to say,

3:47

you know, there were so many were democrats

3:50

in kind of a name only because

3:52

you had such a urgent. The Republican

3:54

Party really didn't exist in the state at the

3:56

time, not very much. And so you had

3:58

everybody who was, you know, Democrats

4:00

were on the one hand promoting civil rights

4:02

and and and standing up for civil

4:04

rights and on the other hand standing in a schoolhouse

4:06

store. So it's hard to say it was the kind

4:08

of party that we think about in terms

4:10

of political parties It's just that

4:12

what everybody grew up with from Franklin

4:14

d Roosevelt to own through Truman and

4:17

and even Kennedy it

4:19

was during the civil rights era that that started

4:21

to change. I saw somewhere

4:23

that you describing yourself

4:25

as coming from a family of George Wallace Democrats.

4:29

In the same place,

4:31

I think I saw that your your

4:33

grandfather had a figurine

4:35

of -- Yeah. -- a little conner. Yeah.

4:38

Yeah. Tell me about that. You know, I was

4:40

young, and so I really didn't have a

4:42

clue. III knew George

4:44

Wall. and I knew how fiery he was

4:46

and it was a state's rights kinda

4:48

thing as far as I could tell. You

4:50

know, my parents, my grandparents never

4:53

ended I never saw hate

4:55

in my household at all. But

4:57

they lived and way grew up in a

4:59

segregated world, and that's what

5:01

they like, that's what they thought

5:03

was appropriate, and they tended

5:05

to follow that. And, you

5:07

know, the thing with my grandad, he never

5:10

ever really said or did anything

5:12

to me that was offensive on

5:15

race issues. And I just happen to remember. It's

5:17

just one of those little quirks that you remember

5:19

from your childhood scene a little

5:21

bobble head. Yeah. It was it was really it

5:23

was before bobbleheads, but it was just

5:26

a little thing that was that he had in the

5:28

back of the car. and I asked him one time, and he

5:30

said, oh, it's just a politician. And

5:32

that's all I but it struck

5:34

me years. Which it was just

5:36

for those who who don't know, we remind

5:38

Yeah. Bull Connor. Bull Connor was

5:40

that, you know, arch racist

5:43

police commissioner in Birmingham, Alabama

5:45

in the early sixties that sick fire

5:47

hoses and dogs on peaceful demonstrators

5:50

trying to advance civil rights.

5:52

Talk to me about George Wallace. I

5:54

know you were young. but you

5:56

grew up around him as a

5:58

politician. Yeah. And I

5:59

remember him obviously from

6:02

that period as well and when he

6:04

ran for president several

6:07

times. Do you see a

6:09

connection between

6:10

Wallace and

6:12

Trump. Is there a Oh, sure. Oh,

6:14

there's no question about it. I mean, a

6:17

ugly popular streak is the best way

6:19

for me to describe it. It wasn't just

6:21

all race. It was all

6:24

grievance. and,

6:26

you know, victory all coming, but mainly

6:28

grievance. It is some, but you were always

6:31

George Wallace was always running

6:33

against someone. always

6:35

criticizing whether it was the media, whether

6:37

it was in his words, those pointy

6:39

headed Liberals. Yeah. You know, he was it

6:41

was always nothing, but

6:43

grievance and resentment that he tapped

6:45

into with a very rural

6:47

Alabama of steel of relatively

6:50

poor Alabama. And

6:52

I see Trump doing that consistently. I

6:54

mean, I I think he rose to

6:56

the presidency on the an

6:58

enlarged measure on the on resentment and

7:00

grievance. Yeah. And class.

7:02

And class. And we're it's this yeah.

7:04

All those to go together to me. They're just they're

7:07

part of the same same bucket

7:09

that you run on like that when when you're

7:11

playing to that grievance and

7:13

hate and that sort of thing. all has to

7:15

do with class. You know, George Wallace

7:17

was able to tap into so

7:19

many Alabama's

7:21

insecurities. you know,

7:23

always considered to be second class citizens,

7:25

always, you know, poor, always trying

7:27

to do different things. The only thing we really

7:29

had going for us at the time was our

7:31

steel mills and our football, college football.

7:33

And we've had that going on for a long time.

7:35

And Wallace was able to capture

7:37

those resentments and play on those

7:39

resentments and it gave people an

7:41

idea that he is speaking to us, and

7:43

that's exactly what Trump's done, exactly

7:46

what he'd run for the moment he came down that

7:48

escalator. let let me ask you a question. And I

7:50

saw you did you were in Bill

7:52

Mars show -- Mhmm. -- recently, and

7:54

you talked about your concerns

7:56

about the Democratic Party losing

7:59

touch.

7:59

I I share the concern that you have,

8:02

you know, that the Democratic Party

8:04

there is a kind of sense that it

8:06

is now sort of a cosmopolitan professional

8:10

-- Delete. --

8:11

elite party. Yeah. I think that has helped

8:13

facilitate the success

8:16

of Trump and -- Yes. -- and

8:18

others. Along just the lines

8:20

you recited, there is a sense

8:22

that you know, that someone once there

8:25

was this old expression about

8:27

Liberals or or people who

8:29

love humanity but hate people. And

8:32

sometimes it comes across that way.

8:34

Yeah. For sure. III think

8:36

that that really captures a lot of

8:39

problems that we have seen where where people

8:41

in Alabama have felt that

8:43

the party was looking down on them

8:45

for a while, then

8:47

and also taking care of others. I mean,

8:49

make no mistake, you know,

8:51

that the the democrats have been

8:53

for civil rights and equal rights, and

8:55

they feel threatened by that to some

8:57

extent, and Trump was able to

8:59

exploit that. And I don't think Democrats have

9:02

really been able to

9:04

capture that message bring those folks. All those

9:06

folks used to vote Democratic because

9:08

the Democrats provided them

9:10

jobs, they just provided them security,

9:12

They provided all that they needed.

9:15

Democrats built that middle class,

9:17

and they did in Alabama. The Democrats

9:19

put electricity in homes. The Democrat

9:21

put water out there, brought

9:23

rural hospitals to to rural Alabama.

9:25

But they've lost that. And one of the things

9:27

I keep hearing from Democratic

9:29

friends a lot around the

9:31

country. You know, why do

9:33

people vote against their interest

9:35

in Alabama? And I have to

9:37

look at them and say, well, who are you to say

9:39

what's in their interest? Because Their

9:41

financial interest is one thing, but they may make

9:43

sacrifices based on their community

9:46

and their religion. That's not

9:48

in their financial well-being. And we do

9:50

that. quite frankly, as human beings,

9:52

we do that all the time. So don't

9:54

look down on them. Let's just try to talk.

9:56

Let's try to go where they are. figure this

9:58

out, talk to them, and explain

10:00

that Democrats are not the kind

10:02

of political party that is

10:04

going to rip away their community and

10:06

we we in fact wanna build on that

10:08

community. And I I think there's just an element

10:10

of conveying respect.

10:12

Yes. no question about it. I think

10:14

that's a a very big

10:16

component of this, and

10:18

that Democrats in the past have

10:20

often not done that enough.

10:22

And the state parties have been neglected by

10:24

the national parties to some extent. And

10:27

and it's it's just it's been really hard

10:29

to to build and it was hard

10:31

for me to go into those areas because

10:33

the first thing that folks wanna know is, are

10:35

you a Republican or democrat and you immediately

10:37

get defined? And if they had just been

10:39

able to talk and listen a little bit, you

10:41

really, I think, can find that common

10:43

ground. Just getting back to your story. When you

10:45

were nine, four

10:47

black girls who were only

10:49

a few years older than

10:52

you were killed in a

10:54

church bombing in

10:56

Birmingham, just miles from -- Right. --

10:58

where you live. Were you

11:00

aware of that? No. I really

11:02

aware of him. I really I may

11:04

have been at the time, but I don't have

11:06

that recollection now because David, it

11:08

was Miles in in a

11:10

sense of of distance, but it

11:12

it was light years in terms

11:14

of my world versus

11:16

their world. And so

11:18

you know, again, you're not talking about an

11:20

age of instant instant news

11:23

on your phones and televisions. We

11:25

had three TV stations

11:27

that we got. And so it was very

11:29

limited and it was very sheltered. Yeah.

11:31

From me, my my parents were sheltering me.

11:33

They didn't want me and my sister to

11:35

have to deal with that. The world was changing.

11:37

And so I don't have a

11:39

recollection of the bombing itself.

11:41

I do have some recollection. so interesting

11:43

because it ended up in get into

11:45

this later, but it shaped your

11:47

life -- Oh, for sure. -- for sure.

11:49

That event is is part of a

11:51

history of our country. I mean, it

11:53

was one of the seminal events in the

11:55

history of the civil rights movement. There's

11:57

all this debate in discussion now.

11:59

about how we should teach

12:02

about these things and whether we should teach

12:04

about these things and should

12:06

they be part considered

12:08

part of a continuum of

12:10

history, you've lived to sort of ground

12:12

zero all your life. For all

12:14

of that, his history. How do

12:16

you react when you hear that? When you

12:18

hear people saying, well, don't run down

12:20

America. Don't tell that history.

12:23

Let's

12:23

Yeah. I I'm really stunned the way

12:25

that they think that telling that history is running

12:27

down America because we have progressed so

12:29

much. We have accomplished so much in

12:31

this world. as Americans, as the

12:33

United States. But we are with we don't

12:35

we have a lot of flaws in our history.

12:38

Every human being, every

12:40

individual has their own flaws in their history. that

12:42

they don't really like to talk about, but

12:44

sometimes they do and they learn from it.

12:46

And I'm I'm stunned. Even when I

12:48

prosecuted the cases years later, Even

12:51

the African American community didn't know all of

12:53

the history and all of the struggles that that

12:55

folks went You're giving away the joke,

12:57

which but Yeah.

12:59

Years later, you would end up prosecuting

13:01

two of the bombers, a white supremacist,

13:04

bombers, a klansman who bombed that

13:06

church. And we we will talk

13:08

about that But, yeah, it's it worries

13:10

me. It worries me. I think one of the

13:12

strengths of a of a strong

13:14

country and a strong democracy

13:17

is the ability look clear eyed

13:19

at your history, learn from

13:21

it, correct

13:22

the

13:22

errors of the past, and

13:25

understand what the

13:27

ramifications of that history are.

13:29

Yeah. And there's a real backlash to

13:31

that, and it's become a political, as

13:33

you know,

13:34

it's become politically potent.

13:36

It has become very politically potent,

13:38

and they're putting some really weird

13:41

names on it like wokeness and

13:43

woke and missed that and the other.

13:45

But, you know, you're doomed to repeat

13:47

those mistakes. If you don't

13:49

earn from them if you don't talk about them and you don't

13:51

teach those mistakes and and how you can

13:53

go better. I've given

13:56

talks about that civil rights

13:58

era and that bombing all the time. And I and

14:00

it's interesting where I hear all

14:02

the Wok comments now. Because

14:05

for years, I would tell folks

14:07

that that bombing woke

14:09

the conscious of America. It woke the

14:11

conscious of a president and a congress because

14:13

of civil rights Act was passed less than

14:15

a year later. This Bonnie

14:17

Ritz Act was passed less than two years

14:19

later. So there are

14:21

things that happen in our history

14:24

that I think galvanized people

14:26

to say, we're doing this wrong.

14:28

And the Jim Crow South was

14:31

wrong. It was it was as close to

14:33

apartheid as you could get.

14:35

And it resulted in the deaths

14:37

of people. It resulted in people

14:39

being kept at at

14:41

lower income levels and not given

14:43

opportunities. And so I think

14:45

that trying to teach that history

14:47

is incredibly important. the

14:49

same time that was going on, David, in the

14:51

south. And really across the country, there

14:53

was this myth about the lost cause

14:55

of the confederacy. as if that was

14:57

a noble cause because I mean,

15:00

in fact, the confederacy

15:02

took up arms against the United States

15:04

of America. we never so celebrate

15:07

people who took up arms against the

15:09

United States of America. In

15:11

defense of the institution of in defense

15:13

of the institutional slave. America's

15:15

original sin. And that

15:18

whole narrative has

15:20

somehow I think

15:22

contributing to what we're seeing

15:24

now in this backlash about history. I

15:26

think it's it's been there below

15:29

the the the surface. And

15:31

again, tapping into the the

15:33

resentment, tapping into

15:35

this this underlying fear that

15:37

people have about others replacing

15:39

them or whatever you wanna say.

15:42

It to me, history

15:44

is should be based on facts.

15:46

and you can argue and you can interpret

15:49

those how that

15:51

stood and what what place it stood in

15:53

history. But we

15:55

we cannot just gloss over

15:57

our flaws. We've gotta learn

15:59

from them. Well, we

16:00

know that

16:01

there are examples in history of

16:04

countries that don't do

16:06

that. And countries, you know,

16:08

the old Soviet Union is a great

16:10

example of countries that try

16:12

and obliterate history

16:14

you know, the burning of books in in

16:17

Nazi Germany and so on.

16:19

We know what that we know what

16:21

that leads to. You went

16:23

to college at the University

16:25

of Alabama. You went to law school.

16:28

When did you start becoming

16:30

attracted to politics and what attracted

16:32

you to it. You know, that's hard to

16:34

say. I think that, you know, in high

16:36

school, I got kind of involved a

16:38

little bit

16:40

was always fascinated. I mean, you

16:42

know, when I'm grown up, some of my

16:44

heroes were Robert Kennedy and John Kennedy

16:46

and you Well, that's that's really interesting

16:48

because, you know, I mean,

16:50

my recollection was Bobby

16:52

Kennedy sending his

16:54

aides down to confront

16:56

George Wallace in the school in the

16:58

in the school -- Yeah. -- house door. Saint

17:00

Nicholas Katzenback. Yes. The later

17:02

attorney general. Yeah. Down there. Yeah. And

17:04

so that those were my head. And

17:06

I said, oh, why but why why why would

17:09

they do that? I think because you know, I

17:11

think instinctively for

17:13

me, I could see potentials

17:15

for Alabama beyond the

17:17

George Wallace's of the world. But I I

17:19

literally believe that I could see being

17:23

held back by the George Wallace's of the world and

17:25

people around the country

17:27

looking down on Alabama because of who

17:29

was leading Alabama over

17:31

and over and again, by the way, he got elected like

17:33

four -- Yep. -- times, maybe five. And

17:35

I could see beyond that, I could see a progression

17:37

for people of all all races,

17:40

religions, that I thought would be

17:42

very good for the state of Alabama.

17:44

And there was about that time in

17:46

in high school and college you had

17:48

this whole what they then called new south governors.

17:50

Yeah. You know, you had the deal bumpers of the

17:52

world and the ruben asks you of the world, and

17:54

they were and and And

17:56

in the Senate, you had folks like Sam, None,

17:58

and others, and it was a whole new

18:00

generation of leaders in the

18:02

South that were moving beyond civil

18:04

rights. into more equal

18:06

rights as well as prosperity.

18:08

And that's that really attracted

18:10

me, and and I got to know

18:13

senator who when he was chief justice? Hey, by the way, Bill Clinton

18:15

got elected governor of

18:17

Arkansas while you were in law

18:19

school. That's right. He got elected his

18:21

first time. was in law school, he came

18:23

to law the the law school was our law

18:25

day speaker, traveled around with him,

18:27

got picked him up and, you know, it's just me

18:29

and one other buddy with the governor

18:31

and, you know, and it was that that

18:33

that young group of

18:35

new South governors and leaders that I thought

18:37

were really gonna lead. And and Alabama had

18:40

a couple those. Bill Baxley -- Mhmm. -- who

18:42

was Alabama's attorney general.

18:44

You slipped out of class to go watch

18:46

him -- Yeah. -- prosecute two

18:48

others who were charged in

18:50

One other one other Robert Chambliss.

18:52

Bill prosecuted dynamite

18:54

Bob Chambliss for the for

18:56

the murder of Denise McNear in

18:58

the in the church bombing, and I did.

19:00

I cut classes in law school because

19:03

I had this interesting interaction

19:05

with William of Douglas, Justice Douglas when

19:07

I was in college. and I

19:09

asked him his advice on on You're like, Zelda gave me

19:11

all these famous people. It was just incredible the

19:13

way they passed. And he I asked

19:15

him about his advice of about

19:18

being a trial lawyer. And he said,

19:20

watch watch lawyers. Watch good lawyers.

19:22

Apply their trade and don't imitate them,

19:24

but just watch them and then understand.

19:26

And So I did. I I learned more watching that

19:28

that those three or four days of that

19:30

that jury. And and Bill but but Bill was

19:32

one of those leaders. He was one of those

19:35

what I call the new South leaders at the time that I thought

19:37

could bring Alabama forward.

19:39

And, unfortunately, he got he got beat

19:41

in nineteen seventy eight

19:44

for governor. by Bob James,

19:46

and then he got beat again later on

19:48

in nineteen eighty six. Another

19:50

politician that you met at the time was a young

19:53

Senator from Delaware -- Okay. -- where you got to

19:55

introduce an event -- Yep. --

19:57

there. Tell me about that. I first

19:59

met Joe He was in his first

20:01

term. And when I was in law school,

20:03

he came and spoke, we had a really

20:05

good speaker series at my law school.

20:07

I guess. Yeah. He he he really

20:09

had a good one. And he liked come on. He had been

20:11

there a couple of times before before

20:13

I got there. And I was just really taken.

20:15

He was young. He and Jill had just

20:17

got married. She came with him. And

20:20

I just thought that his charisma

20:22

and his politics. And the thing that

20:24

I always remember was

20:26

that he he to me, he was the kind of

20:28

politician who looked in the eye and tells you

20:30

what he believes and tries

20:32

to engage in discussion about what

20:34

you each believe. And at

20:36

the end of the day, if if somebody

20:38

can't support him, he says, fine, the vote

20:40

anyway. But we maybe we can do

20:42

something on on a different and I was

20:44

just really impressed

20:46

from day one, and we just

20:48

maintained contact ever since he came out was

20:50

in nineteen eighty eight, which was ten years

20:52

after I first met him

20:54

I was gonna be his one of his

20:56

co chairs for the state of Alabama, and he came

20:58

and we did a whole swing through Alabama,

21:00

and it was just it was just great before

21:02

he had to to drop out. Thank god he

21:05

did because he had that aneurysm right

21:07

after him. Yeah. We're

21:09

gonna take a short break and we'll be

21:11

right back with more of the x files.

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22:15

On this

22:16

week's episode of the all

22:18

there is with Anderson Cooper. Molly

22:19

Shannon. One of the things you write about

22:21

is you said I realized I've been running for

22:24

years trying to make it. And when I finally got

22:26

there, meaning success I'm signing

22:28

out there was still that ache. I really

22:29

only wanted my mom. I just

22:32

wanted her. I thought maybe if I

22:34

become famous enough like,

22:36

come back and tell me that

22:38

she's so proud of me and Listen to

22:40

the podcast all there is with Anderson Cooper on

22:42

Apple Podcasts or wherever you

22:44

listen to podcasts.

22:45

And

22:50

now back to the show.

22:57

I

22:57

wanna talk a little later about that instinct of

22:59

what we could talk about right now, that instinct of

23:01

his that you talk about, that I think

23:03

is very deeply ingrained in one that was reinforced

23:05

during thirty six years in the United States

23:07

Senate, which is, okay, we don't

23:09

agree on this. How about

23:10

on that? How about let's work on that

23:12

-- Yeah. -- which is, to my

23:15

mind, a great impulse in a

23:17

democracy, very necessary

23:20

but it's a harder thing to

23:22

sustain in a very polarized country.

23:24

There are a lot of Republicans who

23:26

don't think Republicans who work with them

23:28

and democrats who don't think democrats should work with the

23:31

Republican. Yeah. It's getting harder and

23:33

harder to do that these days. I don't think

23:35

there's any question about that,

23:37

but it's It truly is what attracted me to

23:39

Biden very straightforward in

23:41

his beliefs. But I've always I

23:43

always saw him and I watched him work over

23:45

the years. that he could absolutely

23:47

do that. He would give

23:49

people the leeway to to talk about

23:51

these issues. And it and and it's you're

23:54

talking about I think Biden's

23:56

always said, look, we really

23:58

have objectives that are the

24:00

same. We may disagree on how to

24:02

get there. We have objectives about good

24:04

health care, about a strong foreign policy,

24:06

whatever it is. Now let's figure out the

24:08

common ground that we've got to reach our

24:10

mutual objectives. And I think he's been

24:12

incredibly successful. That's why I

24:14

think he was in the Senate as long

24:16

as he was, that he rose through those

24:18

ranks, that he did amazing jobs when he

24:20

was chairman of of various

24:22

committees. And quite frankly, I think it's

24:24

why he was elected at a at a moment

24:26

in history. I told him

24:28

not long after he got elected that

24:30

I had waited for almost

24:33

I guess it was right at forty

24:36

years plus for me to be able to call in mister

24:38

president. But

24:39

I felt like there was

24:40

a reason. I just as

24:43

it turns out, I

24:46

think that it was his time and

24:48

his place and a moment in history

24:50

that only he could achieve

24:52

in two thousand and twenty. It took

24:54

a long time and but I really

24:56

do believe there's a reason for so

24:58

many things that happen in life.

25:01

and that his delay in becoming president was for

25:03

the right moment at the right time

25:05

with his experience and his

25:07

and the way he perceived

25:09

government and the and the senate and

25:11

the legislature. Danny's produced, you

25:14

know, is some very

25:16

impressive

25:17

bipartisan. He said a in a

25:19

in a very, very difficult -- Yeah.

25:21

-- environment. But let me ask you a

25:24

harder question. this November will mark the

25:26

fiftieth anniversary of his election to the

25:28

senate. There's nobody alive today who

25:30

was in the senate at the time that he

25:32

was elected to the senate. accepting

25:34

everything you say about the importance of

25:36

his election in two thousand and twenty at

25:38

the time that had happened. And everything that

25:41

he's accomplished What

25:43

would you advise him now

25:44

about looking forward to two thousand and

25:47

twenty four knowing that he'd be

25:49

eighty two years old when he got

25:51

elected? Yeah. You know, they I gotta be honest with

25:53

you. If he if he asked

25:55

if he would like to get my advice, I'm happy

25:57

to sit down and talk to him, but

25:59

think that that would be between two old friends that have

26:01

known each other. That's a very appropriate answer. And

26:03

the good news is that I know every

26:05

week he looks forward to listening to

26:08

the acts files, and he'll hear that. And he'll

26:10

probably give you a call and ask you

26:12

for your and ask you for your

26:14

He's got a lot of great advisors. So we'll

26:17

we'll see I do think he understands though and

26:19

knows where things are. And and I

26:21

think it's gonna be a a difficult call

26:23

for him. It's not like normal

26:25

run for reelection. Listen. If

26:27

if Joe Biden were sixty -- Oh,

26:29

and -- there wouldn't be any discussion about whether he

26:31

should run for reelection. You know,

26:34

worked for president who a

26:36

year before he ran for reelection,

26:39

the headline on

26:39

the New York Times magazine was

26:42

is Obama toast Nate wrote

26:44

the piece. And so, you know,

26:46

politics can change very rapidly. This

26:48

isn't really a question about politics.

26:50

This is saying it's an actuarial question,

26:52

not a political question. It's a it's a very personal

26:54

question. Yeah. And so much of of everything

26:56

that Joe Biden has done in his in

26:59

his career, has been a very personal

27:01

connection -- Yeah. -- to a decision.

27:03

So you were talking about Hal Hefflin -- Yeah. --

27:05

who is one of the great characters in the

27:07

United States Senate of the Judge. Did you help

27:09

anybody really call them senator? They all said the

27:11

judge because he had been, I

27:13

guess, a state supreme court judge --

27:15

Justice. -- before he went to

27:17

the senate. talk talk to

27:19

me about him and what you learned from

27:21

him in your four years as you left law

27:23

school, you became his counsel. Yeah. He

27:25

was I I just think one

27:27

of Alabama's great leaders and was also one

27:29

of those transition leaders.

27:32

You you look at Kathleen, he was a

27:34

huge man. We call him the

27:36

the buffalo. and he he

27:38

talked, like, an old Southern He

27:40

did. pop Yes. He's, like, from central

27:42

cast. Exactly. And he and he he gave

27:44

all he was funny. He would give

27:46

these stories. But yet

27:48

beneath that, there was a man of great

27:50

intelligence and compassion. And he

27:52

was that bridge to the minority communities

27:54

and others in Alabama that

27:56

I'm not sure he gets all enough credit for.

27:58

And what I saw with him was

28:00

were two things. First of all, he came he

28:02

was elected chief justice since nineteen seventy

28:04

to modernize Alabama's court system.

28:07

And he did it. That's where we first met. I

28:09

would campaign to try to get a

28:11

judicial article passed by the

28:13

state of Alabama, and it really did. He

28:15

won just act a

28:17

claim across the country for what he did in

28:19

Alabama's court system. And

28:21

then working with him in the

28:23

the campaign and then in the senate, I

28:26

saw the ability to try

28:28

to work with people from all

28:30

sides. He had union support. He

28:32

had business support. He had black

28:34

support. He had white support. He

28:36

you know, there was the director of

28:38

the ACLU one time said

28:41

about how well Heffel and this is in the nineteen

28:43

seventies. He said, you know, he's somebody

28:45

that I that me, my mother, and my grandmother can all

28:47

agree. And that was saying a lot

28:49

in Alabama in those days.

28:51

And and so he was just a

28:53

great teacher. learn an awful

28:55

awful lot from it. You did stint as

28:57

a assistant

28:58

US attorney -- Mhmm. -- after you

29:00

left Heflin's office. And then you went

29:02

into private practice for years. And then

29:04

in nineteen ninety seven, Bill

29:07

Clinton appointed you -- Right. --

29:09

US attorney for Northern

29:11

Alabama. Let me just ask

29:13

you one did you not, in that period of time,

29:15

consider doing something political

29:17

running yourself for office? Yeah. It

29:19

just didn't work out. you know, I

29:21

I tried I thought about it. I

29:23

thought

29:23

about several times as a matter of

29:25

fact, but where I happen to be living at

29:28

the time where things were.

29:30

It just didn't work out at at

29:32

the time. We we had a lot of good

29:34

democrats in the legislature and in

29:36

congress at the time. And I

29:38

was trying to get my law practice

29:40

up and running after I left the US

29:42

attorney as an assistant US attorney.

29:45

And so it just didn't present itself. I worked on

29:47

the Clinton campaign. I worked on a bunch

29:49

of campaigns, but it just didn't present

29:52

itself. But also

29:54

had it in mind that being the US

29:56

attorney in Birmingham would be a pretty

29:58

good gig. It was. It was

30:00

just really remarkable and that to be

30:02

able to do that with something Well, let's talk

30:04

about that because one thing that you

30:06

did was you did prosecute those

30:09

two clan members, Bobby, Cherry,

30:11

and Edwin, Blanton. Yeah. And

30:13

I know that you'd be friended one

30:16

of the fathers of one of

30:18

the the young girls who got --

30:20

Mhmm. -- killed in that blast

30:22

who ended up becoming a state legislator.

30:25

Yeah. there. Tell

30:27

me sort of what that all meant to

30:29

you being involved in that.

30:31

Well, it was it was just a

30:33

remarkable circle of life to me to

30:35

some extent. stent to have been a a kid,

30:37

young lawyer wanna

30:39

be, cutting classes to

30:41

watch the

30:43

first prosecution of that

30:45

case. But then getting to know

30:47

Chris McNear, who's who you're referring to? Yes.

30:49

Yes. Yes. Was in the other case

30:51

was killed in that Exactly.

30:53

And he was actually my legislator

30:55

in Fairfield at the time. And when

30:57

he decided to run for Congress,

30:59

I wouldn't talk to him about maybe running for that

31:02

seat going back to your earlier

31:04

question. And it was he was really funny.

31:06

He says, well, he he listened to me. He said, Doug, I

31:08

really appreciate, but, geez. And, you know, this

31:10

has kind of been this has kind of

31:12

been set as this is really kind of

31:14

a black seat now. I said, oh,

31:17

okay, I get that. And so but

31:19

he and I stayed friends too and

31:22

did some things over the years when he got

31:24

elected to the county commission. And

31:26

the whole thing with the church bombing just kind of fell just

31:29

right. There'd been some cases in Mississippi

31:31

that were reopened the Medgar Evers

31:33

murder? Yes. the

31:35

Vernon Damer murder and and

31:37

successfully prosecuted decades after the

31:39

fact. And things just

31:41

happened, and the case got reopened right

31:43

before I became US attorney. my

31:45

staff really didn't know my history with the

31:47

families much less sitting in as a kid

31:49

watching the earlier trial. And we

31:51

just you know, we said about to do

31:53

something not knowing whether we could be

31:55

successful when I told the staff

31:57

at the time when they kept saying don't get

31:59

your hopes up because it's old case.

32:01

the evidence may not be there. And I said, well,

32:04

you're right. But if we don't do it

32:06

now, we'll never get done. And I think

32:08

this family's and this community

32:10

deserves our best effort because there was a

32:12

thought that the FBI had not given their

32:14

best effort in the sixties. They in

32:16

fact had and just couldn't prosecute the

32:18

cases. And so it just it

32:20

worked out in in an amazing fashion.

32:22

Yeah. You got some helpful

32:25

evidence. Cherry's ex wife I

32:27

guess, Blattens a girlfriend or somebody else?

32:29

Yeah. Blattens a a former girlfriend

32:31

came forward. The real key in

32:33

Blattens case though was a tape recording.

32:36

because Jay Edgar Hoover and the FBI were putting

32:39

tapes and bugs everywhere and

32:41

getting that into evidence. And there was

32:44

was a a challenge for us, but there was one tape where

32:46

Blanton admitted to

32:48

his then wife and one other person who

32:50

he never identified. of

32:52

being part of a group the weekend of the

32:54

bombing that was at this river right

32:56

south of Birmingham, being a part of the group

32:58

that was planning the bomb and making the bomb. And

33:00

that was the real That was

33:02

the real kicker for him when we found

33:04

that tape. Cherry was a lot different. Cherry

33:06

had made admissions over the years. He just got

33:08

lazy. He got comfortable that he

33:11

had gotten away with us. Bagged about

33:13

it. Bagged about it into a number of

33:15

people over with an ex

33:17

wife with coworkers and some things. We had five or six

33:19

people that came forward mainly

33:21

from the media that saw the

33:23

media and called us and said, let me tell you what

33:25

this guy told me one time. twenty

33:27

years ago. What did it mean to you when you

33:29

heard those verdicts? Oh, it was it it

33:31

I can't describe it. I mean, I

33:33

just I knew what it

33:35

meant to Birmingham and

33:37

my state and to the country. I I

33:39

think I underestimated a little bit,

33:42

but you get in a

33:44

case like that, you really do get

33:46

invested, and I tried my

33:48

best to stay

33:50

objective. I didn't talk to Chris McNear

33:52

very much at all. I didn't talk to the families

33:54

very much. I didn't talk to Bill Baxley

33:56

who had prosecuted the first case because I

33:58

I felt like I needed to try

34:00

to be as objective. You wanted to make

34:02

an objective judgment as to whether you had a

34:04

case. Exactly. I knew that there might

34:06

be a time that I had to go before cameras and

34:09

say, we can't do it. And but

34:11

once you get over that and you know you're gonna do it, you

34:13

really get invested, you get to

34:15

know those girls. that

34:18

die. You get to know their families. You

34:20

get to see how the

34:22

community is reacting. And when

34:24

you hear the

34:26

testimony of a parent who lost

34:28

a child some thirty seven years earlier.

34:30

You know what it means for victims.

34:33

and that as I said to the jury

34:35

that a mother's a mother's heart never stops

34:37

crying for the loss of a child. Yeah. And you're

34:39

a parent that Yes. I'm sure you thought about your own.

34:41

Oh, I did. For sure. In fact, my daughter, I'll

34:44

let her cut classes in junior high

34:46

to come watch

34:48

the trials. future senator. Yeah. It could be. You never

34:50

know. If if not her her

34:52

little girl, it may be

34:54

the the most obvious

34:56

one right now. You went back into private

34:58

practice and one of the

35:00

notable things you did was you

35:02

sued Monsanto on

35:04

behalf of a community

35:06

that Monsanto released PCBs

35:08

and their waterways. Yes. Actually,

35:10

I didn't see. What happened on that was that Oh,

35:13

you were appointed? You were appointed like a

35:15

special man. I was appointed special

35:17

master, which is all in the news these days. Yes. Yes. So

35:20

I'm a special place in my heart for special

35:22

masters. Yeah. But, yeah,

35:24

this one seems more appropriate,

35:26

but that's a snapshot. No. No. There is no question. Okay.

35:28

The court had in

35:30

Montana and Solusia

35:32

had settled with the government.

35:36

of to go through years of

35:38

clean up for the PCB

35:40

releases that were in the Aniston,

35:42

Alabama area. And I was the eyes

35:44

and ears of the court. I helped monitor that. It's still ongoing right now. I I

35:46

left when I announced my

35:50

candidacy, there's another special master that's working on it as

35:52

well. But that was really interesting. And

35:54

then you could see what happened in that

35:56

area. It was just

35:58

horrible to what was released

36:00

into that into Calhoun County, Alabama.

36:02

And with with deleterious

36:04

health effects to Oh, there's no question

36:07

about it. it it and it was all and see,

36:09

it it was made worse because they would put

36:11

all of this this fill at

36:13

the at the plant.

36:15

and people used to go get this fill and they would they would put

36:17

it on their in their yards. That's how they would

36:19

grow their yards. So these communities, it

36:22

wasn't just airborne or

36:24

waterborne PCBs. It was

36:26

literally filled from the plant that

36:28

people used to exceed

36:30

their lawns and get their lawns going in so that

36:32

you had clean up all over. They

36:34

had to literally had to test lawns everywhere

36:36

in earnest. Let me just interject here.

36:39

And since you raised the

36:41

special master point, How much trouble

36:43

is Donald Trump in? You know, it's

36:46

hard to say because there is so much

36:48

we really don't know that's going on

36:50

behind the scenes. That's one of the things I keep

36:52

reminding people, this, the

36:54

criminal investigations are not

36:57

January six committees. that is done with open subpoenas

36:59

and testimony and being able to video.

37:02

So much of that evidence, they may turn

37:04

over, but

37:06

you you cannot use that evidence per se in a criminal

37:08

case because there's no cross examination

37:10

under the constitution. I think some

37:12

of the evidence is getting to be pretty particularly

37:16

down in at Mar a Lago. Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say

37:18

there's one thing we do know. We do know

37:20

that president Trump, when

37:23

he left office, took at

37:25

least a hundred classified documents

37:28

with him to Mar a Lago. Yeah.

37:30

You are on the Senate Armed Services

37:32

Committee, so you probably had were privy

37:34

to a lot of sensitive, went to a skiff -- Right.

37:37

-- which are these protected environments in

37:39

which you can look at

37:41

this so that We couldn't even take our phones into the skiff. I couldn't even

37:43

take my little ear pods, you know, my that

37:46

you wear to listen, you know, the Bluetooth music.

37:48

You couldn't even take those

37:50

in there. and you couldn't take anything out. They

37:52

kept my file with my name on

37:53

it, so I wanted to make notes. They

37:55

kept those notes in

37:58

those files. I think that there

38:00

is some great risk to him down there. In part, David, because

38:02

everybody knows what confidential material

38:04

is. Everybody knows what top secret material

38:08

everybody understands the nature of all that. When you get

38:11

into the things of January six and sedition

38:13

and you get into things,

38:16

about inciting rights. I think it can get a little blurry sometimes

38:18

and a little fuzzy. But it

38:21

seems to me that there are

38:23

they're building a pretty strong

38:26

case. That is, to some

38:28

extent, consistent with what I

38:30

saw with Donald Trump

38:32

as president, just a

38:34

complete lack of respect,

38:37

for institutions of

38:39

government, for protocol, for rules,

38:41

and sometimes even

38:43

laws. It's why I voted the way

38:46

I did as guilty in his first

38:48

impeachment. And it's interesting

38:50

because what you're seeing sometimes, you know, you see so many

38:52

things repeated with Donald Trump.

38:54

We talked about this yesterday. You

38:56

see so many things

38:58

repeated. And And

39:00

what concerns me about Mar a Lago is

39:02

not whether or not Trump's gonna get

39:04

indicted. The court's gonna take care. The

39:06

DOJ is gonna do what they're gonna do

39:08

on that. but it does concern me from a national security

39:10

standpoint. And what was in

39:12

those blank folders that

39:15

were that were classified information. And where is

39:17

that where is that documentation now? That

39:19

troubles me a lot. Yeah. Let me ask you

39:21

though beyond national

39:24

security, from a standpoint

39:26

of just the Republic, you know.

39:28

Right. If you were the attorney

39:30

general and you almost were the

39:32

attorney general, we know you were that

39:34

you were heavily considered for that position probably

39:37

got penalized for being too close to

39:39

the president. You have to weigh a couple of

39:41

things. Don't you? Yes. Oh,

39:43

yes. You have to I because it the the

39:45

the weightiness of indicting a

39:48

former president, you know, it's never

39:50

happened before. you know, Nixon

39:52

was pardoned by president

39:54

Ford. And Trump already said, well,

39:56

this will tear the country apart if they do this.

39:58

And he would probably make damn sure that it

40:00

would. But on the other hand, we have

40:02

this principle that nobody's above the law.

40:06

Right. And every norm you break, every principle you

40:08

aggregate, very hard to

40:10

put that back together. Yes. So what

40:11

do you do? I I think it's gonna be a

40:13

very difficult decision

40:16

the Department of Justice, and ultimately, the attorney general ultimately, the

40:18

attorney general will make the final call

40:21

on that. I say, make

40:23

the final ultimate call is whether or not a grand

40:26

jury will and died. And I know people say

40:28

that, you know -- You you -- prosecutors

40:30

didn't die to Ham sandwich. Well, that's not

40:32

always the case. But think

40:34

the AG is gonna really weigh this very

40:36

heavily because there are pros and cons

40:38

from a very historical

40:41

and policy perspective. But at the

40:43

same time, I I don't think that

40:46

comments like Trump made

40:49

concerning riots or that

40:51

Lindsey Graham made about riots or that Ultera

40:53

country apart. I don't think they're gonna use that as the

40:55

determining factor. I think they've got to look at

40:57

the law, the evidence whether or not they can prove

40:59

it in that jurisdiction. beyond

41:02

a reasonable doubt. It's a, you know, that's a there's a lot

41:04

of things that they'll have to look at like this.

41:06

It's not gonna be an easy to call though.

41:09

despite what the others might have

41:12

shown. We're gonna take a short break and

41:14

we'll be right back with more of the

41:16

x fives.

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42:19

On this

42:20

week's episode of the podcast, all there

42:22

is with Anderson Cooper.

42:23

Molly Shannon, one of the things you

42:25

write about is you said I realized I've

42:27

been running for years trying to make it. And when

42:29

I finally got there, meaning success I'm signing out live, there was still

42:31

that ache. I really only wanted

42:33

my mom. I just

42:36

wanted her I thought maybe if I become famous enough,

42:38

she'll, like, come back and tell

42:40

me that she's so proud of

42:42

me and Listen to the

42:44

podcast all there is with Anderson Cooper on

42:46

Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

42:48

to podcasts.

42:49

And

42:51

now back to

42:54

the

42:54

show.

43:00

as

43:00

someone who prosecuted white

43:02

supremacy and white extremism in

43:05

the past, how concerned

43:07

are you now about a

43:10

resurgence of extremism. Oh,

43:12

David. I've been I've been concerned about

43:14

that for a long time. I mean, even beyond

43:17

even before you know, even before he really

43:20

brought it out from under the shadow

43:22

some, I think. I have been

43:24

concerned. I think it's it it it's

43:26

a combination of when the

43:28

courts and others started rolling

43:30

back voting rights, it

43:32

it empowered

43:34

people I think, to try to do some some things. We

43:36

saw it with the advent of the Internet WAC.

43:38

We saw it with the advent of the

43:40

Internet WAC when I was

43:42

US attorney, and we saw hate groups on

43:44

the Internet that were really

43:47

recruiting these lone wolves to go out

43:49

and and do their damage. We

43:51

saw it happen in time and time again. Ricky

43:53

birdsong, you know, I think was a coach up this way.

43:56

Yes. Yes. Of Northwest and West. That

43:58

happened, you know, at a time when I was

44:00

US attorney. And

44:02

He he was murdered. He was murdered. And it was a it was a

44:04

hate crime -- Mhmm. -- murder. And there's always been

44:07

a You actually you

44:09

you took office not more

44:11

than a couple years after the

44:13

Oklahoma City -- Correct. -- bombing.

44:15

So Yeah. And and is all of

44:17

that comes into play? And what what by

44:20

the way, we should point out and I didn't mention it. The one of the other people you prosecuted was Eric Rudolf,

44:22

who was the abortion

44:24

bomber who who bomb the

44:28

the the the Olympics in nineteen ninety six. Yeah. He

44:30

he Was it ninety six? Yeah. It was ninety

44:32

six Olympics in Atlanta that he bombed

44:34

in in Centennial Park, so one

44:37

lady died. And then a couple of years

44:40

later, in ninety eight, I'd only been

44:42

US attorney five months when he set a

44:44

bomb off at a women's clinic

44:46

that performed abortions killed in Alabama, Birmingham police

44:48

officer, badly badly badly badly

44:50

wounded a nurse. And

44:52

so you you see this kinda

44:56

kind of proliferation of these kind of hate crimes, and it goes

44:58

beyond race now. It goes into

45:00

to religion like against

45:03

Muslims. It goes beyond

45:06

just pure race. And

45:08

I I have

45:09

been concerned about backsliding in civil

45:10

rights for some time. but

45:13

we've certainly seen a rise of the

45:15

white nationalist fervor hate

45:18

crimes across the country, anti Semitic

45:20

crimes across the country. And I know

45:22

there's a lot of focus on that now to try to figure

45:25

out what to do on that, but it's a

45:27

it's a growing problem. The

45:30

radical right there is violence on both left and right, but

45:32

clearly the radical right is responsible

45:34

for more of the extremist violence in

45:36

this country.

45:38

And that's something

45:40

that I think, unfortunately, Donald

45:43

Trump stoked by talking telling

45:45

the Proud Boys to stand

45:48

by by telling that saying that there were good people

45:50

on both sides in the Charlottesville

45:52

incident. I mean, it's it's

45:55

just stunning. And people feeling power. A lot of enablers here.

45:57

A lot of enablers. But but, you know,

45:59

when I go back to where we were

46:02

David talking early

46:04

in this podcast about

46:06

where I grew up.

46:08

I saw the same rhetoric coming from Bull

46:10

Connor. I saw the same rhetoric coming

46:12

from George Wallace, and it was dog whistles.

46:14

It was telling these folks that it's okay to go commit crimes

46:17

against black folks because we're not

46:19

gonna do anything. And and

46:22

they didn't. and that was a real problem. And

46:24

today's dog whistles are often done

46:26

in ways that I'm not sure

46:28

people even mean to cause

46:30

that violence. but

46:32

there are people out there that are listening and they're hearing it one

46:35

way that may not be intended.

46:37

That's why, for instance, comments

46:40

that that My friend senator Graham said about will

46:42

be riots. I thought was

46:44

a really poor choice of words.

46:48

because he was essentially saying, it's okay to riot. When all

46:50

he had to see

46:51

would say, I'm

46:52

concerned. I don't wanna tear this

46:56

country apart. this could tear the country

46:58

apart. We could see this. I hope not, but instead he says

47:00

there will be acts. And

47:03

I think that's a real problem. And I don't think

47:06

people always understand if they

47:08

didn't grow up listening to the kind of rhetoric

47:10

I did, They don't always

47:12

fully appreciate the words that they have

47:14

because words matter and they have

47:16

consequences. Iran for the Senate

47:18

in ninety seven I'm sorry. In in two thousand and seventeen

47:20

now I'm getting a mess up on my dates.

47:22

In two thousand and seventeen,

47:24

after Jeff Sessions was appointed

47:28

attorney general. Did you when you announced did

47:31

you have high expectations that you could

47:33

win that race?

47:36

We I won't say we had high expectations, but we did

47:38

see a path. We felt like that

47:40

there was gonna be It hadn't been a

47:42

Democrat in twenty five years. No. But it

47:45

was a special and that was number one. And

47:47

and the two candidates that we saw as the

47:50

leading nominees

47:52

for the Republican Party, we think

47:55

had flaws that could be exploited

47:57

in different ways, but we saw

47:59

a path.

47:59

But importantly, it

48:02

was going to be the only race on

48:04

the ballot it was not by race

48:06

or presidential races. And

48:09

we could we could give a voice

48:11

to people that had that of felt

48:14

like they hadn't had a voice in a long time in Despite the

48:16

fact that Republicans have been winning

48:19

for so many years, there's

48:21

still forty percent of the people that vote Democratic

48:24

and they just don't have a voice. And

48:26

so we thought, you know, there

48:28

is a there is a

48:30

path here. But more importantly, there's an opportunity to try to

48:32

build. To try to let people know that

48:34

it's okay to be a Democrat,

48:36

it's okay to be a a more

48:38

progressive voice, and

48:40

to stand up for the things that you believe in.

48:42

And so I wouldn't say we had

48:44

high expectations. We

48:46

did have high hopes and we had high

48:48

dreams. and you won. You

48:50

got Roy Moore was your opponent who was extraordinarily

48:54

flawed candidate. and

48:56

you won by a point and a half. You

48:58

had three years and you had to run again

49:00

in in two thousand and twenty, which would

49:02

be a presidential

49:04

year. Right. I mean, was there kind of a dead man walking

49:06

field to this when you got there? Did everybody

49:08

did you and others have expectations that

49:11

Probably this three year gig. We had

49:14

expectations that it was likely to gonna be a three

49:16

year gig, but we didn't approach it

49:18

that way. I never felt like I was a dead man walking what? I felt

49:20

like I it that that I was truly

49:22

liberated. I did what I said I was gonna do.

49:24

I ran

49:26

and I I operated I think a senator

49:28

exactly what I said I was

49:30

gonna do. I didn't waiver from

49:32

that. I worked

49:34

with people. I never told

49:36

anybody I was gonna vote for every Trump

49:38

judge, and I ended up voting for a majority

49:40

of them. I didn't tell everybody that I

49:42

was gonna absolutely vote for a Trump Supreme Court nominee or if he

49:44

got impeached, I would vote one way or

49:46

another. What I did was to do things

49:48

for all segments of the people of

49:50

the state. and did it in a way

49:52

that I said I was gonna do it and

49:54

try to represent all people. Civil

49:56

rights, advocates, you name it.

49:58

And so it was it was a little

49:59

bit liberating in that sense.

50:02

Yeah. You know, I mean, it strikes me that way.

50:04

I mean, you you worked very much

50:06

across party lines

50:08

very hard to pigeonhole. Yeah.

50:11

You you you had the

50:13

probably the most bipartisan record in

50:15

the in the senate. But and then then on

50:18

other things, your first speech was on gun --

50:20

Yeah. -- guns after Parkland --

50:22

Right. -- not a speech

50:24

that was necessarily gonna be helpful to you in

50:26

Alabama? No. It wasn't because I knew

50:28

that those there's a there were a lot of people that

50:30

wouldn't listen to it. Okay?

50:32

For instance, I can remember

50:33

comment from the head of the NRA

50:36

in Alabama who said it was just another

50:38

gun grabbing speech. There was

50:40

nothing in my speech about

50:42

gun grab nothing that could even be construed that way. So it

50:44

but it was one of those things after Parkland

50:46

I felt very strong about.

50:49

that because I'm a I'm a gun guy in the sense and I've

50:52

got a gun in the speech. Yeah. And I'm a

50:54

hunter and I like to shoot.

50:56

But the fact is we had to do

50:58

some things We needed to do some things with some common sense

51:00

measures to try to stop deaths, and

51:02

that included not just the mass shootings,

51:04

but also suicides

51:06

and other domestic violence

51:08

that we could do. So it was I

51:10

I had this unique opportunity. People

51:12

would always say, well, he's, you know,

51:15

he's just he just read it do

51:17

XYZ Yeah. But I never did anything that was just was

51:19

not me. Well, listen, people

51:21

say that because it's

51:24

appealing to see members of

51:26

congress doing what they think is

51:28

right instead of worrying about the

51:30

next election. Right.

51:32

I mean, it's all too uncommon. I mean, not to say that there acts

51:34

of courage in congress or but

51:36

the norm is looking over your

51:38

shoulder and looking at the next election

51:42

and the next election didn't go particularly well.

51:44

You are on the ballot and a presidential

51:46

election. You are well well regarded

51:49

in the senate. I suspect well liked in your state

51:51

and lost by twenty one points -- Yeah.

51:53

-- to coach

51:56

Tuberville from Auburn, who

51:58

wouldn't debate, wouldn't do

51:59

interviews. How deflating was that? Or

52:02

were you prepared for? Oh, I was prepared for it. I

52:04

don't think my family was as

52:06

prepared as was, but I was prepared for it. I've been you know, look, I've been

52:08

in politics a long time as a

52:10

worker bee and and a staffer and

52:12

everything else.

52:14

And so I knew where things were and how things were gonna

52:16

end up going. And I knew that if I

52:18

could ever get tougher for or more,

52:20

he didn't debate either. on a debate

52:23

stage and people could see some of the things. We're also campaigning in

52:25

COVID, and that made it really difficult

52:27

to get out. So, you know, by the time

52:29

the election rolled around, I

52:32

knew exactly where this was gonna go. Uh-huh. And I was

52:34

prepared for that. You know, I I

52:36

left offices US attorney. I mean, I'm

52:38

a big boy when it comes to

52:40

politics. And But I'm

52:42

often asked, would you do anything different in the

52:44

answer? I've got a couple of

52:46

votes. I would probably do different, but they're

52:48

not votes that cost me the

52:50

election by any stretch. The couple of

52:52

votes your cast were against supreme court

52:54

nominees. One of them

52:56

was justice Kevin. Uh-huh.

52:58

Looking back, do you think

53:00

that he willfully intentionally

53:02

misled the Senate on

53:04

Roe versus Wade? I'm not gonna go

53:06

there. I know that so many Democrats

53:08

say that that they ought to be impeached for perjury. Yeah. I'm

53:10

not asking if this should be impeached. Yeah. No. Look, what I heard

53:13

from all of those justices

53:15

was a standard line

53:18

that row versus wade is the

53:20

settled law of the land. And

53:22

it was. There was nothing

53:24

untrue about that. he never

53:26

said one way or another, neither

53:28

did justice Corsage or

53:30

Barrett, excuse me Barrett, that they would

53:32

vote to overturn it or they would uphold it.

53:34

They never said that. They parse their words very carefully

53:36

in a manner that's been done over the last

53:38

twenty years. And people,

53:40

you know, there there is there's

53:43

a line from the judge and to Killam Misenberg who

53:46

says, you know, people see what they wanna see and

53:48

hear what they wanna hear. And that's

53:50

what happened I think a lot

53:52

with those. And if you just look at the

53:54

words, you and and

53:56

take away who said them, you never

53:58

really know who made that

54:00

comment because it was

54:02

very plain and generic. And

54:04

III hate that some people, some

54:06

friends of mine, that voted in favor of justice

54:08

Kavanaugh feel betrayed. But

54:10

I think they were kinda wanting him to say

54:12

and they heard what they

54:14

wanted here. you

54:15

also voted against justice

54:18

Barrett. Mhmm. And you did it

54:20

because Mitch McConnell had

54:23

slow walked America Garland's nomination on the

54:25

theory that let the people vote. Right? And

54:27

then sped this one up right before

54:30

the election of two thousand

54:32

and twenty how much

54:34

damage did all these

54:36

machinations do to the court as

54:37

an institution? I think the

54:39

court has been significantly damaged with the

54:41

the politics surrounding the

54:44

nominations of some

54:46

of the justices,

54:48

including, you know, what senator

54:50

McConnell did by holding off

54:52

and not even not even giving merit

54:54

garnering, not

54:57

trying to move on that

54:59

at all. Just controlling and not giving

55:01

him a hearing. And then I just Because

55:03

if he had given him a hearing, he very if

55:05

he had gotten a vote, he very likely would

55:08

have won I think he very well

55:10

could have have done although he would

55:12

have had at that time, he would have to get sixty

55:14

votes, you know, senate. Right. Right. I don't

55:16

think I don't think McConnell would have

55:18

nuked the filibuster. Right. for

55:21

for America. Right. Of course. So it it

55:23

America's right. But, you

55:26

know, when it came time for justice,

55:28

Kony Barrett, I I just I just could not do

55:30

that. I knew she had the votes

55:32

to pass. And so it was one

55:34

of the rare I think I took two

55:36

protest votes. One was on another judge.

55:38

in a spot that had been held open for seven years by Ron Johnson

55:41

in Wisconsin. And in this one,

55:43

I just said, no, I I cannot

55:45

do this. It doesn't. And

55:47

I made that announcement before the

55:50

president announced his nominee.

55:52

And Susan Collins, my friend who I worked

55:54

with on the other side of the alabunch.

55:56

had the same did the same thing. I meant

55:57

to ask you this about your campaign. One thing that

55:59

happened in your campaign, you

56:01

know, people don't take

56:03

into account the impact of campaigns on

56:06

family. Yeah. And your

56:08

son Carson wrote a an open

56:10

letter to the state senate of

56:13

Alabama because they

56:16

suspended the issuance of marriage licenses

56:18

rather than issue them to

56:20

gay couples, and he he's

56:22

gay. Yes. how did you react when when he wrote

56:24

that letter?

56:24

I was very proud of

56:26

him. I mean, that's the kind of

56:28

thing that I think more people need

56:31

to stand up. whether you're gay or

56:33

not. When the legislature reacts in a way like that

56:36

to to take away I mean, it's just silly.

56:38

It was just a

56:40

silly reaction to something

56:42

that was now the law of the land.

56:44

And so I was very proud of him and

56:46

and and standing up and speaking out. That's

56:48

what John Lewis taught us

56:50

to do. causes a little good trouble, you know. Mhmm.

56:52

And and so, you know, it and and

56:54

all of that helped form

56:56

me in the

56:58

senate being an advocate

57:01

for LGBTQ rights, a

57:03

sponsor of the Equality Act,

57:05

so engaged in civil

57:07

rights and civil liberties and giving, you know, David, I was

57:09

the I think the in fact, I

57:12

know I was the

57:14

only voice from

57:16

the South. on the Senate floor the deep south that talked

57:18

about Black Lives Matter on the floor of the

57:20

United States Senate, and it was after we did a

57:22

reading of Martin Luther King's letter from

57:24

a Birmingham

57:26

jail. So you get informed by a lot of things, including sometimes your

57:28

children? You were drafted by

57:30

the president to be a

57:32

Sherpa for now justice Katangi

57:36

Brown

57:36

Jackson. Talk about that experience.

57:38

I mean, I I'm thinking about the

57:41

arc of your life. and to

57:43

be the to shepherd

57:46

this nomination of

57:49

the African American woman to sit on

57:52

the supreme court.

57:54

Tell tell me

57:55

about what that

57:56

that experience meant to you

57:58

and tell me about her? Yeah.

57:59

No. It was an it it really was

58:02

an amazing experience in two

58:04

nights before. the president

58:06

nominated her. I was on I

58:08

was at the church. We did an event

58:10

in honor of a of a

58:13

a late lawyer named Chuck Morgan who gave an

58:15

unprecedented speech after the bombing.

58:18

And I'm sitting up there

58:20

where the the, you know,

58:22

the pulpit is they had moved it out for this

58:24

panel that we were having. And there was

58:26

a big crowd there

58:28

and and including one of my

58:30

panelist was the sister of one of the

58:32

girls, now Lisa McNear,

58:34

whose sister Denise died. And

58:36

it just really

58:38

struck me about where

58:39

I had been, and you had this

58:41

what I

58:41

would call the son of the South. It

58:44

not only kind of brought justice to those

58:46

families end

58:48

of and really to bring justice a little bit for Birmingham and

58:50

let people look at Birmingham and Alabama in

58:52

a little bit different way. And then

58:55

they they did that again when I got elected in twenty

58:58

seventeen. And here I was about

59:00

whoever the nominee was gonna be

59:02

to to to be the

59:04

Sharpe four the first African American female was just

59:06

overwhelming. I mean, it was You

59:08

know, I I told your

59:10

wife Louise

59:12

last night when we were at

59:14

dinner that one of the most memorable

59:16

things I recall from the two thousand eight

59:18

campaign was being at the convention

59:20

in Denver and I was standing next to another son of

59:22

Alabama. Robert Gibbs, the -- Yeah. --

59:24

press secretary

59:25

who was very close to

59:27

senator Obama travel with him and so on. And

59:30

Robert's a very hard case.

59:32

Right? But I look

59:34

over when Senator Obama's

59:36

giving his acceptance speech, and I see

59:38

tears rolling down

59:40

Robert's face. And I knew what those tears

59:42

meant. I knew that he they were tears that

59:44

were born of his memory and

59:47

the history of where he came from.

59:49

Yeah. And he knew what this

59:51

meant. And David, III wanna tell you a quick

59:54

story about

59:54

election night because I

59:56

had a number of candidates that

59:59

was following on, like, tonight in Birmingham, but I ended

1:00:01

up going over to bowel wall auditorium.

1:00:03

That's where they were having the

1:00:05

victory party for Obama. Bowlowl

1:00:08

auditorium was the site of the Dixie krat

1:00:10

convention in nineteen forty eight.

1:00:12

It was the site of where Nat King Cole

1:00:14

got beat up just for to come

1:00:16

to Birmingham. but they were having

1:00:18

it there. And I I

1:00:20

stayed through a little bit of the the the

1:00:22

acceptance speech, and I'm walking out and I going

1:00:24

across the street to go to

1:00:26

another event. And I passed an

1:00:28

older white gentleman coming

1:00:30

across toward the party. And

1:00:34

I stopped and we talked for a minute and we talked about

1:00:36

what a great night it was and how excited

1:00:38

everybody was. And I walk a few walk

1:00:40

box I mean, a few steps away and I

1:00:42

look back and it dawned on me that

1:00:44

the man I was talking to was Billy Joe Camp, who was George Wallace's

1:00:46

press secretary -- Mhmm. -- and he was

1:00:50

going over to the

1:00:52

Obama victory party. And just

1:00:54

think about that and the image of that. And

1:00:56

so those kind of things

1:00:58

mean so much It meant so

1:01:00

much to I was in Denver with

1:01:02

my son at the

1:01:04

time at that

1:01:06

acceptance speech. which was on the anniversary of the Martin

1:01:08

Luther King speech -- At the Lincoln Memorial. --

1:01:10

at the Lincoln Memorial. And

1:01:12

then to be there

1:01:14

and to to really get

1:01:16

to know justice, Jackson, then judge Jackson, and understand her

1:01:18

and I've told folks,

1:01:20

she became such a inspirational

1:01:24

figure around the country.

1:01:26

It wasn't just the nomination. The

1:01:28

way she handled herself, the

1:01:30

grace, the dignity, the way she

1:01:32

presented herself, almost always

1:01:34

with a smile on her face.

1:01:36

She really truly became an inspiration. Some

1:01:38

of the letters and cards that she

1:01:40

shared with us from around the country were just

1:01:43

remarkable, and it just was a

1:01:45

it was a it was a great thing

1:01:47

for me to have been involved,

1:01:49

and I'm so appreciative of

1:01:51

the president, and White House counsel,

1:01:53

Dana Ramos, who I'm hoping to have here with me

1:01:55

-- Oh, thank you for that.

1:01:58

-- sometime. Yeah. Well, I just hope there aren't

1:01:59

days in the months and years to come

1:02:02

where justice Jackson says, what did

1:02:04

Jones get

1:02:06

me in? So Doug Jones, thank you for your

1:02:08

service. Thank you for being a fellow at the

1:02:10

University of Chicago Institute of Politics,

1:02:12

and thanks spending

1:02:14

time. Yeah. Thank you, David. It's an honor for me to be here. Thanks.

1:02:18

Thank you

1:02:20

for listening to the X Files.

1:02:22

brought to you by the University of

1:02:24

Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN Audio. The executive

1:02:27

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1:02:30

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