0:00

WON TO THE BEAT, IMR EMOL, WHERE WE HAVE THIS

0:02

BREAKING NEWS ON LEGAL ACTION HITTING

0:04

TRUMP. NEWSWOMAN:

0:07

NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL TISHIA JAMES

0:09

TODAY SUSING DONALD TRUMP THREE OF HIS

0:11

CHILDREN AND HIS ENTIRE COMPANY.

0:13

THIS IS NEW. IT BUILD ON THINGS YOU HEARD

0:15

ABOUT, BUT IT IS A COMMANATION. of this

0:18

investigation, she has so doggedly

0:20

pursued. We're gonna get into it. With our

0:22

experts, let me tell you. James is

0:24

saying Trump has committed, quote, staggering

0:26

fraud that he lied about the value of

0:29

his properties, that he lied to the authorities, that

0:31

he lied in financial statements, that he did it for

0:33

over a decade, and that he furnished and

0:35

this matters for the law, false information to

0:37

banks, insurance companies, as well as

0:39

state authorities. And then

0:41

he would try to get favorable loans

0:44

AND SHEAT ON HIS TAXES. Reporter:

0:46

PADDEN OF FRAUD AND DISCEPTION

0:49

THAT WAS USED BY MR. TRUMP OF THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION

0:51

FOR THEIR OWN FINANCIAL BENEFIT IS

0:53

A founding. Claiming you have money

0:55

that you do not have does

0:58

not amount to the art of the deal.

1:00

It's

1:02

the art of the steel.

1:05

And

1:05

there cannot be different rules for different people

1:07

in this country or in this state.

1:11

and former presidents are no different.

1:14

No one is

1:15

above the law. That

1:17

is the statement That is

1:19

the attorney general who has proven so

1:21

aggressive in so many cases without

1:23

fear of favor. She's pursued people in both

1:25

parties. And while the

1:28

nature of her work means that some of this

1:30

is vaguely familiar, especially to

1:32

people in New York and people who follow

1:34

legal news. But really around the country, you might say,

1:37

didn't I hear about this before? Haven't I heard

1:39

about the asset valuation? Haven't I heard about?

1:41

Basically, that he's under investigation. Well,

1:44

everything just changed with this case.

1:46

It is the culmination. It is a bigger

1:48

legal problem for him than he's ever had before

1:51

in the attorney general's office And

1:53

this really first of a kind action

1:55

today was rocketing

1:56

across the

1:58

world of news.

1:59

We are following

2:01

unprecedented breaking news involving

2:03

former president Donald Trump. The New York

2:05

Attorney General just hit Donald Trump with

2:07

a two hundred and fifty a million dollar

2:09

lawsuit.

2:10

New York's attorney general, Leticia

2:12

James, alleging widespread business

2:14

fraud. Filing

2:14

a lawsuit against former president

2:17

Donald Trump Donald Trump, Donald Trump Junior,

2:19

Ivanka Trump, and Eric Trump

2:21

documents don't lie, and documents

2:23

don't forget.

2:23

This is tough tough stuff for the for

2:25

the Trump organization. There's no question.

2:28

This is a dark day for them. Dark

2:30

and tough for them because of the exhaustive

2:32

receipts. The lawsuit has over two

2:34

hundred fraudulent actions

2:36

or misleading valuations, the penalties

2:39

could go up to quarter billion Trump and his children

2:41

could be barred from doing business, not only

2:43

at the Trump board, but from readily running

2:45

any New York company. That's one of the

2:48

punishments that James is seeking

2:50

the family and organization could also not

2:52

be allowed to get money anymore,

2:54

to get liquidity, to get bank

2:56

funding in New York, a big deal.

2:59

Trump has always said he's a dealmaker, and

3:01

let's be clear. He convinced a

3:03

lot of people with under standable props,

3:06

actions, funds, support from

3:08

the banks, at times the

3:11

New York legal, and

3:13

governmental really largely looking

3:15

the other way. And by the way, that includes

3:17

a lot of registered Democrats in New York who

3:19

fill out some of these offices. So a

3:21

lot of people in America thought, well,

3:23

he is this rich, and he must be somewhat good

3:26

at business. So this hits him legally.

3:28

It also hits the core promise

3:30

and brand he's ever made, what

3:32

you see on the front of the buildings. It

3:35

also touches on his most high profile properties.

3:38

Trump

3:38

Tower, forty

3:39

Wall Street in Manhattan, where James says

3:42

he doubled the valuation. That's

3:44

not a rounding error. CLAMING SOMETHING THAT

3:46

WAS WORTH. two hundred MILLION SHOULD BE five thirty

3:48

MILLION. seven WHICH

3:50

IS A UP STATE PROPERTY. TRUMP

3:52

SAID two fifty MILLION was

3:54

ten times more than what James thought

3:57

were

3:57

comparable properties Mar a Lago. Trump

3:59

said seven

3:59

thirty nine million according to James new

4:02

case. She

4:02

says it's worth No

4:04

shade, no disrespect. It's

4:07

not worth seven hundred and thirty nine million no

4:09

matter how large it is or five

4:11

hundred million or two hundred

4:13

million or maybe maybe a hundred million. James

4:15

says and there'll be a court process to

4:17

find out whether she's more truthful or

4:19

he is, but she says it's just seventy five

4:21

million. or Trump Tower, which I mentioned,

4:24

Trump said eight hundred million. James

4:26

says that should actually be factually valued

4:28

around two hundred million.

4:30

Now, why

4:30

do we have to go through each of them? You might

4:33

be watching at home and say, Ari, I think

4:35

I knew Donald Trump lied about his properties.

4:38

Why is that breaking news? Well,

4:40

the answer is, this is not about what

4:42

you kind of thought or assumed or what was

4:44

obvious from his bluster. and it's not

4:46

about whether he ever told fables

4:48

on the apprentice, which was carried on our

4:50

sister channel NBC, by the way, full disclosure.

4:52

you're allowed to go on entertainment programs

4:54

and tell all kinds of stories. This is

4:56

about whether he lied to the government, lied

4:58

to the authorities, lied to the banks,

5:01

lied to the IRS in ways that meant

5:04

you had to pick up the tab and you,

5:06

the honest taxpayer, if you are paying

5:08

your taxes, you pick

5:10

up the tab while he runs out on the

5:12

bill and then claims to be a billionaire.

5:14

So where do we go from here? Well, we have the experts

5:16

to walk us through it. I'll tell you the most important thing

5:18

we're gonna get to in more depth, which is the criminal

5:21

referrals. We'll hit that later this hour. But right

5:23

now, we have Professor Melissa Murray from

5:25

NYU law. and from a Watergate prosecutor Nick

5:27

Ackerman. Professor, you

5:30

know, we try to keep it clear around here. I

5:32

mentioned that a lot of people

5:34

are familiar with the idea

5:36

that Trump doesn't always tell the truth, and

5:39

that at times that's legal. What's

5:41

different here you know, you can hold

5:43

this up this way or you can hold it this way. It's

5:45

it's really quite a voluminous

5:48

case is documenting

5:50

the ways that she says lies or illegal.

5:53

How strong is this new case? Donald Berwick:

5:55

I think this is a really strong

5:57

case going forward. It's almost two hundred and

5:59

twenty

5:59

pages and it details in really granular

6:02

tail the degree to which the Trump

6:05

organization over inflated the

6:07

value of almost all of its properties

6:09

in its New York holdings in order

6:11

to secure

6:11

more favorable loan policies,

6:14

more favorable loan terms, and also

6:16

to take

6:16

advantage of tax breaks,

6:18

for example, for conservation easements

6:20

by being able to write off the difference

6:22

between the alleged value of the property

6:25

and what would

6:25

be donated because they didn't actually

6:27

recoup that value by selling

6:29

it because of the conservation easement.

6:31

So it is actually staggering

6:33

how much is here, and

6:35

she's done a very careful job meticulously

6:38

organizing and documenting all

6:40

of this. One thing I did notice here

6:42

is that she also

6:43

SO NOTES THAT A

6:45

NUMBER OF CRIMINAL LAWS MIGHT

6:47

HAVE BEEN BROKE

6:47

AND SUGGESTING THAT THIS IS NOT JUST

6:50

GOING TO BE about civil

6:52

liability, but that there may be possible

6:53

criminal exposure down the

6:56

line as well.

6:56

Yeah, and I mentioned that too because that's

6:58

so in THING AND WE'LL GET TO THAT. HERE'S A LITTLE

7:00

MORE WHAT SHE SAID TODAY.

7:01

Adrienne:

7:03

WHITE CALLER FINANCIAL CRIME IS NOT A

7:06

VICTIMLESS CRIME. everyday people

7:08

cannot lie to a bank about

7:09

how much money they have in order to get a favorable

7:11

loan to buy a home or

7:13

to send their kid to college.

7:16

And if

7:16

they did, the government

7:18

would throw the book at them. Why

7:21

should this be any different? Nick,

7:25

but she's absolutely right.

7:27

And this case, I mean,

7:29

actually is just staggering

7:31

in terms of what Donald Trump is facing.

7:34

And the reason is because

7:36

he wound up taking the

7:39

fifth amendment to every single

7:41

question it asked of him. If you go through that

7:43

complaint, I guarantee you

7:45

that he was asked about each

7:47

one of those allegations. And

7:49

he basically said, I refused

7:51

to answer on the ground that

7:53

a truthful answer would

7:55

tend to incriminate him. That

7:57

can be used against him in

7:59

the

7:59

court. I mean, I don't see how

8:02

Anyway,

8:02

he gets out of this. I mean, he

8:04

he is backed into a corner.

8:06

And if I were the AG's

8:09

office, I wouldn't even make a deal with him at

8:11

this point unless he's willing to give up everything.

8:13

You mentioned that here we have in two thousand seven,

8:15

the way he when he was forced to

8:17

testify the deposition he would sometimes,

8:20

He didn't run from everything. But he would say,

8:22

quote, my net worth

8:23

fluctuates. And it

8:25

goes up and down with markets

8:27

and attitudes and feelings, even my

8:29

own feelings. What

8:31

does it tell you that James so

8:34

methodically pursued this and

8:36

got him to sit down, held him

8:37

in contempt, and then got him too, which you

8:39

can use in a civil case. Duck

8:42

and she says that shows something. Well, I mean,

8:44

she was very dogged on this. I mean, she did

8:46

not give up she

8:48

took each one of these. If you look through this

8:51

huge complaint, I mean, there are

8:53

very specific allegations. They've got

8:55

them in meetings. They've got them being

8:57

hold certain things by various people. He's

9:00

involved as the guy, the capo

9:02

day two d capo of the organization

9:04

that runs everything. And

9:06

I guarantee you again, he was

9:08

asked about each one of these. And each

9:10

one of these, he took the

9:12

fifth that really

9:14

puts him in the soup and

9:17

kind of ends the case. I mean, I just

9:19

don't see where he goes with this.

9:21

I I think that if these

9:23

are the allegations they've got and these

9:25

are the allegations they questioned

9:27

about and he took the fifth amendment on

9:29

each and every one of these He's

9:31

looking at the two fifty million

9:33

dollars he's looking at being

9:35

barred from doing business in New York state. He's

9:37

looking at having a monitor put in

9:39

charge of all of his companies. His

9:42

children are gonna be barred.

9:44

I mean, there's nothing

9:46

good in this for him at all.

9:48

and it certainly doesn't come at

9:50

a great time with the midterms

9:52

coming up. I mean, it's just another

9:54

one of these Trump's situation that's

9:57

out in the open in addition to

9:59

the classified

9:59

information, in addition to January

10:02

six, that is going to

10:04

put the focus on Donald

10:06

Trump going up to the midterms,

10:08

which is exactly what the Republicans

10:10

don't want. yeah, you mentioned that timing. And of

10:12

course, Professor, the

10:14

timing is partly delayed because

10:16

of Donald Trump's many tactics. He

10:19

gave his response today. He also

10:21

attacked her. He can give whatever

10:23

response he wants. He's also tried to say it's a witch on

10:25

its political. I'm curious

10:27

what you think of that on the

10:29

merits. There there can

10:31

be prosecutors are calling the question and not

10:33

above approach, but it's interesting with James

10:35

because with regard to politics

10:37

and and and the different parties,

10:39

you know, we have a headline to remind folks if you

10:41

if you followed the case of a

10:43

very popular, a one time, very popular

10:45

Democrat. If you go back far enough,

10:47

Andrew Cuomo, she

10:49

pursued that case just as she's

10:51

taken on Trump. SHE'S

10:53

REALLY BEEN THE

10:56

MODEL OF A PROSECUTOR HERE. SHE'S TAKEN

10:58

ON PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISLE PEOPLE WHO

11:00

SUPPORTED HER OWN CANDIDACY AND

11:02

SHE'S REALLY not been

11:04

bound by any particular ideological

11:06

constraint. She's really pursued the law

11:08

here. And again, she's been

11:10

very careful. This isn't a

11:12

criminal execution, it's a civil

11:14

suit, which means

11:14

that the standard of proof is

11:16

going to be lower than reasonable doubt's going

11:18

to be likely preponderance of the evidence, which

11:20

is considerably lower, easier to PRUVE

11:23

FOR THE GOVERNMENT AND IT MEANS HE MAY NOT

11:25

BE GOING TO JAIL BUT AS Nick SAYS

11:27

HE'S

11:27

BLOBLEBRUALLY GOING TO BE DISGRORGING

11:29

BAST AMOUNTS OF HIS current

11:31

property and he's going to be barred

11:32

from doing business in the state of New

11:34

York essentially if you read the terms of this complaint

11:37

and if a judge and jury agree that

11:39

this is the appropriate remedy. So She's really

11:41

done a good job sewing

11:43

this up, making her case, and making sure

11:45

that she is above the fray. He can call

11:47

this a witch hunt, he can call her a witch.

11:49

but he can't say she's wrong on this.

11:51

Right. And it's ultimately gonna be the judge

11:53

that's gonna have to adjudicate. Did she

11:55

ask for too much? Did she go too far?

11:57

Do

11:57

they think it's an overreach? Or is there a strong

11:59

case here? And one thing that's probably not gonna

12:01

move that judge is name

12:04

calling, but much more

12:06

question of. If you have a defense, mister Trump, and you

12:08

didn't want to offer it in the

12:10

deposition, can you offer it now? Why

12:12

are these things being valued at at

12:14

Quadruple? QUENT TOPLE THE RATE. WHY IS

12:16

THERE EVIDENCE THAT YOU MISLEAD THE GOVERNMENT

12:18

AND WHY SHOULD OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE LESS MONEY THAN YOU

12:20

PICK UP YOUR TAB? ALL FAIR QUESTIONS.

12:22

PROFESSOR Murray, Nick Ackerman on a big

12:24

news night. Thanks to both of you for kicking this

12:26

off. We are going to turn to a special

12:28

report on how we got here and our experts,

12:30

and as I mentioned, the thing rattling Trump

12:32

most tonight, the criminal referrals. There's

12:34

two of them in here. We haven't gotten to that

12:36

in-depth yet. We're back in just sixty

12:38

seconds.

12:41

Whether it's

12:41

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12:44

the challenges of racial injustice,

12:45

or the threat to American democracy,

12:48

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12:50

at MSNBC Daily, written

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12:54

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12:57

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12:59

along with a growing list of experts

13:01

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13:02

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13:04

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13:08

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13:11

MSNBC's Alibaba on

13:14

journalism. There are two to this

13:16

job as a journalist. The first is to bear

13:18

witness to what's happening. The second is

13:20

to hold power to account. We've got a

13:22

power gap, a wealth gap, and more than

13:24

ever a communications gap. My work is to

13:26

facilitate a dialogue. All of us are

13:28

better off when we're around people with different

13:30

backgrounds and perspectives, and the only

13:32

way we effectively speak

13:34

truth to power is by truly understanding all

13:36

sides of an argument. FELSIAM

13:38

weakens at eight AM eastern on

13:40

MSNBC.

13:44

WELCOME BACK ON THIS HUGE LEGAL NEWS

13:46

DAY FOR DONALD TRUMP AND HIS COMPANIES WITH THE

13:48

TOP FINANCIAL OFFICER YOU MAY RECALL HAD ALREADY

13:50

BEEN CONVICTED AND NOW? He

13:52

and other

13:53

executives from the company. And Trump and his

13:55

children stand accused by the attorney general

13:57

of fraud lies, tax

13:58

crimes, and more. The

14:00

AG is using her power to also refer

14:02

Trump for possible prosecution by the Fed,

14:04

sending new cases to the southern

14:06

district of New York and the IRS.

14:09

We have more on that later in the broadcast.

14:11

Right now though, our special report

14:13

will explore how we got here

14:15

because it matters. James says her evidence

14:17

shows the Trump business boiled down

14:19

to a fraud. The Trump

14:21

has always insisted that it was not

14:23

that. but rather a golden

14:25

brand built as a family

14:27

business. I'm

14:28

the largest real estate developer

14:30

in New York. My company's bigger than it

14:32

ever was. It's stronger than it ever was.

14:34

It is a family brand. We have a great

14:37

family dynamic. I think that's probably

14:39

the most incredible thing about the Trump

14:41

organization. and we really, really work well

14:43

together. My primary job is making sure

14:45

not to kill the Golden Goose, which is the brand and

14:47

the brand that he's created over such a long period

14:49

of time. everyone

14:50

you just saw is accused in

14:52

this new case, which seeks to use government

14:54

power to ban them not only from running the

14:56

Trump organization, or funding

14:58

it with more loans, but to ban them from

15:00

doing that with any companies

15:02

in New York. Authorities

15:03

have already made some progress here. Take

15:06

Trump's top money, man. He's already

15:08

barred from a range of business activity because

15:10

he is now a convicted felon,

15:12

Alan Weiselberg, facing hard

15:14

time at Rykers, There he was on

15:16

hisurb walk hand cuffed after

15:18

pleading guilty. When Donald

15:19

Trump denies wrongdoing and

15:21

says today this is quote, another witch hunt,

15:23

like the

15:24

Mueller probe, and he's

15:26

entitled to defend himself. He'll get his day

15:28

in court. The truth

15:29

is that some of the roots of today's legal

15:31

move did

15:32

begin during that Mueller probe

15:34

because it was that legal pressure,

15:37

which turned Michael Cohen from an

15:39

almost comically extreme Trump

15:41

defender to a cooperating star witness.

15:44

saying Trump's whole business

15:46

was not about branding, not about

15:48

innovation, but

15:49

about lying to banks and insurers and the

15:52

government to rip off the

15:54

rip off enough money to appear

15:56

more

15:56

profitable than the business was.

15:59

I know mister Trump.

16:02

I stood by him shoulder to

16:04

shoulder for the past decade. Did

16:05

the president ever provide inflated

16:08

assets to an insurance company?

16:11

Yes.

16:11

Do you

16:11

think we need to review his financial

16:14

statements and his tax returns in order

16:16

to compare them?

16:17

Yes. I'm obviously very loyal and very

16:19

dedicated to mister Trump. I think he's

16:21

gonna be a great president to

16:23

your knowledge. did

16:24

the president or his company

16:27

ever inflate assets

16:29

or revenues? Yes.

16:31

And was that

16:34

done with the president's knowledge or

16:36

direction? Everything was

16:38

done with the knowledge and at the

16:40

direction of mister Trump.

16:42

Now that shift

16:43

did grow out of that legal

16:45

pressure on Cohen, but that history is

16:47

not a defense for Trump tonight. If the authorities

16:49

show up to check out a

16:51

nine eleven nine eleven call about

16:53

a burglary. And they find

16:56

evidence of other

16:57

crimes.

16:58

they don't just ignore it because it's

17:00

not why they showed up. It's their job to

17:02

pursue it. So let

17:03

me remind you tonight. We checked When

17:07

Cohen said under oath, all

17:09

the fraud was directed by Trump

17:12

and said it in public where everyone

17:14

could hear. The

17:14

authorities with jurisdiction over that

17:17

company have a duty to investigate. And that's

17:19

what the AG did within

17:22

one month of the you saw. In

17:24

March twenty nineteen, she began this

17:26

probe, culminating in today's two

17:28

twenty page filing, which

17:30

wages a battle against Trump's

17:32

now infamous tactics. You

17:34

know about this? He does

17:36

things to limit his legal exposure.

17:38

EVOIDING

17:38

EMAIL, DESTROYING RECORDS, USING LAWYERS FOR DURY

17:40

WORK TO LIMIT THE EVIDENCE AGAINST HIM.

17:43

INDEED, THIS NEW CASE PICKS UP

17:45

AT A TIME WHEN five

17:47

Trump lawyers have faced legal

17:49

trouble because of his actions. John

17:51

Eastman, the coup plotter you see right there,

17:53

plus Cohen, Clark Giuliani, and

17:55

a new lawyer under scrutiny in the classified documents case.

17:58

So this is a thing

17:58

he does, and

18:00

and prosecutors are

18:01

very aware of it now. So see what

18:03

James does here. In this new

18:05

case today, she lays out a roadmap

18:07

for how to win or

18:09

possibly indict Trump if they

18:11

take the referrals by

18:13

documenting evidence that directly implicates

18:16

Trump and

18:16

deals with how much he uses lawyers

18:18

and cutouts. So she has the receipts

18:20

here that at employees. were

18:22

acting at mister Trump's

18:23

direction. Proof that

18:26

Trump knew his acts were

18:28

improper personally employing

18:30

deceptive schemes, personally pushing

18:32

to increase the value

18:34

of

18:34

things. Other examples you see on

18:37

the screen. Now

18:39

it's not personal and the law is not supposed to

18:41

be, but James is saying she

18:42

has the receipts that Trump personally

18:45

pushed and directed what she calls

18:47

a fraud. So

18:49

that is a lie tonight.

18:51

Now, is there a

18:52

but?

18:54

yeah Yes. In

18:55

fairness to Trump, The legal history of

18:57

how we got here also includes another

18:59

probe into the same stuff, which

19:01

did not determine that it

19:03

had enough evidence to charge him.

19:06

That was actually a super interesting part of today's presentation

19:08

if you were watching closely.

19:10

For years, the AG's office and the

19:12

Manhattan DA have been talking up their

19:15

joint probe

19:15

into these same activities, this alleged fraud,

19:18

and we know they

19:19

work together. Today, James

19:21

largely focused on her findings.

19:24

and her referral to the feds. She

19:26

almost completely alighted

19:29

any reference to the open

19:31

Manhattan DA probe led by Alvin

19:34

Brack. That is the probe which got the conviction of

19:36

the CFO. But it's also the

19:37

probe that reviewed a lot of evidence and did

19:40

not indict Trump when it had the

19:42

chance. Instead, when

19:44

some prosecutors in that office presented the evidence

19:46

that they thought was chargeable, Brad

19:48

said no. He said

19:49

you didn't see a strong enough case. then

19:51

some of those prosecutors resigned over it. You may recall

19:53

we reported on that. Today, that

19:55

same DA says their probe is active.

19:59

So

19:59

the DA made progress and

19:59

added to the evidence here, but he did

20:02

stop short of making a criminal case against

20:04

Trump. And by the

20:06

way, if you read between the lines of this

20:08

whole thing, and there are many

20:10

lines. It seems

20:11

although she didn't

20:13

say it exactly, it seems to me

20:15

as a reporter that James thinks

20:18

The criminal

20:18

case is valid, the one that the DA

20:20

passed on. Now if Trump

20:22

loses James case, the penalties are

20:24

huge as we have touched on tonight.

20:26

Being functionally run out of doing business in

20:28

New York, which is the financial capital

20:30

of America, James also asking the

20:32

courts to bar all of the people here.

20:34

Trump has killed on the executives from running

20:36

these companies or getting funding,

20:39

and

20:39

then going through the case alleged how they

20:41

lied about Trump Tower. and

20:43

Mar a Lago, the site of

20:45

that other federal probe right now, and

20:48

lied

20:48

about seven springs at Upstate New York

20:51

State, which Eric Trump has

20:53

talked out for a long time. This is

20:55

a place

20:56

that's really special to myself. It's really special to

20:58

my brother, my father, really the

21:00

whole family, and it is really our

21:02

compound and I've spent so much of my life

21:04

here. It's a special place for me and one that I'll

21:06

always remember and one that I'll always be very

21:09

close to. Special is fine.

21:10

That's an opinion. Time

21:12

lapse photography is fine. That's a way

21:14

that maybe the property

21:17

looks better.

21:18

But this new case alleges that Trump

21:20

hid and concealed information

21:23

to inflate its value that Eric

21:25

Trump who

21:25

found it also special also felt the

21:27

business

21:27

need to, quote, fraudulently increase

21:30

the value of the tax

21:32

savings they were trying to get. Now

21:35

many people ask why this takes so long. I have

21:37

people come up to me literally in the street.

21:39

Okay, Ari, like years and years,

21:40

what's taking so long? Well,

21:43

the truth is there

21:44

can be several answers to that question. Tonight's

21:47

news adds a version of an

21:49

answer. James has been methodically

21:51

investigating and putting on their own

21:53

and checking their

21:53

stories. And then clashing

21:56

with those witnesses who spent months

21:58

fighting her, like Trump himself, who

22:00

remember he claimed to talk tough and didn't wanna talk

22:02

at all, that makes him

22:04

look bad. Legally, even if he's

22:06

availing himself of his rights against

22:09

getting in more criminal trouble. But

22:11

the idea that he never wanted to

22:14

defend himself and talk about it,

22:16

that as Trevor Noah pointed out, in

22:18

his case looks suspicious. Trump

22:21

decided not

22:24

to

22:24

talk. I mean,

22:26

now we know something shady is going on.

22:29

Right? Look, because when has Donald Trump ever

22:31

refused to talk? We can't get the

22:33

man to stop talking. Donald Trump not talking

22:35

is like tennis or taking the bus. That's not a

22:37

thing. Not

22:39

a thing. Now

22:41

Trump

22:41

reportedly plead the fifth over

22:43

four hundred times in the

22:45

testimony in the new case I'm telling you

22:47

about. Now in a civil case, pleading the

22:49

fifth can be cited as evidence. Everyone,

22:52

including

22:52

Donald Trump, has the right not to be

22:54

forced to incriminate themselves and

22:56

go to jail. That's what the fifth is for. Incriminate

22:59

yourself in criminal cases.

23:02

But that doesn't

23:02

mean that You

23:05

can then use that to avoid all other

23:07

legal issues. Press it on. That's

23:09

very clear, so it can be civil evidence. And James

23:12

showed an example of that today. Noting Trump led

23:14

the fifth repeatedly said,

23:16

quote, same answer when asked about

23:18

lying about these properties. She

23:21

also

23:21

uses the evidence that she

23:23

gathered on Trump's three oldest children,

23:25

also named in this case who

23:27

are officers of the company of Anka

23:29

and Don junior, testified

23:30

this summer. Eric Trump was called back in

23:32

twenty twenty and the filing references also

23:35

Alan Weiselberg who's now a felon

23:38

saying he conceded to improperly

23:40

inflating apartment values and then

23:42

invoked the fifth on other lines

23:44

of

23:44

questioning. Check this

23:47

out. Weiselberg

23:48

asked if the value was overstated by

23:50

a factor of three, he

23:52

replies, I didn't do the math. One

23:55

third, I would agree with that.

23:57

they follow-up.

23:58

So on the order of a

23:59

two hundred million dollar

24:03

overstatement give or take, and

24:05

Weiselberg confirms, give or take.

24:08

So the now

24:09

convicted felon who was

24:11

in charge of

24:11

the money a Trump board admits

24:14

The change here,

24:17

what James says is fraud, was

24:19

on the order of two hundred million dollars on

24:21

just that one asset.

24:23

And again,

24:23

let's be clear. If mister

24:25

Weisselberg or these Trump officials were involved

24:27

in this for only one asset you wouldn't have

24:29

a case and you certainly wouldn't have two

24:32

hundred pages. What you have here, at

24:34

least according to Patricia James, his

24:36

office and investigation, is a

24:38

pattern and a practice of a

24:40

criminal organization. That's not my job

24:42

to be a judge and jury here. As I've

24:44

emphasized to you, there are some things that can

24:46

also go in Trump's favor, especially at the

24:48

criminal level I mentioned with

24:50

the DA. and his defenses will come out

24:52

and will cover them. But right now, as

24:54

an opening shot in a new case that

24:56

wants to run him out of business in

24:58

New York, Well,

24:59

this is a two by four. How do we make

25:01

sense

25:01

of it? because there's a lot of numbers that are

25:03

hard to understand what

25:06

we

25:06

have. one

25:07

of the reporters at the center of all of this New York Times business

25:10

investigations editor David Enrick, after the

25:12

break.

25:15

Hey, every

25:16

ready. It's Savannah got three. And I'm hota copier. We've

25:19

got some

25:19

great news to share. The Today

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Show

25:21

is now available wherever

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25:24

Can you believe that right now? You can get your daily

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subscribe and follow today to

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start listening?

25:46

These days, the news never

25:49

stops. The morning's headlines changed by afternoon,

25:51

and by the end of the day,

25:53

it's all totally different.

25:55

So let's get into it. What's

25:58

happening right now, what it all means for you

25:59

for an hour every day.

26:02

I get it. I know that it can be hard to keep

26:04

up, so let's get started together and

26:06

go from there. Hey, I'm Ali Jackson, and we have a going

26:08

on tonight. Here's the deal. Ali

26:09

Jackson now. Weekdays

26:11

at five PM eastern on NBC

26:14

news now. Are

26:17

you

26:17

concerned that they may send in and die indictment

26:19

your way, your brother's way, your sister's

26:22

way? You know what? I'm

26:23

not Eric because guess what? we've always

26:25

lived amazingly clean lives and believe me if they

26:27

could've, they already would've. Right? I mean,

26:30

that's what they wanted. That was their

26:32

end goal. Eric Trump

26:34

speaking last year, we're joined now by the business

26:36

investigations editor for The New York Times David and Rick

26:38

the author of of the

26:40

damned giant law firms Donald Trump and the

26:43

corruption of justice.

26:46

One of the most

26:48

comprehensively informed guests for exactly this

26:50

story. This is a

26:52

this is a big one. Yeah. What

26:53

jumps out to you in it that you think

26:56

is either significant or

26:58

new?

26:58

the new Well, it's

26:59

just surprising to me to see in

27:01

such vivid detail the lengths

27:04

to which Trump went. to

27:07

allegedly mislead the people that he was in business

27:09

with. And that really should not come as a

27:11

surprise after all of the reporting that's out there and

27:13

just what we've all seen firsthand, but

27:15

I've been covering this stuff for a long

27:17

time, and I was even surprised by just

27:20

how clear some of this stuff seems.

27:22

Obviously, we have not heard a full defense

27:24

from Trump's fuel.

27:26

But to see the way that

27:28

Trump himself was directly involved

27:30

allegedly in essentially

27:33

overstating asset values and things like that to win favor

27:35

with banks like Deutsche Bank. It just

27:37

it it confirms a lot of what we already knew, but it's

27:39

very it was surprising to me at least to see this

27:41

in the open. Would you say James got a hold of things

27:44

that even exhaust of

27:46

investigative reporters have not yet? Oh, absolutely.

27:48

I mean, there's I've been covering Deutsche Bank

27:50

for years and if

27:52

I do say so myself had done a pretty good job of getting

27:54

inside the bank. But I and other

27:56

journalists lack subpoena power. It sounds like

27:58

Deutsche Bank has been extensively

27:59

cooperating with her office. for

28:01

years, and we now have a

28:03

much fuller accounting of not only what the bank

28:05

was thinking, but the information that Trump and

28:08

his lieutenants Yeah. We're providing. Have you

28:10

have you thought about asking your editors for

28:12

subpoena power? I've I I ask all

28:14

the time to make it look to me funny. Yeah.

28:16

I understand why. So this

28:18

goes to the point that

28:20

she got new stuff. When you say

28:22

some of it's surprising, again, I

28:24

mentioned we hear from many people in the nation

28:26

who say, well, they're

28:28

onto Trump, there's a

28:29

lot of cons, and none of

28:32

it's surprising. Do you mean

28:34

specifically not that

28:36

he might break a rule, but it's

28:38

surprising

28:38

that she actually seems to have caught

28:41

him being sneaky

28:42

and getting busted with his

28:44

fingerprints in ways that he's

28:46

often evaded before Yeah. It's the fingerprint, I think,

28:48

that are surprising to me. And there Trump

28:50

has been just masterful over

28:52

the years and kind of maintaining at

28:54

least some plausible liability. And if

28:57

what she lays out in this complaint

28:59

today is true, his fingerprints are all

29:01

over this in a way that he seems to have violated a

29:03

lot of his kind of cardinal rules over the

29:05

years, which is to keep some distance. Have

29:07

people Well, we have this on the screen. Take a look because

29:09

we we showed this, but you you've got so much

29:11

background. This is just of

29:13

the times where she again,

29:15

these are not tweets, these are not

29:16

opinions, this is a

29:19

filing in court where she says

29:21

she can back up

29:22

personally, specifically new,

29:26

instructed. What do

29:26

you see here on the screen? Well,

29:28

it's clear that Trump is all over this. Right?

29:30

This is not something what I had heard from my

29:32

own reporting was that Trump would go to Deutsche

29:35

Bank. He or his lawyers would present them

29:37

financial information Deutsche Bank people, which was

29:39

his primary lender, would look at this and kind

29:41

of roll their eyes and know that he was inflating his

29:43

assets. But to see that Trump was

29:45

specifically attesting to

29:47

this stuff, was specifically presenting this

29:49

information and knew explicitly

29:51

what his lieutenants were doing. I mean, that

29:53

if true, I think is really damning and is

29:55

hard for him to overcome. Right.

29:57

Which goes to whether he'll hit these penalties will

29:59

hit them or does he find a

29:59

legal defense? Final question, you

30:01

had several reporters in the press

30:04

conference ask If this

30:06

was

30:06

all going on like this,

30:08

what does that

30:09

tell you about American banking?

30:12

Oh, man. I mean, international banking, all the banks,

30:14

that it's a reckless, dysfunctional

30:16

mess. And there the fact that Deutsche

30:19

Bank knew about and had suspicions about

30:21

him vastly overstating his assets and

30:23

continued to lend him hundreds of millions of dollars,

30:25

and that is not something a

30:27

normal, well functioning, responsible business

30:29

would ever do in a million years. Yeah. And

30:31

that goes to how many

30:33

other linkages there are and whether the

30:35

so called systems sometimes has tried

30:37

to say, oh, well, maybe it's better for everyone at

30:39

the top to not

30:40

get into this kind of stuff. And yet, it's important

30:43

as your reporting has showed. Thanks for

30:45

being here. My pleasure. I appreciate it. David and Rick still

30:47

coming up. We have the sweeping

30:49

nature of this if it hits

30:51

everyone and the attorney

30:53

general wins. Then there's the

30:55

case referred to the feds. I mentioned

30:57

this. Donald Trump has a lot of federal criminal

30:59

problems right now. James

31:01

says he should have two more. We have perfect

31:03

guest on that, the former chief of

31:05

SDNY.

31:06

Next.

31:10

We

31:12

believe the conduct alleged in this action

31:15

also violates federal,

31:17

criminal law. and we

31:18

are referring those criminal violations

31:21

that we've uncovered to the United States attorney

31:23

for the southern

31:24

district of New York

31:26

and the internal revenue

31:28

service. The

31:29

pattern of fraud and deception that was

31:31

used by mister Trump, the Trump organization

31:33

for their own financial benefit is

31:36

astounding. New York

31:37

attorney general James there,

31:40

citing two hundred examples of alleged

31:42

fraud in the new case, referring these

31:44

claims for criminal INVESTIGATION.

31:48

YOU CAN SEE RIGHT HERE, THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF

31:50

NEW YORK AND THE IRS.

31:52

HER COMPLAIN LIST SEVERAL POTENTIAL FEDERAL CLIMBES,

31:54

INCLUDING FALL STATEMENT the financial institution and bank

31:57

fraud typically handled by the

31:59

feds. This is a big deal if they act

32:01

on it and we turn out a ONE WHO

32:03

HAS RECEIVED EXACTLY THESE KIND OF

32:05

REFERALS AND THE HOPPOTATO THEY

32:07

CONPOSE FOR SDNY

32:09

CHIEF, DAVID KELI, ALSO MY FORMER

32:11

BOSS. WELCOME BACK. Aaron, how

32:13

are you? I'm good. It was really

32:15

interesting to see James make her

32:17

case. We've covered that for the actually, the

32:19

bulk of our newscasts. We turned

32:21

now to the case she wants others

32:23

to make. Let's start with SDNY,

32:25

which you used to run.

32:28

What happens when a referral

32:30

comes in, what is

32:30

its significance? What do you think will

32:33

happen here? Well,

32:36

let's start up with the thing you have to understand,

32:38

which I think I'm sure you do, which

32:40

is The

32:42

bar that she has to bring a civil

32:44

case is much lower than the criminal case.

32:46

So -- Right. -- they take it that one. That's

32:48

number one. Number two, what caught me, when

32:51

I saw that her referred this to

32:53

the IRS in the southern district,

32:56

was, well, this is not really

32:58

news. Right? A lot of this stuff has been

33:00

out there in the news already about

33:02

the inflation of his

33:04

worth and and basically how he did

33:07

it. So there's not an awful lot of

33:09

surprises in this complaint. A lot of

33:11

this stuff has been out there. And I

33:13

was thinking she's making a

33:15

referral and while she should. But

33:17

I

33:17

think that, you know, isn't this

33:19

stuff that was already out there that the southern

33:21

district and IRS wanted to jump on it when they have done

33:24

it already. And maybe they

33:25

have and maybe they have

33:28

it. Well, let's let's get into that,

33:30

David. If if you're SDNY

33:32

and you say, yeah, we

33:35

saw cointestify We've

33:37

looked at

33:37

the federal exposure in New York. I mean, is one of the

33:39

ways they would receive a referral is to

33:42

say, you're referring us to something

33:44

we've already looked at or investigated

33:46

and we went no farther. I mean, if they had

33:48

indicted someone, we would know. Yeah. It's

33:50

possible they

33:50

did that, but look, it it

33:52

it And I my guess is they already

33:54

probably have at least scratched the surface

33:56

on this. And what they may be doing is

33:58

to say, well, look,

33:59

really pulled together an awful lot of evidence

34:02

here. So maybe whatever we were

34:04

doing or have been doing,

34:06

we should use this and take another look

34:08

at it. because they

34:10

may have that the AG have may have

34:12

developed a lot of witnesses that weren't

34:14

either available or known to. the feds.

34:16

Like, you know, for example, you you put up on the on the screen some

34:19

snippets from the complaint, which

34:22

really are very important for

34:24

a criminal case because one of the things

34:26

you're gonna need to prove, particularly

34:28

for being a case against somebody like you

34:30

know, the Gryktor and chief, which is to say, you know, he

34:32

knew, he directed. How did

34:34

they prove that? And and the big question

34:36

is, how do you prove that

34:39

in in a criminal case.

34:42

So in that regard, it may be new

34:44

information for the feds. It may be

34:46

something they they decide to

34:48

chew on. It may be something that they decide

34:50

not to. Because they may say,

34:52

look, we already took a look at this. We couldn't

34:54

do it. My guess is, whatever they've done before, they'll

34:56

probably take this this

34:58

referral

34:59

and and

35:01

take a closer look it

35:03

to see whether or not they have witnesses of which

35:05

the feds weren't previously aware. Some evidence,

35:07

some witnesses information

35:12

Who

35:12

knows? Yeah. And they have

35:13

the new Weiselbrook stuff. I mean, we we read off some of

35:15

that. You have the guy who's now

35:17

convicted, involved saying, oh, yeah, we did that to

35:19

the tune of two

35:22

hundred mil. If they look at this and

35:24

decline to to go forward on

35:26

it, would their practice be

35:28

then to tell us

35:30

or

35:30

not? No.

35:32

The practice would

35:33

not be to say anything about

35:35

it. I I would really

35:37

find it interesting if the

35:39

IRS hasn't already dug

35:42

into

35:42

this. Well, let's go. So that's what I wanna ask you. IRS,

35:44

it seems the issue there

35:47

is whatever their history and institutional

35:49

royalties are and that

35:51

the the top changes, but a lot of the

35:53

the middle doesn't. Donald

35:56

Trump has worked over the IRS according to New

35:58

York Times to an

35:59

incredible degree. I mean,

36:01

just unreal how many years he

36:04

didn't pay any taxes. So when the

36:06

IRS gets this referral, it's

36:08

James saying not only

36:10

I mean, this is my read, give us yours, but it

36:12

seems she's not only saying, hey, look what I found

36:14

the Trump did. She's saying, and

36:16

look how you were asleep at the wheel. And it's almost like

36:18

not

36:18

that you need one more special counsel running around, but

36:20

isn't that a tough spot if the IRS says

36:22

that what day more or less

36:25

signed on to or allowed to

36:27

happen forever, which is a legal term, as

36:29

you know. They now are gonna indict on. I mean,

36:31

walk us through that. Well,

36:33

look, I think the

36:34

IRS is gonna dig into it. The IRS has

36:36

a lot of processes and procedures they need to

36:38

go through. I'd be surprised if they're not gonna take

36:40

a really close look at this So

36:43

it's really hard to

36:45

say. And like I said, I'd also be

36:47

surprised if they notwithstanding

36:50

what Trump did to the IRS before,

36:52

I'd be surprised if

36:54

they haven't, nonetheless dug into

36:58

this stuff. Interesting. Not that maybe.

37:00

Burrow, it's gonna be look, the other thing

37:02

too is you figure it this way. You

37:04

know, is the is the Southern District gonna come out

37:06

and say

37:08

that they up investigation? No.

37:10

They're not gonna report the results of the investigation.

37:12

It's possible you can think

37:14

that, you know, a congress

37:18

committee is probably

37:19

gonna call on the IRS and say, okay, what are you doing about this to, you know,

37:21

to the IRS? They're not gonna get an answer from

37:23

the Justice Department. Justice departments went open. We're not gonna

37:25

comment on investigations, but

37:28

the IRS is a little bit a little bit different footing.

37:30

Yeah. It's a huge deal in the way we organize news

37:32

stories. It's sort of like it took us to forty

37:34

five in the hour to get to the

37:36

fact that the former president is facing two federal criminal referrals.

37:38

I mean, yeah, if Obama or

37:40

Bush were facing those right now be

37:44

be a huge deal. There's a kind of a collective overwhelming

37:46

quality to his problems. Mister Kelly,

37:48

I gotta fit in a break. Thank you

37:51

for being here. Sure

37:52

thing. Appreciate you. Coming up later in the

37:54

hour, I told you last night announcement about the January

37:56

sixth report and something I'm doing.

37:59

We heard back from of

38:01

you were gonna viewers down that by the end of

38:03

the hour. But next, the scope of this

38:05

suit, how it hits Trump's children,

38:08

their futures, business political or otherwise, and how

38:10

the right is coping today. That's

38:14

next.

38:17

It's a

38:20

political hit job. She grossly

38:22

overreaches when she tries to drag

38:25

the children into the this. Yes. They've had in the business, but

38:27

this was his personal financial

38:29

statement. His children aren't going

38:31

to know the KAYELS

38:33

OF THAT AND NOR ARE THEY EXPECTED IN THE

38:36

REAL WORLD TO DO THEIR OWN DUE DILIGENCE?

38:38

Adrienne: ATTORNEY GENERAL

38:39

BILL BARR WHO

38:41

serve it, of course, the Trump administration and has been critical

38:43

of some of Trump's legal problems lately,

38:45

going out there on defense against

38:48

attorney general, Leticia James

38:50

new suit, bar also referring to the Trump. Children in saying

38:52

basically leave them alone.

38:54

Meanwhile, James has

38:56

laid out james had laid out exactly

38:58

why she thinks this is collective

39:02

fraud. Today,

39:03

we are filing

39:05

a lawsuit against Donald Trump. for

39:07

violating the law as part of his

39:10

efforts to generate profits for

39:12

himself, his family,

39:15

and his company. He

39:16

did this with the help

39:18

of

39:19

the other defendants, his children.

39:21

Donald Trump junior, Ivanka

39:24

Trump and Eric Trump.

39:26

And former Trump

39:27

organization CFO,

39:30

Alan Weiselberg and Trump organization

39:33

controller, Jeffrey McConnie. That's just some of

39:35

what she laid out

39:36

today. It is true you cannot

39:38

do guilt by association otherwise.

39:42

Mister Barr is

39:44

suggesting that perhaps they don't have the goods.

39:46

The complaint, this lawsuit says

39:48

the children were intimately involved in

39:51

the operation. the We're aware of the true

39:53

financial performance, which the suit

39:55

alleges they were all lying about and says Donald

39:58

Trump junior, Ivanka Trump and

39:59

Eric Trump, knowingly participated

40:02

in the fraudulent scheme that was integral

40:04

to the company that required their

40:06

participation. And these are exactly the

40:08

claims and assertions that are backed

40:10

up partly by evidence in the two hundred plus

40:13

page suit, and which will be

40:15

adjudicated in court. Meanwhile, you have

40:17

the former CFO, Ellen Weiselberg, now

40:19

a convicted felon he's named more

40:21

than eighty times in suit. And someone

40:24

we've

40:24

heard less about Jeffrey McConning, the

40:26

Trump Awards Controller. Well, He

40:30

cut the actual checks. He's now

40:32

a defendant as well.

40:34

Again, no guilt by association.

40:37

can't be in trouble just for working for Trump or

40:39

having Trump in your

40:41

family name. Each of these people

40:43

will get their day on court as I've emphasized,

40:45

but it's a lot of evidence coming down

40:47

on them that they were involved and they knew. We're gonna fit in a break,

40:49

but I do have something else to tell you. It

40:51

is interesting news and it builds on the announcement I

40:53

shared with you last

40:56

night about the January sixth investigation in the forthcoming

40:58

report. I'm gonna share more

41:01

with you next. This

41:03

final

41:04

January six hearing is now

41:06

slated for next week. MSNBC will be covering

41:09

it live with these special recaps

41:11

in the evening. And we talked a lot about what we

41:13

learned from investigations, which can occur in government. We've been

41:16

recovering the fruits of one tonight in

41:18

New York or

41:20

journalistic investigations. What we

41:22

expect to see next week is this

41:24

committee taking the last aid

41:26

hearings, which covered so many different

41:28

disparate parts of the plot, and trying to

41:30

sum it all up for Americans

41:32

who've been watching and we know there's been great

41:34

interest in the hearings. But that's

41:36

not

41:36

the only way going to

41:38

sum it all up. They also are already

41:40

working on what is expected to

41:43

be an exhaustive report Now

41:45

we mentioned this last night while also announcing

41:47

that I am writing a forward to

41:49

the HarperCollins edition of the January

41:52

sixth committee's

41:54

forthcoming report I'm writing about the co conspiracy. You can see

41:56

the cover of the book

41:58

here. Now we mentioned this to you last night.

42:00

Here's the

42:02

news tonight. That book has now just hit

42:04

number one of all

42:06

books for sale in America and Amazon.

42:10

Number one above the novels, the fiction, the cookbooks. So some

42:12

of you, I gotta say,

42:13

were clearly listening last night. When I

42:16

told you, that I'll be writing this

42:18

forward and that you can preorder the January sixth

42:20

report now. That shows

42:22

the strong interest not only in the report, but

42:24

in the committee's work And I would

42:26

say that whether you buy that book or not, it

42:28

suggests there are many Americans who wanna

42:30

hear. What else this committee

42:31

has to say? in

42:33

the hearing next week, in the forthcoming

42:35

report, clearly, and in any

42:37

reforms that the Congress may pass,

42:39

having gotten its arms

42:41

around just how fraudulent the insurrection and coup effort

42:44

is. So I will say now tonight what I couldn't

42:46

say last night. If you do wanna buy what is

42:48

currently the number one book in America

42:50

on Amazon, thanks to you and

42:51

your interest last night. You can

42:54

still order it now at melberbook

42:56

dot com or get it from any independent

42:58

book seller. Wherever you wanna order your books,

43:00

you can search Melbourne

43:02

January sixth, you'll get the report when it comes

43:04

out, and my new original

43:06

piece on the Koo conspiracy. If you did it

43:08

from

43:08

last night, we noticed, and thank you.

43:10

That does

43:11

it for me.