0:00

On the Bell Cast, the questions asked

0:03

if movies have women in them? Are

0:05

all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?

0:08

Do they have individualism? The

0:10

patriarchy? Zef In best

0:12

start changing it with the Bell Cast,

0:16

Jamie, life's a bitch, and

0:18

now so am I thanks

0:20

for telling me. I guess you're

0:24

welcome. I just want you to know I

0:27

underwent a transformation recently, and

0:29

we'll see I'm actually running

0:33

for mayor. But but if it's if

0:35

things like go south, even the smallest

0:37

bit, the first little snaffhoo

0:40

I encounter, I will then pivot

0:42

and threaten to kill everyone's son,

0:45

all of the small children. Oh

0:48

boy, does he want eighty quickly on

0:50

that one? It is wild.

0:54

Um. I'm trying to figure out who I'm most

0:56

spiritually connected to. I love I love

0:58

Catwoman, but like, I don't know if I could do what

1:00

Catwoman does. I

1:03

do feel very connected to Christopher

1:05

Walkin's big old son, you

1:08

mean Chip, who also talks like Christopher

1:11

Walkin in his two lines of dialogue. This

1:13

is what I wanted to say. I'm so sorry to interrupt

1:15

it earlier, but literally, as soon as they started talking,

1:17

like, I completely forgotten that part of his character

1:20

is that he sounds like his father, and so they're like get

1:22

await that just run And I'm

1:24

like, oh, he's like doing a walk In impression.

1:27

Yeah, the idea that that would be

1:29

a hereditary trait is so funny.

1:32

Or also like begs the question of like how long

1:34

did he spend only with his dad, so that he's

1:36

like, oh, that's like the normal way of talking,

1:38

like talk. Yeah, I

1:42

had so many questions about the sun, but the

1:44

Sun was just like damseled time and time

1:46

again. And we don't

1:49

talk in this community enough about damseling.

1:52

Christopher Walkins, big old son, his

1:54

large adults. Yes, it's a disturbing

1:57

trend in meeting. It's

1:59

a very harmful trope and I won't stand

2:02

for it. Oh my gosh, I think that I am team

2:04

large Adults Son. But also there's but I'm

2:06

also team the clown that's like,

2:08

hey, penguin, are you sure we want to

2:10

steal everyone's son? And then just gets

2:13

shot immediately. There's

2:16

so many goods. I'm also on the side of the stilts

2:19

clown that gets knocked over by the batmobile.

2:21

God, this movie fucking rules.

2:23

It's the batmobile just

2:25

has devices, specifically

2:27

for knocking over people on stilts.

2:29

He's thought through everything, Yeah, every

2:32

contingency. He's like, we gotta have something in the batmobile

2:35

for this. He's like, wait, wait,

2:37

wait, wait, Alfred, what if And it's

2:39

gonna sound wild, but what

2:41

if I needed to feed a clown on stilts?

2:44

We have to be ready. I really,

2:47

I really don't think I appreciated just

2:49

how much work Alfred has to do until

2:51

this movie specifically, and also

2:54

like I'm sure we'll get to this, but they at the end when Batman

2:56

picks up a cat, you can see it in Alfred's face where

2:58

he's like, well, I know he's not going to take care of that thing,

3:00

So that's my cat now, Like I'm

3:03

going to have to do everything for this cat. Yeah,

3:05

who's scooping the litter at the end of the days?

3:07

Are not Bruce Wayne?

3:10

Alright? Oh my gosh. This

3:12

okay, Well, let's just get into it. Welcome to the Becktel

3:14

Cast. My name is Jamie LOFTEV. My name

3:17

is Caitlin Darante, and this is the show where

3:19

we examine movies through an intersectional

3:21

feminist lens, using the Becktel test simply

3:23

as a jumping off point, which of

3:25

course, is a media

3:28

metric created by queer cartoonist Alison

3:30

Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace

3:32

Test. Originally conceived as

3:35

a just kind of one off joke in

3:37

Alison Bechtel's comic Likes

3:39

to Watch Out For, has since

3:42

been kind of co opted into the media

3:44

metric that we based an entire show

3:46

on where Wow,

3:49

yeah calling us out? Um

3:52

we Our version of

3:54

this test is as follows.

3:57

Two people of a marginalized gender

3:59

have to have names, they have to speak to

4:01

each other, and that conversation has to be about

4:03

something other than a man,

4:06

and ideally it's a narratively

4:08

significant conversation, not just like

4:10

a throwaway exchange. Controversially,

4:13

I think when Michelle Fiver talks to her cats,

4:16

we know is a woman because

4:18

they're like hu, they're

4:21

communicating. All right, Well that's it for

4:23

this episode where yeah, We're done.

4:25

I feel like the nonverbal, like

4:28

the nonverbal communication is strong

4:30

and and could it be more narratively

4:32

impactful? No, no, brings

4:35

her back to life kind

4:37

of amazing. That's pretty big, huge,

4:40

Okay, so we are we are covering

4:42

up. Batman returns a

4:45

Christmas movie that came out in June.

4:47

I thought was kind of interesting. But

4:51

in any case, let's get into it because

4:53

clearly we are at

4:55

the crossing with thoughts, so let's

4:57

get our guests in here.

5:00

We must also cat

5:02

on my literally fly is right.

5:09

I really whenever Flee

5:11

is represented in movies, it

5:14

means a lot to me. He was sitting

5:16

in my lap the whole time, riveted. He

5:18

loves a movie cat as he should.

5:20

That's wonderful. So Flee is our

5:22

honorary guest, but our real guest for this episode

5:25

is culture writer and screenwriter Karen

5:27

Hahn. Hello, Hi,

5:30

I'm so excited to be here and also so excited

5:33

to talk about this movie with you guys,

5:35

because again, I think we're all going

5:38

like fully feral as

5:41

Catwoman would want. Yeah, we're so excited

5:43

that you sent us because we were we

5:45

reached out to Karen being like, hey, we want to do you

5:47

know, it's it's holiday movie block, and

5:50

I don't think that we've ever like brought

5:52

this movie up, even though it's overtly

5:54

a holiday movie. Yeah, I

5:57

mean the thing I think just because

5:59

like the iconography of Catwoman and the Penguin

6:02

are so strong, like you tend to forget that there is

6:04

like Christmas and Gotham. And also I feel

6:06

like they forgot about that again, as you

6:08

say, like they put it out in summer. Basically

6:10

they were I think they were like, we'll have our like superhero

6:12

Ted Poole. But then it's like, oh, it's like actually

6:15

a Christmas movie. But I

6:17

mean that's now when I watch it. I will watch

6:19

it when it's cold, right. It

6:21

feels like that's how people view it

6:23

now. And it's also like such an it's like an

6:25

anti Christmas movie too. It's

6:28

so fun. It's a perfect

6:31

film. It just gets

6:33

better every time I watch it. It really does.

6:35

So what's your relationship your history with

6:38

the movie, Karen, I Well,

6:40

it came out the year I was born, so I

6:42

did not watch it in theaters or around

6:45

the time when it debuted. But I watch

6:47

it sometime in the last ten years, which I know is not a

6:49

super specific time frame. But

6:51

that said, it must have been

6:54

post like Nolan Batman um,

6:57

because I know, like I started, I watched these like

6:59

after I saw the Christian Bail movie. But then watching

7:01

this, I was like, holy Cannoli, like this is

7:04

really really good. And also this

7:06

and The Batman that precedes it with

7:08

Jack Nicholson at the Joker. It's just like there's so

7:10

much great stuff going on in both

7:12

movies that it's kind

7:15

of shocking. And I was saying this to Caitlin before

7:17

we recorded that. It's like, I

7:19

can't imagine any exact green lighting

7:21

this movie today, Like you would describe some of the

7:23

elements and be like, no, no, no, no no no, we can't do that.

7:25

That's too silly, or that's too on the nose, or that's

7:28

just weird. But that's what makes

7:30

this movie so fun and so memorable.

7:34

I'm realizing this is the third Batman

7:36

movie we've covered on the podcast, because we did

7:38

the nineteen nine

7:41

Batman like six years ago.

7:43

One of our first episode was a really long time

7:45

ago. I was I was like, how did I see

7:47

this movie? Originally? I was like, oh, it was literally for this

7:50

show the shows Brown ye yeah, yeah,

7:52

yeah yeah. And then we've covered The Dark

7:54

Night a few years ago, and so this

7:56

is our this is our third Batman episode,

7:59

and I'm not mad about it. I

8:01

mean, if there's one thing about Batman movies

8:03

is that there's five hundred million of them,

8:07

and I like a lot of them.

8:09

So Jamie, what's your relationship with Batman?

8:12

Returns? So I had not seen

8:14

this movie before. That's so exciting.

8:16

It was really Um, I have had

8:18

a hell of a couple of days just like watching

8:20

this movie. Uh two and

8:22

a half times. I really

8:25

yeah, I really loved it. I feel like every

8:27

time I say I haven't seen a popular movie, I'd

8:29

like to remind Bethel cast listeners that when

8:31

we started this show, a big

8:33

thrust of the promise was that Caitlin has seen

8:35

a lot of movies, and I had not seen a lot

8:37

of movies. Over the years we

8:40

it doesn't come up as much, but um,

8:42

there's still I still

8:44

haven't seen a lot of movies. Um, but this, yeah,

8:46

I've never seen it before. But I really

8:49

enjoyed the first Tim Burton

8:52

Batman that this was

8:54

like hailed as like one of the best

8:56

superhero slash just sequels in general,

8:59

And yeah, I totally agree with you, Karen,

9:01

Like it's I don't know, like this

9:03

is like Tim Burton allowed to like Tim

9:06

Burton out at the peak of his Tim

9:08

Burton is with like the biggest budget

9:10

possible, and I just but the

9:12

thing, it's like he nails it, Yeah, like

9:15

it's so it was really I

9:17

think that, like I mean, and this is not an

9:19

original observation by a long shot, but it's

9:21

it's so like fun to

9:24

watch a superhero movie that's

9:26

like fun to watch, and you kind of forget that they

9:28

were supposed to be fun to watch.

9:31

And I like a lot of like serious superhero

9:33

movies, like I enjoyed, you know, Robert

9:35

Pattinson Batman, but it's not I

9:38

wasn't laughing, you know,

9:40

and I wasn't supposed to be laughing. But like, this was

9:42

so fun and such a like cool

9:45

otory kind of movie. I loved

9:47

all the behind the scenes stuff

9:50

that was that they had

9:52

real penguins. They have real penguins

9:54

and animatronic penguins and people dressed

9:56

up as penguins. They had every kind of penguin's wild

9:59

It was so and then I

10:01

read um, I just was like, how

10:03

did we end up with the circus? I had

10:05

a theory and then I checked it and

10:07

I was right. I was like, I

10:10

bet that Tim Burton was just like I just

10:12

want a circus because you're like, a circus

10:15

is very obviously not necessary to the

10:17

plot, and it was I guess that it

10:19

was originally written as a band

10:21

of performance artists, and Tim Burton's

10:24

like, that's going to have to be a circus, honey, I

10:26

won't do it with the clowns. It's

10:28

gotta be back flipping clowns. A

10:30

lot of them are going to have machine guns.

10:33

They wrote out Santa with mischine

10:35

guns, which would have been awesome. But

10:39

yeah, I just I fell in love with

10:41

this movie a million percent. It's

10:44

so good. And also I

10:46

brag just saw Danny

10:48

Elfman in concert a couple of weeks ago,

10:51

so I was like triple pumped because

10:53

I forgot how great the scores to his

10:55

Batman movies are so

10:58

good. He's such a weirdo and like the

11:00

best way possible. And also like one of those composers

11:02

where whenever you're listening, you're like, oh, that's Danny Elfman.

11:05

Like he makes no effort I think to like blend

11:07

in. He's just like here in it, here's

11:10

Danny, and you're like, here's Danny. Danny

11:13

Elfan loves a horn. He loves a French horn

11:15

and he loves it. He

11:17

loves one of those. Yeah,

11:20

my second favorite Danny Elfman's core right

11:22

next to of course Spider Man two. Oh

11:24

my god, his

11:27

best and the best of your movie. I also wanted

11:29

to say, I think this is the first time that I can

11:31

say I'm following in Alfred Molina's footsteps

11:33

to some degree to give him that he was

11:36

I think when when it was

11:38

a nun that he was going to be on this podcast,

11:40

I like started crying, like I lost my

11:42

mind. Alfred Molina is our

11:44

friend, and yeah, I was a guest

11:46

on this podcast. Famously are esteemed

11:50

incredible. Haven't heard from them since,

11:53

but all good, and

11:55

we we sold your on. But

11:58

yeah, I hadn't seen this movie before and I absolutely

12:01

love it and I can't wait to introduce it into my

12:03

holiday rotation. Yeah,

12:07

Caitlin, what's your history with Batman Returns?

12:09

I saw it for the first time, probably

12:11

as a freshman in college. I was like, Oh,

12:14

there's all these Batman movies I missed when

12:16

I was a kid. I gotta watch them, And

12:19

so I saw. I watched all four

12:21

of the ones from the late eighties into the nineties.

12:24

It's a fun time. Batman

12:26

Returns is easily my favorite one,

12:29

and I would rank this

12:31

probably my number two superhero

12:33

movie of all a time behind

12:36

behind uh Spiderman into the

12:38

Spider verse. Oh see, I would put

12:40

it Spiderman

12:43

two is always going to be number one for me. But this is

12:45

like top whatever, top of

12:47

the list to percent pile ten

12:49

out of ten on Caitlin's rompo meter because

12:52

Spider versus kind of unbeatable

12:54

in a Whalso, yeah, but yeah,

12:56

incredible movie. I love it so much.

12:59

There's lots to discuss, like,

13:02

oh my gosh, I can't wait to

13:05

dive in the beginning with why do they have

13:07

a baby cage at

13:09

their house there? Do

13:11

you feel like, oh, they like went onto craigslist

13:13

or like rich craigslist or whatever, and we're like, we

13:16

require a little baby cage if anyone knows

13:18

where we could get one of those, or they like hired someone

13:20

to make it after they saw that their baby had

13:22

little webby hands. They called their

13:24

good to Blacksmith. They're like,

13:27

they commissioned. They've

13:29

got a guy, for sure. They definitely

13:32

have a guy. It scares me to think

13:34

what rich people have access to. But

13:36

anyway, but this movie talks

13:38

about that so much. This I was so surprised at how

13:41

deep into like social commentary

13:43

this in a way that like, yeah, I mean, I

13:45

guess I wouldn't say it doesn't feel it

13:47

just like fits into the story very naturally

13:50

in a way that sometimes I feel like it's not like

13:52

a here's the moral of our story kind

13:54

of thing. It's just like it's naturally baked

13:56

into it, woven right in. Yeah.

13:59

I love it. So, yeah,

14:01

I love this movie. I'm so excited to talk about

14:03

it. And um, should

14:05

I do the recap and we'll go from there. Yeah,

14:08

Okay, there's gonna be a lot of interjections

14:11

because every frame of

14:13

this movie, I have something,

14:15

there's something they have to be said

14:18

about everything. Okay, so let's take a quick break

14:20

first and then we'll come

14:22

back to recap. So we'll be right

14:24

back, and

14:31

we're back. I mean, it is wild

14:33

to open your movie in the way that

14:35

this one opens, where it's basically like

14:38

a silent sequence of these two very

14:40

rich people deciding that they don't want their

14:42

baby anymore and then throwing it into

14:44

the sewer. You've got a

14:46

rich regnant lady, yeah,

14:48

screaming because her baby doesn't

14:51

look the way she wants it to look. They

14:53

put it in a cage, the baby eats

14:55

a cat, and then they

14:58

throw the baby in the river, which

15:00

is wildly as it was. As the movie

15:02

was going on, I was like, oh my god, was the

15:04

baby eating a cat foreshadowing

15:08

of him phasing off with Catwoman?

15:10

I think maybe? So. Also I

15:12

was like, what is this the creature

15:15

from Shape of Water eating a cat

15:19

also in this movie? So and if he's

15:21

not, he should be. Um,

15:23

okay, so we see this happen.

15:26

Then we cut to thirty three years later.

15:28

So Danny Devita supposed to be thirty three

15:30

in the movie.

15:32

Yes, okay,

15:35

that made me laugh. Actually that's a

15:37

really good point. Also, I can see my audio

15:39

peaked, like, right, that's

15:43

a really good question, big,

15:46

big question. I guess Penguin

15:48

people age differently. Oh

15:50

yeah, he was like almost fifty already

15:53

by the time. Yes, this came out right,

15:55

Yeah, I think so if you live

15:57

in the sewer age like a president

16:00

is what it is. Actually, you're right,

16:02

Like he's got a lot of city miles, a lot of road miles

16:04

on him. Like he's not lived an easy life.

16:06

No, I get it, he's had it rough. So it

16:09

happens.

16:10

Yeah, it's really

16:13

funny. Yeah,

16:15

so he's he's dwelling in the sewers,

16:18

people seem to know about

16:20

him, or there's rumors about his existence. This

16:22

you know, half man, half penguin person.

16:25

It kind of had Phantom of the Opera vibes. Yeah,

16:28

absolutely, but like more charming

16:30

in a way. Also, his whole just his underground

16:33

water layer is like straight

16:35

out of Phantom of the Opera. Yeah. Yeah, it's

16:37

kind of like in a different world. You're like,

16:39

oh, I could I could see myself getting horny

16:42

for the penguin, you know, in a different

16:44

world. I mean I

16:47

was. I was kind of horny for Colin

16:49

Farrell penguin, but only because I knew who was in

16:51

there. Well, also like he was he was

16:53

funny, like the funniest part of the movie arguably

16:56

when they show him like the crime scene pictures. He's like, oh

16:58

come on, I was like, absolutely,

17:02

yeah, he kind of he kind of posted me pulled out a

17:04

little bit on that one.

17:06

I liked it, but I don't

17:08

say I feel like I am like I am.

17:10

I love I love this penguin. I would let

17:12

him into my house, no question. I would say, yeah, yeah,

17:15

yeah, absolutely I would. I would vote for

17:17

him for mayor it well before the pivot, but

17:19

not post pivot. Before I

17:22

got. There's so many elements, I mean, and there's like stuff

17:24

about the penguin that we definitely need to like

17:27

talk about when when the moment comes. But

17:29

there's a lot to unpack. But his

17:31

whole like I think, like coming

17:34

off the l a mayoral race, so you're like,

17:36

oh, yeah, just a guy trying to buy

17:38

the seat of mayor um and

17:40

almost doing it. And I was like, is this

17:43

going to be Rick Caruso's pivot? I kind of

17:45

just hope he goes back to building malls

17:47

literally why. I watched this with my partner last night

17:50

and he was like, oh, like I would vote for the penguin

17:52

over Rick Caruso, And I was like, You're right, I would

17:54

too, Honestly, at least

17:56

he's got a story. Yeah, he's much

17:58

like sympathetic and he's not like rich

18:01

brain pilled. No, he's

18:03

he's so quick to go back to the zoo. Ultimately,

18:06

his loyalties lie with the zoo. The

18:08

zoo a problematic entity all its

18:10

own, but who knows that better than the penguin

18:13

exactly what I mean, Like, I

18:15

guess I assume he's like freed all the penguins

18:17

that work for him, like even

18:20

liberated them from the zoo, right,

18:23

I think, yeah, But then he uses them

18:25

as ponds and his little um.

18:27

That's, you know, destroy a Gotham scheme.

18:29

I am very conflicted about this because he does that

18:32

but only arguably in a moment of extreme desperation,

18:34

and then he is really like caring

18:37

of them, and then they are very caring

18:39

of him in turn, like they become they

18:41

know to do, like, oh ship, we gotta be pall bearers

18:43

now, and like they know to do. That's

18:46

he makes me cry. I'm not like siously

18:50

makes me cry. They make the animatronic penguins

18:52

frown. I paused it. I was like, how is this

18:54

penguin frowning? This is wild?

18:57

Like yeah, I thought that was like it

18:59

was unclear. I was like, the penguins kind

19:02

of have like some Minions vibes

19:04

where you're like, oh my god, they just are like

19:06

invested there. But

19:09

I understand where you're coming. He's

19:11

crew. I'm just always

19:13

looking for who's the grow of the movie here.

19:17

I mean, all throughout my recap is

19:20

just full of Minions references. So

19:22

thank god, Oh terrific cool.

19:25

Okay, Sorry sorry for derailing

19:27

immediately. We have a lot of thoughts about the penguins,

19:29

specifically, we'll get to them. Yeah, yeah, we'll

19:32

wait. We'll be so good, no

19:34

worries. Okay. So then we meet Selina

19:37

Kyle played by Michelle Peiffer, who

19:40

is the assistant to a prominent

19:42

businessman and like energy

19:45

mogul Max Shrek played

19:47

by Christopher Walkin, And now my

19:49

blood pressure is skyrocketing. You're

19:51

just like, oh, there's a character

19:53

named Shrek. My favorite

19:56

quote that because I was like, okay,

19:58

you know, look, Shrek called sure, it's come it's

20:00

gone, it's come back. My

20:03

favorite one was it's nice

20:05

to see you out in the real world away from Shrek.

20:07

I'm like, I feel like I could relate

20:09

with that. People should. I

20:13

wish someone would say that to me. I would go on a date

20:15

with them that said, this is an extremely

20:17

Shrekkian movie. We

20:19

got Shrek, we got minions, we got

20:22

it all, we got clowns. There's so much

20:24

what don't we have? Okay,

20:27

So Max Shrek

20:30

gives a speech to the people of Gotham

20:32

during a Christmas tree

20:35

lighting event, but he's

20:37

interrupted when a bunch of goons

20:40

or minions think

20:42

about that aka the Red Triangle

20:44

gang. You need to get like a

20:46

Minion soundboard

20:50

whatever you mentioned it. It's just it's like not

20:52

the air horn noise. But I actually don't really

20:55

know what I I mean. It sounds like, but oh

20:57

well, what don't they sound like that's a good

20:59

you know, nana bello,

21:02

bellow banana, etcetera. I'm

21:06

learning so much. It's like

21:10

the time of year holidays.

21:12

You're like, oh, my Spotify

21:14

wrapped list is gonna really

21:16

bumm me out soon. Mine's always like horrendous,

21:19

so bad, right, Like it's if you're

21:22

proud enough to share it, it's you

21:24

don't have an interior life. It should be really

21:26

embarrassing. I feel like, yeah,

21:28

I definitely share it, like for public shaming

21:31

purposes, right, as

21:33

a way of holding yourself accountable.

21:36

Yeah, here's what I did, I guess. Yeah,

21:38

yeah, I think that it's it's very

21:40

possible because I played it a lot as

21:42

a joke, and then it's such a short track that it

21:44

comes on a lot. But there's

21:46

a track on my like go to playlist

21:49

that's the Minions

21:51

singing the Universal theme song.

22:00

But I think I probably listened to it three hundred

22:03

times. It

22:05

oh, a few years ago, my most

22:08

played song was the Lonesome Cowboy

22:10

credits song from Toy Story four, was

22:14

like, this is song what

22:17

happened to you that year that you were really

22:22

But I also think that once I had stepped away from my computer

22:24

and left it on repeat without knowing it. So that did

22:26

check up the numbers. But that's not to say that I didn't

22:28

listen to it a lot, because I definitely didn't. I

22:31

gotta, really, I got to revisit it. I can't conjure.

22:33

What does it sound like? He was aloneesome,

22:37

cowboys beautiful?

22:40

I'm crying there. I'm

22:43

getting tried. It's all about making friends. I've

22:47

never sounded worse on a podcast. Disagree,

22:51

No, this is this is raw and uncut.

22:57

Yeah, all

22:59

right. So the Indians, so Penguins

23:01

minions show up to re

23:04

cavoc on the city. So

23:06

the city lights up the bat signal to

23:08

summon Batman, of course, played

23:10

by Michael Keaton, who shows up and

23:12

stops the minions. He also

23:15

saves Selena Kyle, who is

23:17

being terrorized by one

23:19

of the minions. I

23:21

know I said that we would be so good dirty

23:24

Custom recapt but

23:26

number one. I pointed this out again to Gala before

23:28

the before recording already, but I wore my Michael Keaton

23:30

shirt specifically for this recording. There's

23:33

a um

23:36

And also the shot of him when

23:38

the bad signal is lit is like one

23:40

of the best shots I've ever seen, where

23:43

it goes off on the wall of Wayne Manor

23:45

and then like he stands up in front of it and you're like,

23:48

it's just so good, It's so good, amazing.

23:51

It also revided. I was like, oh, yeah, superhero

23:53

stories like it's fun when they're very simple

23:56

too, because you're like, what is Bruce Wayne in

23:58

the middle of doing. Is he just like hoping

24:00

that someone will commit a crime so he

24:02

has something to do. He's just sitting there,

24:05

He's just hanging out. There's not a

24:07

light on in the room. There's no evidence

24:10

as to him having hobbies. No,

24:13

No, I think that that's a beautiful I was like,

24:15

let me give the scriptway too

24:18

much credit and be like, well, maybe that's them

24:20

saying that, you know, billionaires

24:22

have no interior life.

24:26

They're all essentially sitting in a dark room at

24:28

all times. I mean, yeah,

24:31

I think you're right, but

24:33

who am I to castones? I also

24:35

do that mark like,

24:38

yeah, people of all classes can sit in a dark

24:40

room. It's a very egalitarian. Yeah,

24:42

it's a great equalized right, yap wow.

24:44

Okay, So during this havoc

24:48

that the minions are unleashing Max,

24:50

Shrek is kidnapped by

24:53

the Penguin, who, of course is played

24:55

by Danny de Vito, and he is mad

24:58

at Shrek for polluting the city

25:00

and he blackmails Shrek into

25:03

helping Penguin so hard

25:05

not to make a joke, he's

25:09

making Gotham his swamp. Yes, he

25:11

really is. Yeah, Gotham

25:13

is getting a bit swampy. Who's

25:17

Shrek doesn't? Really? I think part of the I think

25:19

his son's son is

25:21

Donkey, is his Donkey.

25:24

He is kind of his Donkey, which

25:26

makes it even more amazing when

25:28

Shrek is like, t Penguin,

25:30

take me. Yeah, it lends new

25:33

depths to the motion picture Shrek. Now, Shrek

25:35

would totally do that for Donkey. Also,

25:37

he has I've seen it evidence.

25:43

Okay. I have to say

25:45

I love how talkatively is and

25:48

he's such a cute voice. It's so

25:50

sweet. He knows

25:52

that Catwoman is about to appear

25:55

on screen. Yeah, Flee loves to chat.

25:57

He loves to he loves to weigh in, and

26:00

he knows that this is a good time.

26:02

Has he always been a very talkative count? Yeah,

26:05

I've never I've only had like

26:07

mostly coincidentally, I've I've had three

26:10

black cats in my lifetime, and I've

26:12

never had one that made any noise.

26:14

And Flee is so loud. He always

26:17

has been. He's a he's

26:19

a screamer. It's wonderful. Okay,

26:21

So Penguin blackmails

26:24

Shrek into helping him figure out

26:26

his backstory. He wants to know where he came

26:28

from, who his parents were, what his

26:30

real name is, and he no

26:32

longer wants to be seen as a monster.

26:36

Meanwhile, Selena has to go

26:38

back to the office where she discovers

26:41

dirt on Shrek and

26:43

all of his shady business stuff,

26:46

and just then Shrek shows up and

26:48

realizes Selena knows

26:50

all of this incriminating information

26:52

about him. So do you think

26:54

he wants her to get out of his swamp? There

26:58

he kind of shows up and he's like, get out of swan

27:00

exactly, Yeah, by Shrek

27:03

at the beginning of Shrek one exactly, And

27:05

he gets her out of his swamp by throwing

27:07

her out of a window. That scene

27:10

is awesome. So

27:12

she falls to the ground. She is lying there,

27:14

presumably dead, but then a bunch of

27:16

street cats, and I like to think

27:19

that they are you know, rum

27:21

Tum Tugger, busta for Jones,

27:24

magical, Mr Mustaphele every

27:28

bed. Wow, everyone

27:30

showed up. I'm

27:33

as a skimball shanks girly I

27:35

but I maybe he comes later when

27:37

there's a random circus train in the middle

27:40

of Gotham. Because the railway cat

27:42

he has a job is

27:45

a union man. I love him.

27:49

Okay, So these cats from the movie

27:51

Cats seem to bring Selena

27:53

back to life. She returns

27:56

home. She's chugging milk, she's

27:58

throwing away her stuffed anim she

28:00

makes a new outfit because guess what, she's

28:03

catwoman now. She ruins her

28:05

dollhouse question mark, Yes, she

28:08

makes it goth. I was watching this and I was like, I

28:10

do think, like every woman goes through

28:12

this at some point in her life means like you either become

28:15

goth or you become emo. It's

28:17

like you become like adjacent to Then

28:19

to that scene, every woman goes through

28:21

this, every single woman. She

28:23

turns her hello there sign

28:25

into hell here. I

28:28

cheered iconic, I

28:30

cheered so good. There's so

28:32

much fun like little plants and

28:35

payoffs in this movie that you're

28:37

just like, who thought of

28:39

that? It's the production I forget the production designers,

28:41

like the Tim Burton guy bow something.

28:44

I'll look it up. Okay,

28:46

So she's becoming Catwoman. Meanwhile,

28:49

Penguin stage as a situation where

28:52

he saves a kidnapped baby

28:54

at a public event so that he

28:56

can save it and be seen as

28:58

a hero by the people of Gotham,

29:01

which works, and everyone loves

29:03

Penguin now. And he

29:06

goes to city hall or whatever,

29:08

and he learns that his real name is

29:10

Oswald cobble Pot. He

29:12

learns who his parents were, but he's like,

29:14

I forgive them for what they did to me, and

29:18

so people continue to sympathize with him.

29:20

But Bruce Wayne slash

29:23

Batman, who by the way, it

29:25

were like thirty six ish minutes into

29:27

the movie, and it's only at this point

29:29

when he actually starts to become a character, because

29:33

prior to that he's barely in the movie. He's

29:35

kind of like not in the movie very much, and

29:38

it doesn't know that that

29:40

was Yeah, I mean, I get why that was

29:42

Like a criticism of the movie at the

29:44

time, but in retrospect you're like

29:48

he's sort of the most boring person. It works,

29:51

and also like I don't know, that's

29:53

the fun thing about his Michael Keaton is also

29:56

a weird choice for Batman, but like one that I love

29:58

in a back but like he's

30:00

like a little awkward. He doesn't

30:03

have like the leading man features that I feel

30:05

like everyone else they want Batman to

30:07

have, even just like thinking

30:09

about Batman the previous

30:11

movie where like the Joker's

30:13

goons or whatever come to his house and he's like, you want to

30:15

get crazy, Let the Jokers Minions

30:18

You're correct, yes, the Minions Banana. They

30:21

come to his house, and then he like

30:23

has this moment where he's also being like

30:25

very kind of aggressive towards them, which is not I

30:27

think, like you never see Batman

30:30

and other movies being like uncool, but

30:32

he's so is as Michael Keaton,

30:34

and like the whole first scene or the

30:36

second scene where he meets Selena and

30:39

he is just totally tripping over his words just

30:41

because he's instantly like, oh, she's like she's hot.

30:43

I have to talk to her. It's so good. It's

30:46

I I And again it's like it's like

30:48

in a modern context like scans

30:51

more with like how a weird

30:54

guy with too much money would probably act

30:56

like yeah, I love

30:59

you alive girl. Yeah,

31:02

yes, okay, so so Bruce

31:05

slash Batman. He does not buy

31:07

this whole like Penguin is a sympathetic

31:10

character thing. He thinks

31:12

Penguin is up to no good. Meanwhile,

31:14

Catwoman goes out on the streets

31:17

and starts being a vigilante,

31:21

not hero exactly, because Catwoman

31:23

is famously sort of a good guy

31:25

and sort of a bad guy. Maybe that's over

31:27

oversimplifying. We will talk about her

31:29

at length. But she blows up a store, but

31:31

it's like empty, it's

31:33

empty, and it's Shreks

31:36

store, So we're like, yeah,

31:39

you're like, oh, I guess that was evictiblest crime.

31:41

It's fine. So Catwoman is

31:44

on the streets now. The next

31:46

day she shows up to work as

31:48

Selena, and Shrek is surprised

31:51

to see her back in his swamp

31:53

because he thought he killed her. Yeah, he thought he

31:55

drowned her in the swamp. Well guess what. But

31:59

also like shockingly unconcerned that

32:01

a woman who has fallen a significant distance

32:03

out of a window is just like back and not

32:05

talking about that, and he says something

32:07

like, well, if she tries to blackmail

32:10

me, I'll push her out of a higher window. But

32:12

until then I have better fish to fry.

32:15

Yeah, it's like the

32:18

shreky and logic here is kind of all

32:20

over the because he's like, okay, so he didn't check

32:23

to make sure she had died, right,

32:25

Like, if he looked out the window two minutes after that,

32:27

he'd see her body being swarmed by cats,

32:29

which is highly unusual. But

32:32

you know, he's a he's a careless guys. I was like, okay,

32:34

whatever, but like there are things that happened

32:36

throughout the movie that you just think is going to get a

32:38

big reaction from him, and he just does not blink,

32:41

such as when Penguin bites someone's nose

32:43

off. He's like, comes over here, what

32:46

sidebar? And I was like, oh my god,

32:48

he just like does not Yeah.

32:51

I mean I don't hate it, but I was like, yeah, sometimes

32:53

his reactions to things. I was like, well, I

32:55

thought that would have mattered more to you. I think the

32:57

nose meaning is especially funny because every

33:00

one else freaks out and then only Christopher

33:02

walk and he's like all right, whatever, he literally

33:04

takes a society. He's like, I think we should run you

33:06

for mayor. It's

33:10

really funny. Oh that's so good.

33:13

Okay. So Selena is back at

33:15

work and she meets

33:17

Bruce Wayne, who is there for a

33:19

meeting because Shrek wants Bruce to help

33:22

fund his new power plant, which is actually not

33:24

a power plant, is going to suck energy out

33:26

of Gotham rather than generating energy

33:29

anyway. He they meet and there

33:31

seems to be a spark between Bruce

33:33

and Selina. And

33:36

then meanwhile Shrek is trying

33:38

to have Oswald cobble Pot

33:40

run for mayor because the

33:42

current mayor of Gotham is trying to

33:44

stop shreks bogus power

33:47

plant. I think. But

33:49

they need a catalyst to drive out

33:51

the current mayor some kind of like city

33:54

crisis. So Penguin's

33:56

minions unleash more chaos

33:58

on the streets, which is basically

34:00

just like assertain they just like militarized

34:03

the clowns or the penguins anytime

34:05

they need shipped to get stirred up there, like all right,

34:07

all right, We're just going to give the penguins

34:10

guns and people will

34:12

not know what to do. And it's true

34:14

they don't know what to do. It's true panic. Yeah,

34:17

so the clown gymnasts

34:19

are flipping around and just

34:22

causing chaos. Separately,

34:24

Catwoman is wreaking her own

34:26

havoc on the city. She This is when she blows

34:29

up Shreks department store. Then

34:31

Batman and Catwoman have like a face

34:33

to face for the first time. They fight for

34:36

a bit. They then Catwoman each

34:38

I mean, well, she looks It's like a

34:41

very sexually charged movie. Oh

34:44

it is the horny ist movie

34:46

I've ever seen. There's like a scene where he says

34:48

like I'm hard, like you're

34:50

just there are a number

34:52

of times where I'm pretty sure she

34:55

puts her hand on his penis

34:58

and he's just like all right.

35:01

I wonder if that's a rating thing where it's like you can

35:03

imply that her hand is there, but if

35:06

he reacts to it, then you're getting hard

35:08

are then? Yeah, I'm

35:10

not sure who knows. I

35:13

didn't hate it, but again, very very

35:15

horny movie, and for younger me definitely,

35:18

I was like, oh wow, like what

35:20

is going on here? So

35:23

then Catwoman goes to Penguin to

35:26

be like, hey, help me get rid

35:28

of Batman and Penguin's like sounds

35:30

great, he's horned up. Oh

35:32

yeah, there's that scene that

35:35

ends with like, I mean because it's like, as

35:37

the movie goes on, Catwoman's horny

35:40

nous just they just keep kind of cranking

35:42

it up and up and up and up. To be fair, they're also

35:44

doing that for Penguin. Like everyone's

35:46

getting hornier as it goes but

35:48

like Catwoman's becoming a very you know, like

35:51

specific kind of horny. But there's a scene that ends

35:53

with her licking herself and

35:56

Penguin just sitting on the bed going like, were

35:59

just horny. He's

36:01

been in the sewer for thirty three

36:03

years, as we now know, Like we don't

36:06

know how much action he's been getting, but I

36:08

have to assume it's not that much. And if you've

36:10

been down there for thirty three years and this is all you're

36:12

thinking about, I think he's justified. It

36:14

really is Phantom of the Opera vibes in

36:16

that regards as well. We're just like, I need

36:18

a girlfriend. Finally he

36:23

does. In

36:25

a future scene he is kind of

36:27

going like our slash in cell a little

36:29

bit. Oh he's a complete

36:31

full on predator. Yeah,

36:34

but we'll talk about that later. Um.

36:37

Okay. So Catwoman

36:39

wants to get rid of Batman, but

36:42

she as Selena, goes

36:44

on a date with Bruce, neither

36:47

of them knowing about the others alter ego.

36:50

They're chatting, they're talking about duality.

36:53

They're like basically telling each other who

36:56

they secretly are. Um.

36:58

Then Selena Lune is that Bruce to kiss

37:01

him. They're making out, but then Bruce has

37:03

to leave abruptly because Penguin

37:05

is trying to frame Batman for

37:08

kidnapping the Ice Princess

37:10

during the New Christmas

37:13

tree lighting ceremony since the other one got

37:15

ruined by clowns

37:17

by clown by clown gymnasts.

37:20

But don't worry, the next one will also

37:22

be ruined by by the same

37:24

people. So

37:28

Bruce puts on his bat suit and heads

37:30

down so hard. It's all a horrible

37:32

place to live, and also

37:34

like feels like it's perpetually a nighttime

37:37

almost like I know logically that they're

37:39

hard day time shots, but it's just it's

37:41

always under the cover of darkness. I also appreciate

37:44

that at one point the mayor is

37:46

like, yeah, I know that you citizens

37:49

of Gotham probably think that you

37:52

know, these streets are really funked

37:54

up and scary, but don't worry. You're

37:56

elected officials and law enforcement have

37:58

everything under control. And it's like, no,

38:01

you don't. You're attacked by clowns every

38:03

other day. How well could these

38:05

public services be doing there? The

38:07

way that Gotham looks, I think of like all

38:09

the Batman franchises I've

38:12

seen, I think, I mean, I've seen like one from every

38:15

whatever. But this is my favorite Gotham

38:17

visually because I love the Nolan movies, but it

38:19

does kind of just look like Chicago. I

38:22

like them for that reason, though, Like I do think

38:24

this is still my favorite Gotham. But I'm very sentimental

38:26

watching the Nolan Gotham because I grew up a

38:28

lot in Illinois, and I'm like,

38:32

that's the best nice. I was like, maybe if Gotham

38:34

looked a little more like Boston, I wouldn't be so

38:36

critical. Every movie has to be made for me specifically.

38:39

I mean, I do feel like you would feel very differently

38:41

about it if Gotham looked like Boston. I would

38:43

actually be so thrilled. Have

38:45

either of you seen the menu? Not not

38:47

yet, but I do want to spoiler

38:49

alert there's a character from my home

38:52

town. Yeah,

38:56

although I couldn't really suspend

38:58

my disbelief to believe that Anya Taylor I

39:00

could be from my hometown. There's

39:03

I was like, I don't think that there's beautiful

39:05

people like that in Brockton. But

39:07

she came from Brockton. Jamie,

39:09

you're beautiful. I'm

39:12

not. I'm not. I'm a tailor. Joyce swan

39:14

Neck defeating Ralph finds

39:16

at a restaurant. Beautiful. But you know who

39:19

is? Who is? But her? It's true. She

39:22

is like an alien. She she is

39:24

a gorgeous alien. I really love

39:26

her. Yeah, she came from a different like the sailor

39:28

moon planet or something. It's

39:31

I do appreciate her even

39:33

being fictionally connected to Brockton. It's

39:35

an honor. There wasn't.

39:37

There was a show a while ago that was

39:40

specifically set in the town in Illinois that I

39:42

mostly grew up in, but they didn't shoot any of it there

39:44

and didn't really make an attempt to make it look like

39:46

it. Not that there's that much going for my hometown

39:48

in Illinois, but every I remember, everyone

39:51

that I like went to high school with, we were like

39:53

watching the trailer. We were like, what the hell is this? Like

39:55

this is not at all, This

39:57

doesn't look like a done at all. Rude.

40:00

Brockton gets constantly disrespected

40:03

because of like there have been like some

40:05

movies shot sequences there,

40:08

but it's only like, oh, we

40:10

need somewhere that looks like it sucks

40:12

and it's not safe. So there were like

40:14

a lot of key scenes from Katherine

40:17

Bigelow's Dumpster Fire of a movie

40:19

Detroit was shot at the streets of Brockton

40:21

because they're like, we just need a place that looks like it just

40:24

blew up, and so then they shot it in Brockton.

40:26

Rude. Adam McKay shot

40:29

some of the scenes where like Timothy

40:31

shallowm is hanging out with his dumpster friends and

40:33

don't look up in Brockton. I'm

40:35

just like, no fucking respect.

40:39

Unbelievable. They're

40:42

like, okay, dumpster sequence, where can we go?

40:44

Like what the fuck? Okay?

40:49

So the second

40:51

tree lighting ceremony is being interrupted

40:53

by clowns, so Bruce puts on

40:55

his batsuit and heads downtown to save

40:58

the day. But Catwoman shows up

41:00

and she and Penguin successfully

41:03

frame Batman for murdering the

41:05

ice princess. So now everyone hates

41:07

Batman, which is a pity because she seems

41:09

nice. She seems very nice. Yeah.

41:12

Also there's a sequence where

41:14

Penguin hijacks the batmobile

41:17

and he's like crashing it into things,

41:20

but then Batman regains

41:22

control of his vehicle. He's

41:25

like doing it from like an arcade. It's

41:29

really fun, it's really really cute. It's

41:31

awesome. Then Penguin

41:33

is able to gain more power and

41:35

popularity with his mayoral campaign.

41:38

But while he's giving a speech, Bruce

41:40

Wayne Slash Batman leaks some audio

41:44

where Penguin is talking about how

41:46

he's playing this stinking city

41:48

like a harp from hell, and

41:51

so everyone turns on Penguin

41:54

and hates him now. So he returns

41:56

to the Sewer to plot his revenge.

41:59

This is where he goes from

42:02

semi successful mayoral run too,

42:05

I'm going to kill everyone's firstborn

42:07

son in about two minutes. I think

42:09

he could have recovered the campaign, could

42:11

have recovered. I mean it reminded me of, like,

42:13

honestly, some key moments in the Trump

42:16

campaign. Seriously, I was saying

42:18

the exact same thing. It reminds

42:20

me I was like that, Well, there is his Billy Bush

42:22

tape basically and

42:25

against all

42:28

odds, he was

42:30

famously the president. We don't need to talk

42:32

about. So Penguin's campaign

42:34

tanked, but Trump's won't.

42:36

What's going on makes you think?

42:42

Okay, so about

42:45

Penguin, writes in this chat. So

42:49

while Penguin is plotting his

42:51

plan to kill a bunch of babies,

42:54

very plagues of Egypt. Yeah,

42:58

while that's happening, Bruce and Selena go

43:01

to this masquerade party,

43:03

although it's called a Max Scarade

43:05

party because it's Max Shrek's party.

43:08

Um, get it, get it.

43:10

It's a real stretch, it's hard, it's

43:13

a mouthful. When he walks in there playing an

43:15

instrumental of super super

43:17

Freak, implication

43:21

that super freak like exists in this universe,

43:23

which I'm glad to know that it does.

43:26

Yeah, I wonder if it only existed as an

43:28

instrumental. Oh,

43:31

interesting could be Um

43:34

okay. So they're dancing and

43:36

Selena is telling Bruce about how she's

43:38

there to kill Shrek. She

43:40

said, no more swamp. No, I'm

43:42

going to drain this swamp, she says,

43:47

And then they both say something that makes Selena

43:50

realize that Bruce's Batman, and he realizes

43:52

that she is catwoman. Um so

43:54

they're like, oh my god, what do we do now? But just then Penguin

43:57

launches his attack. He

44:00

shows up. He kidnaps Max Shrek

44:02

again as

44:05

a second choice he loves. She tries

44:07

to kidnap Chip, but then

44:09

Shrek is like, no, don't hurt my donkey.

44:12

Take me instead. That's

44:14

my donkey.

44:17

I wish the Chip had gotten to talk. There

44:20

could be dead. Let him take

44:22

me I can. But honestly,

44:24

like his christ ever walk in the Freshman is shockingly good.

44:26

Like it's just subtle enough. Yeah,

44:29

who was that guy? He killed it? I

44:31

don't know, feel like used to

44:33

be in m M A or something was my impression.

44:37

Andrew brand Narski. He

44:40

is an American actor and former bodybuilder,

44:42

best known for portraying leather Face in the

44:44

remake of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre,

44:47

Saying in Street Fighter, and

44:49

Steve Latimer in the Program, and obviously

44:52

Chip in Batman returns his

44:54

most iconic role. Okay,

44:59

so while that's happening, Penguin's

45:01

minions are stealing babies all

45:03

over Gotham. But Batman

45:05

stops this somehow. I didn't

45:08

even catch how he's able to stop

45:10

that, but that he puts an end to it. So

45:12

Penguin sends out all of

45:14

his little penguins,

45:17

like literal penguin birds

45:19

with rockets strapped to them to blow

45:22

up Gotham. And I would classify

45:24

this scene as a bit of a march of

45:26

the penguins. Oh yeah,

45:30

yeah, bit of happy feet marching out onto

45:32

the streets. Yeah,

45:35

and I think that's all the penguin movies. Well,

45:37

there's also surf Surf's up. Is that what it's

45:40

called? Surfing penguins? I

45:42

forgot about that. Madagascar has

45:44

penguins in it. They are not the prominently

45:48

it's true, really famous penguins.

45:50

Yeah, they got their own spin off, right, I thought

45:53

so. My little cousin loved

45:56

the Madagascar movies. Okay, I

45:59

haven't revisited it a while, but I loved it

46:01

when I was a kid. The second

46:03

one does a polka cover of New York, New

46:05

York, which is one of my favorite versions of it. Like not

46:07

ironically, it's very and that's

46:09

going to show up on your Spotify end

46:12

of year to this year, it

46:14

probably has already.

46:18

Um. Okay, so there's a march

46:20

of the penguins, but Batman shows up he

46:22

jams their signal and reroutes

46:24

their gps IS to send them back

46:26

to Penguin's sewer layer. Penguin

46:30

escapes, Batman catches

46:32

up with him, they fight, Rockets start going

46:34

off. Meanwhile, Catwoman

46:36

fights with Shrek in the

46:39

Penguin Layer. She's trying to kill

46:41

him, but Batman shows up and he's

46:43

like, no, let's put him in jail, and

46:46

he's trying to appeal to her humanity.

46:48

He's like, we could be together. Batman was pissing

46:51

me off in that scene. I was like, leave her alone,

46:53

let her finish him. Seriously, totally agree,

46:56

and also like takes the very ill advised

46:58

tack of saying her real name

47:00

and then taking off his mask in front of Max StrEG

47:02

in order to try to convince her. And I'm like, if

47:04

anything, that makes the case for killing him

47:07

even stronger, Like he

47:09

can't be out there. No. It is really funny

47:11

though, When Shrek is like, why

47:13

is Bruce Wayne dressed up as Batman? Catwoman's

47:16

like, because he is, you, moron. It's

47:20

good anyway. So Catwoman

47:22

kills Shrek via electrocution

47:25

and then presumably scurries off with

47:27

one life left of her nine lives.

47:31

Penguin shows up, he's dying. He

47:33

dies so that his little

47:35

penguins drag him into the water and

47:38

Karen's crying. I I do

47:40

cry every time he dies in this movie, Like this

47:42

is not a joke, Like I cried and death

47:45

scene every time it is sad. They

47:47

give him like a real proper tragic

47:50

hero or not tragic villain and send

47:52

off. When he pulls the umbrella out

47:54

and it's and he's like, pict a cute one

47:56

again and then just falls her. I was like, oh,

48:00

he's an eight. He

48:03

got he should they

48:05

should just give him.

48:08

He's such a good actor. And I feel

48:10

like we all forget that because he's so good at

48:12

being like funny and weird and like

48:14

it's always sunny and stuff and posting his

48:16

feet to Twitter. But he's

48:19

such a good actors.

48:21

His performance is incredible. He's

48:23

amazing. Yeah, um okay. So then

48:25

the movie ends with Bruce. He's

48:27

driving around with Alfred. He thinks

48:29

he sees catwoman in an alley.

48:32

He gets out, he finds her cat,

48:34

which looks exactly like Fleet by the way.

48:37

He takes it home so that, like

48:39

we said, Alfred can take care of it

48:42

and then Bruce Wayne says Merry Christmas,

48:44

Alfred goodwill toward men

48:47

and women, and then they

48:49

go, oh like feminist

48:52

icon. He nibbles a little bit there.

48:55

Wow, it

48:58

is a really funny final line. It's

49:01

you see Catwoman and then

49:03

you know, like, because we live in the future,

49:05

that she never comes back, and it's sending

49:08

you up for a movie that never happens. Okay,

49:11

let's take another quick break and we will come back

49:13

to discuss, and

49:21

we're back. Karen, Where would you like to

49:23

begin? Uh,

49:27

that's such a good question. There's

49:29

so much to talk about. I mean, I guess we'll start with the

49:31

penguin because he's fresh on my mind,

49:34

where I just love him so much, I would I

49:36

would give a little kiss. I don't mind

49:38

that he's

49:40

perfect. The main conversation

49:44

to be had about him as it pertains

49:46

to our show and

49:48

the analysis we do here is

49:51

um the physical

49:53

mothering and able ism

49:56

that is present in his character,

49:59

even though no specific disability

50:01

is referenced when it comes to his character.

50:03

And I'm pretty sure that having penguin

50:06

like features, to my knowledge, is

50:08

not a real thing, right.

50:12

But the syndactyl

50:15

ly or what is it with his hands, I think is

50:17

the real thing. But obviously, again they don't put like a

50:19

name to any of what's going on, right

50:21

right, Even so, a villain in

50:23

a movie having a typical

50:25

physical features and looking different from

50:28

everybody else is just inherently

50:31

ablest. And in this case, I would

50:33

say also fat phobic, because

50:35

Danny de Vito is wearing a

50:37

fat suit as the Penguin character.

50:40

So there's just all of this again physical

50:42

mothering of his character. But this

50:45

movie does something interesting

50:47

that I feel like a lot of movies don't

50:49

do when it comes to physically other movie

50:52

villains, where the movie will

50:54

other the villain in some

50:56

way, usually with like very

50:59

ablest under an overtones, but

51:01

it's usually not something that impacts this story

51:04

or the character. It's just like a trait that exists

51:06

in a void for that character. But Penguin's

51:09

whole thing is that he was

51:11

discarded by his parents because

51:14

he was physically different, which

51:16

led to a lifetime of

51:18

isolation and resentment and

51:21

longing, which turned him

51:23

into the villain that he is. So

51:27

you have this character who's like affected

51:29

by everyone in the

51:31

community being ablest towards him,

51:35

and yes, it does turn him into a villain.

51:38

I don't know. I don't know what to make of it exactly,

51:40

but it's it's tough, I think, like, especially

51:42

for the time period, Like it feels

51:45

pretty forward in that respect, where again,

51:47

like the fact that he looks the way he does

51:49

is not supposed

51:51

to indicate that he's a villain, like I

51:53

think, especially because of the way that Tim

51:55

Burton uses iconography, like everyone looks a little

51:58

bit weird it

52:00

and especially as you were sort of saying in the penguin's case,

52:02

like he is like this specifically because

52:04

everyone else discriminates against him because

52:06

of the way he looks. So it's not there as

52:09

a storytelling shortcut

52:12

or anything like that. It's not there in the sense

52:14

of, like I think it's discussed the most with like

52:16

Bond villains, where there's always some kind of

52:19

physical deformity that has no

52:21

bearing on their personality but just means look

52:23

at them, they're evil, which is not the case

52:25

here. And I also feel like the

52:27

depths again, the fact that data

52:29

Vito is such a good and empathetic actor

52:32

like goes a really long way towards

52:34

selling that point, because like

52:36

then they have the direct like

52:38

rips from the elephant man, where at first,

52:40

like when he's being reintegrated into society, he's

52:42

like, I'm not a penguin, like I'm a man, I

52:44

have a name, And then when they reject

52:47

him because of the tape, and also

52:49

I think because of inherent bias, he's like, I am

52:51

not a man, I'm a monster. And it's

52:53

like, again, it's because of the outside

52:56

influences that he is doing

52:58

these bad things more so than that being like an inherent

53:01

part of his personality. Right, I

53:03

yeah, I like was it

53:06

is like a tricky I mean, it's like a tricky topic

53:09

to take on in any regard,

53:11

and it's like so present in comic books

53:14

in general that I appreciate

53:16

it, like even though it's like certainly not like a perfect

53:18

attempt to address it, but like I

53:20

thought it was like like you're saying, Caitlin, and

53:23

like it was trying to give context

53:25

to like he is not a villain

53:28

because of how he looks. He is a villain because

53:30

of how society treats him because of how

53:32

it looks. And you know, it

53:34

was interesting and I

53:36

don't know what actually

53:41

we'll come back to it. I lost it. Um

53:43

Oh. I also I saw some

53:46

reads. It's tricky because it's like I

53:49

certainly see and like can acknowledge a

53:51

lot of the able is m that's built into the character. And

53:53

then there's also moments where it's like they're

53:55

just trying to make him look more like a penguin,

53:58

and so it's like two

54:01

things kind of are happening at once. I

54:05

saw that at the time of this movie's release,

54:07

and rightfully so. I mean, and we've talked about

54:10

anti Semitic tropes and villains a number

54:12

of times, and I think that, um,

54:14

some of those are certainly present in The

54:16

Penguin as well. The point

54:18

that didn't register with me was like, here

54:21

is a villain who's being given

54:23

anti Semitic styling, who

54:26

is determined to steal babies around

54:28

Christmas, and you're like, oh uh,

54:32

yep, that is certainly what's happening.

54:34

Um, so yeah, I think that It's

54:37

like I totally agree with Karen. I think like

54:39

Danny Devitto's performance is

54:41

like so much of like what humanizes

54:43

this character. I like that he gets so much

54:46

context into why he

54:48

is the way he is. Danny

54:50

DeVito is so perfect it's hard. He's

54:52

perfect, and Danny DeVito I think again, not

54:55

to keep just talking about his performance, but the fact that

54:57

he never plays

54:59

also like a joke goes a long,

55:01

long, long, long long way towards this kind

55:04

of coming off better, I guess, because I think you

55:06

could very easily play it as like, Oh, he's

55:08

so funny and weird look at him, But I

55:10

don't think he ever plays it that way in the movie.

55:13

Yeah, yeah, for sure. The

55:15

thing that puts me off

55:18

about him the most as

55:20

far as his like villainous

55:23

qualities, is his like

55:25

predatory, like sexual predatory

55:27

behavior, where like

55:31

he says stuff like, oh, I'd like to

55:33

fill her void, and he just

55:35

like is actively groping people and

55:38

sexually harassing them. I viewed

55:40

that, though I didn't view that as like tying

55:42

into anything that had to do with his physical appearance.

55:44

I viewed that as like him getting corrupted

55:47

by power the second he gets a little

55:49

bit of power, because that's like, because like the

55:51

coolest part about his character is like he

55:54

at the beginning, it's like you can totally

55:57

see like he wants to funk over Gotham because

55:59

he's been so thoroughly rejected

56:01

and isolated from the society he should

56:03

have been growing up in but then the second

56:05

he gets a little taste of power, he immediately

56:08

is like horrible to everybody

56:11

in all the expected ways, which I think is like

56:13

an awesome whatever. It's a it's a it's

56:15

a it's a good arc we know, we

56:17

know this arc um. Oh, that

56:19

was what I was thinking. It was earlier,

56:22

was I feel like I mean, And there's plenty

56:25

of criticisms of Tim Burton. I wasn't

56:27

even going to get into them today really because we've talked about

56:29

them in previous episodes. But I

56:31

do think that like something that he dealt

56:34

with well in a lot of examples,

56:36

especially in this era of his is like taking

56:39

another character and building

56:42

them out to be someone that you can empathize

56:44

with, even if ultimately they're like doing

56:47

the wrong thing. And so for

56:49

like it's like, yeah, I guess

56:51

like the penguin in Tim

56:53

Burton and Mark Water's hand because

56:56

this was written by the guy who wrote Heathers

56:59

um like You've got two That is Daniel

57:02

Waters. Oh sorry, Daniel Waters. Mark

57:04

Waters is his brother who

57:06

directed Mean Girls. Yeah,

57:09

the whole Waters dynasty situation

57:12

apparently, but yeah, Daniel Waters

57:14

wrote Heather's Tim Burton

57:16

liked Heathers, and he liked that Daniel

57:18

Waters had no knowledge about Batman

57:22

Um and didn't care about Batman Cannon and

57:24

like it just like we're two people who were

57:26

known for dealing with humanizing

57:29

misfits well and so for

57:33

I think that they did a pretty good job. But I also, you know,

57:35

totally understand all of the criticisms

57:37

around the penguin as well. Yeah,

57:40

I think, I mean, I don't

57:42

know, it is very of its time in a way, like

57:44

even thinking about the uh,

57:47

like phone sales

57:50

calls that Selena Gas where they're like, oh, if

57:52

you wear this at the office, your boss is going

57:54

to invite you to day late, like it's so

57:57

gross, and

57:59

Max's houltree ement of her, and then even to an extent

58:01

like Bruce where he's just like he sees her and he's like, Oh,

58:04

that woman's hot. I want to talk to her more, right,

58:07

I think it's rare

58:09

and maybe it doesn't even happen for a man

58:11

to come into contact with Selena and not immediately

58:14

say something, even though like I think the most

58:16

egregious thing is like the two security guards

58:18

are like, yeah, I don't know if I should arrest

58:20

her or as with

58:23

her right, and you're just like, oh my

58:25

god, like okay, you can blow up those

58:27

guys. And then she's like, you're paid

58:29

too much. Also

58:33

watching her is very cathartic. Oh yeah,

58:35

absolutely. Also, Penguin turns

58:37

on Catwoman the second she's

58:39

like, yeah, I don't want to have sex with you or marry

58:41

you, and he says, and I quote you,

58:44

lousy minx. I ought to have you spade.

58:46

You sent out all the signals, and I don't

58:48

think I like you anymore, and then he

58:50

tries to kill her, has her air lifted

58:53

out of the scene. I mean, it's an incredible,

58:55

incredible way to get someone out of your

58:57

life. But also like he has no

59:00

little to no social interaction with people.

59:04

Don't know, I'm not trying to write off the behavior like

59:06

you should not behave that way towards anybody, but

59:08

anyway, but that no, I think that that's

59:10

like part of why this character

59:13

is like kind of endured in spite of like all this

59:15

stuff is like I

59:17

don't know, I feel like I complain about

59:19

modern movie villains a lot, and like the

59:22

movie doesn't go out of its way to like

59:24

redeem the Penguin, like

59:26

he's still a villain, but you

59:29

also know enough about him that

59:31

you do feel a little bit

59:33

bad or or in Karen's case,

59:35

are full and creeping um

59:38

when he does die,

59:40

because it's like, well, no,

59:42

like he you know, grew

59:45

up extremely disadvantaged. He

59:47

was raised by penguins. He's not

59:49

interacted with people. Um,

59:51

you know, he's dying a very horny virgin.

59:53

Like there's a lot of things that he lost

59:56

the mayor mayoral campaign. His

59:58

dad was pee wee herman. He has

1:00:00

a lot of baggage. Wait, his dad is played

1:00:02

by Paul Rubens. Yeah,

1:00:05

I didn't know, and Karen wasn't lying. Doug Jones

1:00:07

is in this movie. He plays a clown. Oh

1:00:09

my gosh, he's the he's

1:00:11

the quote unquote thin clown. Oh

1:00:13

why I mean described

1:00:16

Doug Jones in a better way. It's true,

1:00:18

Like it's right there, Oh

1:00:20

my goodness. But like but but but by

1:00:22

the time Penguin dies, I just like

1:00:25

I feel like it's kind of a weird lost art in

1:00:27

big movies to have uh, you

1:00:29

know, poetic villain that. Yeah,

1:00:32

it's like they're they're so clearly

1:00:34

a path you can see where he his life would

1:00:36

have been fine or like he would have been redeemed

1:00:39

him some way, and that's what makes that storyline

1:00:41

powerful, that he is not on it or did

1:00:43

not manage to get on it right and then like

1:00:45

the first person to like accept

1:00:48

him into society.

1:00:50

It happened to be like kind of the most evil guy

1:00:53

um where like nobody around him has his

1:00:55

best interests at his heart. Yeah, he was only doing it because he

1:00:57

was being blackmailed. And he also

1:01:00

was like, oh, I can use him as a political pond

1:01:03

so I can build my power plant, right

1:01:06

like if if I don't know, I mean it's

1:01:08

like Penguin. By the end, you're like, yeah, he's the

1:01:10

villain. You know, he's not going to make

1:01:12

it out of the movie. But but also

1:01:14

we're frowning and it's sad, and

1:01:17

he's supposed to be thirty three years old. Yes,

1:01:23

the last thing I want to say about I feel

1:01:25

like I love I think almost across

1:01:28

the board really like the like political

1:01:30

like corrupt politics commentary

1:01:32

in this movie and like those areas

1:01:34

of the Penguin. I kind of am like kind of above

1:01:36

criticism for me, where it's like commenting

1:01:39

on how like people are

1:01:41

so influenced by media

1:01:44

narratives that make them feel like good people,

1:01:46

where it's like these are the same people that have rejected

1:01:49

and been afraid of Penguin his whole life, but then

1:01:51

there's this false media narrative constructed

1:01:54

by the penguin to be like I'm

1:01:56

good now you should feel so bad to have

1:01:58

been so horrible to me in the past. And they're like,

1:02:00

yeah, we love the penguin, now we're going to vote

1:02:02

for him. And then like he's

1:02:04

like, oh, whatever, fuck you. Um,

1:02:07

that's absolutely true. Yeah, I was

1:02:09

not. I keep interrupting you, but I was thinking about

1:02:11

that too, Like in the scene where he goes to

1:02:13

his parents grave site and it's like a

1:02:15

whole like media circus

1:02:18

out there, Like there are a lot of journalists,

1:02:20

there's a huge crowd that all are just

1:02:22

wanting to gawk at this yeah,

1:02:25

and it's like he's, uh, so there's so much

1:02:28

about this movie that you're like, oh, it's like rejecting

1:02:30

all these things where it's like he's

1:02:32

crafting his own redemption arc while

1:02:35

being completely unchanged, and like

1:02:37

people buy it because and people always

1:02:39

buy ship like that. They want to Yeah,

1:02:42

are we to understand that Penguin killed

1:02:44

his own parents, like he knew who they were and

1:02:46

at some point went and killed them and

1:02:49

that's why they're dead or did I just kind of

1:02:51

fill in some blanks. I think they just died.

1:02:53

Yeah, I didn't think that he had he

1:02:56

had killed them, Okay, but well that's

1:02:58

my headcanon that he did

1:03:00

already know who they were and he went and killed them, killed

1:03:02

Pee Wee. I mean that's going to dock him

1:03:04

a few points in my book. You really can't be

1:03:07

killing pee Wee Herman. But

1:03:10

also like the fact that they brought Pee Wee Herman back

1:03:12

for the Gotham TV show specifically

1:03:15

because they're like, we gotta get him in. It's

1:03:17

a great cameo. Anyway, He's Cannon, he is,

1:03:19

He's that Makann and know he is. It

1:03:21

makes me Also Jan Hooks is in this

1:03:23

movie. I love Jan Hooks Okay,

1:03:26

so oh yeah.

1:03:28

But then and then like just like that, they're like

1:03:30

running him on this like law and order campaign,

1:03:32

like just all this stuff where it's like, yeah,

1:03:35

I love that. The people of Gotham are also

1:03:38

always kind of like not like

1:03:41

complicit in the downfall of their city,

1:03:43

but like they kind of fall for everything,

1:03:46

and you're like well, guys, I

1:03:48

mean you really should have been reading between

1:03:50

the lines on that whole Penguin redemption narrative.

1:03:53

But you know, I guess you're gonna get attacked

1:03:56

by a clown again just

1:03:58

desserts, but like the like, oh or city

1:04:00

is so full of crime narrative also like something that we

1:04:03

see a lot in our contemporary

1:04:05

society and it's not always true. But

1:04:07

yeah, can we talk about before we get to because

1:04:09

Catwoman, I know it's like going to consume so much

1:04:11

of the discussion and rightfully

1:04:14

so. But uh, I

1:04:16

was reading about like the creative

1:04:18

production of this movie and a lot

1:04:20

of the back and forth that happened between Tim Burton

1:04:23

and Daniel Waters,

1:04:26

and something that I liked because

1:04:28

because Max Shrek. I wouldn't have known

1:04:30

this because I don't know about comic books,

1:04:33

but is an original character added to this

1:04:35

movie was not part of Batman. Cannon

1:04:37

added him in specifically

1:04:39

named after the actor Max Shrek,

1:04:42

who played I

1:04:45

liked that. You know, they wanted to

1:04:47

have like you're kind of like political

1:04:50

villain to to counter to the Penguin,

1:04:53

which is like more kind of a classic comic book

1:04:55

e villain um. And they said that they wanted

1:04:57

to do that specifically so that they like

1:05:00

decate there, like, oh, the greatest evil is often just

1:05:02

like an elected public official or like

1:05:04

a business person, and

1:05:07

it's true, and it's true. I

1:05:09

just like it ages very well in

1:05:11

that regard. I really, I really liked

1:05:13

it. And I mean I don't like the character

1:05:16

of Max Shrek is so despicable,

1:05:18

but like it just like it fits

1:05:20

in Gotham. I would prefer that to like another

1:05:23

cartoony kind of villain. And Christopher

1:05:25

Walkin plays the hell out of him. Oh

1:05:27

yeah, Oh he looks so goofy.

1:05:30

He looks great. Yeah, like it's

1:05:33

amazing. He's hot. He's oh my

1:05:35

god, Christopher Walkin is hot. And then every time everyone

1:05:37

in this movie is hot, and then we're always like, what happens

1:05:40

on the boat and Christopher walking what happened?

1:05:42

Yeah, I cannot forget that that he

1:05:44

probably does know how Natalie would died.

1:05:46

I can never forget that. TikTok,

1:05:49

you know, you gotta let us know you're getting up there.

1:05:51

And he hasn't dropped that on the Dune to

1:05:53

press tour. He's

1:05:58

like he's getting to There's

1:06:03

been too many true crime podcasts about Natalie

1:06:05

would. I just want to say this now, this

1:06:08

is the best Christopher Rock and I can do. And

1:06:10

there I was. I love it. It's

1:06:12

perfect, It's perfect. All

1:06:15

right. Shall we talk about Catwoman? Okay?

1:06:19

That costume, Oh

1:06:22

my god, it's hot.

1:06:24

Jeem So my

1:06:27

note, my notes are all over

1:06:29

the place with her. But I guess

1:06:31

just like, okay, generally speaking,

1:06:34

or to kick us off, first

1:06:36

of all, well, I love Catwoman. Incredible

1:06:38

character, amazing. Michelle

1:06:40

Peiffer as Catwoman is iconic,

1:06:43

just like she's the best one,

1:06:46

so good. What I like about

1:06:49

the Selena Slashcatwoman character

1:06:51

is I mean, she's contextualized

1:06:54

much like Penguin is

1:06:56

where you get the sense that Selena

1:06:59

is constantly being

1:07:01

undermined by men in her life

1:07:04

and her mom um.

1:07:07

She's constantly being disappointed by

1:07:09

men in her life. She is

1:07:11

inundated with pressure to please

1:07:14

men and kind of adhere

1:07:16

to rigid gender roles,

1:07:19

you know, all of this ship that she's dealing

1:07:21

with. That like she's literally

1:07:23

like putting a pink collar job. The

1:07:26

whole thing where she keeps saying like I'm an

1:07:28

assistant, it's like a secretary, Like

1:07:30

that whole distinction is so good and every yeah,

1:07:33

everyone keeps calling her secretary right,

1:07:35

And then like at work, when she tries

1:07:37

to offer some input in a meeting, she's

1:07:40

shot down. Shrek doesn't want

1:07:42

to hear what she has to say. He says something

1:07:44

like, you know, we haven't properly how to

1:07:46

feel that way about Fiona too, and she

1:07:49

I mean, exactly,

1:07:54

okay, sorry, I thought love was only true in fairy tales,

1:07:56

but

1:08:01

tributity lies within. So everything

1:08:03

about the point is Shrek

1:08:05

undermines Selena. And

1:08:08

then she goes home. You see a bit of her interior

1:08:11

life. She has all of these messages

1:08:13

on her answering machine from people

1:08:15

again either like disappointing her,

1:08:17

undermining her, like laying

1:08:20

on this pressure was kind of

1:08:22

like societal patriarchal pressure. And

1:08:25

then when she goes back to the office

1:08:28

and is murdered by her boss,

1:08:31

that's obviously like the catalyst that turns

1:08:34

her into catwoman.

1:08:37

You know, Skimble Shanks is like Miamio and

1:08:39

she's like a catwoman, and he's

1:08:41

like back from work, back from the clown

1:08:43

train, I work on um.

1:08:46

And then she criticizes skimble Shanks for

1:08:48

not paying rent, which if true, is wild

1:08:50

because he we are to understand that he has a job.

1:08:53

That's right. He's one of the few cats that makes money,

1:08:55

so he should be paying rent. He's

1:08:58

rich. Um, he works

1:09:00

on a train. What is it going to use all that

1:09:02

cat money for? He's a cat and

1:09:05

he takes it so seriously. That's the

1:09:07

whole song is about how seriously he

1:09:09

takes his job and exactly how he does

1:09:11

it. He's like, I'm on time every

1:09:14

day and the train just kind

1:09:16

of can't run without me. I

1:09:18

saw it at the Pantages a

1:09:20

couple of weeks ago, and

1:09:23

he didn't tap in the stage

1:09:26

adaptation. Heck,

1:09:28

I know Mr must Files

1:09:30

tapped, and well Mr m is a

1:09:32

classic tapper, but he's like not

1:09:34

a tapper in the movie, but he

1:09:36

is a tamper on stage. I knew

1:09:39

that, but I didn't know that there was no Skimble

1:09:41

Shanks tapping. I mean, it was a lovely dance,

1:09:44

but I did walk away disappointed.

1:09:46

It's a lot more of like this. It's

1:09:49

yes now is

1:09:51

Skimble Shanks taking up space? Of course,

1:09:54

during the number he's taking up He's taking

1:09:56

up space the way that Sebastian Maniscalco

1:09:58

does during his specials. He's back and forth

1:10:01

back and forth, like but

1:10:04

but it just wasn't quite the tap number I

1:10:06

was expecting. Yeah, I'm sorry, Catwoman.

1:10:09

Yes, okay, another little

1:10:12

context defect. And again

1:10:15

I don't want to get in the habit of hand to get to

1:10:17

dim Burton too hard. He has a

1:10:19

lot of baggage. But

1:10:21

I guess when they were developing the scriptum According

1:10:24

to scholarly journal Wikipedia, Burton's

1:10:27

only instruction to Daniel

1:10:29

Watters writing the script was that Catwoman had

1:10:31

to be more than a sexy vixen and

1:10:34

like so he it was a definite point

1:10:36

of like we need to understand how she gets from

1:10:39

zero to Catwoman. It's not just sexy

1:10:41

lady and suit do crime and

1:10:43

be a girlfriend. Which is why I think she

1:10:45

really works in this movie, like she has more

1:10:47

to do. Like I think that's kind of the fatal

1:10:49

flaw of like the other like film Catwoman that

1:10:52

we've seen where they don't

1:10:54

have as much to do or there's kind of too much assumed

1:10:56

that we would know about her already, that

1:10:58

she falls kind of flat. That this line is

1:11:00

like she rules, I understand

1:11:03

her, talked about him like she's great and she

1:11:05

has like a real struggle like

1:11:08

I'm trying to I

1:11:10

I are. Honestly, most of the Robert Pattins

1:11:12

in Batman movie, I know, I liked it, but

1:11:14

most of it's already left my brain. But

1:11:16

Colin Farrell a little the strongest impression

1:11:19

in that movie. Yeah, I liked him,

1:11:21

and I love Zoe Kravitz, but it's like her Catwoman

1:11:23

was so cool that it wasn't like, oh,

1:11:25

I wonder if she's going to get out of this. It's like, well, she's

1:11:27

so cool, she's probably gonna get out of it. Michelle

1:11:30

Peiffer's Catwoman. I genuinely was

1:11:32

like, I don't know what's going to happen now. She's very

1:11:34

chaotic. Yeah, the stakes are so

1:11:36

high for her, and you know that right away, and

1:11:38

you also like, I guess

1:11:40

I'm curious what you both thought about

1:11:43

this, because I I, you know, I think

1:11:45

that we're to believe

1:11:47

that like Selena is like unraveling

1:11:49

as the story goes on, She's

1:11:51

like losing her you

1:11:53

know, grip on reality. But I

1:11:56

thought that for the most part, that was like well

1:11:58

contextualized enough that it didn't super

1:12:01

bother me. Like when she goes nuclear on her

1:12:03

house, I was like, yeah, totally.

1:12:05

There comes a day you just died and came

1:12:07

back like of course, yeah,

1:12:10

I'm not going to call that overly emotional

1:12:12

behavior. I think it makes

1:12:14

sense, right, because she's reacting

1:12:16

to all of this stuff that she

1:12:18

had been dealing with prior to that,

1:12:20

the most drastic being that she was murdered

1:12:23

by her boss. But like

1:12:25

she to me, I see her transformation

1:12:28

as like an extremely liberating

1:12:30

and empowering moment for

1:12:32

her because she comes in, she

1:12:35

destroys all of the pink

1:12:37

stuff, the her dollhouse,

1:12:40

her stuffed animals, She's

1:12:42

spray painting things black to make like

1:12:45

her house goth. She pulls out like

1:12:47

the one black leather coat she has

1:12:49

and she's like, this is my outfit now. So

1:12:51

she's like rejecting femininity, like

1:12:53

traditional femininity in this

1:12:55

way. But I don't think the movie is saying like

1:12:58

feminine things bad, Like yeah,

1:13:00

I don't think so either. It's more just like she's

1:13:04

I think, fed up with the

1:13:06

expectation to adhere to very

1:13:09

rigid, hyper feminine gender

1:13:11

roles and she's like,

1:13:13

funck this, Like I'm going to break out of this

1:13:15

prison basically of

1:13:18

gender role constraints and unleash

1:13:21

havoc on the world. What I don't

1:13:24

quite get about her character

1:13:27

is while I think she has a really cool

1:13:29

internal conflict like you mentioned Jamie,

1:13:31

as far as like she's struggling with this dual

1:13:33

identity, she doesn't really know who

1:13:35

she has become. This transformation

1:13:38

is like really messing with her mentally

1:13:41

and emotionally. Her external

1:13:43

conflict doesn't really make any sense

1:13:45

to me. She wants to take

1:13:47

down Batman for why.

1:13:51

I assume she wanted to take down Max

1:13:53

s Trek and knew that and felt that Batman

1:13:55

would be an obstacle for that because like

1:13:57

obviously what she was trying to do is assassinate

1:13:59

of his This man basically is not going to allow

1:14:02

that to happen on his watch no matter what. That makes

1:14:04

more sense, That's how because I was

1:14:06

like a little unclear in that at first, but

1:14:08

then I was like, oh, Selena is one

1:14:10

thing I actually really like about her

1:14:12

is she goes full girl

1:14:14

boss babe, but she like she is

1:14:17

like very strategic in the way she

1:14:19

does stuff where it's like if she has to manipulate,

1:14:22

like emotionally manipulate Batman in

1:14:24

one scene to like neutralize him temporarily

1:14:27

and then go over to the penguin,

1:14:29

you know, like get what she needs from him, and it's like

1:14:31

all very strategic and like Batman

1:14:34

is such a like I

1:14:36

was gonna say loser. He's not a loser,

1:14:38

but like he's so like lawful good

1:14:41

that you know, and his whole thing is he doesn't kill

1:14:43

people and she straight up does

1:14:45

some I know, which

1:14:47

I think Batman heads don't Like,

1:14:50

I don't care it works in the movie.

1:14:53

I'm not that mad about it. I like that Daniel Waters,

1:14:55

like he has so many quotes about

1:14:58

being like saying like, I don't

1:15:00

care about pleasing fans. Comic book

1:15:02

fans mean nothing to me, Like they

1:15:04

shouldn't let me kill Selena. But it

1:15:07

makes more sense if Batman kills people, and

1:15:09

you're just like, man damn Daniel

1:15:11

to borrow a phrase, Um,

1:15:15

he just he just doesn't give a

1:15:17

rat's ass when it comes to great which

1:15:20

I do. I think that mores honestly

1:15:22

more uh screenwriters for like

1:15:24

big franchises, they should hire more people

1:15:26

who don't give a ship because that's the only way you get new stuff.

1:15:28

Tony Gilroy, this is why Andor is good

1:15:30

because he hates Star Wars. Really,

1:15:33

I hate Star Wars. Yeah, and is

1:15:35

so good. It's like I'm talking, I'm

1:15:38

gonna watch it still. There's an entire arc

1:15:40

about the prison complex. Like it's

1:15:42

wild interesting, it's really really

1:15:44

good. Yeah, maybe less fans should

1:15:46

be hired. And this is how I'm going to get to write a big

1:15:48

franchise movie. I'm like, I don't know, you should hire

1:15:51

me. I don't know anything. Um,

1:15:54

but like Batman is so like there

1:15:57

you know, all the obvious observations about

1:15:59

Batman been made also on this show,

1:16:01

uh where it's like he's a billionaire and her,

1:16:04

but like, but I think for this

1:16:06

that doesn't even really come into it that much.

1:16:09

Those are the kind of obvious criticisms of him.

1:16:11

But like that scene at the end where

1:16:13

they're like he's coming in lawful

1:16:16

good and he's like we just

1:16:18

need to like bring him to the

1:16:20

police and it'll be fine. And

1:16:22

Selena is like, what the funk are you

1:16:24

talking about? Like this guy lives

1:16:26

above the law and so do we, and

1:16:29

he's like, no, cops are

1:16:31

amazing. I love God and p D and

1:16:33

like, Commissioner, my

1:16:38

only friend, my only friend

1:16:40

is a cops are I was like, God, so pathetic,

1:16:42

But like whatever, But

1:16:45

I just I just loved how like I

1:16:47

don't know, like in a way that totally fits

1:16:49

like cartoonishly explicit that conversation

1:16:52

is and that he doesn't win her over

1:16:54

like that was I was sort of like nervous

1:16:56

that whole scene of like, oh God, is he going

1:16:58

to win her over? Is she gonna be like you're

1:17:01

right, let's just bring him downtown

1:17:03

and like get him locked up or

1:17:06

another fear. This was like a Spider Man two

1:17:08

based fear, whereas like

1:17:11

is Batman going to get the killing blow on Max

1:17:13

Shrek or something? Because I always forget Batman's not supposed

1:17:15

to kill people, So I was like, oh, is he going to get to do it?

1:17:18

That would suck because it's so clearly

1:17:20

Selena's kids to do it.

1:17:23

But none of that happens. Batman is

1:17:25

literally like knocked out for

1:17:27

for Selena to get her killing blow in. Honestly,

1:17:30

his part in the final scenes is so funny because he gets

1:17:32

knocked out and then you see him sort of like in the distance

1:17:35

sort of standing up and like here around and see what's

1:17:37

going on as these six penguins, uh

1:17:39

score the body of the penguin into the water, like,

1:17:42

can you imagine being Bruce Wayne in that moment, being like,

1:17:44

huh, like what's going on? Oh, the penguins

1:17:46

are like having a funeral service, and

1:17:49

then Batmans goes like,

1:17:52

oh, I gotta go. And

1:17:55

then Batman goes over to like the rubble

1:17:57

and like clear some of it away, and he's

1:18:00

ease Max Shrek just as

1:18:02

like a yeah, like a burnt to a crisp

1:18:04

dead dude. Catwoman's

1:18:06

nowhere. It's really good. It's

1:18:09

awesome. But I liked I totally

1:18:11

agree with what you guys are saying about Catwoman and her

1:18:13

I guess spectrum of femininity, because

1:18:15

I think that's one of the fun things about this movie, and

1:18:18

I think something that will be relatable

1:18:20

to anyone who has ever sort of questioned how

1:18:23

to present gender in any way.

1:18:25

Where the scene where she saves

1:18:27

that woman from being raped on the street, she's

1:18:30

like, oh, you make it so easy, always waiting for

1:18:32

someone to come save you. I think that's like a

1:18:34

sort of thing that we all wrestle with, where it's like, even

1:18:37

if you want to present in a very traditionally

1:18:39

feminine matter, or that's what you like

1:18:41

more and what you want to do, Like the

1:18:44

stereotypes that have been laiden onto.

1:18:47

These particular aesthetics are so loaded

1:18:50

and what people tell you about

1:18:52

like when, for instance,

1:18:54

like someone is sexually assaulted, like so much

1:18:56

of the language is about like, oh, well, what were you doing in

1:18:58

that situation? So yeah,

1:19:01

where I don't know, it's it's

1:19:03

interesting to watch her struggle with that. Like they

1:19:06

obviously don't go all the way into

1:19:08

like just talking about gender politics

1:19:10

in this movie, but it's a very interesting

1:19:12

thing to touch on in general, because

1:19:15

like the iconography of Catwoman

1:19:17

in this movie, where she turns into this like all

1:19:20

leather like girls dominatrix

1:19:23

style, like has such

1:19:25

an impact on how we now perceive like quote unquote

1:19:27

strong female characters because they're like, oh, like

1:19:29

they have to be sexy but also shoot

1:19:32

a gun. And it's like, no, like that's

1:19:34

not what constitutes like

1:19:36

strength for any character, or like

1:19:38

you don't have to present in one way or anything or

1:19:40

the other to be considered strong. But anyway,

1:19:43

right, because her sexualization

1:19:46

is something I was grappling

1:19:48

with because she when she

1:19:50

transforms into Catwoman, she becomes like

1:19:53

I would say, one of the hottest movie

1:19:55

characters of all times, absolutely

1:19:58

a sexual awakening for were I

1:20:00

think most people who feel sexual feelings.

1:20:03

One of the IMDb trivia things for

1:20:05

this is that people kept stealing

1:20:08

like the one sheet of her like because

1:20:11

and like to the point that they had to like start putting

1:20:13

like cops out to watch like busses

1:20:16

and like signage post and ship to make

1:20:18

sure they would stop stealing them our

1:20:20

tax dollars at work, people guarding

1:20:23

sexual images of Michelle

1:20:25

Peifer like. A

1:20:28

friend of the show, Sammy Junio had

1:20:30

this to say, Michelle Peifer

1:20:32

as Catwoman is a gay awakening

1:20:35

for a lot of queer folks. And

1:20:37

gay awakening is also what I announced

1:20:40

into my empty apartment when I get out of bed

1:20:42

for the day. So Sammy

1:20:45

making a Google but

1:20:49

I did, I mean my my feeling on it was like

1:20:51

I understand why, Like it

1:20:54

almost feels like the sort of thing

1:20:56

where for me it really

1:20:58

works in the context of this movie, and

1:21:00

I understand how like people could take

1:21:02

the most base interpretation

1:21:04

of it and lift it for other movies in a

1:21:06

way that is like net negative.

1:21:09

But I don't think that that's Michelle Feiffer

1:21:11

Catwoman's fault. I feel like, no, no, it's

1:21:13

a very like Mr Hollywood takeaway to be like,

1:21:16

Okay, so you know she

1:21:18

people really liked this character and it's

1:21:20

probably because she was wearing a skin

1:21:22

tight suit and had a gun and it's like, well, that

1:21:24

was a part of it, but also I

1:21:27

like, but also the other stuff. It's not nothing.

1:21:30

It was definitely a good chunk. But

1:21:32

also it's like the character was well written.

1:21:34

She was really strongly motivated and like, yeah,

1:21:37

I sort of viewed like her being

1:21:39

sexualized. I don't think it's ever like endorsed

1:21:42

by the movie explicitly,

1:21:44

like especially when it's um

1:21:46

Shrek or the Penguin and

1:21:49

and I don't know, I felt like her

1:21:51

sexualization at least with

1:21:53

like the outfit and her behavior was

1:21:56

more like she's like all of a sudden

1:21:58

confident, like sexual confident and

1:22:00

like into herself in a more

1:22:03

about her Yeah, And I

1:22:05

liked that, like the visual representation

1:22:08

of that. And obviously it's a very like

1:22:10

you know, Western beauty standards visual

1:22:14

interpretation of that, but I thought it worked

1:22:16

that it's like, oh, this is like a woman who has

1:22:18

felt so pushed down by all

1:22:20

these different forces and now she's finally

1:22:23

like, oh I'm fucking hot and cool.

1:22:25

And I can like do whatever I want

1:22:27

and that's cool, that's fun is

1:22:30

and that's like, that's what I was grappling with.

1:22:32

Where Like, on one hand, you could

1:22:34

easily argue that her sexualization

1:22:36

is very much on her own terms. This

1:22:39

is how she chooses to present this

1:22:41

is a manifestation of her newfound

1:22:45

confidence. But on the other hand,

1:22:47

you could argue that it was the

1:22:49

male screenwriters and directors

1:22:51

who chose to present a female character in

1:22:54

this way. But

1:22:56

but because like her being

1:22:58

sexualized in this story isn't predatory

1:23:01

in terms of like the way the camera views

1:23:03

her. It's not like male

1:23:05

gazzy linger e cinematography.

1:23:08

It's more just like and this is how the character

1:23:11

is now presenting it pretty objectively in

1:23:13

my opinion, So yeah,

1:23:16

I was like pretty fine with it.

1:23:18

Yeah, I totally agree with that as also objectively

1:23:21

into it because it's like Michelle

1:23:24

Phiffer and also

1:23:26

her performance there is a really good It was

1:23:28

from like I think five or so years ago for

1:23:30

the anniversary of this movie.

1:23:33

It was a really nice piece by

1:23:36

uh right. We've cited many times on this show.

1:23:38

Angelica, Jade Bastian and Vulture

1:23:41

wrote this nice ode to Michelle

1:23:43

Pheiffer as Catwoman, and just like how her

1:23:46

like will link it in the description

1:23:48

of this episode, she she directs you to

1:23:50

several ways that Michelle Peiffer

1:23:53

was talked about in the press where

1:23:55

I think that also, and this gets me

1:23:57

into like Lolita podcast brain kind

1:23:59

of like how I think

1:24:01

a lot of like the takeaway of how

1:24:04

Catwoman was presented was shaped by how the media

1:24:06

talked about it versus what actually happens in the

1:24:08

movie, because all, yeah,

1:24:12

right, where you

1:24:14

know, in context, she's taking control

1:24:17

of her own sexuality and presenting the way she wants

1:24:19

to present. But the way that, like

1:24:21

she was profiled at the time, the way she was talked

1:24:23

about in the media, was very

1:24:25

it like had nothing to do with Michelle

1:24:27

Pfeifer's performance, which I think is like really

1:24:30

awesome. Her performance is great,

1:24:32

Yeah, And I mean that's just very

1:24:35

indicative of the way women

1:24:38

tend to be perceived, because people

1:24:40

tend to value women for very specific

1:24:43

things like their physical

1:24:45

appearance and not their

1:24:47

skills or artistic talents

1:24:50

or brains. Yeah,

1:24:54

what do we think about the bat cat

1:24:56

relation? I love

1:24:59

it, I

1:25:01

don't hate it. Um it feels a little

1:25:04

like half baked kind of. But

1:25:07

it seemed to me that Bruce likes Selena

1:25:10

after like he meets her in Tricks because

1:25:14

I think he thinks she's fierce and

1:25:17

powerful and cool and that's what he's drawn

1:25:19

to her confidence. Yeah. Yeah, he literally

1:25:21

wants her to like step on him, like

1:25:24

it does kind of like that's the kind of he's

1:25:26

like this like shy weirdo. That's

1:25:28

like he came to this super

1:25:31

freak party hoping you'd be here. Like she

1:25:33

wants him to step on him, and

1:25:35

she would, but she's busy. Yeah, she's

1:25:37

booked it busy. She's busy killing Max Strick.

1:25:40

She's literally like, there's a bedroom in the other room

1:25:42

if you want to like get this done. Yeah.

1:25:46

I love how horny she is. And he's like, whoa,

1:25:49

whoa, what we

1:25:51

had superhero movies could be He was so horny.

1:25:53

It's so they're so like so funny.

1:25:55

The scene where they like first fight and she's like,

1:25:57

you can't hit me, I'm a woman. He's like, okay, so

1:26:00

you're right. I'm so sorry, and then she kicks

1:26:02

him in the faces. I wrote all

1:26:04

of this down because I love this good.

1:26:06

It's great. That's the first fight between

1:26:08

them. They're fighting, she's holding

1:26:11

her own but he knocks her down and

1:26:13

then she says, how could you I'm a woman,

1:26:15

and then he's like, oh, I'm sorry, and

1:26:17

then he like goes to help her up, but

1:26:19

it was a trick. She kicks him. She gets

1:26:21

the upper hand and knocks him over a ledge,

1:26:24

so he's like dangling there, holding on by her

1:26:26

whip. And then she was like, as I was saying, I'm

1:26:29

a woman and can't be taken for

1:26:31

granted, and that's when she says, life's

1:26:33

a bit now, so am I,

1:26:35

And we're like, She's

1:26:38

got a lot of great lines. It's

1:26:40

really really fun. I

1:26:42

really do like how like cartoony

1:26:45

the script is even at the beginning where

1:26:47

it's all of her like single

1:26:51

lady lines are so weird

1:26:54

but funny, where she's like it

1:26:57

just it's literally sounds like a comic strip

1:26:59

where you walk in you're like, honey,

1:27:02

I'm home. Oh wait, I don't have

1:27:04

a husband. I'm like, that's a cavy strap,

1:27:06

and then like the single cam like laugh track.

1:27:08

Yeah, it's it's so especially

1:27:11

because they like go so hard against

1:27:13

it and that in the rest of the movie

1:27:15

that it like totally works. I

1:27:18

loved that she uses the clown taser

1:27:20

at the end. She kept the clowns

1:27:22

taser um planning

1:27:25

payoff baby um

1:27:27

the only thing that kind of like pinged

1:27:30

for me. And we just talked about something similar

1:27:32

on the Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's

1:27:34

Dead episode where a female

1:27:36

character's wait gets just

1:27:39

kind of mentioned. There's a moment where Selena

1:27:42

is like, she and Bruce are talking

1:27:45

and they're kind of commenting on the

1:27:47

news coverage, like the media coverage of

1:27:49

Batman and Catwoman, and

1:27:52

Selena says something like, oh, you

1:27:54

know, there's like this rumor going around that Catwoman

1:27:56

is thought to weigh a hundred and forty

1:27:58

pounds, as if she thinks that's

1:28:01

too much and she doesn't weigh that much, and she

1:28:03

resents that people think she's she

1:28:06

weighs more than she actually is. Really

1:28:09

jumped out in that moment because you're I

1:28:12

honestly was like confused

1:28:14

by that line at first, because I was like, what

1:28:16

is even being said, because that's just

1:28:19

like it's whatever I mean that

1:28:22

I do. We've talked about that before too, was like that that's

1:28:24

like the kind of ship that gives young

1:28:26

people eating disorders, as

1:28:28

someone who famously had

1:28:30

my my e D cranked up

1:28:32

to an eleven by an offhand line

1:28:34

in a Family Guy episode, Uh,

1:28:37

you really can't be it's

1:28:39

like the numbers specifically that really bugs

1:28:43

me where it's like, yeah, I don't

1:28:45

know, Yeah, that that was like a very

1:28:47

bizarre one. It's just a lazy choice

1:28:49

to make like the one female

1:28:52

character in the movie mention

1:28:54

her weight or be concerned about her weight. And

1:28:56

as these movies always do act

1:28:59

in such a way that women being concerned

1:29:01

about their image and their

1:29:03

weight just happens in

1:29:05

a void has nothing to do

1:29:08

with the societal pressure

1:29:10

we place on women

1:29:13

for how they look. So yeah,

1:29:15

that line, that line bumped me out.

1:29:18

There's a really funny um I stand it

1:29:20

to you, Caitlin, there's a really Dani

1:29:22

Schwartz like three years ago, Live

1:29:25

tweeted this entire movie and also called

1:29:27

out that line of like what are they saying

1:29:29

here? Like truly was oh

1:29:31

no, And then if you think

1:29:33

about it for a second, you're like, oh, I guess brain

1:29:36

where it was like that messaging

1:29:39

was kind of like approaching and all time high

1:29:41

because we're in like the what is

1:29:43

that Kate moss quote whatever

1:29:46

that era food

1:29:48

doesn't taste as good as skinny field or whatever. The fuck?

1:29:51

Yeah? Remember

1:29:53

we were ever you know the words

1:29:56

that shaped and haunted us? Um?

1:29:58

Yeah, so yeah,

1:30:00

I I also clocked that. Unfortunately

1:30:03

it's one line and doesn't really come

1:30:05

up again. Yeah. The

1:30:07

last I think one of the last things I have

1:30:10

is um the scene where she goes

1:30:12

on the date with Bruce.

1:30:15

She makes the first move and it's intense.

1:30:18

Okay, it is possibly

1:30:20

a surprise kiss because she lunges

1:30:22

at him. She does lunge at him.

1:30:24

However, he has just said that

1:30:27

he wants to kill, wants to kiss. So I felt

1:30:29

like, maybe I'm giving Catwoman a

1:30:31

pass on that one. She came in hot. Yeah, but

1:30:34

I'm gonna give her. She came in hot. She

1:30:37

was like, I cannot wait to kiss you. Will

1:30:39

you let me? And she's like I

1:30:42

see that, and I raise you. I'm going to kiss

1:30:44

you by pouncing on you like a cat. She's

1:30:46

like, I might actually eat you. Um,

1:30:50

but yeah, I don't know. I think that like their

1:30:53

relationship, Like it doesn't. I just

1:30:55

it's like so nice to see horny super

1:31:00

horny woman visibility. I

1:31:02

love it incredibly horny.

1:31:04

It's good. Yeah, I

1:31:07

do like because we talked about

1:31:10

the trope of a woman using a frying pan

1:31:12

as a weapon. She uses a frying

1:31:14

pan, but it's to smash up

1:31:16

her own apartment. I

1:31:18

liked it, followed by the line where

1:31:20

she says, I don't know about you, miss Kitty,

1:31:23

but I feel so much yummier, iconic,

1:31:25

iconic, so good. I'm gonna

1:31:28

start saying that to Flee

1:31:29

Um and

1:31:32

he's going to love every damn second of it, or I'm

1:31:34

disowning. Oh

1:31:37

the stakes are high. Yeah, the stakes are high from Mr

1:31:39

Flee I will say every time I watched this

1:31:41

movie. So right after she transforms

1:31:44

into Catwoman and then she's on

1:31:46

the prowl, as you might say,

1:31:48

on the streets of Gotham, the first thing

1:31:50

she does as Catwoman is to save

1:31:53

a woman from being sexually

1:31:55

assaulted by Oops, one of

1:31:58

the few people of color in the movie,

1:32:00

which unfortunately is very in line with

1:32:03

like Tim because

1:32:05

his movies are so aggressively white that he's

1:32:07

even defended it um,

1:32:09

which was like, why would I play non white people

1:32:11

in my movie? And we're like Tim, what

1:32:14

did he say? Wait? Was

1:32:16

was I'd have to look up the exact quote. We've discussed

1:32:18

it on the show before. I think that this was around because

1:32:21

he it was like to the point where he had to like

1:32:24

walk this back. This was Did

1:32:27

it have something to do with the Miss Peregrine's

1:32:30

Peculiar Children House

1:32:33

Peregrine Home for Peculiar Children? Yeah,

1:32:36

okay. He said this to writer

1:32:38

Rachel Simon in and

1:32:41

it was on the Miss Peregrine um Press

1:32:43

Stork, he said. Quote. Nowadays

1:32:46

people are talking about it more, he says,

1:32:48

regarding on screen diversity. But quote,

1:32:51

things either call for things or they don't. I

1:32:53

remember back when I was a child watching The Brady

1:32:55

Bunch and they started to get all politically correct,

1:32:57

like okay, let's have an Asian

1:33:00

child and a black child. I used

1:33:02

to get more offended by that than just I

1:33:04

grew up watching black sploitation movies,

1:33:06

right, and I said that's great. I

1:33:08

didn't go like, Okay, there should be more

1:33:10

white people in these movies. Unquote it

1:33:13

it's just like the most white.

1:33:19

This is the same as like every time anyone complains

1:33:21

about their people clear casting anything

1:33:24

like Star Wars or something, and

1:33:27

the logic of like, oh, they can have their own

1:33:29

movies and it's like no, like this is

1:33:32

not you can't talk like this. You can't don't

1:33:34

stop stop talking,

1:33:37

like shut your

1:33:39

mouth, Tim Burton. So that's like, especially

1:33:42

remembering him making those

1:33:44

comments, like seeing that you're just like this is

1:33:46

like a very intentional joy. This is intentional

1:33:49

absolutely. So Catwoman

1:33:51

is saving another woman from being

1:33:53

sexually assaulted and

1:33:55

then the woman's like, oh my gosh, thank you. But

1:33:57

then Catwoman kind

1:33:59

of victim blames the woman and it's

1:34:01

like, well, you make it so easy. You're always

1:34:04

just waiting around for some batman to save

1:34:06

you. And so it's always at this point in the movie

1:34:08

when you see her save when you see Catwoman

1:34:10

save this other person, and I'm always

1:34:12

like, oh, she's about to go on this like vigilante

1:34:15

almost like the movie Teeth, where she's

1:34:18

like like, I'm just gonna protect

1:34:20

women and save women from these predatory

1:34:23

men. And I always think that that's the

1:34:25

direction the Catwoman character is going to go

1:34:27

in, but she quickly abandons

1:34:30

any sort of like ally ship

1:34:32

to other women and then just like goes after

1:34:34

Shrek, which I

1:34:36

don't know, I mean, it's just I

1:34:38

guess it's just like me having certain

1:34:42

once and wishes for the Catwoman character,

1:34:45

but I certainly would have liked for

1:34:47

that to be the direction that she went in.

1:34:50

But like, it's sort of the same point as

1:34:52

like when I mentioned this scene earlier where it's like

1:34:54

you can understand why that

1:34:57

is her reaction to saving that woman, Like

1:34:59

it's not right obviously, but

1:35:02

the way that she, like,

1:35:04

the social conditioning around her basically is

1:35:06

telling her this, and it's also why she rejects

1:35:09

that kind of more feminine aesthetic as Cat

1:35:11

Woman. Yeah. I honestly

1:35:14

wasn't like super bugged by

1:35:16

that, Like I think it makes

1:35:18

a point. Yeah, yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah,

1:35:21

I think the only the only thing that I felt

1:35:23

like in this movie was like characterizing

1:35:25

the was it like ice princess, or

1:35:27

like characterizing her as such a

1:35:29

bimbo, very dizzy, as

1:35:32

a as a proud bimbo and a bimbo

1:35:34

apologist. I just feel like, yeah,

1:35:36

making her just kind of a classic bimbo.

1:35:39

Yeah, it's a little cruel. Yeah,

1:35:41

I mean it's such a small part of the movie, but unless

1:35:43

she gets murdered, Yeah, it's always like a

1:35:45

while like a movie where it's like, oh, we can only

1:35:47

have one woman we're really thinking

1:35:50

about in the movie, like we can't characterize

1:35:52

more than one that would be whatever.

1:35:55

I feel

1:35:59

like the only other woman besides

1:36:01

Catwoman and the Ice Princess who has

1:36:03

any significant screen time. And

1:36:05

it's not as though this woman has a lot. But there's

1:36:08

a million of penguins. She

1:36:10

has a little dog love her. She

1:36:12

seems to be one of penguins, like right

1:36:15

hand minions. She's

1:36:19

she's high up in the ranks. What's going on

1:36:21

with her? But she doesn't speak until

1:36:23

the very end, And it's her who's like giving the

1:36:25

countdown. Is like of like, oh,

1:36:28

the penguins are going to reach their destination

1:36:31

and team minus fifteen

1:36:33

seconds. She's really just there

1:36:35

for fun. Yeah. I loved her. She's

1:36:37

there for love of the game. She is like droning

1:36:40

through narrating the height of the action

1:36:42

of the movie. She's like, the penguins are

1:36:44

going in a different direction, looks

1:36:48

like there's coming

1:36:50

towards us. I just that's

1:36:52

the kind of like Tim Burton character

1:36:54

I really like. Of just like a woman

1:36:57

who is bored by

1:37:00

something very exciting that's always

1:37:02

so fun. I uh, yeah, I liked

1:37:05

her. The dog is so cute. Yeah,

1:37:08

it's like a little busted. It's very cute.

1:37:10

It's a good dog. It's a good boy. Um,

1:37:13

feminist icon. The

1:37:15

duck Boat,

1:37:17

penguin, My god, the boat. We haven't even talked

1:37:19

about the duck Boat. It's so good. It's

1:37:22

so it's so I

1:37:25

love like, it's perfect when a movie is

1:37:27

just like and we just

1:37:29

talked about the many ways in which Tim

1:37:32

Burton is a relic at

1:37:34

this point, but I do

1:37:36

love to watch a director absolutely

1:37:38

abuse a big budget.

1:37:41

It's so fun like, it's so like

1:37:43

the It's cannon that he

1:37:46

was just like, no performance artists,

1:37:48

Let's go bigger, let's go full circus at

1:37:50

the zoo. For no reason. We

1:37:52

need animatronic penguins. We need people

1:37:54

penguins, and we need penguin penguins.

1:37:57

There's nowhere around it. Um.

1:37:59

The animal rights stuff in this movie, we can't go

1:38:01

there because Michelle

1:38:03

Fiber put a real bird in her mouth. So

1:38:07

we wish that we're the best and hope it went on

1:38:09

to thrive. Um. But

1:38:11

it's just like, this movie is so

1:38:14

The duck Boat. The duck Boat is

1:38:17

wonderful. I love it. I'm obsessed

1:38:19

with the duck Boat. The train, Why

1:38:22

is there a train. I

1:38:24

do want to shout out the penguins. They're so

1:38:27

cute. They are so cute. They're

1:38:29

very good. They frowned when the penguin

1:38:31

dies. So cute. It's

1:38:34

so sad. They're sad for their

1:38:36

friends. They're literally

1:38:38

it's it's literally like if Grew

1:38:40

died, what would happen. It's

1:38:42

exactly like if Crew died, they

1:38:44

would be beside themselves.

1:38:47

They would not the Canada that they are

1:38:49

like especially devoted to Grew because they've had

1:38:51

like other masters, right, yeah,

1:38:54

don't Yeah, they've had a lot of

1:38:56

They've worked for a lot of people, but grew as special

1:38:59

to that. But they love Grew okay,

1:39:01

because Grew takes all their boxes where

1:39:03

It's like usually their bosses

1:39:05

are really evil and also abusive

1:39:07

towards them, but grew as evil

1:39:09

and nice to them, so they love Grew. He

1:39:12

takes care of them. Okay. They

1:39:14

kind of grew up together. They

1:39:16

grew up together. They grew

1:39:19

they grew up and they grew up

1:39:22

together. There was I

1:39:24

was sitting, Okay, this is my last tangent

1:39:26

of the episode. I promised I was taking

1:39:29

a mega bus from Rhode Island

1:39:31

to New weekend, because yeah,

1:39:33

I'm kind of a fucking sleb. But

1:39:35

I was sitting next to this college

1:39:38

student who was talking on the phone with

1:39:40

one of his boys for the duration of

1:39:42

the bus. It was it was really long

1:39:44

and obnoxious, but it was just like he

1:39:47

was such a bro with like three

1:39:49

brain cells that he was really like getting

1:39:51

some good quips and every once and again like

1:39:54

he was just he was objectifying his

1:39:56

classmates the whole call boy.

1:39:58

But at one point he was like, yeah,

1:40:00

you know, Christina, she kind of really glue.

1:40:04

How do I she glew up over the summer?

1:40:06

Did I say that? Right? She blew up? And

1:40:08

then you could hear the guy on the other line and be

1:40:11

like, yeah, no, I get it. And then he just

1:40:13

like I was like, oh

1:40:15

god, that's incredible.

1:40:17

She blew up. He couldn't think of the

1:40:20

word glowed amazing. He

1:40:22

was literally coming from Brown University.

1:40:24

It was just

1:40:27

how we get Max Trex out there blew

1:40:29

up over the summer. It was nasty.

1:40:33

Al Right, Well, Batman Returns? Does

1:40:35

anyone have anything else to

1:40:37

say about Batman

1:40:39

Returns? Um There was supposed to be a

1:40:41

sequel where Catwoman

1:40:44

Michelle Fifefer. Catwoman had her own own

1:40:47

story. It was supposed to also be done with Daniel

1:40:49

Waters and Tim Burton Um

1:40:51

and it follows her to

1:40:54

a like more Las Vegas e location.

1:40:58

It sounds like it would have been great, but it

1:41:00

never happened. Damn it. Here's my last

1:41:02

thing to say. Well, I guess I have like two less things. One

1:41:04

of them is I do think it's

1:41:07

funny that people complain about like Batman not being

1:41:09

in this movie enough, because ultimately it is

1:41:11

a Catwoman movie, Like Batman

1:41:13

is fairly incidental to what goes

1:41:16

on in the film. This is a movie

1:41:18

about Catwoman and the penguin, like

1:41:20

it's their movie. They are the two

1:41:23

far more strongly motivated characters,

1:41:26

and Batman is just like, well, I'm Batman,

1:41:28

so I have to stop these people. But

1:41:30

yeah, exactly, like he is called

1:41:33

to the scene, like he did not create the scene.

1:41:35

I kind of like that this movie is like comfortable

1:41:38

with Batman being a little bit boring,

1:41:41

Like yeah, because I don't even think

1:41:43

Batman is like obviously he's like not a

1:41:45

boring character, but I like that

1:41:48

this movie is sort of like, well, he's not the most

1:41:50

interesting character in the movie, and we're

1:41:52

comfortable with that he returns,

1:41:54

but you know, kind of to a more incidental

1:41:57

degree than you would imagine, Right,

1:42:00

I totally agree with that. I love

1:42:02

My second point is that dating bed is hot. We

1:42:04

should recognize that more. I think as a society.

1:42:07

Absolutely, his energy, Oh

1:42:09

my god, he's hot. He's a socialist, his

1:42:12

politics are kind of immaculate. What is

1:42:14

hotter than that? Yeah? An, he's

1:42:16

single, I think, so not

1:42:19

divorced, but I guess

1:42:21

I don't know, Like I know that he and Perlin

1:42:23

are like separated, but they're

1:42:26

not divorced. I don't find

1:42:28

that disqualifying. Yeah, if

1:42:30

he comes up, but I was like, if he

1:42:32

if he comes up on Bumble, yeah obviously,

1:42:36

no, no question. Yeah, I'll keep an eye

1:42:38

out for him on Riya. Yeah I'm

1:42:40

on Riya. Have

1:42:44

I had any luck? They're not one iota.

1:42:49

I've still not used a dating app. So I

1:42:52

was just throwing Bumble out there because I know it's

1:42:55

exists. Yeah, I was on one of them. I want

1:42:57

on dating apps for like a month and then I was like, I don't

1:42:59

think I enjoy this, and so I stopped.

1:43:01

They're not great anyway.

1:43:05

We saund like Selena Kyle at the beginning of the movie

1:43:08