0:00

On the Beckel Cast, the questions asked

0:03

if movies have women in um,

0:05

are all their discussions just boyfriends

0:07

and husbands, or do they have individualism?

0:09

The patriarchy? Zef invest

0:12

start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

0:16

Hi, welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is

0:18

Caitlin Durante. Name Jamie Loftiz.

0:20

And what do we do here? Jamie? Sorry

0:23

to go, No,

0:25

it's fine, it's a test. Well,

0:28

this is our this is our podcast about the

0:30

representation of women in

0:32

movies, using the Bechtel Test as

0:35

a jumping off point for discussion. How

0:37

did I do? That? Was so wonderful? Thank

0:39

you so much. And the Bechtel

0:41

Test, if you're not familiar, if perhaps you're

0:43

tuning in for the very first time, is

0:46

a media test. Um. And

0:48

actually I wanted to go into

0:50

a little bit more detail than we normally

0:53

do because I think this is like the perfect episode

0:55

and the perfect movie to provide

0:57

just a little more context

1:00

and talk a little bit more about the origins

1:02

of the Bechtel Test than we normally

1:04

do. You're being a real lead deb

1:07

right now. I am the

1:09

squad leader. The squad leader.

1:11

We're going to get into a fight, but

1:15

by the end we will make up and our

1:17

French one of us will be in love and the other

1:19

one will be in charge. So

1:22

you'll be in love and I'll be in charge.

1:25

That's because that's how our normal lives are right

1:27

now. Okay,

1:29

anyway, so Alison Bechtel

1:31

queer icon. She inadvertently

1:34

created the Bechdel Test in

1:36

her book Likes to Watch Out For published

1:39

in UM. I

1:41

feel like some people think that she like deliberately

1:44

set out to create this specific

1:47

media tests, but it was more than it appeared

1:51

in the book, and then that was later co opted

1:53

into the tests that we now use, and

1:55

that is widely used to apply

1:58

to you know, media and movies and things like

2:00

that. Alison Bechdel credits

2:02

the idea to her friend Liz

2:04

Wallace and to the

2:06

writings of Virginia Wolf,

2:08

specifically Wolf's essay A

2:11

Room of One's Own Um, which

2:13

is a feminist text.

2:16

The Bechtel Test is sometimes referred to as

2:18

the Bechtel Wallace test um,

2:20

which Alison Bechdel is said to prefer.

2:23

But we are jerks, so we

2:25

only call it the Bechdel Test. I love and friends,

2:27

credit friends. Yeah, it's critical it's

2:30

it's great um. And then in

2:32

the comic des to Watch Out for Um,

2:35

it has to lesbian characters, and the

2:37

context of their conversation is that there

2:39

is so little queer women representation

2:42

in movies that the only way for

2:44

them to imagine that a female character

2:46

in a movie might be a lesbian is

2:48

if she is seen talking to another woman

2:51

and they are not talking about men. So

2:54

that is the origin of

2:56

the Bechtel test. And I just

2:59

wanted to share that to

3:01

our listener. I'm less sure the original

3:03

comic on our on our Twitter. Well, I know it's

3:05

readily available, so we can do that as

3:07

well. Indeed, this history Corner,

3:10

Yeah, a new segment on every episode.

3:14

Please got no? Shall

3:17

we introduce our guests. Let's do it. I'm so excited.

3:20

We've got to today, very exciting

3:22

time. They are the hosts of

3:24

the lez Hangout podcast. It's

3:27

Lee Holmes Foster and Ellie Bridgatta.

3:31

Hi did I say that right, Brigata?

3:34

It's Bridget Bridgeta. But

3:36

I think you should change. Honestly, I love it, Brigata.

3:39

It sounds a little bit more like the

3:41

things that I love sounds like it sounds like a

3:43

beverage or bread. So

3:47

sorry for fucking up your name, but

3:51

welcome. It's all good. They literally messed up my name

3:53

at my graduation and I waited for them.

3:55

I was like, you're going to get it right. So they said it like seven

3:57

times that I finally walked does

4:00

an incredible flex. So

4:04

tell us, Lee, let's start with you.

4:06

Um, what is your history your relationship

4:08

with the movie. Oh, by the way, today's movie is Debs.

4:11

Yes, Debs is a

4:13

cult classic two thousand

4:16

technically two thousand four, but released

4:18

widely in two thousand five rom

4:21

com technically, although it feels

4:23

like a d com to me in a lot of ways

4:26

of getting a lot of d com vibes. Screens,

4:30

Yeah, so many green screens and like goofy

4:32

like kind of music.

4:35

Very d com. It's

4:38

so great. What is your experience,

4:40

Lee? Okay, So my experience so

4:42

because I'm going to say, yeah, I feel like I

4:44

first saw Debs in college,

4:47

which would make sense. That was like right after

4:49

it came out, And I

4:52

would say my experience with Debs is that for

4:54

a really really long time, when

4:56

we would try to talk to like friends

4:59

or people about like queer

5:01

movies, we would say for a

5:03

long time. There's like one like

5:06

good queer movie that's like a real movie

5:08

which has imagined me and you. And then there's like two

5:11

amazing, like campy movies, and those

5:13

are Debs and But I'm a Cheerleader. Um,

5:16

And so for a long time, Debs

5:18

was like that go to of like it's so

5:21

terrible and amazing just all at

5:23

the same time, and there

5:25

just wasn't a lot else out there, so

5:28

so you'd kind of just watched those. We

5:31

talked about this on our But

5:33

I'm a Cheerleader episode where

5:35

our guest was like, there are only two

5:37

fun lesbian movies, and

5:40

one of them is but I'm a Cheerleader and the other

5:42

one is Debs. It has been like a request

5:44

for a long time. Yes, it's such

5:46

a classic. It's such Yeah, it's such a

5:48

horribly amazing movie. The

5:50

first time that I ever saw it actually

5:52

was when I watched it with Lee podcast

5:56

yeah called Less Central. I

5:59

had never in it. Yeah, it was the first

6:01

time that I had seen it, And I

6:03

don't know why I hadn't seen it before. But I'm also

6:05

a bit younger than Lee, so

6:08

I was I was definitely not

6:10

a lesbian or I was a lesbian, but I wasn't out

6:12

when Depths came out. Um,

6:15

so I saw it for the first time then and

6:17

have since watched it probably five

6:20

or six times. Yeah,

6:22

yeah, because everything else is so depressing.

6:25

Like if you want to watch something to beat and lesbian,

6:27

like that's it. Yeah,

6:30

Jamie, what's your relationship? Like

6:33

most movies, I've never seen it before

6:36

until today and I watched and

6:38

I watched it twice in a row, and it's like

6:41

it's so at my alley in so

6:43

many ways. But it's just like the

6:46

low budge vibes you get from it, the

6:48

multitude of like the character

6:50

directors are out in this movie,

6:52

some wild character actor

6:54

choices. Uh, that outfits

6:57

are weird. I just it's it's

6:59

everything. Uh, it

7:01

looks like it costs seven dollars to make. And

7:03

I love I loved her, Donna Brewster,

7:06

and it was just she's

7:09

so good and it's weird because I don't I

7:11

haven't seen I mean, I guess I'm mostly judging

7:14

her catalog from seeing on her

7:16

on my mom's soaps when I was really

7:18

young, because she started as a soap

7:20

star and seeing her in The Fast and the

7:22

Furious movies, but this is the most personality

7:25

I've seen her ever display

7:27

ever. It was just like, I

7:30

really like this movie. Yeah, what about

7:32

you? Um I had not seen it either.

7:34

Um, I knew of it just because it had

7:36

been request It's a common request

7:40

for us to do on the podcast, and that was the

7:42

first time I learned

7:44

about it. I think it's just yeah.

7:46

I remember someone in like a college

7:49

film class I took presented on

7:51

it and being like college myself

7:53

of like, oh, yeah, I'll watch that, and then I was like, no,

7:55

I gon't watch a movie, don't

7:58

work it somehow flew under

8:00

my radar, which is unfortunate

8:02

that this like fun queer

8:04

movie was not even

8:07

in my like wheelhouse

8:09

or I just I wasn't aware of it, because I

8:11

feel like I have a pretty good handle on most

8:14

movies. Even if I haven't seen them, I've heard

8:16

of them or I know about them. Twice.

8:19

Thank you so much for bringing it up, because

8:22

you know, I don't like to mention that I do have a master's

8:24

screen screen running from Boston University, but uh,

8:27

yeah, it just when did you go to be you? I

8:29

went there between

8:34

Oh, we were probably there at the same time. Yeah,

8:37

Boston. Yeah, it's where I did my

8:39

PhD. So okay,

8:41

trying to I'm sorry,

8:44

are you are

8:47

you trying to upstage me?

8:50

I'm sorry. I found that much more impressive

8:53

degree there. At the same time, though

8:56

my blood not even

8:58

a very stressful But what did what

9:00

did you study? Chemistry? Oh?

9:03

A woman? That's that's why it's

9:05

like, not impressive at all, and no one ever wants

9:07

to hear about it. You know you're I'm not impressed

9:09

by your PhD in chemistry at all.

9:13

I think we also overlapped with a Casio Cortes

9:16

though, didn't we? Oh she was I

9:18

think she graduated inn

9:21

I think something like that sounds right, Yeah,

9:23

so I I missed her. So she and I overlapped.

9:25

So once again, this

9:30

is a this is spicy cast sy.

9:33

I'm never getting invited back to anything ever.

9:36

You have a PhD in chemistry, you can do whatever

9:39

the funk you want. Yeah,

9:41

and I didn't earned it. I didn't mean for my reaction

9:43

to be like, oh, it was more like, oh,

9:46

I wasn't expecting that. I

9:48

am actually very impressed, and you're a

9:50

woman in stem so that's great. Let

9:52

me tell you the most common response that

9:54

I think I've gotten when I if I

9:56

tell people that I have a PhD in chemistry,

9:58

I think the most common resp bonses what

10:01

else do you do? Um? Really,

10:03

so I'm not offended by any who

10:06

are these people do that? That's

10:08

fine? I want to fight these people, Lee

10:12

has spot them. Oh good, good fight.

10:15

I just tell them about my awesome lesbian podcast.

10:17

That's all. I just have

10:19

two very niche things. It's cool. Oh,

10:22

also really quick. I also got some

10:24

just taking the temp from the room. I

10:26

was also getting some Josie and the Pussycat

10:28

vibes from this movie visually, like

10:31

if Josie and the Pussycats had

10:33

like a fourth of the budget

10:36

kind of like that, that's my

10:39

statement, and like a zillionth of

10:41

the star power exactly. They're

10:44

like, we have Hall and Taylor, but we only have

10:46

her for three hours so naked

10:48

account and she'll only

10:50

film in one rooms green screen it every

10:53

time this movie takes

10:55

place in the same room, and I love it. Okay,

11:00

So should I do the recap of

11:02

the movie debs? Yes? Please? Okay.

11:05

We start with some wild voiceover

11:07

that says that there is a

11:10

secret test hidden within the s

11:12

a T that measures a student's

11:14

innate ability to lie, cheat,

11:17

fight, and kill, and

11:20

those who score well on this test

11:22

are recruited into a secret

11:24

paramilitary academy and

11:26

they call themselves Deb's

11:29

d e b s. The

11:31

like first thirty seconds of this movie, I was

11:33

like, what's

11:36

like? Watch it three times to just be like

11:38

I get the feeling they're not going to explain this

11:40

again, and they don't. They do

11:44

we ever find out what DEBS

11:46

stands for? Yes, we do,

11:49

end game? Yeah, what

11:52

is it stand for? It stands for discipline,

11:56

energy and beauty.

11:58

Oh but it's also like debutantes

12:02

because endgame is like prom basically.

12:04

Yeah, but yeah, she does doesn't

12:07

like Holland Taylor indirectly

12:10

define it, like ten minutes before the movie

12:12

is over. Yes, when

12:14

she's reprimanding Amy. A choice

12:17

was made being a big old lesbian. Yes,

12:21

your one to talk, Holland Taylor one

12:24

to talk. I know there, but

12:27

this was like pre Holland Taylor didn't come

12:29

out until a few years ago, right, she

12:32

was not out when this movie was

12:34

made. She was. She was leaving breadcrumbs

12:37

for all of us. Yeah.

12:40

Okay, so that's some of the background

12:42

on debs um. Then we

12:44

meet several of the

12:46

Debs as they're on their way to Deb's

12:49

academy. Um, almost like Santa

12:51

University was almost like Santa Universe.

12:55

Yeah, for sure, for sure. We meet Dominique.

12:58

She is French. She's always smoking a cigarette,

13:01

very sex positive, She's got many

13:03

different dudes in her bed over the

13:05

course of the movie. We

13:08

meet Janet. She's a little absent minded,

13:10

she's a little slighty. Um. We

13:12

meet Max, she is the squad

13:15

captain, and then we meet Amy.

13:18

She is the top student

13:20

at Deb's academy. She's a great spy

13:23

and she is in the middle of breaking up with her

13:25

boyfriend Bobby.

13:27

Bobby, what

13:30

a chick. They

13:32

did not do They're like, no,

13:35

no, nothing that's likable for Bobby.

13:38

Hey, Jeff Stults would have been like

13:40

hot off of his Seventh Heaven

13:42

run at this point, right, true, Oh,

13:44

I I forgot that that was where

13:47

I recognized him from. There are so many people

13:49

in this movie where you're like, oh, I know that

13:52

you're from somewhere. I

13:54

feel like he wasn't much more likable in Seventh Heaven

13:56

to me. I mean, he's pretty horrible in

13:58

this movie though. It's the worst. I

14:00

mean down to the pokah shells.

14:03

Oh my god, always bragging about

14:05

his dad that

14:07

belonged to his father, right, what is

14:09

that? Yes, he's like my dad shells.

14:13

Like, please started

14:15

this on therapy, keep your shells out of

14:17

this. Yeah. For he carries

14:19

around a collection of his father's bracelets

14:21

for some unknown racing and

14:24

it's always like urgent for him

14:26

to put the bracelet on her in midair.

14:29

It's like, no, you gotta put it on my dad's

14:31

bracelet. Now I love

14:33

it. Okay. So the four of

14:36

these debs meet up with Phipps, who

14:38

was played by Michael Clark Duncan and

14:41

Ms Petrie who is Holland Taylor

14:44

and Queer Icon, and

14:46

they're like, hey, Lucy

14:49

Diamond is back in the States,

14:51

and Lucy Diamond might be a reference

14:53

to something, um, nothing

14:55

that I've ever heard of, don't really

14:58

do a general name. So weird that

15:00

those two were to be associated. I don't know. I

15:03

feel like it's completely original and

15:06

not an allusion to anything.

15:08

Sick, just checking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

15:11

So she Lucy Diamond is a

15:13

smuggler, she's the leader of a crime

15:15

syndicate. She's turn to Brewster,

15:18

She's ridiculously hot. She's very

15:21

hot, which Amy definitely recognizes.

15:24

Yeah, oh, I just didn't expect her

15:26

to be so

15:29

good. She's straight out

15:31

of like many shampoo hair commercials,

15:34

even though no one's ever survived an encounter with

15:36

her, right, yeah,

15:38

yea. And she is planning to meet up

15:41

with an x KGB turned assassin

15:44

named Nkotchka.

15:48

I like Nikotchka a lot more. I

15:50

simply cannot pronounce names.

15:52

I think, yeah, Nikotchka were joining out

15:57

um, And so Phipps is like, hey,

15:59

to do surveillance on Lucy.

16:02

But here's the thing, it's very dangerous

16:05

because Lucy has never fought anyone who

16:07

has lived to tell about it. Amy

16:10

is especially excited because she's writing

16:12

her thesis on Lucy Diamond.

16:14

Of course she is. And are they supposed to

16:17

be at the same age? That was quite

16:19

I was like, are you right? Was she writing her thesis

16:21

on some some in her age or is she supposed

16:24

to be a little bit older. It's

16:26

really unclear in the same way that it's unclear,

16:28

like it seems like they're supposed

16:30

to be in college through this, but they treat them like high

16:33

schoolers the whole time. And they're dressed like

16:35

stereotypical private school high

16:37

school students. Well, I don't know, typical

16:39

private Yeah,

16:42

I think they would definitely be sent to the principal's

16:44

office. Yeah, they're dressed like a Halloween

16:46

costume. Oh

16:49

yeah, well we'll talk about that. But

16:52

yeah, I think they're meant to be like seniors

16:55

in college basically because they say they're in their fourth

16:57

year of Deb's academy. So Lucy is

16:59

just like a a gay dropout who blazed

17:01

her own trail and thus is essay

17:04

material. True. Yeah, hard to say

17:06

how old Lucy is

17:08

meant to be. I got the impression that she was maybe

17:10

a few years older than the debts. But

17:13

again, she's right, UM's

17:16

what we know. She's hot. She has a friend named Scud.

17:18

Yes, I don't have any more questions. And

17:22

we meet the two of them, and we find out

17:24

that Lucy is planning to meet up

17:26

with this ninotchka woman

17:29

because they are going on a blind date,

17:32

and we're like, whoa, Lucy

17:34

is a queer icon. As it

17:36

turns out, Scud is really

17:39

wanting Lucy to be in love because

17:42

that's such a good wing man. Scud

17:44

is like, it's practically his job.

17:46

Like, we don't really see him do much else other

17:49

than be like, you gotta be in love,

17:51

Lucy, move on, you got this.

17:53

I was like, damn, Scud, you're really rooting for

17:55

her. Scud is like a walking

17:58

Lesbro slash motivational poet during

18:00

human form.

18:02

Yeah, you have to be open to

18:04

love. You're so

18:06

supportive. It's great. Peaks good. So

18:08

the debs go to the restaurant for this steak

18:11

out and Lucy shows up

18:13

and she's there with her date and

18:15

it's not going very well. In a very

18:17

tall restaurant, the

18:21

ceilings are like eight ft high,

18:24

and no one ever looks up. Lucy.

18:27

It actually is a pool, if anyone

18:29

noticed, I just noticed this time.

18:32

Yeah, it's it's definitely an empty pool that

18:34

they turned into a restaurant because on the

18:36

wall it says like something about swimming,

18:39

and if you look on the sides there are little

18:42

things that say the height of it, which

18:44

is six ft, so it's not that tall. Excellent

18:49

budget they had, They're great, great,

18:52

great. So Lucy

18:54

does spot the debs who are just

18:56

like hanging out in the rafters

18:58

and so this lee to a

19:00

big shootout. Whoa, whoa, wait, it's not

19:02

that she spots them, it's that

19:05

Bobby checks,

19:12

as you're so wont to do when you're

19:15

hanging in little swings

19:17

from a restaurant's thirty foot

19:20

ceiling on an espionage didn't. They're

19:22

all in like circus swings is

19:25

part of the plan. And then like

19:27

every single one of Bobby's dad's

19:29

bracelets is a Chekhov's gun the second

19:31

it comes out, because it's just gonna

19:33

happen. I would also like to believe

19:36

that there's an entire semester's class

19:38

of Deb's Academy that is solely devoted

19:40

to balancing on those swing seats

19:43

because they like move they can like shift

19:46

them back and forth, and they returned

19:49

at all, and the

19:51

swings don't swing that much. They seem pretty

19:53

stationary. I'm interested in

19:55

this technology. Same. So

19:58

there's this big shootout and to uh,

20:00

Lucy and Amy find themselves

20:03

face to face, but instead of killing

20:05

each other, they sort of vibe

20:08

that scene. Yes, it's great. And then Lucy

20:11

gets away and she goes to Scutt

20:14

and she's like, hey, I met someone. Her

20:16

name is Amy Bradshaw, and

20:18

Scott is like, you can't like her. She's

20:20

a deb she's been, and she's like, not,

20:23

she's she's she's

20:26

the perfect score, which again we just

20:28

have some very subtle coded language

20:30

in here. And

20:33

then Lucy sneaks into Amy's

20:36

room and she's like, go out with

20:38

me. If you do, I'll tell you what you want

20:40

to know for your thesis. Janet

20:42

crosses their paths one of the other debs, and

20:45

so she and Scutt get dragged along to this

20:47

like nightclub that they

20:49

end up going to, and Amy

20:52

and Lucy start to get to know each other and then they

20:54

almost kiss, and also

20:56

Scott and Janet or five pool

20:59

table. There's a lot a lot going on. There's

21:01

a pool table. There's a bunch of people that are

21:03

like straight out of your you know, mid

21:06

two thousand's small hot topic,

21:09

so many mohawks,

21:11

it's a lot of like giant metal

21:14

ball necklaces. There

21:16

actually is the guy with a potato stack on his

21:18

end. I've

21:22

seen this movie so many times that the last time I

21:24

watched it, I paused it at a certain point because

21:26

I was like, is that a potato sack? And it was so

21:29

just letting, you know, look out for that a

21:31

lot of Easter eggs because I will watch this movie

21:33

again. I think it's so much

21:35

fun. Yeah, it's so. She

21:38

and Lucy almost kiss, but Amy is

21:40

confused about her sexuality, so she gets

21:42

up and leaves abruptly. Now we're back

21:44

at Deb's academy and

21:47

MS Petrie is all like, hey,

21:49

Amy lead this investigation to

21:51

find Lucy, and

21:54

she also gets promoted to squad captain

21:56

because they survived the Lucy encounter.

21:58

Yes, so everyone's like, wow, what a hero. And

22:01

then Max is all upset because she's like, wait a minute,

22:03

I'm squad captain. This

22:05

means there's some tension between Amy

22:07

and Max, and as they stated whilst

22:09

on the swings, they're best friends. And

22:12

also Max did something that I'm

22:15

like, Okay, this isn't what a great friend would say, but

22:17

it did make me laugh of when

22:19

she was just like, promise you'll never

22:21

go to art school. I'm like, I wish

22:24

I had a friend who had said that to me, right,

22:27

Because Amy doesn't

22:29

have that much interest in being like

22:31

a spy. She wants to go

22:33

to art school in Barcelona exactly,

22:36

which is just like, I feel like the default for

22:38

any like broody girl in the nineties

22:40

two thousand movie you just want to

22:42

be an artist for a lesbian

22:44

I mean just any less either or

22:47

right. It should have been a hint read the science,

22:49

Amy read the science. So

22:52

then, um, Lucy robs a bank

22:55

just so that the Debs will

22:57

like go and try to stop her, because she's

22:59

trying to lure Amy

23:01

there so she can get closer to her. And

23:03

then Amy's like, ah, sorry, but I'm

23:05

not romantically interested in you, Lucy. But

23:08

then also but and then in that scene,

23:10

Lucy also almost kills the Debs

23:12

and it's like it's a booby trap, and like,

23:14

um, excuse me, you almost

23:17

killed the Debs. She's

23:19

like, what a good prying. I didn't laugh about

23:21

this later, I just like, I don't know if I

23:24

want to be in a relationship

23:26

with this woman now. I mean, we'll talk

23:28

about the nature of their like the

23:30

whole um. There's some strange twists.

23:33

Yeah, So that they kiss, Lucy

23:35

and Amy kiss and Amy is

23:37

all like she changes her mind. She goes

23:40

with Lucy. The Debs all think that she's

23:42

been kidnapped, but it's really just them

23:44

hanging out, spending time together and having

23:47

a great time, which is a great

23:49

montage. Also, they do appear to be

23:51

in plain sight almost all the time. Right.

23:55

Also, the montage is confusing time

23:58

wise, because it to

24:00

me, this montage appears to take

24:02

place over the course of like many moons.

24:05

Yeah, but they do mention later that she's

24:07

only kidnapped for a week seven days.

24:09

Yes, so they really

24:11

they just kinda made it seem a little bit

24:13

more than it was. Maybe they move

24:15

really fast. I guess that let's

24:19

let's not talk about lesbian stereotypes quite

24:21

yet. But you know, also

24:23

they're in their college aged I feel

24:26

like in college a million times I would tell I

24:28

would tell anyone I loved them. After a week,

24:30

like yeah, They're like, do you love me? I'd be like, sure, I

24:33

don't know. Could be true.

24:35

So then um, Miss Petriet orders

24:38

a search for Amy, and the Debs

24:40

find her while she and

24:42

Lucy are naked and kissing, and

24:45

so, in an effort to cover up what would

24:47

be a scandal for Deb's academy since

24:50

like Amy was consorting with the

24:52

enemy, they planned to

24:54

instead they're going to name her deb of

24:56

the Year at the big end game event.

24:59

And it's Max's idea. It's Max's

25:01

idea, and she's very smart,

25:03

and she's going to give a speech to accept

25:06

this award, so to

25:08

speak, and her ex boyfriend Bobby is

25:10

going to be there with her to make it look like they're

25:12

together. Nobody has ever

25:14

been more excited to take out a girl who

25:16

has no interest in them than Bobby

25:19

is to take her to anything. When

25:22

they're dancing on the dance floor, she's literally

25:24

like standing still. He's

25:26

like busting all these moves not he

25:29

doesn't look at her at all. Bobby is such

25:31

a child, it's wild. I

25:35

was pissed when Max called

25:37

Bobby when they had

25:40

a lead on where Amy was. I was

25:42

like, man, Max, that's

25:44

not what a friend does. Don't call the ex boyfriend

25:46

who's who wears Puka Shell's never

25:49

call him. Never

25:52

guy. Ever. So we're almost at

25:54

the end of the movie. Um, everyone

25:57

is mad at Amy for her whole

25:59

like wording with the enemy thing, and

26:01

she's forced to suppress her feelings for

26:04

Lucy, and she say that she's not in love with

26:06

her, even though we know that she

26:08

is because she's wait,

26:11

sorry, super quickly, we missed a really

26:13

important part of the movie. What the montage

26:16

where Lucy Diamond decides to reform her ways?

26:18

Oh God, yes, because

26:21

in order to be in love, you do need to change everything

26:23

about yourself. So Lucy's

26:25

like, I'll do whatever it takes to win Amy back,

26:28

and so she starts to return all the

26:30

money that she stole from people with

26:32

the help and support of Scott. Scott

26:34

is they're they're singing karaoke together

26:37

and what appears to be her bedroom, like

26:39

they're just it definitely is her bedroom that they

26:41

pan out and there's four other people there. Dan say,

26:46

so it's like every crime

26:49

operation has their backup dancers. Okay, yeah,

26:51

yeah, true, especially during a reform

26:53

montage trying out, she

26:55

has a little batman signal that's Lucy

26:58

Diamond that turns into Amy be

27:00

mine. That's great.

27:03

So now we're at endgame, which was essentially

27:05

this ball prom kind

27:08

of thing, and Amy is giving

27:10

her speech and Lucy shows up

27:12

to be like, hey, I actually love

27:14

you and we should be together, which was sort

27:17

of Scott's idea. Um,

27:19

and then Amy is like, hey,

27:21

here's my speech. It's such an honor to be

27:23

a deb and blah blah blah, and then she's like, but just

27:26

kidding, and then she's yeah, she literally gives

27:28

the whole speech, and then she's like Comma

27:31

j K. And that

27:33

is why I actually need to tell you that I

27:36

love Lucy Diamond. Also,

27:38

wait, can we just come it real quick? On the speech

27:40

accepting the deb's highest

27:43

award ry, Jane,

27:46

Oh was that a week? Didn't

27:50

get it? It's just they're throwing

27:52

them left and right, damn.

27:55

Like it's taken many viewings of this movie

27:57

to just really pick out all of the first

28:00

subtle hints and you know, just hidden language

28:02

in there. There's a lot of, first

28:04

of all, really funny jokes, and I feel like a lot

28:07

of them are fairly subtle, Like there was stuff

28:09

I was picking up on I didn't pick up

28:11

on until my second viewing, and I feel like there's

28:13

still a lot of stuff that I missed. So yeah,

28:15

I'm excited to go back and rewatch it. So

28:18

Amy's like she professes her love for

28:20

Lucy, Lucy is there. There's this

28:22

big fight that unfolds, and then

28:24

Lucy and Amy are running

28:26

around the cross paths again at

28:29

the same place that they did the first time they

28:31

meet, and they're like, oh my god, let's

28:34

be together and all the debt shop and they're

28:36

like, wait, what does that mean?

28:38

That endgame took place in the pool restaurant.

28:41

Oh, I guess

28:44

the oncation scenes

28:48

they did have one building for ten days, but

28:50

that takes place and it's like a warehouse

28:52

that they're running around in. So

28:54

maybe there's the basement

28:56

warehouse under the pool restaurant, which

28:58

is also in Dev's academy.

29:01

Maybe Dev's academy.

29:03

The exterior may have been mostly a green

29:05

screen. I'm not totally sure. I

29:08

don't I guess they sort they could

29:10

have been in the pool restaurant. So

29:13

then Amy and Lucier like, yeah,

29:16

let's be together, and the DEDs are like, okay,

29:18

we accept you. And that

29:20

is pretty much the end of the movie.

29:23

They right off into the sunset they got

29:25

in Janet Get Together too. Yes, Yes,

29:28

happy endings all around. Indeed.

29:30

Um, then she has to be like, this is my

29:32

boyfriend's scud, which

29:35

is too bad. So

29:37

that's the story. We're going to take a quick break

29:39

and then we'll come right back and

29:47

we're back. Hi. Hello. There's

29:50

so much to talk about, lots to talk about.

29:52

So to start us off,

29:54

Lee and Ellie, we just wanted

29:56

to get your take on

30:00

just kind of the overall representation

30:02

as as we already kind of talked about. Um,

30:05

this is one of a very few, like

30:07

fun queer women movies

30:10

that exist at all, um

30:15

still to this day. So we just want

30:17

to kind of get your initial thoughts on like

30:19

the representation of queer women in this movie,

30:22

and just sort of your initial

30:24

take on on that. There's a lot.

30:26

There's a lot so much. I

30:29

mean, one thing we will say is

30:31

I wish it wasn't so accurate

30:34

to be like, oh, here's one

30:36

lesbian, she's a crime lord, and

30:38

here's the other lesbian, she's an overachieving

30:40

student, and they're gonna like move

30:42

in and fall in love in approximately

30:45

three hours. Um,

30:50

well we have you hauling, which, like we like to

30:52

say, is a lesbian trope that

30:54

honestly is true. Like you know what you're

30:56

like, that's a stereotype. But then you look around

30:58

at all your friends and they're all lived together and

31:00

they've been together for like six months. So

31:04

describe for us what you hauling means. Okay,

31:07

So you hauling is

31:09

a lesbian term where basically

31:12

there's a joke what does a lesbian bring on a first

31:14

date? A U haul? Basically that

31:18

move together, move in together

31:20

very quickly. I've never heard that term

31:22

before. That's funny. Oh really

31:24

I thought that, like everyone knew you hauling,

31:27

But we just live in a lesbian world, so yes,

31:30

So it's just this, it's a stereotype that lesbians

31:32

moved very quickly, fall in love

31:35

very fast, and go through like every stage

31:37

of the relationship very quickly. So

31:39

seven days isn't really that unrealistic.

31:42

I know, I wish it was less accurate,

31:44

but yeah, that's pretty accurate. I

31:47

do want to talk a little bit about one

31:50

of the things that I think is problematic

31:52

about Lucy Diamond. Yes, even

31:54

though I love her and she's so beautiful,

31:57

she is the predatory lesbian stereo

32:00

type, yes, like,

32:02

which what I mean by that is

32:04

you have in lesbian movies usually

32:07

one person who is already

32:09

out and a lesbian or

32:12

bisexual however they identify it, but they're already

32:14

out, and then you usually have

32:17

someone who's in the closet, and

32:19

you have this person who's already out pursuing

32:21

them very aggressively

32:24

and then kind of like trying to coax them, that

32:27

kind of trying to turn them in a way,

32:30

which is very problematic. So Lucy

32:32

Diamond at one point says she's

32:35

into me, but she just doesn't know it yet, right,

32:38

and then continues for the entire

32:40

movie to basically hold

32:42

Amy hostage in order

32:45

to get her to fall in love with her.

32:47

Yes, right. I found this to be

32:50

very similar to another

32:53

problematic trip that we come up

32:55

upon in hetero

32:57

romance movies, just sending predatory

33:00

a manse in general, right, like basically

33:02

framing stalking as romantic,

33:04

where she does so many different

33:07

things, where she shows up in

33:09

Amy's room various times

33:11

and uninvited, She threatens

33:13

her with a weapon to get Amy

33:16

to go out with her, She robs

33:18

a bank and then almost kills her

33:20

friends to again try to get

33:22

closer to her. I still can't get over the whole

33:24

movie track excuse him, like, who are you

33:27

kidding? And Amy also

33:29

is like, it's very sweet that you did that for It's

33:32

like, I don't know if that's the right term.

33:35

I feel like they're all things where if any

33:37

part of this movie was even a little

33:39

bit serious, it would immediately fall apart.

33:42

Yeah, for sure, because this is a very

33:45

silly, campy movie.

33:48

But yeah, that was one of the biggest things

33:50

I noticed as well, where Lucy

33:53

she is basically

33:56

stalking Amy, but it's framed

33:58

as romantic and this method of seduction

34:01

yields successful results because

34:03

they end up together and not

34:05

for nothing. I found it interesting where

34:07

I totally agree that that there's are

34:10

like elements of predatory romance between Lucy

34:12

and Amy. But Bobby kind of does the same

34:14

thing to Amy at the beginning of the movie,

34:16

where she can't get away from him and he's like, why

34:18

did you bring up with me? Why did you break up with me? And he's like popping

34:20

up on all her devices, and then he slides

34:22

in on his freaky swing. He's like, he's

34:25

like, why did you bring up with me? Here where my dad brings

34:27

let and like it. It seems like

34:29

a pattern in Amy's romantic

34:32

life, but this story doesn't really address

34:34

that well. And when when Bobby is doing

34:37

it, it's framed as she feels

34:39

as though she's being pesterred, and which

34:41

is true, it's a valid But then when

34:43

Lucy does it, it's like, oh wow, look

34:45

how much she likes Amy, and look at

34:47

all the efforts she's going through to try to get

34:49

with her, and fan keeps almost killing

34:52

other people shouldn't

34:54

be with them. In fact, Lucy

34:56

even says at one point to Amy, She's

34:58

like, you say, I can't see you.

35:01

I see you anyway. It's this little game

35:03

we play and it's supposed to be this

35:05

like, you know, cute moment, but it's

35:07

like, no, you're

35:10

right. It's like, is it a game or

35:13

do you have a tracker that somehow can identify

35:16

everyone in the world is either not Amy

35:18

or Amy? And she does have that,

35:20

yes, And then when

35:22

the and then when the writing also indicates

35:25

that like being stalked

35:27

is secretly what Amy really

35:30

wanted anyways, and Amy really did want

35:32

Lucy coming after her because this is what she

35:34

like. It just it's it's

35:37

just not a good message for for

35:39

young impressionable No,

35:42

not really, even even if that

35:44

predatory lesbian returns giant

35:47

cartoon sacks of money with dollar

35:49

signs on them, which

35:52

just not enough. Well, that was

35:54

another I mean, I mean, that was another

35:57

thing that sort of bugged me about

35:59

their relationship. And I guess, I mean, it

36:01

is such a campy movie that it

36:03

was. It's not like I feel like, no,

36:05

I wish she was a mean bank robber

36:07

forever, but that but

36:09

that felt like another well worn trope

36:12

of like one person needs to change

36:14

everything about themselves for

36:16

this relationship to work, like you

36:18

have to where there's literally that scene

36:20

with Scud I guess can't say it

36:22

enough. We're

36:24

like Lucy's like, man, I really love Amy,

36:27

and Scuds like, so, do you want to give up everything

36:29

you've worked for? And Lucy's like yep.

36:34

Well. And it's funny too because there's this huge

36:36

running theme in the movie about like

36:38

finding yourself right, and they have

36:41

that whole conversation when she's kidnapped,

36:43

being like, you know, you should be doing what you

36:45

love and Lucy's like, I am doing

36:47

what I love. But then she

36:50

like tosses that out the window. You know, maybe

36:52

she could be a pirate though that

36:55

was so weird too, but it was

36:58

like Lucy, pirates are criminals and He's

37:00

like, whoofs Oh,

37:03

everything I want to be falls under the criminal category.

37:05

Yeah. So, now, what what's she

37:07

going to do after she's returned all this money?

37:10

Like can she even

37:12

afford to live now? It seems like she probably

37:14

can't afford rent on her a big way. People

37:16

cannot live on an art grad student

37:19

salary. I just say, if Lucy's about to go

37:21

to grad school, they're fucks. I

37:24

do not assume that she did very well on her

37:26

S A T S because she definitely

37:28

assaulved that dude there. Yeah,

37:33

there's I mean, who knows. There's

37:35

a lot of parts of that relationship

37:38

that just don't work in terms

37:40

of setting an example. But there are

37:42

other scenes between the two of them that I really

37:44

liked. I really liked that scene where

37:47

they were talking about, you know, Amy

37:49

is going with the path that she was put

37:51

on without questioning it, and then Lucy's

37:54

challenging that, and she

37:56

was like, yeah, I do bad stuff,

37:58

but it's like that was a choice

38:00

I made and I stood by it, which makes it weirder

38:03

that she dials back on it later. But I

38:05

liked that scene between them a lot, Like they do seem

38:07

to challenge each other in a lot of ways

38:10

and don't hold back, which is nice

38:12

because Amy doesn't do that with her friends as

38:14

much. Right, Yeah, you do.

38:16

I feel like in so many mainstream

38:19

movies, which of course are mostly hetero,

38:21

you see the romantic relationship

38:24

if there is one in the movie, you

38:26

rarely get a sense of like why the two

38:28

characters like each other, or what they connect

38:30

about, or what they even talk about. But I

38:32

feel like in this movie, you get more of a sense

38:34

of why they connect, and

38:37

it is I mean, for

38:40

the first chunk of it, Lucy is

38:42

using some very questionable

38:44

tactics and not even just the stalker stuff.

38:46

It's like she's also kind of like negging

38:49

her and or like being condescending to

38:51

her, Like in the scene when they're in the nightclub,

38:54

she's just kind of like being

38:57

mean to her in a weird way.

39:00

Well, that's that's flirting, right, That

39:02

is flirting you right y? Yeah, yeah, the timeless

39:04

tactic that works on us all. The

39:08

thing that comes out in the scene

39:11

in the club that made me laugh

39:13

the most was like you can tell that

39:15

maybe at some point Angela

39:17

Robinson gets the story note that

39:20

like, uh, we should make it

39:22

like, don't make Lucy too bad because

39:24

in that like Amy's

39:26

like, well, haven't you killed a lot of people? And Lucy's

39:29

like, no, they died of various diseases

39:31

and or froze to death, so I'm

39:34

actually a viable love interest and

39:36

is like because I'm not a murderer, I'm just a

39:38

robber. Yeah. That made

39:40

me I don't know, I thought that

39:42

that was like very fun camp be on

39:45

purpose. Bad writing and I enjoyed

39:47

it. I hope it was on purpose, because if

39:49

not, that is nuts. Right. Well,

39:53

and that's and and that's sort of the

39:55

one line where Amy's like, you're just

39:57

not what I expected, you know. Yeah,

40:01

ah, yes, they're I'm sold on this now.

40:04

Yeah, you know. And you ask someone if they murdered

40:06

someone and they say no, you just believe them

40:08

if they're hot. But only if

40:11

they're hot, yeah, only if you

40:13

want to kiss them. Yeah,

40:15

And yeah, Well, and I think it's believable too, because

40:18

their actual sexual chemistry is really believable,

40:20

which we don't get very often in

40:23

lesbian films because

40:25

you have less of them, so the percentage of

40:28

like good chemistry is going to be

40:30

lower, right, Sure, But

40:32

I actually like them together, Like

40:34

when they're romantically together, they're

40:36

cute together. They're believers, super

40:39

cute together. I was rooting for

40:41

them that montage. It's adorable.

40:44

A lot of sitting on cars, the milk

40:47

yeah, yes, spooning on cars, milk

40:49

shakes, I'm like, yeah, sure, gifting

40:51

each other handcuffs, just

40:55

just cute stuff. The

40:58

thing I wanted to talk about is in

41:00

terms of like the queer representation.

41:03

I feel like if there is a

41:05

character in a movie who is like

41:08

identifiably a lesbian. In

41:11

mainstream movies, she's I feel

41:13

like she's often she will often be fairly

41:16

butch presenting. Unsurprisingly,

41:19

a lot of these movies are written by straight

41:21

people who have like a very specific idea of

41:23

what lesbians look like and how they present.

41:26

Um, So it's like pulling from those stereotypes

41:28

and then helping to reinforce them.

41:31

In this movie, the

41:33

two queer characters who we see

41:36

are very fem

41:38

and I feel like you rarely

41:40

see that, and not that this is an especially

41:43

mainstream movie, but like I said,

41:45

in in mainstream movies, you're seeing

41:47

these very stereotypical ideas

41:50

of how lesbians present,

41:52

and it's always like plaid

41:55

flannel, wearing like short hair,

41:57

like you know, nice pair overalls. Yeah,

42:00

yes, well, and this this

42:02

is also one of the only movies that you have both

42:04

of them being femi. I do feel like a lot of the times

42:06

you have one super butch lesbian

42:09

and then one bisexual

42:11

feminine woman, like that's like a very

42:14

common pairing, but to have both of

42:16

them be fem presenting is not as usual.

42:19

That's what I was because I think they are trying to

42:21

be like, well, look, there are different lesbians,

42:23

but only if one looks like a man and one looks

42:25

like a woman, and like they there they

42:27

have this like heteronormative look

42:30

to them even though they're lesbians. Right, Yeah,

42:32

so I thought that was the very least interesting

42:34

that you see that on

42:36

screen when it's normally not that way.

42:39

Well, while we're on the topic of

42:41

how characters are presented in

42:43

in this movie, just like a

42:45

quick a quick moment for wardrobe

42:48

choices. So

42:53

it's a camp movie. I get

42:55

that. However, I mean I

42:57

think that this this movie. It's confusing

43:00

because this movie is so over

43:02

the top campy at times, and I'm like, I

43:04

don't know if you if you were making a

43:06

point or if this is just what

43:09

was in the budget. I had the second It's hard to know.

43:11

Sometimes I wasn't sure if the costumes

43:13

were commentary or if they were just not

43:16

good enough enough money for more fabric yet the

43:18

budget being whatever they found in Angela Robinson's

43:20

pockets that day. Yeah,

43:23

right, because they are wearing private

43:26

schoolgirl plaid skirts like

43:28

that are way shorter than

43:30

even the other students at Deb's academy,

43:33

who said earlier than it looks like Halloween costumes.

43:35

That seems like the perfect description, which

43:38

one is not appropriate for the

43:40

spy stuff that they're doing. Like no,

43:43

because some of them are wearing heels swings

43:45

too. If anyone ever looks up exactly

43:48

if anyone looks up in that huge restaurant,

43:51

they're going to be like, you

43:53

know, I you know, I don't know, we

43:56

do know, we know what you're getting at here. I

43:59

don't they're the wardrobes,

44:01

and this falls into like I

44:03

don't know. I mean, there's there's a lot of this movie

44:05

seems to be parodying movies like Charlie's

44:08

Angels, but it seemed

44:10

to just sort of be making some of the same choices

44:12

without much commentary at times, Like if there was

44:14

ever a point in the movie where

44:17

it was pointed out that, like, hey,

44:19

this outfit doesn't make sense for what

44:21

we're doing, then I would sort of

44:24

be more willing to be like, oh, it's satire.

44:26

But they they're just kind of always

44:29

dressed in ways that they could be so

44:31

easily killed and not

44:34

practical. And also where you just have to

44:36

wonder, I mean, for how many guns they carry

44:39

in this film, where are they keeping them. Where

44:41

do you hide guns in

44:43

that skirt? That's what I wanted, and they're

44:45

huge, huge

44:47

guns. Yeah, I had a

44:50

lot of these very same questions. Also, when

44:52

you consider the what I imagine

44:54

as the intended audience of this movie,

44:57

which is queer women, then

45:00

becomes I guess catering to like

45:02

the queer female gaze rather

45:04

than the male gaze, because you know, it's

45:06

these traditionally by

45:09

Western beauty standards, traditionally

45:11

beautiful women who all have the same

45:13

body type. They're wearing these tiny skirts,

45:16

some of them are wearing shirts that reveal their middrift

45:19

like, some of them are in heels.

45:21

So it's catering to I

45:23

would think, a different gaze

45:25

than we're used to seeing

45:27

when it's you know, a mainstream

45:30

but the alps are the same. But they are

45:32

the same, and it is

45:35

still showing like this very specific

45:37

and rigid standard of beauty

45:40

because again, they all have the same body type. Yeah,

45:42

there's no there's no like diversity

45:45

in terms of body type in this movie really

45:47

at all. I mean, Max

45:50

is a little shorter than the rest of them.

45:54

My I was talking to my boyfriend

45:56

about this movie today. I guess he saw it on the Sundance

45:58

Channel when his mom wasn't home and he was twelve,

46:01

and he was like, it honestly changed my life.

46:04

It's one of Isaac's favorite movies.

46:07

No way, I didn't realize girls

46:09

could kiss other. He's

46:12

like, my mom wasn't home and I just like I taped

46:15

it. It was like a um,

46:18

we have to take another quick break, but we

46:21

will come right back. Speaking

46:28

of the where do

46:30

they keep their guns question,

46:33

there are women with actual weapons

46:35

in this movie, and it makes sense for the genre.

46:38

But we've covered so many movies recently

46:41

where if a woman has

46:43

to fight someone because they're

46:45

a woman, they're fighting with kitchen appliances

46:47

or cookwear or knitting needles

46:49

or fighting

46:52

fighting words. So

46:54

in this movie, at least, the women

46:57

have guns. Not that

46:59

I'm pro by any stretch,

47:01

but in an action movie, it stands it's appropriate.

47:04

Yes, I mean, there are a lot of ways in which

47:06

I have to say the women,

47:09

you know, they get guns, they have

47:11

agency, they're smoking, they're

47:13

you know, like sneaking boys into their rooms.

47:16

Like there's a lot of things where they don't they

47:18

don't really kind of treat them like

47:20

they're not able to do the

47:22

things that they're supposed to be doing. It's just in

47:25

a very very campy way. Yeah.

47:27

Well, and even in their hand to hand combat,

47:30

I don't think a DEB has ever been knocked out,

47:32

but like all the men are just incapacitated.

47:35

That is one of the cool Yeah, I totally

47:37

agree is their abilities

47:40

are never called into question,

47:42

which although I have one important

47:44

question about Deb's abilities, which is

47:47

when you have endgame right

47:49

and Lucy crashes endgame and Amy

47:51

runs away with her and everyone sees

47:53

Lucy Diamond and that dude

47:56

sounds the alarm and everyone freaks out

47:58

and starts running. Isn't

48:00

every single person at endgames supposed

48:02

to be a highly trained lose

48:07

their minds? They're like, why

48:12

are those four dead's the only debs

48:14

who seem to have any idea of what they're

48:16

doing? I just think that when I was

48:18

during my first viewing, and then for some reason

48:20

during the second viewing, I was like, I guess I don't care,

48:23

but like at

48:25

the DEB school and like, why are they the only

48:27

four that ever get to do anything? Are the other

48:30

debs just not ready or are

48:32

they doing stuff we just don't know? They're freshmen? What

48:34

are their classes about I think they're the

48:36

top squad, like the top squad. Maybe

48:38

they get gun privileges or something. I don't know. Seniors.

48:41

And then here's something I wasn't

48:43

totally clear on. Is Deb's

48:45

academy like an all women's

48:48

school or there? Do men

48:50

go there as well? It doesn't look like it. But

48:53

also I don't know, because but then what

48:56

is Bobby's deal because he's always wearing

48:58

something that says homeland curity.

49:01

Yeah, I don't think he goes to Deb's account. How

49:03

did they meet?

49:06

Spy mixers? Oh? He was

49:08

like, oh yeah, I'm dating a Deb part

49:10

of Homeless Security. You meet

49:12

on a steak out at the pool. Alright,

49:15

nice meet, cute, very cute. But

49:17

they do make Bobby look like an idiot, like in

49:20

Always He Can, they

49:22

can never find Lucy Diamond. At

49:24

the end, he gets beat the crap

49:27

out of by Lucy Diamond with

49:29

literally one kicks out.

49:32

So the men in this movie are not great,

49:34

except for Scud. He also

49:36

gets knocked out though by Janet, but he loves

49:38

her because he's in love. He's into

49:41

it. Yeah, feminist icon

49:43

Scud because love

49:45

is Hardie war

49:48

is easy. Love is hard. Another

49:52

thing that we don't get to talk about

49:54

that much. And this movie I think goes kind of halfway

49:57

as you don't get to see women eat in movies

50:00

a lot, which is also

50:02

crazy, but we uh, there is

50:04

that scene at the very beginning

50:06

when they're with Michael Clark Duncan where

50:09

all four of them at least order

50:11

breakfast, and you hear that

50:13

at least Max appears to eat

50:16

food and the rest maybe not as

50:18

much. But Dominique literally

50:20

just gets a coffee coffee, but

50:23

she's all she She just exists on

50:25

coffee and cigarettes and that's it, like all good

50:27

French people do. Coffee, cigs and sex

50:29

are new

50:32

podcast. But

50:34

I was I was like, we didn't get to

50:36

actually see women eat,

50:38

but they did order. I

50:41

feel like that's not quite enough. It's

50:43

a step in, you

50:45

know, getting the order of that progress.

50:48

I wanted to go back quickly

50:50

to sort of the conversation about

50:52

basically just the fighting that we see, which

50:54

is often the women fighting men.

50:57

And we've talked about this on different

50:59

episode odes where it's like, Okay, well,

51:01

in a in an ideal world

51:04

where we have gender equality, shouldn't

51:07

women like shouldn't men

51:09

be able to like fight women

51:11

in these action scenes and like maybe

51:14

even knock them out and stuff

51:16

like that. It's been a complicated subject

51:18

that we don't really know how to broach, especially

51:20

because in movies so far in

51:23

where there's action sequences where

51:25

there are women fighting, it's usually they're

51:28

fighting other women, so or

51:30

they're only given a rolling pin

51:33

to defend themselves. In

51:36

this movie, like we said, we see like

51:39

women fighting and then usually kicking

51:41

the ship out of the men that they're fighting,

51:44

which you know, I

51:46

enjoyed. I feel like that's a step in the right

51:48

direction. And I think that the reason

51:51

that it doesn't really like, I feel

51:53

like that conversation, as important as it is,

51:55

doesn't become super relevant to this movie

51:57

because it's so campy and so

51:59

it's not like, you know, we

52:02

know that the Debs are better fighters

52:04

than all the guys they are going up against

52:06

into going into it, so it's

52:09

never like a battle to the

52:11

death with like with

52:13

a man finding and what like you know the dev

52:15

is gonna win and that the man

52:17

isn't gonna die. So the Steaks

52:19

don't feel quite as like you're like, Okay,

52:22

Bobby's going to get his ass kicked and we're gonna love

52:24

it well. And there is also

52:26

some way in which it a

52:28

little bit helps the

52:30

cheesy high school Catholic school

52:32

girl outfits. Is that you know, when you look

52:34

at Bobby and like the CIA guys

52:37

and all those other spies are out there with

52:39

like their suits and their outfits

52:41

and their things and their boat proof vests,

52:43

and they're you know, like big commando boots

52:46

and everything, and the Debs are just like whatever,

52:48

all I need is a tiny little

52:50

skirt, maybe a flimsy button down, some

52:53

heels, and like a giant gun

52:55

and I'm still gonna kick your ass, right it like it kind

52:57

of has that same thing as like Buffy Allay

53:00

did, where it's like she's just gonna out there and her

53:03

jeans and her big blue dustard

53:05

coat and and she'll always win exactly.

53:08

Yeah, I don't

53:10

know, it was weird. It was weird, I mean, seeing I

53:13

agree that that the way that the like,

53:16

I think because the ability of the Debs

53:18

is never in question, nor is

53:20

the ability of Lucy that this

53:23

movie, I mean, maybe that's what

53:25

makes it so easy and it's so comical how

53:27

the men are defeated that right,

53:30

Like, it's because No, one doesn't like watching

53:33

Bobby get punched in the faith. It's

53:35

different than seeing like Wonder

53:37

Woman versus Captain America and

53:39

one of them is going to kill the other, you

53:41

know, like it's Jamie. Different

53:44

comic universes, you

53:46

know, I don't care a funking I never will

53:49

that the day Lucy Diamond shows up

53:51

in like the m c U. That's just does

53:55

that mean? Wait? Does that mean that if

53:57

they're in different universes they can't meet Captain

54:00

America and Wonder Woman? Ever, they can

54:02

never made? Don't imagine? Well, I mean, who

54:04

knows. Maybe Marvel and DC

54:06

will you know, ten years down the line

54:09

have to cross over. Hard to say.

54:11

I hope that maybe there will be a

54:13

Justice League versus Avengers

54:15

movie. In fact, I'm pitching that right here and

54:18

right now. They should just hear that, Hollywood.

54:21

They should just stop making all there's too

54:23

many. I think there should be

54:25

more Spider Man into the Spider Verse

54:28

movies for sure, and I think there should be at

54:30

least twenty of those. But yeah, they can take a break

54:32

with I have a feeling there there

54:34

will be if you just give them time. I'll

54:37

be patient. Um. Well, that's

54:39

One of the things with the movie Debs

54:42

is that our four main deb

54:44

characters are all women. The

54:46

main villain is a woman. The

54:49

head of Deb's academy, which is

54:51

someone who all the Debs look up to, is

54:53

a woman. All of the male characters

54:56

are secondary or tertiary,

54:58

Like you don't this is a movie populated almost

55:01

entirely by women, and the men who aren't

55:03

in this movie are hardly in this

55:05

movie. Yeah, they, I mean, at the beginning

55:07

they try to do like Michael Clark

55:09

Duncan is very much like doing an angel's

55:12

wake up kind of thing, and then

55:14

it's immediately revealed that holl

55:16

And Taylor is his boss. And

55:19

if we're going to talk about problematic things

55:21

though, can we just real quick touch on Mr

55:24

Phipps, who I mean, while we

55:26

talk about Lucy breaking into a

55:28

oh my gosh without permission all the time,

55:30

can we talk about how he can apparently just like operate

55:34

preparation like

55:36

with no warning

55:38

and then has the audacity to give

55:41

an inspiring monologue

55:43

when he gets there. It's like, are you

55:45

kidding me? And is

55:47

it inspiring? After you just told someone that

55:49

your basic test for aptitude

55:52

is how good of a liar, you are right,

55:56

I don't. It sounds like Deb's should

55:59

be the bad people

56:01

based on the way they describe the test right,

56:03

how they can lie, chat, fight and

56:05

kill. But then they're like, and

56:07

you're the best at it, so you're a goody

56:09

two shoes. They're like, what what

56:13

It's confusing? Who knows? But

56:15

yeah, I mean there's a few scenes where there's

56:17

a room full of people. Miss

56:20

Petrie will be there, the debs will be there. There will

56:22

be like maybe one or two men

56:24

in the scene, and the men are just treated

56:26

the way that women often are in action

56:29

movies, which is that they are basically

56:31

scenery who are extras who

56:33

don't say anything. Um. There's the scene

56:35

where Miss Petrie is promoting Amy

56:38

too Squad Captain, and she's

56:40

accompanied by two men

56:43

and another woman, and the two men don't

56:45

have any lines in that scene. It's only women

56:47

talking. There's another scene it's

56:50

like the aftermath of Amy

56:52

being discovered, um, having a romantic

56:54

relationship with Lucy, and all

56:57

the debs are there, Miss Petrie's there, Bobby

56:59

and Phips are there, but I think Bobby has

57:01

one line in that scene, and otherwise men do

57:03

not talk in that scene. It's just like and

57:05

it's only after Max tells him exactly

57:08

what he's doing, right, you're going to She's

57:11

like okay, yeah, so yeah,

57:14

Bobby's basically in that scene to be offended

57:16

that anyone might find out that his ex girlfriend

57:19

is into a girl, right, which

57:21

he which he later dials

57:24

back on with a gross comment on

57:27

the swing, which I don't think

57:29

it's any mistake that that statement and

57:31

the pooka bracelet are in the same scene.

57:34

You're like, yeah, he's like, oh that lesbian

57:36

thing, it's actually pretty hot because

57:38

it's night. He's

57:41

like, I know you still love me and your

57:43

whole lessie thing. That's kind of hot, And

57:46

yeah, I think that that and

57:49

Janet has one line at some point when when

57:51

she's trying to like shame Amy

57:53

for the whole thing, and she's like, you're just a slut

57:56

again. I think those are two

57:58

of the worst lines for me in terms

58:00

of, you know, problematic things in the movie.

58:03

For sure, there's a few other things

58:05

that are pretty homophobic, I would say in the

58:07

movie, but I think because it's so

58:09

campy, you I think you do realize,

58:12

like those characters are clearly they're

58:14

making it portrayed that they're wrong. Even Miss Petrie

58:16

tells Amy like, you were out having

58:19

your college lesbian experiment, right,

58:21

Like this is just a phase that you're having, and you

58:23

you embarrass the debts by being an experimental

58:26

lesbian, which is obviously problematic.

58:29

Right. Were there any characters that

58:31

made those comments that didn't receive come

58:33

up in later because I was trying to keep track

58:35

of because once Bobby made that

58:38

comment in this scene. In both of those

58:40

scenes, it's I don't

58:42

know. My head just went to like, Okay,

58:44

he has to get his as kicked

58:46

or this movie isn't doing what it's supposed to be

58:48

doing. Well. I think

58:51

Janet gets away. It's got free and she's

58:53

probably the most homophobic of

58:55

everyone because she is

58:57

shaming Amy so hard. Are

59:00

liking Lucy Diamond

59:02

when they almost kiss she's so offended.

59:05

Yea, she has that whole like she almost kissed

59:07

you and you almost her. That's

59:11

the thing that I'm interested in, and when

59:13

everyone thinks about like the story,

59:16

I feel like protects itself in a lot of ways,

59:18

in a way where it's able to say kind

59:21

of problematic things. But because

59:23

they set it up as like Amy's a hero

59:25

and Lucy's a villain and conflating

59:28

those the two issues is

59:31

sometimes they're saying something about like

59:33

it's kind of coded language of like sometimes

59:35

they're talking about like, well, the hero doesn't

59:38

like hook up with the villain, but they're also not

59:40

talking about that. I don't know. It seems like

59:43

the Janet character, especially kind

59:45

of gets away with stuff like

59:47

that by couching it with well,

59:49

she kills people, so you can't be

59:52

with her. Also, the thing

59:54

I'm not fully saying except

59:57

for the times that she does fully saying, and because that's

59:59

the thing, Janet is doing all of the same

1:00:02

stuff at the very same time, like she's

1:00:04

also in contact with

1:00:06

Scott and having this whole flirtation

1:00:09

because he's a boy. M

1:00:12

But I would I would say, at least my read

1:00:15

on it is that in most cases,

1:00:17

in many movies, if a homophobic

1:00:20

thing is stated, that is how

1:00:22

the movie feels about it, rather than how

1:00:25

a character who is framed

1:00:27

as being wrong by the movie

1:00:29

feels about it. So I feel like, with

1:00:32

the exception of Janet and

1:00:34

her sort of weird take on everything

1:00:36

and then getting off Scott

1:00:38

free about it, I feel like generally

1:00:40

the homophobic things that are said are

1:00:43

said by characters who we as

1:00:45

the audience understand that feels more satirical

1:00:48

and a lot and or yeah,

1:00:50

I mean even and and even with Holland

1:00:52

Taylor's I kind of wish Holland Taylor's

1:00:55

character was a little more

1:00:57

double down to like her

1:01:00

being clearly very wrong.

1:01:03

But we always know that she I mean we

1:01:05

we it's already set up that she's a

1:01:07

problematic person in general

1:01:10

when she doesn't give a funk about any of her

1:01:12

mentees until they do something that

1:01:14

makes her look good. So she's already set

1:01:17

up as like a very petty person,

1:01:19

and so when she goes on to make comments like that,

1:01:21

it's like, well, we already don't like her. Yeah,

1:01:24

yeah, I feel like ms Petrie is not the

1:01:27

the redeemable character in this. I feel

1:01:29

like it's the arc is supposed to

1:01:32

teach you about finding yourself and being

1:01:34

true to who you love, and it

1:01:36

does that not using her. It's kind

1:01:38

of you know, you're watching that with Lucy and Amy

1:01:41

Max to a certain extent as a character who

1:01:43

I think is shown having that

1:01:45

growth of realizing like, oh,

1:01:47

well, a true friend will support you

1:01:50

no matter what. Right, I

1:01:53

agree Max. I mean, well, we

1:01:55

haven't talked about that friendship a

1:01:57

lot yet. But Max and Amy's

1:02:00

friendship is also very

1:02:02

interesting, and also because their

1:02:05

power dynamic in that friendship shifts

1:02:07

a couple different times in the space of the movie,

1:02:10

where at the beginning it's clear that Max

1:02:12

is in charge of the friendship. She's like, Hey, if you get

1:02:14

to art school, I'll kill you, and

1:02:17

Amy's like okay, and so

1:02:19

it's like, okay, Max is in charge, and

1:02:21

then you see her have like that crisis,

1:02:23

and it's the thing is like when Amy's

1:02:25

put in charge of the

1:02:28

debbs for not being killed by

1:02:30

Lucy. I don't know exactly

1:02:32

where the movie how the movie wants you to feel, but

1:02:34

I was like, oh, if I was Max, I would

1:02:36

also be upset because Amy is always talking about

1:02:39

how she doesn't want to be a debt. Max is busting her

1:02:41

ass and then has it taken from her

1:02:43

because Holland Taylor's character

1:02:45

isn't paying close enough attention to what the truth

1:02:48

is and and

1:02:50

so I was like on Max's side

1:02:52

for a good portion and then she

1:02:56

is very professional for the most part

1:02:58

and like compartmentalizes and like his like Okay,

1:03:00

we're on the same team, so I'll

1:03:02

do it, and then Amy immediately

1:03:05

fox up and almost gets

1:03:07

all of her friends killed. So I'm

1:03:09

double on Max's side. But then at

1:03:11

the end the Dynamics whitches again

1:03:13

when Max is like Okay, deny everything

1:03:16

and like play by the rules,

1:03:18

and then I didn't like her again. I don't know that character

1:03:21

is all over the place. But then she and then

1:03:23

at the end she's like yeah, She's

1:03:25

like it's almost like careful character development

1:03:28

was not the most important thing.

1:03:31

She's just flip flopping all over the place.

1:03:33

I was on I was on Max's side for a

1:03:35

lot of the movie, and then she she really

1:03:38

lost me in that scene where

1:03:40

it's explicitly Max who is like,

1:03:42

this is my idea. Deny, deny,

1:03:45

deny, get back with your

1:03:47

homeland security pooka shell

1:03:49

got I like, yeah, this thing and

1:03:51

she suggests body, it's

1:03:54

all downhill for you from their Max and

1:03:56

literally puts words into her mouth. I

1:03:59

wrote for you say everything that I

1:04:01

say, even when the other girls are like

1:04:03

what if she's in love? What if she makes her

1:04:06

happy? I hate that. Amy

1:04:08

and Max had a long discussion

1:04:11

after the movie, so for really

1:04:14

sorted their next pops up from the backseat

1:04:16

in the car and they talk out their

1:04:18

feelings. Oh good, Well, what

1:04:20

I couldn't help. But notice about that relationship

1:04:23

dynamic is that the

1:04:26

two non white debs in the

1:04:28

group are When

1:04:30

it comes to Dominique, she has very

1:04:32

little screen time and or bearing on the

1:04:35

story. She's basically just there is

1:04:37

a visual joke who's always smoking a cigarette

1:04:39

or and having sex, which is pointed

1:04:42

right, And someone even calls I think it's Amy

1:04:44

who calls her like a sex addict, and

1:04:47

it's like, no, maybe she just that whole

1:04:49

line because she calls people

1:04:51

crazy and sex addicts and like

1:04:53

that whole line can go. Um.

1:04:56

So it's either Dominique not having

1:04:58

any bearing on this story, or it's

1:05:00

Max, whose actions are

1:05:02

often presented as an

1:05:05

obstacle for Amy, so she ends up

1:05:07

being sort of an antagonistic force

1:05:10

for Amy a lot of the time. And

1:05:12

meanwhile, you know, Amy

1:05:14

is a blonde, white lady, and

1:05:17

the characters who are people of color are

1:05:20

either not doing much

1:05:22

in the story or they are

1:05:25

in some way in antagonistic force.

1:05:27

Yeah, I mean they're They're very much there

1:05:30

to help Amy's story

1:05:32

develop, and not much else. There's they're not

1:05:34

very consistent. There's no real

1:05:37

growth or any like, you know, there's

1:05:39

not as much given to them

1:05:41

as characters. Yeah, they're they're

1:05:43

kind of props and and we're superwhere

1:05:45

we want to know from our listeners, like how

1:05:47

you read that scene. I've had that that's

1:05:50

that was the one reason why Max

1:05:52

pushing back and being so frustrated

1:05:55

when Amy just gets promoted out of nowhere.

1:05:57

That's kind of like one of the reasons why

1:06:00

that story point worked for me, because

1:06:02

it is just like this blonde,

1:06:04

white girl who accidentally

1:06:07

does the right thing is is

1:06:10

immediately put in charge, and then one

1:06:12

of the only people of color in the entire movie who

1:06:14

we know really cares about what she's

1:06:17

doing has gone unrecognized. Her

1:06:19

work's got unrecognized forever, and she's

1:06:21

just displaced immediately, and

1:06:23

she's like she calls her friend

1:06:25

out on it, and not for that explicit reason, but

1:06:28

I don't know that. That was part of the reason why I

1:06:31

was like, oh yeah, Max, yeah,

1:06:33

fuck that, like that's that's horrible.

1:06:36

But then but then they kind of sell that character

1:06:38

out through poor writing. Oh

1:06:42

sid oh well, uh

1:06:44

movies are bad. Um

1:06:47

well, there's another very quick problematic

1:06:50

line that gets said by Scud

1:06:52

whenever they are doing this

1:06:54

bank heist to Lord.

1:06:58

I know that line he says,

1:07:01

he says the R word, and you know he

1:07:03

does. I used that. It's

1:07:06

good and it's funny because the

1:07:08

way that he says it and the sentiment

1:07:11

behind that line and his delivery of

1:07:13

it is perfect, and

1:07:15

that line just needs to go.

1:07:18

Is the thing. It should have been a different

1:07:20

word word right, like if it had been any

1:07:22

other word. I mean, it's definitely one of those things where it's

1:07:24

like it is a byproduct of a movie that

1:07:26

was made in thousands,

1:07:28

and like you'd never see that line of dialogue these

1:07:31

I mean, I also think that's true of the guns. I

1:07:33

feel like you would never see the movie

1:07:36

done this way with the guns the way they are or

1:07:38

the outfits. I bet, like, I don't think the outfits

1:07:40

would be quite that way. Yeah, I think

1:07:42

that I didn't

1:07:44

realize that the R word was

1:07:47

used in this movie. I would

1:07:49

not to cut a break in any

1:07:51

way. But I do sort of agree that that is

1:07:54

a byproduct of the time it was

1:07:56

made in Yeah, it is, but that's what I'm

1:07:58

surprised that it didn't jump out of you because it is. It's

1:08:00

so noticeable. I feel like when you watch the movie.

1:08:02

To me, it immediately was like

1:08:04

this beacon where you're like, oh, you can't say

1:08:07

that, like, you know, because

1:08:09

if you were watching it today, you'd be like, who approved

1:08:11

this line? You know? It was

1:08:13

too busy whacking off to Scud to listen

1:08:16

to what he is saying. That

1:08:21

might be the single worst sentence you've

1:08:23

ever said, Jami the Scud, I think

1:08:25

that's a fun phrase. Oh

1:08:29

goodness, Um, I did wanna just

1:08:32

quickly point out Amy's thesis.

1:08:34

She says, my central hypothesis

1:08:37

is that as a woman operating in a

1:08:39

male dominated field, you felt

1:08:42

the need to overcompensation. She's talking

1:08:44

to Lucy. You felt the need to overcompensate

1:08:46

by being exponentially more ruthless

1:08:48

and diabolical. Then you're

1:08:51

established male counterparts, and

1:08:53

I think that these psychological forces combined

1:08:55

to create a kind of emotional void

1:08:58

in which you're incapable of loving

1:09:00

or being loved. Honestly, Amy's

1:09:03

thesis sounds like a feminist text

1:09:05

that I really do want to read.

1:09:07

But well, I don't know. I

1:09:10

thought I didn't really love that thesis

1:09:12

of like, I feel like that that that thesis

1:09:15

to me, almost came off a little blamy of

1:09:17

like, well, if women didn't resent

1:09:19

their male coworkers so much, they wouldn't

1:09:21

be killing so many people. And

1:09:24

I was like, hold on, I don't know that

1:09:26

that felt a little product of its timey and

1:09:28

that's phrasing. Yeah, I didn't give it. Something

1:09:30

else that I also really love about it, though, is

1:09:32

like from a queer perspective, you

1:09:34

know, I think there's that whole idea of it's

1:09:36

like, it's not that you can't love, you just don't

1:09:38

love the way everyone expects you to, you

1:09:41

know. I kind of like that part of it.

1:09:43

Yeah, I like that whole scene because I don't

1:09:45

know every scene where Lucy and

1:09:48

Amy are pushing back on everything

1:09:50

the other person says is

1:09:53

good to me, it

1:09:56

is there's

1:09:58

a way in which it's well, it's thought that it's bad.

1:10:00

It's just there's a way in which I'm gonna completely undo

1:10:03

everything we just finished saying about how like the depths

1:10:05

are just so competent and they can do everything

1:10:07

that men can do in heels and skirits, and they

1:10:09

don't need anything. Everyone in this movie

1:10:11

is the worst spy every and

1:10:15

that scene is one great example where Amy's

1:10:17

like, I have you at gunpoint, but like, oh hold on, let

1:10:19

me just tuck my gun under my arm to shake your

1:10:21

hand and introduce myself and tell you about my thesis.

1:10:24

And the only place where people are even

1:10:26

worse spies than that is when the

1:10:28

entire search and rescue operation

1:10:31

descends upon Lucy Diamond's lair,

1:10:33

finds her in a sheet

1:10:36

and doesn't arrest her. Still, they

1:10:38

just leave. They

1:10:41

just walk away and leave her there.

1:10:44

Even Max, who's supposed to be like

1:10:46

the secret genius of the Depths,

1:10:49

is like unbelievable and just

1:10:51

like beats, it just leaves

1:10:54

and they leave, and they don't even drive any

1:10:56

home. They leave her a walk that

1:11:00

they're not very good spies. I'm just gonna throw

1:11:02

that out there. The

1:11:06

last thing I had to say about

1:11:09

des was I I went back and I watched

1:11:11

the short film it was based on. Yes

1:11:16

it is, I mean it is. So

1:11:18

it won a ton of awards.

1:11:21

Uh the year it came out. It came out in two

1:11:23

thousand three, so it seems like this

1:11:25

short film did really well and it was immediately

1:11:28

put into production to become a movie with

1:11:30

the same budget, with with the same

1:11:32

budget, except most of the budget went

1:11:34

to paying Holland Taylor. But

1:11:38

the short film

1:11:41

exactly high end puka shells. If

1:11:45

you're listening and you haven't seen the short film,

1:11:47

highly recommended. It is even it

1:11:49

moves even faster. It's

1:11:51

like raunchier. And if I'm not

1:11:54

mistaken, I think that the short film

1:11:56

does have an all queer cast, while

1:11:59

the theatrical movie does not,

1:12:01

or at least a majority queer cast, which

1:12:05

I don't know. I mean, I think that. Yeah,

1:12:07

I'm not the most qualified person to make

1:12:10

this comment, but it does seem

1:12:12

like very often queer films

1:12:15

when they're adapted for a larger audience,

1:12:17

are dare I say, sanitized a little bit, and

1:12:19

straight actors are cast in queer

1:12:22

roles. I'm fairly certain, I

1:12:24

think if my research didn't fail

1:12:26

me, Amy and Lucy are played by

1:12:28

straight actresses, and in

1:12:30

the original short film

1:12:33

that was not the case. Wait, is Claire Kramer

1:12:35

queer? Am I like just learning

1:12:38

this now? In the Amy

1:12:40

and in the in the

1:12:42

in the short film, the original short film,

1:12:44

Oh no, you're right. I think it's the four

1:12:47

debts that are that are queer. There's

1:12:49

a majority. Why would you taught us like that.

1:12:51

I'm sorry, I'm

1:12:53

so sorry. My whole world is

1:12:56

opening up there no

1:12:58

also Kramer of lerificous fame

1:13:01

from both I got really excited that

1:13:03

she was I'm so sorry now

1:13:05

she she appears to be the

1:13:07

only straight women in the movie. Or

1:13:11

fine, I'm just going to cry myself to sleep tonight. It's no problem.

1:13:13

I've fully ruined everyone's life. The

1:13:16

one the one carry over from the Short

1:13:19

Films cast is Jill

1:13:21

Ritchie who plays Janet, who fun fact,

1:13:23

is Kid rocks sister. So just

1:13:26

a wild amazing thing.

1:13:29

There is anything. Debs is

1:13:32

one degree of separation from Kid

1:13:34

Rock, who knew something

1:13:36

we all needed to know. Yes, Lee

1:13:40

and Ellie, do you have any other final

1:13:42

thoughts about the film Debs?

1:13:45

I do have one final thought, which is

1:13:47

just I think while we

1:13:49

it's so fun to wrag on Debs, and I love

1:13:51

writing on Debs because I love it so much,

1:13:54

um, I do think it's important to also mention that

1:13:56

while we make fun of their their low budget

1:13:58

and the effects and everything, that

1:14:01

it is interesting to see the

1:14:03

transition from Deb's to what Angela

1:14:05

Robinson can do with a budget, which

1:14:08

is Professor Marston and it's

1:14:10

such a far cry between those two movies

1:14:12

that I just think it's at least worth pointing out. You

1:14:14

know that Angela Robinson

1:14:17

is still a beautiful human being forgiving

1:14:19

us Stebs and Professor Mark

1:14:21

Pressor Marston. And

1:14:23

it goes to show when you have a

1:14:26

queer woman writing and directing

1:14:28

a movie about a queer love

1:14:30

story, it's handled. This

1:14:33

is not to say this movie is not without its problems,

1:14:35

but it is handled much

1:14:38

better than when these

1:14:41

stories are attempted by

1:14:43

non queer people. And usually those stories

1:14:46

aren't even attempted by non

1:14:48

queer people. But it helps

1:14:51

when the person who is

1:14:53

creating this story and this

1:14:55

content is someone

1:14:57

who has experience

1:15:00

and knowledge about these topics.

1:15:04

And it's hardening to see that someone

1:15:06

making their perfect art about

1:15:10

the queer spies can go on to have

1:15:13

an incredible I mean, she's had an incredible career.

1:15:15

Professor Marston is amazing.

1:15:18

She didn't she write and direct quite

1:15:20

a few uh l word

1:15:22

and True Blood and like she's like making

1:15:25

Banks, she's chilling. Is

1:15:28

she a woman of color? Yes?

1:15:30

Yes, that it surprised

1:15:32

me then the way that the women of color are

1:15:34

treated in Debs then,

1:15:37

but I would guess maybe it was producers

1:15:40

could be. Yeah, I also feel like I think

1:15:42

it stands out more with Max. I don't know that

1:15:44

Max is that much less consistent of a

1:15:46

character than everyone else in this movie.

1:15:49

I mean, I think it's just everybody who is not Amy

1:15:51

and Lucy kind of gets short shrift in

1:15:54

this for true Um

1:15:56

and Lucy. Jordana Brewster is

1:15:58

part Brazilian. I don't know exactly

1:16:01

how she identifies in terms of her ethnic

1:16:04

identity, but she perhaps

1:16:06

identifies as at least

1:16:08

mixed. Not totally clear on that,

1:16:11

but you know there's a text her,

1:16:15

whose text her? And let us know what you find

1:16:17

out. So does this

1:16:20

movie past the BACKDL

1:16:22

test? Yeah,

1:16:25

big fat yes on that. You know. An easy

1:16:28

way to pass the backdel test is have two

1:16:30

women and instead of having them talk about a guy,

1:16:32

I have them talked about how much they want to owe each other

1:16:36

sure fire away Um. And

1:16:38

in one of the very few scenes

1:16:41

that I found where they do talk about

1:16:43

men, they are talking about Bobby

1:16:45

and Amy's like, I broke up

1:16:47

with Bobby and someone says why and She's like

1:16:50

he was just so boring, and then

1:16:52

someone else says, yeah, he's an ass

1:16:54

so when men

1:16:56

are being talked about, it's usually

1:16:59

in an insulting way, which is

1:17:01

great. Um, I think. Also a

1:17:03

super producer, Sophie pointed out that

1:17:06

this movie would not pass

1:17:09

the reverse spectal

1:17:11

test and that there are not two

1:17:13

men I don't think even talking to each

1:17:15

other in the whole movie, but

1:17:18

there might if there is. I do think that's

1:17:21

that doesn't sound Yeah, it doesn't.

1:17:23

I don't think. There's that scene where Scuts playing

1:17:25

bingo with some guys but

1:17:27

nobody responds to him. Yeah, and

1:17:30

they certainly don't have names. Yeah,

1:17:32

we don't know who any of those guys are. The name of

1:17:34

my new band is Scuds playing Bengo.

1:17:39

Um. And this is a

1:17:42

rare case of a movie passing

1:17:44

the Vito Rusto test, and

1:17:47

a few listeners are not familiar

1:17:50

with what that is. Um. The Vito Russo

1:17:52

test requires that a film must

1:17:54

contain at least one character who

1:17:57

is identifiably lgbt Q, plus

1:18:00

that character must not solely or

1:18:02

predominantly be defined by their sexual

1:18:04

orientation or gender identity. In

1:18:06

other words, they should be made up of the same

1:18:09

sort of unique character traits that are commonly

1:18:11

used to differentiate straight characters

1:18:13

from one another treated like people.

1:18:16

But yeah, so strange.

1:18:19

Um and the l G B t Q character

1:18:22

must be tied into the plot in such a way that

1:18:24

their removal from the story would have a

1:18:26

significant impact. So

1:18:29

this movie without question passes

1:18:31

the Veto Russo test as

1:18:33

well as the Bechtel test. So,

1:18:36

in fact, I would say, in terms of the Bechtel

1:18:38

test, this is a sort of like an estimated

1:18:40

guest but I would say around

1:18:43

seventy in the movie is characters

1:18:45

passing the Bechdel test. It's

1:18:47

like constant, constant

1:18:49

conversations with named women who

1:18:52

are not talking about men. So,

1:18:54

and just imagine if they had cut Bobby's character,

1:18:56

it could have been like, I

1:18:59

mean, right, I

1:19:01

think we need more Bobby Eraser. Yes,

1:19:04

except when it's King of the Hill, and in

1:19:07

that case, more more Bobby. Okay,

1:19:10

that's an interesting take. Um,

1:19:13

we can have a Bobby de So

1:19:16

let's rate the movie on our Nipple

1:19:18

scale rating of zero

1:19:20

to five nipples based on its portrayal

1:19:23

of women. Um,

1:19:26

I this is hard, this is a this

1:19:28

is I'm gonna give it.

1:19:30

I think four nipples because

1:19:33

there are brief problematic

1:19:36

moments here and there, and the movie does, as

1:19:38

we discussed, subscribe

1:19:40

to some of the stereotypes

1:19:43

that we see of queer

1:19:45

women. But the fact that the

1:19:47

main cast is almost entirely women,

1:19:51

and and and a pretty diverse cast

1:19:53

fairly yes, more diverse

1:19:55

than your ordinary movie, but

1:19:58

certainly but

1:20:00

still no diversity

1:20:02

in terms of body type, at least

1:20:04

among the main four debts. Yeah,

1:20:07

I think that aside from

1:20:09

a few problems that the movie has,

1:20:11

which I think can be attributed to it

1:20:13

being a movie of two thousand four,

1:20:16

um, I would say it does fairly

1:20:19

well in terms of showing women who

1:20:21

have agency and who are propelling

1:20:24

the story forward. And it's

1:20:26

fun to watch. It's a it's a funny

1:20:28

movie. It is silly as fuck, but

1:20:31

like, there's so

1:20:33

little movie without the women, and without

1:20:36

any of the women is based on a swing

1:20:39

with some bracelets screaming at the

1:20:41

top of his lungs. Right, the

1:20:43

movie doesn't exist without the like

1:20:46

six main female characters

1:20:49

that are needed for this story.

1:20:52

So good playing Bingo.

1:20:55

I would watch that short film. Yes,

1:20:58

um, so it's great. And the

1:21:01

fact that it's, as we discussed,

1:21:03

one of only a very small

1:21:05

number of like fun queer

1:21:07

women comedy movies in

1:21:10

existence. Um, I

1:21:12

think that's great. So yeah, I'm gonna go

1:21:14

with four nipples, and I'll

1:21:17

give one to each of the four

1:21:19

debts. I'm

1:21:23

gonna go three and a half. And

1:21:26

the reason we didn't touch on this very much,

1:21:28

but something that always kind of bugs me

1:21:30

in in movies is when

1:21:33

friendships are disrupted by

1:21:36

a relationship, and a new

1:21:38

relationship suddenly destroys your

1:21:40

friendship structure entirely

1:21:43

and send your entire life into chaos. And

1:21:46

I was trying to like

1:21:49

go through that entirely. And

1:21:52

I do think that in some ways, like Amy's

1:21:55

relationship totally shakes

1:21:57

the foundation of like her relationship

1:22:00

with all of her female friends. And

1:22:03

that was the thing that I didn't I don't

1:22:05

know, even though like her character ultimately

1:22:07

grows and I think finds the best

1:22:09

of both schools of thought and whatever

1:22:12

moves forward, that was like one

1:22:14

thing that I was, like, I didn't love

1:22:18

that. I don't know, I mean, and

1:22:20

I guess movies need conflict, and

1:22:22

if you have a majority female cast,

1:22:24

there's gonna be a lot of conflict

1:22:27

and in fighting between women. But just the

1:22:29

whole new relationship completely

1:22:31

destroying friendship group

1:22:33

for the most part, wasn't my favorite

1:22:36

thing, but it's also basically

1:22:38

a queer d com, which is incredible.

1:22:42

I don't know. I mean, it's like, it's

1:22:44

such a fun movie. I haven't

1:22:46

enjoyed watching a movie twice back to back in

1:22:48

a very long time. And

1:22:51

it's great. I mean, for all

1:22:53

the fun ragging on the

1:22:55

low production values, it's a good movie

1:22:57

and it's funny. The story is tight for

1:22:59

the most Yeah, I mean it's a it's less than an hour

1:23:01

and a half long. What more could you ask for? And

1:23:05

so I thought, I mean, if that was the last, uh so

1:23:08

I'll give it three and a half or

1:23:10

three and three quarters, I don't know. Somewhere somewhere

1:23:13

it's a scientific there's a Wikipedia page.

1:23:15

Did you see that? Where people are leaving?

1:23:17

So now I feel more conscientious of my nipple

1:23:20

ratings and I'm like losing sleep over it.

1:23:22

There's a Wikipedia page for for

1:23:24

us and then they write down it's

1:23:27

really stressful actually about the page. I didn't

1:23:30

know that they were like documenting all of our

1:23:32

nipple games, updated rather frequently. Okay,

1:23:34

so for whoever is making the Wikipedia page, I

1:23:37

say three point seven five and

1:23:40

I answer yes, final answer, I'm

1:23:42

gonna give also, if you are making

1:23:45

the Wikipedia page, let us know that it's

1:23:47

used so that we can credit you if you want.

1:23:49

So, I guess I'm gonna give

1:23:53

one to each of the debs, except

1:23:55

I'm giving slightly less of one to Janet.

1:23:58

Okay, sorry in it,

1:24:00

but you are a kid rock sister, so life's

1:24:03

Hardlee.

1:24:06

Do you want to go next with your Yeah?

1:24:08

I do, And I'm so torn as well because

1:24:10

I feel like, if I vote with my heart

1:24:12

and my nostalgic love for this

1:24:15

movie, I want to give it four nipples.

1:24:17

I do also feel like I think it comes

1:24:19

in slightly lower than that, and I think my

1:24:21

problems do have to

1:24:23

do somewhat with the fact that I think

1:24:26

Ellie and I both have our issues with the

1:24:28

whole predatory lesbian trope, and

1:24:31

I also do have an issue with the

1:24:33

fact that I feel like they really toy in

1:24:35

this with um the age

1:24:38

that they're supposed to appear, and

1:24:40

so when you combine the predatory lesbian

1:24:42

trope, but the fact that they're very much casting them

1:24:45

as like high school girls, even though they

1:24:47

try to make it clear that they're not, but

1:24:50

it sort of keeps presenting them

1:24:52

that way. Like I that I have a

1:24:54

hard time with. So yeah, I mean

1:24:56

maybe maybe somewhere around you know three

1:24:59

and a half? Can we do we get to assign

1:25:01

them as well? Yes, this is

1:25:03

so exciting. I wasn't I didn't prepare

1:25:05

well enough to this. Okay, if

1:25:07

I have just signed three and a half Nipples,

1:25:09

I'm going to assign one

1:25:12

to Scud for his excellent motivational

1:25:15

quotes. I'm

1:25:17

going to give one to Max

1:25:20

because I just I think Max should

1:25:22

get something more in this movie. I'm

1:25:25

going to give one to h

1:25:27

Angela Robinson for

1:25:30

you know, just the gift of this and

1:25:33

other things that she has given queer women. And

1:25:35

I'm going to save my last half of Nipple and I'm going

1:25:37

to gift it to Australia because like, what did Australia

1:25:40

do to you? Australia

1:25:42

gets sank or their

1:25:44

attitude

1:25:48

all right, Well, I think I have

1:25:50

to agree with Lee that it's around

1:25:52

three and a half. Mine is

1:25:54

because of some of the homophobic

1:25:56

comments that just like, even

1:25:58

if you're saying them in sad higher, I think they

1:26:01

create a problematic message of friends

1:26:03

not being supportive of their friends in lesbian

1:26:05

relationships. And

1:26:09

I think also the relationship

1:26:11

between Lucy and

1:26:13

Amy were of course, I love seeing

1:26:15

them together, but when you actually take

1:26:18

their relationship and put it on paper,

1:26:20

it's very stockery, so I

1:26:22

really don't like that. That being said,

1:26:25

I am going to give a nipple to Lucy Diamond because nobody

1:26:27

has given her a nipple, and

1:26:30

just what a hero she needs

1:26:32

one? All right, um,

1:26:34

I'm also going to give a nipple to Max

1:26:37

of course, and Miss

1:26:39

Petrie because I love the time, and

1:26:44

then half we'll have to

1:26:46

go to Dominique because I feel

1:26:48

like she's the underdog of this. She

1:26:51

has a lot of agency and she's very sex positive

1:26:53

to me, so Amy calls her a sex addict.

1:26:56

So love

1:26:58

it. Well. I think you to both

1:27:00

of you so much for being here

1:27:02

with us. This has been such

1:27:04

a fun episode in such a fun

1:27:07

movie to discuss. You like having

1:27:09

us. Thank you. Where can

1:27:11

people find you and follow you

1:27:14

online? Is there anything that you would like to plug in

1:27:16

terms of social media? You can find us at

1:27:18

les Hangout Pod on all the social media's

1:27:21

Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, and

1:27:23

we also have a YouTube channel YouTube dot

1:27:25

com slash Let's Hangout Pod and

1:27:27

we post songs on there. We actually

1:27:29

write original songs based on lesbian movies.

1:27:33

You can see some of those on our YouTube channel.

1:27:36

Yes, um, you can also follow

1:27:39

us individually. Are our

1:27:41

social media things. I'm on Twitter and on Instagram

1:27:44

at ls H Foster and I'm at

1:27:46

Ellie Bridgeta and we do want

1:27:48

to plug. We have our very first

1:27:50

live show coming up on February

1:27:53

eighth at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn.

1:27:56

UM, so we will be doing some

1:27:58

fun things there about movie that

1:28:00

should have been gay even if they weren't.

1:28:03

Oh that sounds awesome. Yeah,

1:28:07

take a trip to New York. Probably going to do

1:28:09

one in l A at some point, so hopefully

1:28:11

catch you there. Yeah, let us know. Well,

1:28:14

thank you again so much for being here.

1:28:16

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1:29:03

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1:29:08

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1:29:10

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my pens.

1:29:16

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