0:00

On the Bell Cast, the questions asked

0:02

if movies have women in them, are

0:05

all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?

0:07

Or do they have individualism? The

0:10

patriarchy? Zef invest

0:12

start changing it with the Bell Cast.

0:15

Hey, hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin, do

0:18

you want to accompany

0:21

me in this cave and explore

0:24

it together? Wait? Wait, wait, I just need

0:26

a triple check something. Okay,

0:29

has anyone ever been in this cave?

0:31

Um? Probably not? But who could

0:33

say? Okay? That's fine. I have a question.

0:35

I have a second question. Follow up? Okay, Um,

0:38

is this cave just like some

0:41

really long vagina metaphor? If

0:45

so, I didn't? Yes, yeah, I mean aren't

0:47

all caves do it? All?

0:51

Right? Here we go. We are now

0:54

descending into the

0:56

cave effortless beautiful.

0:59

Welcome to the extel Cast. Uh.

1:01

My name is Caitlin Darante. My name is Jamie

1:03

Loftus, and we're just gonna We're just gonna, you

1:06

know, rope on down. I'm like, I'm

1:08

gonna make it very immediately clear that I've never

1:10

been spelan king. Uh.

1:13

Let's rope on down into the vagina

1:15

metaphor. That is one of the scariest

1:18

movies that I've ever seen. I think,

1:22

yes, this and this is our show,

1:24

The Bechtel Cast, where we examine

1:26

film through an intersectional feminist

1:29

lens. We use the Bechdel test as

1:31

a jumping off point for discussion, that

1:34

being a media metric invented

1:36

by queer cartoonist Alice and Bechdel, sometimes

1:38

called the Bechdel Wallace Wallace. Oh

1:41

my god, uh Wallace

1:43

test, And I really just my mouth just

1:45

went another place, the

1:47

Becktel Wallace test. Yes,

1:49

and that requires our rendition

1:52

of the test that two people

1:54

of a marginalized gender speak to

1:56

each other about something other than a man

1:58

for at least two line of dialogue. Shouldn't

2:01

be that hard. It really shouldn't be that hard.

2:04

But but some people really, I mean, I don't

2:06

know if we if Christopher Nolan has really gotten

2:08

there yet. So you know, it's like we're

2:10

always pushing for growth. He

2:13

simply has never seen

2:15

two women talk to each other. Our thoughts

2:18

are always with Christopher Nolan and his quest

2:20

to get two female characters to speak to

2:22

each other about. Not Leonardo

2:24

DiCaprio. But you know, someday,

2:27

well, today's movie should fare a

2:29

little bit better, but not

2:32

to spoil anything spoil

2:34

away, because today we were talking about

2:36

The Descent and we have a guest

2:38

with us who we are very excited about.

2:41

She is a filmmaker, an artist,

2:43

and a consultant. It's Darby

2:45

Rose with

2:49

you. Yes, please descend. Let's

2:51

with us into the vagina

2:54

metaphor? Which character is it that descends

2:56

really quickly? And you're like, oh no, but then

2:58

she's like, I descend all the time. That

3:02

would be Holly, Holly, yes,

3:04

And then I mean Holly,

3:07

she should maybe descend a little slower

3:09

as we learn. Anyways, this movie is so scary.

3:12

Thank you for coming. I'm

3:15

so stoked, and thank you for bringing us this movie.

3:18

Oh yeah, I love this movie. I saw

3:20

it years ago on the interwebs

3:23

and then again at

3:25

sin a family and the director actually came

3:29

and did like a Q and a yeah.

3:31

It was really rad um and you

3:34

know, he said a lot of the stuff that you can read on

3:36

IMDb trivia, which is fairly fascinating.

3:39

But I loved it and watching it again

3:41

it was like this moothe is still badass

3:44

and scared the ship out of me. Yeah,

3:46

it's like I'm still scared. It's like broad Daylight.

3:49

I just got so scared by

3:51

their own terrors in their own lives

3:53

and then the terrors below ground that

3:56

they embark with right

3:58

that they descend upon on. Yeah,

4:03

Jamie, what's your history with the

4:05

movie. I had really

4:08

no history with this movie at all. I knew

4:10

that it was a horror movie with

4:13

an all female cast, and that is all

4:15

I knew. And I'm really glad I

4:18

went into it knowing essentially nothing,

4:20

because every I feel like

4:22

I got the two thousand five

4:24

theatrical experience that

4:26

I was that I would have because

4:28

it's so I mean, like

4:31

our discussion aside like it. It's

4:33

so scary, it is so well paced,

4:36

Like there were so many times that I was surprised,

4:38

and then I had to go seek out the UK

4:41

ending. I watched a cut of it that had the US

4:43

ending, and I'm like, I

4:46

I still don't know what ending I prefer. I think I know

4:48

what ending I prefer, but I don't. But I'm but I

4:50

don't know. There it was really

4:52

good. It was really good and really scary, and

4:54

I was I don't know, Yeah, I was very

4:57

happy. I went in kind of not knowing

4:59

anything about it. What about you Caitlin.

5:02

I saw this movie in theaters in two

5:04

thousand five, depending on what

5:06

month that came out. I was either a freshman or sophomore

5:09

in college, and I went with my best friend j T,

5:11

friend of the show Twilight,

5:14

UM, and we saw it together because we had a habit

5:17

of seeing horror movies, especially

5:19

together in theaters, and then both

5:22

being so scared about

5:24

whatever we watched. We would then

5:26

have to like just stayed over at

5:28

each other's apartments for

5:30

like a week afterward, just to take

5:33

comfort in knowing that someone else was

5:35

there to protect us. UM.

5:38

So that was very much the case for The

5:40

Descent. I

5:43

thought it was one of the most effective

5:45

horror movies I had ever seen, UM,

5:48

because a lot of horror movies it's like they're in

5:50

a haunted house and it's like, Okay, then

5:52

leave the haunted house, or like the

5:55

reason that they can't leave will be so

5:57

like plot device e or ridiculou

6:00

list. But this one, it's like they

6:02

had to keep going forward, yeah, trapped,

6:05

like there are no I mean,

6:07

well, I don't want to say there are no story logic

6:10

issues, because like what

6:12

about the cave dwellers, but I

6:14

mean, for what it is like the world building that it

6:16

accomplishes, You're just like, oh my god,

6:18

like, oh, it's just so

6:21

scary. I feel like it. It does

6:23

enough kind of early on too that I truly

6:26

wasn't like, I don't like, there were different

6:28

moments where I'm like, I don't know if this is going to be a last

6:30

girl situation, like maybe more

6:32

maybe no one will get out, maybe multiple people

6:34

will get out, Like I just have no And I

6:37

certainly I was watching

6:39

this movie by myself, and I was just sort of like giving

6:41

my boyfriend brief summaries

6:43

every few minutes of what was happening. Um,

6:46

but I certainly didn't see a truck

6:48

full of spears crashing into them

6:50

at the beginning. That was

6:53

it was like, just what kind of truck was that?

6:55

It was a truck full of spears and the spears

6:57

were on top of the truck and

7:00

that so it's

7:02

like borried, but not for long stretches.

7:05

And then you don't like, I wasn't sure.

7:07

I knew so little about it that I wasn't sure if

7:09

there were going to be quote unquote monsters

7:12

at any point. And you get like pretty

7:14

far into the movie without that happening, and so it

7:16

was like a cool surprise when you're like, oh,

7:18

there are little little

7:21

vagina monsters inside the vagina

7:25

uh and not in this movie to be called the m

7:27

STDs. They are cave dwellers. But

7:29

now maybe I will refer to any lady

7:32

problems as I've got a cave dwelling

7:35

of the Sunday. I

7:37

love I love that the movie does have like it's

7:39

kind of like two movies in one,

7:42

because it's not until according

7:44

to IMDb trivia, fifty one minutes

7:46

into the film does the cave

7:49

dwellers do they come out? Like the

7:51

killing doesn't start happening until then,

7:54

And I feel like, up until then, it's already like

7:56

so scary, but it's not. It's

7:59

just good. It's just a good time.

8:02

Every moment that you get scared

8:04

or jump, it feels so like, yeah,

8:07

they deserve to do that to me, I deserve

8:10

that, And

8:12

it's and it's also like, yeah, sad, and you're

8:14

getting to know these characters, and

8:16

I think actually, by the time they start dying, I

8:19

was kind of like, that's okay, I'm

8:21

okay, I'm okay with this. Even though I've gotten

8:23

attached to some of them except for a bitch as do

8:25

you know I'm okay with this. I

8:27

have no sympathy for that home record. Oh

8:30

well, I oh, I have a whole thing about her.

8:32

We'll get to it. Man. I feel like I'm

8:34

weirdly empathetic. I mean, there are some things

8:36

where you're like Juno, like what,

8:40

but the dude has a loaded character.

8:42

There's so much going on there, so much.

8:45

Yeah, yeah, for sure. My only issue

8:47

too, though with them doing that to Juno was

8:49

she was like the only woman of color,

8:52

and was like, yes, why do you gotta do that to

8:54

her? Well to

8:56

me and we'll talk about this. But just

8:58

to give you a little niak peek,

9:02

the movie suggests that women are so petty

9:05

that they will just kill each other because,

9:08

like, I understand the anger of learning

9:10

that your best one of your best friends like was

9:12

having an affair with your husband, But are

9:14

you going to be so angry that you kill

9:17

her or leave her to die? That

9:20

was that was definitely like her change

9:23

and you know when she becomes like a

9:25

little cave dweller herself, like after

9:28

death dies. You know, I was

9:30

like trying to believe this change, but

9:33

I was like, but you just didn't give me that like

9:35

anger building up. You gave me a lot of anxiety

9:38

and hallucinations, but you didn't

9:40

give me this like anger that

9:43

burst or she just like snapped,

9:45

you know, or maybe they did, but

9:48

I didn't believe it. I kind of was. I I

9:50

don't know why. Like one of the things I was

9:52

sure of was that I felt so sure.

9:55

I don't know. I just was like, well, I don't think that Sarah

9:58

is going to kill I just didn't think Sarah

10:00

was going to kill Juno. I thought they were going to both escape

10:03

and then have like the most terrifying discussion

10:05

of Juno's entire life. Like that was kind

10:07

of what I was hoping for, is that they would both

10:10

live and then they would just have to coexist

10:12

with every bit of trauma in

10:14

relation. Yeah.

10:16

Yeah, like it's just every single conceivable

10:19

imaginable trauma. I was kind

10:21

of Yeah, I mean honestly in a in a movie that

10:23

like I really really really enjoyed

10:25

that. That was like one of the choices where I

10:28

feel like maybe if I saw in theaters, I would have been like

10:31

fuck, yeah, you know, like that's so cathartic,

10:33

But like, yeah, being that she is the only

10:35

woman of color, and it kind of like makes Sarah.

10:38

I don't know. I was like, I feel like Sarah

10:40

is gonna Also just logistically,

10:42

I'm like, Juno is the only person

10:45

that has, you know, been spelunking, Like

10:47

obviously she fucked this day up,

10:50

but she she has

10:53

the skills to get us up in any case.

10:55

Well, I watched the sequel to

10:58

Okay. I wanted to because I read a about

11:00

it and I'm so curious why they

11:02

took that route. Yeah, what

11:04

is so? Spoiler alert everyone

11:07

for The Descent Part two. Um,

11:11

it's the same cast sort of

11:13

where basically it picks up right where the

11:15

first movie leaves off, where like

11:17

the authorities find Sarah

11:20

having just escaped from the cave, but

11:22

she doesn't remember anything. I guess the

11:25

trauma has made her

11:27

unable to remember what just happened.

11:30

So they're like, well, all of your

11:32

friends are missing. We have to go back down

11:34

into the cave to find them. And

11:36

she's like, I guess I

11:39

don't know what happened down there. So

11:42

she and like some I

11:45

don't know if they're park rangers. I think there's

11:47

like a cough, few cops, but they all go into

11:50

the cave because they don't believe the woman.

11:53

Well that and she doesn't remember,

11:56

which I think we we've talked about how like women

11:58

having amnesia is like often

12:01

a plot device in movies,

12:03

and women be having amnesia, Well,

12:06

women's brains are so unreliable.

12:10

Um, So they go back down into

12:12

the cave and they basically

12:14

find all of the dead bodies of her friends.

12:16

They find the cave dwellers again.

12:19

But guess what, Juno has survived

12:23

and she wait, she like

12:26

fought everyone off with her broken leg, with

12:28

her broken right, with her stabbed leg, and

12:31

yeah, so she she's survived. And

12:34

basically the rest of the cast dies

12:37

except for Sarah and Juno. They are

12:39

like kind of the two final girls at the end

12:42

and they sort of reconcile where they're like,

12:44

we have to protect each other, and they both they

12:46

kind of both like martyr themselves

12:49

for each other. So the

12:51

second movie kind of it

12:53

ends. It ends in a way that I like better

12:56

than how this first movie sounds

12:58

like how I wanted the first This movie the end

13:01

was like that they would somehow be

13:04

what I was hoping. Yeah, I mean, I'm like, maybe this is

13:06

shooting too high for a movie, a man wrote

13:08

in two thousand five. But I was

13:11

hoping that they would have some sort of like intense

13:14

cave discussion there in the

13:16

Vagina, and they're just like, wait

13:18

a second, Like, you know, it's very

13:21

I feel like sometimes in these situations it's

13:23

like maybe her husband was like

13:26

an total asshole who like

13:28

misled both of them and all

13:30

this stuff, and they're like, Okay, well, good

13:33

thing, you got stabbed. Let's

13:35

get out of here, or you know whatever whatever

13:37

that they have some some sort of like they

13:40

don't have to like each other, but some some

13:42

kind of thing that doesn't involve just murdering

13:44

each other. But I'm glad that that man

13:47

that's so is horror sequels

13:49

never correct things. That's great. Yeah,

13:53

did you guys read the IMDb trivia

13:55

because you keep calling it the Vagina And

13:58

one of the trivia pieces was that

14:00

so all the caves were obviously not

14:02

real, they built like twenty one different caves,

14:05

and that they called that tight

14:07

narrow one of vagina they

14:09

would always be like all were going in. Yeah, so I

14:11

thought that's like you guys were referring to. I

14:13

thought everyone read the trivia like me, Wait,

14:17

that's so fun yeah. Anytime

14:20

you drop a female cast into a large

14:22

kavernart space and the movies

14:24

written by a man, I'm like, well, we know what this is

14:26

about. Like, yeah,

14:29

I guess. He So he did Dog Soldiers,

14:32

which I still haven't seen, and then

14:34

they asked him to do this and he was like,

14:37

I don't really want to get like known as a like horror

14:40

director. And then something

14:43

changed and he was like, all right, screwt, let's do it. But

14:46

you know I want to do with an all female cast and a

14:48

sin a family. He put it better than and how

14:50

it's put on IMDb. He was just like, you

14:53

know, with women, they are more likely

14:55

to talk about their feelings about why they're

14:57

in the situation, versus like the men I

14:59

write don't talk about feelings. I was like,

15:02

okay, thank thank you, but

15:04

it's in a family. He was like, he's like, well,

15:06

women have more dynamic and I was like, yeah,

15:09

okay, I like that. He's like, I think we need to see more

15:11

movies with like all cast of woman and

15:13

he's like, so I asked all my female friends. I'm

15:15

like, you know, it's so funny. Is what you should have done?

15:17

You should have given the movie to a woman to

15:20

direct and write. It's cute that you wanted

15:22

to learn to be a woman, John Sweden,

15:24

But you could just give the project

15:27

to a woman and

15:29

then yeah, and then he did it and and

15:31

then I guess they made them all like have different

15:34

accents because he had like a primarily

15:36

UK film. Actually I get the ending of

15:38

this movie often confused with the Ruins

15:41

the genem alone. Basically

15:44

I don't even remember. She gets stuck in a pyramid

15:46

or something. It's like a bunch of white people go to like

15:48

a brown country and they get stuck in a pyramid.

15:51

But then the pyramid like create

15:53

some virus or disease and if you leave,

15:56

and then like the natives they think are like, don't

15:58

leave your curt But then

16:00

eventually she gets away and the ending but is infected.

16:03

So I always get the ending of the Descent

16:05

in this mixture. Two entirely different

16:08

movies, extremely different.

16:10

But I think the early two thousand's horror films

16:12

where it gave you that hopeless ending was

16:15

like kind of a thing. Yeah, for sure, except

16:17

for the American ending. I like, I like a hopeless

16:20

ending. I do too, I love

16:22

a hopeless ending. I don't care about life. Let's

16:24

do it. I'm like, you know, like, realistically,

16:27

there's rarely a last girl in life,

16:30

you know, Yeah, I kind

16:32

of when I went back and watched the UK ending

16:35

to this, I mean, we'll talk about but like, I mean,

16:37

obviously it's more bleak, but I'm

16:39

like, this makes more sense. This

16:42

makes more sense. Yeah, and more

16:44

likely that that would have would have happened that way.

16:46

Probably, Yeah, they were all fucked.

16:49

Ye. Well should I recap

16:52

the movie and then we can really dive

16:55

in, we can really descend

16:57

into the discussion. Let's

17:00

do it. Okay, So we

17:03

open on a group of three

17:05

kind of like adrenaline junkie women.

17:08

They are Sarah, Beth, and Juno,

17:11

who we see like whitewater rafting. Sarah

17:14

has a husband and her young daughter

17:17

and they are brutally killed in a

17:20

car accident on the drive home. But I can't

17:22

emphasize it enough. A truck

17:25

with spears on top of it, and the spears

17:28

are loose. They

17:30

were like, I think they're just like narrow pipes,

17:33

which might be foreshadowing the narrow

17:35

pipiness of it all. I

17:39

really did appreciate. I kind of like when like

17:42

a horror movie cuts to the chase of like,

17:44

no, this is gonna be a gory one because

17:46

the second you see that whatever

17:48

it is go through her husband's head right

17:51

after she's like, babe,

17:53

you're distant because he's cheating on her, and

17:55

then he's like um, and then it's just instant

17:58

karma piped through the head. Yes.

18:03

Um. So Sarah is obviously devastated,

18:06

and then we cut to one year later. She's

18:08

still dealing with the grief, but she

18:11

decides to go cave diving in

18:13

Appalachia with her friends

18:15

Beth and Juno, as well as some other friends,

18:18

Becca, Becca's sister Sam

18:21

who is a med school student, and

18:24

Holly, who is the one who's like kind of

18:26

the most reckless and thrilled speaking

18:28

of the group. One of the group,

18:31

right. She descends quickly and

18:35

then they head for bore Um

18:38

Cave, or what they think is

18:40

bore Um Cave. They arrive

18:43

at the mouth of a cave and begin there

18:46

descents right

18:49

away. When they're inside, some something's

18:51

happened. There's like a bloody handprint, A

18:54

bunch of bats fly around and startle

18:57

them. There was a dead deer right near

18:59

the mouth of the cave, and We're like, hmm, I wonder

19:01

if anything bad is going to happen.

19:03

They start poking at it like a dead body,

19:06

like and stand by me or something. It's like, you guys want

19:08

to see a dead body and we start poking. They're

19:10

like, come on, we gotta go. We have

19:12

to have a descent, Okay, So

19:15

they go further into the cave. They

19:17

go down this narrow tunnel,

19:20

which I guess was the vagina is

19:22

what they called it on set. I

19:24

mean, yeah, I mean there's

19:27

a pool full of blood at the center of it. I

19:29

mean it's very it's a very siss

19:31

normative situation

19:33

they're descending into. Uh

19:38

so they don't know where

19:40

they're going. It's very dark and scary.

19:42

And then Sarah gets stuck in one

19:44

of these very narrow tunnels. She starts

19:47

panicking. The tunnel starts

19:49

to collapse. So

19:52

I actually had to walk out of the room at

19:54

one point. I was like, I can't even watch this.

19:57

That was the scariest part for me. The

19:59

claustrophobia. Yeah, I definitely

20:01

have claustrophobia, and that was my

20:04

worst nightmare. Like I'd rather deal with the cave dwellers

20:06

and yeah, yeah, like

20:09

once you get to the cave dwellers, we're like, okay,

20:11

this is like this is imagination, but that

20:13

like moment of horror at the beginning, because at the beginning

20:16

of this movie, I was like, Oh, I've kind of always

20:18

wanted to do that, and then immediately

20:20

you're like, I've had a

20:22

change of heart. Yeah. Yeah,

20:25

So Beth helps her get out,

20:28

but one of the bags of ropes gets lost

20:30

in the rubble, and then that way out is

20:33

now blocked. So did they send it with the

20:35

last person? Though? Right? Questions?

20:37

Why? Yeah, that is a good question.

20:40

Why do we ever find out? This is maybe

20:42

a plot hole bit? But why doesn't Juno take

20:44

the book? Like? Is it just because

20:46

she's like, we're so bad? But it's like if she

20:49

knew the book that she has

20:51

is for Borom Cave, but they

20:53

don't go into Borom caves, so that's why she

20:56

doesn't bring it. She's like, why bother that

20:58

makes more sense, that's right. She is like,

21:00

we don't need this ship because we didn't even go not

21:02

even but I'm gonna rush everyone

21:05

because we've got to get to the vagina. Now there's

21:09

there's also a there's a female

21:11

orgasm joke in there, it's how

21:14

how do you give a lemon an orgasm? You

21:16

touch it's? You

21:19

touch it citrus, which is supposed to sound

21:21

like clitter as it's not a it's

21:23

not a good punchline. I'm like, maybe that

21:25

works better with a Scottish accent. I'm not sure.

21:30

Okay, So that one way out

21:32

is blocked and they're like, no big deal,

21:35

there are two other ways out of Borom

21:37

Cave, right, And that's when we learn Juno

21:40

didn't bring them to Borom Cave. She brought

21:42

them to a different, uncharted

21:45

cave that no one has ever

21:47

been inside of before, or so they

21:50

think shady, but

21:52

this means that they have no idea how to

21:55

navigate it, and no one knows

21:57

they're down there, so if they do turn

22:00

up missing, like the rescue team

22:02

will search the wrong place. Um

22:05

So, then Sarah thinks she sees something

22:08

or someone lurking

22:10

in the distance. Maybe it's a yeast

22:13

infection that's affecting this. I

22:16

was I was just like the U T I lurking

22:18

in Yeah

22:24

as U T I. Do they

22:26

make that sound too? Yeah? You don't

22:28

very echo yeah. Um

22:32

So they move onward to find a

22:34

path out of the cave and they come upon

22:37

this deep ravine that they have to get across,

22:40

and as they're doing that, they notice a

22:42

hook that's already embedded in the

22:45

roof of the cave and they realize

22:47

someone's been downe there before, but it's equipment

22:49

that's like several decades old.

22:51

So they're like, well, if people have been down here before,

22:54

why is this cave still uncharted?

22:57

And they're like, they haven't touched this equipment in

22:59

a Hunters that's my also

23:01

horrible accent, but bear with it. But

23:05

then they come upon some cave

23:07

paintings that show that there's

23:09

another entrance to the cave.

23:11

But then Holly, who loves

23:14

scrambling ahead of everyone, falls

23:16

into a hole and breaks her leg, and

23:19

while the rest of the group is dealing with her

23:21

injury, Sarah hears something.

23:24

She breaks away from the group and sees

23:27

what appears to be a man

23:30

or a kind of humanoid figure.

23:33

She tells everyone. She tells Juno,

23:35

and Juno gaslights a ship at us her

23:38

home wrecker of

23:41

all people to be gaslighting Sarah.

23:43

At this time, jess

23:46

I says, are you shady? So

23:49

no one believes her, but then

23:51

they do, because they all get attacked

23:54

by what turns out to be cave

23:56

dwelling cannibalistic humanoid

24:00

creatures. Wikipedia calls

24:02

them crawlers. It

24:04

kind of looks like I mean, I feel like it

24:06

looks like a variation on so many

24:09

horror movie characters that

24:11

at least I'll give them credit for not making

24:13

the entire head of vagina

24:16

mouth, which is usually what happens, but

24:19

it is still just like a fleshy

24:22

mystery. I

24:26

like that they actually built it to kind of make

24:28

sense. I'm saying this because I also just watched

24:30

A Quiet Place for the first time and you're just like,

24:33

oh, vagina mouth, got it. But

24:35

this one, I mean, I like that they at least like

24:38

took the time to be like, oh, it makes

24:40

sense that this creature would evolve the way it

24:42

did. Like it is kind of like a water

24:45

bats thing. Like it

24:47

makes sense enough. It's really

24:49

scary to look at. I like the mother and

24:52

child pair, no

24:56

no, no no, But I mean there's a little they

24:59

made in this. It's

25:03

very baffling to me that, like the female

25:06

cave dweller has long but

25:10

but the male ones are bald, and

25:13

it's like that's not how

25:16

that works. She also has some cool like

25:18

body chats going on, Like I saw

25:20

some like chess tattoos happening. It was like a chess

25:22

piece that or

25:25

it was a clothing piece or her skin was

25:27

very mutually. I thought she has she

25:29

seems to have like breasts, she's got

25:32

like cave dweller titties.

25:35

It was kind of I mean, I thought that was interesting

25:37

because I felt like in that it's like a conversation

25:40

that I feel like we usually have during animated

25:42

movies where it's like a I

25:45

don't know, like kind of needless gender

25:48

coating where you're like, why are you giving this

25:50

like creature a hairstyle? Like

25:52

what are you doing? Because

25:55

I'm just thinking about her, like what

25:58

what were the decisions? Like someone looked

26:00

at her, they put their hand on their other chins,

26:03

step back, and they're like, yeah, that

26:05

looks I think this is that you guys, I think we've got

26:07

it. We've got the female cavedwaller,

26:09

just the one and her little baby

26:12

that she protects. Yeah, well,

26:14

women be raising children

26:16

without the assistance of the monster father.

26:19

Yeah. I'm also

26:21

just like I guess the

26:23

filmmakers were like, well, most

26:26

women above ground have long

26:28

hair and most men have short

26:31

hair, so that's how these cave

26:33

dwellers will also look.

26:36

They evolved like according to

26:38

Western fashion, which is how evolution

26:41

works. But they did say that

26:43

they were from like a hundred years ago, which

26:45

was a more traditional time.

26:48

Maybe I don't know. I don't really want to see.

26:50

I aren't they supposed to be from?

26:52

Like No, I think it's there

26:55

were other like spi lunkers

26:58

who had tried to explore the cave, but

27:00

they also got murdered by these cave

27:03

dwellers who had been there for I'm guessing

27:05

millennia. Yeah, I guess

27:07

that's not how humans evolved. Yeah,

27:12

well, what do you think it was? Like? I don't

27:14

know this was, don't I honestly wasn't

27:16

thinking about it that hard. But would

27:18

it have been like people who got stuck

27:20

there in like cave dwelling times

27:22

and that's why there's cave paintings, and then

27:24

it's like those people evolved

27:27

into the cave dwells. Yeah,

27:29

that's I think where some of the

27:32

story logic does get a

27:34

bit muddied, because

27:37

you know, in the in the in human migration,

27:40

the humans because they're in Appalachia

27:43

right, humans didn't arrive to

27:46

the America's until

27:48

about you know, there's there's debate

27:51

on exactly when it was, but that was

27:53

somewhere around I think years

27:55

ago is a number that we know think it was.

27:58

So it might just be that very

28:00

you know, early humans had

28:03

gone into these caves, decided

28:05

to stay there, evolved,

28:08

or maybe they got stuck there and they found a way

28:10

to survive and then yeah, generations

28:13

of I don't know, like they evolved

28:16

to the space of like it

28:18

makes total sense that they're blind like

28:20

all that. I don't know, And I mean there's

28:23

I have a whole spiel on like how

28:25

disability is treated in horror

28:27

movies that we'll get into. But

28:30

yeah, I don't know exactly how

28:33

these cave dollars came to be

28:35

there. Yeah, I guess we're not meant to think

28:38

too hard about it. Yeah, we just have to

28:40

suspend our disbelief. But I just still

28:42

want to know why they chose for

28:44

the female to have long, curly

28:47

hair and like chest and armed tattoos.

28:50

And she did not pass the backdel

28:52

test for sure, she didn't

28:54

have a name. She protected a man. We

28:57

never got time with her. I think she was the one to underserved

29:00

female of the film Justice,

29:03

and of the only things we knew about her was

29:05

that she was a mother. Yes, yes,

29:07

a loving, heartfelt

29:09

mother who would die for her

29:11

own And I think we should take a moment

29:14

of silence for this lost

29:16

cave dweller. I know, because

29:18

she gets stabbed in the eyeball. Oh,

29:21

I know. So Sarah has spotted

29:23

one of the cave dwellers.

29:25

No one believes her. Then they get attacked. Holly

29:28

gets killed by one of the cave people.

29:31

Juno manages to kill one

29:33

of them, but then she also accidentally

29:36

stabs Beth and leaves

29:38

her there to die poopsies.

29:41

I'll have a whole thing about that as well. We'll

29:43

get there. Then Juno,

29:46

Becca, and Sam they're trying to find

29:48

their way out. Sarah has gotten separated

29:50

from the group and she finds Beth,

29:53

who was not all the way dead yet. And

29:55

Beth is like, don't trust Juno.

29:58

She did this to me. Also, she

30:00

was having an affair with your husband, and

30:03

she's like, well shit. In

30:05

my opinion, Beth is really blowing

30:07

her last moments on earth, like getting into

30:09

other people's business. It's like, do

30:12

you have like a family that you would like a message

30:14

passed on to or are you just gonna like

30:17

gossip into an early grave? Like what's

30:19

going on? It's

30:21

like, well, I have no choice but to just

30:24

tell you this because fuck everything

30:27

and bleeds to death imagine why

30:29

they're dying breath to be like by the

30:32

way, um,

30:34

did you know? It's

30:37

so bizarre right, Like this is

30:39

like literally a matter of life and

30:41

death. Like that's the thing. Like this movie

30:44

was like women are so petty that

30:46

in their dying breaths they're going

30:48

to gossip and they're going to murder

30:51

each other. Wow, that's real. Which

30:53

is interesting because they're

30:56

all like, you know, thrill seekers, and they

30:58

all knew what they knew it would be like some

31:00

danger doing this, um, whether

31:02

it was charted or uncharted. But

31:05

the fact that like all of a sudden, they all freak

31:07

out and have no idea what to do, Like they

31:09

all just freak out and like, wait, don't

31:11

you all like to do this? You know? Like parkor

31:13

over here is just like jumping around and like splits

31:16

her bone out of her legs and I'm like, what the what

31:18

are you doing? I feel like you should know you should

31:21

be a little more conscious and then oh,

31:23

I love Okay, I don't even think you've gotten there. I'll let

31:25

you continue. Um okay. So then

31:27

Sarah manages to kill a few of

31:30

the cave dwellers. Then Becca

31:32

and Sam get killed, and so

31:34

now it's only Sarah in JUNO.

31:37

Wait, but Sam's death was I

31:40

feel bad because I laugh every time

31:42

because she's like fucking up

31:44

going to I'm going across and she like starts

31:47

hooking up and and

31:49

then she puts the knife in her mouth when

31:52

the cage dweller comes at her, and

31:54

I was like, Oh, she's gonna use a knife to like stab

31:56

it, but then it splits

31:59

her throat and then she just leads

32:03

out. It was like, wait, what was

32:06

the point of any of that. That's the other

32:08

fun example of instant karma

32:11

in this movie that I really thought was fun

32:13

was like she's about to ditch all of her

32:15

friends and then immediately it just it just

32:18

blows up in her face in the worst

32:20

possible way, and she wastes rope.

32:23

I'm like, selfish, right,

32:25

she done goofed? I think I might have misinterpreted

32:28

that. I thought she was like trying to kind

32:30

of martyr herself to like get

32:33

but I don't know. That doesn't make any sense.

32:35

She was bailing. She was leaving just

32:38

like freaked out. It was like I'm

32:40

over this, I've been over this. She

32:43

I think her pipe was like I don't really know most

32:45

of the people on this trip very well, like come

32:48

on. I

32:51

think that was like park Or. Also sorry, I can't

32:54

help but call her Parkor. But I

32:56

felt like she was also like this dude,

32:58

just like skirted out. We're like, where you bro,

33:01

where are you going? She thinks

33:03

she sees daylight. Yeah, they're

33:06

like it's phosphorus in the rocks or something.

33:09

Fact, now I know that you

33:11

know which we're gonna do after

33:14

this. Um okay.

33:16

So Becca and Sam get killed and now

33:18

it's only Sarah and Juno. They

33:21

join up and Sarah is like, hey, Juno,

33:24

I heard you were having an affair with my husband.

33:27

Stab kind of

33:29

stabs her in the leg and leaves her to be eaten

33:32

by the cave people, which was

33:35

I thought a more colder move

33:37

than to just kill her. She's

33:39

like, bitch, I'm not going to kill you. I'm gonna

33:41

just let you fight in fear for

33:43

your life. Also like why

33:46

would she leave her behind? I mean, I understand

33:48

why she was like, draw the attention

33:50

to you so I can bounce, But it really

33:52

felt very like Sarah's character was so

33:55

hard to keep up with because I was like, what's your

33:58

what is your intention going

34:00

into this strip? Why? Why? Why?

34:02

I had to be honest, there's like three

34:05

blonde women in the cave,

34:08

and it's so dark that sometimes I'm like,

34:10

I don't know which blonde woman it is. I appreciate

34:13

that they keep saying everybody's name very frequently,

34:15

because I'm just like, I don't know if this is a

34:17

protagonist blonde woman or an

34:20

ancillary blond woman. Well,

34:24

like you mentioned Derby, the director was like, yes,

34:26

I gave the women different accents so we

34:29

could tell them apart. And it's like that didn't

34:31

work at all. It's

34:34

like, have some more women of color in

34:36

the group, that would help. Yeah, exactly

34:38

two thousand and five, black people weren't around yet

34:40

at that point. What happened

34:42

here, I really couldn't get, like one black British

34:45

person, get Naomi

34:47

what's her face? From twenty days later?

34:51

She's great In twenty days later, I got to

34:53

rewatch that. That's a good rewatch. I just

34:55

rewatched very quarantine friendly.

34:58

Yes, I'm and there's so few Naomi

35:01

Harris, right, Naomie Harris, Yes,

35:03

sweet Angel who she stopped aging. I

35:05

think after twenty days later she looks

35:08

exactly the same. Yes, Oh,

35:10

she's in the new James Bond to Oh

35:13

that's right. Yeah, um

35:16

okay. So then they're then the ending

35:18

in there, Jamie. Like you mentioned, there

35:21

are two different two versions of the ending.

35:23

There's the US cut, in

35:25

which Sarah makes her escape.

35:28

She finds the other exit,

35:31

crawls on top of a pile of bones

35:33

to get up out of the cave. I also feel

35:35

like when she emerges through like

35:37

the tiny little hole, that's going to be like how

35:40

we all come out of quarantine. We're

35:42

just like we're like popping out of

35:44

the ground, seeing daylight for the first

35:47

time in a while. We're all covered in blood,

35:49

and gets like a mile away from

35:51

our homes, then burst into tears like

35:54

yeah real, yeah.

35:56

Anyway, so she she gets out, she makes

35:58

her way to the car, drives away a

36:01

little bit, pulls over, vomits, and then

36:03

she has a hallucination of of Juno

36:06

being in the car with her, and then we smashed

36:08

cut to black now that I think

36:10

the same thing happens in the UK version.

36:12

But then there's a little bit more. We smash cut

36:15

back to the toy,

36:18

back to reality, right

36:23

where she had just hallucinated her

36:25

escape. She wakes up. She

36:27

sees like another hallucination of her daughter

36:30

and a birthday cake, and then all

36:32

the cave dwellers descend upon

36:35

They dissent upon her, uh

36:38

and then she presumably dies.

36:40

I read that the US ending is

36:43

the US ending because they

36:46

did a screening in the US of

36:48

the u K. And they were like, oh hell

36:50

no that I remember reading quote. It

36:52

was uber uber hopeless.

36:55

Yes, because

36:58

American movie go ours. Really they

37:01

like a happy ending. We're very fragile.

37:04

Yeah, I

37:07

think I like the UK ending

37:10

better. Same. I've watched the I

37:12

watched the whole movie through with the American ending,

37:14

then found out about the UK ending. I

37:17

like it better. I like my ending

37:20

the best, and my ending is Sarah

37:23

and Juno both live. Sarah

37:25

doesn't try to kill her friend.

37:27

She's still mad at her, but she's like, come on,

37:30

we'll deal with this on the surface. Let's

37:32

get out of here. They apologize

37:35

to the cave people for trespassing

37:38

on their land. They're like, so sorry, we shouldn't

37:40

have we should have never come. Are

37:42

bad? Get them like a year's

37:44

supply of animals. Open

37:47

a small business. I want them to open a small

37:49

business. Yes, yes

37:51

they do. They start like a diner in the middle

37:53

of the woods. Yeah. Uh

37:57

well, let's take a quick break and then we

38:00

will come right back and

38:07

we're back. I want to give this movie

38:10

props up top for

38:13

I mean, in terms of the metric

38:15

we use the Bechdel test, this

38:17

movie really couldn't

38:19

fare better. It's mostly

38:22

women talking to women about surviving

38:25

the whole cave situation. Um,

38:28

I think the one but but the one, like, the

38:31

one male presence looming over

38:33

this movie is her

38:37

husband, and I

38:39

think, I mean, I don't

38:41

know. I mean, it's it's not certainly not the

38:43

most egregious example of this, and

38:45

so I wasn't like extremely put

38:48

off. But Caitlin, I feel like you already kind

38:50

of alluded to this, was that the

38:52

whole element of like the jealousy

38:55

and the suspicion and that

38:58

kind of translating to basically

39:01

leaving Juno for dead at the peak of the

39:03

movie when we don't really know enough about the husband

39:05

and I feel like the movie just assumes that the husband

39:08

was an awesome guy, which is like, well, we don't

39:10

know that. We see him for two seconds and he's

39:12

being distant and he

39:15

was cheating, and he was cheating on her. So it's

39:17

like I feel like it was like

39:19

a slight writer

39:21

telling on themselves situation where it's

39:23

like, well, he was her husband, so I'm

39:26

sure that he was. It was just you know, he

39:28

was tricked. He was you know, because women,

39:31

you know, women be tricking men and whatever.

39:33

One of the oldest tropes in the book. But I

39:35

didn't think it's interesting that. I mean, I

39:37

don't really necessarily want them to burn

39:40

any time in this movie, like talking

39:42

about this husband, I don't really care, but

39:45

it does seem to kind of assume that, like he

39:47

was a great guy and therefore all

39:49

of the blame for this infidelity is

39:52

on Juno. Right.

39:54

Yeah, I didn't really think about that. He is kind of

39:56

looming. He is kind of looming over the

39:59

movie because we think of it. I mean, I really

40:01

love how they told the moments, like I feel like

40:03

it was so to the point, like we did

40:06

not suck around, we didn't get

40:08

little lovey dovey moments, but that moment where

40:10

he walks over to Juno when they get out the raft,

40:12

I was like, oh, you are so shady.

40:16

Oh no, And then Beth catches on and

40:18

I'm like, mm hmm, that that's kind of shady

40:20

too for not saying anything. I feel like a

40:23

good friend should say something personally,

40:25

you know, like if someone if

40:28

one of my best friends in this trio

40:30

knew you were cheating or my husband

40:33

was cheating on me with other friends, mit,

40:35

you better tell me. You know, you

40:37

gotta tell each other things, and you have to

40:39

believe each other and not not system.

40:43

So I'm on life system. Juno is

40:45

clearly like, I mean, it takes two

40:47

to tango in this situation and the friend

40:50

betrayal, Like that's the

40:52

worst, that's a horrible thing to do. But

40:54

I do. But but I don't think that this

40:57

movie really recognizes the two to tango

40:59

situ vation unless Sarah

41:01

is so like Galaxy

41:04

braining her own grief, which we know she isn't

41:07

that She's like, well, I can't hold my

41:09

husband accountable at this point, so I'm

41:11

shifting the blame. I don't. I don't know what's really

41:13

coming again,

41:16

like I understand Sarah's

41:19

anger and feelings of betrayal

41:21

when she finds out that Juno was

41:24

having this affair, but to the extent

41:26

that you're going to let her

41:29

die and be eaten alive by

41:31

these like cannibalistic cave

41:34

dwellers, Sarby you were saying, and like

41:36

I do kind of I'm kind of assuming

41:39

that this is what Neil Marshall is going for, is

41:41

that like this experience has

41:43

like hardened Sarah so much

41:46

that it's like, you know, you have

41:48

wronged me, and like this is a game

41:50

of survival, and like I

41:52

don't need you to survive anymore, and you've wronged

41:55

me, so you know, fuck you. I'm leaving

41:58

to steal your car. I guess, yeah,

42:02

but yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's I'm kind

42:04

of I was kind of glad that like that

42:07

was I mean, it is definitely a

42:09

thing, and it also I feel like it's compounded

42:12

by the fact that Natalie Mendoza

42:15

is the only woman of color in this entire

42:17

movie, and she is like the villain

42:19

of the story, and she is like this temptress

42:22

and she is you know, I mean,

42:24

it's a lot of negative stereotypes

42:28

like all foisted upon this one character. She's

42:30

also the only American character, but American

42:32

people are horrible and they'll probably steal

42:35

your husband. But

42:37

I mean just also the fact that she was the one

42:40

to like trick them, like,

42:43

we're not going to the cave where

42:45

we're like safe and that's actually been

42:48

charted. We're discovering this nuke and

42:50

her what she tells Sarah is that you

42:53

know, I was doing this for you. We were

42:55

going to name the cave after you, Like this

42:57

whole thing is so that you can help

43:00

get over your grief or I don't even know

43:02

what logic was. I will say that

43:05

line made me laugh a lot because

43:07

I'm like, imagine naming a cave Sarah,

43:10

Like what, welcome

43:12

to the Sarah Cave. You're

43:14

just like his name sucks. Let's

43:16

let's pick another. But yeah,

43:19

yeah, I was looking into

43:22

and we sort of talked about it already, but like

43:24

the casting process for this movie, because I was

43:26

curious of like, wow, was

43:28

this a movie that was written for women

43:32

specifically? And it

43:34

wasn't originally, which which I think

43:36

is kind of interesting and like harkens back

43:38

to stuff we've talked about before. Where it was supposed to

43:40

be a cast of men

43:43

and women. But then Neil

43:45

Marshall's business partner said,

43:48

hey, horror movies never have all women,

43:50

so marketing, and

43:53

Neil Marshall was like, okay,

43:56

and then and then it says and again

43:58

this is we're about to give him like

44:00

a trophy for the bare minimum. But

44:03

it does. It was said in a lot of press at

44:05

the time that after deciding Okay,

44:07

I'm going to cast you know, all women

44:10

in this movie, he talked

44:13

to women. He knew, I

44:15

know, like the thing that

44:17

male screen writers never ever do. He's

44:20

like, I asked for their advice, and I asked,

44:22

you know, what are things that they say and talk

44:24

about. I'm like, what, We're like a creature

44:26

you've never delved again, Also,

44:29

give the damn movie to a woman's direct

44:31

and to write and to oversee, like

44:33

how many men were behind that camera making

44:36

that movie. That's I want to know. I'm

44:38

saying. For the for the sequel, the editor,

44:41

the male editor of the first movie directed

44:43

the sequel, which is like, come but

44:48

but I do. I mean, it's like, I mean as

44:50

far as I mean, Kittlie, and you've talked

44:52

about this before. In terms of like your classes

44:55

of Like, if you are a male

44:57

writer that wants to write about women, the

45:00

least you can do is do your

45:02

homework, like and talk to women. And

45:05

I don't know, the interactions

45:08

with women, especially like the hanging out at

45:10

the beginning and stuff like that, like it felt pretty

45:12

authentic. I don't know. I was like light

45:15

impressed. I was like, all right, Nel

45:18

Marshall talked to a woman about this, just

45:20

imagine. Yeah. I like that they were all

45:22

hungover too, Like yeah,

45:24

I like that they all got like wasted and smoked

45:27

weed, low key and all

45:29

that. And I was like there were moments I was like, these are

45:31

a women, but I really didn't think deeper

45:34

on. Yeah, it's like that we're going to make

45:36

them petty. Like Sarah's character was just

45:38

so much more of a tool than an actual person,

45:40

Like she was just there to like help set

45:43

shut up and make things happen. Because I'm like, you

45:45

know what, if you are the type of person to just

45:48

go and kill your friend that your husband cheated

45:50

on you with, you know, a bitch, maybe you deserve

45:52

to be cheated on. I

45:56

said it. I

45:58

just don't like, I mean,

46:00

I like that you have a depiction

46:02

of like these complicated female

46:05

friendships where like one of them is doing

46:08

something wrong and like

46:10

going behind her friends back and having this

46:12

affair. Like people are

46:15

complex, people make horrible mistakes,

46:18

people do really bad things. But like again

46:20

the movie, like the suggestion that

46:24

she's like, well, I know

46:26

we were best friends up until five

46:28

minutes ago, but now I'm going to kill you. Um,

46:31

I just the thing for me. Like

46:33

the first half or maybe even

46:35

the first like sixty

46:38

minutes of this movie, I think are like really

46:41

good for looking at

46:43

it through our lens of Like women

46:45

are shown being very capable. We

46:48

see them having physical strength, we see

46:50

them being athletic, like all this stuff

46:52

they're doing, I like that. Um it seems

46:54

like there was care taken. And like each

46:57

woman in the in the group

46:59

has um like specialty

47:01

that is not like Mary Sue, that is like established

47:04

in their character that is able to move

47:06

the action forward. Where there's like someone who's

47:08

a medical student and so she's able to do first

47:10

aid when someone's like gets busted, and like everyone

47:13

has some knowledge that is able

47:15

to assist in moving

47:18

forward, which is like good right, And

47:20

you know women don't always get there for sure,

47:23

and like we see them like have to fight

47:25

off the cave dwellers

47:27

in a way that is not sexualized,

47:30

like one of the like one of the major tropes

47:32

of horror movies and especially like slasher

47:35

movies is women

47:37

being sexualized and then also being

47:39

shamed for being

47:41

sexual so you don't get any of

47:44

that. They have like outdoorsy

47:46

skills. We see Sarah like

47:49

she figures out that there's like I think,

47:51

what's kerosene in an old

47:53

lantern. She uses that to light

47:56

a torch, which she has to do

47:58

like a flint kind of like that was

48:00

cool. I was like, oh, that's where I would have

48:02

died. I guess right exactly.

48:05

So we see that. We see Becca is the

48:08

one who crosses like the

48:10

ceiling of the ravine and like all

48:12

that upper body string she needs to and

48:15

you can tell how much she's struggling, but

48:18

it's still like you believe that she would

48:20

be capable of that. Then

48:22

it's Beth who like notices

48:24

the cave painting and like interprets

48:26

it because everyone else is just like this is nothing,

48:29

and she's like no, wait, like let's

48:31

read this. Let's like look at these clues.

48:34

The first yeah, the first chunk of the movie, it's

48:37

all this really cool stuff

48:39

that you see these women do, and

48:42

I was like, oh, I and I and I didn't

48:44

exactly remember how things

48:47

ended, so I was like really getting

48:49

all geared up to be like this is like a feminist

48:51

masterpiece, Like definitely

48:53

there's not enough diversity. It's

48:57

five of the six women are white,

49:00

ry heteronormative, in spite of seeming

49:02

to like suggest I thought

49:04

something was being suggested between Holly

49:06

and Juno, but then it's kind of dropped. I don't

49:09

know, Yeah, I did the

49:11

moment, yeah, And I was hoping that they

49:13

would just make it explicit of like oh, these

49:16

are two either gay or

49:18

bisexual characters. Awesome, but

49:20

but then they kind of just drop it and they're like no,

49:22

no, no, no no. And then Holly like even

49:25

it's like no no no, no, no, no no no, I want

49:27

to have a lot of hetero babies, and

49:29

you're just like okay, Holly, Like, um,

49:38

so, I think there's like some

49:41

really cool subversions of

49:43

the horror genre that we're seeing in

49:46

this movie. But then man gets fridged.

49:49

Man Yes, yeah, he and the

49:51

only man we see, or at least

49:53

the only man right

49:56

gets killed almost instantly, so it's

49:59

it's a lot of like cool subversions.

50:01

But then like by act three the

50:04

script, this writer was like, oh wait, I forgot

50:06

that women are really petty. I have to write

50:08

this into the movie. They're also in a

50:10

huge vagina there. I'm sorry,

50:13

I just can't say it enough. I

50:15

like, I just feel so

50:18

just I don't know, like I think this is a very

50:20

inventive, subversive horror movie,

50:22

but like men making horror movies, they literally

50:25

cannot help themselves. Like they can't

50:27

help themselves. There's a huge vaginal metaphor

50:29

in every single one down

50:32

to that. I mean, the pool full of blood at

50:34

the heart of that. I mean it's just like

50:37

it's like that's the ter we

50:39

get it, honey, Like just

50:42

call your mom, like I don't know what to tell you,

50:45

to tell you. I also feel like usually when we

50:47

see women who are hallucinating in films

50:50

or like you know, are seeing things that we

50:52

the audience are also seeing with her,

50:55

that usually it's men like you're just crazy,

50:58

you're making it up, or it's like some old or

51:00

a woman mother character who's like, yeah, I know you're

51:02

just seeing things. But I think seeing everyone

51:05

doing that with her was also kind of breaking

51:07

that stereotype of like sometimes

51:09

people just don't believe people, like

51:11

I think that. I kind of like that we were seeing everyone,

51:14

well Juneo gaslighting her, but even Beth

51:17

is like, you're just seeing things. It's okay.

51:20

But I was like, it's why don't they They

51:22

should believe her. I feel like they shell also be more sympathetic

51:24

because she just lost her child

51:27

and her husband, which in the griefing

51:29

process, a year is like a second, Like

51:32

that's really not a lot of time from like what your

51:34

life was going to be. The rest of it then turns

51:36

into nothing, which I was also

51:38

like, they don't spend a lot of time on the grief. I

51:41

was like, yeah, yeah, that thing that happened, right, You

51:43

get like flashbacks of her having kind

51:45

of like dreams or visions

51:47

of like the accident and

51:50

stuff, but we really don't know. We

51:52

don't learn anything about her daughter or her husband

51:55

before they die, so it's like, okay,

51:57

I thought that that I don't know, like that is

52:00

kind of in terms of how

52:02

she is gaslighted by her

52:05

friends. I also thought it was like they

52:07

were dismissive of her because of her grief, and also

52:10

because they're like, well, you're just you're

52:12

just being like on edge because a cave

52:14

just collapsed on your head two seconds

52:17

ago. And I'm like, well, that's a great

52:19

reason to be on edge. But like

52:22

you know, there, that was one that

52:25

was another subversion. There's some

52:27

I mean, we haven't gotten to the parts

52:29

of this movie that I don't love so much, but that

52:32

was a subversion that I thought was fairly

52:35

effective of I

52:37

don't know. I was thinking at the beginning

52:39

of this movie, where something deeply

52:42

traumatic robs a woman of her family.

52:44

Instantly I went to Midsummer

52:47

uh movie that I think couldn't

52:49

handle that plot point any worse

52:52

if it wanted to. Like I just

52:54

the opening sequence

52:56

of Midsummer and this is like some of the most

52:59

irresponsive, bull like treatment of mental

53:01

illness I've ever seen in movies period. But

53:05

I think this movie toes the

53:07

dealing with grief as

53:10

plot I think better

53:12

than a lot of horror movies tend

53:14

to. And it's like, I'm not a huge horror efficient

53:17

out of there. I'm sure there's other movies that deal with it well,

53:19

but I feel like there is maybe a tendency

53:22

and correct me if I'm wrong. But a tendency

53:25

to treat grief as like a

53:27

hindrance, where like

53:29

I think that you know what Sarah is going

53:32

through, actually ends up kind of serving

53:34

her in this situation. It motivates

53:36

her need to survive even though you

53:39

know she's dealing with it. It doesn't prevent

53:41

her from handling the situation at

53:43

hand, even though her friends seem to think

53:46

it is. We find out almost immediately

53:48

like no, she is not, you know, like

53:50

she's not being unreasonable. What she's seeing

53:53

is there. She's telling the truth, and

53:55

it works against the friends to disbelieve

53:57

her because they think that she

53:59

is just like in a bad place. So I thought

54:02

that that Platfoin was was kind of cool,

54:04

of like she's going through this very heavy,

54:07

horrible thing, but it's not, you

54:10

know, it doesn't make it impossible

54:12

for her to survive. It actually kind of helps

54:14

her survive. Everyone else

54:16

is kind of like I don't know, we don't really

54:18

know anyone else's backstory except part

54:21

of Juno's only because of the

54:23

husband and other than

54:26

that, like even Sarah's like trying to find out

54:28

like what everyone else like has kind

54:30

of back home, they like have very small talk

54:32

like so, what man do you have back home?

54:34

Which I was like, are you just assuming everyone

54:37

has a man back home? What if they have a couple of partners?

54:39

What if they have a same sex partner? What if? What?

54:42

And also why is everyone identifying as this

54:44

year? Like there was like obviously no diversity,

54:46

but I'm suial. Marshall's like, div

54:48

who what, I don't know what. I

54:51

don't know anything. I don't know anything. Asked

54:54

me in fifteen years and I'll say I've been doing it all

54:56

wrong like everyone else. But

54:58

yeah, I agree, I think think that it definitely

55:01

is. It's cool, like if I were to put

55:03

aside, like my deeper thoughts

55:05

that we've discussed about, you know how,

55:08

it's kind of weird that she kind of lippd at you know.

55:10

At one point it's like, wait, so now you're

55:13

now you're a total badass. He's like, you know, covered

55:15

in blood and you're kind of a cavewoman who has

55:17

no words anymore. I'm like, I don't

55:19

know. I guess if I was grieving and

55:21

this was just where I was, It's like, alright,

55:24

no time to fucking play anymore. Let's fucking

55:26

do this. Do you know, get out of my way, Like,

55:29

yeah, I can't make a whole lot of sense

55:32

of it. I guess my main thing with that

55:34

whole scenario is I wish that when

55:37

Sarah did reveal that

55:39

she's like I saw someone I thought

55:42

I saw before, and now I definitely saw it and

55:44

I'm not making this up. I'm not imagining

55:46

it. And they're all like, nope, the

55:49

dark place tricks on you and there's

55:51

nothing. You didn't see anything, And I just

55:53

I really wish like even

55:56

if they were incredulous, they should

55:58

have still been like, well, what did

56:00

you what did you see or what do you think

56:03

you saw or what did it look like? And

56:05

like, I just I wish that we had

56:07

seen just them making

56:09

more of an effort to believe her. I mean that is

56:11

that's almost like a story bump too,

56:14

because it's like, at this point, aren't they all

56:16

aware that they are in completely uncharted

56:18

territory, Like it's it's kind

56:21

of like the counterproductive

56:23

to assume that anything you would see is

56:25

not there if it's like, well, what do you know,

56:28

no one's ever been here, you know,

56:30

Like but they also like no one knows how to

56:33

deal with anxiety and I hate

56:35

to bring that piece of ship movie back up again, but

56:37

mids Omar was just like that, like they

56:40

you know, her boyfriend had no idea how to deal with her

56:42

anxiety disorder or

56:45

she bipolar in the film, but like in this

56:47

it's like no one knows how to deal with it,

56:49

which I think spoke to something it's like as

56:51

someone with anxiety, like often people will

56:54

just assume that I'm being dramatic

56:56

or being sensitive, or I'm just seeing

56:58

things. So I felt like when they were like,

57:00

no, no, it's fine, I'm like, that's really

57:03

real. I mean, the conversation has changed a

57:05

lot now, just in time. Regardless

57:07

off that film really happened, could

57:09

happen in real life, like I think,

57:11

you know, as a kid, or even up until

57:13

a few years ago, people still will

57:15

like, you know, just assume I'm yeah,

57:17

being dramatic or overreacting. But

57:20

now there's so much more compassion I

57:22

think in the world, or in at least in our world. And

57:25

and so I think that now if that movie

57:27

is written, I think there would be more like, well, wait, tell

57:29

us what's going on. But I think it kind of it

57:32

seems very real that they were all just like no,

57:34

No, you're just seeing things, you know, regardless

57:37

that Yeah, like you said, like they were in uncharted

57:40

territory, So it's like, I mean anything

57:42

goes out here, like fucking Cageweller,

57:45

Sasquash, anything you name it, which

57:47

they do make a joke about earlier though, like it's

57:49

probably Sasquatch, and I'm like, girl,

57:52

don't play because cuts to like sixty

57:54

minutes into this film. You're gonna

57:56

be a lot You're not gonna be laughing about that. I

57:59

just yeah, I mean, like they at this point,

58:01

I think it's before this that they

58:03

find the cave

58:06

painting, and they had found the

58:08

old equipment, so it's like, well, things aren't

58:10

what they see. You thought, no one's been done here

58:12

before, and you've were proven wrong,

58:15

So why don't you listen to your friend? Why

58:17

don't you open yourself up to this possibility,

58:20

open yourself up like you've

58:22

opened up this vagina of a cave

58:25

and just embark with it. When

58:27

I was watching this, I actually have like a game

58:29

I play internally in movies with

58:32

myself that sounds really dirty, like I try

58:34

to guess like the character's zodiac sign,

58:37

And so I felt like, what you know. I was

58:39

like, she is a stubborn,

58:43

relentless tourists with

58:46

a Gemini moon because

58:50

taurus Is are historically

58:52

stubborn. As someone who dates a Taurus,

58:56

I am a Tauris. Really, yeah, I

58:58

gotta know more about your virtue because if you don't,

59:00

are you a stubborn person? You're stubborn?

59:03

Yeah for some things.

59:05

Yeah, I can be pretty, I can be chill,

59:08

and I contain multitude. I

59:11

wonder what your moon is. Yeah, what's your

59:13

moon? I don't know what that means. So we're gonna

59:15

have to look it up. I'm going to find your birth

59:17

chart. We'll do this after UM.

59:19

But then with Sarah, I was trying to figure

59:22

out what everyone's signs were. And then also as

59:24

I feel like it's the equivalent to like, you know, when people

59:26

want to know my race, for example, it

59:28

gets like them trying to like box me into like

59:31

what they know about them. So I try.

59:33

I'm very like, um, discriminating

59:35

with zodiac signs. I'm like that

59:37

bit just for sure, or Scorpio. She's

59:40

got the loving edge, you know, the loving edge,

59:42

but at the same time she will cut you very

59:44

fast. Um. But some of

59:46

them were you know, a couple of them are definitely sagittarius

59:49

a is, So I just was like, don't let them

59:52

lead. You know, they want to be adventurous, but

59:54

they're also going to be really indecisive and just be

59:56

on their own. I think Sam was

59:58

definitely a sadge. They want

1:00:01

to be out there, but she

1:00:03

was just a scared little shit at the end of the day and

1:00:05

was like indecisive and was keeping

1:00:07

her feelings or was like letting her

1:00:10

feelings overrun everything else without

1:00:12

seeing like logic. Anyways,

1:00:14

that game can go very deep in my brain and

1:00:17

then I'm like, what movie am I watching right now? I

1:00:19

could listen to this for every movie that's ever come

1:00:21

out. If

1:00:23

we need a spinoff back delcast

1:00:26

Um, Zodiac or I don't

1:00:28

even know, just the full like movie

1:00:31

character, what's your placement? Yeah,

1:00:35

um, well, let's take a quick break and then we'll

1:00:37

come back for more discussion and

1:00:45

we're back. So another

1:00:48

thing kind of along the similar

1:00:50

lines of what we were talking about in terms

1:00:53

of kind of like women being pigeonholed

1:00:55

as being petty. That

1:00:58

ties into a horror movie, the

1:01:00

convention of the horror movie

1:01:02

kind of justifying why people

1:01:05

die or get killed right. So like

1:01:08

in a lot of slasher movies, it's

1:01:10

like, if you're a teenager who's sexually

1:01:13

active, you die. The classics.

1:01:16

The classics, I feel like a lot of time men

1:01:19

having too much hubris or

1:01:21

I just won't bring a map. People who won't

1:01:23

bring a map in general, they get they get

1:01:26

killed right. Excessive

1:01:28

pride, recklessness that will

1:01:31

get a man killed. Um. I feel

1:01:33

like oftentimes a woman

1:01:36

being kind of oblivious

1:01:39

or maybe even like to nurturing or

1:01:42

to trusting, or just a failure

1:01:44

to exercise logic overall

1:01:47

will be what gets a woman killed. And

1:01:49

this rang true especially for

1:01:52

Beth beth death

1:01:55

scene where Juno

1:01:57

has just fought off two

1:02:00

I think it's like two different cave dwellers.

1:02:03

She kills one of them by stabbing it several

1:02:05

times, which is really cool, right,

1:02:09

and then someone sneaks up on her and

1:02:11

it's Beth. But Juno doesn't realize this until

1:02:13

it's too late, and she turns around and stabs

1:02:16

Beth in the throat. Timmy fair, isn't

1:02:18

that like an art student or something? I

1:02:21

mean, she's she's

1:02:23

the one who knows what the cave

1:02:25

paintings means, so I was assuming and like, oh,

1:02:28

so she's kind of like she's

1:02:30

an artsy type. She's

1:02:32

not a survivalist, but

1:02:35

she's like she was whitewater rafting.

1:02:37

She she's lunking. Like all these

1:02:40

women are like seem to be very

1:02:42

competent at these like extreme sports that

1:02:44

they're doing. So for me, like

1:02:47

Beth, what, like wouldn't she have just

1:02:49

witnessed Juno killing

1:02:51

these like cave dwellers and like,

1:02:54

wouldn't she approach with caution

1:02:57

and like exercise some logic and

1:02:59

not just sneak up on someone who would be

1:03:01

very easily startled. I agree,

1:03:04

but I just didn't interpret that as gendered.

1:03:07

I mean, I don't think it was like a

1:03:09

very informed or thoughtful decision,

1:03:11

but it didn't. I don't know, I

1:03:13

didn't read I read that as like thoughtless but not gendered,

1:03:17

especially because I think it would be one thing if

1:03:19

if many of the other characters were men and they

1:03:22

died in a way that wasn't so like

1:03:24

they're oblivious. I would

1:03:26

have read that as more gendered. But it's still

1:03:29

But I think it is a gender trope in other horror

1:03:31

movies with mixed casts. So I was disappointed

1:03:33

to see a pop up in this movie. I mean, I guess,

1:03:36

I guess that to me, like that kind

1:03:38

of certain I mean, that certainly serves to further villainized

1:03:42

Juno, even though like when I saw that, I'm like,

1:03:44

oh, well, that's like really unfortunate.

1:03:46

And of course she's going to lie

1:03:49

about it because you don't want people

1:03:51

to get mad at you, and they're already mad

1:03:53

at you for bringing them

1:03:55

into an unmarked cave. But

1:03:59

like, and so I don't know, I feel like that's that

1:04:01

ultimately, that decision like further

1:04:04

villainized Juno where I don't know, I just

1:04:06

didn't care about Beth and then and

1:04:08

then and then and then when she was dying,

1:04:10

she was just you know, gossiping to

1:04:13

the grave. So she was

1:04:15

hanging in there though, because a while passed

1:04:17

when she came up and she was like, I

1:04:20

was like, oh you're still around, Like how

1:04:22

did you still literally

1:04:24

drowning in your own blood for the last

1:04:27

Like so

1:04:29

this isn't and that you can still speak

1:04:31

enough to gossip with your friend.

1:04:35

Yeah, part of me has to admire

1:04:37

it, but that was a very

1:04:39

bizarre choice. Yeah, I do

1:04:41

agree, though, Caitlin. You made a good point about

1:04:43

how it's like, yeah, there was a lot of um and

1:04:46

derby words. There was a lot of cool ship that happened

1:04:48

with the characters up until the Cage Dwellers

1:04:51

came out, and then the writer was like, oh ship,

1:04:53

yeah, women are let's do all these

1:04:55

things. And who knows because I'm sure what

1:04:58

you know as the writer listens to this episode,

1:05:01

that they're gonna feel very defensive And no,

1:05:03

I didn't think that, but it's like, but there's

1:05:05

something to be said and that you know,

1:05:07

the same conversations happening about white supremacy

1:05:10

and the covert and overt behaviors that we all

1:05:12

harbor, I as a black person harbor, and

1:05:15

that you know, it's like we harbor

1:05:18

a lot of sexism. And I think

1:05:20

the writer maybe thinking like, well, this is

1:05:22

you know, women can keep it cool until

1:05:25

she goes down, and then they're gonna turn on each

1:05:27

other. They're gonna gossip to the bloody grave,

1:05:29

They're gonna stab each other in the leg

1:05:32

with a pick. But I think that, like if

1:05:34

I hope that the writer hears that, and

1:05:36

that Neil Marshall hears that, and it's like, well,

1:05:39

why why is it that when women are

1:05:41

saving and protecting themselves like

1:05:44

that, they actually just fully abandon

1:05:46

all the rules, right, they were like rule number

1:05:48

two, don't leave each other, and

1:05:51

then they all left each other. There was

1:05:53

no like, you know, Juno couldn't be in leadership

1:05:55

anymore for everyone, which I thought made

1:05:58

sense for her character because she was

1:06:00

obviously like going through her own

1:06:02

ship. She's like, I can do this cave trip

1:06:05

with Sarah. Oh my god, no I can't. I'm

1:06:07

a horrible person, but I just need

1:06:09

to like make up for it. But everyone

1:06:11

else it was just it

1:06:13

was just weird. It was like all the character strengths

1:06:17

were abandoned as soon

1:06:19

as the Cagewellers, which I think obviously

1:06:21

what happened. No one's going to do it perfectly, but

1:06:24

yeah, I guess when I think about it now, that was

1:06:26

obviously when the movie shifted, but the characters

1:06:29

greatly shifted and the writer like

1:06:31

abandoned, and it like it

1:06:33

does imply that, yeah, like women at their

1:06:36

like core or whatever, like when

1:06:38

you're down to that survivalist core, that

1:06:40

these are like inherent behaviors

1:06:43

where which sucks.

1:06:46

And it's like, I don't know, I feel like, yeah, more

1:06:48

often when you have like a majority

1:06:51

male cast. It's like the hero jumps

1:06:53

out when you're like brought to your you

1:06:56

know, Revenant Survivalist. I haven't seen

1:06:58

that movie, but like whatever you get

1:07:00

inside a bear and you live man,

1:07:03

because that's what you do. That

1:07:06

is that what happens? I don't know. But more

1:07:08

like like I just and

1:07:11

it does seem like I I don't know. I would be surprised

1:07:13

if Neil Marshall was like explicitly

1:07:16

thinking, like you're saying Derby like, well,

1:07:18

women are like this, so I'm

1:07:20

going to write that. But but it is just like

1:07:23

another weird example of someone kind

1:07:25

of telling on themselves, possibly

1:07:27

unintentionally. Men men

1:07:30

be telling on themselves. Man, all

1:07:32

the stuff they get me a hat

1:07:34

that says men be telling on themselves, come

1:07:37

to smirch. The

1:07:40

next big thing I wanted to touch on, and

1:07:42

I foreshadowed this a little, is

1:07:47

the demonization of disability

1:07:50

in horror movies. We've

1:07:52

talked to some extent in past episodes

1:07:55

about how mental illness is

1:07:57

demonized in horror movies. A lot. We've

1:07:59

talked how aging tends

1:08:02

to be demonized, especially as

1:08:04

women age. It's often

1:08:07

included as like right and the

1:08:09

and the vivich um An

1:08:11

Old women will be a part of the horror

1:08:14

imagery. What we haven't talked

1:08:16

about really yet is

1:08:19

how disability is

1:08:21

also demonized in horror movies.

1:08:24

Um Where because

1:08:26

in this movie, the cave

1:08:29

dwellers are blind. This

1:08:32

is a pretty I mean, you

1:08:35

see it in a few other horror movies.

1:08:37

The quiet Place comes to mind, and

1:08:39

you know, any any number of disabilities

1:08:42

will be used and ascribed

1:08:45

to the killer or the monster

1:08:48

or whatever it is that is causing

1:08:51

terror for the protagonist,

1:08:53

which just goes back to the I mean, part

1:08:56

of why so many horror movies

1:08:59

seem so horrifically

1:09:01

dated when you watch them back later is because

1:09:03

the villain is very often just what

1:09:06

is the example of the other that

1:09:09

the writer and the filmmaker is

1:09:12

threatened by, which is I feel

1:09:14

like there's a lot of racially

1:09:16

motivated villains that we've seen

1:09:19

in horror movies over the years because

1:09:21

that is what the white writers thinks

1:09:24

is going to be scary to people. That's where

1:09:26

vagina mouth comes from. That's

1:09:28

like there's there and and yeah,

1:09:31

I think, um mental illness

1:09:33

and disability in general kind

1:09:35

of goes into that general like you

1:09:37

know, it's the writers iming like, well, people aren't comfortable

1:09:40

with this, and I have no interest in normalizing it, so

1:09:42

let me basically weaponize people's

1:09:45

own prejudices and affirm them

1:09:47

through creating this monster.

1:09:50

Yeah. I have a few

1:09:53

quotes from a piece

1:09:55

I found on medium

1:09:58

by Laura Elliott. It's entitled

1:10:00

What's so Scary about Disability? Laura

1:10:03

discusses how there are

1:10:06

recurring tropes and horror movies that

1:10:08

basically say disability

1:10:10

equals evil and disfigurement

1:10:12

equals morally bankrupt, and

1:10:15

how a lot of these tropes

1:10:17

and horror films are are rooted in and

1:10:20

date back to a lot of old

1:10:22

literature, religious texts, folk

1:10:25

tales, fairy tales, things like that. She

1:10:28

says, quote. Perhaps you might

1:10:30

think that these stereotypes are no big

1:10:32

deal, but the fact is that the horror

1:10:35

genre is the only genre in

1:10:37

which disabled people are regularly

1:10:39

represented at all. In a

1:10:42

report by the Media Diversity and Social

1:10:44

Change Initiative found that of

1:10:46

the top one movies that year,

1:10:49

only two point four percent of

1:10:51

disabled characters spoke or had names,

1:10:54

despite the fact that one in five people

1:10:56

around the world are disabled. So

1:11:00

there's so little visibility and representation

1:11:03

of people with disabilities in movies,

1:11:06

and it's so rare that you see any

1:11:08

kind of respectful or

1:11:10

responsible representation because disability

1:11:13

is so often again ascribed

1:11:16

to the villains and horror movies,

1:11:18

and that's really the only visibility you

1:11:21

get. And then another quote

1:11:23

from this same article says,

1:11:26

quote, it's worth remembering that while horror

1:11:29

entertainment frequently depicts disabled people

1:11:31

negatively, there's essentially no other

1:11:33

popular media to counteract these

1:11:35

depictions. While there are countless

1:11:37

disabled and disfigured people

1:11:39

portrayed as killers and villains, we rarely

1:11:42

ever get to be the heroes, and

1:11:44

frequent negative representation breeds ongoing

1:11:47

stigma and prejudice. End quote.

1:11:49

So I mean, historically

1:11:52

and film, this has just been unequivocally

1:11:54

true in film. I mean, this movie came out

1:11:56

fifteen years ago, movies like a

1:11:59

Quiet Place about two years ago.

1:12:02

I've been lightly encouraged

1:12:04

in recent years of their being more

1:12:07

representation of disabled

1:12:09

people that are played by disabled

1:12:11

actors as well. And it isn't just

1:12:14

I mean, I think there's it's basically a trope

1:12:16

of of a very famous actor

1:12:19

playing a disabled character in order to get

1:12:21

an Oscar nomination like, that's a pretty

1:12:23

common trope. But um, I will say

1:12:25

in a quiet place, and I literally

1:12:27

I literally just watched it for the first time last week. But

1:12:30

um, the daughter in

1:12:33

that movie is deaf

1:12:35

preteen played by

1:12:37

a deaf actress, Milicent

1:12:40

Simmons, And that character, I

1:12:42

mean, is like one of the central characters.

1:12:44

Her disability isn't played

1:12:46

for evil or jokes,

1:12:49

and it ends up actually kind

1:12:51

of being something that she is able

1:12:53

to, you know, work to her

1:12:55

and her family's advantage in the story. So I am

1:12:59

gent other And this is an example

1:13:02

that is in let me be clear, not

1:13:04

a very good movie, but one

1:13:06

that I have seen before. Did

1:13:10

anyone watch Unfriended Dark Web?

1:13:12

Yes? I

1:13:15

did not see it, so

1:13:18

I've seen them both. I really

1:13:20

enjoyed the Unfriended franchise. It is so

1:13:22

silly. But um, in the second

1:13:24

Unfriended and it is the worst one Friended twist,

1:13:27

everyone's to hack her. But

1:13:30

but there is a lead character that

1:13:32

is deaf. She is a romantic

1:13:36

interest. She has a whole arc. The

1:13:38

part is played by a deaf actress, and her

1:13:41

disability isn't leveraged against

1:13:43

her. She is a character that exists in this story

1:13:47

and yeah, I mean we don't need to get into

1:13:49

it too much, like she and her boyfriend

1:13:51

are kind of like there's a communication issues,

1:13:54

but I thought it was dealt with pretty respectfully

1:13:57

and so even

1:13:59

in bad movies, you know, like

1:14:02

there, but but I don't, you know,

1:14:04

I don't think The Descent really qualifies

1:14:06

as a movie that is handling this

1:14:09

well at all. And yeah,

1:14:11

I think, well overall, I'd be interested

1:14:13

to hear from our listeners with disabilities

1:14:16

on how because I think this movie

1:14:19

isn't the absolute worst offender

1:14:22

of demonizing disability

1:14:24

in the horror genre. And yeah, I just

1:14:26

i'd be interested to hear our listeners perspectives

1:14:30

on that just kind

1:14:32

of in this movie. And then as a

1:14:34

whole um friend of the cast. Kristin

1:14:36

Lopez has done some really great

1:14:38

writing on this as well, and we'll we'll link

1:14:41

some of her articles. It's

1:14:44

definitely not a lot of solid ally

1:14:47

ship from the other woman with her

1:14:49

in this, and I think that's like, I mean

1:14:51

a big part of what we're seeing in like the BLM movement

1:14:54

is like how important ally

1:14:56

ship is because like disabled people in

1:14:59

this specific converse station can continue

1:15:01

to like advocate and fight for the rights,

1:15:03

But at the end of the day, it's like, how is everyone going to

1:15:05

show up? How are they going to help make space? How

1:15:08

are they going to help learn? And so

1:15:10

on? And I think that, yeah, this

1:15:12

movie, I think it's like a

1:15:15

d and not an F and effort

1:15:18

for ally ship. And I think Beth

1:15:20

is the only reason why the greed went up in

1:15:23

any sort. Um, even if she does

1:15:25

get you know, chatty Cathy at the end and wants

1:15:27

to get um. I

1:15:29

wanted to bring up this book that um. Actually

1:15:32

Alex Jacob's Got Me Once, House

1:15:35

of Psychotic Woman and Autobiographical

1:15:37

Topography of female neurosis

1:15:40

and horror and exploitation Films.

1:15:43

And it's a really dense

1:15:46

and a really interesting formatted book.

1:15:49

But I really like it because I've also thought

1:15:51

more not so much on the physical disability

1:15:53

side of it, but more of like the like mental disorder

1:15:56

side of things, Just like as I explored

1:15:59

my own anxiety and depression and mood

1:16:01

swings through my twenties and seeing

1:16:03

in movies and like my friends did that

1:16:05

to me, I would be so mad, why are they

1:16:08

treating? And then they cart you know, the protagonist

1:16:10

still stands with them at that and I'm like, oh, bit,

1:16:12

you should have my back when I'm having a panic attack.

1:16:15

Don't demonize me and like isolate

1:16:17

me in this um. But the book like dives

1:16:20

into yeah, different films, mostly

1:16:23

horror films, and you know, like

1:16:25

Rosemary's Baby is a great fucking

1:16:27

example of a time where we totally isolate

1:16:30

someone who's like experiencing all

1:16:32

these like you know, legitimate things

1:16:34

within her female body. But then also you know,

1:16:36

I as being possessed at the same time with the demon

1:16:39

baby. Um. But I think,

1:16:41

you know, I think movies like that, and like Ginger

1:16:44

Snaps is a great example too of like

1:16:46

talking about like teenage girls coming into

1:16:48

their own and everyone's like, oh, you're just having

1:16:50

your period. I mean they become awarewolf but

1:16:52

also you know, having that, and

1:16:54

so I think that I like when movies

1:16:57

do that, Like you were saying, Jamie

1:17:00

at the Quiet Place, how that ends up working

1:17:02

to the families benefit. Um,

1:17:04

we're actually like works with the story.

1:17:07

But you know, like Midsummer,

1:17:09

you know, I know that guy tries to fucking talk

1:17:12

about mental health stuff,

1:17:14

but like god, he sucks at it, and

1:17:18

I it's just it's

1:17:20

for me. It's like it's a lot of

1:17:22

like what I've experienced, you know, I think

1:17:24

what I I paid a lot of attention

1:17:27

to good intention shitty impact

1:17:29

a lot lately, and that guy is the

1:17:31

epitome of yeah, good intention,

1:17:34

he wants to bring awareness to this, but

1:17:36

then like, horrible fucking impact.

1:17:39

So I think that when people want to write about disabilities,

1:17:42

I'm glad you brought that up. I think people need to think

1:17:44

about like, hey, do you are you really the

1:17:46

person to speak about this, like is this your

1:17:48

place? Are you really gonna, you know, not

1:17:51

further villainize this and further isolate

1:17:54

this from the conversation of inclusivity

1:17:56

and allyship and like be

1:17:59

yeah, are you just gonna bring you

1:18:01

know, the awareness to it that needs rather than

1:18:03

just using it as like a tool, because

1:18:05

it's exhausting watching it as

1:18:07

a tool. I hate being seeing people

1:18:10

like who are like me or people who have you know, physical

1:18:13

disabilities, and they're just being villainized

1:18:15

for that. So yeah, I don't

1:18:17

think we see in nearly enough of you and just intersectionality

1:18:20

in general, Like we'll see you

1:18:22

know, white people and a disability,

1:18:25

We'll see you know, black

1:18:28

people and poverty, and

1:18:30

then we'll start to see more and more layers. But

1:18:32

I feel like the more layered intersectional films

1:18:34

come more with like the indie films, they get the lower

1:18:36

budgets and like the lower marketing and distribution

1:18:39

ceilings. So I'm like, I would

1:18:41

be so curious to see these films,

1:18:44

you know, as we like, you know, layer up these

1:18:46

identities and these oppressions

1:18:49

and privileges, but like with the

1:18:51

bigger budgets, and I think people

1:18:54

you know, can explore that a lot

1:18:56

more with the bigger budgets that they get. This

1:18:59

guy kind of had an opportunity, any uh.

1:19:02

He caved in wish

1:19:06

and the and the and that also will come

1:19:08

with allowing black,

1:19:11

indigenous people of color to make their

1:19:13

own movies, people with disabilities

1:19:15

to make movies about themselves, queer

1:19:18

people to make movies about themselves. Yeah,

1:19:21

God please. And since we're talking about

1:19:23

horror this month, I

1:19:25

mean, it's it's a genre that is so open,

1:19:28

two different characters and

1:19:30

and and so it's kind

1:19:33

of I mean, it's frustrating to look back, and this

1:19:35

is fifteen years ago, but it's

1:19:37

frustrating to see a genre that's

1:19:39

uniquely qualified use

1:19:42

its power for bad basically by

1:19:45

by demonizing people instead of you

1:19:48

know, representing them and lifting them up. And yeah,

1:19:51

yeah, you get a lot of freedom with horror movies.

1:19:53

I mean I feel like the marketing

1:19:55

for it. I feel like a lot of people

1:19:58

will make horror movies unless it's going to be like a

1:20:00

quiet place or something like generally

1:20:02

they're like, we know, we're gonna like stay within

1:20:05

this pool of money and demographic

1:20:07

and audience and YadA YadA. Yeah.

1:20:10

I love horror movies because you get to explore

1:20:12

these types of topics. I think,

1:20:15

for me, Midsummer and Hereditary,

1:20:17

which I so uh

1:20:20

you know words. Um, I'm

1:20:23

just like they were so disappointing

1:20:25

at the end of the day because I'm like, you had

1:20:27

such a fucking opportunity.

1:20:30

You had such an opportunity and

1:20:32

yeah blew. And people won't stop congratulating

1:20:35

you regardless, Like yeah,

1:20:37

like, yeah, Tony Collett was fantastic, but Tony

1:20:39

Collett is always fantastic as an angel,

1:20:42

Like what do you expect. I don't expect anything less

1:20:44

from her. Yeah, I hate ari

1:20:46

esther and I don't like his movies,

1:20:49

and but people

1:20:51

just can't stop requesting them for

1:20:54

us to do. They will be fun to cover when

1:20:56

the day comes. But like, but I'm not

1:20:58

in a rush I

1:21:00

do I'm maybe

1:21:02

I'm inventing this. I'm pretty sure that this

1:21:05

is something that he said where

1:21:07

he's like, I'm not going to direct a movie for a while. I'm

1:21:09

just going to fund other people's projects. And it's like,

1:21:11

yes, do that, um, and

1:21:14

don't and you I better not see

1:21:16

you funding the project of siss hat

1:21:18

white guys. Oh god.

1:21:22

Also, okay, the irony

1:21:24

of most horror

1:21:27

movies being made

1:21:29

by and being about cissht

1:21:31

white people and marginalized

1:21:34

people being the people who actually

1:21:36

experience most of the horrors in

1:21:38

their lives. And and

1:21:42

like horror movies are usually

1:21:45

allegorical, right, the monster is

1:21:47

never really a monster. The monsters in allegory

1:21:50

for something. But I feel like even so, like

1:21:52

there aren't that many allegorical films

1:21:56

about like racism or

1:21:59

queer phobia or classism

1:22:01

or anything like that, at least not ones that are are

1:22:04

in the mains like us in

1:22:07

the whatever that what is considered

1:22:09

to be the horrican. And because I'm sure, I

1:22:11

mean, we know that these movies exist and that we're

1:22:13

they're out there, it's just they're not brought

1:22:16

to the forefront of the way that they should

1:22:18

be. Yeah, I'm in a weekly quarantined

1:22:21

movie club with some with a friend

1:22:24

and then he has a bunch of other friends and so we meet

1:22:26

every Sunday at five on zoom.

1:22:28

We watch a movie every week, and

1:22:31

I've really enjoyed it because it's like the first

1:22:34

you know, Caitlin, I met you in a very white

1:22:36

world and uh, and

1:22:39

I felt like talking movies as much as I love

1:22:41

those sweet Gems, it was always like I felt

1:22:43

like I was always coming with this yeah, kind of intersectional

1:22:46

angle that you know, if you or Catherine

1:22:48

weren't there for the night, then I was like, dude,

1:22:50

I'm like out here like drowning, just trying

1:22:53

to talk about I'm just trying to talk about the

1:22:55

movie. Right. It's like I think all women can relate

1:22:57

to, Like people want to ask us, like, how is

1:22:59

it being a female comic, How is

1:23:01

it being a female writer. It's like, I

1:23:03

just want to talk about being a writer. I just want

1:23:05

to talk about being a filmmaker. And so I feel like when I talk

1:23:08

about movies, there's so much more of the layer

1:23:10

of like having to talk through like

1:23:12

the issues of it or like the lack of intersectionality

1:23:15

in it. Um. But in this group, we're talking

1:23:18

about movies YadA YadA, and we

1:23:21

I feel bad because I actually missed it so I haven't

1:23:23

watched yet. But we watched Tales from

1:23:25

the Hood, which I had yet to see. Yeah,

1:23:27

I haven't seen it either. Yeah, and we're trying to watch

1:23:29

like sometimes we dive deep into like yeah

1:23:32

this this white head like movies whatever.

1:23:34

But they were also trying to you know, we watch like The Watermelon

1:23:37

Woman, which was like the first out black

1:23:39

lesbian made film. UM.

1:23:42

But yeah, we're like trying to explore movie more

1:23:45

movies like that, and I, you know, it goes back

1:23:47

to like how I see it

1:23:49

as though, you know, like Jamie were

1:23:51

just saying, you know, it's like, yeah, how many movies

1:23:53

don't really get out there? And it's like, well, it's

1:23:56

like anyone who's marginalized, Like we

1:23:58

might not get the meeting, but if we get the meeting,

1:24:00

how much do we get to pitch in the meeting once we're

1:24:03

in the room, once we like get the movie greenlit,

1:24:05

Like how soon do we get to do the movie

1:24:07

once we get the movie? Like, you know, we're

1:24:09

kicking into production. Is it going to happen

1:24:11

on our timeline? Are we going to get the budget we want? Are

1:24:14

we going to get to hire the people we wanted, how much

1:24:16

to produce? YadA, YadA, YadA. The ceiling

1:24:18

is always there, and I think

1:24:20

that, you know, a quiet place. My

1:24:23

biggest issue with it is like, why why

1:24:26

this movie? Now? I love John Krasinski,

1:24:29

fine, Emily Blunt, whatever, but like why

1:24:32

did we need this movie? And I

1:24:35

think get Out to me at that get Out in

1:24:37

to us, We're going to be these like perfect

1:24:39

like gateway to like black films.

1:24:42

And then I've heard from friends who

1:24:45

you know, are like pitching movies out there, like, oh, we

1:24:47

already have get Out, you

1:24:49

know. They're like they're like when we already have like the

1:24:51

Black Horrors. And

1:24:54

I'm like, are you serious? Like what

1:24:56

are all of the movies that we call classics,

1:24:59

Godfather's, Goodfellas, Casino,

1:25:01

Like, it's all the same ship over and over. We're

1:25:03

still letting Scorsese, you know. So

1:25:05

I'm like, why why do we get

1:25:08

the ceiling? Why do black filmmakers

1:25:10

get the ceiling? You know, I

1:25:13

could go deep, that could be a whole other episode one,

1:25:16

but I think that that is something we

1:25:18

said, we think that there's not as many out there.

1:25:20

It's like, you know, people are like there's no female

1:25:22

filmmakers or like excuse you, hello,

1:25:26

No, that's why that's like the most frustrating

1:25:28

fucking thing in the world to hear that. Just it's

1:25:30

like, unfortunately, so unsurprising

1:25:33

of how it's just assumed that people

1:25:35

want to see the same his

1:25:37

head, male white stories told over

1:25:39

and over and over, and that's why they're made over and over and

1:25:41

over and why the bar is so low.

1:25:44

This is um, I was Caitlin,

1:25:46

I feel like maybe I was talking about this

1:25:49

with you not too long ago. But there is

1:25:51

a moment that Emily Yoshida, friend

1:25:53

of the cast, pulled out of other

1:25:56

friend of the cast, Karina longworths, we

1:25:59

have so many friends have I mean, listen, our

1:26:01

our show has been on for five years,

1:26:03

um, but it's

1:26:06

true for for as long

1:26:09

as the cave people

1:26:11

have been developing their wall

1:26:13

climbing abilities. In any case, um

1:26:16

Emily pointed out this part of Karina's

1:26:19

most recent podcast season and

1:26:21

you must remember this where she mentions that

1:26:24

Wes Anderson, when he was developing

1:26:26

Bottle Rocket his first movie, the way

1:26:28

he got that movie produced was that he wrote a

1:26:31

nonsensical sixty

1:26:33

page treatment treatment, didn't even format

1:26:35

it like a script, didn't know how to format it like it's

1:26:38

a script. And then instead

1:26:40

of someone saying, uh, this is not

1:26:42

a script, go learn how to do this, they

1:26:45

said, we love it. You seem to have a lot of

1:26:47

potential. We're gonna buy it. We're gonna teach you how to write

1:26:49

a script. And then they like

1:26:51

taught him on the ground, because that is

1:26:54

I mean privilege firing on so many

1:26:56

levels of like yeah,

1:26:58

I don't know, and and just how you're eating That example

1:27:01

is and to so many filmmakers

1:27:03

that have no I mean truly no choice but

1:27:06

to come knowing their ship and are

1:27:08

still turned away when Wes Anderson is

1:27:10

like what is what is the script?

1:27:12

How do I do that? And they're like

1:27:14

you're hired? Like it's just such

1:27:18

I mean going back to kind of the horror

1:27:21

conversation, like so

1:27:23

many horror movies are about

1:27:25

like zombies and vampires and

1:27:27

werewolves and any number of

1:27:30

other creatures that are not real because

1:27:32

like the cistert white men who are

1:27:35

making these movies have to invent things

1:27:37

to scare them, whereas again, marginalized

1:27:40

people live every day in

1:27:42

fear because they're so often the

1:27:45

victims of discrimination and

1:27:47

oppression and violence or

1:27:49

worse, they're they're taking marginalized,

1:27:52

oppressed people and turning them into into

1:27:54

the villains. So like, yeah,

1:28:01

yeah, does anyone

1:28:03

have any other thoughts about

1:28:05

The Descent specifically or

1:28:10

yeah, um,

1:28:13

I think it needed some more

1:28:16

black people. Yeah, and by some

1:28:18

more yeah, I

1:28:20

think they could use some more black

1:28:23

people. That's my real

1:28:25

of my final thought hard degree

1:28:27

the Descent because because

1:28:30

you know, there are some great there are some great

1:28:32

black actors, you know, one or two out there

1:28:34

that you know might have been around, they

1:28:39

didn't come around still twenty Um.

1:28:43

Yeah, I think that was like something that was sitting

1:28:45

with me. But also, honestly, I'm fucking

1:28:47

used to it. I'm so used to like some

1:28:50

of some of my favorite movies

1:28:52

are not black lead and created

1:28:55

films. But then also it's

1:28:57

like, you know, the ways in which I

1:28:59

allow that to just be okay,

1:29:02

And I've tried to boycott, like watching

1:29:04

white movies. It's fucking hard,

1:29:06

dude. It's like it's super

1:29:09

hard because our ceiling is just

1:29:11

so so low and

1:29:13

even if there was a black actor on that. They

1:29:16

probably would be coming out with a story now

1:29:18

about how you know, other they

1:29:20

felt, and there was it was an entire white male

1:29:22

cast, you know, on this and that, which

1:29:25

I'm really carrious how many women were involved, and

1:29:27

that we're not in the hair, makeup or producing

1:29:29

department, because that's typically where we are

1:29:32

on set or often where

1:29:34

we're hired the most and people want

1:29:36

us. You're organized, so you're so together, like

1:29:39

let me be dirty and be a grip, come on now,

1:29:41

you know, but I want to be the best

1:29:44

boy. Yeah, yeah, I didn't see any

1:29:47

I didn't see any women in

1:29:49

at least high up behind the scenes

1:29:51

roles in the Yeah,

1:29:54

I definitely want to watch it with the

1:29:56

commentary because when I was reading

1:29:58

all the trivia was like five minutes

1:30:01

into the trip or commentary and then they would

1:30:03

say certain things. So I'm really

1:30:05

curious about I

1:30:08

want to hear their tone because I feel like you can

1:30:10

always like I can start to you

1:30:12

know, sherylack Holmes my way through tones

1:30:15

and commentary or like wow, they really

1:30:17

hated the process, Like Naomi Watts talking

1:30:20

about um maholland dry

1:30:23

and her audition is just so sleazy

1:30:25

and disgusting. Like David

1:30:27

Lynch like told her she came in and then

1:30:30

she had no makeup on because she wanted to seem

1:30:32

natural. I think she was new to l a very similar

1:30:34

to the character she hands up portray, and

1:30:36

he said, come back with makeup, and

1:30:40

so she's like and when she talks about

1:30:42

it, she sounds sort of brain rush

1:30:44

like, so, you know, I left and I put on

1:30:46

makeup and I came back and he was like, oh, this is

1:30:48

better now, you know, And I was like yeah,

1:30:52

and I was like, man, but it's those things

1:30:54

that we allowed to not be, you

1:30:56

know, the canceling factor or something

1:30:59

that we think not worthy of bringing up about

1:31:01

someone. And so we I mean we you

1:31:03

would all just have to unlearned

1:31:06

the like really harmful

1:31:09

things that we learned

1:31:12

living in this like patriarchal

1:31:14

structure. It's like, I'm so

1:31:17

curious if if The Descent

1:31:20

had a bigger turnout

1:31:23

and was more like I think it's

1:31:25

like a like, I think it's got a good following,

1:31:27

but I think I've had a more mainstream following that

1:31:29

it seemed like they were kind of hoping for. I'm

1:31:32

curious if some of those actresses

1:31:34

would be coming out now and saying like, you know, we

1:31:37

could have done more, we should have made it more diverse,

1:31:39

because it's when I'm watching a lot of like high

1:31:41

supposedly high up like white women do,

1:31:44

They're like, I should have done more. I'm like, yeah,

1:31:46

but you should have done more. Why were you just sitting

1:31:48

there because your privilege wasn't being tested?

1:31:50

Where were you fifteen years ago? Exactly?

1:31:53

So I think it's like, you know, I think

1:31:55

low key this movie did speak to like the white

1:31:57

supremacy that like definitely

1:32:00

boils within that. And

1:32:02

I'm like, you know, obviously this was a good movie to

1:32:04

take a chance with an all female cast. You

1:32:07

had to throw a sister and there is something so absolutely

1:32:10

I don't know, I mean. And it was a commercial success.

1:32:12

It had like a three point

1:32:14

five British pound

1:32:17

budget and made yeah,

1:32:20

I don't know, but um but and then in in

1:32:23

US dollars it made somewhere around

1:32:26

I think fifty five to sixty

1:32:28

million at the box office, So it was

1:32:32

a box office success. And honestly,

1:32:34

this is one of our most requested

1:32:37

horror films to cover on the podcast. We've

1:32:39

been getting this request for long time.

1:32:42

You're welcome, everybody, You're

1:32:45

happy. It's a solid film

1:32:47

man for what it was when it was.

1:32:50

You know, I think if they made that movie

1:32:52

now, like even the movies I see coming

1:32:54

out now, I'm like, are you fucking serious?

1:32:57

What year is this? Why is

1:32:59

this movie half inning right now? But

1:33:02

I think for two thousand five,

1:33:04

for them to do a bunch of women

1:33:06

diving into caves with the budget that it

1:33:09

was, like, I think, what, like, there's

1:33:11

not many other films like that, Like I

1:33:13

think, you know, like Twenty Days Later,

1:33:16

Oh my god, Nami Harris, I don't know. There's

1:33:18

so many Naomi actresses. I get them all mixed.

1:33:20

Um Nami Harris, like I think

1:33:23

she to me when I saw Twenty Days Later,

1:33:25

I was like, skirts, excuse me, this black

1:33:27

woman with this like kind of short pixie

1:33:30

flat ironed haircut is just like kicking

1:33:33

ass and saving this like sad little white

1:33:35

boy. Okay, I am here for

1:33:37

this. But I feel like we only get

1:33:40

those every so often, and then we got you

1:33:42

know, not get Up. I didn't

1:33:44

like US. I thought US was horsha, to be honest, But

1:33:46

I love Lupita. That Lupita like blew

1:33:49

me the funk away. So it

1:33:51

sucks as a black mixed person.

1:33:53

Like every so often I get someone I'm like yeah,

1:33:56

but then most of the time you're like, no, there's

1:33:59

not really anyone. Oh she is anxiety,

1:34:01

I have anxiety. Well I guess there's

1:34:03

that, you know. Yeah,

1:34:06

yes, Um, Well

1:34:09

does this movie pass the Bechtel

1:34:12

tests? Oh? It sure does, almost

1:34:14

constantly, almost exclusively. Yeah.

1:34:17

And it's interesting because I didn't

1:34:19

like check this to the to the

1:34:22

hilt, let's say, But I

1:34:25

feel like even when they are maybe

1:34:27

the subtext is about her

1:34:29

husband, they don't really

1:34:32

say his name, and they don't

1:34:34

really mention him. It's all kind of like subtext,

1:34:37

and it's more they're talking

1:34:40

about grief than they're talking about him,

1:34:43

except for like that one line where I'm

1:34:46

like, Juno, what are you doing where when

1:34:48

she says she's not the only

1:34:50

one who lost someone in that accident, I'm

1:34:52

like, why are you telling him

1:34:54

yourself like this? You're like what? Um?

1:34:57

But outside of that, yeah, they men aren't

1:34:59

really mentioned at all.

1:35:02

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's true. Actually, And

1:35:04

now I think about like every time a man was mentioned,

1:35:07

You're like, oh a man, Oh I forgot about them?

1:35:09

For a second, you know, like yeah, because

1:35:11

Sarah asks a couple of them like, so, do you have

1:35:13

a man back home? And then yeah, we

1:35:15

do talk more about the grief of the

1:35:18

husband and the daughter rather than him.

1:35:21

That's fine by me. It was a nice little break.

1:35:24

Yeah, there were way too many questions, like they

1:35:26

almost like went around the circle do you have a boyfriend

1:35:28

or husband? Yeah? That was ridiculous, which

1:35:31

was like too much, But at least they

1:35:33

also talked about like, yeah, I

1:35:35

like spelunking, I'm in medical

1:35:38

school, and here are some of my interests.

1:35:40

But it did sort of feel like, Okay,

1:35:43

what do women talk about when they're not

1:35:46

being killed by or

1:35:49

and also when they are being killed

1:35:51

by all the men and

1:35:53

the movie are killed. Yeah,

1:35:56

and that's fine. The sequel

1:36:00

also kills a lot because

1:36:02

there are it is a cast of

1:36:04

men and women, and um, all the

1:36:06

men are also killed spoiler

1:36:09

allergy. I'm curious to

1:36:11

see that one. Now. I got a damn it. It

1:36:15

sounds pretty good. It's it's not well,

1:36:18

it's it's the first one is

1:36:20

a better crafted and like better structured

1:36:23

movie, and I think a more effective horror movie.

1:36:25

H The second one, I think course

1:36:28

correct some of the issues and

1:36:31

has another woman

1:36:33

of color as one of the lead characters,

1:36:35

who, Um, and I won't spoil

1:36:38

this, but you know you're not unhappy about what happens

1:36:40

really with her. So it's

1:36:43

a little better is her storyline,

1:36:46

Like she walks up to the cave and it's like, oh, hell,

1:36:48

I'm not going in there. I'm out. I

1:36:51

wish but it's like, I'm

1:36:53

going to break the stereotype. No black person

1:36:55

is saying this. She black kind of latin

1:36:58

X. Okay, okay, great, I'm

1:37:01

gonna watch it. Yeah, but really

1:37:03

looks like horseship, but I guess I'll watch it. So

1:37:06

as far as our nipple scale, UM,

1:37:08

examining the movie from an intersectional

1:37:11

feminist lens zero to five nipples.

1:37:14

Um, Again, there's a lot to appreciate

1:37:17

about this movie, and there's there's there's a lot

1:37:19

to be upset by about this movie. Um.

1:37:22

It almost feels very equal. I'm

1:37:25

almost inclined to give it like a two point

1:37:27

five, like a split down the middle because you

1:37:30

see very capable, physically

1:37:33

strong, outdoorsy athletic

1:37:36

women who you almost never

1:37:38

see. Um, they aren't sexualized.

1:37:42

It's just a group of friends doing

1:37:44

extreme sports until

1:37:47

the cannibals, until the cave

1:37:49

dollars come, and then you have, I

1:37:52

mean, the only woman of color gets vilified,

1:37:56

the pettiness, the petty

1:37:59

behavior of some of the women.

1:38:01

At the end, it all sort of cancels out.

1:38:03

So yeah, I guess I would give it like a two

1:38:06

point five. It is very much

1:38:08

a movie of its time.

1:38:11

And this is a rating of of the film

1:38:14

through an intersectional lens, not as

1:38:16

a film as a well, I want to say

1:38:18

is a cinematic piece, but I think we should start

1:38:21

evaluating films through an intersection.

1:38:23

So our our yeah, our rating is based

1:38:25

on like the lens. The

1:38:27

only reason I'm I'm torn in this is

1:38:30

because I feel like I typically rate films

1:38:33

through this lens, but now there's other

1:38:35

people doing it, and I'm like, am I in the real world

1:38:37

right now? You guys do this too, and this is way

1:38:39

better? Okay, Because

1:38:42

people will be like, oh, no, I just thought it was a

1:38:44

good movie. I'm like, oh, were you not uncomfortable

1:38:46

by it? Like I was, Oh, that's so nice for you, and you're

1:38:48

cute little privilege go over there. Yeah,

1:38:52

I think I would give it. I think

1:38:54

I would give it three nipples out

1:38:56

of five. Yeah, I'll split the deaf. I'll

1:38:58

do two point seven.

1:39:03

Very I love to get the decimal zone

1:39:06

here. Um No, Yeah,

1:39:08

I think that, like, given the

1:39:10

fact that it was fifteen years ago and it is

1:39:13

there is a lot that this movie is

1:39:15

doing in this genre that no one was doing in

1:39:17

this genre unfortunate.

1:39:20

As as infuriating as I find it, I

1:39:22

do feel like there is I

1:39:24

don't know how to properly phrase this, but like there is

1:39:26

kind of a like a

1:39:28

tendency maybe in movies of like

1:39:32

once a male director proves,

1:39:34

oh there can be a you know, a horror

1:39:36

movie starring all women, then it

1:39:39

unfortunately kind of does get the ball rolling

1:39:41

to maybe let a woman direct

1:39:44

a horror movie about women. But cause

1:39:47

I feel like there's a lot of moving

1:39:49

in the right direction in some ways

1:39:51

and then in other ways than complete

1:39:53

like stagnation. But there is

1:39:55

a lot happening here that isn't happening really

1:39:58

anywhere else in this space at that time. So I'll

1:40:00

give it a stew there. And it's

1:40:02

really cool to see Sarah

1:40:05

come out of the the period

1:40:07

pond and get all stuff.

1:40:10

I don't care what anyone says, it is it

1:40:12

is a men being afraid of Vagina's thing

1:40:15

again just also very says normative get

1:40:17

a life like anyways? Um

1:40:20

yeah, two point two point seven five. I'll

1:40:22

give one to Sarah. I'm

1:40:24

gonna give one to I

1:40:27

give I'll give one to Juno because I said,

1:40:30

I don't know why. I was like, you know, Juno

1:40:32

made mistakes, But who among

1:40:35

us hasn't Who hasn't who among us their

1:40:37

friends to certain death on

1:40:40

purpose? And I'll give the

1:40:42

last three quarters to Beth

1:40:45

because I did think if it was funny that she was gossiping

1:40:47

when she's dying. You know. Oh

1:40:52

well, Darby, thank you so

1:40:54

much for being here, remember having

1:40:57

me. What a treat that we are,

1:40:59

just the fact that we all descended

1:41:02

into this conversation together and

1:41:04

now we're crawling our crawling

1:41:07

over the bones of people to get out.

1:41:09

Yes, um, where

1:41:12

can people check out your stuff? Following

1:41:15

nine, et cetera. Yeah, so um.

1:41:17

I'm pretty active on Instagram at

1:41:20

Darblazy, des and Delta asan

1:41:22

alpha RBS and boy l easy

1:41:25

y Um. I've been doing a lot of customer

1:41:27

service calls lately. Have to spell my name out

1:41:29

in letters like that? Um,

1:41:32

what else? Do you do in quarantine but fixed problems

1:41:34

you don't really have? UM, And yeah,

1:41:37

I'm a filmmaker, artist consultant.

1:41:40

I consult folks and film. I used

1:41:43

to run a collective cult Color

1:41:45

Film, where we provided resources

1:41:47

and tools and education for the

1:41:49

community of marginalized filmmakers.

1:41:52

And now I'm doing it on my own. So if you

1:41:54

need a consultation to get through a work situation.

1:41:57

UM, I do monthly live streams. And I have

1:41:59

a patriot on patreon dot com

1:42:01

slash Derby rose d

1:42:04

a r b asy rose

1:42:07

Um. And yeah, I do monthly live streams. I talk

1:42:09

about intersectionality at work, how

1:42:11

to be productive during this

1:42:14

time that we're in, and um,

1:42:16

all the other things. And I do want to recommend

1:42:19

a couple of movies anything

1:42:22

by Karen Kassama, Jennifer's

1:42:24

Body, The Invitation, other horror

1:42:26

thriller films, Ginger

1:42:29

Snaps, Um although co

1:42:31

written by a woman, fully directed by a man,

1:42:33

fantastic More Lady Bits

1:42:36

and uh comparisons all that in

1:42:38

horror. Our friend Alex

1:42:41

recommends that we covered that movie

1:42:43

on this podcast almost on a daily Baby.

1:42:48

It's a fantastic film, and

1:42:50

I feel like I'm forgetting others.

1:42:53

But there's a lot of incredible films

1:42:56

out there by marginalized filmmakers.

1:42:58

So support the horror, support

1:43:01

anything that we and they need,

1:43:04

because why America

1:43:06

don't care? So yes,

1:43:08

and and uh, listeners hired

1:43:11

Derby for her consultation work,

1:43:13

and subscribe to her Patreon

1:43:16

and give me money. We had a capitalist

1:43:18

society still and and covid

1:43:21

took my work away. Yes, thanks

1:43:24

for having me. This was really fun. I feel

1:43:26

like I've been waiting to have this conversation. And

1:43:28

I'm a big fan of what you guys have been doing with Bechdel

1:43:30

Castle. I'm so happy to see it, like

1:43:33

still where it is and where it's going. It's so

1:43:35

cool. Onward and upward baby, Yes,

1:43:38

I love it. Yea, thank you for being here

1:43:41

here everyone, it's a future Damian

1:43:43

future. It

1:43:46

is us. We wanted to address

1:43:48

something that we talked about during the episode

1:43:52

and that we got feedback on from

1:43:54

a few different listeners regarding

1:43:57

our discussion that we had about the representation

1:44:00

of disability in horror

1:44:02

movies. And yeah, we we basically

1:44:05

at the feedback that while that's an important

1:44:07

discussion to have, this was not the appropriate

1:44:10

movie to do it for, and so we

1:44:12

just wanted to acknowledge that we have spoken

1:44:14

with listeners and we just we want

1:44:17

to continue having this discussion, but this wasn't

1:44:19

the movie to do it for. And um,

1:44:21

so we apologize, and you

1:44:23

know, as always, our lines of communication

1:44:26

are open to you, and um,

1:44:29

yeah, we will continue to have this discussion

1:44:32

in movies that makes more sense for us. So our

1:44:34

apologies for um, misfiring

1:44:37

on when to have that discussion. Yeah,

1:44:39

it was pointed out that because

1:44:42

many like species of animals

1:44:44

who dwell in caves are blind, it

1:44:46

wasn't as though this movie was necessarily demonizing

1:44:49

blindness. For me, I was just

1:44:51

like, oh, this would be maybe a good opportunity

1:44:54

to kick start that conversation. But as

1:44:56

people pointed out, this wasn't

1:44:59

the right movie for it. It just wasn't the right

1:45:01

match right. But it's still

1:45:03

a very important discussion for sure. So

1:45:06

yes, thanks for those of you who gave

1:45:09

feedback. Like Jamie said, we encourage

1:45:12

that. You know, sometimes we're you

1:45:14

know, we're not always going to get things exactly

1:45:16

right every time, so it's it's

1:45:18