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1:57

a joint intelligence researcher. of

2:00

course we also have many

2:02

MI5 agents who sit directly on

2:04

the list of the officers After

2:07

retiring he co-authored a book under

2:10

the pseudonym Martin Ingram A state-like

2:13

taking an ex parte of the

2:15

junction that begins me and finds

2:17

you possibly underneath as your secretary

2:20

In it he exposed Freddy

2:22

Scappatecci as the army agent's

2:25

steak knife And when the book was being

2:27

developed, Mr Scappatecci

2:29

issued a number

2:31

of academics Specifically

2:33

requesting that the state

2:36

prosecute me for a

2:38

breach of confidence Some

2:40

question aspects of Mr Hirst's

2:42

account The extent

2:44

of his role and his motivations But

2:47

in this episode of the Veld Health he gives his

2:49

version of events The

2:51

argument which was being performed

2:53

in political circles was that

2:56

the unit was wrong And

2:58

there was nothing further from the truth Why

3:01

he maintains former IRA leader Martin

3:03

McGinnis was compromised I am absolutely

3:05

100% convinced that Mr McGinnis was

3:08

an agent of the blue color And

3:11

why he exposed Freddy

3:13

Scappatecci I made it

3:15

very clear to Mr Scappatecci I

3:18

would indeed follow my sword, but

3:20

that would only be so if

3:23

he was not the agent's steak

3:33

Ian Hirst, many people

3:35

will know you as the

3:37

man who outed Freddy Scappatecci

3:40

A steak knife But

3:43

for the benefit of our

3:45

other listeners Who

3:47

are you? Ok, so

3:49

I was a former handler

3:52

within the fruit for absolute clarity I

3:55

never met Mr Scappatecci, but

3:57

I was aware of his presence and

4:00

I was aware of his role and

4:03

ultimately throughout my

4:06

through career Mr Scavittice was

4:08

one of the key

4:11

agents which was run by the friend

4:13

which obviously we saw his product, I

4:15

saw his product, I

4:17

never once saw any contact

4:19

forms, they're

4:21

the documents which is organic

4:24

and to each agent

4:26

and they record everything about

4:29

the debrief including

4:31

the audio recordings of

4:33

those meetings so essentially

4:36

I was in

4:38

an office prior to

4:41

me joining the through when I was in the

4:43

12 intelligence company and we used

4:45

to handle out of hours the telephone

4:47

calls both for for

4:49

box for five months but also for the

4:52

rabbit the rattle which was down below us

4:55

and one evening I was doing some

4:58

late night work and we got

5:00

a call through and essentially

5:02

it was Mr Scavittice

5:04

making or requesting his

5:06

phone call in

5:09

regards to his situation

5:11

which he developed with a drink discharge

5:14

and the police officer made it clear

5:16

who it was that was seeking to

5:18

make this call and clearly it comes

5:21

through on the telephone number which we

5:23

knew who it related

5:25

to and that was the start

5:27

of knowing who that

5:30

agent was. Can I ask

5:32

just for the benefit of the listeners

5:34

because people may not be

5:36

as aware of these things as we are

5:39

but what was the through? The

5:43

through is an agent handling so co-op

5:45

human sources you meant human

5:48

intelligence so our job was to

5:50

recruit direct control

5:52

and exploit human intelligence.

5:58

Ian you mentioned Scavittice, Scappatici

6:00

straight away now. I mean,

6:02

anyone who listens to this podcast

6:04

and almost everyone here will

6:06

know who Freddy Scappatici was. He's now

6:08

dead. He was a

6:11

very senior member of the

6:13

IRS internal security squad known

6:15

in the vernacular as the

6:17

Nothing Squad. And he turned out

6:19

to be an agent. You

6:22

exposed Scappatici. Can I

6:24

ask why? So essentially

6:27

the process started in

6:29

late 1999 when I

6:31

took exception to a piece

6:34

that John Ware wrote in the telegraph.

6:38

And it dealt with disparagingly

6:40

a through as a rogue

6:42

unit. And

6:44

it was dealing ostensibly with

6:46

loyalism because clearly we

6:49

run agents within loyalism as well

6:51

as within the Republican movement. And

6:55

the argument being that the unit

6:57

was rogue. And there was

7:00

nothing further from the truth. And I believe

7:02

that I could prove that that wasn't the

7:04

case. And eventually

7:06

we did prove that because Liam

7:08

Clark, God rest his soul, did

7:10

quite a few pieces right at

7:12

the start. Mr Scappatici

7:14

never factored in those early exchanges.

7:18

It was to do with

7:21

identifying other interesting

7:23

matters. The first

7:25

being was Mr Adams. But

7:28

when we look at actually the

7:30

reason why and how we demolished

7:32

the rogue unit argument was

7:35

that I spoke to C.U.

7:37

Ward and we

7:40

had multiple meetings where

7:42

I explained to him that a

7:44

classified document when it's originated is

7:46

accompanied by a Mod Form 24.

7:48

Which is a classified receipt.

7:52

And their eyes lit up when they

7:54

realized the, when I explained to them

7:56

each document has a distribution

7:58

list. for argument's sake, it

8:00

has 20 people on that distribution

8:03

list, and they go to all

8:05

different agencies. But every

8:07

one of those documents is a

8:09

classified document, secret document, and it's

8:11

accompanied by an individual receipt. So

8:14

when it goes to the head of

8:16

special branch, his clerk has to sign

8:18

for that document. And that

8:20

receipt is then returned to the originating

8:23

unit, and it is entered into

8:25

what's called a Mod Form 102. It's

8:27

for ANA Act, but it's a really important

8:30

way of ensuring that

8:32

classified documents are secure. And

8:35

essentially, if there is a compromise, well, that

8:37

compromise has taken place. Well, the

8:39

police absolutely had no idea about this.

8:42

And I think you'll find in

8:44

the Sunday Times, in the early

8:46

2000s, there was three photographs of

8:48

crates which were recovered with

8:51

the Mod Form 24s, which allowed

8:53

Stevens III to identify that the

8:55

police had been in the seat

8:58

of the intelligence, which they denied

9:00

having access to. And

9:02

at this stage, I must remind

9:04

both you and your listeners that

9:06

the police have primacy. We

9:09

essentially work for the head

9:11

of special branch. Every

9:13

document which is produced, including

9:15

the contact forms, is

9:18

distributed to the head of special branch.

9:21

Within the through office is both

9:24

a joint intelligence research officer,

9:26

plus we also have a

9:29

MI5 agent who sits directly

9:31

opposite the ops officer. So

9:33

they're in complete knowledge

9:36

of each and every document which

9:38

is generated throughout the offices

9:40

of the through, which are throughout

9:43

the six counties. Ian,

9:46

you co-authored a book and

9:50

give a lot of details about intelligence

9:52

operations. I mean, for me,

9:54

I would have assumed

9:56

that all of these things have to be

9:58

kept secret, but it's not. was it

10:00

to defend the honour of your unit? That

10:04

was the genesis to it in

10:07

regards to defending the proof

10:09

and I'm on record at

10:12

Q&A saying that I would I would defend

10:14

and continue to defend 99.9% of all

10:18

for operations. There are

10:20

one or two notable exemptions which

10:22

I did in service

10:25

and I've done out of service. Brian

10:28

Nelson is one case that I took

10:30

issue with in service and

10:32

Scappatici is another case

10:34

which although I didn't

10:36

actually raise in service because of

10:38

a close association with one of

10:41

the primary and was

10:43

well aware of some of the nefarious

10:45

activities that he engaged in. Now

10:48

to book so what so

10:50

when you are working

10:52

and operating in this environment you're

10:55

living off a different oxygen than

10:57

you live off when you leave

10:59

service. So on

11:01

reflection I believed and

11:03

under state in fairness at this

11:06

stage they'd taken an ex parte

11:08

injunction out against me and threatened

11:10

to prosecute me under the Special

11:12

Secrets Act. So when

11:15

the book was being developed Mr.

11:18

Scappatici issued

11:20

a number of affidavits

11:23

specifically requesting that the state

11:27

prosecute me for a

11:29

breach of confidence. So I made

11:31

it very clear to Mr. Scappatici

11:33

that I would indeed accept

11:36

that I would owe him a

11:38

duty of confidentiality but that would

11:41

only be so if

11:43

he was not the

11:45

agent state knife. So in return for me

11:47

falling on my sword I expected

11:49

him to admit to his role and

11:52

he declined that offer. I

11:57

think we can all say no without any

12:01

reasonable doubt that Freddy Scappattici

12:04

was in fact of course steak

12:06

knife and the interim Operation

12:09

Canova report didn't

12:11

state that directly but almost did I suppose

12:13

we can put it that way. What's your

12:15

response to that initial Operation

12:18

Canova report? On

12:21

behalf of the state he's done a really good

12:24

handling job and he

12:27

has managed to spend 40 million

12:29

pounds and he

12:31

has not once examined

12:34

the real key elements

12:37

and I give you one example. So

12:40

what was the legal basis of

12:43

conspiring for handlers

12:46

to recruit an agent in the

12:48

first instance and asked them to

12:51

join a prescribed organisation. So the first thing

12:53

that if I was an investigator that I

12:56

would do is lay out the legal basis.

12:59

He doesn't touch on any

13:01

of the minutae he prefers to

13:04

do essentially an overview

13:07

so in essence I'm not

13:09

surprised. Unfortunately Mr.

13:12

Boucher and myself have engaged

13:14

in correspondence since mid

13:17

2016 and initially my

13:19

concern was raised because he spent the first

13:21

six months getting his arms around the shoulders

13:24

of the alleged victims. Essentially

13:27

as I explained to him

13:29

they're not victims alleged victims

13:31

and so such time as

13:33

you've substantiated there's been an

13:35

offence committed. Canova has criticized

13:38

the intelligence services saying they

13:40

exaggerated Scappatici's usefulness and not

13:42

hundreds of lives were saved

13:45

simply single figures. Well

13:48

I can think of three cases that Mr.

13:50

Scappatici saved lives on. One

13:53

being the first compromise of Frank

13:55

Haggis here, the second being these are cases

13:57

that I was involved in and the second

14:00

one being the extraction of Willie Carlin,

14:02

the third one being a source in

14:04

South Ammar. So

14:06

those are those three lives. But what

14:09

he fails to actually understand

14:12

and articulate is

14:14

that the Republican

14:16

movement, they knew that they

14:19

were penetrated at a very

14:21

senior level. And that literally

14:23

that destabilized that movement. And

14:26

God knows how many others

14:29

were saved because of the

14:31

level of penetration, not just of

14:33

Mr Scappuccino, but others as well.

14:36

So for him to just

14:39

take an arbitrary accountant's view

14:41

of, let's say he's taking a figure

14:44

of 18, 19

14:46

murders, and he's looking

14:48

at it as a profit and loss. I

14:51

don't think you can quantify it in those terms. Canova

14:54

also said that the Frew

14:56

were not rogue. And of course, they were

14:58

an official part of the British army. But

15:01

he did say they were working off the

15:03

books. He did imply that they were dark.

15:07

Okay, he is saying they're operating off

15:09

books. Well, we're reporting

15:11

to ministers. We're

15:13

reporting to head of special

15:15

branch. We're reporting

15:17

to the security services. And

15:19

ultimately, our controlling direction, let

15:22

me just explain to you

15:24

here, we can't recruit any

15:26

agents without the permission of

15:29

the head of special branch. HSB

15:32

is absolutely fundamentally

15:34

in control of everything we

15:37

do. Every intelligence which

15:39

comes in and gets exploited doesn't

15:41

get exploited by the Frew.

15:43

It gets exploited by TCG, 14

15:46

company, 22 SES. Now both

15:49

of those two force units come

15:51

under the direct control, not

15:53

of the GOC Northern Ireland, but

15:55

of the head of special branch. Here's,

15:59

this is Mr. about you is,

16:01

in my opinion, being economical with

16:03

the time. They're

16:06

not rogue, and we can

16:08

evidence we're not rogue, because

16:11

the legislators deliberately set

16:13

up the law to

16:15

allow what you might call dark

16:18

events. But as

16:21

individual intelligence operators, we

16:23

were absolutely assured there

16:25

was a lawful basis

16:27

for operates. You

16:29

have alleged, and correct me if I'm

16:31

misinterpreting this, but you have alleged that

16:34

Scappatici was used to, for want

16:37

of a better term, to take out

16:39

non-informing IRM. Now, I don't know which

16:41

is worse, because if Scappatici's taken out

16:43

his fellow informers, that would seem to

16:46

me, in a naive sense, to be

16:48

very, very bad. But

16:50

from the British Army's point of

16:52

view, I mean, we can see the logic of

16:54

Scappatici's use to take out non-informing

16:56

IRM, and that that would be a

16:59

positive result, but it wouldn't be legal. None

17:02

of it's legal, because we didn't have a legal...

17:05

That was my point right at the outset of

17:07

this. Mr. Boucher doesn't deal

17:09

with this. What was the legal basis

17:12

for the operation? There is none. Okay.

17:15

We didn't have a legal basis.

17:17

So by me asking you, Kieran,

17:19

to join a prescribed organization, I

17:22

am guilty of conspiring with

17:24

you in an unlawful act. There

17:26

was no protection. So we were guided

17:28

by one rule and one rule only,

17:30

which was the yellow card. That was

17:33

the only lawful instruction that we

17:35

had. This is why it's important that

17:37

when you spend 40 million

17:39

pounds, I expect, indeed,

17:41

I demand that Mr. Boucher actually

17:44

gets down into the minuity and

17:46

deal with the actual basis

17:49

of operation and who

17:51

knew what, where, when and how. But

17:53

then, I mean, if you are

17:56

operating without a legal basis,

17:58

but you are operating

18:00

as an official British Army unit

18:02

under orders, then perhaps we're in

18:04

the territory of semantics here. I

18:06

mean, were the Frew hung out

18:08

to dry then carrying out orders

18:10

without legal basis? Well,

18:12

it's the same for the LEC at that time.

18:15

They didn't have a legal basis for conspiring with

18:17

any person who committed

18:19

a criminal offence. But

18:21

the all essence is it

18:23

suited legislators not to draw

18:25

up strict guidelines. There was

18:27

no rules. That wouldn't

18:29

be a normal standard operating practice. You

18:33

would expect a legislator's

18:35

parliament would have ensured

18:37

what your legal basis of operating was.

18:41

We were assured that there was a

18:43

legal basis. So the Army's legal department

18:45

gave us assurances that you

18:47

have a legal basis for operating.

18:50

Now, nobody's ever been able

18:52

to show me that. And

18:54

if Mr Boucher has it, and

18:56

I know for a fact, because

18:58

I've got Kenova on video and

19:01

they're on record as saying that they've

19:03

told through all the documentary evidence

19:06

and there is none which shows

19:08

any of the coursework,

19:10

which essentially identified the

19:12

legal basis for operating. So in

19:14

other words, what the covenant was.

19:18

Ian, I'm going to be

19:20

slated for speaking to you

19:23

today. That's the truth. Nevertheless,

19:25

you know, why would you

19:28

be slated for somebody that

19:30

has consistently been accurate from

19:33

day one? You know, we can

19:35

lay this out in a timeline if you

19:37

want. You know, when Republicans first said,

19:39

well, you know, state knife is not

19:42

a one person. It's a conglomerate of

19:44

maybe six or seven other agents. And

19:47

then you've got the famous Barney Rowan

19:49

and Ann Cadwallader interview. And

19:52

Mr McGinnis and Mr Adams, but

19:55

personally voting for Scavittici

19:58

when they knew full well. that there'd

20:00

been previous investigations

20:03

by the Republican movement into him.

20:06

And it just coincidentally,

20:08

those investigations were actually used

20:10

in evidence against me in

20:12

the initial Academics one. And,

20:15

you know, there are just to give

20:17

one example, there were people within the

20:20

Republican movement who

20:22

absolutely were convinced

20:25

that Mr. Scappuccino was an agent,

20:27

Patrick Wilson is one, and

20:29

he was one of the people who re-interviewed

20:32

him when he comes back from Dundalk, when

20:34

he was on the run in

20:36

1991-92. So

20:39

for Mr. McGinnis and

20:41

Mr. Adams, and Mr. McGinnis was

20:43

his day-to-day superior

20:46

who controlled the internal

20:48

security unit on GHG,

20:51

for you to say that you're going

20:53

to get slated by speaking to somebody

20:55

who essentially has been in the public

20:57

interest trying to be

20:59

objective and fair to all sides,

21:01

because my job is for society.

21:04

I didn't join

21:06

the through to attack Republicans. I

21:08

didn't join the through. My first

21:10

job was actually to infiltrate lawyers

21:13

in that sense. Well, William, I

21:15

mean, I can say it. Look, I've

21:18

been objective all the way through here.

21:20

You were right about Scappuccino. I mean,

21:22

I don't think anybody's any doubt about

21:24

that. You were a unique source in

21:26

that you worked with the

21:29

through military intelligence here, but that's

21:32

why I'm going to be slated is

21:34

because you've also alleged that Martin McGinnis

21:36

protected Scappuccino. Martin McGinnis

21:38

denied it, Chen Fian denied it, Martin McGinnis' family, of

21:40

course, denied it, and no evidence has ever come out

21:42

about that. So Martin

21:45

McGinnis also denied that he was the

21:47

last person to see Frank Hagerty, one

21:49

of my agents, alive. Martin

21:51

McGinnis also, if you look at the

21:54

cook reports, The man

21:56

that essentially ran Scappuccino was

21:58

responsible within the. It just

22:00

gives you that was Mr. Mcguinness

22:02

like. Ultimately, I'm in a

22:05

very privileged position on I really

22:07

mean this in the and and

22:09

the true sense. So let let

22:11

me just expense you find. Take

22:13

it. She was been a previously

22:15

exposed agents within the Stitches In

22:18

and Dairy and he was a

22:20

sauna non grata. I was a

22:22

very very junior person within the

22:24

organization. I was a plate and

22:26

week. We used the Frank agencies

22:28

the This World as a test

22:30

bed to be able to ingratiate

22:33

the young. Bloods coming, friends

22:35

learn skills and in

22:37

severe and debriefing ancients

22:39

and I. Was. A

22:41

call handler on the very early

22:44

cases with from cake and for

22:46

day. That. I mean another

22:48

Geico Frank who was the

22:50

handler were brought into John

22:52

Spices office and asked soon

22:54

how they are meet with

22:56

him. and to ask

22:58

him or direction to get

23:00

along side. And. Martin Mcguinness

23:03

was an unbelievable this because

23:05

it was incredulous. Just. Made

23:08

me feel real estate. It's very

23:10

clear that see a belief of

23:12

dairy pilar. Leading.

23:14

Members within Dairy Pirate is that

23:17

this by this guy friends haggerty

23:19

out shouldn't be let anywhere near

23:22

the right. On the

23:24

only person who sponsored. Friends.

23:26

Haggerty. Through lives and

23:29

again it's made play but the

23:31

had a Loveless or the quartermaster

23:33

during and the book that the

23:35

sponsor was no the done Mr.

23:37

Mcguinness and we as the handlers

23:40

ride to the start of couldn't

23:42

believe this direction we were getting

23:44

from Trump's advice. but it it

23:46

was. Incredulous. but the

23:49

priests was. A relatively

23:51

smooth one from being a

23:53

compromised. Agents already compromised to

23:55

be and I said so

23:58

late second in command. Oh,

24:00

Strategic weapons, Libyan weapons which

24:03

were under his control. Night

24:05

for political reasons. the decision

24:07

was taken to essentially compromise

24:09

and cement which was the

24:11

angle. I screamed as Garret

24:14

Fitzgerald so he was compromised

24:16

so we were able to

24:18

get he months to a

24:20

secure location for me. Unfortunately,

24:23

events asked that resulted in a

24:26

lot of pressure being applied to

24:28

Mr. Mcguinness, who felt the need.

24:31

To. Look back. Frank.

24:34

And as the family for

24:36

Dorothy and his mother. Made.

24:38

Class. Mr. Mcguinness was the

24:40

person who sponsored He said, you know

24:43

I will guarantee you a safe return.

24:46

And. Sadly, That

24:48

wasn't true. Know in the normal

24:51

course of any murder investigation the

24:53

last person new has contacts with

24:55

the deceased his prime person to

24:57

be in the frame. And.

25:00

The police was stuffed from

25:03

investigating. Martin.

25:06

Mcguinness of course. He

25:08

he he is deceased he would have denied

25:10

this but was he was ah I leave.up

25:12

and leave that up to this not the

25:15

an eye to eye yeah absolutely I mean

25:17

you only have to leak see the video

25:19

of him. Which. Has

25:21

in behind the vehicle

25:23

with a bomb, a

25:26

weapon. And it's subsequently

25:28

exploding. And the V Our

25:30

rents been established has been

25:32

that the vehicle and and

25:34

in loan and in New

25:36

York the American broadcaster was

25:38

asked not to process that

25:40

film and that stood for

25:43

many, many years until a

25:45

Fantastic Journalists Tower Mcintyre. Actually,

25:48

Managed to transmit a. this

25:52

is rare footage of iran

25:54

members assembling a car bomb

25:56

and during that is unique

25:58

not just because Very few people

26:00

have ever seen it, but because

26:03

of who features in it. One

26:06

of the IRAs and merging leaders has

26:08

a starring role. A

26:12

very dangerous alarm clock timer. I

26:15

could blow them all to hell. Who

26:18

do you recognize? It's

26:20

Mark McGinnis. Handling weapons,

26:23

a rifle and a revolver. Rolling

26:28

up to a load of kids who are staring in the windows

26:30

and craning in the windows and he's showing them bullets. Terrific

26:33

really. And

26:36

again, I have to be careful there because,

26:38

you know, there are still people who are

26:40

in sensitive positions, but I am

26:43

absolutely 100% convinced

26:46

that Mr McGinnis

26:48

was certainly not for

26:50

the throw and certainly not for the

26:53

RUC, but he was an

26:55

agent of influence. What

26:57

was the motivations of the people recruited

26:59

as agents? Was it personal? Was it

27:01

political or was it profit? Well,

27:04

initially, in most cases, it

27:08

was ideological. In

27:11

what sense? In

27:13

the sense that they were revolted

27:15

about violence. I'll

27:18

give you one classic example. Another one

27:20

of Mr McGinnis's brainwaves

27:22

was the human bomb. And

27:26

what logic would it lead

27:28

anybody to believe that society

27:30

would accept strapping a

27:32

bomb to a kurtak and

27:34

driving into a PVCP would

27:37

do anything other than the

27:39

revulsion of society, which is what happened.

27:43

And people, I wouldn't say

27:45

flocked to us information,

27:47

but once you've got an A-con, it

27:50

grows. And there are

27:52

instances, you know, like the Enes-Gillen bomb

27:54

was another case. So. The Annan

27:56

bomb was another case and it would have been the same

27:58

with Alma, although... The her and

28:01

I'm guessing yes but any of the

28:03

atrocities would be an absolute I'm with

28:05

go mind So I mean ideology in

28:07

terms of like frustration or discussed or

28:10

a followed with the Ira at wouldn't

28:12

As if some someone got up in

28:14

the morning and decided that you know

28:17

that live their life as at wrongly

28:19

on they were no loyal to the

28:21

crime seltzer. You know full well the

28:24

level of penetration with a new a

28:26

new a pilot was well known to

28:28

be absolutely riddled with informs. And

28:31

terrorists it he was the same. but if

28:33

you if you went to see miles down

28:35

the road see what them two sets of

28:37

not. He. Out the level of

28:40

penetration was almost nil. And

28:42

to know. Almost. Feel the

28:44

difference between. A family

28:46

units the loyalty which was shown.

28:49

And. Exhibited between. Between.

28:51

Family so that was difficult to

28:53

penetrate. But. A in big.

28:55

In. I like you. You're

28:58

a stereo Belfast. It

29:00

was relatively easier. For

29:03

not easy. At

29:06

home, much of the Ira. Did.

29:09

You and the fruit. Another intelligence.

29:12

Groupings: Managed. To turn.

29:15

Do you think I'm in our know? It's guesswork?

29:17

Okay, what? Don't know. That is it. It's a

29:19

fair points is that point. And and. When

29:22

I would say that it's a concept. To

29:26

Job Stevens Give evidence. So

29:28

parliament's. And. He was

29:30

passed this very question and he

29:32

set out to tune. Didn't fourteen

29:35

people that he were arrested in

29:37

Steven's one two and three? He

29:39

give a figure. Of people

29:41

who were I'm going to stress

29:43

this word who were not agents

29:45

for. Sure, To Tune

29:48

didn't fourteen people they arrested. Only.

29:51

Four when not agents.

29:53

Have one or other are multiple

29:56

agencies cause you gotta remember this

29:58

sometimes. policies recruited

30:00

not only by the crew, but

30:03

by the RUC, the

30:05

ID and customs,

30:07

because customs also run, intelligence

30:10

operations. So, loyalism is

30:12

on a different scale to the

30:14

republican community. So, in regards

30:16

to the IRA, I certainly

30:18

wouldn't put it on the level of loyalism, but

30:21

I would think in the senior

30:24

level, so the officer level,

30:27

I would think one in three, and

30:30

at the foot soldier

30:32

level, the volunteer level,

30:36

may be one in four.

30:40

Still, with that level of penetration, it's difficult

30:42

to see how this organisation functioned

30:45

at all. Well, it didn't,

30:48

to a certain extent. So, if you look

30:51

at, say, some of the offences which took

30:53

in place in the United Kingdom on the

30:55

mainland, you know, some of the mainland bombings,

30:57

those operations, and they weren't

30:59

run from Belfast, they

31:01

were run from Saitama and safe

31:04

locations and parts of the republic.

31:07

So, that penetration is completely

31:09

different, but within the

31:11

32 counties, Angadashia

31:13

Corner had a very, very, very

31:16

good coverage. The

31:18

RUC had by far

31:20

better coverage than we did generally, but

31:23

not at the proper scale. And

31:27

we benefited from internment in the

31:29

early days, and then

31:31

towards the end of the trouble, so

31:33

certainly in the mid to late

31:35

80s, the early 90s,

31:37

we were strangled as a unit by

31:40

the RUC, and essentially didn't

31:43

want us to

31:45

operate in an effective way. And

31:47

they could do that, because, as

31:49

I explained to you, we couldn't

31:51

recruit. We couldn't put people on the

31:53

books without our HSB

31:55

and a special branch authorising

31:57

that recruitment. Certainly

32:00

it's a fascinating conversation. There's a

32:02

lot to take in. You've clearly

32:04

led a very interesting life and

32:07

a very interesting career. So

32:09

I mean I thank you for your

32:11

time. There are things that people would

32:13

dispute, but that's the nature of this.

32:15

This is the nature of

32:17

the whole intelligence things and even people writing

32:19

about it and people arguing over it and former

32:21

members of the IRA and fallouts

32:23

and everything else. So Q1,

32:26

absolutely you've summoned that up

32:28

perfectly, but what happened last

32:30

week, we had Cheltenham and

32:32

we had Cheltenham races. Now

32:34

each and every one of those races, the

32:37

punters that go before they put their money on

32:39

the horse, the first thing they do is look

32:41

at the form. So they look

32:43

at the past history. And if you look

32:45

at my form, it's been pretty

32:47

damn consistent. And if you

32:49

look at others form, it's

32:51

been inconsistent. And

32:54

if you look at Mr. Boucher, for example, 40

32:56

million pounds investigating

32:59

Opkin over and I've got to be

33:01

honest, a

33:03

kiddie could do better. And

33:06

that's that's the sadder than where

33:08

we are. And the people that really have

33:10

lost here, the victims and the

33:12

victims from this, they've been treated

33:15

in a cruel way for me. And

33:31

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