0:00

I'll tell

0:00

you a story about a guy called

0:02

Ben Shimoni. This guy lives

0:05

in, was in Beersheva. He

0:08

was at the party, that big party

0:10

in the Rheim where there was

0:12

the big massacre. He

0:14

had a car. He said to a bunch of folks,

0:17

get in my car, and he evacuated

0:19

them out to Beersheva,

0:21

saved five lives. And

0:23

then he said, well, I'm going back. And

0:25

his girlfriend said, you can't, don't go back.

0:27

Don't go back. He

0:29

evacuated another

0:31

five

0:32

people, saved their lives

0:34

back to Beersheva,

0:36

went back a third time into

0:39

harm's way. He didn't owe anything

0:41

to anyone. He didn't have to. He's a citizen.

0:43

He's not a soldier. He's not even a policeman.

0:46

On the third time, he took a bullet and

0:48

died. And I just met his mom. This

0:52

is the highest degree of courage that I've

0:54

seen. But like Ben, I've

0:57

seen about a hundred different

0:59

cases of courage that

1:01

even I, prime minister of Israel, and

1:04

I fought, I was a commander in

1:06

special forces. I've never seen this degree

1:09

of courage. In the wake of the devastating

1:11

Hamas attacks of October 7, which saw

1:13

the tragic loss of over 1,200 Israeli

1:16

lives, mostly civilians, as well as the kidnapping

1:18

of another 240 people by Hamas, we're

1:21

joined

1:21

by a figure central to Israeli politics and

1:23

international diplomacy. Naftali Bennett.

1:26

Bennett, born in 1972 in Haifa

1:28

to American immigrant parents, has been a dynamic

1:30

figure in Israeli politics. His

1:33

journey is marked by a transition from a high-achieving

1:35

soldier in the Israeli Defense Forces elite

1:38

Sayyid Markol and Maglan units, to

1:40

successful tech entrepreneur. Bennett's

1:43

political ascendancy began as chief of staff for

1:45

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, followed

1:48

by his leadership of the Jewish Home Party, and

1:50

then the New Right Party, reflecting his evolving political

1:52

philosophy.

1:53

He served in various ministerial roles,

1:56

including Minister of Economy, Religious

1:58

Services, and Education.

1:59

okay thing his versatility and commitment

2:02

to israel's development as the thirteenth

2:04

prime minister of israel and later the alternate

2:06

prime minister senate has navigated through

2:08

some altruist times marking his tenure with

2:10

significant decisions on domestic and international

2:13

from his approach to

2:15

leadership signals

2:15

he and offense has been influential making

2:18

him a key figure in understanding the complexities

2:20

of the israel from a conflicts in middle

2:22

eastern politics at large during

2:25

his time in office benefits a myriad of challenges

2:27

and opportunities he famously forms

2:30

unique a coalition government bringing together a diverse

2:32

array of a political parties combining both

2:34

and less jewish and arab religious and secular

2:36

fashion in this episode will

2:38

dissect the events of us over seven and the

2:41

ongoing war in an attempt to understand

2:43

their implications on the future of

2:45

israel and the middle east will discuss

2:47

ongoing strategies to navigate the conflict

2:49

and will be shedding light on the intricate dynamics

2:51

of middle eastern politics and the path forward

2:54

in these tumultuous times this is more

2:56

than just an interview it is essential dialogue

2:58

at a time of crisis welcome to the sunday special

3:11

foreign minister naftali bennett thanks to my freezer

3:13

english i really appreciate it great to be

3:15

urban so you're telling me a little bit

3:17

earlier before we started a you had a

3:19

a busy day the you are down south near the

3:21

near the gaza strip what what was that like what's going

3:23

on down there will i make it my business

3:25

to go down every two three days

3:27

to meet the soldiers soldiers

3:30

that just came out as governor her

3:32

on their way back to meet

3:34

the community stone the south to

3:36

the i want our var parts

3:38

of what's going on or by lords

3:41

idea is operating very well i

3:43

mean i'm impressed are

3:45

doing very good the and the

3:48

effectively tactic good advance

3:51

and in the northern part of our gaza

3:54

at this moment still idea

3:56

is that primarily operating at

3:58

the northern assassins go that's

4:00

been evacuated

4:03

of civilians, of Gaza civilians, so

4:06

about a million Gazans moved southward.

4:08

We do that according

4:10

to international law that we have

4:12

to evacuate them from

4:14

harm's way and we're killing

4:16

a lot of the Hamasniks.

4:18

At the same time I'll say that the bottom

4:21

line verdict from my perspective

4:23

it's going to take a while, it can

4:25

take months and because we have

4:27

to clean up all of Gaza

4:30

from Hamas, we have to

4:32

eradicate Hamas totally.

4:35

This is one of the things that I think people need to

4:37

understand is how difficult what

4:39

Israel is trying to do actually is. It's

4:41

not a situation in which you have uniformed officers

4:44

of an opposing military who are out in the field with something

4:46

to fight you. It's a situation in which people

4:48

are merging into the civilian population, not only hiding

4:51

in tunnels, but I would assume that since there are so

4:53

many civilians who have been mobilizing to

4:55

the south of Gaza, some of the people who are mobilizing

4:57

the south I would imagine are people who are also attempting to

4:59

escape the Israeli Quarantine and move down

5:01

into the south. And so that does raise

5:04

the question of what happens once

5:06

Israel has basically cleaned up the north.

5:09

Again it's perceptive population largely. What

5:11

happens now that you you have to move down

5:13

to the south? I assume there's going to be a similar population

5:16

transfer back to the north because Egypt

5:18

has not been opening the Rafah gate. So what exactly

5:20

happens when you move down to the south?

5:22

Not necessarily to the north, but I

5:25

assume IDF will arrange some

5:28

humanitarian areas

5:30

or safe havens that

5:33

we believe are in a good geography

5:36

and then will take care and isolate

5:39

a certain part, take care of it and

5:41

so on and so forth. I

5:43

guess it is really bending over backward

5:45

to prevent unnecessary harm

5:49

to civilians on the other side. It's

5:52

remarkable to see how

5:54

much effort Hamas is putting in to increase

5:58

not only the Israeli

7:44

is

8:00

a terror group who explicitly

8:02

goes out to murder

8:03

civilians

8:05

and then we're told again and again, well okay

8:08

but you guys are not like them

8:10

so we expect you to save

8:13

the the lives of the Gazans.

8:16

Our goal is to

8:18

defend our own lives first and foremost

8:21

and yes we want to reduce the

8:24

amount of collateral damage but there will

8:26

be

8:27

collateral damage. This is very

8:29

difficult. We are abiding by international

8:32

law, fully abiding by international

8:34

law. Whenever we hit a

8:37

target there's a reason, we

8:39

never deliberately shoot at the civilians

8:42

but we have to understand that

8:44

we're facing someone who explicitly

8:46

wants to raise their own numbers of deaths,

8:49

they are not sensitive to death

8:52

of their own people and they'll also

8:54

say something that might not be very popular

8:56

and this is unfortunate, I wish it were

8:59

not the case but it turns out

9:01

that not an insignificant

9:03

portion of the population

9:06

in Gaza is highly,

9:08

highly supportive of Hamas and

9:11

of the atrocities they did. Now

9:13

I'm not saying this as a

9:15

reason for us to target civilians, we

9:18

don't

9:18

but it's more complex as someone

9:22

pretend that the Gaza population

9:25

was hijacked by mean

9:28

Hamas and we've got this population

9:30

who is all just seeking

9:32

peace, I wish that were the case,

9:35

it's not. You

9:36

know at that point I have a lot of relevance for

9:38

all the questions that are being asked prematurely about what happens

9:41

the day after because Israel obviously

9:43

is trying to distinguish between civilians

9:46

and Hamas, again that's a very difficult proposition

9:48

given the fact that Hamas explicitly does not engage

9:50

in the rules of war, they're not wearing military

9:53

uniforms, they're embedding directly among

9:55

civilians, people slide in

9:57

and out of membership of Hamas pretty easily.

10:00

And you saw that even in October 7th when civilians were literally

10:02

crossing the border from the Gaza Strip into

10:04

these towns in the Gaza envelope and participating

10:06

in the carnage. I mean there were civilians who were participating

10:09

in the slaughter, in the looting,

10:11

and then going right back into the Gaza

10:13

Strip. And that makes it very difficult for Israel to

10:15

even tell sometimes who is the civilian

10:18

and who is not the civilian. And that's a nearly

10:20

impossible task. By the way Ben,

10:22

that's a very good point that I want to elaborate

10:24

on. Some of the worst

10:27

atrocities

10:28

were actually conducted by civilians

10:32

that came in, Gaza civilians that

10:34

came in in the third wave. The first wave

10:36

was a wave of what's called

10:38

Nuhba, the Hamas commando.

10:41

Second wave was a wave of what

10:43

we call simple soldiers. And

10:45

the third wave was just an all-out pogrom.

10:48

Some of the worst atrocities were actually

10:51

done by these Gaza

10:54

civilians. Now,

10:56

you know,

10:58

the general opinion

11:01

in Israel has shifted dramatically

11:04

since October 7th because

11:06

now left and right everyone

11:09

in Israel now realizes something

11:11

that not everyone realized beforehand. That

11:14

we're dealing with a degree of hatred,

11:16

of just poisonous

11:19

hatred against Jews and against

11:22

Israelis that is so

11:24

deeply entrenched in the psyche

11:27

of the masses

11:29

in Gaza and of our enemy. We

11:33

in Israel, again, saying

11:35

that this is very royal we, but many

11:38

in Israel have been under the impression that

11:40

if the lives of the Gazans

11:42

will be good enough and they have a good enough

11:45

economic future, etc., etc.,

11:47

gradually this will go away. And

11:50

it simply is not the case. Again,

11:53

that has implications for the day after.

11:55

There is only one poll that's actually been

11:57

done in the Gaza Strip. so-called

12:00

West Bank of the Palestinian Arabs

12:02

who are living there. And what it found is that 75% of

12:05

all Palestinian Arabs supported the October 7th attack.

12:07

78% wish to see the complete destruction of

12:10

the state of Israel. Hamas has about a 76% approval

12:12

rating in these areas after October 7th,

12:14

much, much higher than the Palestinian Authority

12:17

or any other supposed governing entity. That's leading aside

12:19

the fact that the Palestinian Authority itself has been downplaying

12:21

the atrocities they claimed just this week,

12:23

that the atrocities that happened at the music festival were

12:25

actually caused by Israeli helicopter gunships

12:28

as opposed to Hamas itself in Paris. And people, I

12:30

think, need to understand the nature of that conflict in

12:32

order so that they can even have a logical conversation

12:34

about what happens when Israel

12:37

achieves its goal of fully deposing the

12:39

power of Hamas. I mean, I assume when you say

12:41

it's going to take months, I think the reality in the Gaza Strip

12:43

is it's going to take years because Israel is going to have to embed

12:45

in the Gaza Strip indefinitely because

12:47

when you have a population that is

12:50

thoroughgoingly anti-Semitic, which by

12:52

pulling data they are, and when

12:54

that population is filled with

12:56

people who, if left to their own devices,

12:59

would start to act on behalf

13:01

of that ideology again, Israel is going to

13:03

have to essentially treat the Gaza Strip in

13:05

much the same way that it has to treat Janine or Nablus

13:07

or many of the places in the West Bank.

13:09

That's correct. I guess one

13:12

good way to view Gaza

13:15

and Hamas is an analogy

13:17

to the Nazi regime in Germany.

13:21

The Nazi regime enjoyed very widespread

13:24

support of the German population,

13:27

not everyone, but many, and a

13:30

sure majority. And then

13:32

imagine after years of incitement

13:35

and of brainwashing, they enjoyed

13:37

very, very broad support.

13:40

Therefore, the defeat

13:43

of Nazi Germany had to be a full,

13:45

you know, unconditional

13:48

surrender. And then there was a process

13:50

of several years of denotification

13:53

in order to re-educate the people

13:56

to new values. And

13:58

we're going to have to go through a... similar process

14:01

and it can take quite a few years. It could take

14:03

easily four, five,

14:05

six, seven years to

14:08

demystify the education

14:10

system, the media,

14:13

and see that people begin

14:16

to, if you will, detox themselves

14:19

from thinking that Jews are

14:21

pigs and devils

14:23

because as long as they think that they're

14:25

going to continue wanting to kill us. Does

14:27

Israel have any allies in that particular

14:30

effort? Because it seems like you're seeing pressure from

14:32

particular sources, including apparently the Biden administration,

14:35

to push for a Palestinian authority-led

14:38

negotiation in the West Bank or in the Gaza Strip,

14:40

which is in many ways practically

14:42

hilarious. I mean, they have effectively no presence in

14:44

the Gaza Strip as it is because Hamas literally killed everybody

14:47

who was a member of Qatar back in 2006, 2007. So

14:50

it's bringing in a foreign body and that foreign body

14:52

also happens to govern a nearly ungovernable

14:55

area that has similar levels of anti-Semitism in the West

14:57

Bank. So it's substituting an entity

14:59

that is not quite Hamas but certainly is not a

15:02

traditional civilian-led government that is

15:04

willing to make peace. If they hadn't been willing to make peace, then they

15:06

would have in the past when Mahmoud Abbas was literally sitting across

15:08

the negotiating table from former Prime Minister

15:10

Huda Olmert, who offered pretty much the entire

15:12

thing, and Abbas got up and walked away. Those

15:14

are the people that the Americans are now apparently counting

15:17

on, at least in some of their rhetoric, to come

15:19

in and sort of handle the negotiations. And that raises

15:21

the question of whether Israel

15:24

is going to have to do this alone single-handedly or

15:26

whether a coalition can be built maybe with

15:28

the Abraham Accord countries because the one thing that can't

15:30

be done is to hand this thing back to the UNRWA. I

15:33

mean, the UNRWA has been a front group for

15:35

Hamas in the Gaza Strip for a very long

15:37

time. The schools that are run by the UNRWA

15:39

are chalk-filled with anti-Semitism

15:41

and hatred for Israel. And so Israel

15:44

is going to have to take a much stronger hand

15:46

in the institutions of civil society. They

15:49

will have to replace if they had some allies in that effort who are

15:51

not already toxic.

15:53

I think that's exactly right.

15:56

Look, we, on

15:58

critical issues, we're going to...

17:59

the Palestinian refugee problem. But

18:02

here's the irony. This

18:05

United Nations organ is

18:08

responsible for inciting anti-Semitism

18:11

in the brains of the whole generation.

18:15

So it's a system 1945,

18:17

1946, during the Marshall Plan, we would have

18:20

handed, the West would have handed the

18:22

education system back to the Nazis

18:25

to educate another generation

18:27

of Nazis. That would just be

18:29

stupid. So we're not going to do stupid stuff,

18:31

even if our good friends think

18:33

otherwise, we'll persuade them. But

18:36

one way or another, we're going to do what's right. However,

18:38

at the same time, I want to tell you, Ben, we

18:40

don't want to govern

18:42

and manage the lives of two million people.

18:45

So it's not as if we want

18:47

to run their lives. No Israeli

18:49

has that desire. So

18:52

what we're going to need to do, and you alluded to

18:54

this, is build

18:56

a structure probably based on Abraham

19:00

Accord partners and some

19:02

form of alliance to find

19:04

first stage of technocratic government

19:07

that can run the show, take

19:10

care of taxes,

19:12

of energy, of water, of education, of

19:15

sewage, of taking garbage,

19:18

doing all the basic services, any

19:21

modern state needs. And

19:24

we're going to have to do that for a few years

19:26

until we, if you will, de-notsify

19:30

Gaza Strip and then figure out a structure

19:32

which may be a democratic structure, may

19:35

not be a democratic structure.

19:38

You know, there's some non-democratic structures

19:40

in the Middle East that are more successful than

19:43

the democratic ones. We're

19:45

going to have to figure out, we don't have to make that decision

19:47

right now. What I can tell you is

19:49

that the PA is the worst

19:51

candidate to do that. We'll

19:54

get to more with Prime Minister Napali Bennett in just one second

19:56

first. The world has witnessed heinous attacks

19:58

by Hamas terrorists against innocent people. Israeli

20:00

citizens. This most recent attack was

20:02

massive and devastating, killing over 1,000 Israeli

20:05

men, women, children, including babies. Thousands

20:08

more have been injured, kidnapped, and held hostage.

20:10

Hamas, a sworn enemy of Israel, will

20:12

stop at nothing to slaughter every last Jew

20:14

and claim Israel as their own, and then

20:17

move on to the West. But there's a beacon of hope

20:19

amidst the chaos. The International Fellowship

20:21

of Christians and Jews is on the ground right now, providing

20:23

critical essentials like food, medicine, and other emergency

20:26

supplies for vulnerable Jews who need immediate

20:28

help. But the need is urgent. This great organization

20:30

needs your help right now. To donate, please

20:32

go to benforthefellowship.org and give as generously

20:35

as you can. Write it down. That's benforthefellowship.org.

20:38

There are people in tremendous need in Israel

20:40

right now. I know many of them. Many of them are

20:43

fleeing from the north out of the range

20:45

of Hezbollah rockets. Many of them have fled from the Gaza

20:47

envelope. They need your help. Go to benforthefellowship.org.

20:50

Thank you. So I want to talk

20:52

in order about some of the other threats that Israel's facing

20:55

on its other borders, and then I saw one reverse course

20:57

talk about the beginning of the conflict,

20:59

what led to this failure

21:02

on the part of the Israeli security establishment, the failure

21:04

of imagination here, and how Israel

21:06

sort of internally has changed, what that means for

21:08

the world. So to talk about the other threats

21:11

on Israel's borders, obviously you

21:13

have the threat that exists in

21:15

the West Bank. That is not an insignificant threat, and people are

21:17

pretending that it is. The reality

21:20

is that Israel is expending extraordinary resources

21:22

actually in Judea and Samaria, the so-called West

21:24

Bank, up to October 6th. In

21:26

fact, one of the sort of things that led to October

21:29

7th was the fact that Israel was so focused on

21:31

the roiling undercurrent of violence

21:33

that was happening in Judea and Samaria, knife attacks

21:36

and gun attacks, and all that was happening for

21:38

months. I visited Israel, obviously, in

21:40

the weeks immediately prior to October 7th. I got

21:42

home the morning of October 6th, and

21:45

the focus when I was there

21:48

was on security in the West Bank. The

21:50

West Bank is a very difficult area

21:52

to govern. It's extremely

21:55

non-unitary.

21:57

I mean, you have cities that are not

21:59

linked to each other, you have places, but

22:02

at the same time you do have a lot of cross traffic,

22:04

especially around Jerusalem. You have a lot of cross traffic

22:06

from Palestinian areas to Jewish areas. No

22:09

cross traffic from Jewish areas to Palestinian areas because if you drive

22:11

into those areas then presumably you'll be killed. There's giant

22:13

red signs on the side of the road that tell you as much. And

22:15

so whenever people say it's in a part-side state of Israel, they say,

22:17

well, there's only one actual group of people who put the giant,

22:20

who insist on giant red signs and say if you drive in here

22:22

then you might be murdered. But when it comes

22:25

to the West Bank,

22:27

what is Israel's plan there? You mentioned the Palestinian Authority

22:29

is on its last legs or at least

22:32

incredibly weak. Mahmoud Abbas is 88 years

22:34

old. It's not as though he, in his

22:37

ravagingly charismatic person, is

22:40

holding things together. He's widely

22:42

seen and correctly seen as an elderly corrupt

22:45

oligarch. And it's not clear who's

22:47

going to take over for him. It's not clear if

22:50

open conflict breaks out in the West Bank between

22:53

members of, for example, Palestinian Islamic Jihad,

22:56

members of what's a smaller group called the Lions then.

22:58

There are a bunch of terrorist groups that are operating in the region

23:00

and there is no organized non-terror group

23:02

that's operating in terms of governance over there.

23:04

So what is Israel's plan over there?

23:06

So the plan for Judean Samaria,

23:08

aka the West Bank, would

23:11

be similar to the one in Gaza.

23:14

We ultimately don't

23:16

want to govern the Palestinians,

23:18

but at the same time we want to ensure that

23:21

we secure Israel. And keep

23:24

in mind that in Judean Samaria there's 550,000

23:26

Israelis currently living

23:29

there and about 2

23:31

million Palestinians. But the

23:34

good news is they live in separate areas

23:37

by and large. So we don't have to

23:39

mix too much. Between

23:42

that we should minimize friction.

23:44

And we need to ensure that there's a stable

23:48

and competent civilian

23:51

organ right now. Look, right now the PA

23:53

is there. It is what it is. And

23:57

we have to ensure that the The

24:00

PA de-notifies itself in

24:03

two dimensions. One is education

24:06

and

24:06

it's really important

24:08

because this is something that we tend to sort of say,

24:11

it sort of bores everyone. All right,

24:13

yeah, the Palestinians incite. It

24:15

is what it is.

24:17

No, it's not. Now we've learned that

24:19

incitement actually brings

24:21

people to dismember

24:24

babies, to burn families to rape

24:26

women out of

24:29

nationalistic or religious hatred.

24:32

And the second thing is the PA currently

24:35

pays terrorists

24:38

post-fact. After they've murdered Jews,

24:41

it pays them basically

24:43

according to the number of years that

24:45

you're in jail, which is

24:49

also according to the number of Jews you've killed.

24:51

So if you kill more Jews, you get paid

24:53

more. Now, this sounds really crazy,

24:56

but it's a reality as we speak. Right now,

24:59

every month, the terrorists

25:02

get paid or their families get paid. And

25:05

that's crazy. That's simply crazy

25:07

because it incentivizes the folks

25:10

to go out and kill Jews. And

25:13

it's also a measure that

25:15

reflects on the nature and character

25:18

of the Palestinian Authority. But

25:20

Ben, if I may, I want to zoom

25:23

out one moment because we sort

25:25

of zoomed into Gaza Strip

25:28

and to Judea and Samaria. But

25:30

the big picture is indeed a bigger

25:33

picture.

25:33

And if I may, this will take

25:36

one minute to explain. We

25:38

have an octopus

25:40

of terror in the Middle East. And

25:43

right now, we're viewing each of its arms individually,

25:46

but it's actually one octopus. So

25:48

we need to set

25:50

aside the microscope and just look

25:52

at it with a full view. The head

25:54

of this octopus is in Tehran.

25:57

It funds trains,

25:59

arms.

25:59

and instructs its

26:02

arms

26:03

to hit and

26:05

shed blood for Israel. Now it's

26:07

got its

26:08

tentacles of this

26:10

octopus are many fold

26:13

there's one tentacle one arm of the octopuses

26:15

Hezbollah that sits on Israel's

26:17

northern border in Lebanon. It's

26:20

got two more arms Islamic

26:22

Jihad and Hamas that sit

26:24

in the Gaza Strip just

26:27

to make a

26:29

point here a hundred percent of Hezbollah's

26:31

military budget comes from Iran a hundred

26:34

percent a hundred percent of Palestinian

26:37

Jihad Islamic

26:39

Jihad comes from Iran twenty

26:41

percent of Hamas funds come

26:43

from Iran then you have

26:45

the Houthis in Yemen and

26:48

you have militias in Iraq and in Syria

26:51

and they built a very

26:53

convenient methodology

26:56

to hurt Israel

26:59

as a representative of the free world in the

27:02

Middle East and so Iran

27:04

they sit quietly enjoy life back

27:06

into Iran the corrupt

27:09

and mullahs

27:10

and these

27:11

arms hit us

27:13

through Lebanon and through Gaza primarily

27:16

but also West Bank and others.

27:19

I've been since I was a soldier

27:22

and a commander and later on in security

27:24

cabinet this has frustrated

27:26

me because I felt that we're

27:29

fighting the wrong war we're playing to their

27:31

strategy they want us

27:34

to fight the arms

27:36

and shed blood and that's what's happening right

27:38

now now right now I don't think we have much

27:40

of a choice but when I was prime minister I

27:43

affected a new doctrine

27:45

I called it the octopus doctrine which

27:48

said as far as I can I

27:50

want to not fight wars in Lebanon and

27:52

Gaza and I want to go

27:54

to the

27:55

hit the head go for the jugular

27:57

and a

27:58

court According to foreign

28:00

sources, during my tenure,

28:04

Israel was hitting hard

28:07

targets in

28:09

Tehran, not only related to the nuclear

28:12

project. For example, when

28:14

they tried to hit us with UAVs

28:17

or advanced drones, suddenly

28:19

a few days after, according to foreign sources,

28:22

a whole drone base was destroyed

28:24

on

28:25

Iranian soil.

28:27

When they tried to kill Israelis in

28:29

Turkey and Cyprus,

28:31

suddenly a commander of their terror

28:33

unit was assassinated in the heart of Iran.

28:36

Because I noticed something very interesting. Tehran

28:40

and Iranians, the Iranian regime

28:43

is much softer than its

28:45

arms.

28:46

A family in Iran,

28:48

you know how many kids they have?

28:50

Two.

28:51

Two kids. They've modernized,

28:54

they're soft, and I still

28:56

believe that

28:57

this is the right approach. Strategically,

29:00

we have this Cold War

29:02

going on between us and

29:04

Iran, and now we

29:07

need a strategic goal of

29:09

toppling that regime. I'm saying this explicitly

29:11

in the past. I didn't say it. I

29:13

think all of the energy that we're

29:15

expending in Gaza and in Lebanon,

29:18

we'd be better off

29:20

focusing on the very head and strangling

29:22

it, and then ultimately

29:25

the arms would die away

29:27

for

29:27

lack of resources.

29:30

So let's talk about that, because I was about

29:32

to move to the north and talk about Hezbollah. You're talking about

29:35

going after Iran instead. What capacity

29:38

would Israel have to have in order to actually take

29:40

out the regime in Iran? Obviously,

29:43

both the Trump administration and the Biden administration have

29:45

been very reluctant to go directly up

29:48

against Iran, despite the fact that America is a

29:50

tremendously powerful country militarily. Obviously,

29:53

the IRGC, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard

29:55

Corps, is very large. They seem very loyal to the

29:57

Ayatollahs, which is part of the problem.

30:00

Is there any prospect of a rebellion from within the

30:02

IRGC because it seems like in the Middle East That's really

30:04

the only way they end up with the regime replacement

30:07

It's not as though popular uprisings in

30:09

these places tend to alone topple

30:11

the regimes And we've seen literally hundreds of thousands

30:13

of Iranians in the streets over the past few years and

30:15

that has effectually Effectively accomplished very

30:17

little with regard to changing the nature of

30:20

the regime in Tehran So what sort of what

30:22

sort of forces could be applied against

30:24

the Iranian regime in order to in order to

30:27

topple that regime or replace it? So

30:28

that's a very good question Ben and the

30:31

answer is I view it very

30:35

similar to the Cold War where of

30:37

the Middle East where Israel is is If

30:40

you will the America of the Middle East the free

30:42

nation a democracy with a vibrant Economy

30:45

and growing economy and then you have the

30:47

Soviet Union if you will of the the

30:50

Iranian corrupt

30:53

old out of out of contact with

30:55

people regime Incompetent

30:57

not delivering services not not being

31:00

able to deliver water to certain

31:02

tracts of land in Iran

31:06

and and ultimately if you use that

31:08

analogy and I would There

31:11

are ways to accelerate the demise

31:13

of this very Very

31:17

rotten regime beyond the fact that ideologically

31:20

it's horrible And I'm talking

31:22

about many dimensions and talking about covert

31:25

overt economic

31:27

warfare

31:28

Diplomatic warfare and

31:31

indeed also

31:33

What we call You

31:36

know actual physical warfare,

31:39

but I'm not necessarily suggesting that tomorrow

31:41

we physically attack Iran

31:44

there are many ways

31:46

to enhance and accelerate

31:48

Internal

31:51

Unrest for

31:53

example, I don't

31:55

want to give too many examples, but I'll

31:58

just go back to

31:59

open up the textbook

32:02

of what America did to the USSR

32:04

in the 80s, it empowered

32:08

solidarity which was in Poland,

32:10

it was underground and gave

32:13

them tools to be much more

32:15

effective. What if the free

32:17

world and this cannot be an Israeli project

32:19

alone, it needs to be done with collaboration

32:22

of course with our biggest ally America, but

32:24

what if we empowered internet

32:28

communication tools, arms

32:31

to the various groups

32:33

and next time there's mass demonstrations

32:36

they're much more effective.

32:38

This time the Iranian regime just turned

32:40

off the internet and internet

32:42

connections and WhatsApp and Telegram all

32:45

crashed, but there are ways to solve

32:47

all of this and this is just the tip of the

32:49

iceberg. So my point then is

32:52

if we look at this and we finally

32:54

understand that

32:55

the epicenter of evil

32:58

and unrest and terror of this entire

33:00

region

33:01

and beyond that, the rest of the world is

33:03

actually the Islamic Republic of

33:06

Iran, I think we can

33:08

work out a reasonable plan

33:10

to make this happen

33:12

within a reasonable time frame.

33:15

I can't put a stopwatch on it.

33:18

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33:18

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34:24

It's an interesting approach given the fact

34:26

that it does look like there is a shot

34:29

clock that's already going with regard to Hezbollah.

34:32

What I mean by that is that if you're

34:34

Iran and Hezbollah is effectively your forward operating

34:36

arm, and for folks who don't understand Hezbollah

34:39

is effectively a terror group in

34:41

control of the country. They're in control of Lebanon. They

34:43

control the southern Lebanon border, which

34:45

is right on Israel's northern border. They

34:47

have about 200,000 rockets that are pointed into the interior

34:50

of Israel. Tens of thousands of those, maybe

34:52

up to 50,000, are sophisticated rockets

34:54

that actually are capable of targeting as opposed to the dumb rockets

34:57

that were being fired from the

34:59

Hamas controlled territory in the Gaza

35:01

Strip. They have significant military

35:03

capabilities. They have a very large army

35:06

of their own. They're effectively a military,

35:08

but again, a much larger, more powerful military

35:10

actually than Hamas was able to deploy

35:13

in this or any other war. Let's

35:16

say that Iran arrives at a nuclear weapon. It

35:18

seems at that point, then the possibility of

35:20

Hezbollah getting fully

35:22

into a war with Israel rise pretty

35:24

dramatically because then the idea would be that if Israel fights

35:26

back too strongly, then Iran

35:28

would threaten to either fire a nuke or hand

35:30

off a nuke to one of its ally

35:33

groups. That means the clock is sort of going with regard

35:35

to Hezbollah. And after what just happened with Hamas, how

35:37

long does Israel have before it either

35:39

has to take out the Iranian regime

35:42

if they can or take out Hezbollah?

35:46

Because the fact is right now there are 30,000 Jews

35:48

who have evacuated from the north of Israel are not living in

35:50

their homes. They can't last indefinitely.

35:52

Correct.

35:53

So I think the clock

35:55

is ticking on the Iranian nuclear

35:59

program. I think that's the main

36:01

point, that's the main lever.

36:04

And you're absolutely right that we

36:06

can't allow that to happen. They don't have yet

36:09

nuclear arms, but they've

36:11

made tremendous progress over the past

36:14

five years.

36:15

And

36:17

I have a sense, I would put it this way, I think

36:22

it's not enough to say we

36:24

won't allow Iran to

36:26

acquire nuclear weapons. There's

36:29

much more that can be done on the

36:33

Israeli-Washington

36:37

alliance to prevent this from

36:39

happening. And

36:42

to some extent, sometimes it seems it's

36:45

sort of lip service saying that we're

36:47

not going to have Iran acquire this. But there's

36:50

many, many actions that have to happen.

36:54

So we ensure that Iran

36:56

doesn't acquire a weapon, a nuclear

36:59

weapon before the demise of its

37:01

regime. Sort of a

37:03

race between what would happen first.

37:06

I'm not talking about weeks or months,

37:08

it could be years, but

37:09

we have to ensure that they don't achieve

37:12

that. It would be a disaster not

37:14

only vis-a-vis Hezbollah and Israel,

37:16

it

37:17

would turn the entire Middle East into

37:19

a

37:20

nuclear nightmare because everyone

37:22

would go nuclear. And

37:24

they would cite self-defense as a reason. The Saudis

37:27

would go nuclear. Turkey,

37:29

Egypt, everyone would go nuclear. And

37:32

then you've got the craziest region on

37:34

Earth,

37:34

the most unstable region

37:36

on Earth with hundreds of nuclear

37:39

weapons.

37:40

So the next 9-11 would

37:42

be a nuclear 9-11. And it would

37:44

be in Manhattan or in Boston

37:47

or in San Francisco. If

37:50

there's a lesson learned from 9-11 and

37:53

October 7th, the combined lesson is

37:55

these guys will do anything.

37:59

It's not about affecting their motives,

38:02

it's about preventing them capabilities

38:05

to do harm. So let's talk

38:07

about the linkage between anti-Westernism and

38:09

anti-Israel sentiment. I think the temptation for

38:12

a lot of people in the West is to say, well, it's

38:14

happening very far away, it's happening over there, it

38:16

has nothing to do with us here in the United States

38:18

or in England or in France. Who

38:20

really cares? Sure, the Israelis are good,

38:22

sure Hamas is bad, but the easiest thing

38:25

to do is sort of wash your hands, what do we

38:27

care, blood and pressure, there's no reason

38:29

for us to sacrifice either one of those and

38:31

Israel is strong enough to sort of take care of itself,

38:33

so what's the big deal? How

38:35

do you answer that question? That's

38:37

a very good point and I answered

38:39

with historic evidence. Here's

38:43

the bottom line,

38:44

the radical Islamic

38:47

terror innovations, the startups

38:50

happen in the Middle East,

38:52

if you will, we're the accelerator,

38:55

but then they go public in Europe

38:57

and America. Let me illustrate

38:59

this, the innovation of

39:02

hijacking airplanes started in the Middle

39:04

East in the 70s and hit

39:06

the rest of the world. Then there

39:08

was an innovation, another

39:11

radical Islamic innovation of actually

39:13

it was Fatah and Hamas

39:15

in the early 90s, the suicide

39:18

terrorists that blew themselves

39:20

up in vehicles, etc. So

39:23

it started here,

39:24

but it was exported very

39:26

handily to Manhattan

39:29

on September 11th and I

39:31

was in Manhattan on that day and

39:33

to London and to Madrid

39:36

and then you can go on. Now

39:38

the new startup,

39:41

it's a new form of terror, I would

39:44

call it mob terror that

39:46

evolves into a pogrom, into

39:49

unblocked slaughter.

39:53

I would almost guarantee this will

39:55

happen if we don't

39:58

or we're not allowed. to eradicate

40:02

from us

40:03

because the way it works these days certainly

40:07

is terror, it happens

40:10

in a wave. You have the

40:11

initial startup,

40:13

then a bit of inspiration and

40:15

you have your first attack, then

40:17

second, third and fourth, after the

40:20

fourth you can get into dozens of attacks,

40:22

so it's sort of like this

40:25

wave of accelerated

40:26

pace of terror

40:28

if it succeeds. However, if

40:31

you nip it in the butt very early, then

40:33

it doesn't evolve into this wave.

40:36

That's why anyone watching

40:38

this that is sitting in Minnesota

40:41

or Belgium or Florence

40:44

for that matter has

40:46

a big interest in truncating

40:49

and severing this wave early

40:52

on before it goes public

40:54

in the West. Now, in that

40:56

sense, Israel's doing your job. We're

40:59

doing your job.

41:00

We're unfortunate to

41:03

be the neighbors of these lunatic

41:06

radical Islamist terrorists, but

41:09

in many countries in the world, there's

41:11

considerable

41:14

Islamic populations that also

41:17

consist of portions that harbor

41:20

radical Islamic ideas, not everyone

41:22

by any stretch of imagination, but

41:25

some of them. And if it succeeds

41:27

here, you're gonna see copycats.

41:30

So what I would do if I was a leader

41:32

of any Western country is

41:35

help Israel win, certainly

41:37

not to condemn or

41:40

trying to bring upon a

41:42

so-called ceasefire which is really

41:45

the dumbest thing in the world

41:47

because we had a ceasefire,

41:50

they attacked, now we're attacking back and

41:52

we have to win. And

41:54

you can't seize the fire

41:55

before we eradicate Hamas. If

41:58

the world tries to force us to that. And

42:00

God forbid succeeds, it's

42:03

coming soon.

42:04

One of the things that I think this entire conflict

42:06

has exposed is an extraordinary level

42:09

of moral gap all over the world.

42:11

I'm not sure I've ever seen as much moral clarity as you

42:13

see in this moment when you see people marching

42:16

hundreds of thousands strong through Western capitals

42:18

in favor of Hamas. And

42:20

when people are chanting from the river to the sea, what they are chanting

42:22

is in favor of Hamas. This attempt to sort of distinguish

42:25

the quote unquote Palestinian cause from Hamas. That's

42:27

something the protesters themselves don't attempt to do. The protesters

42:30

never say Hamas needs to be replaced so we

42:32

can have a two state solution. That is not a thing that

42:34

any protester I've ever seen has

42:36

said. Instead they're making the case that Israel needs to stop

42:38

killing Hamas so that from

42:40

the river to the sea can eventually be quote unquote

42:42

liberated. And by liberated they mean completely dominated

42:45

by a Toronto Islamic fascist regime.

42:48

It's absolutely insane. When

42:50

we talk about moral clarity I want to talk about it in a couple

42:52

of different contexts. One I want to talk about it in the context

42:54

of Israel where there's a new sort of reawakening

42:56

of moral clarity. And then I want to talk about it in the West

42:58

and then I want to talk about the lack of aid in the media. So

43:01

let's start with Israel. So as I mentioned

43:03

I've been spending a lot of time in Israel for the

43:05

Jewish holidays recently and until

43:09

October 7 the kind of narrative

43:11

in Israel is that Israel was uniquely divided,

43:13

fractured. There was a lot of irresponsible

43:15

and I think rather disgusting talk about civil

43:18

war in Israel which I thought was ridiculous on its face

43:20

considering that everybody who's Chiloni, everybody who's secular

43:22

there has a cousin who is Dati Lumi.

43:25

It's just too small a country. There's certainly

43:27

an enormous amount of dislike and

43:29

enormous amount of anger but the

43:31

reality is that again even people who are

43:33

secular in Israel celebrate Shabbat and

43:36

even Dati Lumi meaning people who are orthodox,

43:38

who are not Ha'arid, they're serving the military as

43:41

well. But that was the nature of the

43:43

debate. The debate was all about these internal fractures and

43:45

was the state going to survive these internal fractures and

43:48

all this kind of stuff. And then October 7 happens and

43:50

the entire state comes together in a way that it

43:53

really has not ever. The last

43:55

predicate for this might be 48, the War of Independence,

43:58

but even there I think to say that

44:00

Israel has come together in the same way that

44:02

it has right now. As I've been

44:04

talking about in some of the speeches I've been giving, whether

44:07

you're talking about secular Jews who are putting on

44:09

TTOs in order to show solidarity

44:12

or whether you're talking about Karedim who are starting

44:14

to join the army, the kind of solidarity

44:16

that has snapped into place is amazing. I wonder if

44:18

you want to talk about that solidarity on a social level,

44:21

that social cohesion, and also the ideological

44:24

recognition that I think a lot of Israelis

44:27

were snapped back into, which is that Israel

44:30

is surrounded by enemies that actually want to slaughter it, and

44:32

that security is the order

44:35

of concern that always has to come first.

44:37

How does that mindset shift there?

44:39

Well, I think you've hit the nail on

44:41

the head. Those are the precise two

44:44

eureka moments, if you will, for

44:47

the Israeli public. The first one,

44:49

and here I differ a bit in

44:51

the sense that I do think we were heading to

44:54

a horrible, horrible place.

44:57

Not saying people would shoot each other, but we

45:00

were tearing ourselves apart, and

45:02

wrongly so. Because

45:05

of a lack of ability to compromise,

45:08

and everyone is sure that he's the only one right,

45:11

and here, shame on us. In

45:16

a sense, I actually think that this

45:19

year, leading up

45:21

to October 7th, so divided

45:23

us, and

45:25

so weakened our immune system,

45:28

our defense systems, our enemies

45:30

saw that and attacked.

45:32

This is clear to me that

45:35

our attention was diverted

45:37

from what's important. We were

45:39

not focused on the real things. We

45:41

were just killing ourselves

45:43

from within, and we

45:46

know that our enemy was paying close attention,

45:49

waited for the weakest moment,

45:52

and hit us.

45:53

So we've awakened from that. And

45:56

I think it's vital that we don't revert back.

46:00

to the polarization we were undergoing

46:02

before. And

46:07

I know right now it seems that we're never gonna

46:09

revert back because we took such a big

46:12

blow, but when

46:14

I look at historic precedents, things

46:17

do tend to settle back into

46:19

the

46:20

good old or bad old

46:22

frames that

46:25

we're used to. And that would be a disaster. We have

46:27

to transcend it. Look, I myself

46:30

harbor right of center opinions.

46:33

If I were living in America, I would be considered

46:36

a moderate Republican. Those

46:39

are my personal opinions regarding

46:41

many things, economy, nation,

46:44

state, et cetera.

46:45

But

46:47

having said that, it's gonna

46:49

be vital to put

46:51

together a very broad

46:53

unity government moving

46:56

forward, setting aside

46:58

the disagreements as long as we

47:00

can and focusing on restoring security,

47:04

reviving our economy and even leaping forward

47:06

in many ways possible.

47:08

The second point that you said is also

47:11

clear. All of us, all

47:13

of us, right and left,

47:15

we sort of

47:16

tended to forget that

47:19

we're surrounded by people

47:21

who wanna dismember our

47:24

bodies, that wanna burn us alive.

47:27

And it's

47:27

no longer a cliche. It's

47:30

no longer a platitude.

47:33

This is reality. It happened.

47:35

It happened. A deliberate, massive

47:38

slaughter attack. And by

47:40

the way, shame on us for allowing

47:42

this to happen. This is, we have

47:45

to admit the reality as it is. It's a

47:47

massive failure of

47:49

the state of Israel to have allowed this to happen.

47:52

This is precisely what Israel

47:54

was established to prevent, to

47:56

prevent Jews being slaughtered without

47:59

protection. same time and

48:01

the reason I'm optimistic

48:04

is that while it's our darkest hour,

48:07

I have to say, and I didn't know this,

48:10

it's also our finest hour. The

48:12

people on ground that I've been meeting,

48:14

including earlier today down

48:17

in Khwarazah and in other

48:20

Qibbutzim fighters, is the degree

48:22

of personal courage

48:25

and generosity that

48:27

I've seen is something that

48:29

I didn't think exists in our generation. I

48:31

think I

48:34

tend to think that it was

48:35

the war of independence, they were the

48:37

real heroes, then the six they were, they were the

48:39

real heroes. I am seeing

48:41

heroism. For example,

48:44

just earlier today, I'll tell you a

48:46

story about a guy called Ben Shimoni.

48:49

This guy lives in, was

48:51

in Bersheva.

48:52

He was at the party, that big

48:54

party in Reim where there

48:57

was the big massacre.

48:59

He had a car, he said

49:01

to a bunch of folks, get in my car and he

49:03

evacuated them out to Bersheva,

49:06

saved five lives,

49:08

and then he said, well, I'm going back. And

49:10

his girlfriend said, you can't, don't go back,

49:12

don't go back. He went back,

49:14

evacuated another

49:16

five

49:17

people, saved their lives

49:19

back to Bersheva,

49:21

went back a third time to the,

49:23

into harm's way. He didn't owe

49:26

anything to anyone. He didn't have to. He's

49:28

a, he's a citizen. He's not a soldier. He's not

49:30

even a policeman.

49:31

On the third time he took a bullet and died.

49:34

And I just met his, his mom. This

49:37

is the highest degree of courage that I've

49:39

seen. But like Ben, I've

49:42

seen about a hundred

49:44

different cases of courage

49:46

that even I, prime minister of Israel,

49:49

and you know, I thought I was a commander

49:51

in special forces. I've never seen this

49:53

degree of courage. Why am I telling you

49:55

this Ben?

49:57

Because it means that we have huge

49:59

potential.

50:01

in this nation. It's

50:03

an amazing nation of goodwill,

50:06

of generosity, of sacrifice,

50:08

of toughness, of ingenuity,

50:12

innovation. We

50:14

can turn Israel into the

50:16

most amazing country on earth and

50:20

we can. I know it looks crazy

50:22

to be talking about this right now, but we can

50:24

and it's our choice. So that's why I'm

50:27

very optimistic because while

50:30

we had a total failure of

50:33

the institutionalized organs

50:36

of the country, the government,

50:38

etc., etc., the people have

50:40

shown amazing, I

50:44

would say,

50:46

strength and

50:49

that's why I'm optimistic. We've

50:51

got the material to move forward.

50:54

Folks, our conversation continues for our Daily

50:56

Wire Plus members right now. If you'd like to hear

50:58

the full conversation, click that link at the top of the

51:00

episode description and join us at dailywireplus.com.

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