0:00

You know, the

0:00

challenge is not just in how you

0:02

engage students, but also how

0:02

you engage teachers. Stay

0:05

engaged. And yeah, you know, not

0:05

just kind of going through the

0:08

motions, because I see that, you

0:08

know, especially online, there's

0:11

a lot of a lot of teachers

0:11

saying, you know, I saw one

0:14

yesterday, you know, what kind

0:14

of jobs could I do if I wasn't

0:17

in teaching, and then there's

0:17

all these people piping in and

0:20

saying, Well, you could do this

0:20

roll, or I left last year, and

0:23

I'm leaving. And it's funny, in

0:23

a sense, but it's a sad

0:26

indictment of where we're at as

0:26

an education movement. You know,

0:29

we need to be engaging students,

0:29

but we need to be engaging

0:32

teachers as well. The better

0:32

mindset podcast, you're

0:35

listening to The Better Mindset

0:35

Podcast. I'm Mark Herring.

0:38

And I'm Bex Rose.

0:39

And today on the

0:39

podcast, we've got an interview

0:41

with Joe McIntyre Brown, one of

0:41

the steam learning specialists

0:45

at manually what intermediate in

0:45

Auckland backs. But before we

0:47

get into that interview, which I

0:47

know you weren't part of, so

0:50

you'll be able to listen to it

0:50

afterwards. I just wanted to

0:53

quickly show you remember how on

0:53

the last episode, in making

0:56

waves, we were talking about the

0:56

health benefits of wearing

0:58

watches. I just just wanted to

0:58

show what I've got. Back in the

1:06

Apple ecosystem, so I managed to

1:06

manage the source, a stainless

1:10

steel one, which is really cool, because it's got the Steph sapphire screen on it. So yeah,

1:12

one of the things I was really

1:15

interested in, one of the things

1:15

I was kind of like pulled in the

1:18

Garmin direction was just the

1:18

robustness of it, you know, you

1:21

could smash it up against walls.

1:21

And when I'm at hiking and

1:23

running and stuff like that, I don't have to worry about scratching the screens, but I

1:24

was able to sell it and then get

1:27

a second hand sapphire version,

1:27

which is I didn't

1:30

know that was a

1:30

thing. Yeah, that's really cool.

1:33

It's,

1:33

it's like a couple

1:33

of $100 more than the standard

1:36

series seven or seven, eight,

1:36

series eight. But um, yeah,

1:38

it's, it's one of the values

1:38

and, and having second hand

1:41

Apple gear is that it holds its

1:41

value. But it's, you know,

1:44

you're able to get that premium

1:44

price. So yeah, super keen to be

1:48

back into the Apple ecosystem.

1:48

And now I get all the smart

1:51

functionalities of navigation

1:51

and direct messages. And yeah,

1:55

all of those things. So that's

1:55

really cool. Anyway, so I track

1:57

let's get into the Dan. Well,

1:57

very excited to have Joe

2:03

McIntyre from manually

2:03

intermediate on the call. And

2:06

we've actually known each other

2:06

for a number of years, Joe, and

2:09

I'll get you to talk a little bit about what you do in the school and what your lead roles

2:11

is. I'll let you introduce

2:13

yourself in a second. But I know

2:13

that a lot of the connection

2:16

that we've had over the years

2:16

has been around steam learning.

2:18

So I'm excited to talk to you

2:18

about that. One of the things

2:21

that I am hearing and Bix and I

2:21

are hearing from a lot of

2:23

leaders across Southeast Asia

2:23

and Australia and New Zealand is

2:27

the engagement factor. So how do

2:27

we encourage students who have

2:31

been through the COVID, remote

2:31

lockdown period, the challenge

2:34

and the impact that that's having in the classroom now about getting student

2:36

engagement, not only just in attendance, especially in the

2:37

middle school space, you know,

2:40

the intermediate school space,

2:40

but how do we actually not just

2:42

get them there? But how do we

2:42

get them reengaged enthusiastic

2:45

about their learning. And as we

2:45

know, it's not just about

2:48

reading, writing and maths. But

2:48

what we're excited to talk about

2:50

is what it looks like from your

2:50

perspective in terms of

2:53

integration, because I really

2:53

think that that's one of the key

2:55

things moving forward,

2:55

innovative practice, integrated

2:59

learning, combined with digital

2:59

tech and a lot of the exciting

3:03

innovations that are happening

3:03

in that space, excited to get

3:05

into this with you. So tell us a

3:05

little bit about your role in

3:08

the school, and maybe how you

3:08

got there, and then we'll go

3:10

from there. How does it sound?

3:12

It sounds great. So

3:12

yeah, my name is Joe McIntyre,

3:14

Brown. And I have a couple of

3:14

different roles in the school.

3:17

So I'm the lead for education

3:17

for sustainability effects at

3:21

school. And I've had quite a

3:21

long, long history in that

3:24

space. I'm also the across

3:24

school leader, as you said, for

3:28

coffee Akal. And so that is in

3:28

the steam and integration space.

3:33

And then I'm a module subject

3:33

teacher, so I teach sustainable

3:36

enterprise to every class as

3:36

they as they come through

3:39

school, so across the school

3:39

year, so a bit of a range of

3:41

roles, but they all fit

3:41

incredibly well together. So I'm

3:45

really, really lucky to have the

3:45

position that I do, and the

3:47

ability to try quite a lot of

3:47

new things. So new innovations

3:51

and new ways of seeing things,

3:51

you know, it's involved a little

3:54

bit of a paradigm shift. In

3:54

fact, it involves them on quite

3:57

a regular basis. But I love that

3:57

because I need that to feel

4:01

engaged and excited, which is

4:01

pretty much what our students

4:04

need. Right? So 100%?

4:06

Well, it's funny you say that, because that's what we're talking about, you

4:08

know, the challenge is not just in how you engage students, but

4:10

also how you engage teachers.

4:14

Stay engaged, and yeah, you

4:14

know, not just kind of going

4:16

through the motions, because I see that, you know, especially online, there's a lot of a lot

4:18

of teachers saying, you know, I

4:21

saw one yesterday, you know,

4:21

what kind of jobs could I do if

4:24

I wasn't in teaching, and then

4:24

there's all these people piping

4:26

in and saying, Well, you could

4:26

do this role, or I left last

4:29

year, and I'm leaving, you know,

4:29

it's funny, in a sense, but it's

4:32

a sad indictment of where we're

4:32

at as an education movement. You

4:35

know, we need to be engaging

4:35

students, but we need to be

4:37

engaging teachers as well. So

4:38

absolutely. Sounds

4:38

like you've shaped

4:41

your own role in

4:41

an innovative way. You've

4:44

already shaped that whole role

4:44

around, you know, innovative

4:47

learning, but that you get to

4:47

innovate in that space. Yeah,

4:50

yeah. And I mean, I

4:50

understand, you know, kids that

4:53

are reluctant to come to school.

4:53

I know that when I'm not feeling

4:57

passionate about what I do, or

4:57

things that just say Let me say

5:00

me, I'm not very good either.

5:00

And I need to be engaged and

5:04

passionate about what I'm teaching. Otherwise, what's the point, it's really great to have

5:05

kids at this age, particularly,

5:09

you know, slightly older than

5:09

than primary than our year six

5:12

is, but not quite into the

5:12

secondary school space yet, or

5:15

the high school space yet. And

5:15

so they are really enthusiastic

5:18

or can be really enthusiastic

5:18

about shaping the way that their

5:21

learning is going. And I love

5:21

that because it means that my

5:24

job's not always the same. And

5:24

I'm never sure when I plan how

5:27

it's going to go. So it's always

5:27

interesting and exciting and

5:30

pretty innovative, I'd say,

5:32

Yeah, well, one of

5:32

the interesting things about

5:34

your school and we'll have a

5:34

link to your YouTube page,

5:37

because I know that your

5:37

channel, you know, your your

5:39

score manually, we're

5:39

intermediate, do a lot of work

5:42

on engaging students in some of

5:42

the videos that you create, you

5:44

know, around your assemblies and

5:44

your sports days and things like

5:48

that. I know, You've had some leaders who have really got together and really banded or an

5:50

amazing school culture at your

5:52

school, but one of the one of

5:52

the things from somebody looking

5:55

from the outside, and they might think that it's quite a traditionally run school because

5:57

it runs off a high school

5:59

timetable. You know, you have

5:59

bowels, you have students going

6:02

between classes, because you've

6:02

made a conscious decision to

6:05

prepare them for that high

6:05

school space. But then at the

6:08

same time, once you actually look under the surface, particularly with programs like

6:10

yours, you see some real

6:12

innovation happening there. Right?

6:14

Yeah, absolutely. And

6:14

I mean, it's always that

6:16

challenge, isn't it, you know, you got to get the kids to a certain level. So there has to

6:18

be a certain amount of skills

6:21

teaching, but equally, then

6:21

there's got to be a space for

6:23

kids to apply their skills and

6:23

to apply their learning. So

6:26

while you could definitely say

6:26

it's more, it's more traditional

6:29

kind of high school model. And

6:29

it definitely does prepare the

6:32

kids to go to high school,

6:32

there's still a lot of space

6:35

for, for that collaboration. So

6:35

you know, when you look at Steam

6:38

learning, it's about bringing

6:38

the kids bringing all of their

6:41

skills and all of their

6:41

knowledge, their prior

6:43

knowledge, whatever that might

6:43

be into the space to create

6:46

something to address a problem

6:46

or an issue, or answer a design

6:50

brief. And so yeah, I think that

6:50

there's space for for both.

6:54

What's really interesting

6:54

though, is because it is quite

6:57

or can be seen as being quite

6:57

traditional is looking at our

7:01

subjects such as you know,

7:01

numeracy and humanity. So all of

7:04

our literacy, geography history

7:04

is done through humanities are

7:07

using some of the stuff that we

7:07

know about steam and hands on

7:10

learning and integration in

7:10

those subject areas. So what's

7:14

been really interesting is we've

7:14

just had a two week steam fair.

7:17

So we do each term, we do an off

7:17

module fortnight, normally at

7:20

the beginning of the term, or

7:20

around a range of things. And

7:23

this has been steam fair. And

7:23

it's been really, really cool to

7:27

hear the kids and the staff talk

7:27

about how they could potentially

7:31

do so the interest in bringing

7:31

some sort of steam staff into

7:36

more traditional single subject

7:36

areas. And the kids actually, in

7:40

the ones that I've been

7:40

interviewing towards the end of

7:42

the the steam fair fortnight

7:42

talking about how much they

7:47

would really like to practice,

7:47

say, a set of skills, and then

7:50

do something to apply those

7:50

skills, but that would also link

7:53

into other subject areas. So you

7:53

know, you have that kind of

7:56

challenge and that balance, but

7:56

I think you do get a lot of

8:00

opportunity to do other things

8:00

that aren't just your

8:03

traditional kind of high school,

8:03

move to one subject, and then

8:06

the other and, and perhaps

8:06

they're not connected

8:10

necessarily, and I don't speak

8:10

for high schools.

8:13

Yeah. Can you for

8:13

anybody listening? And they're

8:16

hearing us talking about STEAM

8:16

learning? Do you want to just

8:18

define it? What what it means in

8:18

your eyes, like, what is steam

8:21

to you?

8:22

Yeah, definitely. So

8:22

I mean, steam sort of comes on

8:25

the back of STEM as I understand

8:25

it, which was really looking at

8:29

getting kids into subjects such

8:29

as a scientist, so you know,

8:33

becoming a scientist technology,

8:33

so is the tea engineering and

8:37

maths, which had a very, very, I

8:37

guess, sciency more analytical,

8:42

yes side to it. And then steam

8:42

is bringing in the arts. So

8:46

you're not just looking at

8:46

visual art, you're looking at

8:49

bringing in a whole range of, of

8:49

arts. So you're looking at, you

8:54

know, dance, drama, music, all

8:54

of those elements plus also

8:57

culture. So for me, looking at

8:57

what, where I am that the place

9:01

that I am in on the planet, and

9:01

also where a lot of our kids

9:05

come from. Linking with culture

9:05

is really, really important.

9:09

It's, you know, kind of how we,

9:09

how we're human and how we

9:13

linked together. And I think

9:13

those art subjects are

9:15

incredibly important. So really,

9:15

when you look at it, the acronym

9:19

steam looks at bringing all of

9:19

those subject areas together. So

9:23

it's pretty much every subject,

9:23

I feel every subject that you

9:26

cover in school,

9:27

I was gonna ask,

9:27

What do you think the

9:29

differences between integrated

9:29

learning and steam then because

9:32

it sounds very much, you know,

9:32

when I first started teaching, a

9:35

lot of the teachers that I was

9:35

around had been involved for a

9:37

long time, and we started talking about integrated learning, and I was saying, Oh,

9:39

we were doing that in the 70s and 80s. Yeah, well, firstly, I

9:40

was like, I don't even think I was born then. You know, but

9:42

it's been around for a while,

9:45

hasn't it? You know, I'm gonna

9:45

show butterflies and we'll do

9:48

butterflies through maths. And

9:48

we'll get through science and

9:51

we'll we know it'll be a

9:51

thematic kind of approach. A lot

9:53

of schools do that. Yeah. It was

9:53

steamed different to that.

9:56

Yeah. So and actually, I'm going to show my age because that's how I learned

9:58

to teach To start with, and

10:00

actually when I was exploring

10:00

this, I was like, I don't even

10:03

understand why this is the

10:03

thing. Why does this have to be

10:06

a thing? Isn't this just

10:06

integration? And so I think

10:09

there's probably a few different

10:09

answers to this question. And

10:12

I'm not even sure whether these

10:12

bits of answers are going to

10:15

answer the question. So please

10:15

redirect me. But I think when

10:18

you do a project involving

10:18

steam, a steam project, it's

10:22

never going to equally address

10:22

all of the elements of the

10:25

curriculum. So I'm just thinking

10:25

about some of the projects and

10:28

the the things that the kids

10:28

have been doing here for our

10:31

steam fair. And you often find

10:31

that they're weighted in more

10:34

more of maybe two or three

10:34

subjects rather than the others

10:37

or elements of steam. And so I

10:37

think we've integrated learning,

10:41

you take what applies, but

10:41

you're trying to integrate every

10:43

curriculum area into it, and

10:43

some of them don't naturally

10:46

particularly fit, you know, it's

10:46

a bit of a false connection. So

10:50

I think it releases you from

10:50

from perhaps that too, there's

10:54

also different ways that you can

10:54

integrate programs. So looking

10:59

at whether it's teacher led, or

10:59

student directed, or a blend of

11:02

both of those. And so I think

11:02

probably through Steam, it seems

11:07

to me through Steam, it's easier

11:07

to look at something an issue or

11:11

problem or something that you

11:11

want to create from a variety of

11:15

different angles. Whereas for me

11:15

when I was looking at integrated

11:19

learning, and when I learned how

11:19

to teach, it always seemed to

11:22

come from one particular

11:22

paradigm. And I'm probably sure

11:25

that you've got loads of listeners that would go hang on a minute and, and argue the

11:27

point. But yeah, that's sort of

11:30

my thoughts.

11:31

Yeah, with your

11:31

program being around

11:34

sustainability. And I know that

11:34

that's a real passion of yours.

11:37

That's where that element of the

11:37

problem solving approach comes

11:40

in as well, isn't it it's not

11:40

just coming at the curriculum

11:42

from lots of different angles

11:42

it's doing through, it's doing

11:45

it through the paradigm of a

11:45

problem and a solution. But

11:48

you've got that tell us about

11:48

the sustainable element, because

11:51

a lot of people I talked to, who

11:51

are developing steam learning in

11:54

the school don't often have that

11:54

as a major focus in this school.

11:57

And I've, I've loved you

11:57

explaining this, you know, and

12:01

why that's a passion of yours particularly.

12:02

Yeah, I'll try and do

12:02

it justice, I guess it's a

12:05

passion of mine. Because I feel

12:05

as though that if we're not

12:10

understanding that we are all

12:10

connected, and that everything

12:13

we do as a species has an

12:13

impact, whether it's positive,

12:17

negative, neutral, or a mixture.

12:17

And if we're not understanding

12:22

that, yeah, that we are a part

12:22

of our environment, then I think

12:26

that we're possibly potentially

12:26

doomed. And I feel that

12:31

everything we're teaching needs

12:31

to have come through that sort

12:36

of a lens. So we're looking at

12:36

systems thinking, we're looking

12:40

at bringing people together

12:40

rather than fragmenting. Um,

12:43

there's a lot of stuff going on,

12:43

that's out there, that's quite

12:47

worrying. And a lot of it's

12:47

quite fracturing, you know,

12:49

community society. And I just

12:49

think that we need to look how

12:54

to work together more to solve

12:54

some of these issues that we're

12:57

facing. And so I mean, there's

12:57

another layer, and that then

13:00

isn't there, you're looking at

13:00

character, character

13:02

development, being secure in who

13:02

you are, you know, that the

13:05

issues with anxiety, and all of

13:05

that sort of stuff, all of this

13:08

bears apart, and plays a part.

13:08

So I think that's probably some

13:12

of my rationale, there's a lot

13:12

more that I could talk about,

13:16

around why sustainability is

13:16

important. And I mean, it should

13:19

really be something that flows

13:19

through everything we do. But I

13:22

found that a lot of the kids

13:22

don't really seem to have that

13:26

understanding of connection,

13:26

that we are all connected, and

13:29

we are very deeply firmly

13:29

connected to our environment,

13:32

and whatever happens in our

13:32

environment is going to affect

13:35

us and vice versa. And we can't

13:35

do anything about that

13:38

on a lighter,

13:38

human, relatable Connell level

13:42

for all of the even just for the

13:42

students in your classrooms, to

13:45

know that they're connected with

13:45

the other people in their rooms,

13:47

just through social media or,

13:47

you know, things that they do,

13:51

you know, posting on Instagram

13:51

you to hear from teachers all

13:54

the time on a Monday saying that

13:54

most of Monday is spent

13:56

unwrapping all of the damage

13:56

that was done on social media

13:58

through the weekend. Yeah, just

13:58

on that particular level, not

14:01

even looking at the

14:01

environmental impact. Just

14:04

looking at the social impact. We

14:04

are all connected now. Everybody

14:07

in our communities are

14:07

connected, you know, locally and

14:11

globally. So that kind of

14:11

understanding is so

14:13

multifaceted. What does that

14:13

look like in your program? So

14:17

walk us through, you know, from

14:17

the beginning of when your

14:20

students arrive to your class

14:20

and your program. And I know

14:22

that you don't have the same students throughout the whole year. So it might be quite good

14:24

to give people an understanding

14:26

of that. What is the sustainable

14:26

program look like from beginning

14:29

to end? And how do you roll that

14:29

out with him?

14:32

Okay, so it's so you

14:32

have to understand that this has

14:35

gone through a lot of

14:35

iterations. Yeah, it's an

14:37

innovative process, right? It is

14:37

totally, and pretty much at the

14:40

end of every term, actually,

14:40

after every lesson, I reflect on

14:43

what I've done, change it and

14:43

try new things for the following

14:46

lessons at the end of every

14:46

term. I tend to come up with a

14:49

new way of looking at things and

14:49

a new way of scaffolding. So a

14:51

lot of it's around scaffolding.

14:51

And so, there are themes that

14:55

run all of the way through.

14:55

We've been looking a little bit

14:57

at recall recently and looking

14:57

At the link that the kids have

15:01

between the initial sort of

15:01

theoretical learning and then

15:04

moving into the practical

15:04

project. And do they actually at

15:07

the end, remember why they were

15:07

doing it in the first place. So

15:09

there have been some things I've learned around that. But basically, they come in, I have

15:11

them for it's eight weeks

15:15

maximum, and I have them for a

15:15

double period. So I don't think

15:18

it's ever been that I've had

15:18

them for the entire 16 hours. So

15:21

you're probably looking at

15:21

somewhere between 12 and 14

15:24

hours that I have them for. So

15:24

we start off by looking at what

15:27

sustainability is, what is it?

15:27

Why does it matter? Why do we

15:30

care, and I take them through a

15:30

series of games and puzzles,

15:34

talk that show them that things

15:34

are connected, talk about the

15:37

four pillars of sustainability,

15:37

and why that matters to us. And

15:41

then we go out and do some work

15:41

in our school environment. So

15:43

for example, we'll go and look

15:43

at the animals and how they

15:46

relate to the four pillars of

15:46

sustainability, which we look at

15:49

as being a society, culture,

15:49

economy and the environment, and

15:54

the fact that that everything is

15:54

actually interlinked. So when

15:57

you're looking at, you know, if

15:57

you're having a conversation

16:00

about animals, and you're having

16:00

a conversation about, say,

16:04

cultures, have different

16:04

cultures interact with animals,

16:07

then often you've got a

16:07

conversation around economy as

16:09

well, you know, how animals are

16:09

moved around, which will then

16:12

you lead you to into the

16:12

environmental world? Is it all

16:14

humane? What about pest animals,

16:14

etc, etc, etc. So you start

16:18

opening up a conversation, and

16:18

that's really all the first

16:22

couple of lessons are around

16:22

opening up conversation, making

16:25

sure that nobody everybody knows

16:25

that there's no right answer,

16:28

there's no wrong answer. And

16:28

even your most weird, crazy idea

16:32

just might work. And that

16:32

sharing ideas are really good.

16:35

Because often, we don't make

16:35

decisions on our own. If you're

16:39

thinking about solving a problem

16:39

in your life, you're probably

16:41

going to include other people in

16:41

that discussion. And often

16:45

someone will come up with

16:45

something that you go, Oh,

16:47

that's a brilliant idea. I'm

16:47

gonna use that or modify that.

16:50

So it's all about sharing. And

16:50

then we go into systems

16:54

thinking. So we're all part of a

16:54

system, what are different

16:57

systems? How do they work linear

16:57

systems, cyclical systems,

17:00

closing the loop. So again,

17:00

adding into that conversation

17:03

around sustainability, and then

17:03

I'll take them into a design

17:07

brief. So I'll usually pose a

17:07

problem to them. This is if they

17:12

have an understanding of steam,

17:12

if they don't, I'll go through

17:15

the design, what the design

17:15

process looks like, alongside a

17:18

steam activity, just so that

17:18

they understand the process that

17:22

they're going to follow. And

17:22

then we introduce the design

17:25

brief. So for example, this

17:25

term, it's all around for my

17:28

classes, this term, it's all

17:28

around looking at animals. So

17:32

animal husbandry, how we treat

17:32

animals, how we care for

17:35

animals, what do we do with

17:35

animals that are stray or not

17:38

wanted anymore? Can we come up

17:38

with some some action that we

17:42

could do around that? Is there a

17:42

service that we could provide?

17:46

Or is it about looking at our

17:46

animal, the animals in our

17:49

school and addressing their

17:49

welfare in some way, so we're

17:52

looking at animal husbandry, all

17:52

of the things around why it's

17:55

important to us, so then they

17:55

are able to go and choose

17:58

whether or not they'd like to do

17:58

some sort of an action. So I'm

18:03

looking at, you know, efficacy,

18:03

and all of that sort of stuff,

18:05

and having a voice within the

18:05

commute community. So we're

18:08

looking at society, whether it's

18:08

something cultural, some

18:10

practice that they'd like to

18:10

change, or that they think

18:12

everyone should know about, then

18:12

we're looking at the

18:15

environment. So with that,

18:15

specifically, the environment

18:18

that our animals that are

18:18

captive are in. So whether it's

18:22

your pet in the back garden, or

18:22

it's our school pigs, or goats

18:26

or chickens, or whatever that

18:26

might be and then of course,

18:29

there's the your economics so

18:29

angles, so you know, you could

18:32

perhaps use something making use

18:32

discarded leather leather that's

18:36

going to be thrown away

18:36

something like that. What are

18:39

animal products? Or what is the

18:39

value of enhancing the way that

18:44

our animals live in captivity?

18:44

And what what's the value of

18:47

enhancing them for us? So you

18:47

know, obviously, healthier meat,

18:50

less pollution, all of that sort

18:50

of stuff, more relaxed animals?

18:54

Yeah. And so they're always

18:54

required to go and make a

18:57

prototype. So they have to

18:57

design that they go follow the

19:00

design process to do that. And

19:00

it's linked, I'm trialing this

19:05

term linking it a lot more

19:05

closely to culture through

19:07

stories, and particularly

19:07

playspace. Project base. So

19:10

what's in our local area? What

19:10

are the stories around our local

19:13

area, and looking at us being

19:13

the concept of Kaitiaki, Tonga,

19:18

and so us, but us having to be

19:18

kaitiaki for some of the animals

19:22

that were used to be kaitiaki

19:22

for the land, and for us,

19:26

you will need to

19:26

explain what that means for for

19:28

guardianship. Sorry,

19:28

yes, xiety and ships. So the

19:31

idea that, you know, we used to

19:31

have animals that looked after

19:34

us looked after our place, but

19:34

actually, there are examples now

19:37

of times where we need to look

19:37

after those animals to be able

19:41

to look after us. So you know,

19:41

there's a story of okay, the

19:43

dolphin, for example, and I'm

19:43

sure quite a lot of your

19:46

listeners would probably be familiar with that.

19:48

Yeah. So So in

19:48

terms of the teaching input that

19:51

goes into managing that

19:51

sustained, doesn't sound like an

19:54

easy process and for a lot of us

19:54

who are in the classroom, and

19:57

we're running an English reading

19:57

right? Doing science or we might

20:01

be a science specific teacher in

20:01

a high school. We don't

20:04

obviously have a steam

20:04

sustainable program that we're

20:07

guiding students through a

20:07

design thinking process. Why

20:09

should I as a teacher, why

20:09

should I care? What what's the

20:12

impact on the students? That's

20:12

the first question. Well, I've

20:15

got two, two main push backs

20:15

that I often hear from us. I

20:18

want to hear from you. What,

20:18

why? Why would firstly, why

20:21

would a teacher want to jump

20:21

into this type of design,

20:24

thinking steam, sustainable

20:24

practice kind of program?

20:27

There's a few

20:27

reasons. One, I'd say probably

20:29

for all all teachers is the

20:29

engagement of kids. And

20:33

generally, I found and actually,

20:33

it's been interesting, I've been

20:36

doing, I've been interviewing

20:36

kids as a result of our steam

20:39

fair. So students and teachers

20:39

just gathering some data. And

20:43

their conversation was really,

20:43

really interesting. So all of

20:47

them said that they had found

20:47

this to be one of the most

20:50

engaging fortnight's that

20:50

they've had, that they loved the

20:52

collaboration, they loved that

20:52

they could collect so much, so

20:56

many different ideas from a lot

20:56

of their friends, and that they

20:59

could distill it problem solve,

20:59

you know, that the whole

21:03

critical thinking, the pros and

21:03

cons, etc, to come up with

21:05

something that they were going

21:05

to try. They loved the fact that

21:08

they didn't have to be right.

21:08

And that making mistakes

21:11

actually gave them a better

21:11

final product, because that's

21:14

where you learn the most. So

21:14

looking at that the test, you

21:17

know, the the, the ideate,

21:17

prototype, test, assess, and

21:21

then go back gave them a lot of

21:21

freedom. They also really,

21:24

really enjoyed the share at that

21:24

sharing of knowledge and being

21:28

able to use other people's

21:28

ideas, but in the modification

21:31

process. Now you could say,

21:31

Yeah, but I run a really good

21:35

lesson. And my kids are really

21:35

engaged anyway, and they

21:37

collaborate. And I'm sure that

21:37

you're probably right. And I

21:41

know that they do in my in my

21:41

room. But it's just been

21:45

interesting that the kind of the

21:45

jump in, in engagement, and also

21:50

from teachers that don't like

21:50

say, you've got a maths teacher,

21:53

and they've been with their foreign class, and they've been doing a whole range of other

21:55

subjects, the kids are gone, oh,

21:58

they don't just know about

21:58

maths. It's not just that their

22:00

maths teacher, that's not just

22:00

where maths sits. And so I think

22:03

by by, you know, teaching this

22:03

kids some skills, say that

22:07

things you have to cover, and

22:07

then giving them a project to be

22:11

able to consolidate that

22:11

learning because I think when

22:14

they do and apply, especially if

22:14

it's a hands on thing and making

22:19

thing that that goes in a lot

22:19

easier, I think also it helps

22:23

with recall, because they have

22:23

to then apply their knowledge to

22:26

produce something. It's so I

22:26

mean, those two things have been

22:29

huge, the conversation has been

22:29

a lot more varied. So I think

22:35

that that's been really cool.

22:35

And I think that kids, you know,

22:39

in life, we don't ever use just

22:39

one thing, we bring all of our

22:42

knowledge, our prior

22:42

understanding and our skills to

22:45

anything we try and solve, you

22:45

know, situation and issue,

22:48

whatever that might be. And so I

22:48

think it begins to give kids

22:52

that idea that actually, this is

22:52

real learning, and the other

22:56

bonuses, you can bring it into

22:56

something that actually can make

23:00

a difference to someone or

23:00

something. Yeah, I mean, one of

23:03

the examples I was giving to the

23:03

kids today was you know, you

23:06

bring all of your experience.

23:06

And then when you find that you

23:09

don't have a piece of knowledge,

23:09

that's when you go and find it.

23:12

So for example, let's say you're

23:12

making planter boxes, you've

23:16

created your planter box, but

23:16

you want to know how much soil

23:18

goes in it. And even then area

23:18

but you haven't learned volume,

23:22

what is it that you're going to

23:22

need to go and learn next volume

23:25

is brilliant. How are you going

23:25

to do that? We could ask our

23:27

maths teacher, we could look it

23:27

up on YouTube, we could ask our

23:30

friends, you know, so there's a

23:30

lot of different stuff that

23:33

comes into this. Yeah,

23:35

I think one of the

23:35

one of the other key pushback

23:37

that we often hear from teachers

23:37

is that I don't have enough time

23:40

for this. And I've also got some

23:40

assessment that I need to be

23:42

able to do. Yeah, you know, so

23:42

those are the requirements from

23:46

a student point of view, like

23:46

what you're talking about, as is

23:50

exactly at, it's the fact that,

23:50

you know, I don't need to be

23:53

doing something just so that I

23:53

can get an assessment at the

23:56

end, essentially about

23:56

discovering solutions to

23:58

problems and it's okay to be

23:58

wrong. You know, it's not about

24:01

me impressing the teacher with a

24:01

set of knowledge, it's about me

24:04

finding a solution. So that

24:04

becomes the focus too many of

24:07

our kids have kind of like

24:07

gamified, the education system,

24:09

haven't they? Because it's all

24:09

about, you know, what do I need

24:11

to do to get the credit mess,

24:11

you know, I'm sitting back on

24:15

what I'm doing, because I don't

24:15

need to because they've already

24:17

passed that credit or that grade

24:17

or whatever that's coming up.

24:20

It's a completely different

24:20

approach. They almost forget

24:22

that they're learning. And that's what we want. We want students to become a school, so

24:24

engaged and so enthusiastic

24:28

about what they're doing,

24:28

because they feel like they're

24:30

making a difference. The trick

24:30

is, though, and I'm keen to

24:35

understand what what your

24:35

thoughts on this are? How do we

24:38

as teachers who are in maybe a

24:38

siloed classroom, where we're

24:42

teaching science, and you're

24:42

having these conversations with

24:45

the teachers at your school, because not all your teachers are in the sustainable

24:47

Enterprise Program? How do you

24:50

as a teacher, do that? How do

24:50

you integrate steam into your

24:52

classroom in a way that enhances

24:52

and capturing captures all the

24:56

good things about that program

24:56

while delivering the curriculum?

25:00

and still hitting my assessment points.

25:02

So I'll give you an

25:02

example of a conversation I've

25:04

just had with a teacher. But I

25:04

also need to offer a little i.

25:07

So I'm lucky in that I don't

25:07

have quite the same hoops to

25:12

jump through if I can like that,

25:12

in terms of assessment, as a lot

25:16

of other teachers do. But so so

25:16

that's one thing from me. But I

25:20

do still have to assess them.

25:20

And at the moment, I'm playing

25:22

with ways to do this. But one of

25:22

an interesting conversation I

25:25

just had with someone was I'm

25:25

looking at New Zealand histories

25:28

and using steam within the New

25:28

Zealand histories program. And

25:32

so we were talking about, in

25:32

fact, this two conversations

25:35

I've had, but this one we were

25:35

talking about, Well, how could

25:37

that look because you need to

25:37

depending on what your focus is,

25:41

you need to assess where they're

25:41

at or what they're producing. So

25:45

we were talking about the fact

25:45

that they wanted to explore

25:47

different paths, sites. And so I

25:47

mean, for me, there's a huge

25:51

range of ways that you could

25:51

explore that and build them I

25:54

mean, online, if you for

25:54

example, Minecraft, you can, you

25:57

know, build a pass site, you can

25:57

go and do virtual tours and look

26:01

round pass sites, you can ask to

26:01

get beat GPT to give you a whole

26:05

load of information about past

26:05

sites that you then have to go

26:08

and cross reference to make sure

26:08

it's okay, because sometimes it

26:10

can be a bit Wikipedia.

26:12

I find like my one

26:12

of my role is interpreting

26:14

mighty language. So apart for

26:14

people who might not have heard

26:17

is mighty as a Maori for

26:17

fortification, yes, historically

26:20

used, you know, back in pre

26:20

European days, but also in

26:23

clinical times as well. So yeah,

26:25

so in order to make

26:25

let's say that your steam

26:27

activity is going to make a to

26:27

be making a reproduction of a

26:31

past site, or however you're

26:31

going to do that, whether it's

26:33

you know, 3d modeling, or hands

26:33

on physical modeling, or you're

26:36

using a program or whatever, you

26:36

have to know a lot about a past

26:41

site to be able to build it. So

26:41

for me, it's like, well, what

26:46

are you trying to assess here?

26:46

What do you want to? Are you

26:49

trying to assess the kids story

26:49

writing ability? Or are you

26:51

trying to assess what knowledge

26:51

they've picked up about how

26:56

Maori people used to use a past

26:56

site, for example, this is

26:59

probably a terrible example. But

26:59

yeah, if you're going to then be

27:02

a kid, and you're building one,

27:02

you're going to present it in

27:05

some way, you're going to have

27:05

to be able to explain what all

27:09

of these parts are, how they fit

27:09

together. So I think it's about

27:12

knowing what it is that you want

27:12

to assess. And then just coming

27:15

up with a creative coming up,

27:15

not just coming up with a

27:18

creative way to do it. So yeah,

27:18

another example could be um,

27:21

alright, let's say we're doing

27:21

measurements. And actually, I

27:24

did this with a group of kids,

27:24

um, a boomerang back to the

27:27

school. So I did this with a

27:27

group of kids when I was here

27:29

the first time. And I was given

27:29

a group of kids that were really

27:33

challenged in math. So I think

27:33

when I got them, they couldn't

27:36

tell me how many centimeters

27:36

were in a meter, kind of that

27:39

level maths. And so we did some

27:39

some skills lessons, which I

27:45

think probably had the same

27:45

impact as their teacher had

27:47

done. So not much. And then we

27:47

went outside, and we I was given

27:50

a grass area. And the brief was

27:50

to change this into our garden

27:55

beds. And so you know, you

27:55

talked through what a garden bed

27:58

has to be, how wide it has to

27:58

be, do you want to pick things

28:00

you want people walking through

28:00

the middle? How many can we fit

28:03

into this space, and then we

28:03

built them. And by the end of

28:06

that project, I had those same

28:06

kids adding and subtracting and

28:11

decimals. And you wouldn't have

28:11

time to do that, as a math

28:13

teacher, you know, again, times

28:13

a thing, probably taking your

28:16

whole class out, or three

28:16

classes that you have however

28:18

many to go and do that sort of

28:18

thing might be a bit of a

28:20

mission, there are other

28:20

activities you can do that are

28:23

smaller, and that take less time

28:23

or are more contained, that you

28:28

could use, I mean, steam

28:28

activities can be an hour long,

28:32

they can be you know, a day

28:32

long, a week long, and a term

28:35

long. So it just depends on the

28:35

time that you've got. And I

28:38

think it's just about, it's just

28:38

about a different perspective on

28:42

things. But yes, it's more work.

28:42

It's definitely more work in the

28:46

planning stage. Definitely. For

28:46

me, I've known I've noticed that

28:50

I've put a lot more into my

28:50

planning and my scaffolding. But

28:54

then once you're in there, and

28:54

once they get it and get the

28:58

process they have to follow,

28:58

they actually fly and it creates

29:02

so much more independence, I

29:02

think, and more collaboration,

29:07

that I find that I am definitely

29:07

much I'm able to be much more of

29:10

a facilitator that they can use

29:10

me as a resource rather than I'm

29:15

the teacher, and I'm telling you

29:15

what to do. And a lot of the

29:17

kids that come to me do have

29:17

that? Well, I don't know, well,

29:20

what should I do now? Well, why

29:20

aren't you telling me and all

29:22

I'm doing is asking them

29:22

questions? Yeah, yeah, there's a

29:25

lot more thinking you have to do in here.

29:27

100%. And I think

29:27

there's two things that you've

29:30

heard on that one is, you know,

29:30

as teachers, we're often tasked

29:33

with a curriculum, which is

29:33

usually based around some

29:36

understandings or some big ideas

29:36

or some skills. And so that can

29:40

tend to be our focus. So we will

29:40

structure the learning that will

29:43

give you the knowledge or give

29:43

you the understanding or give

29:46

you the skill to be able to do

29:46

something but what we fail to

29:48

recognize and sometimes it's

29:48

time or sometimes that's you

29:51

know, just because it's hard and

29:51

we have to kind of get into that

29:54

facilitator mode as opposed to

29:54

the teacher mode, which

29:57

sometimes can be about me just

29:57

giving you the information.

30:00

Whatever it is I need to do. But

30:00

often we forget that the best

30:02

way to understand or to actually

30:02

make the learning sticky for

30:06

understandings, knowledge

30:06

skills, that type of thing is

30:09

actually the application. Yeah.

30:09

And so like I remember, you

30:12

know, you'd be in writing, and

30:12

you'd sort of, you know, when I

30:14

was teaching English in primary

30:14

school, you'd be teaching an

30:17

essay approach. So you want

30:17

these kids to be able to

30:19

understand what it is to

30:19

construct an essay. And so you

30:23

teach them how to write an

30:23

essay, or a letter or formal

30:25

writing that type of thing. And

30:25

then you go, right, we need to

30:28

come up with some kind of a process, what are we going to, you know, we need to have an

30:29

authentic sort of, so I'll get

30:32

them to, you know, write a

30:32

letter to the principal about,

30:34

you know, we want to have a

30:34

Mufti day or something like

30:37

that. So you'll kind of do it in

30:37

a slightly contrived way. And I

30:40

think I think a lot of us are

30:40

realizing is there's a real

30:43

opportunity here to make

30:43

learning authentic, right, from

30:46

the very start, don't take it on

30:46

at the end. So if you're a

30:50

writing teacher, and you're

30:50

focusing on writing, give them a

30:52

sticky question or a problem to

30:52

solve at the very start, wrap

30:56

that meaningful enterprise

30:56

approach where you're thinking

30:59

about the systems and the stuff,

30:59

you know, and the problem

31:02

solving approach it actually

31:02

have that as part of the core

31:05

core function right from the

31:05

very start to the very end, and

31:07

you've got the luxury in that

31:07

sustainable enterprise class to

31:11

do that. But it sounds like

31:11

you're having lots of those

31:13

conversations with the

31:13

curriculum based teachers in

31:16

your school as well. Right? Yeah,

31:18

it is a huge shift.

31:18

You know, it's a definitely a

31:21

mindset shift. And easy, it's

31:21

easier for some and less easy

31:25

for others. And it's exactly

31:25

like the kids in class, it's

31:27

about scaffolding people into

31:27

it, you know, and through it.

31:30

And actually, can I give you a

31:30

real quick, quick aside, if you

31:33

want to, if you want to be less

31:33

scared about not quite having

31:38

control over where things might

31:38

go, try, try doing an experiment

31:44

with a couple of your classes,

31:44

and just see how much control

31:47

you can take away. So for

31:47

example, I did it with a cooking

31:51

a couple of cooking classes, we

31:51

did, all we did was make, I gave

31:54

them some ingredients. And I had

31:54

some recipe cards, one with all

31:57

the instructions and a title and

31:57

the picture, one with just the

32:00

ingredients, and the

32:00

instructions, but no title and

32:02

no picture, and then one with

32:02

just the ingredients. And I

32:06

asked the kids where they wanted

32:06

to start. So I try a child this

32:09

first to see how it will go. And

32:09

then so the idea is it's about

32:12

locus of control. So the more

32:12

control you give them, and the

32:15

less help you give them, the

32:15

more control the kids have. And

32:18

my idea was to do that and see

32:18

when it falls apart. So it was

32:21

really stepping back and going,

32:21

this is going to fall apart at

32:25

some point. And Won't it be

32:25

interesting to find out where it

32:28

does. And I was amazed at how

32:28

much resourcefulness and

32:32

resilience was that the kids

32:32

had? How much they talk to each

32:35

other? Because I'm just like, I

32:35

don't know, I don't know, do

32:38

you? Do you feel like you want

32:38

the next card yet? So I gave

32:41

them all the hardest one. And it

32:41

was like, if you really can't do

32:44

this, I'll give you the next

32:44

one. But are you sure you need

32:46

it, you know, got looking at

32:46

each other, all of those things

32:49

that we want them to do, you

32:49

know, 21st century learning

32:53

skills, all of those skills that

32:53

we bring into steam, they were

32:56

doing that. And for me, it was

32:56

so liberating, because it was

33:00

like, Okay, I'm expecting total

33:00

chaos. And it wasn't as bad as I

33:03

thought. So yeah, if you want a

33:03

bit of a lesson in letting go,

33:07

try that.

33:08

So good. It's

33:08

something that I'm sure a lot of

33:11

teachers, you know, you're

33:11

talking about lifting the

33:14

engagement of teachers,

33:14

sometimes just being able to,

33:17

you know, go over the cliff with

33:17

a with a carabiner attached, but

33:21

you've got the rope, just take

33:21

your hands off the rope for a

33:23

second and see what happens, you

33:23

know, like you want to talk

33:25

about engaging people, that

33:25

would be one way to go about it.

33:27

Oh, and actually the kids, when you say that you're doing some experiments to you

33:29

know, help me be better at

33:33

teaching you particularly the

33:33

subject, whatever, they actually

33:36

give you quite a lot of leeway.

33:36

And, like good feedback to let

33:39

RMSE shouldn't have done that that was one step.

33:42

Well, let's putting yourself in the role of a learner and you're doing it

33:44

visibly, you're modeling what

33:46

that looks like, I've always

33:46

loved that approach, you know,

33:49

doing the thing. Callouts? Yeah.

33:49

So I've been doing this when

33:53

I've been working as an

33:53

instructional coach in schools

33:55

around digital fluency for a

33:55

long, long time, encouraging

33:58

teachers to make the shift from

33:58

being a teacher expert to a

34:01

teacher learner. Because when

34:01

you're getting into the digital

34:04

space, particularly or there are

34:04

some tools that you have to get

34:06

across and, and you find

34:06

yourself that in a space where

34:10

the students actually know more

34:10

about how to use this tool, or

34:12

they pick it up quicker than

34:12

you, you have to make that

34:14

shift. You know, you can't be

34:14

the expert and everything. And I

34:17

think that's what's holding a

34:17

lot of us back in the teaching

34:19

space from using a lot of these

34:19

tools, particularly around the

34:22

AI. Yeah, there's a bit of a

34:22

fear factor about that. So if

34:25

you can be okay with being not

34:25

okay, not knowing all the

34:29

answers, then I think that's a

34:29

real key part of it. Tell us

34:32

about one of the roles that you

34:32

know, some of the digital tools

34:35

that you're using in that in

34:35

that steam program that you're

34:38

running plays, because it's one

34:38

of the things that I think makes

34:41

steam really come alive. You

34:41

know, if we're thinking back to

34:44

the 70s and 80s, you were kind

34:44

of going through a design

34:47

thinking process pretty much at

34:47

the beck and call of the

34:50

information you had in the

34:50

library, and the knowledge of

34:52

the teacher who was in front of

34:52

you, but now we've got this

34:55

lever that technology gives us

34:55

to really be able to engage

34:58

students and real authors took

34:58

design thinking processes, what

35:02

are some of the digital tools

35:02

that that are really important

35:05

in your class? And how are students using them?

35:06

I think it's really

35:06

important. And I think that

35:09

using the word tool is perfect

35:09

because it is a tool. And so

35:13

yeah, so that's how we use it. I

35:13

also have to say that I'm

35:16

possibly slightly

35:16

technologically challenged. I've

35:18

learned a lot in the last few

35:18

years. But I'm always in that

35:21

position where the kids know

35:21

more than me, and I love

35:24

learning new things. So I'm a

35:24

lifelong learner. You know,

35:26

Curiosity is like my motto. And

35:26

so when a kid does know,

35:30

something I don't I'm like, well

35:30

teach me that. Where did you

35:32

find that? Can you come and give

35:32

me a lesson at lunchtime? Or

35:35

When's good for you know, or

35:35

right now. And so we use it for

35:39

a variety of things. One is

35:39

obviously research. And one of

35:43

my things I say to kids all the

35:43

time is like YouTube's like your

35:46

best mate. If you don't have to

35:46

do something, I bet you any

35:49

money that there will be a

35:49

tutorial on that. And if not,

35:52

you know, you've won yourself

35:52

$1. But there's always a

35:55

tutorial. So we use it for

35:55

research, we started, I started

35:59

using chat GPT with my classes.

35:59

And that was really cool, not

36:05

only because of the information

36:05

that it regurgitates in a very,

36:08

very short space of time, so you

36:08

can get a very good overview of

36:12

something that will direct you

36:12

somewhere else. So for example,

36:15

we've got goats at school, and I

36:15

had a group of kids that knew

36:18

nothing. And actually, we all

36:18

realize we didn't know a huge

36:20

amount about this particular

36:20

types of goats. I've had milking

36:23

goats before, but yeah, not

36:23

these anyway. And so, yeah, 30

36:27

seconds, it gives you a whole

36:27

screen of information. But then

36:30

it's about using, you know,

36:30

being a bit analytical and a bit

36:33

critical about it and saying, Well, just because that's written down, is it true? Is it

36:35

all true when you know, you look

36:38

up on stuff online? No, it's not

36:38

always true. Do we know examples

36:41

of that? Okay, so what I want

36:41

you to do is go and cross check

36:44

this. And so that was a really

36:44

good not only great to produce

36:48

information quickly, but also

36:48

for those literacy, critical

36:51

thinking skills, you can't just

36:51

what give get what you're taking

36:54

on face value. So that was cool.

36:54

And then we use a variety of

36:58

different, and I'm still

36:58

learning heaps about them, but

37:00

design. So you know, you can go

37:00

and design not just using

37:03

Minecraft to design a space or a

37:03

world or a you know, visual of

37:08

what you might have something

37:08

you've designed, but also

37:11

different design platforms. And

37:11

so there's a few that I'm trying

37:14

at the moment. And I've got to

37:14

think about four different ones,

37:17

and I don't have them off the top of my head, but I'm gonna get kids to try them. And I'll

37:19

let you know what we use. And

37:21

it's brilliant, has just started

37:21

using for Go Formative, which is

37:26

a really cool, full assessment

37:26

way of assessing kids. So that's

37:30

something I'm probably going to

37:30

try this term too. And then

37:33

obviously, whatever they

37:33

produce, so we don't all think

37:36

in the same way. And so you

37:36

might get a kid wanting to do a

37:39

video, you might get in them

37:39

want to, you know, do a speech

37:43

or record something from around

37:43

school to add in as examples of

37:47

so recording, writing,

37:47

presenting, assessing all of

37:52

that good stuff. We also, you

37:52

know, do online. And though we

37:57

always have paper tools, too.

37:57

I'm still a paper user. So you

38:00

know, a lot of brainstorming, things like that will still do on paper, right tool for the

38:02

right job. Right? Exactly. Yeah.

38:05

And then sorry, real quickly,

38:05

there's also things like, for

38:08

example, automating something,

38:08

so maybe you're using a micro

38:12

bit or something like that. And

38:12

so you might add, program that

38:17

and add that into whatever

38:17

project you're making to, to

38:20

automate it.

38:21

So it's the right tool that comes up for the right solution that they're designing.

38:23

It sounds to me like you're just

38:26

using it as it comes along in

38:26

the design process. Rather than

38:30

thinking, Oh, we've got this

38:30

micro bit tool, what kind of

38:32

problems could we shape, you

38:32

know, which, which is one of the

38:35

approaches, and we help schools

38:35

do that all the time. But yeah,

38:38

it's always good to be able to

38:38

hear about people who are doing

38:40

it the other way around where

38:40

you're drawing on the tool as

38:42

needed.

38:43

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I

38:43

have planned in to use some

38:46

tools for a variety of things,

38:46

but then it's also about knowing

38:49

your classes. So you know, for

38:49

example, walking around at the

38:52

beginning, listening to

38:52

conversations going, Ah, you

38:54

know, how to code. Brilliant,

38:54

and I make sure I know about

38:57

you, because this could be

38:57

useful. And I might, I might

39:00

suggest you go down that path.

39:00

Often they go no actually want

39:03

to really do this, but that's

39:03

all good. And you know, so often

39:06

they'll come they'll come up

39:06

with things to or, or say to me,

39:10

Hey, I've used this at home. Can

39:10

we link up with a high school?

39:13

And can we go in, I'm used their

39:13

laser printer, and this is the

39:16

program that I use to design

39:16

this. This is what I've done or

39:18

what I want to do. Can I do

39:18

that? Can we got to the high

39:21

school because we don't have a laser here.

39:23

That's super cool.

39:23

So So thinking about all of the

39:26

different people who might be listening, whether they're teaching junior students or all

39:28

the way up to high school, what

39:31

would be one of the key things

39:31

you're you would recommend to

39:34

them whenever you're talking to

39:34

teachers who are you know,

39:36

you've got a mainstream class,

39:36

you're you might be teaching

39:39

everything in the curriculum, or

39:39

you might be a specific content

39:43

teacher. So you might be a science teacher, a maths teacher, a physics teacher or

39:45

whatever. What would be one of

39:47

the things that you could

39:47

encourage people to do to start

39:51

integrating some steam learning

39:51

into into what they're doing in

39:54

the classroom.

39:54

Do you know I reckon,

39:54

probably, if you've never done

39:57

anything before, I recommend

39:57

just do Take a one hour one off

40:02

steam lesson that doesn't

40:02

require a huge amount of

40:05

resources and pose it as a

40:05

challenge, you know, a problem.

40:09

So for example, the one that I

40:09

did as an introduction, last

40:12

term was, we are all this whole

40:12

class, we are all we were living

40:17

many, many, many, many years

40:17

ago, nobody else is in this

40:20

country, it's just us, we have

40:20

to collect our own food, we

40:23

haven't actually eaten anything

40:23

for a week, we're on the verge

40:26

of starvation, we can find

40:26

things too, we need to kill an

40:30

animal. So talk about if

40:30

anyone's vegetarian or vegan,

40:32

obviously, don't cover that. We

40:32

want to kill an animal, we have

40:36

to kill a large animal to feed

40:36

us all, we only want to do it

40:39

once. But the problem is that

40:39

this animal, if it spots you, it

40:42

will kill you. There's no

40:42

arguments about whether you

40:45

might survive, it will kill you.

40:45

So you need to come up with what

40:48

and so then we talk about what

40:48

kind of projectile we'll need,

40:51

there's a few rules around it.

40:51

And they have to come up with

40:54

something that will fire a

40:54

bottle top in between the eyes

40:57

of one of the other teachers or

40:57

they have a box. So it's do you

41:00

want a four legged or a two

41:00

legged animal, and that's

41:02

anywhere in the box is a kill

41:02

shot. And we try not to name

41:05

them. So obviously, it has to be

41:05

from a particular distance. So

41:08

you can be hidden, and it has to

41:08

go relatively quickly and

41:11

relatively straight. And that

41:11

took well with all the

41:14

discussion. And then they wanted

41:14

to go back and modify that

41:16

actually was a whole double

41:16

period. But just something like

41:19

that, where you've got a

41:19

challenge. And it's fun. And

41:22

it's fun for you to and it

41:22

doesn't require heaps and heaps

41:25

of resources, they had a set,

41:25

you know, a box of resources,

41:29

and then just talk about it, get

41:29

them to try it, allow them to go

41:33

back and modify. If someone's

41:33

got an amazing design, get them

41:36

to go and show everyone else. It

41:36

takes spies from each group to

41:39

go round and spy on the other

41:39

groups and come back with that

41:42

information. And just make it as

41:42

fun as possible. And that will

41:45

introduce them to the design

41:45

process and steam. And you can

41:49

also talk about what the kids

41:49

have used. So did you use any

41:51

science? Did you use any math?

41:51

Do you think you used any. And

41:55

that will give you an idea as

41:55

well of how familiar they are

41:57

with the elements of steam. So

41:57

it's fun, it's exciting. And if

42:01

kids don't know anything about

42:01

steam, and if you don't know

42:03

that much about STEAM, it's a

42:03

cool way to start. And I

42:06

probably do it with the design

42:06

process as well, because they

42:08

both blow flow really well

42:08

together. Yeah,

42:11

and I remember, you know, I was just thinking, while you're talking about that,

42:13

it's almost like with even just

42:16

an activity like that, or a

42:16

design thinking challenge like

42:18

that you can pull any

42:18

curriculum. Yeah, you know,

42:21

concept or big understanding or

42:21

anything, there's physics

42:23

involved in that, you know, if a

42:23

teaching an English class, then

42:25

you'd be able to do some writing

42:25

about procedural writing or, you

42:29

know, write up a summary of your

42:29

solution, that type of thing,

42:31

there's any way that you could,

42:31

at any different curriculum

42:33

level, you can integrate that

42:33

and I remember we were doing a

42:36

measurement unit was like you

42:36

were saying about meters and

42:38

centimeters, and then down into

42:38

millimeters, we had just half an

42:41

hour to do a Darkthrone

42:41

challenge. And then the students

42:43

had to go away and record in

42:43

meters, centimeters, and

42:46

millimeters, their best throw,

42:46

you know, so it was something

42:48

really, really targeted, really

42:48

into authentic around some kind

42:52

of a challenge. And then we had a little bit of a prize for the person who got it the furthest,

42:54

obviously, because you need to have competition right?

42:57

into their heads.

42:57

They're, you know, they're all

43:00

over it, the kids are all over

43:00

it. So it's a nice place to

43:03

start. It's a fun place to

43:03

start. Or maybe think, well, I

43:06

have to teach the kids this,

43:06

this, this and this, how can I

43:09

get them to illustrate this to

43:09

me in a way that's not sit

43:12

sitting down and writing a test?

43:12

Or, you know, doing an online

43:15

test? How can I get them to

43:15

build something or show me

43:18

something physically that gets

43:18

them to demonstrate their

43:20

learning that steam? You know, I

43:20

think we get a lot really caught

43:23

up in the fact that it's this

43:23

whole new thing. And it's, it's

43:26

really difficult. And we have to

43:26

do all of these different

43:29

things. But actually, that's not

43:29

quite the case.

43:31

Yeah. Does that

43:31

make you kind of make something

43:35

present something then? And then

43:35

show your, your understanding or

43:39

your skill set around that?

43:39

That's fantastic. Thanks so much

43:42

for for sharing that jiving.

43:42

It's fantastic. I'm really

43:44

excited to hear about, you know,

43:44

how your program and your I

43:48

think you're just a whole approach to learning just keeps developing because it sounds

43:50

like you're doing a design thinking process on yourself and

43:52

your own practice, which I think

43:54

is one of the key takeaways of

43:54

this conversation. So thanks.

43:58

Thanks very much for

43:58

having me. I really always

44:01

appreciate the opportunity to

44:01

talk about this stuff. It's

44:03

something I'm passionate about.

44:03

So thank you, Mark, really

44:05

appreciate it.

44:06

That's really cool. Well, we have heaps of links in the in the show notes

44:07

as well, if people want to be

44:10

able to explore some of the things enough and you know, you've got some things online as

44:12

well that you'll be able to

44:15

do that. And I'm always really happy to have a chat with people if they're keen

44:16

to do some steamy stuff,

44:19

so to speak. Very cool.

44:19

Very cool. Thanks. Bye.

44:28

That was a great

44:28

conversation around lots of

44:30

different topics today. So like

44:30

we said, if you're interested in

44:33

any of the links from some of

44:33

the things that we talked about

44:35

lots of resources, lots of

44:35

website links, to be able to go

44:38

there and share with lots of

44:38

other people. Go into our show

44:40

notes. You'll be able to see

44:40

everything there and share them

44:43

away. If you haven't subscribed,

44:43

definitely do that. We'd love to

44:47

be able to reach as many people

44:47

as possible. And that's one way

44:49

that you can get notifications

44:49

of when we publish and Bix I

44:52

think you were going to share

44:52

one little thing to think about

44:55

before we go yeah, I

44:57

think this this AI

44:57

stuff in particular I know is on

45:00

the hot topic for all of you out

45:00

there. I was at a board meeting

45:04

last night that came up at the

45:04

board meeting. It's just It's on

45:08

the tip of everyone's tongue.

45:08

Now we've got trainers who are

45:11

absolutely across everything

45:11

that's coming out, they're

45:14

getting updates, they're getting

45:14

across it straight away. If you

45:17

feel like you need a supporting

45:17

hand through this, even if it is

45:20

around working out how you're

45:20

going to deploy this kind of

45:22

stuff in your school, hit us up

45:22

[email protected]. And we can come and

45:29

have a chat about how we can

45:29

support you and this, you don't

45:32

have to do this on your own. And

45:32

we're seeing what's happening

45:34

across schools in New Zealand,

45:34

Australia and across the world.

45:37

So don't reinvent the wheel.

45:37

We've got this common hex coming

45:40

in ask us for some help.

45:41

Fantastic. Well, I

45:41

think anybody who's got got that

45:44

website, their email address fix

45:44

at UTB dot B said differently,

45:49

give you a call and then we can

45:49

have conversation around that.

45:52

Great to have you on the

45:52

podcast. See on the next one.