0:00

You're

0:00

listening to the Bible for normal people,

0:02

the only God ordained podcast on the

0:04

Internet. I'm Pete Enz. And I'm Jared

0:06

Bias. Hey,

0:10

everybody. Welcome to this episode of the podcast,

0:12

which is a reissue of our interview with

0:15

Emily Townes from way back in November

0:17

of twenty twenty. And it's called

0:19

the Wisdom of Hope, and this episode

0:21

is full of both of those things.

0:23

Enjoy. Today,

0:26

we're talking about the wisdom of Hope, and

0:28

we're talking about that with Emilie Townes, the

0:30

Dean of the divinity school, and distinguished professor

0:33

of women ethics and society at

0:35

Vanderbilt University. Oh, man, folks.

0:37

I'm telling you, this is one of these podcasts

0:40

that started out one thing, and I wind up

0:42

being something very, very different

0:44

and very great and very beautiful where

0:46

we just sort of woven actually,

0:48

Emilie, woven, community, bible,

0:52

love messiness of communities

0:55

and a lot of Wisdom, and it

0:57

was just a great time having

0:59

her talk about this stuff. It was just

1:01

One it's nice when things don't turn out the

1:03

way you plan. Yeah. This is close. I

1:06

think it's exactly right. And it actually fits

1:08

in exactly with some of the themes we talk about. in

1:10

that messiness of community when things don't go

1:12

as planned. Right. Well, let's get

1:14

into it. Let's do that.

1:17

More often than not, we under sell

1:19

the Bible. Mostly out of

1:21

our fear and our doubts. Our

1:24

I don't know. rather

1:27

than taking it as an opportunity to

1:30

dive right in there and try, as

1:32

I say, wrestle with it in

1:35

community, to see what

1:37

we come up with.

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2:43

Emilie,

2:46

welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us. Oh,

2:48

thank you for having me. Yeah. It's great to have

2:50

here Emilie. So let let's just begin by

2:52

defining what womanist

2:55

ethics is. That's gonna be a new

2:57

term for a number of our listeners, and

2:59

it would be really great to just define

3:01

it. And maybe where it came from. Yeah. And work it like

3:03

it's origins and things like that. There

3:05

is somewhat of a debate

3:07

among people who use the phrase womanist

3:10

ethics about what

3:12

it Townes. But for me, I'll

3:14

put it that way. For me, it means being

3:17

concerned about

3:20

issues through the

3:22

lens of gender,

3:25

class, race, ethnicity,

3:28

sexuality, and

3:30

centering black women's thought

3:33

in the midst of that. And by

3:35

that, I mean, what do black

3:37

women think about these things? black

3:40

women who actually may be

3:42

very involved and usually are very

3:45

involved in various

3:47

religious communities. one

3:49

of the reasons the term

3:52

emerged was because in

3:54

the seventies, There was a

3:56

lot of talk about black theology and

3:59

a lot of talk about feminist theology.

4:03

neither one of those theologies really

4:05

took into account the

4:08

religious world views of black

4:10

women. And so black

4:12

women in the seventies, if

4:14

you had any leaning towards liberation,

4:17

ideas, you often

4:19

qualified yourself as being a

4:21

black feminist. While

4:23

Alice Walker, the writer, came

4:25

along, and decided to

4:27

try to develop a

4:30

word that captured

4:33

black women's moral thought.

4:36

black women's ethical thought,

4:38

black women's religious thought

4:40

-- Mhmm. -- and being

4:42

a southerner from Georgia She

4:44

turned to a folk expression

4:47

womanish, and

4:49

that was when you were a little girl

4:51

who often asked questions the adults

4:53

couldn't answer, so you were told

4:56

you were acting grown and being

4:58

grown. And she took

5:00

that term and

5:03

transformed it to a womanist,

5:05

and then came up with a four

5:08

part definition when her editor

5:10

asked her to

5:12

define womanist when she put it

5:14

as the subtitle of her landmark

5:16

book of essays in search of our grandmother's

5:19

gardens, and the is womanist

5:21

prose. The first

5:23

definition is really

5:25

the historical one where it comes

5:27

from the transmission of

5:29

knowledge from older women to

5:31

girls, and the fact that little

5:33

black girls often have to grow up a lot

5:35

faster. because they're living

5:37

in a world that often

5:40

doesn't appear to want them there.

5:42

The second definition is

5:45

more communal. And

5:48

she moves through the ways that

5:50

people are tied to

5:52

whether one another sexually

5:54

and emotionally, either

5:57

other sex or opposite

5:59

sex or same sex.

6:02

and then finishes that second

6:04

definition with a

6:07

nod to the

6:10

underground railroad when

6:12

the speaker says my

6:14

mom gonna take a bunch of folks

6:17

off to freedom and the response of

6:19

the older black woman, the imaginary

6:22

older black woman is, it wouldn't be the first

6:24

time. So a sense of

6:26

communal responsibility and the

6:28

diversity of the community, the

6:30

different shades of darkness

6:33

in black communities. The

6:35

third definition really looks at

6:38

the image of women

6:40

in our society And

6:42

one, the ideal woman, very

6:45

few women I know, could ever look

6:47

that way, black, white, or

6:49

brown, or beige just wouldn't happen.

6:52

But for Walker, she says,

6:54

loves herself regardless.

6:57

And then the fourth definition is

7:01

womanist is to feminist as

7:04

purple is to lavender.

7:07

And that was a critique of

7:10

how feminist thought

7:14

had not really prorated

7:16

the diversity of women within

7:19

it. Be it color, class,

7:22

sexuality, ethnicity,

7:25

It was at that point in

7:27

time in the mid seventies, largely

7:30

a white middle class movement.

7:33

And so she's pushing that Well,

7:36

there were a group of women who

7:38

were students at Union

7:40

Theological Seminary in New York.

7:43

Katie Cannon, Dolores

7:45

Wisdom, and Jacqueline

7:48

Grant. They were all

7:50

working on their PhDs Grant

7:54

and Williams were in theology.

7:57

Canon was in Christian

7:59

ethics. This

8:01

definition came out and

8:04

they were had study groups. They

8:06

were looking at this. and said,

8:08

maybe there's something there for us

8:10

to explore from

8:13

our own vantage point in

8:15

our programs. Womanist

8:17

thought in religion was born.

8:20

It's one of the few times we can say, yep,

8:22

they were in this place doing

8:24

this thing where this idea,

8:26

this movement in religion takes

8:29

off. and the whole

8:31

impetus behind it was

8:34

to get black women's

8:36

religious voice into

8:39

conversations be it in the

8:41

academy or in the

8:43

church or in public.

8:45

But to say these the

8:47

women have been thinking religiously

8:49

for a long time. Black

8:52

women have been thinking religiously for

8:54

a long time. And here's what we

8:56

think. Mhmm. So Wow.

8:58

That's a Yeah. That's extremely helpful.

9:01

Thank you. Yeah. That's great. So

9:03

this, you know, this religious connection

9:06

with womenists theology and

9:08

ethics comes from union. You're

9:10

you're Dean at a divinity school.

9:12

So how does the bible shape or

9:15

get shaped by the work

9:17

that you do in theology and

9:19

in ethics. What does the the

9:21

Bible play in that? Well,

9:23

as an ethicist, I

9:26

use the bible very

9:28

carefully because I

9:31

have been trained to

9:33

literally use the Bible. But

9:35

that does not mean that I'm

9:38

really representing the

9:40

diversity of thought that's in the bible

9:42

is I have a viewpoint. Here's

9:44

a passage. It seems to

9:46

fit. Let me slip it in. and

9:48

I'm off and running. I

9:50

don't like that kind of

9:52

ethical shenanigans for

9:54

lack of a better way to put That's

9:56

a good word. That's alright. So

9:59

for me, I take seriously

10:02

the training I

10:04

got at

10:06

the University of Chicago Dibs

10:08

School, where

10:10

if you're going to preach,

10:12

you need to look at

10:15

folks who've thought about scripture

10:18

and know more about scripture than

10:20

you do. So,

10:22

the biblical scholars And

10:25

further, you don't read just

10:27

one. You read

10:29

widely from

10:31

more conservative thought

10:34

to more radical thought.

10:36

You take all that

10:38

together And

10:40

then you sit and you think and where

10:42

is my thought in this? What is my

10:45

experience of this

10:47

passage? as I'm

10:49

trying to think through what

10:51

the passage has to say

10:53

to me. So that

10:56

takes a lot of time and

10:58

energy to do that and to

11:00

do it well. So I'm

11:02

very circumspect when

11:04

I use scripture in

11:06

my work because of that.

11:08

If I haven't done that

11:10

deep dive, then I have

11:12

no business trying to

11:15

use scripture in whatever

11:17

my argument is because

11:19

really what I'm doing is abusing scripture.

11:22

more using scripture Hope as a

11:24

political tool or a social

11:26

tool rather than

11:28

a biblical tool that is

11:30

both guide and

11:33

pride and caution and

11:35

doesn't answer everything. Because

11:38

for me, God's revelation

11:40

is ongoing. So

11:42

that scripture at that

11:44

point may have meant something to

11:46

the people in that era

11:48

that that passage comes from,

11:51

but it could mean something completely

11:53

different now. because

11:56

things have changed. Mhmm. So

11:58

how do we take that history

11:59

with us? Not leave it

12:02

behind? but

12:04

bring it along as part of the

12:06

information that we

12:08

need to know about the

12:10

passage itself. And

12:12

if we're going to be bold,

12:15

then say, thus says the Lord.

12:18

And that to me is a

12:20

very sacred task

12:22

and that one that I take

12:24

lightly. Yeah.

12:26

So I I what I'm hearing you

12:28

say, Emily, is that you know, to

12:30

say things like the use of

12:32

Scripture is a little bit simplistic and

12:34

and probably misleading because

12:37

it sort of presumes you

12:39

know, you're just going back to the bible. You're interested

12:41

in a very different kind of really conversation.

12:44

It sounds like an engagement with

12:46

other people. and coming together

12:48

around this bible letting

12:50

that I I think you used the word prod. Mhmm.

12:53

Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. That's

12:55

I think that's incredibly helpful. That's a great way

12:57

to think about it. Now You know, for me,

12:59

I think we must wrestle with

13:01

scripture. and I and we often

13:04

don't. We we

13:06

want to come up with

13:08

something that more rubber stamps

13:10

our opinion. Right.

13:12

As opposed to looking at

13:14

the the complicated world

13:16

of the Bible. My goodness.

13:19

Those folks are up to all manner

13:21

of things. And the history

13:23

of interpretation -- Yes. -- and and like

13:25

you said, the the different scholars

13:27

and people living in different eras.

13:29

And I think, you know, for for

13:31

probably a number of our listeners, and I know Jared

13:33

has this background, and I do probably to a

13:35

lesser extent, but when Bible

13:37

is seen as an authoritative

13:39

rulebook. You tend to

13:41

just go to that. And that

13:43

intervening conversation is just human tradition. It

13:45

doesn't mean anything. You're gonna get the straight

13:47

scoop. right from the

13:49

bible itself. Yeah.

13:51

And the bible is so much more than

13:53

that. It's poetry, it's

13:56

narrative, people in it are

13:58

very complex. I mean,

14:00

I don't tend to

14:02

think of David as a

14:03

good model for

14:05

how one should behave. So

14:07

we pick and choose the good part

14:09

of David and leave the

14:12

problematic parts on the page.

14:15

Mhmm. That's not that's not wrestling with the

14:17

Bible. Can you say more about that

14:19

wrestling? because III think

14:21

that's new for people, but it's something that

14:23

really with me around,

14:25

we respect what the Bible is

14:28

and and the scholarship that's been,

14:30

you know, diverse scholarship that's

14:32

been taking it seriously for

14:34

thousands of years. Mhmm. And yet there's

14:36

this almost this fear and trembling

14:38

that we have to then step out into

14:40

our current context. And we have

14:42

to make it mean something

14:44

relevant for us today. How

14:46

can you say more about the tools that you

14:48

use to do that in in

14:51

in a modern context? because I think some people

14:53

wrestle with what does the they kind of move

14:55

from, like Pete said, well, the

14:57

Bible just speaks to to me, and then we come to

14:59

this realization that, oh, this is an ancient

15:01

text. Maybe it doesn't have anything to

15:03

say to me. Right. So how do you bridge that

15:05

gap? Well, you know, the the

15:07

Bible has a lot to say to a lot of

15:09

people all at the same time,

15:11

and it may not be the same thing.

15:14

Mhmm. So for me, I think

15:16

Bible is best engaged

15:19

in community.

15:20

That's why III

15:23

have

15:23

when I I pastored now

15:26

years ago, I

15:29

used to call our bible

15:31

study time, fearless bible

15:33

study. because

15:35

we so often in the church

15:38

act like God can't handle

15:40

our questions. or

15:42

our doubts. Therefore, we would

15:44

be disrespectful to

15:47

God to say I have a

15:49

question or I have a doubt. when

15:51

in reality, we're we're just

15:53

not being honest about the

15:55

fact that we are

15:57

hesitant to dive

15:59

deep into our questions.

16:01

I was talking to a

16:03

local pastor when I

16:05

was on the faculty at Union Seminary

16:08

in New York, a a black pastor,

16:11

and we were walking down the hallway.

16:14

And he I was talking about

16:16

fearless bible study, and he I

16:18

like that doc, but I

16:20

don't know. I don't think my people are ready

16:22

for

16:22

it. I said, is it your people or is

16:24

it you? We

16:27

both stopped and and I

16:29

was so he knew I wasn't

16:31

trying to attack him. And

16:33

then

16:33

I said, you know,

16:35

God can handle anything

16:37

we throw at God. Why

16:40

not take God up

16:42

on that? Which biblical

16:44

writers do too? Oh, gosh.

16:46

Yes. No. They do.

16:48

There's Hope precedent for that sort of thing.

16:50

Yeah. So it's it's so

16:53

I I just think more

16:56

often than not, we undersell the

16:58

Bible, mostly

16:59

out of our fear and our doubts.

17:02

I

17:02

don't know. Rather

17:05

than taking it as an opportunity

17:07

to dive right in

17:09

there and try as

17:12

I say, wrestle with

17:14

it in community to

17:16

see what we come up with.

17:18

Yeah. That's I think it's a it's a risky

17:20

proposition because it doesn't necessarily

17:22

get us to a place of

17:25

certainty. And maybe can you say a little bit more that?

17:27

because because as we were preparing

17:29

to have you on. I I saw a video that you were

17:31

in, and you said the study of religion doesn't

17:33

give you final answers. I find

17:35

it gives me more question and then you actually say, which think ties

17:37

really well into this fearless bible study,

17:39

which I Bible, is that it helps

17:41

me stay invested in

17:44

the lives of other people. Can you talk more

17:46

about how religion -- Yeah. -- and this

17:48

idea of questions helps you stay invested

17:50

in people's lives? Yeah.

17:52

remember saying that and at the time

17:55

wondering, wow, that sounds really good. What

17:57

do I mean by that? So

17:59

you

17:59

Sorry to call you on

18:02

it. No. It's fine. because I have

18:04

been thinking about it because

18:06

people quote it back to me

18:08

a lot. And and this is

18:10

something that if you were ever

18:12

in a class I teach,

18:14

I teach classes by asking

18:17

questions. not coming in with

18:19

solutions. And

18:20

my bias is, if

18:22

you can come up with a pretty

18:25

good question, that's

18:27

gonna take you a lot further

18:29

than trying to come up with an

18:31

answer that may not even fit

18:34

the situation. And and and I

18:36

think we we we tend to do

18:38

that often. We want

18:40

answers. We want them now.

18:42

We want certainty. And

18:44

for

18:44

me, faith is all about trust

18:47

in the

18:48

unknown. It's

18:49

the evidence of things unseen.

18:53

I

18:53

just preached about that two Sundays ago.

18:56

If one can

18:58

take seriously, trusting

19:00

in god, and

19:02

then

19:03

living in that trust

19:06

in god. then I

19:08

think it opens us up

19:10

to worlds we can't see

19:12

because we're so invested

19:15

in a straight and narrow

19:17

view of the world

19:19

where there's certainty and

19:22

absolutes. I don't think that's the biblical

19:25

world, and I don't

19:27

think that really gets us into

19:29

deeper faithfulness. Mhmm.

19:32

Trust in God is a

19:34

risk. It's not

19:36

something that you know you

19:38

you know if you hit this number

19:41

every time it's gonna come up, threes or

19:43

fours or fives or whatever. It's

19:47

it's

19:48

being open. And if

19:51

I can

19:51

be open, then I can

19:53

in fact listen

19:55

to what other folks

19:57

are saying, what they're feeling, what

20:00

they're seeing, how

20:02

they're communicating. and

20:04

not assume. You know, we have a tendency

20:07

sometimes when we're talking to

20:09

someone that we're busy formulating

20:11

the answer before they stop talking.

20:14

Mhmm. Yeah. That's not listening.

20:16

That's not being present.

20:18

It's some sort of contest

20:21

of some kind. It doesn't

20:24

get us into being a

20:26

real community of

20:28

the faithful. And for me, that that

20:30

is so important, especially

20:32

in today's world. So you have to let

20:34

go of that quest for certainty in

20:36

a sense to be authentic

20:40

community. I think

20:42

so. Yeah. I think so. And I know that

20:44

runs counter to a lot of

20:46

folks religious worldview, but

20:48

I think that worldview has not gotten us in

20:50

very good places. Right. Well, it's a little

20:53

simplistic, but it's really nice to

20:55

blame the enlightenment for a lot

20:57

of things but as it sort of deserves

20:59

it. But it is the

21:01

legacy of western

21:03

patterns of thinking that

21:05

have been dominated historically by

21:08

men and by men who were white

21:10

and of a certain class. which

21:13

I think in my mind at least ties

21:15

in very well with what your

21:17

life is about and your careers about it, what your

21:19

thinking is about womanist ethics. is

21:21

community based and not scholastic

21:24

and top down

21:26

sort of pure model thinking. And

21:30

yeah. With

21:37

this, maybe there's a way I can

21:39

say this that just as you

21:41

guys were talking about seeing

21:44

questions and more questions keeping us

21:46

invested in the lives of others, I

21:48

was thinking that you know, questions are an

21:51

invitation for

21:53

the person I'm talking to to

21:55

share but they're also an invitation for me to

21:57

stay curious and and to

22:00

listen. And sometimes, I think maybe

22:02

when we feel like we have the

22:04

answer, we stop listening. And and if

22:06

community is sort of core to our

22:08

faith, there's this relationality that that

22:10

just requires us to stay what I hear you

22:12

saying is stay open Hope we

22:14

we need to keep our ears open and keep listening

22:16

to people who are different than

22:18

us. Mhmm. And, you know, can you say a little

22:20

more about the impact of

22:23

the community on the way

22:25

that you practice your

22:27

faith and read your bible. Mhmm.

22:29

Well, it's messy as I'll

22:32

get out. genuine community

22:34

is more like a cacophony rather

22:38

than barbershop quartet

22:41

harmony. it's really having

22:43

to recognize the

22:47

kind of chaos the

22:49

world was called into being

22:53

through and to

22:54

recognize that we

22:56

all don't have to agree

22:59

Sometimes

23:00

we have to sit in the midst of

23:03

the disagreements and still

23:05

figure out how we're gonna get this we're

23:07

gonna get this church

23:09

build. How are we gonna get

23:11

this community healed? How are we gonna get

23:13

the services we need?

23:17

in blighted communities. We

23:19

we don't always have to

23:22

agree. But one of the things about

23:24

community for me

23:26

is that it it's

23:29

it for it is agreement

23:32

to try to do

23:35

this together. whatever

23:37

this this is. Mhmm.

23:40

It's understanding that

23:43

there is something bigger

23:45

Now for me, the big bigger is

23:47

new heaven, new earth.

23:49

If I can sign on

23:52

to trying to

23:54

work with people and be with

23:56

people who are trying

23:58

to work with God

24:00

to bring in the new heaven and new earth,

24:02

then I need to

24:05

one, listen to

24:08

humble myself. Three,

24:11

talk if I

24:13

see something.

24:14

and then really

24:16

then listen again to

24:18

the responses

24:19

because it doesn't it

24:22

it it's it's an

24:24

imperfect thing community

24:26

-- Mhmm. -- which is its

24:29

perfection, I think. It

24:31

it doesn't quite ever get

24:33

to where it should be.

24:35

But the closer it gets,

24:37

the more we see the

24:39

New Heaven and New Earth breaking in.

24:41

I like to think I'm

24:44

a realistic optimist,

24:47

but it's it's very

24:49

very much for me. rooted in

24:51

hope. Mhmm. I don't think

24:54

hope is a

24:56

namby pamby word. I think hope

24:58

is hard. Mhmm. I

25:00

think hope really requires

25:02

a lot of fortitude and

25:04

Wisdom. And it takes

25:07

a lot of people trying to figure it out

25:09

together. How do you

25:11

hold onto that? And one of

25:13

my favorite James Townes

25:17

stories is years

25:19

ago when I was working on my book on

25:21

Black Healthcare, and

25:23

Chrome was very

25:25

much a health what we would

25:27

call a health nut. And he

25:29

was interested in the book. He knew I

25:31

was working on it.

25:33

he came to Kansas City where I

25:36

was teaching to do

25:38

some lectures at our school. And

25:41

so the minute he got in the

25:43

car from the airport. He said, okay. Where's where's the book?

25:45

And I had gotten to the last

25:48

chapter. And the book

25:50

is just it's written as

25:52

a lament because of

25:54

the state of black health that has not

25:56

changed that much actually

26:00

to today. And I said, I I don't understand

26:02

you. I I know all this

26:04

stuff about black health care

26:06

and black healing. I know all

26:08

this stuff and it's not good. It's not good at

26:11

all, but I still have hope.

26:13

And Jim Jim raised up

26:15

in the seat and he

26:18

looks at me and he says, and I will

26:20

not do my gem cone invitation, but

26:22

he Emilie, you

26:24

must have Hope. You've

26:26

got to have hope because

26:28

if you don't, the

26:31

only alternative is

26:33

despair. and

26:34

then they've won. Mhmm. And

26:38

I sat back in the

26:40

car. I'm still driving. And

26:42

I went, darn or something

26:43

equivalent to that. Yeah.

26:48

He's right. I was not

26:50

raised in a theology

26:52

of despair. I was

26:55

raised by folk who believed

26:57

in the power of hope

26:59

and lived it every day.

27:02

Two

27:02

weeks later, the book

27:03

was done. I was just like, okay.

27:05

I know I have one. This

27:07

is this is what I cut my IT

27:10

thought. grow it up in all these years.

27:12

That somehow someway, there's gonna

27:14

be a better day and my job

27:16

is to work with other folks to

27:18

bring it in. think that's a

27:21

great segue

27:21

into another question that I I had

27:23

for you because you've used these these terms that

27:25

we wouldn't normally put together. You

27:28

talk about a new heaven and a new

27:30

earth kind of that which is up there

27:32

and we think of as perfect and earth is

27:34

imperfect. You talk about community as

27:36

really messy and yet you talk about this

27:38

hope. So it's kind of these disparate parts

27:41

and that made me think of

27:43

another video I was watching. Sorry to keep bringing these

27:45

back and call you to account for these But in

27:47

a tribute to Tony Morrison, you said, you know,

27:49

what she taught me above

27:51

all is that the holy is both

27:53

radically imminent and radically transcend

27:55

it. And those were were words that we'd be familiar

27:57

with, but our listeners might not be familiar

27:59

with that. Mhmm. And I was curious, can

28:01

you explain what that means because I hear

28:03

a lot of that in the language you're using

28:05

around hope and yet messy -- Yeah. --

28:07

New heaven and New Earth and yet kind

28:10

of this coffony of

28:12

concepts that don't often jive

28:14

well together. Mhmm. Yeah.

28:17

Transcend That's when

28:19

when especially when I'm thinking

28:21

about God or the holy,

28:24

transcendence is a vertical

28:26

relation. ship. God is on high. I am down

28:29

here. And, you know,

28:31

God drops in on occasion, but

28:34

mostly guides on high and I'm down

28:37

here. Eminent means

28:40

inside me. God

28:42

is inside me, inside

28:44

of everyone else and

28:48

speaks to us. on a

28:51

very regular basis. That's

28:55

imminent. So

28:59

I don't want to do either or,

29:01

which is something that people will

29:03

tend to do. Either

29:05

god is other

29:07

or transcendent. or God is

29:09

entirely inner or

29:11

imminent. I I don't

29:14

have I I don't have

29:15

the authority

29:16

to put God anywhere. What

29:19

I have is to recognize God

29:21

is everywhere. And

29:24

that's what what I

29:26

mean about the

29:29

the new heaven, new earth, but

29:32

also working like crazy.

29:34

in the now and

29:36

being present in the now with

29:39

others to bring in the new heaven and

29:41

new earth. Mhmm. Well, Emily, this

29:43

is twenty twenty. I'm not

29:45

sure if you've noticed, but we have -- Oh,

29:47

no. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

29:49

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Good. Okay. So

29:52

I'd like to get back

29:54

to Hope because that is so

29:56

intriguing. And I've just been

29:58

sort of sitting here

29:59

silently thinking about that And maybe

30:02

you can

30:02

help us understand what flesh

30:05

out more what gives you hope.

30:08

not just not being in despair and then they

30:11

won or maybe that maybe what do I know?

30:13

Maybe maybe that's really the the the core

30:15

to it. But Can you articulate more, you

30:17

know, for the benefit of the people listening?

30:19

What what gives you hope? What

30:21

motivates you to keep

30:23

going? You

30:25

know, every

30:28

new academic year when

30:31

we welcome the

30:33

entering class, I just

30:35

well up with hope. Here's

30:37

here's some more folks

30:40

that believe the world will

30:42

be better we

30:44

could just figure out how to

30:46

live our faith better. You

30:48

know, and they're and they're and and, you

30:50

know, all of our interim classes

30:52

anywhere across the country is gonna be a motley

30:55

crew. And so it's

30:57

wonderful for me

30:59

to see this new entering

31:01

class with its excitement

31:03

and scared beyond all

31:06

knowing and being and not trying to

31:08

show it. that gives me

31:09

hope. Hope Here's

31:11

another Here's here's some

31:13

more help coming. Here's

31:17

some more questions unfolding.

31:19

Here's some new ideas.

31:22

Here's you know, I don't know what's

31:24

gonna be in this entering class until they

31:26

sit here long enough and

31:29

manifest themselves.

31:30

But the possibilities

31:33

they present. Give me hope.

31:35

The same thing

31:37

happens at commencement. their

31:40

people who I shake hands with,

31:44

and I know the world's wherever

31:46

they go, the world's gonna be a better

31:49

place. whatever they do, the

31:51

world's gonna be a better place.

31:53

And being able to

31:56

have that as part

31:58

of what we're doing and

31:59

being is so

32:04

much it

32:05

reminds me this is not

32:06

all on me.

32:08

the Mhmm.

32:09

And my charge my ordination

32:12

charge by David

32:15

Bartlett, may he rest in

32:17

peace? David said to

32:19

me as part of his charge

32:22

to me. leave

32:24

some work for the lord.

32:27

My mother never

32:29

let me forget that for

32:31

the rest of her life. On

32:34

occasion, she would say,

32:36

aren't you are you leaving enough work

32:38

for the Lord to do it seems to me?

32:40

Like, you take it on whole

32:42

lot Hope, you know, some of that guy

32:44

needs to take And, you know, and

32:46

usually she was right, although I wouldn't admit it

32:48

to her. So

32:50

watching the new come in

32:52

and leave. I know.

32:54

So letting the Lord do

32:56

some of the work really for you means

32:59

that next generation

33:01

or those new people coming in and

33:03

moving out again. But

33:04

also the people I see every

33:07

day have known my whole life or

33:09

not. I mean, you know, it

33:11

it it I I don't have to

33:13

do everything.

33:14

Mhmm.

33:15

I really don't. there's

33:17

there's a lot of talented people who

33:19

could probably do some things a lot better

33:21

than I can. don't

33:24

try

33:24

and do what they can do.

33:26

Do what I do. That's

33:28

that's enough. That's enough.

33:31

Hope for me also

33:34

comes just about every time I see a

33:36

baby. Just

33:38

about every time. and and

33:41

to just and especially if

33:43

I have the privilege of

33:45

watching them grow up,

33:49

even in the terrible twos and

33:51

threes. Mhmm. But the the

33:53

the that sense of

33:56

Hughes Here's just a little ball of

33:58

possibilities. This is this is

33:59

good stuff. Mhmm.

34:02

Who am I to

34:03

try to live my life as a

34:05

nihilist? Yeah. What

34:08

what might do we have to do that? Right?

34:12

Yeah. and it's just

34:14

downright selfish. So Are

34:16

there any other just

34:18

hearing you talk, you know, I think that's

34:20

great. leave leave some things for the lord to do.

34:22

Are there other things

34:25

that maybe words of

34:26

wisdom or words

34:27

of advice for

34:29

for listeners maybe who are

34:32

are trying hard to to

34:34

see the Bible in the way that we've talked about

34:36

here today

34:38

or to live a life in the way that

34:40

you've you've envisioned it here -- Mhmm. --

34:42

in terms of this

34:44

community based,

34:46

hope filled yet

34:48

messy way of of being in the world. Do you have

34:50

any other words of wisdom for

34:52

people as they try to take their next step

34:55

in that? Yeah. Take

34:58

time. Don't rush

35:01

it. Take time

35:04

time. give

35:06

yourself a space. And

35:09

I'm not talking about hours

35:11

and hours. Maybe sometimes it's

35:13

only five minutes. but give

35:16

yourself space

35:19

to simply sit

35:22

and listen. to god's mysteries in the

35:24

world. That will open you

35:26

up in ways you

35:28

can't believe

35:31

And then

35:31

when you pick up a

35:33

bible bull

35:35

or a

35:38

lesson plan, or whatever.

35:41

You'll go

35:42

you'll come to it with new eyes

35:44

and a much

35:45

more open heart and

35:48

know that this is something you

35:50

practice your whole life. You don't

35:52

get it perfect. This is

35:55

not about perfection. I'm too

35:57

much of a Baptist to believe in perfection. But

35:59

it is

36:01

about the possibilities. of

36:05

how how

36:05

we really can grow by picking

36:08

up the bible

36:09

and letting the bible

36:11

do its thing in

36:14

our lives as we ask

36:16

it questions and realize sometimes

36:18

the questions we have today The

36:21

answers may not be there, but they might

36:23

be in the community that's studying the

36:26

bible

36:28

with you. Yeah.

36:30

Don't put it all

36:32

in the bible but

36:34

the community is responsibility. Mhmm.

36:36

That's that's a great word.

36:38

Yeah. To

36:39

just seem to tie with what you're saying earlier of,

36:41

you know, we this this

36:43

sense of community can be risky

36:45

and it can feel

36:48

like, we're taking a chance and we don't have control over the whole thing. But

36:50

the flip side of that is we also don't have the

36:53

all the weight and all the responsibility.

36:55

Right. And that's sort

36:57

of that faith and hope and trust Hope- Mhmm. --

37:00

in god kind of

37:02

transcendentally, but also god

37:05

more horizontally -- Mhmm. -- and imminently in

37:07

the community and in each of us.

37:10

Yeah. Well

37:11

put well,

37:14

it's been an honor to have you with us on on the show today. It's

37:16

been great to I'm kinda

37:18

sitting here pondering all the things that that you've

37:20

been talking about, and I'm sure we'll

37:22

be both be thinking about it for Why

37:24

didn't we look two hours? I know.

37:26

That's all of those. But where

37:28

where can people find you

37:30

or or your work either

37:32

online or other ways that people can can

37:34

stay connected. Connect with you. Well,

37:36

I

37:36

mean, I I my

37:39

email

37:39

address is on our our

37:41

web pages at the on the school at the divinity

37:43

school. And I I actually

37:46

answer my

37:48

Emilie. Good. because

37:50

you're clearly not a -- Yeah. -- millennial. Yeah.

37:52

No. I mean, if it's

37:55

that's sincere and I I mean, every

37:57

once in a while, I get emailed, but it's clear that you're not interested in

37:59

in that conversation. You just wanna tell

38:01

me I'm I'm

38:04

going to to hell. And, you know, that's not helpful. And there's no

38:06

conversation to be had there.

38:08

Mhmm. But I answered

38:10

my email. So

38:12

that's one place. So don't

38:15

don't hesitate to

38:18

drop me a line and ask me a question

38:22

or It may take a little bit for me to get back to you

38:24

because the pandemic

38:26

has thrown off all sense of

38:30

normal time. for, I think, all of us.

38:32

Mhmm. So that's one place. I

38:34

do have a Facebook

38:36

page. It's not

38:38

very imaginatively named. It's

38:41

Emily Emilie. And

38:43

I do, on occasion,

38:45

post things there or

38:48

pass on information that I

38:50

really think is important. So

38:53

you can find me

38:55

there. I have a Twitter handle.

38:57

It's v u divinity

39:00

Dean. That's

39:02

my latest challenge

39:04

is to get up and running with Twitter.

39:07

Oh, you wanna talk

39:09

about messy community. There you go. Yeah.

39:11

You're gonna have as much as

39:13

you can. I'm trying to decide if I

39:15

really, really wanna do that.

39:18

Yeah. You want you wanna think twice about

39:20

Anyway, Townes just my opinion. That's okay. Are

39:22

you working on anything now, Emily? Any

39:24

any projects? Any any any any public

39:26

speaking coming up? Or any maybe art

39:29

goals or essays or books or anything? Yeah. There

39:32

I actually Emilie. President

39:34

Angela Sims was just

39:37

inaugurated at Colgate Rochester or

39:39

Crozer divinity school -- Mhmm. --

39:42

yesterday. And on Monday,

39:44

she had a panel I

39:46

was on with Ebony Marshall German

39:49

and Melva Samson and Marla Fredericks was

39:51

the moderator on womanist

39:54

words, when and where

39:56

I enter. that's

39:58

up on the Colgate Rochester Crozer,

40:01

EVENITY School, Facebook page.

40:03

So -- Okay. --

40:06

you can hear what I was

40:08

thinking about. I was given a

40:10

word, and the word I was

40:12

given to talk about

40:14

was toxicity.

40:16

So I played with them for about ten

40:18

minutes or so. That's all? That's

40:20

all I was given. That's all I

40:22

tried to do when people last me

40:25

to do x number of minutes? I try to --

40:27

You do. -- stick to it and my and like Oh,

40:29

you're my hero. That's fantastic. I don't

40:32

know. People are like, you're really

40:34

dead. I said, yeah, you gave

40:36

me ten. Yeah. Nice. Well, thank you so much for being so generous

40:38

with your time here and and for giving folks

40:40

opportunity to send you an Emilie.

40:44

I just think you have a lot of words of wisdom for folks, so

40:46

I hope people take you up on that. Thanks

40:48

again so much for for joining us. We

40:50

really you. Thank you so much, Emily.

40:52

Thanks for having me again, guys.

40:54

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