0:00

You're listening to a Frequency Podcast

0:02

Network production. When

0:06

we cover the economy, on a

0:08

show like In This Economy or even on The

0:10

Big Story, we focus on

0:13

the cost of living. As we

0:15

should, in poll after poll,

0:17

Canadians tell surveyors it is their number

0:19

one issue. They'll vote on

0:21

it. But has anybody asked

0:23

them how they feel

0:26

about the cost of dying? Because

0:29

that's not getting any cheaper

0:32

either. CBC News has learned

0:34

that right behind the garbage dumpster that you

0:36

just saw, there are these three freezer units,

0:38

and inside those freezer units are 28 bodies.

0:41

And what's happening in Newfoundland and Labrador is

0:44

that more and more people are not claiming

0:46

the bodies of their loved ones when they

0:48

pass away, because they just can't afford the

0:50

costs of cremation and funerals. That's

0:53

a clip from a recent CBC

0:55

News story by Anthony Germain. It

0:58

illustrates the grim result of

1:00

a harrowing scenario. What

1:02

happens when a significant portion

1:04

of the population can't afford

1:06

the costs associated with

1:09

the death of a loved one? This

1:13

is an extreme example, but it's

1:15

not uncommon for people to be

1:17

floored at the expenses incurred when

1:20

a partner or a parent dies.

1:23

In these cases, emotional distress

1:26

is compounded by financial distress.

1:34

I'm Jordan Heath-Rawlings. You are

1:36

listening to In This Economy,

1:39

where we help you understand

1:41

the systems that create your

1:43

money problems, from

1:45

birth to death, and

1:48

everything in between. When

1:50

we first started working on this episode,

1:53

we weren't responding to a specific

1:55

listener email or a voicemail. It's

1:58

just that our team heard. That

2:00

awful news story from Newfoundland and

2:03

we couldn't stop thinking about it It's

2:05

an uncomfortable topic to think about

2:07

even less comfortable to talk about

2:10

but we wanted to explore it because It's

2:13

something we're all going to have to

2:15

face sooner or hopefully

2:17

later And

2:23

as if to prove that point Just

2:26

a few days ago as we were putting

2:28

the finishing touches on this episode We

2:31

received an email from a listener. We're calling

2:33

Cheryl Cheryl told

2:35

us a devastating story about losing

2:37

her mother at the same time

2:39

as her father Was diagnosed

2:42

with a rapidly advancing form of

2:44

dementia a Huge

2:46

snag dad was mom's executor

2:49

and while she had a valid will at the time

2:51

of her death No provisions had been

2:53

made for a future situation in which dad

2:55

might be incapacitated After

2:57

an extended grueling period of trying to

2:59

help our mother with end-of-life care while

3:02

she remained in a publicly funded Catholic

3:04

hospital with an outdated philosophy and

3:07

keeping tabs on dad who was in acute care

3:09

200 kilometers away from mom My

3:12

sister and I were utterly exhausted and

3:14

thought help from a funeral home They're

3:17

not bad people, but

3:19

it certainly is a buyer beware situation

3:22

And we had no fight left in us Jordan

3:24

I wonder if there's a way for us to

3:26

rethink what a funeral needs to be and

3:29

how we can avoid paying What feels like

3:31

exorbitant fees for so many things or

3:34

how we can avoid paying for too many things

3:36

period? So today we

3:39

are turning to someone who is trying

3:41

to help people do just that And

3:44

have those uncomfortable conversations

3:47

Erin burry is the co-founder of willful

3:50

which is a digital estate planning app

3:53

her stated mission Is

3:55

to make estate planning more accessible

3:57

and affordable? to Get

3:59

rid of. Of those surprise us.

4:02

Aren't have you heard the story

4:05

out of New Finland about unfortunately

4:07

our bodies piling up in freezers

4:09

outside of More because apparently some

4:11

people are really struggling to afford

4:13

the cost of burying their loved

4:16

ones. I. Have heard that

4:18

and. Obviously. It sounds

4:20

shocking that as we're going to get into

4:22

today. The. Huge barrier. So

4:24

it ultimately doesn't surprise me that

4:26

soaps are having challenges Me I'm

4:28

paying the bills for. You

4:31

know, helping honor their loved ones? For.

4:33

Those of us who have been

4:36

i guess a lucky enough not

4:38

to have to coordinate burial, a

4:40

state funeral plans, etc for a

4:42

loved one? Can you may be

4:45

just a walk us through. The.

4:47

Costs that arise after someone passes

4:49

away and especially I guess if

4:51

they are passed away suddenly or

4:54

unexpectedly. Absolutely well there there.

4:56

There's a few companies for the

4:58

first says it can funeral and

5:00

burial plan. So you know the

5:02

cremation has gone up at Son

5:04

in Canada, So now seventy two

5:06

percent as his twenties and seventy

5:08

two percent of South are cremated

5:10

versus forty eight percent in two

5:12

thousand sell. We're seeing that rate

5:14

go up a time and cremation.

5:16

It's typically more affordable than Farrell

5:18

said finish And you're looking at

5:20

typically between about Syria five thousand

5:22

dollars were. As for burial, it's.

5:25

Gonna between five and ten K. Now you

5:27

to have a one thousand dollar burial? You

5:29

the probably have one hundred thousand dollar you

5:31

know, celebration of life depending on what you're

5:33

looking for. Ah and there

5:36

are these Smith new Directive

5:38

Consumer Cremation Company is like

5:40

Irene that are fun and

5:42

Breen that costs down Similar.

5:44

To you. Know other companies and cutting

5:46

out the middleman and and bringing costs down

5:48

south but as this one components of the

5:50

cost of passing away as I had a

5:52

we barrier for he made our loved ones.

5:54

How do we have a celebration of life

5:56

that honors and then you also have to

5:58

look at the car. of kind

6:01

of legal and government fees and the

6:03

cost of actually wrapping up someone's estate.

6:05

So that means the executor of the

6:07

estate paying probate fees, which are typically

6:10

1.5% of the estate

6:12

in Ontario and they vary across

6:14

Canada. Then you're usually paying a

6:16

lawyer or an accountant or both

6:19

to help with filing the final tax

6:21

return and navigating closing up the estate,

6:23

which is super complex. And

6:26

so it all really, really adds up

6:28

from celebrating and honoring someone's life to

6:30

hiring professionals to navigate the process. And

6:32

to your point, the less prepared you

6:34

are, the more expensive it is. You

6:37

speak to people a lot who are in the

6:39

middle of this and dealing with these costs. Why

6:42

are people so surprised by these

6:44

costs? We do anything

6:47

and everything we can as a society in

6:49

Canada to avoid thinking about our own mortality.

6:51

And that's because of a couple of reasons.

6:53

Number one, it's uncomfortable. No one really wants

6:55

to sit around on a Friday night with

6:57

a glass of wine, talking about

6:59

death when they could be watching Netflix. But

7:02

also it's just, it's not something that we

7:04

ever learn about. I mean, we learn about

7:06

a bunch of other

7:08

things in school. We certainly don't learn

7:10

about estate planning and the importance of

7:12

it and the cost of dying. So

7:14

I think a big reason is frankly,

7:16

ignorance. We truly don't know

7:19

how much it costs to pay

7:21

for things like funerals. We

7:23

don't know anything about probate fees or how

7:25

taxes work when you pass away. So I

7:28

don't think it's because people are just malicious

7:30

and want to leave a huge mess in

7:32

a giant bill for their family. It truly is.

7:34

We just don't know any better as a society.

7:36

And we certainly don't prioritize taking the time

7:38

out to actually learn more about it. I

7:41

want to talk through the stages that you mentioned in terms

7:43

of what we have to do. And maybe let's start with

7:47

burials because I understand the

7:49

cost has been rising and why

7:52

is that? And also, I guess

7:54

I'm just curious because I've seen some

7:56

stories about this. So,

8:00

you know, the entrepreneurial plots are somewhat like

8:02

real estate, I guess, in that scarcity

8:05

drives the price up. How does it work? Yeah,

8:07

it's a great question. I mean, I'm in the

8:09

digital pre-planning business, so I can't speak too much to

8:12

the, you know, the land ownership

8:14

side of cemeteries. But what I can say

8:16

is, so we're partnered with Arbor Memorial,

8:18

which is the largest funeral home chain in Canada. So,

8:20

I reached out to them and I said, listen, send

8:22

me the trends, send me the data. They

8:25

reported that in 1980, the cost of cemetery

8:27

services alone was $8,000. So,

8:31

the cost to bury someone. And that as

8:33

of 2010 was $18,000. Oh, wow.

8:36

So, a lot of this just goes back

8:38

to number one, inflation, right? These costs are

8:40

just going to go up over time along

8:43

with everything else. And then

8:45

I think just objectively, the other

8:47

reason is scarcity, as you mentioned,

8:49

like, you know, there's just not

8:51

as many places to bury people.

8:53

And so, you know, with scarcity

8:55

comes, prices going up. And

8:57

you know, you can get around some of that

9:00

by pre-planning. You can break it down into, you

9:02

know, a payment plan, for example. And often

9:04

you can lock in, depending on who you're

9:07

pre-planning with, you can lock in today's

9:09

price. So, if you actually pass away in 10

9:11

years, your family would still be able to kind

9:14

of honor that price that you paid for it

9:16

10 years ago. But ultimately, I mean,

9:18

this is the cost are only going to go

9:20

up over time because of scarcity

9:22

and inflation. It's so interesting

9:24

that as I'm having this conversation with

9:26

you, it feels morbid to

9:29

me. It feels like I

9:31

shouldn't be discussing it, like we're focusing on

9:33

death. And this is exactly what

9:35

you're talking about, right? Why we don't plan for it because

9:37

it just feels icky to

9:39

discuss and think about. Yeah, I think

9:41

it's natural. I mean, listen, I have two

9:44

kids under three years old. So,

9:46

my deepest, darkest thoughts are about what happens

9:48

if I'm not around and I don't get

9:50

to see them grow up. But there's also

9:52

this rational part of my brain, especially running

9:54

an online will company where it's

9:56

like, yeah, we're all going to die. Probably

10:00

we all know that and we

10:02

know that we should be taking

10:04

precautions, taking out life insurance policies,

10:07

sharing our wishes, making sure our family

10:09

knows about and has access to our

10:11

crypto or other assets and trying to

10:14

reduce burden. If

10:16

I asked you, do you want to burden your

10:18

kids or your family? The answer is no,

10:21

but when you actually ask people, okay, well

10:23

then what concrete steps have you taken to

10:25

avoid that, to reduce burden of time and

10:28

costs and anxiety? The answer is

10:30

usually, well, I haven't done much, right? The

10:32

stats are pretty clear. Most Canadians don't have

10:34

wills. Most Canadians don't

10:36

have life insurance policies. I would

10:38

argue that out of everyone pre-planning

10:41

their funeral or cemetery arrangements, it's

10:43

probably mostly 65 plus

10:46

folks, which does make sense. They're thinking about

10:48

it more, but yeah, I get

10:50

it. It's not the fun thing to think about,

10:52

but it's kind of like taxes. One of those

10:55

must-dos that in my mind takes

10:58

this huge burden off. When

11:00

we talk to customers who have just created

11:02

a will or just done any other aspect

11:04

of planning, the number one most consistent feedback

11:06

I hear is A, it

11:09

was easier than I thought it would be. A, I

11:11

built it up to be this monster task in my mind

11:13

and it really wasn't. And

11:16

B, it is this huge weight off their shoulders. It's

11:19

this peace of mind that they've taken this step to

11:21

protect their family. So yeah, it's

11:23

uncomfortable. We all avoid it,

11:25

but when we do it, we feel better about

11:27

it and we feel empowered. So how do we

11:29

get people to do it more? I don't know.

11:31

That's what we try to figure out every single

11:33

day. Let's talk about the burden that

11:35

you've mentioned a few times in very real terms. And

11:39

again, since most people haven't prepared, what

11:42

actually happens if someone dies in this

11:44

country and they don't have a proper

11:47

will and they haven't made any accommodation

11:49

for their funeral costs? What practically happens

11:51

next and who's responsible for whatever costs

11:53

occur? Great question. So

11:56

if you passed away tomorrow and you did

11:58

not have a will, there's a... government

12:00

formula in each province that dictates

12:02

who's going to get your assets. Usually starts

12:04

with a spouse. If you have one, then it

12:06

goes to children. If you have

12:08

them, then parents, siblings, et cetera.

12:10

There's a misconception that if

12:13

you die without a will, the government gets your

12:15

money. That's only true in the event that you

12:17

have no living heirs. Otherwise your

12:19

assets get split up according to that

12:21

formula. But right off the bat, there's

12:24

an issue where the course has to get

12:26

involved to appoint an executor. It

12:28

can be a messy process. And that's where right

12:31

off the bat, you might be incurring some legal

12:33

fees, you know, that are going to cost you

12:35

more than if you had had a will that

12:37

clearly stated who the executor would be. Same

12:39

with if you have minor children, you might

12:41

have to get the courts involved to appoint

12:44

a guardian for them. So you're

12:46

adding kind of legal and administrative burden right

12:48

off the bat. If

12:50

you have life insurance, then that

12:52

can go to paying for funeral and burial

12:54

costs. Maybe you have it through a work

12:57

policy. Maybe you have a private life insurance

12:59

policy. The benefit of that is it's paid

13:01

out very quickly. You might get life insurance

13:03

money in two weeks, three

13:05

weeks, and that can be used

13:07

to directly pay for a lot of those

13:09

expenses. If not, it takes

13:11

typically in Canada, 12 to 18 months

13:13

to settle someone's estate and pay out

13:15

to beneficiaries, which means that if you

13:17

die without a life insurance policy or

13:19

anything set up, you might have

13:22

to pay out of pocket for those

13:24

kind of funeral and burial expenses, and you

13:26

may not be reimbursed for quite a long

13:28

time. If I passed away tomorrow

13:31

and I have no life insurance and I have

13:33

not, I don't have a savings account to cover

13:35

it. There is a government benefit as long as

13:37

you've paid into CPP of $2,500, a one-time death

13:41

benefit. Right now they're arguing to

13:43

raise that because it's been the same for 25

13:46

years. And as I just

13:48

told you, funeral and burial costs have been through

13:50

the roof. And this benefit has stayed the same,

13:52

2,500 bucks. Right. Well, I

13:54

don't think you're really going to be able to, you

13:57

know, cremate your loved one and have a celebration

13:59

of life. for anywhere close to that amount

14:01

of money. So to your question, well then

14:03

who's paying for it? Often family members

14:05

are having to front this money out of

14:07

pocket. Yes, it can be reimbursed from the

14:09

estate when it's settled, but asterisk when

14:12

it's settled 18 months later. Yes, they

14:14

can pay for it out of life insurance, but even then

14:17

you're not getting that for weeks and

14:19

you've probably already had to incur those

14:21

costs. So the short answer is family

14:24

members are paying for it, or they're taking

14:26

out loans to pay for it, or they're

14:28

asking friends to front foot that bill, and

14:31

if they can't find anyone too, then you

14:33

have the situation that we have in Newfoundland.

14:36

Have you noticed, and I guess

14:39

you might not be at the front of this,

14:41

but an increase in

14:43

the number of people who are right on the edge

14:45

of not being able to afford that when they need

14:47

to. I've seen, in

14:50

the past couple of years, I've seen a couple of

14:53

crowdfunding efforts to support a celebration of

14:56

life, and I guess I'm wondering with

14:58

how tight everything is, are we

15:00

seeing more people who are in that, maybe

15:02

not the extreme situation we're talking about in

15:04

Newfoundland, but are in

15:06

a situation where they're struggling to honor their

15:09

loved ones in a way that allows them

15:11

closure and lets them feel

15:13

like they're really saying goodbye. I mean, absolutely.

15:15

I mentioned that there's a call

15:17

to increase this death benefit. So it's

15:20

the Funeral Service Association of Canada that

15:22

is kind of calling on the government

15:24

saying $2,500 isn't enough. It's been the

15:26

same for 25 years. Families

15:28

cannot honor their loved ones

15:30

with that amount of money, and

15:32

in the article I read about it said over

15:34

10% of Canadian seniors are

15:37

living at or below the poverty line.

15:39

So, you know, that's the seniors themselves.

15:42

You might say, well, their family that they're leaving

15:44

behind might have the money to front it, but

15:46

in many cases they don't. So yeah,

15:48

I think we're seeing an increase in

15:50

folks who are not able to honor their loved

15:52

ones the way that they want to, that are

15:54

having a capital crunch at the time they pass

15:57

away, and that are ultimately kind

15:59

of bearing the

16:01

burden of both lack

16:03

of planning, but also just lack of

16:05

resources to do what they would

16:07

have hoped for. And you're right, you're seeing a

16:09

lot of, like when someone's house burns

16:12

down, right? You see a GoFundMe, even though they

16:14

have home insurance, a lot of times there's GoFundMe

16:16

to replace a lot of the things outside of

16:18

insurance or to help them out. And you

16:21

certainly see that when someone passes away, you

16:23

see a lot of GoFundMe that are about,

16:26

yes, the education fund for the kids, but

16:28

also the cost of dying and the cost

16:30

of wrapping that up, not to mention income

16:32

replacement if the person who passed away was

16:35

working. When we talk about so many

16:37

people dying unprepared or

16:39

without their affairs in order, what

16:41

is the biggest challenge in getting someone, and

16:43

here I'm not gonna talk about someone 65,

16:45

70, but

16:47

somebody my age, around 40,

16:50

or even somebody younger, who

16:53

really, like let's be honest, hasn't

16:56

given much thought to it regardless yet?

16:59

Well, I already spoke about kind of lack

17:01

of knowledge, right? Not knowing what you need,

17:03

not knowing what you don't know. I

17:06

think the biggest practical barriers, I mean, my

17:08

husband and I started willful because we wanted

17:10

to get our own affairs in order. We

17:12

wanted to get a will when we were

17:14

in our early 30s and we got quoted

17:16

four figures for a will from

17:18

a lawyer, even though we had a pretty simple situation.

17:21

And when we kind

17:23

of looked into it and started talking to

17:25

our friends about it, we found the same

17:27

practical barriers, which was cost. I

17:30

don't wanna pay $1,000 plus for

17:32

what is a relatively simple document, especially at a

17:34

point in my life where I don't have a

17:36

lot of complexity. I'm

17:39

not Elon Musk, I don't have, I don't need

17:41

all of these fancy mechanics. The

17:43

second barrier is convenience. So

17:47

the laws around estate

17:49

planning are super antiquated. Your

17:52

will has to be printed on paper,

17:54

signed with wet ink, stored as a

17:57

physical copy in every province except British

17:59

Columbia. that you can imagine. Really?

18:01

Yeah, COVID hits. And then all

18:04

of a sudden, I don't have a printer at home.

18:06

I can't get together with witnesses, because you

18:08

know, social distancing. So I think that was

18:10

a big kind of come to Jesus moment

18:12

where it was like, wow, these laws are

18:14

so out of date. There's, you know, so

18:16

much paper involved, it doesn't work. But

18:19

it's a really traditional industry, and it's going to

18:21

take time. So convenience is the second one, not

18:23

just convenience of having to have a paper document,

18:25

but also going into the legal

18:27

lawyer's office in the middle of the workday and,

18:29

you know, working around their schedule. And

18:32

then accessibility, right? If you think about

18:34

like, I live in Prince Edward County,

18:36

pretty rural community, if you have mobility

18:38

issues, I think there's just a lot

18:41

of access to justice issues in general

18:43

around low income Canadians, marginalized groups, disabled

18:46

folks, being able to access legal

18:48

services just across the board because

18:50

of costs and convenience. So those

18:52

are kind of the practical barriers.

18:54

I mean, it's not true

18:56

to say that we've been able to solve

18:58

for all of those by, you know, bringing

19:01

this process online, because we still have to

19:03

respect the legal requirements around physical documents. And,

19:06

but I think you're seeing more startups

19:08

and tech companies try to tackle this

19:11

problem of access to justice and reduce

19:13

the barriers so that it's easier for

19:15

folks to either pre-plan or

19:18

to deal with settling in a state when

19:20

the time comes. What

19:36

are the easiest ways to mitigate some of

19:38

these costs that we're discussing? I know

19:41

maybe there's no perfect shortcut, but the

19:44

less prepared you are, the more money it costs. So what

19:47

are the top ways, I guess, to trim some of

19:49

that by doing things in advance? So

19:52

first thing I would do, if I'm listening, is I

19:54

would check my work group benefits plan,

19:56

if I have one, to check on how much

19:58

life insurance is there. I passed

20:00

away tomorrow. What check is my

20:02

family getting? It can be usually 10, 25, $50,000,

20:04

but sometimes a lot more. That

20:08

gives you the peace of mind right there that

20:11

funeral and burial costs could be covered

20:13

quite easily. Obviously, if

20:15

you switch jobs or you don't have coverage,

20:17

then I would be looking at getting life

20:19

insurance. You can get term life insurance for

20:22

a pretty affordable monthly rate, and then you

20:24

know that your family is financially taken care

20:26

of. They're not having to pay out of

20:28

pocket. I would obviously, I

20:30

mean, I'm biased. I run a will company, but I would

20:32

get a will so that you know, A,

20:35

your wishes are documented, but also that

20:37

the legal costs are going to be

20:40

reduced after you pass because that document

20:42

lays out everything that you're looking for.

20:45

And then I would be very clear with

20:47

your family about what you want from a

20:49

funeral and burial perspective. For example, if you

20:51

want to be cremated and not buried, that's

20:53

cheaper. You can also prepay and

20:55

pre-plan. I'm going to be honest. I'm 38 years

20:57

old. Am I going to

20:59

prepay for my funeral out of pocket when I just

21:01

told you I have two kids under three that are

21:04

very expensive? No, I'm not going to, but

21:06

I'm, you know, I'm going to make sure

21:08

that I've shared my wishes. Unfortunately, I do

21:10

want a very expensive celebration of life that

21:12

is open bar and at a very cool

21:14

location. So I will have to plan for that,

21:16

but I do have the

21:18

life insurance and the things set up that

21:21

would give me confidence that my husband would

21:23

be able to plan something great. Who

21:25

knows? I mean, maybe he'll just take that money

21:27

and spend it on Vegas, but I'll be gone.

21:29

So we'll see. Are

21:31

you going to go for burial or cremation? I'm

21:34

a cremation gal. You

21:36

know, it's to me,

21:38

it's very practical. It's cheaper. You're saving money.

21:40

It's cheaper. I want to save my relatives

21:42

money, but no, I've always liked the idea

21:44

of cremation. I don't like the idea of

21:46

maybe I just watched too many scary movies,

21:49

but the idea of, you know, sitting in

21:51

a box in the ground, whereas

21:53

other people feel very strongly about about

21:56

burial and it takes up

21:58

less real estate in the world. So

22:01

one thing I've been thinking about more

22:03

lately is kind of sustainable burials

22:06

and cremations, right? Because cremation

22:08

ultimately is pretty bad for the

22:10

environment. I mean, you're like, right, all

22:12

of these emissions from burning someone, right?

22:15

Whereas if they bury you, you feed the worms. There

22:17

you go. So there are, there's a

22:19

company called Better Place Forest. I think it's actually

22:21

a Canadian that started it and they allow you

22:23

to be buried under one of

22:25

those big redwoods in California, which I think

22:28

is kind of cool. And

22:30

then there's also this new trend

22:32

called Aquamation, which is basically cremation,

22:34

but breaking your body down with

22:36

water instead of with fire.

22:40

So anyways, I don't know if it's a cost of those,

22:42

but I think innovation in

22:44

the space, whether that's companies helping

22:46

you preplan or handle the settlement

22:48

process or some

22:51

of these more green burial and

22:53

cremation options will inevitably provide more

22:55

competition. And I do think that

22:58

will be better for the industry at large. It'll

23:00

drive costs down as a whole. We

23:02

mentioned that these are tough conversations to

23:04

have. I find that if you can

23:07

joke about it as we're doing it, it can become

23:09

a little easier. That's obviously much easier to do when

23:12

you're in the middle of your life, as opposed to thinking

23:15

seriously about what's to come. How

23:18

do people start these

23:20

conversations with aging

23:22

parents or loved ones? And

23:25

you don't know if they've prepared.

23:28

You don't know how much money they've put away for it,

23:30

if any. And

23:32

it's tough to open a conversation with like, so

23:35

you're getting close to the end here. What

23:37

do we got put away? Absolutely. And it's

23:39

hard to bring that up without seeming self-serving,

23:42

like, okay, what's my heritage check going to

23:44

be here? We

23:46

always... You want to be cremated,

23:48

right? You definitely want to be cremated. It's cheaper.

23:51

Exactly. No expensive barrels for

23:54

you, dad. I think the place

23:56

that we always start, the place I've started

23:58

with my own family, because I'm not

24:00

saying which generation where I'm caring

24:02

for young kids, but I have

24:04

aging parents. My husband and I, both

24:07

of our parents are divorced and

24:09

remarried. So that's eight aging

24:11

parents who also know that their

24:14

daughter or daughter-in-law run the will company. And so

24:16

I'm definitely going to be the executor in a

24:18

lot of wills. Let's just put it that way.

24:20

You need to get a bulk discount. I

24:22

know, exactly. So I have a vested interest in

24:24

making sure we all have a vested interest and

24:26

not just making sure we have our own plans

24:28

in place so we don't burden the next generation

24:30

or our siblings or parents, but also

24:32

so that we know their

24:35

wishes so that it's easier for us. And

24:37

so start the conversation with what do

24:39

you want your legacy to be? It's such a softer

24:42

way to open it. Not what's my inheritance check. Do

24:44

you want to be buried or cremated? Because that's a

24:46

little shocking after you ask, you know, hey, do you

24:48

want to go to Costco on Sunday? But,

24:50

you know, sit down. Hey, this is really

24:52

important to me. I want to make sure

24:54

I'm prepared to honor your wishes in a

24:56

way that would really respect them. I

24:59

can't do that if I don't know them.

25:01

Maybe you haven't thought about this, but I want

25:03

to plant the seed. How can I honor

25:05

your legacy? Is that donating to a certain

25:07

charity? Is that like my grandmother wanting to have

25:09

her body donated to science so that she could

25:12

further scientific research and have a positive impact?

25:14

But ultimately, if you broach it with

25:16

that, then it becomes easier to get into the

25:18

logistical questions of, okay, do you have a will?

25:20

Do you have power of attorney documents? Do you

25:22

have life insurance? Where's all this stuff stored? What

25:25

about passwords to key accounts? You want me to

25:27

shut down your Facebook or keep it active? You

25:30

can get into the nitty gritty of that after

25:32

you've had the big conversations. What if

25:34

they want a funeral and

25:36

you're like, I am not going to be

25:39

able to afford that, that you've got planned

25:41

there. Mom, what if they're like you

25:43

and they want this amazing celebration of life with an

25:45

open bar and you're like, I'm just trying

25:47

to afford a casket here. Well, number

25:50

one, Costco does sell caskets. So, you

25:52

know, you can go the affordable route

25:54

and buy in bulk, as you

25:57

were saying earlier, but I heard this story. of

26:00

a set of brothers in Ireland. The

26:02

dad passed away and he wanted this

26:04

big Irish celebration of life, tons of

26:06

open bar and food and drinks. And

26:09

one of the sons was like, gung ho, let's do

26:11

it for dad. And the other son was like, I

26:14

don't wanna do it because it's taking dollars out

26:16

of my inheritance. So no, we're just gonna plan

26:18

this like really small party, low budget.

26:20

And so it ended up going to court and

26:22

the judge ruled that they had to have the

26:24

big party because that was the dad's wishes and

26:26

because there was money for it. So all

26:29

that to say, the best

26:31

thing you can do is document your wishes,

26:33

document what you want. And

26:36

you really are responsible for funding

26:38

it. I think expecting that if

26:40

you pass away penniless, your family's

26:42

gonna throw you a six figure

26:44

celebration like an elaborate wedding, it's

26:47

not really realistic. So it is, I think the

26:49

onus is on us as the people

26:51

who want to be honored in a certain way

26:53

to set it up so that our family is

26:55

equipped to honor those wishes in a

26:57

way that doesn't bankrupt them. So

26:59

make sure you get everything in writing basically

27:01

ahead of time, everything. Ideally, I

27:03

mean, there's illegal documents like the will,

27:06

but there's also just, you can

27:08

record wishes outside of that. And the more you

27:10

record for your family, the easier it's gonna be.

27:12

I mean, you can get down to, some people

27:14

are so, I have, I mean,

27:16

I'm anal about it because obviously I run

27:19

an estate planning company, but I've got a

27:21

Google Drive doc that has the songs I

27:23

want played at my funeral, the last social

27:25

media posts I'd want posted because

27:28

it was my luck, my last tweet would be

27:30

about the latest Fast and the Furious movie. And

27:32

I'd like something a little more poignant to

27:34

be up there. So again, you can,

27:36

I think it can be

27:38

overwhelming to think about all the things you

27:41

could do to plan. Realistically,

27:43

there's just a few core things. Make

27:45

sure there'd be money there when

27:47

you pass away, either through life insurance or

27:50

savings or whatever that might be. Get

27:52

the legal documents that's gonna make it easier

27:54

for your family and then share the wishes

27:57

that you want to make sure are honored. And yeah.

27:59

Yes, put it in writing because that wine

28:01

field conversation you have about this Saturday night is

28:04

not going to stick with you in 20 years.

28:07

Erin, thank you so much for this. And if

28:09

you do buy caskets in

28:11

bulk at Costco, you end up on

28:13

a list somewhere. You definitely do. Yeah,

28:16

I'm definitely on some government watch list

28:18

for the amount that I Google death-related

28:20

topics. That's

28:24

Erin Burry, the co-founder of

28:26

Willful. It's a digital estate

28:28

planning app. Thanks to

28:30

Erin for sharing her expert knowledge with

28:32

us and you can find more information

28:34

about Willful at Willful.co.

28:38

Thanks again to Cheryl for writing in

28:40

and sharing her story. Can't

28:42

have been easy. If

28:44

you have a money problem or just a

28:47

suggestion for something we should cover,

28:49

we want to hear from you. You

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29:38

Heath-Rollings. This episode was written and

29:40

produced by Alison Broughman and Stephanie

29:42

Phillips. Sound design was

29:44

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29:46

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