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2:55

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3:36

right, we're

3:37

taping this part

3:40

of the podcast. It

3:49

is late Tuesday morning. Logan Murdock

3:52

from the ringers here. You can hear him on the real

3:53

ones. You can read

3:56

him on the ringer.com. He did a piece about Janglin

3:58

Brown today that he spent some time

4:00

It's a feature, some

4:03

really good quotes from a lot of different people. Congrats

4:05

on the piece. First of all, you realize

4:07

that Celtics Nation

4:10

is in a tizzy right now. Now everybody's worried

4:12

Jaylen Brown's going to leave.

4:13

That was the

4:15

short takeaway was, oh my God, Jaylen Brown is going

4:17

to leave. But, you know, lost

4:20

in that whole thing was this is a really good piece

4:22

with a really good interview and the kind of access

4:24

and quotes that we don't see as much

4:26

anymore. And I know you and I have talked about this

4:28

offline, how hard it is to just

4:31

get athletes to talk in 2023 and

4:33

just to be honest about what's going on with them. So

4:35

what was your process just trying to get him to talk?

4:38

Well, full

4:40

transparency, I covered, uh, Jalen

4:42

a little bit when he was at Cal. Um,

4:44

I was interning,

4:45

you know, but I got to know him a little bit and,

4:47

uh, I think that's where the story starts. So where

4:50

it started, you know, my relationship with him started

4:53

when he was at Cal, but honestly starting

4:55

this piece was at Cal where

4:58

you know talked to a couple of his professors and

5:00

just people that knew him around

5:02

around campus because that's kind of where he got

5:04

his mindset in terms of you know

5:06

being an organizer and just seeing

5:08

himself beyond the game. You

5:11

know it started with his mom Michelle but

5:13

it was it was really cultivated in his one

5:15

year at Berkeley because it really showed him

5:17

that you know he wanted it

5:19

showed him that he wanted to be more than the game

5:22

And so that's where I kind of started. And then I think

5:24

I started this in this process and reporting

5:26

it out in November and talked

5:29

to him in January. And it was just quite

5:31

frankly, the hardest piece I've ever done. But

5:33

it was really, it

5:37

was interesting getting in his head for four months

5:39

and he's a really, really, really

5:41

deep person. And it

5:43

was just one of those pieces

5:44

where you had to have layers in

5:46

order to be able to tell the Jaylen Brown story.

5:49

So there's

5:51

two things going on with him that concern

5:53

me as a fan. And I, you know, I'm a

5:55

huge Jaylen Brown fan. But

5:57

the KD trade rumors popped up

5:59

last summer. And the team

6:01

never publicly said, we're not trading Jaylen

6:03

Brown. This is stupid. Wise is out there. And I

6:05

was doing podcasts at the time

6:08

saying they should come out and say, this

6:10

is bullshit. We're not trading Jaylen Brown. We want to

6:12

build around Tatum and Jaylen, but

6:14

in the Celtics van universe, it

6:17

became a big debate, which do this. Wait,

6:19

that's crazy. You wouldn't trade Jaylen Brown for Kevin

6:21

Duran. He's one of the 15 best players of all time.

6:24

So that became a whole dialogue that I think he

6:26

was really aware of. And I don't

6:29

think it was ever kind of shut

6:31

down to his satisfaction. So you had that piece.

6:34

And then you had the Oduka piece, who was somebody

6:36

that I think he really liked playing for,

6:38

and I think the lack

6:40

of transparency about how that was

6:42

handled, which I think from an organizational

6:45

standpoint, they couldn't really be that transparent

6:47

because I think there was some HR stuff and some legal

6:50

stuff. So the details were a little sparse,

6:52

even for the players. But

6:53

I think those two things together put

6:56

this, this start of the season,

6:58

even though the Celtics were playing well, it just gave

7:00

it a weird vibe. And now that they're

7:03

not playing well, it's starting to come out. There's a New York

7:05

Times piece last week, an interview with

7:07

him that he had, he had some tough quotes

7:09

about the city of Boston and the fans. And then

7:11

in this piece too,

7:13

same thing, it seems like he's struggling with

7:16

his identity as a member of the Celtics and

7:18

whether, you know, the, the loyalty

7:20

factors. Then you go backwards

7:23

with the history of the franchise. Ray Allen,

7:25

that's why he left. They were gonna trade him. He found out they

7:27

were gonna trade him in 2012, ends

7:29

up signing with Miami.

7:31

The way Isaiah Thomas was treated in 2017. I

7:35

think these guys are aware, like as great of an organization

7:38

as this is, there is that

7:40

the moment we can turn you into a better asset,

7:43

we might. And it does seem like it

7:45

affected him.

7:46

Well, there's a third thing to that,

7:48

Bill, which is all of that stuff you talked

7:50

about going on in the summertime. That goes

7:52

on weeks after he led the, he

7:55

helped lead the Celtics to a title,

7:57

or not to a title, excuse me, to a finals run.

8:00

And he's thinking, hey,

8:02

this is the best team that

8:04

we have had in years, counting the

8:07

years that we had Kyrie. I got us to

8:09

help get us to the finals alongside Tatum

8:11

and Smart and M.A. with this guy.

8:14

And now you guys are talking about trading me on top of

8:16

the fact that I was a

8:18

rookie when you guys did what you did to Isaiah

8:21

Thomas. I remember seeing that

8:23

firsthand, I'm speaking for

8:26

Jalen in this. And he's seen this world

8:28

where, you know, I might not, I

8:30

am a, I am a asset in

8:33

involved in the institution rather than somebody

8:35

that is a partner and trying to get us titles.

8:38

And it's funny because it didn't really make the piece, but

8:41

to your point about the New York Times article and his

8:43

relationship with Boston, it's interesting because

8:45

he already came when I talked to

8:47

him, he had already come in

8:49

with the notion of,

8:52

you know, just just having just feeling

8:55

weird about going to Boston based on all

8:57

the things that he heard. Just in my experience.

9:00

Pass baggage. Just things like that.

9:02

Pass baggage and things like that. So he was already getting that. And

9:04

I feel like his time in Boston has

9:06

been just, it's been filled

9:08

with conflictions because first

9:11

off he thought that he should be a starter

9:14

right away. And he did start in the beginning, but his

9:16

playing time would dwindle. And

9:19

he's over here looking at Ben

9:21

Simmons and Philly. looking at Ingram

9:26

and he was in LA at that point, but he's comparing

9:28

himself to these other guys like, I think I'm better

9:31

than them. Why am I not getting this opportunity?

9:33

And all of these things are happening on

9:36

top of the fact that he's getting dangled for

9:38

when Anthony Davis is on the market. Hey,

9:40

there's Jalen Brown. He's a good asset. Or

9:42

when Kawhi Leonard is there, he's always, you

9:45

know, Paul George was another one. Yeah. He

9:47

was in every, he was always the one that got

9:49

thrown in a rumor, whether it

9:51

was true or untrue. I think from his standpoint,

9:54

especially with the KD thing.

9:56

I think they made a real mistake organizationally,

9:59

not just coming out.

10:00

right away and being like, Hey, we're not trading

10:02

Jaylen Brown. We love Jaylen Brown. We

10:04

want to build around him and tatum. Those are our guys.

10:06

And that's it.

10:07

Don't believe any stories about this.

10:09

But they never said anything. I thought, I don't know. I

10:11

didn't think it was well handled. Well,

10:14

I don't think it was either. I mean, considering the

10:16

fact that you at least publicly say you

10:18

consider him a, uh, a franchise

10:20

star. And I

10:22

think I really do think, um, this

10:25

summer was a big, big turning point because

10:27

it was yet another time after he is a friend,

10:29

after Jalen has become this franchise

10:31

cornerstone and then to be in trade

10:33

rumors. Because it's one thing to be a young guy and be in trade

10:36

rumors, because that's just the game. But when after

10:38

you lead a franchise to a

10:40

tight, or to a, I keep saying tight, every

10:43

time, if you lead a franchise to

10:45

the finals, you expect to have

10:47

some level of respect. And, you know,

10:50

that Kevin Durant thing happened a

10:52

couple of weeks after that finals appearance.

10:55

Oh yeah.

10:56

And he's thinking like another person

10:58

you guys think is better than me on top

11:00

of the other, other things that I, other conflictions

11:03

I have with this organization. So it's, it's,

11:06

it's been a tough go for, for Jalen. And,

11:08

you know, it also- Well, wait, wait, to be fair, to

11:11

be fair on that trade thing,

11:13

we don't know if they ever talked to the nets about

11:15

an actual trade, but the problem is it was out

11:17

there that they were talking

11:19

or they were circling. And that's when you just have to squash

11:22

it. And the fact that they didn't squash it in

11:24

any way and just let it kind of linger and

11:27

then become a debate within the fan base and

11:29

on the media and on talk radio. That's

11:32

where I think, I think they lost the narrative

11:34

a little bit. Yeah, for sure.

11:36

And now it's, you know, and this

11:38

this started to come out as they try to make another

11:40

playoff run, you know, and this is just

11:42

going to be, it's going to be a tough thing overall for

11:45

the Celtics. And it's always something that tends to happen

11:47

with them. Um, you know, say what you want

11:49

about other organizations, but the

11:52

Celtics are getting a bit of a reputation that

11:54

they don't take care of of their stars,

11:56

which is something that the rest of the league

11:58

sees. now they develop real really well. They

12:01

draft really, really well. But I think

12:03

the next step for the Celtics, and they have a newer regime,

12:05

this is not the Danny Ains regime, but

12:08

they have an opportunity or what they should be

12:10

doing is showing the rest of the league, nah,

12:12

we take care of our stars within the fabric

12:14

of this organization. And they're

12:16

kind of fumbling the ball on that, at least publicly.

12:20

Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, Danny left.

12:22

I think Danny had the reputation. It was always

12:25

the joke of Danny would trade his

12:27

mother if he could get five more wins. And that And that

12:29

was just a mentality that nobody was safe

12:31

at any time.

12:33

But he hasn't been there for a year and

12:35

a half. And that's, that's what was so confusing

12:37

to me as, as a Celtics fan. And somebody

12:40

who's followed this franchise for a long time that, you

12:42

know, Brian already had enough baggage

12:45

with the fact that Tatum was a little bit of the favorite

12:47

son, right? Brown is a little bit of a middle child

12:49

syndrome with

12:50

Brown and it's always been Tatum. Tatum is the most

12:52

popular guy in Boston. He is. He's

12:55

the most popular athlete. And once Brady

12:57

left,

12:58

Tatum really last year became

13:00

the guy and Brown has been, you

13:03

know, his sidekick's the

13:05

wrong word, but like his running mate.

13:07

But it was always

13:08

Tatum and then- I always compare it to

13:10

Tribe Called Quest. Like it's, Tatum

13:13

is Q-Tip and Jalen

13:16

Brown is Five Dog, right? Like Five Dog is

13:18

the one, like he can rap with

13:21

anybody. But Q-Tip is always the face

13:23

of Tribe Called Quest. And I really got that

13:25

comparison when I went out to Boston

13:28

that

13:29

I think Jaylen is really, really respected.

13:31

And I think people really know what Jaylen

13:33

brings to the table. But you're right.

13:36

Jason is the one. He is the one.

13:39

And I think also because Jaylen embraces that in

13:41

a way, I don't think, excuse

13:43

me, I keep getting the J's wrong. But Jason embraces

13:46

that more. He shows more

13:48

of himself than JB does. And

13:51

I think that that kind of manifests all the way around

13:54

is that, you know,

13:56

I think that

13:57

Jaylen can. Be

14:00

one of those guys, but he has to embrace and show himself

14:02

a bit more and I don't think he necessarily Does

14:05

that and I think that that really manifests

14:07

in how the city portrays both of them

14:10

well,

14:10

one of the reasons and I was saying this last summer

14:12

that I thought it was so important to keep him and invest

14:15

in Them and make him happy is This

14:18

is one of these rare guys Young

14:20

black guy who wants to come in and be part of the city

14:22

and invest in the city and do all these

14:25

charitable things And really try to make an impact

14:27

on the city which, you know, given

14:29

the history and stuff is something I think the city

14:32

that,

14:32

that, that's like fantastic that

14:34

he fell out of the sky. Basically, there's

14:36

a money piece of this

14:38

that

14:38

you didn't really go into a hundred percent

14:40

in the story because it's, it's kind

14:42

of in flux because if he makes the all MBA

14:44

team this year, which is very possible, then

14:47

the money thing suddenly doesn't become a problem.

14:49

But right now they signed him to a really good extension

14:52

a couple of years ago. It's

14:54

like 25 a year, but it's not the It

14:56

limits because of the CBA kind

14:58

of limits the extension they can get. And this is why

15:01

from about a year ago, I

15:03

think the organization started to become a little

15:05

concerned that he might jump because

15:07

he could just make more money if

15:10

you're Houston has, you know, cap space

15:12

or name a team that all of

15:14

a sudden the year he becomes a free agent, just has the

15:16

cap space. They can just sign him for more

15:18

than the Celtics can, can pay him.

15:20

Now

15:21

the catch is if he makes the RMB 18

15:23

this year,

15:24

he's eligible for a five five for 190

15:26

and, or

15:28

I'm sorry, five for 290, which

15:31

is way more than anyone else can pay for him. So

15:35

weirdly, it all comes down to if he's a third

15:37

team, all MBA forward, he'll

15:39

get the money. And then it becomes a question

15:41

of do they want to pay him and Tatum and combined,

15:44

you know, 90, 95 million a year and

15:47

now you're in warrior's land.

15:49

Or is that your reason maybe to trade

15:51

him and make him a franchise guy somewhere

15:53

else. Logan, I

15:57

have Jaylen as my third

15:59

Timon before. if he's eligible there. He's played

16:01

more forward than guard this year. And I

16:03

think he's the logical pick to be one of the six forwards.

16:06

If season ended today, it might change. But

16:08

if he gets that money, do you feel like that changes anything?

16:12

I feel,

16:14

see, even as you talk about it, I'm kind

16:16

of on the fence about it because you say all these things

16:18

about money and analytics

16:21

and also the contract situation. But I think

16:23

that all Jalen wants to know is that he matters

16:25

within the organization. I

16:27

think that there's a bigger thing here, which

16:29

is, I mean, I'm sure he'll sign for

16:32

as much money as he can. That's

16:35

generational wealth. But I

16:37

think the key here is, I think

16:39

he wants to feel like he's a partner in this.

16:42

I think he's always wanted to feel like that. I feel like

16:44

he thinks that, man, I'm a guy that

16:47

has played

16:49

in big moments for this organization. I've I've

16:53

been a part of, I've been an integral part

16:55

of a lot of different postseason runs. I

16:57

just want my due. I don't want to lead

17:01

us to a deep postseason run and

17:03

then be the subject of trade rumors. And I don't

17:05

feel like at least publicly you guys have my back.

17:08

I think it's bigger than just the monetary

17:10

thing. Now the monetary thing is great. And I'm sure

17:12

that he will be really, really

17:14

happy to get the bag. But

17:17

I think it's more than that. I think it's more of the respect

17:19

thing when it comes to Jaylen, especially

17:21

as it pertains to his relationship with the, with

17:24

the Boston Celtics.

17:26

I 100% agree with you. And I think they misjudged

17:28

it. I'm actually surprised

17:30

that they didn't see this last summer. I

17:32

don't get it.

17:34

This was pretty easy to see because if

17:36

you, if you were just coming out of last summer and

17:38

you said, which roster would you want of any roster

17:41

in the league? You would pick the Celtics.

17:43

100%. All of a sudden,

17:46

KD becomes available.

17:48

And I'll never know what

17:50

actually happened, but I am a little suspicious

17:52

of the nets. It's in their interest, right? If

17:55

KD's getting, he's already demanding a

17:57

trade

17:58

for them to float out of Boston thing.

18:00

All that does is undermine Boston. It's actually a

18:03

really smart competitive move. I

18:05

have never been able to get to the answer whether they

18:07

actually talk trade with them or not.

18:09

And you could say, you know, Lake

18:11

up wins the title, Wick was, Lake

18:14

up was once in Wick's ownership group. Lake

18:17

gets one over him. He's definitely puffing his chest

18:19

after the finals. And maybe you're like, oh

18:21

my God, we got to beat these guys. Wait, we

18:23

can get Kevin Duran. You kind of lose perspective

18:26

for a second. but

18:28

the whole thing bums me out. And it really

18:30

makes me wonder in

18:32

this day and age, whether you can keep a young core

18:35

together anymore. You know, like OKC

18:37

probably did it the longest

18:39

with DeRant and Westbrook, but

18:41

even that hard it only lasted a couple years he

18:43

left and DeRant finally wanted to get away from Westbrook.

18:46

But for the most part,

18:47

I do wonder if that the tribe called Quest

18:49

analogy is that just the way it's

18:52

gonna be. There's only room for one in every city.

18:54

There's only room for one franchise guy

18:56

and people are always gonna gravitate to it.

18:58

I'd rather be the franchise guy over here

19:01

than

19:01

be part of something greater if I feel like I

19:03

could be traded at any time.

19:05

And I wouldn't blame them for that either.

19:07

Yeah, no, it's

19:10

a tough balance because

19:13

I think that like, I think Jalen wants to,

19:16

I don't think Jalen is mad at his

19:18

role on the team necessarily.

19:20

No, he's been awesome this year. He's been awesome.

19:22

And no, I just mean like his role on the team. We just

19:24

talked about how,

19:27

you know, how he, there's only room for one guy.

19:29

I don't necessarily think that Jaylen

19:31

necessarily feels that way in Boston.

19:33

I think he just, I think he feels slighted

19:35

over the fact that, hey, you

19:38

know, I've been doing this great work. I should

19:40

just, I shouldn't be having to deal with all

19:42

of these rumors. I think that's where it goes

19:44

down to, you know, like- And he's right,

19:46

by the way. He's 100% right. And

19:48

like, I talked to him specifically, like, what is your

19:51

relationship with, with

19:54

Jason Tatum and how do you guys coexist? He says

19:56

on the floor, like we don't have no arguments. We're

19:58

probably different people, but it's all straight. And

20:00

not only did I ask him that, I asked Marcus

20:03

Smart, who I've increasingly

20:05

have been seeing, like he is that heartbeat of that

20:08

locker room, but he knows everything, right? He kind of keeps

20:10

that in check. And he's the one that's

20:12

telling me, no, man, they're cool, they're fine. It's

20:15

not a thing where it's him versus

20:17

them putting them

20:19

against each other. I think that's

20:22

more of a, I think that's more of, I

20:26

don't think that is, I think that narrative

20:28

is overblown. I think that they are two

20:31

guys that can play with each other for a

20:33

long time. But I think

20:35

that it's a bigger thing about, it's

20:37

about Jaylen relationship

20:39

with management and not necessarily his

20:41

relationship and how he can go and just with Tatum. I

20:44

think that they are fine. I think that it's a bigger

20:46

thing of a respect thing.

20:49

The

20:49

Jaylen and Jason

20:51

thing was always fine.

20:52

I think anytime the team wasn't

20:54

playing well, that became the media story

20:57

of can these guys coexist? Can

20:59

you have to, does it make sense to have them both? But

21:02

it was always media stuff, it was never real.

21:04

The stuff last summer was real.

21:06

The fact that they didn't shut that shit down immediately.

21:10

You got quotes from a variety

21:12

of people in this piece, including Kyrie

21:15

Irving. I

21:19

gotta say, talk pretty eloquently about the

21:22

problems with the year two Celtics, the year

21:24

he was there, about how they had too many guys

21:26

and too much competition, and nobody

21:28

pulling each other because

21:30

that was exactly what I watched that whole season. They

21:32

just had too many guys and too many guys wanted

21:35

a piece of the pie and

21:37

you could feel it the whole year and it never resolved

21:39

itself. And I thought it was interesting that he actually

21:42

came out and said, I also thought it was interesting that Jaylen

21:45

admitted that he didn't get along with Kyrie at all

21:47

that second year. And then they belatedly

21:49

have become friends, but we're not friends

21:51

when they play together because we saw that too, but

21:53

nobody wanted to admit that either. Yeah,

21:56

I think that it's,

21:58

I talked to Kyrie and- January before

22:00

I went out to Boston. And it was just,

22:03

I didn't know kind of how he was going to answer

22:05

the questions or if he was going to answer them at all.

22:08

And I was really just, I was just

22:10

as an eye opener just how,

22:12

just how, you

22:14

know, I don't know. He was just

22:16

very open with his thoughts on that. And it kind of made

22:18

sense when you look in retrospect, because there

22:20

were two things at play with those 18, 19 Celtics,

22:23

which is all these young guys are

22:25

really excited from the year before. the

22:27

Terry Roziers, the Jalen Browns, they all

22:29

think, hey, man, we won with this court.

22:32

This court can win, but they are still having

22:34

to have problems with their role

22:36

because they see... It was very much

22:38

of a divide between young and old on that team,

22:42

from my vantage point. And that

22:46

was the one thing. And the second thing is Kyrie,

22:49

you could tell, especially towards the end of that season, his mind

22:51

just wasn't on the game. It

22:53

wasn't on what were the tasks was

22:56

at hand. And you know, I mean,

22:58

you can tell because he completely shit the bed

23:00

of the Milwaukee series. Didn't seem like he gave a shit. Exactly.

23:03

We could tell that his mind was somewhere

23:07

else and that he was trying to figure

23:09

that out. And, you know, this didn't really

23:11

make the story, but he wasn't the leader that he wanted

23:13

to be in Boston. He quite

23:15

frankly wasn't. And I think that there was another something

23:19

else interesting that I got that didn't really make the story was

23:21

Marcus Smart. And I asked Marcus,

23:23

like, it seems like, because I was at the Net

23:25

Celtics game in January, like

23:27

I think it was the last game that Kyrie played with

23:29

the Nets, but I asked Marcus,

23:32

like, how do you guys feel about Kyrie

23:35

right now? And he basically called Kyrie

23:37

a brother and that he is within the fabric

23:39

of, you know, our team. So,

23:42

and it's interesting, you

23:44

know, his relationship, Kyrie's relationship

23:47

with Boston and his relationship,

23:49

you know, with the

23:52

guys that are the guys in Boston now and Tatum

23:55

and Brown

23:58

and all of these guys. I think that

24:00

they see him as a fabric of this and I think

24:03

that there's been some, you know, there's been some healing

24:05

going on. I know not with the city of Boston and Kyrie necessarily,

24:08

but with the people on that Celtics team, the

24:10

players, I think that they see Kyrie in

24:12

a different light now. Kyrie, and now

24:14

I think I don't know exactly why

24:17

they see that now, but I think a lot of it has

24:19

to be, Kyrie has just been

24:21

at least internally honest

24:24

about his role and how it didn't

24:27

work out in Boston during that time.

24:30

Well,

24:30

I give him credit for that. The Hayward

24:32

thing was a big piece of that season because

24:36

he was the third best forward on that team. And

24:38

Stevens really gave him a lot of rope and

24:40

a lot of leeway. He was coming back off that terrible

24:42

ankle injury.

24:43

And I think that undermined a lot of this,

24:46

too, because he just wasn't one of their best five

24:48

guys, but was getting played like it. But

24:50

I think that messed some stuff, too. We'll

24:53

see what happens with this Jalen thing. It's funny. I

24:55

talked about this. I hadn't even read your piece yet

24:57

on Sunday's pod with Resillo because

24:59

it just felt like

25:02

the tea leaves were floating a certain way where I was like,

25:04

I don't know if he's going to be on the team next year. He might

25:06

be on the team for the next 12 years, but

25:09

it does feel like we are at a fork

25:11

in the road. This Jaylen thing. And I think,

25:13

I think it's important because what him

25:15

and Tatum have

25:16

as a combo is so rare, not just

25:18

for

25:19

this generation of players, but even historically,

25:22

like just two guys playing together for a long

25:24

time and trying to win titles together and having some

25:26

losses and coming back and, you

25:29

know, lifting each other up, which is what Jalen

25:31

has been doing a lot this year. There's games and Tatum

25:33

doesn't have it. And Jalen just has carried

25:35

the team over and over again. That's why

25:37

I think he has been one of the best 15 guys

25:39

in the league. Um, maybe at

25:42

least 20.

25:43

Um, and that's why the all MBA

25:45

thing will be fascinating because you got, you

25:48

have Tatum and you have Yannis, they're gonna be first team,

25:50

you're going to have Butler and Mark

25:53

and in and Randall, I think are all in. And then

25:55

that six forward spot is basically between

25:57

Jalen Siakam and DeRozan. I

25:59

think Jaylen.

26:00

has the best case as teams doing the best.

26:02

He has the biggest load

26:04

and the two guys together, Tatum and Brown,

26:06

like that. Every time they play anybody, they're

26:08

like Tatum and Brown are coming to town tonight. So,

26:11

you

26:11

know, I do think he has a chance. Wait, before

26:13

we go,

26:16

give me 90 seconds on the dubs. You're

26:18

in the Bay.

26:19

Um, I saw them a person last week

26:21

and did my whole thing about it. I just don't think they have

26:23

it. I don't think there is an on off switch with this

26:25

team. The naysayers would say, well, just

26:28

wait. We got to see Wiggins and Peyton, but

26:30

I don't think they have it. I think the league's gotten better

26:32

and they've gotten worse. What do you see? I know you're talking about

26:35

this on real worlds with Rajah all

26:37

the time, but what are you seeing? I don't, I don't,

26:40

it's interesting because last year I remember

26:42

seeing them. I was at the game when the

26:44

season opener against the Lakers last year and

26:46

you could just see a magic, the magic was back

26:49

for that night. There's no magic this season, you

26:51

know, there's no good vibes. There's

26:53

no, um, the one thing that I always

26:55

said was last year, the Warriors got

26:57

all the right wins. Now, did they have the best

27:00

record? No, but they always

27:02

beat the Utahs, right? They

27:05

beat the Celtics, or they beat the Celtics, and

27:07

they beat the Nets in Brooklyn,

27:09

you know? And they had all the right wins. This

27:12

year, they don't have the right wins, and they can't

27:14

win on the road. There's just too much bad

27:16

juju going on. I think one of the- And they get

27:18

their ass kicked in some of these games. They

27:21

get their asses kicked. And there's

27:23

no rhyme or reason for it. And then here's another thing.

27:25

This will tell you the most you could say about a Warriors

27:28

season. That game in Memphis really showed

27:30

me a lot. Not the last game, but the game before

27:32

where Draymond Green does this big roll

27:35

out about how he says, how he

27:37

says, Dylan Brooks just

27:39

doesn't have it. He goes in on Dylan Brooks the morning

27:41

of the game and then they get

27:43

punched in the mouth, right? Like that, usually

27:46

that doesn't happen. If Draymond says something

27:48

or if they usually have a locked in focus

27:50

and they systematically beat their opponent on the road.

27:52

That was prime opportunity

27:54

for the Warriors to have one of those signature wins and they got

27:57

punched in the mouth. I only got punched in the mouth. Killin'

27:59

broo- was the one doing the punching in

28:01

the mouth. And that usually doesn't happen with

28:04

the Warriors. And I think that there's going to have

28:06

to be, it's gonna be an interesting summer.

28:08

I think there's gonna be a lot of changes this summer. And

28:10

it's just gonna be interesting how they look next season.

28:13

That's my a hundred

28:15

and something seconds for it.

28:18

Listen, the law of the NBA is you can be

28:20

bullies if you can back it up.

28:22

But we've also seen a lot of teams over the years

28:25

that

28:26

were kind of like washed up bullies, still trying

28:28

to be bullies. and it gets ugly every time. They got a

28:30

lot of washed up bully vibes right

28:32

now, man. How many times you did tell us you

28:34

got four rings? We get it, you know, after

28:36

you're getting your ass whooped. Like,

28:39

how many times are they going to do that? That's

28:41

been the story of the, it's definitely the

28:43

washed, big homie at the

28:45

Rec Center right now telling about what they used to

28:47

be this season. That's been their whole season all year.

28:51

Yeah, it's like the old Sopranos,

28:53

the lowest form of conversation is remember

28:55

when.

28:56

Nobody cares about the four rings. Honestly,

28:58

though, that's why that punch was so vital

29:01

the beginning of the season. That's why it was so

29:03

important, because

29:07

it messed up the whole

29:09

rest of what the season was going to

29:11

be. It was just an unwanted distraction, and

29:13

that set the tone for the rest of the season.

29:16

That's exactly what happened.

29:18

Yeah, it's too bad. I agree with you. I think there's

29:20

gonna be a lot of changes. And

29:23

Bob Myers, it seems

29:25

like he's on his way out. These

29:27

stories keep leaking about what's going to happen with him.

29:29

And it's like, I think we kind of have a feel

29:31

for what's going to happen. Um, Clay's

29:33

on his last year, making just an insane

29:35

amount of money for what the production is

29:38

the pool contract hasn't even started yet. And

29:40

we drafted it on the worst contracts draft

29:43

last week on this podcast. And then

29:45

Draymond,

29:46

Draymond, people

29:49

seem to think he's going to leave, but I don't know where

29:51

he's getting 27 million next season. Dremont's

29:53

pretty much just like over this season

29:55

after what happened in the preseason has just been rolling

29:58

out the red carpet for him to leave. You know, he...

30:00

of just puts little nuggets out there about even

30:02

on his podcast or whatever he does. It seems

30:04

like he's kind of, you know,

30:06

res, this just resigns to the fact

30:08

that he's about to dip. It's, it's run its course. So

30:10

we'll see, but it's going to be interesting

30:13

if he does leave next year. I, there's

30:15

a lot of teams that I kind of want him to go on.

30:17

I'm very intrigued about where

30:19

he goes and just like, I'm really intrigued

30:22

to see what fuck you, Draymond looks like at this

30:24

age. I'm I'm excited.

30:27

Or whether it's even possible. The game I went to last

30:29

week, he didn't have the same lift anymore, which,

30:31

and usually the lift doesn't come back. He was also in LA,

30:33

Bill.

30:33

He was also in LA. Oh, good

30:35

point, Logan. See, this is

30:38

your veteran experience here. I

30:40

don't know what's gonna happen with that team next year, but I guarantee

30:43

you half the guys will be different.

30:45

And they're gonna probably blow it up into

30:47

different ways. The shame of it is Steph's been,

30:50

you know, he's looked like vintage Steph

30:52

a lot of these nights and he just doesn't have the help. Okay.

30:56

Logan Murdock. Great story. Good

30:58

to see some old school journalism on the wringer.

31:00

I enjoyed it. Um, and I'll see

31:02

you next week in LA cause we're doing a rewatch

31:04

of us together. I won't spoil the movie, but let's

31:07

get it. See you soon, bud. This

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32:51

right, here with Damon and Affleck together. This

32:53

is the first time I've done pods

32:56

and shows with both of you, but never together. It's

32:58

been a, this is decided

33:01

by ourselves, just wasn't quite interesting.

33:04

The last time, yeah, I guess

33:06

we've, the last time we did an interview together,

33:08

there weren't such a thing as podcasts. Right.

33:11

That's true. But you guys are back, like you

33:13

formed this company, made

33:16

a movie.

33:17

So I screened the movie and I was talking

33:19

to Ben after and he was saying he hit

33:22

a point in his life where he just wanted to work with his

33:24

friends, which I thought was a really interesting

33:26

way to put it. What took you guys

33:28

so long to realize like, wait a second, this

33:30

guy's my brother, why don't we just do more stuff

33:32

together?

33:33

It's an interesting question when you're talking about that. It's like,

33:35

I mean, we had, we got, I think

33:37

there's a couple of things. One is that, you

33:40

know, you're an actor and you've just

33:42

become very conditioned to the idea

33:44

that it's very tenuous, it's kind of hand to mouth,

33:46

the phone could stop bringing it anytime. So you

33:48

get the opportunity, somebody offers

33:51

you a job. It's just almost impossible

33:53

to say no, especially if it's like some director you've

33:55

always wanted to work with or whatever. So there was when we- Plus

33:57

you're scrapping for jobs for years. So

33:59

you're a hunk? So then all of a sudden, so you don't

34:01

ever want, you become almost compulsive, you don't

34:03

want to stop. And so Matt and I both

34:06

started getting those kinds of opportunities at the same time.

34:08

And we were kind of off like a shot, like just

34:11

kind of trying to get while the getting was good, you know, with

34:13

the idea that this mix could be gone tomorrow. And

34:16

also there was definitely kind of, I think an idea that

34:18

like, hey, okay, you know, you guys,

34:20

this was successful, but you don't want to be

34:22

the Laurel and Hardy thing. You got to have your own thing too.

34:24

And you know, all of this various ideas

34:27

about how you do this thing. And it

34:30

didn't feel like, oh, you know, I mean, I can

34:32

see from the outside, it's like they're not doing

34:34

movies together. But it was like we

34:36

were hanging out and talking to show them, showing them all my movies.

34:39

So in fact, you're kind of working together. You

34:41

have a life. Yeah,

34:41

we had a company together. Yeah, we were working

34:43

together. We just hadn't been in something.

34:46

And then we did The Last Duel and

34:48

wrote it. And the experience

34:51

was so fun and rewarding. And

34:53

I realized having collaborated

34:55

with other people in the interim

34:57

period, you know, periodically, in all kinds of

34:59

ways, like, wow, we really

35:02

have a great collaboration. I love working with this guy,

35:04

and I love hanging out with him. And you get older

35:06

and you have kids and you have a life, and it's like, you

35:08

gotta find a reason. You don't get to just kind of

35:10

hang with your buddies on the couch every day, like you take

35:12

that for granted and play video games. There

35:14

has to be a reason you gotta leave the house and go do something

35:17

and it's your job. And so- And

35:19

also, I think that, you know,

35:20

my dad died at the end of 2017, not to get too macabre,

35:23

but, you know, he was

35:26

very close to Ben, and he obviously

35:28

very close to me. And that

35:31

was a definite perspective shift, right?

35:33

Where you go like, this isn't promised

35:36

to any of us and it doesn't go on forever. And

35:39

if we don't start like getting

35:41

proactive about working together, we're not gonna

35:43

work together. It's just gonna be, you

35:46

know, and what an insane

35:48

opportunity to

35:49

even have, like to be

35:52

able to work together at this stage of our lives

35:54

and careers is fucking amazing. So

35:56

why not? rather do, you know,

35:59

something.

36:00

that I don't like whatever isn't afforded

36:02

as much like status or wrecking you know like

36:05

with Matt then something you know bigger

36:07

and fancier with someone else unfortunately that's not the

36:09

case I'm actually riding his coattails but just

36:12

saying like that's the truth I

36:14

thought like I that's the quality of

36:16

it is the piece and it's Jason and

36:19

Chris Tucker and Violet like if you can work with

36:21

great people who are good people too

36:23

you know it's so

36:25

much more rewarding personally and

36:28

and professionally and I mean not to I mentioned, if somebody's

36:30

just your best friend, you have a shorthand with you, you just want to

36:32

hang out with. I mean, the only thing I can imagine me better

36:34

is working with your kids. And I'm

36:36

pretty sure my kids have ruled that out. So.

36:39

You know, it's funny what you mentioned about

36:42

as you get older, because we're all around the same age. When

36:44

you get older, these friends that you have,

36:47

that you just, they're in your life day after day

36:49

after day from college or high school or whatever, and

36:51

then you hit your 20s, same thing. Then

36:53

as you get older, you're

36:55

like, I haven't seen him for a year. I haven't

36:57

seen him for a year and a half. and time fight, you

36:59

almost have to like proactively look for things. Really

37:02

good friends that I love who I haven't seen for

37:04

years.

37:05

And then with texting and stuff, I

37:07

feel like I stay in touch with my closest friends,

37:10

but I don't talk to them. Like in the old days, you

37:12

would just be like, oh, I gotta call Matt. I

37:14

haven't talked to Matt in a while. You would talk for an hour. Well

37:16

that's the thing, the whole like, in our age is people still have Facebook.

37:19

You know what I mean? Like the people still on Facebook, the

37:21

Facebook, I still can see my friends

37:24

and stuff on Facebook. You sort of have the illusion of maintaining

37:26

the relationship,

37:27

because you're aware of what's happening with

37:30

them, but you're not aware of it because you've had that

37:32

interpersonal communication. And I do think

37:34

it's different. It's a way that there's an illusion that social

37:36

media kind of fosters closeness when it also can

37:38

foster a kind of separateness. Yeah,

37:40

it's like

37:42

semi-closeness. Great, but

37:44

there was a couple movies that you almost did. Like

37:46

there were some, what was that Fritz Peterson,

37:49

Mike Kekich movie? You worked

37:51

on that for a while, right? Yeah, we

37:53

had, it wasn't like we were ruling it out. It's

37:56

kind of a function of like what's next, what's available,

37:59

what's happening.

38:00

And we, like you say,

38:02

we had a production company together that was very

38:04

different kind of company than this, which is a sort of

38:07

production companies are basically pass-through companies.

38:09

Yeah. Where you have, you know, the studio

38:11

gets the first option on your stuff and they

38:14

give you money for your assistant and someone to kind of

38:16

develop things, but they own the material and

38:19

versus an agnostic,

38:21

independent, financed company

38:23

that can be, you know, a signatory with the unions

38:25

and do all the things that the studios effectively

38:28

do, in our case,

38:30

with the exception of distribution and marketing. Which is what you

38:32

just started, what was that? Like a year and a half ago,

38:34

two years ago? Yeah. Yeah. I could

38:36

have. So how did that, what unfolded with that?

38:38

How Dream decided to do that? Was that like you were at dinner

38:40

one night after three glasses of wine, just been

38:42

like, eh. No, it came out of this. Can we do this? It

38:44

really came out of this kind of longer conversation

38:47

we were having about what we want in

38:49

our lives. Like really a very

38:52

sober conversation about what

38:55

life, what kind of life we want

38:57

to build for the rest of the road here.

38:59

Yeah. And so. And like,

39:01

from anything, I want to be able to

39:03

have, I can't just be going, you

39:05

know, chasing tax rebates and be acting in

39:07

a movie in, you know, in New Orleans or

39:09

in then in Texas and running around because I'm divorced

39:12

and I have my kids half the time and then cutting

39:14

out a bunch of that time and these years are just

39:16

too important. So it meant that I was really

39:19

open to the idea of like, I can be exclusive to a company

39:21

and go into the office every day and help

39:23

other people make their movies. And yeah,

39:25

periodically, if it's

39:27

for the company, I'll get to direct a movie and

39:29

do this. But it's really like, I

39:31

also wanted to have that lifestyle stability

39:33

and be home for dinner and know that my kids to know

39:35

that I was gonna be there. Not just sort of where's

39:38

his dad's off and back all

39:40

the time. So you guys have an office?

39:42

We do, we do. It's a 9200 Sunset

39:44

Boulevard. Actually, don't mind.

39:47

That's not the address. So

39:50

you pick an office. Do you have an

39:52

office together or

39:54

is it like two separate offices? I live

39:56

in New York now.

40:00

So I'm in and out of LA. It's

40:02

an office with like three

40:04

physical production executives and had a post

40:06

production, visual effects and business

40:09

affairs and lawyers and accountants and comptroller's.

40:11

So how many projects do you guys want to do a year? Like

40:13

how big does this get? Or is this like what's

40:16

the fun in a business? Like a lot of thinking people just ambition

40:19

is always scale,

40:20

like just synonymous.

40:21

And with our business, part of

40:23

what we want to try to do in terms

40:26

of the generating ability to have

40:28

the autonomy and the confidence of our partners

40:30

that we're going to do something good, which is the

40:32

only brand we can aspire to

40:35

really. Hey, make a movie with us. We'll do our best.

40:37

Really make it good. It

40:39

can't just be

40:41

heaping movies out of movies. We want to try to

40:43

do movies we can focus on, but we also want to give

40:46

opportunities to people who are friends

40:48

of ours where, for example, we

40:51

were talking with

40:53

Steven Soderbergh about potentially working

40:55

with him. And this is a guy where you jump

40:57

in a very low lift, you know, it's basically like,

41:00

go ahead. Right. You know what I mean? And that's,

41:02

there's a real joy. Here's your financing. You don't have to

41:04

manage that. You know what I mean? Right,

41:07

right. Cole Hauser's out. He's too famous

41:09

though. I'm kind

41:11

of disturbed by the fact that my wife really

41:13

likes Yellowstone. And the part of me thinks that she's

41:16

really drawn to the romance between Cole

41:18

Hauser and that

41:20

woman who plays his wife who's excellent, her name

41:22

escapes me now, but I kind of feel like,

41:25

wait, you don't like it too much, Beth. Yeah. Yeah.

41:27

Kathy, Kathy Riley, right? It was British by

41:29

the way, which is amazing. She was, her

41:32

first thing was flake. She was awesome. That

41:34

was the first time I remember seeing her in flake. It was like, Oh

41:36

my God, who's this?

41:37

I first saw her in this and I was like, actually

41:39

Jen showed me like a clip off of Instagram

41:42

of a monologue she has in the car with the kid

41:44

about like the ways to become rich.

41:48

And it's, and then

41:50

she was like, Oh, I love this this story of these

41:52

two and I was like wait a minute but that's

41:54

cold with how cool house what do you love

41:57

about it what do you guys get he's

41:59

great at the show. You've worked with like 30 plus

42:02

years and you have all these people pass through your life. It

42:04

must be hilarious or fun to

42:06

watch when somebody belatedly becomes

42:09

big like that. That's the biggest

42:11

TV show we have. To tell you the truth, I was always

42:13

mystified that Cole wasn't a giant

42:15

movie star. We worked

42:17

with him. He was 16. And I'll never forget,

42:20

we were driving. Me too. And

42:22

we were driving out of Bill Ricke or wherever

42:24

we were back into Boston, me and you and that old Cadillac,

42:27

the blue one that you had.

42:28

And we were like, like, all right, we were like leaving set

42:31

for like the first week driving into Cambridge. And

42:34

we're like, all right, none of the guys are around

42:36

from school to, all right, leaving me

42:39

and you out, who's the fucking

42:41

best actor here? And both of us at

42:43

the same time were like, how's it? Yeah,

42:45

I mean, just, I mean, he was, he was- He was raw

42:47

talent. Raw talent, just astonishing.

42:50

And like to take nothing away from like the rest of-

42:52

And the other cast, all good acting. One of them just won

42:54

an Oscar. He never won an Oscar. Brendan

42:56

just won a fucking Oscar. So spectacular. great.

42:59

And I love that guy. And we've always loved

43:01

loved him. It's just the sweetest soul.

43:04

And very deserving. And

43:06

but that's that. So I didn't I don't

43:09

say that to demean the other actors. There's

43:11

great actors. Yeah, movie. It's

43:13

just to say, Anthony and Chris,

43:15

and like, yeah, there's Randall, like, there's a ton of really

43:17

good actors. It's just that from

43:20

the time we saw him, he was teasing

43:22

good hunting. And we were like, this is the guy we want

43:24

to cause great. And he's fabulous

43:27

on that. I mean, you think like he is very

43:30

convincing as that guy. I mean, I think America believes

43:32

he is Rip. You know what I mean? It's

43:34

a, he's a perfect character for

43:36

him. Yeah, for sure. And

43:39

there's also the converse, which is, um, or

43:41

the converse, this is a related phenomenon,

43:44

which is guys that you knew

43:47

when they were, you know, junior or male

43:49

room or whatever, who are now like running

43:51

things. Right. And you're like, wow, that's

43:54

the big boss. That

43:55

happens in sports too. I mean, but

43:57

it happens like I remember Pam Abdi,

43:59

right? and she's running a studio and

44:02

she was working with Danny DeVito

44:04

when I did The Rainmaker 25 years ago. Pam

44:06

and I were like kids together, like in our 20s,

44:09

like met on that movie and like now she's running

44:11

a studio. They're giving people our age that

44:14

much authority. That happens in sports too

44:18

where somebody who is like, you know, the

44:20

video

44:21

manager person on her back. Especially on the Patriots.

44:25

They just keep moving up. I mean, Jimmy Patero,

44:27

we've known for years and years and years and years

44:29

and I always like, first of all, by the way,

44:31

I couldn't think of a better guy to do that job and

44:33

he's an amazing guy. But it does

44:36

trip me out like

44:38

Jimmy runs ESPN. Like he's the boss

44:40

of ESPN. Like, you know what I mean?

44:42

Which just seems like the coolest job in the world,

44:45

you know? And he's the nicest guy, but he's a

44:47

guy when you're, you know, 29 and

44:50

you know, like I was 20, you don't think to yourself, this guy's going

44:52

to run the giant sports network to which

44:54

I aspire and you know, it's or Stuber or

44:56

Sean or like all these guys that we knew.

44:58

Yeah, Sean Bailey, you forever.

45:01

When you guys weren't working together,

45:03

did he ever make a movie that you were like, why

45:06

the fuck didn't he ask me to be

45:08

in that? First of all, he didn't ask me to be in the town. He gave that part

45:10

to Renner. Yeah, I was going to ask about that. What happened with that?

45:12

Didn't ask me to do Argo, which

45:14

I could have crushed the lead in that movie, but

45:16

he took it for himself. Could have, yeah, but I would

45:18

have made less money. I

45:21

guess they didn't pay you to direct it. They didn't know. That

45:24

was the way I was subsidizing that for life.

45:27

Wait, go backwards, because as you know, I love the town.

45:31

So you see Jim, the Jim character, and

45:33

you're like, what the fuck? I'm right here. Let

45:35

me tell you the truth. We couldn't afford Matt Damon.

45:38

You know what I mean? By a country

45:40

mile. Matt Damon costs what the movie

45:42

costs. You know what I mean? Is that true, Matt?

45:45

Back then, yeah. I

45:47

was in the middle of the born run there. I was doing

45:49

really well. But

45:52

the thing about the town, actually, I remember getting

45:54

that script.

45:55

It had a different director. I

45:58

read the script. I thought it was terrible. And

46:01

I remember being on the phone with Patrick, who's been our

46:03

agent for 30 years now. And

46:05

we were just talking about something else like a few weeks

46:07

later. And I was like, what's Ben up to? Because I

46:09

for some reason hadn't talked to Ben. And

46:11

he goes, oh, Ben's going to do that movie The Town. Because

46:13

you were like in Germany doing the more. Yeah,

46:16

I was like, what the, no. I was like, no,

46:18

he can't. What are you talking about? He goes, no, no,

46:20

no, no. He's got a whole take on it. I'm like, he's not doing

46:22

it with it. He goes, no, no, no. He's going to direct it. And

46:24

he's going to rewrite the entire thing. And I went, oh,

46:27

oh, okay. All right. And

46:30

that, but my gut reaction was like,

46:32

this is a disaster, don't let him do it, because

46:34

the script that I'd read was so bad. But he did a comprehensive,

46:37

I mean, he just a page one rewrite on the thing. I

46:40

knew you at that point, because you had done Gone Baby

46:42

Gone, and you were telling me you were

46:44

doing that, and it was Satan Charlestown. And

46:46

I remember we talked about it, and

46:49

you had done Gone Baby Gone, you

46:52

really cared about the authenticity of the accents

46:54

and the people. I mean, there were people in that movie who probably

46:56

never acted again. And I was like,

46:59

if you're doing Charlestown. If you're

47:02

doing Charlestown, you gotta get Charlestown

47:04

correct. Which I think you did, but you

47:06

really put some real thought into every

47:08

piece of that. I mean, I always felt like, look, I really wanted

47:10

to direct.

47:12

And I knew that somebody

47:14

told me like 90% of the directors

47:16

in the DGA who've directed feature films

47:19

only directed one. Now that may be an

47:21

exaggeration, but I don't think it's that

47:23

big an exaggeration. that's like

47:25

it's getting the second movie

47:28

is the really hard thing because you have,

47:30

it's so competitive and it's such an amount of kind

47:33

of trust and commitment who the director is and that

47:36

it's a

47:37

big deal. So, and also by the way, when it got

47:39

me beyond like, I wasn't gonna get any more jobs as

47:41

an actor. So this was really it.

47:43

And I thought like at that point I- So you thought

47:45

that slump was that bad that you were in? Like

47:48

that was like, that's it? You will never be on a poster

47:50

again? The extent to which you're kind of conditioned

47:53

already to see your career as an actor

47:55

as tenuous and

47:58

subject to the whims of the- Fragile it yeah

48:00

and what's hits and

48:02

what doesn't. And

48:04

you're not altogether wrong. And in that sense,

48:06

it was a pretty, like it's

48:08

hard to make it as an unknown in this business

48:10

very hard. It's harder to make it as a known

48:13

that they don't like. It's like, no,

48:15

no, you don't have to come in. We know your work, we just

48:17

don't want you. And that's just a function

48:19

of, because so many people make decisions based

48:21

on, I was talking to Chris Tucker about this yesterday, like

48:24

just who's, you know, so many people suggest we should

48:26

get so and so. And you go, oh, why? What

48:28

do they do? They're in such and such. Will

48:31

you see it?

48:32

No, but I hear it. It's like, just what's cool.

48:34

And what's the thing? What's current is there's a

48:36

real kind of hunger for that. And

48:38

I wasn't cool. I wasn't cool at all.

48:41

Because, you know, I had made some movies that didn't work.

48:43

And I had kind of been, you know,

48:46

in part, you know, my own sort

48:48

of like lack of awareness

48:51

of how sort of or even being

48:53

willingness to be considered like how I come

48:55

off and viewing that as like, in authenticity

48:58

in and of itself. And also just the fact movies

49:00

didn't work,

49:01

meant that I was probably,

49:04

I was much more likely to have a career

49:07

as a director in my opinion. And also I thought, wouldn't

49:09

that be nice? To not have to be out in front of

49:11

it.

49:11

To not have to be out there doing podcasts.

49:14

No, to not have to like to promote

49:17

it, right? And so then you just

49:19

think, well, okay, if it's all on the line

49:21

here, I'm just gonna, I

49:24

have no shame about just playing right to

49:26

my strengths. Like, what do I do best? what's

49:28

the best thing I have to bear here? And

49:30

I'll focus on that. And in my opinion, that was

49:32

like, okay, I love and respect actors.

49:35

I'm gonna make this a performance driven movie.

49:37

I know my brother's brilliant actor and

49:41

I'm gonna center it on his performance,

49:43

and I have the advantage of people not knowing

49:46

who he is as well, so that he can

49:49

surprise the audience. And then I felt

49:51

like I

49:51

understood what it was like in

49:54

my experience to grow up in Boston and

49:56

to try to reproduce that authentically.

49:58

And, you know. That was about it. This

50:01

is my strength. Well, you needed to get, you needed

50:03

to win the creative chops back. From

50:05

the public. Cause

50:07

you'd gone into that US Weekly, Netherland.

50:11

And you can't overstate

50:13

that US Weekly, Nether. And people won't be able

50:15

to relate today cause it's 20 years ago, but it

50:17

was,

50:18

I remember Patrick, I remember being in

50:20

Prague and on the phone with Patrick, cause Ben

50:22

was on the cover of US every week.

50:25

And I remember Ben saying to me, he goes,

50:27

We talked and he was like, I'm in the worst

50:29

place you can be. He goes, I'm selling,

50:32

I can sell magazines and not movie

50:34

tickets.

50:35

It's the fucking worst place

50:37

you can be. They don't pay you for selling magazines

50:39

and you can't get a job. Yeah,

50:42

exactly. And you're also in a football. Patrick

50:44

called the editor of that woman, remember, and begged her,

50:47

begged her, please stop. Please just

50:49

stop.

50:50

And she said, I mean, you can

50:52

imagine, like how the editor of Us

50:55

Weekly would respond to that. You needed to branch

50:57

in a love triangle to save you. Yeah, basically.

51:00

That was what he threw them. They just moved on and that.

51:02

They just put that on. And what else happened was

51:04

the internet, which is that with

51:07

the appetite, it wasn't once a week.

51:09

It was like, what's every 15 minutes? And

51:11

social media, I mean, this is further down there.

51:13

It becomes so diffuse that

51:15

in a weird way,

51:16

it became more difficult to be overexposed

51:19

because there were so many outlets and they

51:22

were like, you know, that back then,

51:24

if there were three magazines and you were on the cover of all

51:26

three every week, it just felt like this was

51:28

the only person you saw and it was overwhelming and they're

51:30

jamming people down their throats, whereas now

51:32

you kind of, you follow who you wanna see, it's more

51:34

bespoke and you- Well, there's way more influencers,

51:37

like starting in 06, you have YouTube, see if the

51:39

YouTube people, then

51:40

you have the Instagram people and the TikTok

51:43

people. Back in the early

51:45

2000s, we had athletes, movie

51:47

stars, musicians and TV actors,

51:49

and that was it for

51:51

our celebrities. And that's what's interesting about, to

51:53

me, like one of the things about this movie is

51:56

that it's the beginning of the

51:58

idea. that a person

52:01

is a brand. Like that would have been a

52:03

strange thing to say. And I'd say, what's

52:05

your brand? My brand, what do you mean? But

52:07

now the brand, now

52:10

everyone's a brand. You're quite

52:12

literally kind of curating your

52:14

brand on Instagram and- You're selling your own coffee

52:16

or- Take for granted that like, what can I, what does

52:18

my brand mean and what

52:21

products, you know, and if like I can, whether I'm

52:23

opening boxes or I'm selling, you know,

52:26

products, you know, The idea is

52:28

to

52:29

establish a brand, an association

52:31

with the self, and then find what

52:34

ways of making money by means of associating

52:37

that brand with a consumer good can I

52:39

profit from and sell to sell

52:42

as a business. And so, I remember, it's a business in a lot

52:44

of ways for a lot of people. And now,

52:47

because that's just taken for granted, so people

52:50

naturally pursue that. If you're

52:52

old and one of those, like when I was a boy,

52:54

people like me are, there's still a certain

52:56

kind of,

52:57

I find it kind of strange,

53:00

the idea that a, because a brand is a fixed thing.

53:02

It's a, it made my view, it's like a product. It's

53:05

for sure. We all think about it with our kids, I'm sure.

53:07

The phone, the selfies, all that

53:09

stuff. You took kind of, you were in the opposite

53:12

place when

53:14

he was going through all that stuff in the 2000s. You

53:16

were, I don't know, you were, I

53:19

don't wanna say avoiding it, but you were making movies

53:21

in different countries and you were

53:24

way more mysterious, which seemed intentional.

53:26

Cause like when Goodwill hunting took off and

53:28

you had a couple celebrity relationships and you were in

53:30

that hole, then that was it. Nobody saw you

53:32

again.

53:33

Yeah, I mean, I think I got lucky on the one

53:35

hand that I just fell in love with the woman who wasn't

53:37

in the business. And so that

53:39

just,

53:40

when your partner is a

53:42

celebrity, it's like, it doesn't

53:44

double the exposure. It's like, it's like, Quinn

53:47

tuples it. Yeah, really, it feels

53:49

exponential and crazy. And I remember living,

53:51

I lived down the street from Ben for, and

53:54

his first wife for years and

53:57

going over there, There were always cars parked

53:59

out. front of his house, not outside

54:01

of my house ever. I walked around that neighborhood. I

54:03

rode my mountain bike around. I never had any problem. Nobody

54:05

ever took my picture. But

54:08

Ben couldn't come out of his house without,

54:10

and a lot of the people were there for his, for

54:14

Jen Garner. Ben was like, she's

54:16

on these magazines you've never heard of in the Midwest

54:19

where people want to know how she parents.

54:21

You know what I mean? It was like the interest in

54:24

them as an entity was just.

54:27

Yeah, some of it is, I

54:29

think people assume

54:32

naturally from outside

54:34

that you have more control over it than you do. Like

54:37

I often see people,

54:38

they'll look at like, you know, whoever's like young

54:41

and cool and now in a relationship or something

54:43

and they'll go, oh, they're out there chasing it

54:45

or flaunting it. And I don't think

54:47

like, no, they're hiding actually. They're running away. They are desperately

54:50

trying to avoid this. And one of the

54:52

reasons why I think people always think I look sad

54:54

or pissed off is because because the pictures that you see,

54:56

it's self-selecting. You only see

54:59

me at the times where I'm standing there with my kids and

55:01

five guys are following me and shouting things, which

55:03

brings a feeling out in you that is not a happy feeling,

55:06

which is leave me and my family the fuck alone.

55:08

Because it's invasive and inappropriate.

55:11

Now, so then if those are the photos you

55:13

see are actually not particularly- And they're like,

55:15

he looks sad. Yeah, like it's sad. What

55:17

about the photos of you taking out the garbage or

55:19

getting a Starbucks? There was a lot of those. I take

55:22

out- There's been getting a Starbucks. Yeah.

55:24

I have no idea why that's interesting to

55:26

anybody. It's not even true to me. Look at me, holding the Starbucks

55:28

in his left hand. The null fucking thing in the world.

55:31

You know what I mean?

55:32

Like, what is, I know I'm not that

55:34

interesting because I'm in it taking

55:36

out the trash. You know, I don't know. I

55:39

think something happens where there is a,

55:41

the perception becomes the

55:43

reality in terms of value where it's like, well, we've seen pictures

55:45

of this person before, we've run them before.

55:47

So this person's the one they want and

55:49

they sell them. Right. Even despite

55:51

the fact that, you know, it was so incredibly

55:54

uneventful and banal and I felt like if

55:56

I can make my life as boring as possible.

55:59

Perhaps this will stop.

56:00

being a part of my life because it really isn't something

56:02

I ever craved or wanted or even liked, like extra

56:04

attention. I'm self-conscious. I don't like

56:07

it. I'm not that comfortable. I prefer

56:09

to. That's why I would be happy to just

56:11

be directing movies. And I really

56:13

envy, the thing I envy most about Matt

56:15

is the extent to which he's been

56:18

able to avoid and been spared

56:21

that kind of thing. Because actually, it really

56:24

is the thing of like, you know. I think being spared is the

56:26

right term rather than avoid. Because I mean, I remember

56:28

watching Brad on oceans.

56:30

You couldn't see a more normal dude

56:32

from the Midwest. Dude's from Missouri. He's

56:34

super, super chill, just a really nice,

56:37

normal guy. And the world would

56:39

not let him be normal. The amount

56:41

of

56:42

traveling around, doing a press tour

56:44

with Brad, I mean, George

56:47

used to describe his people, people would step on our

56:49

faces to try to get to Brad. Like, it

56:52

was just like unbelievable the

56:54

amount of attention and incredible

56:57

how little he courted it and

56:59

how little he wanted it or tried. There was nothing

57:01

that dude could do. Like, there was nothing. And

57:03

so I think, you know, it's less about

57:05

avoidance and more about like, you just get lucky. Like, I

57:07

feel like I got lucky. And there's a kind of, there is a like,

57:10

I always think like, oh God, be careful what you wish for.

57:12

Like, there is a fantasy, right? We always say, I'm

57:14

gonna be rich and famous as

57:16

if like, you know, the two are synonymous

57:18

in a way with like, these both, these are the two

57:20

things that will deliver happiness, just like I was sort of

57:22

saying, leaving aside ambitions

57:25

about wealth and what that means. Like you understand

57:28

that people see

57:29

money as this is going to provide my basic needs and

57:31

then something, you know, always winning the lottery, that'd be a fantasy.

57:33

I'd get a, I pay for everything, remember my kids and

57:35

I have a great car and you know, buy the whatever,

57:38

the motorboat I always want or something. But

57:41

the aspiration to be famous

57:43

is really even less, is even more

57:45

sort of missing it. Because

57:50

there's not a lot to be-

57:53

To recommend it. Yeah, to recommend that. It

57:55

makes life weird. People are

57:57

weird. You can become weird because

57:59

you-

58:00

your echolocation, your radar gets thrown off. It's better

58:02

chance of becoming weird than not becoming weird. But it's such

58:04

a mind fuck, right? Because the world doesn't

58:06

treat you the same. So it's like,

58:08

how do you not become weird? It's much harder. You

58:10

have to be much more vigilant. Like I was very, we

58:13

talked a lot about this, like really protecting

58:15

the dynamics in your most crucial

58:17

kind of close primary relationships, right?

58:20

And not let it get infected by this weirdness,

58:22

right? Because those are the things that are gonna sustain

58:24

you and keep you going, keep you sane,

58:26

right? real relationships

58:29

with real people that

58:31

require compromise and pushback and

58:34

you don't always get to be right because you can

58:36

surround yourself with a bunch of superficial

58:38

relationships, a bunch of people jerky off and tell you you're

58:40

great. People making money from you and working for you. Yeah, tell you your shit

58:42

don't stink. And believe me, that

58:45

is tempting, right? Who doesn't wanna just

58:47

be told they're fucking great all day long,

58:50

right? Am I a genius? I thought so. Yeah,

58:52

but there's no kind of recipe to go

58:55

out of your fucking mind faster. You also ruin

58:57

the thing probably that makes whatever

59:00

it is that you're doing like authentic and resonant

59:02

with people because you

59:03

start getting a false impression.

59:06

You know, everyone's laughing at your jokes. And

59:09

again, I spent a lot of time with Chris yesterday. We went up

59:12

to Beaverton and Chris Tucker, and we were on the plane

59:15

and talking about how like he

59:17

was saying, if you have those relationships and those friendships,

59:20

particularly as a comic, it's poisonous because

59:22

you think it's funny and you get out there on stage

59:24

and all of a sudden you get corrected very quickly,

59:27

you know, and you, you want to have people to tell you the

59:29

truth. And I think it's actually, as a comic,

59:31

there's a quicker means to get a correction, which is

59:33

go into a club and say the joke and see what happens. Versus,

59:37

you know, it's harder.

59:39

It takes a lot longer to get that feedback.

59:41

Like this whole idea that everyone was telling me

59:43

it was great. And we built this movie around and we spent a

59:45

year constructing, you know, I

59:47

wish somebody had said, you know, I'm

59:49

not sure people are going to identify with this character,

59:52

or this doesn't seem that plausible. or maybe

59:54

most people are interested in the foibles

59:57

of the like super rich or something. You know what I mean?

59:59

and those things,

1:00:00

you know,

1:00:01

if you, it's hard

1:00:03

enough to kind of maintain a sense of,

1:00:05

because that's, to me, what movies are, what's

1:00:07

going to create engender empathy in people? What's

1:00:10

going to connect with them and touch them? And a big part

1:00:12

of that more than we think is about projection and

1:00:14

reflecting and connecting with something

1:00:16

about your own life in the audience. And if your life

1:00:18

starts to be a total departure

1:00:21

from the experiences that people in

1:00:23

the audience are going to have, the audience

1:00:25

is going to get smaller. It's also way harder

1:00:27

to go through something when you're that public. We're

1:00:30

seeing it right now at John Moran on Memphis.

1:00:32

We're taping this near the end of March, but he's

1:00:35

gone through some stuff. And the

1:00:38

thing that I've heard just through the grapevine was

1:00:40

this guy went from all of a sudden he's

1:00:42

potentially the face of the league, a little like

1:00:45

what Jordan, the position he was in

1:00:47

in the movie he made. He's in a really

1:00:49

small

1:00:50

city for the NBA, he's in Memphis. And

1:00:54

he has the chance to be one of the biggest stars

1:00:56

we have, you know, and some people handle that

1:00:58

or process that differently, makes a couple

1:01:00

of bad choices. And then that becomes, you're

1:01:03

trending on Twitter every day. I think you're the

1:01:05

biggest story of the week. The real difference,

1:01:08

um,

1:01:08

in terms of social media, not

1:01:11

just for, for people

1:01:13

who are high profile in some ways, but like it could

1:01:15

be for anybody is that we can

1:01:17

be defined by a choice,

1:01:20

a day, a long thing.

1:01:24

and that you can carry with you forever.

1:01:26

And every time you go apply for a job,

1:01:29

somebody Googles you or looks you up and they see this post,

1:01:32

you did something you said in college or whatever it

1:01:34

is. That's what I've told my kids, this

1:01:37

idea that you're so free to be filming

1:01:39

yourself, saying things, sharing this stuff, you're

1:01:41

gonna carry that with you forever.

1:01:43

And that's a heavy thing to bear, especially

1:01:46

in a world that has become both

1:01:48

more sensitive and more tolerant

1:01:50

and more sensorious. Yeah. This

1:01:55

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1:03:34

Would

1:03:34

you let your kids act? I

1:03:37

mean, if they, if, look, we

1:03:39

were told explicitly

1:03:41

and in

1:03:43

every single, yeah, literally told not

1:03:45

to do it by everybody, including our

1:03:47

parents. I mean, including

1:03:50

by each other's parents. His mom told

1:03:52

me not to do it, you know what I mean? She's like,

1:03:54

oh, you guys are smart, why don't you do it? She knew you

1:03:56

were no good. She was like, she said she'd go through

1:03:58

you. She's like, be a doctor or a lo-

1:04:00

like, why don't you go, you know, and we were like, no,

1:04:02

we really want to do this. Like, so

1:04:04

I do think that if you're

1:04:06

really meant to do it, it doesn't matter what anybody

1:04:09

says.

1:04:09

And if I have a kid like that, I

1:04:12

hope that my kids find something that they're that

1:04:14

passionate about. I mean, one of my kids likes to do

1:04:16

theater, which I think is fabulous. I mean, I think

1:04:19

our experience in high school in our theater

1:04:21

program was one of the most formative and meaningful

1:04:23

of our lives. And I still think

1:04:26

often of our teacher, Jerry Spekka, and

1:04:29

how much the difference he made in our lives, and

1:04:31

us and also people who didn't go on to do theater, but

1:04:33

who just learned a lot about kind

1:04:35

of life and work and values

1:04:38

and how you work with others. And

1:04:40

so I'm like, I see my child

1:04:42

doing theater now in eighth grade when

1:04:44

the kind of middle school stuff started to look at maybe I'll

1:04:47

do high school plays. I think that's wonderful,

1:04:49

that's spectacular. That can be a great experience.

1:04:52

I'm not sure that you want to, I

1:04:55

would not want

1:04:57

or wish fame or attention

1:04:59

or that kind of thing that comes with the other kind of acting

1:05:02

potentially on a person that

1:05:04

young. It's hard enough. And

1:05:07

I think when you're younger, it's

1:05:09

even more difficult. Well, there's a, you

1:05:11

know, my brother always had this theory that I really,

1:05:13

I think is true, which

1:05:15

is that you retard

1:05:18

kind of socially and emotionally at the

1:05:21

moment you become famous.

1:05:22

And stop growing

1:05:24

you stop and I think that's true kind

1:05:27

of going back to what I said before because Everybody's

1:05:29

your subjective experience changes entirely.

1:05:32

Yeah, it's never the same Like

1:05:35

you you your experience of the world

1:05:37

and and that's the mindfuck you go the world isn't

1:05:39

different But it's totally different for me. It's

1:05:42

like my code and the matrix got rewritten,

1:05:44

but just mine, right and so So

1:05:47

that what can really happen is it kind of stunts

1:05:49

your growth and development because nobody's,

1:05:52

because Ben says like the echo locating you're doing,

1:05:54

what's coming back to you is so fucking weird that

1:05:57

it's

1:05:58

kind of... It's

1:06:00

stunting you, basically. Which is why I think one of the

1:06:03

best things that ever happened to me really was to

1:06:05

get really cold in like 2003 or 2004, and

1:06:10

all of a sudden

1:06:11

realize I'm not that funny.

1:06:13

Maybe I'm not all that interested. You

1:06:15

know what I mean? Like, people aren't laughing at my

1:06:18

jokes as much, and a lot

1:06:20

of people all of a sudden aren't calling me back. And

1:06:23

realizing, really a blessing,

1:06:25

get the opportunity to get a break in there

1:06:27

and realize who my friends were. and realize

1:06:30

what these relationships professionally were

1:06:32

and what they weren't. And to understand and accept

1:06:34

them on those terms, but not to have any

1:06:37

illusions. And to have friends

1:06:39

who love you and care about your, for

1:06:41

life and, or even for a period

1:06:43

of time,

1:06:45

based on a mutual affection,

1:06:47

empathy, and love. And then you

1:06:49

have people who wanna, you

1:06:51

know, build relationships. And relationships

1:06:54

are a means through which to kind of advance

1:06:56

their careers. And that's one of the things they teach

1:06:58

you, right? like make relationships, get out there, get to know people.

1:07:00

But those are friends. And they're not people

1:07:03

that you should ever expect to rely on

1:07:05

to like be there

1:07:07

for you or care about you if you're not a

1:07:09

relationship that represents a means of advancement

1:07:11

for them. And also it gave me

1:07:14

a humility. That's a tough lesson to learn though.

1:07:16

It hurts. Yeah, I've been

1:07:18

through some of that too, where it's like, especially

1:07:21

when I left ESPN, it was interesting

1:07:23

to see

1:07:24

some of the things shift, where it's

1:07:26

like, oh, I thought you were on my side. I

1:07:29

guess we were just a business relationship. It's very

1:07:31

easy to think like we wanna think, like it's because of

1:07:34

who I am, what happens to people, they like get along

1:07:36

with them and you just think, and it was

1:07:38

very telling. And

1:07:40

also I found like when

1:07:42

things picked up, like

1:07:45

it was really useful to, Patrick

1:07:47

was really good about this and people, and I just, I remember

1:07:49

self consciously going like,

1:07:51

I don't wanna hold any grudges or get

1:07:53

back at anybody now. Well, you didn't, it was like,

1:07:55

I remember Patrick telling me we're going

1:07:58

to welcome back all our old friends.

1:08:00

And that was the best advice. Is

1:08:02

that what he said? Of

1:08:05

course, I was like, well, why about him? He said, no,

1:08:07

I think we're just going to welcome back all over.

1:08:10

Just hold your head high. Because, you

1:08:12

know, you know what it is. And what else

1:08:14

told me a lot about him? This is a guy

1:08:17

who stayed working really hard for me. His

1:08:19

career kept going up and things kept getting

1:08:21

better for him and he became more and more senior. But

1:08:24

our relationship didn't change. a great

1:08:26

story about him and Patrick that was one of my favorites.

1:08:28

After, you

1:08:29

know, Geely

1:08:32

came out, you know, Ben had a series of movies that didn't

1:08:34

work and they went to a screening

1:08:37

of Surviving

1:08:39

Christmas.

1:08:40

And they're on like the lot at DreamWorks and Ben's

1:08:43

like, okay, this is the one in the chamber I have

1:08:45

and it's bad. And this is gonna, this

1:08:47

is gonna come out in three months and it's gonna

1:08:49

be another wave of... It's gonna be the,

1:08:52

you're on the other team and Larry hits the three. It's

1:08:54

a dagger. But

1:08:56

Patrick

1:08:58

sat him down outside and did a lot

1:09:00

and dreams were sat down on some steps and goes,

1:09:02

OK, this is it. Like, this is the bottom

1:09:05

of the mountain. We're here right now.

1:09:07

This is this is the fucking this is as low

1:09:09

as it gets professionally. Can't get any lower.

1:09:12

Step by step. I'm we're

1:09:14

walking together back up to the top of the

1:09:16

mountain. And so years later,

1:09:19

when he won best picture, which is

1:09:21

like, I mean, That's the

1:09:23

absolute pinnacle in our business, right? He

1:09:25

reminded Patrick of that story at the after

1:09:28

party. He put the Oscar in front of him and he told

1:09:30

him that and he started to cry and he told Patrick

1:09:32

that story. Patrick called me, I was in New York and

1:09:34

Patrick called me the next day and told me that and

1:09:36

brought me to town. It's like he was the most beautiful story. But

1:09:39

that's Patrick too, you know what I mean? That's the kind of person

1:09:41

that- Well, it's when you see you find out who your friends are because

1:09:43

you find the people who are like, well, okay,

1:09:46

you're

1:09:46

not helping my career, you're not successful, you're

1:09:48

actually probably an albatross. But

1:09:51

like, I care about you

1:09:53

and I'm gonna stand by you. And that there's something

1:09:55

so fundamentally moving about that, but

1:09:58

our need to have people who will. will

1:10:00

have a kind of unconditional love and affection for

1:10:02

us and be with us through thick and thin. You know,

1:10:04

I remember the first time you and I did a

1:10:06

podcast, Matt,

1:10:07

you, we were talking about when he hit

1:10:09

the cold streak and how mad you were

1:10:11

that

1:10:12

people were comparing the two

1:10:14

of you and like, look at Matt, and this is like, that's

1:10:17

the good way. And this is the bad way. And you were really

1:10:19

passionate and mad about it. And I don't think you had

1:10:21

really talked about that before. And of

1:10:23

course, then that became,

1:10:25

you know, the stories for the next couple of days from the

1:10:27

podcast, but it was really hard

1:10:29

to watch your best friend be so

1:10:31

misunderstood. Yeah, you know, I knew

1:10:34

I knew I was in a unique position

1:10:36

to know how talented Ben was, right, because

1:10:38

I'd written, you know, we wrote our first

1:10:41

movie together. We grew up together. I did

1:10:43

fucking high school theater with the guy. Like, I know

1:10:45

everything about him as a talent.

1:10:48

And so to watch like your friend

1:10:50

get fucking dunked on,

1:10:52

right. And be and be like

1:10:54

humiliated, really.

1:10:56

Like they were, the coverage was so mean,

1:10:59

right? Mean and mean to Jennifer, to

1:11:01

J.Lo at the time. I mean, just fucking

1:11:04

awful, right? And I was just like,

1:11:06

it felt abusive and

1:11:09

also really deeply misunderstood,

1:11:11

fundamentally misunderstood.

1:11:13

So when he

1:11:15

became this great director and everybody

1:11:18

kind of welcomed him back, you know, the press too,

1:11:20

right? Like all these like incredibly

1:11:23

fickle

1:11:25

non-friends, right? Right? Welcome, welcome

1:11:27

him back. You know, at least

1:11:30

it felt like, all right, everything's

1:11:32

right with the force again. Like now people,

1:11:34

at least people understand how great

1:11:37

this dude is. And, you know, it just,

1:11:40

I was so angry on his behalf for years.

1:11:44

You know, just the way, like people would say, oh, Ben,

1:11:46

and like, you know, like a subtle eye roll

1:11:49

or something, don't fucking roll your,

1:11:51

you know, who are you like your motherfucker?

1:11:53

Like, a part of us, like we as

1:11:55

a culture, Like we, it's sort of like

1:11:57

really, it's just a big high school. You know what I

1:11:59

mean?

1:12:00

It becomes like, who's in, who's out? Who are the people who

1:12:02

do we like? Are we like them now? You know, without any,

1:12:04

are they in, they're out? And there's some

1:12:06

of that, you know, so that it builds its own momentum,

1:12:08

both positive and negative. So it's become

1:12:10

the person about whom it's appropriate

1:12:12

to make the joke about them being talentless.

1:12:15

They probably don't really have any general

1:12:17

opinion about like what real talent is, or paying enough

1:12:19

attention to like, I really think

1:12:22

about what constitutes talent in filmmaking.

1:12:24

You know, it's more

1:12:26

for the people like writing the

1:12:28

quip, You know, it's

1:12:29

a momentary kind

1:12:32

of glib thing and it becomes

1:12:34

like, oh, I can think of other people who have gone

1:12:36

through that or people who, it's like just

1:12:38

becomes okay to make fun of it. Well, like not like

1:12:40

so and so. And you think like, and

1:12:43

I obviously having had this,

1:12:45

been through this. And by the way, I don't, like,

1:12:48

I don't shirk any of my own responsibility.

1:12:50

I could, I'm sure there's choices I could have

1:12:52

made that were better, that were smarter, But

1:12:55

it also was not.

1:12:56

It also definitely was a thing

1:12:58

where it become you become OK to kind

1:13:00

of pick on. And there is a dynamic of that,

1:13:03

which I can see now in the media totally

1:13:05

apart from there are people about whom becomes

1:13:07

OK. And there's an increasing culture now actually

1:13:10

of

1:13:10

of kind of snarkiness and the sort

1:13:13

of reward of that. And the retweeting is

1:13:15

really if you say something really funny and nasty,

1:13:17

you get retweeted and there's

1:13:19

a like an almost cultural sport

1:13:21

of who can be kind of the

1:13:23

most snarky

1:13:26

about stuff. It's not all of culture, but

1:13:28

that current is present, and maybe it's part

1:13:30

of human nature, and it's certainly no fun to be on

1:13:32

the downside of that. Our guy Brady's in

1:13:35

this right now.

1:13:36

It feels like the last,

1:13:39

I don't know, six, seven months he had, where

1:13:41

it felt like he was in the top of the world forever, and

1:13:43

now it's like,

1:13:45

and it's different for him, because when you're

1:13:47

done with football, you're done with football. You guys can act

1:13:49

or direct or, you know, movies can

1:13:51

go on forever for him. I think

1:13:53

when you're the best at what you do

1:13:56

and now it's over. It's like, well, okay, so yeah.

1:13:58

And I don't even honestly, I.

1:14:00

I really do try to

1:14:01

avoid, I mean, actually I didn't try to, but I'm just not all that

1:14:03

interested in the gossipy stuff, it just depresses

1:14:06

me. So like, I just

1:14:08

love Tom, and I don't think I would even click on something

1:14:11

that was like negative about the guy. So I can

1:14:13

genuinely tell you like, I believe you, and I

1:14:15

don't even know what it is people are saying,

1:14:18

but I do know that

1:14:19

there is also the sort

1:14:21

of the British called like the tall poppy syndrome. Like

1:14:24

it's fun to watch it grow, and then it's fun to cut

1:14:26

it down. So we like

1:14:28

just, that's what drama is. That's what storytelling

1:14:31

is. It's like rights. We know it was fun. It was a six

1:14:33

super buzz. That was really fun. Yeah, that was pretty

1:14:35

fun. Enjoyed that part. Yeah. When

1:14:37

you guys lived together,

1:14:39

how long did you live together?

1:14:42

Who was in charge of- Don't work forever. Who was in charge

1:14:44

of the bills? Years and years. Who- We

1:14:46

split them. We split the bills. But somebody's,

1:14:48

when people live together, somebody's like the alpha dog

1:14:51

with stuff. Somebody's worried about- I was gonna say, we don't have groceries.

1:14:53

Alpha dog, if you're the one who's like, they're turning

1:14:55

off our electricity. You have

1:14:57

to pay this. We were actually in the toilet.

1:14:59

You know, we had been so used to having a shared

1:15:02

bank account from high school that like I remember

1:15:04

your shared bank account in high school. Yeah. Yeah. We

1:15:06

had a Baybanks account that we shared, which we use.

1:15:08

I still have the checkbook. I found the checkbook. Did you really?

1:15:12

I wonder if it was Baybanks.

1:15:14

No, Baybanks isn't there anymore.

1:15:16

Probably not. But we

1:15:20

it was always like as long as one of

1:15:22

us had a job, as long as one of us had money, we

1:15:24

knew that the power wasn't going to get shut off. You know what

1:15:26

I mean? And so I remember coming after

1:15:29

doing Geronimo, it was like, I was like,

1:15:32

fuck, I probably had 35 grand or something

1:15:34

in the bank. And I was like, you know, in my checking account,

1:15:36

it was like, we're good. Like, we got

1:15:38

this. We're good for a year. We're good for a year. I think

1:15:40

that attitude really helped us in ways we couldn't anticipate,

1:15:42

which was, I see other people get

1:15:44

kind of falsely wrapped up in the ideas,

1:15:47

in business that are very competitive. Like

1:15:49

this person, you know, in front of me, has

1:15:51

to be knocked down for me to sort of step up

1:15:54

one rung. It's like zero sum game. Yeah, right. Matt

1:15:56

and I always kind of felt like, I mean,

1:15:58

we're in it together. Like, yeah.

1:16:00

hey, I want to get the part, but I want you to get the part.

1:16:02

We're all, it's shared, it's collaborative.

1:16:04

And so you don't have, we didn't develop this sense,

1:16:07

which I think it happened because you might be the only actor

1:16:09

you know, and you're starting to audition, you're

1:16:11

going out there and everybody feels like competition and

1:16:13

you didn't get it and someone else got it. And whereas

1:16:16

we kind of have the school of like, hey, if we

1:16:18

do something, you know, that's interesting enough,

1:16:20

then there'll be room for us too. And this is

1:16:22

why I can honestly say, even

1:16:24

at the times where the disparity

1:16:27

between the points in our careers was really,

1:16:30

It's extreme, you know?

1:16:32

I never envy Matt. I always

1:16:34

rooted it for that one of that. I certainly wanted for

1:16:36

myself and wanted to

1:16:38

be regarded and respected in

1:16:41

a way that was fair and honest. And

1:16:44

there are things I envy Matt. He had a great, Matt's dad

1:16:48

was a spectacular guy who I loved

1:16:50

enormously and a great relationship. And

1:16:52

I envied that, but I did think, wow, that's

1:16:54

great. You know, where the line

1:16:56

is between I want that or something, it's not like

1:16:58

I coveted it, but I

1:17:01

loved it, respected it, and I

1:17:03

do envy in an ongoing way. Matt's

1:17:06

ability to move a little bit

1:17:09

more unmolested through the world without

1:17:11

the sort of particularly kind of toxic

1:17:13

people who run around taking

1:17:15

pictures,

1:17:16

like mostly for the sake of my kids.

1:17:19

But I always, I was never, I

1:17:22

wasn't kind of baffled by the whole, it's not

1:17:24

enough that I should succeed, but my friends should fail.

1:17:27

It's funny though, people don't realize how close

1:17:29

you guys were, even though they know you're like aligned

1:17:31

in a lot of ways, and these guys were buddies, and they

1:17:33

wrote this movie, but I don't think people realize,

1:17:36

like

1:17:36

the actual best friend, like share, I don't

1:17:38

even have a friend that I would have shared a checking account

1:17:41

with. That's unusual.

1:17:43

Yeah, well we had this shared a nice dream. It's weird,

1:17:45

Bill. Yeah, it's weird. Well, it was unusual,

1:17:47

but it was also like, we needed the money for

1:17:50

auditions, for trips to New York, so that's what

1:17:52

the money was for. It was like, you were allowed to go to New

1:17:54

York with the money, you could go to the account, we

1:17:56

were allowed to take out 10 bucks and get quarters

1:17:58

go to a thousand and one and play. video

1:18:00

games, that was another use of the money we were

1:18:02

allowed. And and eventually, you

1:18:04

know, we were allowed to try to buy

1:18:06

beer, like, you know, which never fucking

1:18:08

worked. And that's how we went broke.

1:18:11

Without a check. But like,

1:18:13

you know, that it was a we

1:18:16

it's a weird thing in retrospect. Like we

1:18:18

reflected on that. Like we're going to help each other

1:18:20

and beer for each other. And it's hard enough. And

1:18:22

let's try to do this together. I mean, can you imagine

1:18:25

how happy I was when that Bourne movie worked? Boy,

1:18:28

the accountant. I was like,

1:18:30

hey, look, you're not going to be alone. I'm not going to be

1:18:32

alone. We're not going to see each other like be, let's go

1:18:34

out there and do this together.

1:18:37

We also had that spirit, means

1:18:40

certainly when we were out in LA and started,

1:18:42

I did reindeer games and got my

1:18:45

first big paycheck. Good movie. I'm in on reindeer

1:18:47

games. Thank you. I

1:18:49

had eight guys from Boston

1:18:52

living. One guy was living in a closet. Literally.

1:18:55

Literally. Swear to God, his mattress

1:18:57

was in a closet. These are like Cambridge

1:18:59

guys? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the guys we grew

1:19:01

up with. But I, and I would come in, cause I didn't

1:19:03

have a house. I would come in off the

1:19:05

road with my duffel bag and I'd

1:19:07

like get a room at Ben's

1:19:09

house for like, I'd be off the road for like a month

1:19:11

and I'd just move in. So when you guys

1:19:13

made it, all these friends you had

1:19:15

from Massachusetts, they're just coming. Yeah,

1:19:18

because that was like, that's the best thing

1:19:20

in the world. Like to be able to have it

1:19:22

and be with our friends and hang out and we

1:19:24

had a great ton,

1:19:26

you know? And it was these are the people that we

1:19:28

love. They're our friends. We want to be around. And you're

1:19:30

in your 20s. Those are the relationships

1:19:32

you've got married. That's also a really fun decade

1:19:35

for that to happen. Because

1:19:37

I think is, you know, when we do the rewatchables

1:19:39

pod, those 90s movies, there's just so many good

1:19:41

scripts and so much talent. So many records. Such

1:19:44

an abundance like you need these scripts. It was just

1:19:46

one after another. So many people trying

1:19:48

to make indie films or people trying to break into that

1:19:50

world. And I would think that would be

1:19:52

so much harder. You

1:19:55

know, there's people that you can make, you know, she's

1:19:57

got to have it or Slack or Rick Linklater.

1:20:00

We wrote the Robin Williams part. We

1:20:02

called it the Harvey Keitel part. Because the Reservoir Dogs.

1:20:04

Because we knew that that movie got funded because

1:20:06

Harvey said he'd do it.

1:20:08

And once Keitel was on, they were like,

1:20:10

okay, cool. We got a million bucks or so the story.

1:20:12

So we literally had this role, you know,

1:20:15

in the, you know, it was called, his name was

1:20:17

Robert for a long time. Because we thought we'd

1:20:19

want Robert De Niro if we could get him. And then we

1:20:21

changed it to Sean. Robert. Right. And

1:20:23

it was like, but that was Sean. And we

1:20:25

were always, every time we got a job, we'd

1:20:27

think like, maybe this is, And I remember

1:20:29

there was one actor that Matt went to work with and we

1:20:32

had really high hopes and I and I

1:20:34

called him on location like the next

1:20:36

day and I was like, so how's

1:20:38

it going? I don't think he's gonna do our

1:20:40

movie. Yes,

1:20:42

I think property wall. Oh,

1:20:45

yeah,

1:20:46

yeah, yeah, that's right.

1:20:48

That's right. You have to tell me after. All right. What's

1:20:52

the matters you guys have ever been in each other?

1:20:55

Have you ever been, has there ever been like a real,

1:20:58

I can't, I'm so mad at Ben right now, blah,

1:21:00

blah, blah, or anything like that? Or

1:21:02

have you always been aligned? Nothing that

1:21:04

is appropriate for a podcast. Because it wouldn't

1:21:07

be like, oh, I'm so mad, you know, like. And I'm

1:21:09

like, I'm mad you didn't take out the trash. You know,

1:21:11

it's like,

1:21:12

but. Although that, Matt stood,

1:21:15

I do remember one time me and Casey

1:21:17

in Somerville just being like, let's see

1:21:19

how long

1:21:20

he can go. So that's kind of a big.

1:21:23

Matt, we were like, we're just going to

1:21:25

give it to just wait and not pick anything up.

1:21:28

Three days later, we came home. Matt was playing

1:21:30

video games surrounded by old

1:21:32

sushi boxes. It's just like,

1:21:34

okay, you waited this out. You got it. You win.

1:21:38

You never had there was never like the same woman

1:21:40

or same girl in high school or anything like that.

1:21:43

Where we, you know, we did pretty

1:21:45

well. I mean, I think, uh,

1:21:47

I remember Matt, I remember one time, And

1:21:49

Matt, we were having a snowball fight, and

1:21:51

Matt threw a snowball, like it was close,

1:21:54

and I turned around and hit me in the face. And

1:21:56

I remember a burst of rage and chasing

1:21:58

him down the street. I didn't quite catch.

1:22:00

As I remember, I fell, I was

1:22:02

mad. I

1:22:04

wish the snowball, I didn't even remember the snowball

1:22:06

fight. I don't even remember that. I remember you threw

1:22:08

an acorn on school ties and accidentally

1:22:10

hit me in the eye and I had to go to the hospital.

1:22:12

I do remember that. What? We were just

1:22:14

walking across the quad like all the guys and chucking

1:22:17

acorns at each other and he threw

1:22:19

one at like Randall Battenkopf and Randall

1:22:22

Duct and it like hit me in the eye and

1:22:24

I literally had to go to- to go too fast. And

1:22:26

I still don't have complete control over my

1:22:28

body or a real accurate sense of how long

1:22:31

my limbs are, but then I really didn't. So

1:22:34

I think I could be kind of annoying to be

1:22:36

around. I'm just the guy who always spilled a drink at the table and

1:22:38

you know, like, because I make some gesture. He was like

1:22:40

5'2 and then the next like month he was like- He grew a foot

1:22:42

like Dennis Radman. Yeah. Yeah, I was 5'2

1:22:44

and then at the beginning of my sophomore year, in the end, I

1:22:46

was 6'2, 6'3. Jesus.

1:22:50

Yeah. Were you in the shower scene

1:22:53

in school ties? Were you part of that scene

1:22:56

when

1:22:56

Matt was naked for like three days in the shower?

1:22:58

I was made to strip and

1:23:01

dance around topless than I'm made to. No, I

1:23:04

was. I did have a topless scene

1:23:06

in the movie that was. But it wasn't the shower

1:23:08

scene. It was the shower scene. How

1:23:11

many days were you naked in that scene? It

1:23:13

was a long scene. I think it was probably two days of

1:23:15

shooting. Jesus. It was like there was a whole monologue.

1:23:17

It felt long, but it was short.

1:23:24

That's crazy.

1:23:28

This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you

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availability early 2023. That's

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right around now. Subject to change. Let's

1:24:38

talk about this movie. So other

1:24:41

than putting Matt in a fat suit, what were your goals?

1:24:44

My goals were, I mean, there's

1:24:47

so many things about this movie

1:24:49

that were interesting. One,

1:24:51

the movie itself being about

1:24:53

how important and

1:24:55

meaningful it was, companies

1:24:57

started to really recognize

1:25:00

the contribution, not just of these athletes,

1:25:02

but their identity, what they brought to it, and

1:25:05

to really value them, or

1:25:07

at least to begin to value them

1:25:10

in a way that was appropriate and commensurate

1:25:12

with the value they were creating, their cultural

1:25:15

footprint, their impact. Secondly,

1:25:17

that it was the sort of nascent stage

1:25:20

of this kind of

1:25:21

identity brand evolution,

1:25:23

And this was the beginning of the time

1:25:26

when companies started having beliefs.

1:25:28

Like we're going to have rules. We're going to have ethos.

1:25:30

It wasn't just punch a clock. We'll pay your check. That's

1:25:33

what you believe in. It was, hey,

1:25:35

this means something, which is now ubiquitous. Right. The Google,

1:25:37

you know, this campus Apple, it's all very

1:25:40

sort of, you know, magical.

1:25:42

And, you know, it's all got some sort

1:25:45

of deeper. It's supposed to your company

1:25:47

is supposed to mean something. Yeah. It was of a mission

1:25:49

statement as a company. Now, that wasn't

1:25:51

a thing people took for granted. And then

1:25:53

really the

1:25:53

story of, of, of,

1:25:57

it paralleled the values that we wanted

1:25:59

to. sort

1:26:00

of imbues into speaking of values,

1:26:02

at least through the business practice of this company,

1:26:04

which was to do exactly that. So

1:26:06

like the best

1:26:08

technicians, artists, craftsmen,

1:26:10

writers, actors, directors, and the compents. Yeah, like the shoe

1:26:12

guy in the basement, just like making the world clear. Yeah,

1:26:15

exactly. Shoes in one day. That's what artists' equity wanted

1:26:17

to be and do.

1:26:18

And then, you know, it was for me, was, I

1:26:21

mean, look, just having a chance to do something with

1:26:24

Matt, I really looked forward to it, it was just

1:26:26

so fun and joyful, and I loved

1:26:28

that. And it was like we talked about, like, we should

1:26:30

be working together. But the movie

1:26:33

actually started to mean

1:26:35

something to me or mean

1:26:38

a lot more. And I realized

1:26:40

I needed other contributors

1:26:42

and other voices and help

1:26:44

when I talked to Michael

1:26:46

who was really generous enough to sit

1:26:48

down with me briefly for an afternoon.

1:26:51

And

1:26:52

because I wasn't going to make this movie without saying

1:26:54

like, is this okay with you?

1:26:56

and asking for his respect. And it's

1:26:59

not like

1:27:00

his authorship or his commitment, we couldn't pay

1:27:02

him his rights. Like he has, it's

1:27:04

not a movie he branded, and

1:27:06

I don't want to pretend that, give it

1:27:08

that patina because that has value and

1:27:10

that's Michael's value. But

1:27:13

what I did want to say

1:27:15

was,

1:27:17

like I respect you enormously. And

1:27:19

if you don't want this to happen, I will absolutely

1:27:21

not do it. And then you played poker and you figured it

1:27:23

out. Just be like, whoever

1:27:25

wins this hand, then I would have lost

1:27:28

for sure. B, what's important

1:27:30

to you? And the thing that stood out to me said, like,

1:27:32

hey, George Raveling is meaningful to me. He

1:27:34

was a big, he was a reason why. I

1:27:37

ended up at Nike. He

1:27:40

mentioned Howard White

1:27:42

and how meaningful Howard was to him. It's a Christian character.

1:27:44

It was, and then gave me, he gave me

1:27:46

like these two amazing gifts, both saying,

1:27:49

telling me about Howard and the opportunity to work with Chris

1:27:51

Tucker because I found that role, which

1:27:54

we, so the Christian said, I don't

1:27:55

know what the role is. I need your help

1:27:57

to make it. Come work with us and write it. and

1:28:00

building and he worked with Howard. So

1:28:02

we really use a collaboration of multiple contributors

1:28:04

and kind of said the same thing to Biola. Cause

1:28:07

Michael said, I said, who do you want?

1:28:09

And he said, Biola Davis, that has to be my

1:28:11

mother. I was like, she has two lines. The

1:28:14

joke rehab is like, that's like saying you want Michael Jordan

1:28:16

for your basketball team. Seriously. Oh,

1:28:19

no shit. You don't want Jerry Seasting?

1:28:21

How about Scott Wedman's

1:28:24

available? And so it's like, okay, but I

1:28:26

thought it was kind of typical of Michael, you know, like

1:28:28

the figures. He wants the best

1:28:30

thing in the world. It's great. Terrific. We'll make it happen.

1:28:32

But then I got to have the chance. There's a

1:28:34

lifelong dream of mine to have

1:28:37

Viola be in a movie I directed. I just thought

1:28:39

that would

1:28:40

mean something for me that I had

1:28:42

made it as a director, that an

1:28:45

actor that important and talented was

1:28:47

willing to trust me with their performance.

1:28:49

And then it made incumbent on us to try

1:28:52

to start to write a part that... To write

1:28:54

a part that Viola Davis might say

1:28:56

she would do. Yeah, that was... That's like

1:28:58

the Good Will Hunting lesson of we have

1:29:00

to write the Raba Williams part. That

1:29:02

makes somebody like Raba Williams want to do it. And the

1:29:04

second part of that lesson of learn afterwards

1:29:07

to then say to

1:29:08

Viola, look, she didn't do

1:29:10

the movie because I asked, was like, Michael would

1:29:12

like you to play his mom. And this

1:29:14

is- That's pretty tough to turn down. The best. Yeah,

1:29:16

that's what I was hoping. And here's the

1:29:19

best we can do.

1:29:20

Come help us use your voice and experience

1:29:23

and make this better. because

1:29:26

I

1:29:27

don't know what Dolores Jordan's

1:29:29

perspective exactly might have been or would have

1:29:31

been. And I mean, obviously neither is Viola. They

1:29:33

don't know one another, but her contribution,

1:29:36

like she, her voice, her perspective

1:29:38

is apt to have more in common and more

1:29:41

of a connection. And it's that collaboration

1:29:43

and multiple voices, because it's, I don't, if

1:29:45

you were to make a movie that's realistic and authentic, and

1:29:48

as people from all different parts of

1:29:50

life, well, there is no one person who can speak with

1:29:52

authority in all those voices. It's necessarily

1:29:54

a collaborative effort. And really,

1:29:57

look, here's the secret to directing. It's

1:29:59

just work. with brilliant people. And

1:30:01

that's what I did with the movies, was the best movie I've ever

1:30:03

made. And it's just a function

1:30:06

of all these people who not only are brilliant,

1:30:08

Matt, Viola,

1:30:09

Jason Spectacular, you know,

1:30:11

Chris Christmasina, who's great, Matt Mayer, is

1:30:14

also the- I really love this movie,

1:30:16

but I'm not, I'm just not gonna shove

1:30:18

the town aside.

1:30:20

Yeah, if it's okay. You can,

1:30:22

you are- If it's okay. The town's having

1:30:24

a great run in the Simmons house. Just

1:30:26

be careful. I don't wanna take any DVDs

1:30:29

off the shelf. speak care. I like that you don't

1:30:31

even cite the one he won best picture for. You're just

1:30:33

like, you're straight to the town. The town and

1:30:36

rounders and good will hunting. And you know,

1:30:38

you know how I feel,

1:30:39

but I just, I didn't want you to kick the rounders. I see.

1:30:43

I actually imagine we have, I didn't

1:30:45

want to do this in the podcast. No, we're doing it.

1:30:47

Rounders too. It's a lot of whispers right now. I

1:30:50

know we've been talking about it for years. We're trying to,

1:30:52

we're investigating whether or not we're investigating.

1:30:55

We can do it. Um, Were you jealous

1:30:57

that you weren't in Rounders 1?

1:30:59

It was kind of before you started playing

1:31:01

poker. I wasn't playing poker much then,

1:31:04

and I was much smaller. It was a really small

1:31:06

time. Yeah. And it was like... It really was. Go down

1:31:08

to get the camera and the door. I

1:31:12

know. So, Koppelman and I, and

1:31:15

Edward and I played in it. You

1:31:17

played. No, 10K was a... You did well. Didn't you play in

1:31:19

the main rounders? No, I made it to the afternoon, but I

1:31:22

lost. I had Kings I shoved and Doyle Brunson

1:31:24

at it. It was like the greatest story

1:31:27

I lost to DeWille Brunson.

1:31:29

If you were able to say now that

1:31:31

you finished whatever it was, 89th in the World

1:31:33

Series of Poker, you would have to be a world

1:31:36

class player. Yeah. I think if I'm

1:31:38

not mistaken, I think there were 350 people the year that I, something

1:31:42

like that. I've been out of 700. It might've

1:31:44

been 700 way more now. Oh, now it's 10,000. Yeah.

1:31:47

But I don't even know. I mean, certainly in the early

1:31:49

days, there were less than 100. When

1:31:51

Doyle was winning, the number of people

1:31:53

were paying $10,000 to enter a poker term

1:31:55

was very small. Yeah,

1:31:57

you had to think you had a chance of winning. 98, 99.

1:32:00

99, yeah,

1:32:02

yeah, 99. No, that's true. That

1:32:04

was 99. It was 90, we shot it in 98.

1:32:06

Yeah, it was late 98. That

1:32:09

it came out. Don't ask why I know these things. That's right. Might

1:32:12

have seen it a few times. Man,

1:32:14

and you know, that movie was a bomb,

1:32:17

you know, and the whole thing, like it was years

1:32:19

later, I think in 2007 it went into the black.

1:32:23

And it was- But the thing is, it caught that, it

1:32:25

was preceded the poker boom, but as the poker

1:32:28

boom happens, it becomes the movie. The year, yeah,

1:32:30

I told I knew it 350

1:32:32

and then the next year there were 700 people I think and

1:32:34

then it just was It was no notable

1:32:36

for having only five players reached the official

1:32:39

final table

1:32:41

Wait, so you maybe they just knocked each

1:32:43

other out like So you played Sonny

1:32:45

Bicaro how much how much research

1:32:48

did you have to do? I think we did a thirty for thirty at

1:32:50

him at one point. I remember I was still there

1:32:52

writer I believe Alex Convery

1:32:55

the writer got was was worked

1:32:57

on that Yeah. On the 30 for 30

1:32:59

and that's how he wrote this script on Speck.

1:33:02

Like just based on the experience of

1:33:04

working on that show. I think that's how that was

1:33:06

the genesis of it. Because the crazy thing about him is it's

1:33:08

set up as like he basically

1:33:11

isn't saved Nike, but he pushes Nike

1:33:13

to a whole other level, but then eventually goes to compete

1:33:15

against them. Yeah. Well,

1:33:18

he got fired. In a real way. Well, and what was

1:33:20

really interesting talking to Sonny was because it all

1:33:22

ended like, you After our movie ends,

1:33:25

it descends into acrimony and

1:33:27

between everybody. But

1:33:30

they all, like Sonny was really

1:33:32

particular

1:33:33

about

1:33:36

making sure he really wanted

1:33:38

to impress on me the fact that this was

1:33:40

this really joyful time

1:33:42

in all their lives. He was,

1:33:45

him and George Raveling were the greatest of friends

1:33:48

and Phil, everybody, you know, Rob

1:33:50

Strasser, all these people were,

1:33:53

that really was the the good old days for these guys.

1:33:56

Interestingly enough, when Ben showed the

1:33:59

movie to Phil, like. he

1:34:00

said the same thing.

1:34:04

Because when we initially talked to him on the phone, I

1:34:07

said something about something, he goes, oh, I bet he has nice things to say.

1:34:10

Because I think they've had so much public, there's

1:34:12

been so much public feuding between Phil and Sonny.

1:34:15

And I said, actually, he was really,

1:34:19

he specifically said that this was kind

1:34:21

of the greatest time in his life and that he had,

1:34:24

and that the feeling, there was such kind of,

1:34:28

this kind of like wonderful collaboration

1:34:30

and teamwork between everybody there. Like it

1:34:32

was this really, and Phil said that to Ben just

1:34:34

yesterday. He said, these people were my

1:34:37

friends. He goes like, this was a great

1:34:39

time in our lives. So was Phil

1:34:42

okay with the movie? Cause it's hard, you

1:34:44

watch this movie and it's like, am I supposed to like film

1:34:47

this movie? Cause I like some pieces and not other

1:34:49

pieces. I think he's supposed to be complicated. Yeah. And

1:34:51

that's what I like. It's not a hagiography.

1:34:54

It's not like, we're not, it's not a commercial.

1:34:56

It's not trying to, you know, it's not

1:34:58

propaganda. It's like about a lot

1:35:00

of it's about things people didn't see coming and

1:35:03

frailty and weakness and conflict and, but

1:35:05

that that's actually part of the process

1:35:07

of creating things. Often in retrospect,

1:35:10

we like, we often sort of painted in a

1:35:12

certain way with a more direct line. And, you

1:35:14

know, yes, it feels complicated

1:35:17

and that's sort of, and I

1:35:19

thought it was very impressive

1:35:22

that and graceful of him to

1:35:24

recognize the affection the movie

1:35:26

has for Nike and in particular for the spirit

1:35:28

of that like time when she said these

1:35:31

people, these, these are, we were friends. Yeah.

1:35:33

I was just trying to make something and you know, I said

1:35:36

to him, hey, look, Phil, I, you

1:35:37

know, I, when you

1:35:39

see this movie, I've had

1:35:41

the experience of being a meme, a timer,

1:35:43

too. I like, yeah, I get it. You know, part of the

1:35:46

exchanges, you know, you, you know,

1:35:48

go out there and this is part of the deal. And

1:35:50

I said, you know, like people like to make fun of the boss

1:35:52

as a storyteller. kind of like the person

1:35:55

who's going to be like functions

1:35:57

best as sort of, you know, the foil. And

1:36:00

by the way, somebody's got to say, hold

1:36:03

on, or this isn't a good idea, or there's no drama.

1:36:05

If at the beginning of the movie, everybody just says,

1:36:07

yeah, we're doing it, then the movie's kind of

1:36:10

over. And part of

1:36:12

what I thought was interesting about Phil was, like,

1:36:14

I really am a, I've

1:36:17

read a lot about Buddhism myself, and I find myself

1:36:19

very drawn to it and interested in it. And I also find

1:36:21

that I'm really drawn to it. And yet,

1:36:24

oftentimes I see my life running counter

1:36:26

to the tenets of of Buddhism, which is why I love that. Like,

1:36:28

does the Dalai Lama have a grape color? Poor slum. Because

1:36:31