0:29

Hello , today I have with me

0:31

Emmy Kissinger . Emmy is a mom

0:33

of three from the Midwest , a

0:36

certified birth story listener and

0:38

experienced mental health professional

0:41

who brings a wealth of diverse

0:43

birth experiences to her practice . Her

0:45

journey includes a Caesarean section

0:47

and two home births . Emmy

0:50

offers personalized one-on-one sessions

0:52

for individuals , guiding them toward

0:54

finding inner peace and acceptance

0:56

in their unique birth stories . To

0:58

learn more about her services , workshops

1:01

or the guided birth story listening

1:03

process , visit her website at

1:05

wwwarrivalsstoriesco

1:07

or connect with her on

1:09

Instagram at emmykissinger

1:12

. Emmy

1:14

. Welcome and thank you so much for

1:16

joining me .

1:17

Hello , I'm so excited to be here . This

1:19

is going to be a fun one .

1:20

Oh yeah , absolutely . I am so excited

1:22

about what you do . We talked

1:24

briefly before we hit record and

1:26

we realized that we are kind of kind of kindred spirits

1:29

in what we're doing with birthing people

1:31

. I would definitely agree with that . So where

1:33

did you start in your mental

1:35

health professional career ? What

1:38

kind of happened that inspired

1:40

you to go down this path ?

1:42

Oh , that is such a great question . So we're going , we're

1:44

dialing way back . So I

1:46

attended grad school and became

1:49

a licensed school psychologist

1:51

and during grad school I actually

1:54

became pregnant right before I graduated

1:56

. So then I started out my professional

1:58

career . I was 23 years old

2:00

. I had my son right before

2:02

Christmas that year that I had started . So

2:04

I had been in the profession for about six months . It

2:07

was my internship year and

2:09

I had a beautiful vision

2:11

for my birth . I wanted a natural birth

2:13

in the hospital . It sort of that cascade of interventions

2:16

happened and ended up with an emergency

2:18

cesarean and I was actually sedated

2:20

for the entire operation

2:22

process . So , waking up , everyone

2:24

in my family had met my baby , was completely

2:27

devastated by the fact that I was not there

2:29

to welcome him when he entered this world

2:31

and that actually no one in our family had

2:34

been there to welcome him when he was pulled out

2:36

in the operating room . So , being very

2:38

devastated by that , I experienced pretty extreme

2:40

birth trauma and started

2:43

doing things to try to process that trauma Writing

2:45

my birth story , talking to my sister a lot who

2:47

had been at the birth , joining the International Cesarean

2:50

Awareness Network , where I actually ended

2:52

up going to their national conference

2:54

. So there I ended up being

2:56

in a workshop with Pam England

2:58

, who is the person who created birth

3:00

story listening and the birth story medicine

3:03

process , and over time realized

3:06

that my heart and my passion

3:08

is truly aligned with helping people

3:10

find peace after their birth

3:12

If they experience birth trauma . It's so common

3:14

in our culture to have lots of thoughts

3:16

and feelings that are maybe not super

3:19

positive about our birth but feel like maybe

3:21

we can't share them , we don't have a way

3:23

to process them . There's no one who is

3:25

really trained to listen to those stories and

3:27

provide insights or feedback

3:29

that can actually help us to

3:31

find peace and acceptance

3:33

and closure with that story so that we can

3:35

move forward and live our life and

3:38

have more children if we want to . So

3:40

that's sort of the beginning and how I've

3:42

landed here . It was a nine-year process

3:44

. My son actually just turned nine .

3:46

Wow , so can

3:48

you elaborate a little more about

3:50

what a certified birth story

3:52

listener is , because that's not something that I'd heard

3:54

of before , but I think it's brilliant .

3:56

Yeah , I would be happy to . So you might think

3:58

that someone who is a

4:00

certified birth story listener would be someone who

4:02

sits down with you , listens

4:04

to your story , summarizes a little

4:07

bit , provides a little bit of active listening support

4:09

. It's kind of like a therapy session , that

4:11

sort of process , but it's really not like that

4:13

at all . It's truly a guided

4:15

process . It's meant to be sort of one

4:18

or two , mainly one and done . You

4:20

sit down , you set an intention

4:22

, you work through a very specific line

4:24

of steps that you talk through together

4:26

with someone like me or someone who's trained like

4:28

me , and then you work your way to

4:31

the end of the process where you are

4:33

identifying the limiting belief

4:35

that you gained from that experience , figuring

4:38

out where the trauma in your body

4:40

is actually sitting from that experience so that

4:42

your body can start to make that mind-body

4:44

connection . Boiling down the experience to

4:46

figure out what it is exactly that you

4:48

are kind of hung up on in

4:50

your experience , because our birth stories can sometimes seem

4:53

so big , they can seem so daunting

4:55

. There are so many things that were

4:57

emotionally challenging in that story , but

4:59

if we can really boil it down , what was the exact

5:01

thing that was really ? That's really

5:03

, really your heart is hung up on and

5:06

then start to figure out where that's sitting . We

5:08

can actually apply some of those somatic

5:10

processes to work through that . We

5:12

can develop a new belief around that

5:14

experience and we can truly transform

5:17

that story to have more meaning so

5:19

that you can move forward .

5:20

That is so interesting . It's kind

5:22

of what I did with my first birth , without

5:24

really knowing it , just because I'm a labor and delivery

5:27

nurse . What I realized was my

5:29

biggest issue was so I had an amnesia

5:31

, without being told that I had an amnesia , okay , and

5:34

the provider didn't explain it afterwards . It

5:36

wasn't until I got to postpartum where my colleagues said

5:38

, oh yeah , you have the sepsiaotomy and

5:40

a second degree tear , that's a lot . And I

5:42

was like , well , what happened

5:45

? And one year later is when I became a labor and delivery

5:47

nurse and then after that I asked for my

5:49

records and found out that the position

5:51

my daughter was in and the fact that she

5:53

had the cord around her neck made

5:56

the birth more emergent than I

5:58

understood or was

6:00

led to believe , I think , because I don't

6:02

think they were trying to freak me out . But they said you

6:04

know , you need to get her out in this one push

6:06

, and that's when they did the apesiaotomy

6:09

and I didn't realize it . So

6:11

, knowing what I know now the position that her

6:13

head was in when she came out according

6:16

to the records , plus the cord being

6:18

wrapped around her neck it completely reframed

6:20

my belief about what had happened Doesn't

6:22

excuse the fact that nobody told me what

6:24

happened , but it no longer

6:26

is something that holds a lot of trauma

6:29

or fear or Sadness

6:31

like it did before . Yeah

6:33

, that's really interesting . I love that there's

6:35

actually a process that

6:38

people are using for that .

6:39

Yeah , it's , I'm so grateful for it

6:42

. I know that when I actually

6:44

went through the birth story listening process myself

6:46

, I experienced great transformation from

6:48

it and was definitely able to

6:50

walk out of that room sort of feeling

6:52

like a new woman , realizing , oh

6:54

, like this is the thing that was

6:56

holding so much grief and so much heaviness

6:59

for me , and now I feel like that's lifted

7:01

just enough where I can take a deep breath

7:03

for the first time in 20

7:05

months .

7:06

Wow . So when was it that

7:08

you said this was a nine-year process ? When

7:11

was it that you changed your focus and

7:13

started working on the birth story listening ?

7:16

I actually started the birth story listening

7:18

certification program in

7:20

, I believe , march of this year

7:22

. So I started . It's Four

7:25

month program that you go through and

7:28

throughout it you're expected to Do

7:30

birth story listening sessions all throughout

7:32

. So I got lots and lots of experience and practice while

7:34

I was in the program and then also

7:36

have been doing sessions with people since

7:39

then . That's amazing .

7:40

And you said that you had two home

7:42

births afterwards . Yes , I would

7:44

assume you did some healing work in between

7:46

.

7:47

Yeah . So the conference that I mentioned

7:49

, the birth story listening session that I did

7:51

at the conference all of that was before

7:53

my second child was born . So

7:56

all of that healing work truly needed to be done

7:58

Before I was ready to kind of go down

8:00

that road again , because there was sort of

8:02

like a spiral of Sadness

8:04

I don't want to call it depression , because that's truly

8:06

not what it was for me . I've experienced depression and

8:08

trauma and depression were kind of different things

8:11

for me , but it was sort of an unraveling and

8:13

then , once I was able to kind of draw

8:15

that line in the sand , feel like things had

8:17

been shifted for me . I was able to start to rebuild

8:19

, become more empowered , become more disciplined

8:21

, develop the characteristics I needed

8:23

to develop as a person in order to have

8:26

the birth that I wanted . Because during my first birth I

8:28

know that one of my huge hang-ups was I was so

8:30

afraid of the fear of the waves

8:32

and the Contractions that I was experiencing

8:34

. It was really really hard to manage those , and

8:36

so I knew there was a lot of work

8:38

to do in terms of being able to manage

8:40

that discomfort the next time .

8:42

And what were you able to do to

8:45

manage that I ?

8:46

did a lot of things . The main thing that

8:48

I did was I read childbirth

8:50

without fear . That's a really , really

8:52

helpful resource about understanding

8:55

that fear and

8:57

pain kind of go hand in hand . Fear

9:00

is the piece that we let have

9:02

power over us , and pain is

9:04

a natural part of life and a part of childbirth

9:06

. So for me , I took that

9:09

message and I was like , okay , that makes perfect

9:11

sense to me . And then , all throughout my

9:13

second pregnancy , or my pregnancy with my

9:15

daughter , I did have a miscarriage in between also

9:17

, but the pregnancy where I

9:19

had my next live birth , every time I experienced

9:22

pain whether that was a stub toe , whether

9:24

that was a leg cramp I

9:27

used that opportunity to not

9:29

let that pain that I was experiencing hold

9:32

power over me . I would experience it

9:34

, I would feel it , but I wouldn't run

9:36

from it . I wouldn't fear it . That's really

9:38

amazing .

9:39

I'm writing that down because I think that

9:41

is so important . Yes , pain is a part of

9:43

life , and sometimes it's telling us something that we

9:45

need to pay attention to . I mean a stubbed

9:47

toe , if it's not broken , probably not as

9:50

much , but Definitely . Most

9:52

of childbirth is a normal physiological

9:55

process , as long as there's not a complication

9:57

developing . So the people

9:59

that I know that have had successful

10:01

natural births I am not one

10:03

of them have had normal physiological

10:06

Births . Their birth

10:08

was not dysregulated , there weren't any complications

10:11

, everything went smoothly , and so I

10:13

think it's important to keep in

10:15

mind that , as long as everything is progressing

10:17

Baby looks good

10:19

, you look good , you're not feeling anything that

10:21

feels pathophysiological Then

10:24

the pain shouldn't have to hold power

10:26

over you exactly . So I really like

10:28

that mindset .

10:29

Yeah , it was really , really helpful for me

10:31

because I definitely come from

10:33

a family where your mission in life almost

10:36

was like you avoid Pain at all costs . You

10:38

take Tylenol , you take ibuprofen , you Do

10:41

whatever you have to do to avoid pain

10:43

. And I realized as an adult you get , you can't

10:45

avoid pain . Pain is part of being

10:47

a human and it's especially

10:49

a part of childbirth , no matter

10:51

how you cut it . So , whether that's through

10:54

the recovery or the actual birth itself or

10:56

the breastfeeding or whatever , yeah

10:58

. There's gonna be discomfort

11:00

, that's true .

11:02

So then you had your C-section . Do

11:04

you mind if we go back to that at first , because you

11:06

did mention that you had

11:09

a different mindset surrounding the pain

11:11

and that there was an intervention cascade

11:14

and you ended up in , you said , an emergency

11:16

C-section and you had to Be sedated

11:18

for that . Would you be open to walking me

11:20

through that so that my listeners can kind

11:22

of understand what that might look like ?

11:25

Yeah , sure , so you want to hear the actual kind

11:27

of how the birth unfolded .

11:28

Yeah , because I feel like there's gonna be a

11:30

lot of value in how you went

11:32

from there , processing that trauma

11:35

and then changing Everything

11:37

so that you could have two successful births at

11:39

home without those interventions

11:42

. I would assume that the labors were similar

11:44

and there wasn't anything . Was there anything additional

11:46

going on that would have required the emergency C-section

11:48

?

11:49

No , definitely not so okay

11:51

. The way that things sort of want was I'll

11:53

share first that I Definitely had

11:55

a home birth on my heart for that first

11:57

birth . But I definitely was not in a place

11:59

where I was empowered enough to truly

12:02

make that decision on my own and stand in

12:04

my own Power in a place where I was like

12:06

this is what I want , this is what we're gonna do . So

12:08

I sort of let people shift my

12:10

perspective a little bit and I did find

12:12

a lovely hospital birth midwife , a CNM

12:15

, who was available and able

12:17

to take my case on at our

12:19

local hospital about 20 minutes away from

12:21

me . So great pregnancy , nothing

12:23

really concerning at all . I did

12:25

go to . I was 42

12:28

weeks and Baby was not here

12:30

yet . We did schedule an induction but

12:32

thankfully I had gone into labor

12:35

that night before my scheduled induction . So

12:37

you know , as a labor and delivery nurse

12:39

, the recommendation was definitely like labor

12:41

at home for as long as you can , if you truly

12:43

want a natural child birth , you should try to try

12:46

to stay home and make as much progress as you can

12:48

there . So I tried that . But the contractions

12:50

I was feeling were so overwhelming to me

12:52

they were something I had not expected . I

12:54

just truly could not wrap my

12:56

head around what was happening with my

12:58

body . It felt so intense to me , so naturally

13:01

, as a very naive young

13:03

woman , this must be it . My

13:05

baby must be on the way . So we raced

13:08

into the hospital and Got

13:10

there in the middle of the night and of course

13:12

my adrenaline was high because

13:14

we had made this transition and

13:16

my contractions pretty much just

13:19

stopped and we

13:21

spent the rest of the day just hanging out in

13:23

the delivery room and Didn't

13:26

do too much active laboring throughout the day

13:28

. Once nightfall came , my contractions

13:30

picked up again , which was really great . I

13:32

took a couple of baths and at

13:35

that point it had been about 23

13:37

hours . So you know the clocks ticking , the

13:39

baby needs to be born , even though I truly

13:41

had not really been in active labor

13:43

most of the day . So talked

13:45

with my midwife and we decided to to

13:48

rupture my waters and that's

13:50

sort of the the line in the sand where

13:52

we're like okay . So my

13:54

waters were released and that's

13:57

when my contractions became Way

13:59

more than I I felt like I could

14:01

handle . Just as a person who was

14:03

fearful of pain . I really wanted to be alone

14:06

, but there were just so many people around . So

14:08

at one point they tried to put more

14:10

water back in me type of thing or

14:12

say lean or whatever it was , to kind of like Take

14:15

some pressure off the baby . We labored for a while

14:17

longer and I was

14:19

just way out of sorts and

14:21

Told my midwife like I would like to do something

14:24

else . I am not interested in an epidural

14:26

, I am not interested in any pain medication

14:29

, and I think I sort of became unruly

14:31

at this point , and so the

14:33

doctor was thinking maybe there were some heart

14:35

decels . So the team pretty

14:38

much decided on an emergency C-section

14:40

. I don't think I really fully understood

14:42

what that meant at the time , but an anesthesiologist

14:45

did talk to me . I did sign paperwork , everything

14:47

was consented to technically

14:49

and then was wheeled off , but definitely

14:52

did not recognize in those moments that

14:54

my husband would not be with me , that my sister

14:56

would not be with me in the operating room . They

14:59

had my husband completely dressed in scrubs . It

15:01

wasn't until we were actually in

15:03

the operating room that the decision was made

15:05

that they needed to skip

15:08

a lot of the protocols

15:10

moving into a C-section , because they felt like

15:12

it needed to happen right away , and

15:14

so that's why my husband apparently was

15:16

not allowed to be in the room . So then

15:19

it was about four hours later

15:21

that I woke

15:23

up and my husband had been doing skin to

15:25

skin with the baby . My whole family had

15:27

sort of met the baby already . Then

15:29

they brought the baby into me and we had a wonderful

15:32

, beautiful bonding experience , and that

15:34

was definitely one of the most magical moments of my life

15:36

. I felt so at home , becoming a mom

15:38

for the first time . My husband and I named him

15:41

and definitely in those moments

15:43

felt like , oh , thank goodness I was at the hospital

15:45

, Thank goodness I was with a team of people

15:48

who were able to support me through this emergency

15:50

situation , but realizing with my

15:52

subsequent births that it was truly making

15:54

the decision to go to the hospital , a place that I

15:56

was not truly aligned with birthing , that

15:59

that was probably the reason that the cascade

16:01

of interventions kind of went

16:03

the way it did . So did you ?

16:05

ever find out what they thought the

16:07

concern was with the heartbeat ? Was

16:09

it ? Was your water broken and

16:12

did they explain what was going on there ?

16:13

I did request my records at one point

16:15

and I actually still have them , but I

16:18

decided that that information

16:20

was not essential for me in my

16:22

healing journey . I am much more

16:24

interested in the beliefs

16:26

I developed about myself during that experience

16:29

and not as interested in necessarily

16:31

what the doctors had to say about the experience

16:34

. I definitely know that rupturing

16:36

those waters and having

16:38

it be before I felt like my body was ready

16:41

for that was the thing that kind of shifted

16:43

things for the negative .

16:44

Yeah , do you remember about how long that

16:46

took ? So it was like- the water was

16:48

broken and they did the . I'm assuming you're talking about maybe a couple

16:51

of hours .

16:53

It was probably a couple hours Maybe

16:56

. It's hard to say , I don't remember

16:58

a lot of that time . I think I was probably

17:00

at the point where I was nearing transition

17:03

. Like you know , your brain kind of gets a little fuzzy

17:05

. My sister actually really remembers

17:07

those moments really really well and

17:09

I don't remember them as well . And

17:11

that's just how childbirth is right .

17:13

Yeah , exactly . Yeah , that's so

17:15

interesting . Yeah , I just

17:17

feel like there's a lot of missing information about why you ended up

17:19

having to go back so urgently . And

17:22

I mean , if you didn't have an epidural

17:24

, I could see , if the heart rate was staying down

17:26

continuously , why they chose to

17:29

have generally an anesthesia which would

17:31

require you to have a breathing tube . And then that's

17:34

what makes it so that nobody else can come in

17:36

the room , because there's more . It's way

17:38

more in depth as far as making

17:40

sure that you're breathing , and the anesthesiologist

17:43

has to be a lot more in tune to what's going on

17:45

.

17:45

That makes sense . I did have a breathing tube , for

17:47

sure , I remember .

17:48

Yeah , yeah . It just becomes

17:50

a lot more emergent in that situation , and

17:52

so having someone hanging out next

17:55

to you waiting for the baby

17:57

not as safe . The MSC section

17:59

is the only surgery that they ever allow

18:01

people in the OR , so

18:04

there's a line where you can't cross that because

18:06

they want to keep you safe . It always

18:08

is traumatic and I think that there is definitely

18:11

a lot more that we could do , that we need

18:13

to do to help

18:15

families feel a lot more

18:17

positive about that experience , because

18:21

it is terrifying to suddenly have to have all these things

18:23

happen to you and not fully have

18:25

that explained . Did they debrief it all

18:27

afterwards ?

18:28

I did have one meeting with the surgeon

18:30

after the fact . I think I

18:32

was about

20:17

two weeks postpartum , and

20:19

that meeting in and of itself was

20:21

extremely traumatic , just because

20:23

he said to me see

20:26

you in two years , implying

20:28

that I would be back with my next baby

20:30

for a repeat cesarean , which is perfectly acceptable

20:33

. Some people might choose that option . I knew

20:35

that that option already was not the option for

20:37

me and so that was probably

20:39

like a catalyst for like okay

20:41

, what do I have to do to make sure that that self-fulfilling

20:44

prophecy does not come true ?

20:45

Yeah , that's interesting because

20:48

I think a lot of us say that if you've

20:50

expressed the interest of having more children , we

20:52

know we'll probably see you again . It's

20:55

kind of just a fun little thing that

20:57

we say like welcome back .

21:00

But it doesn't Right , and

21:02

I think , when a nurse says it or a doctor , but when the surgeon

21:04

says it , it definitely has , it implies different

21:06

something different .

21:08

That's funny because the surgeon and the doctor are the same person

21:10

most of the time , but I guess it does have yeah

21:12

, it does have a different implication when it's for

21:15

you that person was the surgeon .

21:16

Yeah , if it was at all , and he was

21:19

the only person .

21:20

Yeah , who's only the surgeon ? Wow , it's

21:22

interesting to hear different perspectives because , coming

21:24

from the hospitals that I work at , where it's

21:26

all one team , I mean I'm going to really

21:29

think about it before I make

21:31

sure it's not like a traumatic birth experience . I

21:34

don't know that .

21:34

I say that when it is a traumatic birth experience

21:36

, but yeah , but I think that just

21:38

your podcast in general , of sort of bridging

21:40

this gap , of let's take some of these experiences

21:43

, let's take these conversations and make

21:45

providers aware of them and vice versa

21:47

, like , let's help both sides of the coin understand

21:50

so that everybody can have a better experience

21:52

. I think that that's such important work .

21:54

Gosh , I can't even tell you how much I've learned

21:56

in the past year since I started this podcast

21:58

, Just hearing other people's perspectives

22:00

. Because a big problem

22:03

is we as nurses only

22:05

see people in the hospital in that moment

22:07

in time . We never get to see them again , so we never unless

22:10

they ride or review we never hear

22:12

what they thought about the experience

22:14

. Most people don't comment . Most

22:17

who will just give it . If they do comment , they'll just give

22:19

a generic everything was fine . Or

22:21

if it was a completely negative experience , then

22:23

they give all this negative feedback and you're

22:25

not even sure where it came from , because we're

22:28

not out there trying to cause harm

22:30

, Emotional or physical

22:32

. So it's really hard to hear

22:34

when what you do

22:36

with one person is seen as positive

22:38

versus what you do with another

22:41

is seen as completely negative . So

22:43

it's sometimes hard . So I think it's definitely

22:46

necessary to have these conversations because

22:48

providers just truly don't know where we're

22:50

going wrong .

22:50

I completely agree , and I think that a lot of times

22:53

, specifically with people who

22:55

come for a birth story listening session , are

22:57

coming because of a story that's

22:59

sort of this underlying narrative

23:02

in their subconscious . It's this thing that they

23:04

keep kind of perseverating on . They're thinking

23:06

about it a lot and there's no one really

23:08

to tell it to , because you could tell your

23:10

doctor but it's not really going to shift anything

23:12

or change anything , nor is it even meant to . It's a very

23:15

personal experience that needs to be

23:17

worked through , and

23:19

so leaving a review or sending a letter or

23:21

something like that isn't necessarily going

23:24

to be a catalyst for shifting

23:26

the birthing person's mindset

23:28

. So that's why I think the process can

23:30

be so effective , because you're telling your story

23:32

to someone who can actually help you work through

23:34

it .

23:34

So , from the perspective of

23:37

someone that works as a labor

23:39

and delivery nurse with providers , I

23:41

see providers who have

23:43

their own trauma . I , as a

23:45

healthcare professional , have my own trauma , right

23:48

? Yes , so I

23:50

would imagine if I were to try to put myself

23:52

in the shoes of your provider , your surgeon

23:54

or whoever was involved with your birth . They

23:57

were doing the best that they knew

23:59

how to do in the moment , given

24:01

the parameters under which they

24:03

were practicing and by that I mean you

24:05

were probably not the only one in the hospital on

24:08

the labor and delivery unit at the time . They

24:10

were considering the people that they knew were coming in

24:13

. They were considering the people they knew were already there

24:15

and a lot of that is where

24:17

parents tend to feel

24:19

maybe rushed into this

24:22

labor process . And so

24:24

, therefore , the decision was made not

24:26

sure what all the factors were

24:28

, but I just listed some potentials . I'm not

24:30

sure if that was what was happening . The decision

24:33

was made for your water to be broken

24:35

. Then , after that , the

24:37

cascade of interventions occurred and

24:40

the providers chose to do what they felt

24:42

was best to maintain the physical

24:44

health of you and your baby .

24:46

I 100% agree . I still see the

24:48

doctor and the midwife . I have wonderful

24:50

relationships with them . I trust them

24:52

both so much . I just know that

24:54

the place for me to birth , for

24:57

my future births , was not there .

24:59

That is the most fair thing that I've ever heard anybody

25:01

say about their birth , because

25:04

I think that there's a lot of how do I put it

25:06

? Demonization on both sides . So

25:08

the provider , when they hear the feedback

25:10

of you made me have a C-section

25:13

they feel defensive and say

25:15

I wanted you to have a live baby , right

25:17

, yes , and I'm not

25:19

here because one , the potential

25:21

of having not

25:23

received a live baby is

25:25

horrible . But also we

25:28

are leaving out this whole person

25:30

that was involved in the process . And

25:33

while that person physically perhaps

25:35

came out healthy , or at least

25:37

the incision was sewn up

25:39

and maybe there weren't complications , what about

25:42

the emotional impact on that person ? And

25:44

when you're trying to save two lives , that's

25:46

where the provider trauma comes in . So

25:50

what's hard is when

25:52

you are inflicting those

25:54

procedures and interventions

25:57

on people . You know that it's going

25:59

to probably cause some

26:01

emotional and very definitely

26:03

physical scars , and yet you have

26:05

to do it anyway . And so then you're

26:08

traumatized and you have to stuff it down

26:10

, you being the provider , I being

26:12

the professional that assists the provider

26:14

. It's

26:17

really hard . And so then there's

26:19

this cycle of those things happening

26:22

continuously , and then we don't

26:24

have conversations afterwards on how to fix it

26:26

, and so we're just re-traumatized and re-traumatizing

26:28

other people , and it's just this vicious circle

26:31

and birth story listening sessions .

26:32

It's very common to do them with

26:34

providers , actually , because

26:37

you can carry , like you just said , trauma from

26:39

someone else's birth and

26:41

so oh , I do . Yeah , that's

26:43

part of why I'm doing this podcast and I'm

26:45

really come and work through those

26:48

sessions as well , you know , for

26:50

anyone who is

26:53

a birth storyteller .

26:54

So that could be , and suddenly I have so many

26:56

clients for you , let

27:00

me just give your card to everybody I know .

27:04

But it is really challenging and trauma can

27:06

happen in truly any setting , so it's not just

27:08

a hospital problem . Trauma is

27:10

simply when your

27:12

mind can't keep up with whatever

27:15

happened in your body physically , very much

27:17

like a polar bear who was

27:19

shot by a dart , you know

27:21

, and fell asleep , like any time

27:23

that you are in a scenario

27:26

where your mind couldn't fully comprehend

27:28

what happened to your body , or your mind

27:30

couldn't fully comprehend kind of what happened

27:32

in a certain scenario , trauma can happen

27:34

, and so that can be part of the fertility

27:36

process , it can be part of the breastfeeding process , it

27:39

can be part of a miscarriage . There's

27:41

so many opportunities for difficult

27:44

scenarios to come up during the early motherhood

27:47

or early parenting experience , and so

27:49

it's great to have someone and

27:51

a process for somewhere to go to

27:53

talk about it .

27:54

Yeah , I love that . I think that's amazing

27:56

. So then , from that

27:58

experience that you had with your first baby , what

28:00

were the steps that you took to become

28:03

confident in the home birth experience

28:05

, and who did you surround

28:07

yourself with in order to feel empowered to do that

28:10

?

28:10

Yeah , that's such a great question . I would say what

28:12

ultimately happened and I think

28:14

something that you said earlier made me think of this

28:16

was that I truly became

28:18

a person who could take responsibility

28:20

for my own decisions . I made

28:22

the decision to go to the hospital . I made

28:24

this decision to have a hospital midwife . I

28:27

made the decision to have my waters ruptured . I

28:29

made the decision to have a C-section . Those

28:32

were all my responsibility . They were

28:34

not my provider's fault . There

28:36

were no victims to blame . There

28:38

were no villains in my story

28:41

. My healing journey was realizing

28:43

, if I didn't like those decisions that I made

28:45

in the past , that past Emmy made

28:47

, and she made the right decisions for her at the time

28:50

. She didn't have to make those same decisions

28:52

again . She could stand in her power and be

28:54

a person who could make decisions that

28:56

were truly aligned with her heart in the future . So

28:58

the process that I went through in order to get

29:01

to that place , which was a long and grueling process

29:03

for sure , with a lot of work that needed

29:05

to be done I started out by

29:08

truly connecting with people in my community

29:10

who had experienced similar things . We had a doula

29:13

who was running a postpartum

29:15

group at the time . So I ended up in a room

29:17

very fresh postpartum , with other

29:20

women who found a lot of meaning

29:22

in their birth experience , who expressed that

29:24

it was a big deal to them , no matter how it

29:26

went . So I knew right off the bat I

29:28

wasn't alone and that if I felt

29:30

really strong feelings , a heaviness about this

29:32

birth that I had experienced , that was okay

29:34

, that was normal , that was something that lots

29:37

of people experienced . So that gave me the permission

29:39

to kind of start talking about it a lot and to start

29:41

trying to find resources to

29:44

figure out the next step for me . And so

29:46

I actually came across two really important books

29:48

. One of them is Burthing from

29:50

Within by Pam England , and

29:52

it outlines a process for doing

29:54

birth trauma healing

29:56

artwork . And so I started

29:59

doing a lot of that and the purpose for that

30:01

is truly finding a pathway for

30:03

working that trauma out of your body through moving

30:05

your hands and getting in motion

30:07

. And then I also came across the book

30:09

Healing Trauma by Peter Levine , and

30:12

he has a somatic process

30:14

, all of these exercises in his book for

30:16

working trauma out of the body . And so what

30:18

I would do was I would feel really , really

30:20

triggered when I had a friend who

30:22

was about to give birth , when I knew anybody was

30:25

going to the hospital to give birth , when I knew

30:27

people went into labor , when people told

30:29

me their birth stories all of these things would fill

30:31

me with such a discomfort . It was like my

30:33

face got red , like all of those signs

30:35

of feeling triggered , and so I would actually

30:38

just go to a separate space . I

30:40

would kind of feel into my body and be like , okay

30:42

, like it's sitting on my chest or feel

30:44

like it's coming up my throat and I would

30:46

just jog in place or do whatever

30:48

I needed to do to sort of work that feeling

30:50

out of my body . And that really helped me

30:53

to begin to shift and

30:55

make that mind-body connection for where my trauma

30:57

was actually sitting . And luckily I'm

31:00

a psychologist so I knew

31:02

a lot of these things . I had this background that most people

31:04

did not have or would not have in this

31:06

situation . I had lots and lots of knowledge

31:08

of trauma and triggers and I know what it

31:10

looks like because I saw it in my job every

31:12

day with kids who have behavior challenges , and

31:15

so those were definitely the initial

31:18

steps . But then learning about birth

31:20

story listening I've done two sessions

31:22

now , one for two different births , one for myself

31:24

and one for the birth I attended for my sister . That

31:26

didn't really necessarily go as planned and

31:29

all of those things sort of led me to transform

31:32

the trauma I had experienced , to release it from

31:34

my body , to feel like I can confidently

31:36

speak about my birth , like I'm doing today . I can

31:38

speak about that past situation

31:40

up until about three years after

31:43

the birth . I would stay , I would still break down in tears if

31:46

I would try to tell that story to anyone and

31:48

from there the healing journey

31:50

or the transformative journey of

31:52

feeling like an empowered person , was

31:54

truly developing that discipline

31:57

. So for my second birth , saying

31:59

I feel like I really want to

32:01

be physically fit for this birth . I

32:03

feel like I really want to know about spinning

32:06

babies and do birth yoga to

32:08

prepare my body for my birth

32:10

so that my baby can be in the best position

32:12

possible , and having the discipline

32:14

to say I'm going to do that yoga routine

32:17

every other day , I'm going to tell my baby

32:19

her birth story . I'm going to visualize the

32:21

birth that I want to have . I'm going to do the

32:23

physical and spiritual work in

32:25

the hopes of having the birth that I want to

32:27

have .

32:28

Yeah , that is . There's so much . That came up

32:30

for me when you were describing all of that

32:32

. That's amazing , one of the things

32:34

that I think that we see

32:36

, that I see , especially when someone

32:38

is talking about their birth story or

32:41

, like you had said , when people say

32:43

that they're going to go into the hospital to give birth

32:46

, I see a lot of recently

32:48

delivered people kind

32:50

of dumping their birth story onto

32:53

those people . I

32:56

feel like it doesn't

32:58

have to be recently delivered , actually , like

33:00

, if you think about it , that's where some of that ancestral

33:03

trauma comes in , where it's like your mom

33:05

, your mom's mom , all these people talk

33:07

about how their birth went down and how

33:09

it's like they still have , they haven't healed

33:12

from that .

33:12

Exactly exactly , and that's truly

33:15

why I got into this work , because I

33:17

have experienced and lots of people

33:19

I know who are childbearing age definitely

33:22

do this trauma dumping , I

33:24

like to call it , where we tell everyone the really

33:26

bad things that happened to us during our birth . And

33:29

the birth story listening process offers a

33:31

different opportunity where we can share

33:33

our story with someone , a trusted professional

33:35

, who can help guide us through it and

33:37

then also help us to find

33:39

the wisdom in the meaning in the story that we carry . So

33:42

we can share that instead

33:44

of the horrifying things , because sharing

33:46

our negative story with someone else most likely

33:48

isn't going to help Be a cautionary

33:51

tale to someone else that's going to actually help

33:53

them navigate the process .

33:54

That's almost never the case , Right

33:56

that's just gonna scare them and make the

33:58

process harder for them . Right , right

34:00

, yeah , that's definitely not what we want . So

34:02

then , along those same lines , first

34:05

of all , if someone does feel

34:07

like they have the

34:09

urge to do the trauma dumping , would

34:12

you agree that that's probably a sign

34:14

that they need to process that

34:16

experience that they've been through ?

34:18

So a lot of times I would say yes . I

34:20

think a lot of people are not necessarily

34:22

at the point where they

34:24

would maybe Receive that feedback

34:27

, where they would say , oh , like

34:29

I agree with you right , because

34:31

and the reason for that is in our birth

34:34

story listening training , we actually learn about

34:36

seven different story gates that a

34:38

birth storyteller goes through . So a birth

34:40

story actually transforms

34:42

many times . So we initially

34:44

have that part , that story , that we tell when we're still

34:46

in the hospital , where we're like there might be this Saviour

34:48

idea like , oh my gosh , thank goodness I was

34:50

here . This is the medicalized version of

34:52

the story . The story Transforms

34:55

when we get home and we tell a different story

34:57

to the people in our family who come over to visit

34:59

the baby and then , as time goes on , tell

35:01

a story that's you know the short , quick version

35:03

that will tell somebody at the park who asked oh

35:06

, how did your birth go ? And then from there

35:08

it Transitions into I have this story

35:10

and I'm wondering about

35:12

these parts of it . I'm I'm seeking

35:14

more information and I'm curious about

35:16

why this happened , and then it

35:18

continues to shift from there . So if

35:20

we think about all of the different ways the story changes

35:23

, we can have a better understanding of

35:25

where we're at in that process

35:27

, where we're at in our own Processing of

35:29

our story , so that we know what

35:31

the right intervention for us Us is at

35:33

the time . Because when I first experienced

35:36

my birth and all of the heavy

35:38

emotions that came with it , I was definitely

35:40

not ready to do a birth story listening session . I

35:43

shoved that story down for a while , I wasn't ready

35:45

to talk about it , and then I became more ready

35:47

to talk about it , but I definitely wouldn't have told

35:49

anyone except my sister type of situation

35:51

and as time goes on I was seeking resources

35:54

. And then you know , everybody goes through their

35:56

own process when they're working through something

35:58

really hard , something really emotional and that

36:00

Expands way beyond , you know , birth

36:03

stories , any kind of trauma that someone might experience

36:05

, a car accident or a medical situation or

36:08

the death of someone yeah , I definitely

36:10

identify with that processing .

36:12

I mean , I went through the . I

36:14

was lucky that I had labor and delivery nurses to talk

36:16

to . Yeah

36:20

so I really I

36:22

wonder how other people do it

36:24

when they don't have those people . So it's fascinating

36:27

to me that there's resources out

36:29

there and I want to be able to help people tap into

36:31

those . The other thing that came up for me you talked

36:33

about a while back , when you said that

36:35

you didn't have any negative feelings towards

36:37

your doctor or your midwife . That

36:40

really resonated with me because I

36:42

felt the same way . So I delivered

36:44

. I went into labor naturally with my daughter

36:46

, which was more important to me than scheduling

36:48

an induction so that I could have the provider than I knew and

36:50

trusted . Since I worked at the Hospital that

36:52

I Delivered at , I had a general

36:55

sense of who the providers

36:57

were and what their track record

36:59

was . So when I got the

37:01

doctor that I got , I was a little

37:03

Nervous because

37:05

her intervention rates were higher than others

37:08

, but she had a very good bedside manner

37:10

and I think what

37:12

I learned from that scenario is

37:15

like you were talking about you're the one Making

37:18

the decisions and it doesn't just

37:20

because somebody's recommending something doesn't

37:22

always mean you have to accept it , but

37:25

I would invite you to truly understand

37:27

why they're recommending it . I was

37:30

a little bit more defensive than normal

37:32

, I think . Because of this , I

37:34

knew this provider had higher C-section

37:37

rates and Intervention rates in general

37:39

, so I ultimately sought a

37:41

second opinion from a trusted friend , which

37:44

I'm not sure if I recommend that I

37:46

.

37:46

Can go away . I mean , it can go well and it can

37:48

not go well right .

37:50

Providers don't like that . But

37:53

in that situation I got who I got and so I pushed

37:55

back and I did not accept the C-section . I

37:58

was allowed to labor for a little bit longer

38:00

and luckily somebody else was required

38:02

more attention on the floor and because I

38:04

was mostly status quo , it was fine

38:06

. But I don't feel like the provider

38:08

had the worst intentions . I don't

38:10

think she had negative intentions at all and

38:13

I still Believe that she is

38:15

a good person and good provider . I'd not . It's

38:17

not personal . So I think that keeping

38:20

that mindset like you're talking about , where

38:22

you can be accountable for your decisions

38:25

and also seek

38:27

to understand why somebody is recommending

38:29

them and Also ask

38:31

if it's imperative that these things happen

38:34

, I feel like that's kind of like the

38:36

trifecta for maintaining your

38:38

autonomy in the hospital setting . Because

38:40

if those three pieces are not all

38:43

in place , then you start

38:45

to wonder if you made the right decision , because

38:48

it was your first birth and you were

38:50

feeling like you were consenting

38:52

to the things that they recommended . Because you took

38:54

them as this is what needs to

38:56

happen , then you felt

38:58

a little bit like you lost some of your power in

39:00

that decision , even though you did consent to it

39:02

.

39:03

Yeah , yeah and I would definitely say it's

39:05

very normal and okay for

39:07

that perspective to shift over

39:09

time . So , like right after my birth , I

39:12

was so grateful for my providers . A little

39:14

ways out , I was angry with them , I

39:17

was mad , I blamed them and

39:19

as time went on , I stepped

39:21

into being an adult woman

39:23

where I was like okay , well , I made that

39:25

decision to be there , it was my responsibility to be

39:27

educated , it was my responsibility to birth where

39:29

I wanted to birth and that's

39:31

what I chose and that's what I got . And now I

39:33

have to figure out where to go from here .

39:35

Yeah , I had that exact same feeling

39:37

. I did not feel comfortable with a home birth and I knew

39:39

in the hospital that those interventions were a possibility

39:41

and more likely and that I had to be defensive

39:44

, which is sad but also

39:46

lends itself to how important it is to have

39:48

a provider that you align with and to really

39:50

do that Definitely Pre-work and

39:52

understand what you're getting yourself into

39:54

, what it entails to have a birth , what

39:57

the possible complications are , and if

39:59

you're in that moment which I just want all

40:01

birthing people to know when you're in that moment

40:03

you are not in the same frame of mind ever

40:06

as you are normally . That's

40:08

definitely true . Yes , your brain will

40:10

not be braining on the same level , right

40:12

, you are not the same human being . So

40:14

that prep work is so important

40:17

and the ability to

40:19

look at your provider and trust them fully

40:22

, because you know that you have

40:24

the same philosophy on

40:26

interventions . That is imperative

40:29

, because I literally have

40:31

the same birth experience

40:33

. It was copy-paste , other than

40:35

an additional intervention with my second

40:37

child , and it had zero trauma

40:39

, so it wasn't the interventions that caused

40:41

the trauma . It was my

40:44

lack of preparation that caused the trauma

40:46

and my lack of being able to fully trust

40:48

my provider . So I just I

40:50

cannot stress enough how key it is to

40:52

be prepared and to know that

40:54

your provider is someone you fully

40:57

trust .

40:57

Yeah , and I would also say , for me it

41:00

boiled down to trusting myself fully

41:02

in those moments where

41:04

a difficult question comes up , do I trust

41:06

myself to listen to my heart and say what's

41:09

true for me ? In those moments , will

41:11

I make an aligned decision or will I sway a

41:13

little bit because of what someone else is telling

41:15

me ? And like you said , you know , get

41:17

all of the information , get all the details , get

41:19

all of the facts , but you still have

41:21

to be able to trust yourself to make the decisions that

41:24

you want to make .

41:24

Yeah , yeah , that is really important . I'm

41:26

trying to think of how we can advise listeners

41:29

to be able to even do that , and I guess

41:31

I'm still just going back to prep work and making sure

41:33

that you have a provider that you align with . Maybe

41:36

you could also have a conversation with whoever

41:38

your support person is and just you

41:40

know really express your wishes and

41:43

what your priorities are and talk

41:45

to people , like if you have a doula or

41:47

a midwife or your OB provider , about

41:49

what additional questions should my spouse be

41:51

asking , or my partner or

41:53

my mom , whoever it is , it's at the bedside with

41:55

you If I start to not be able to make those

41:57

decisions , if I'm just so overwhelmed that

41:59

I don't ask the right questions .

42:02

Right .

42:03

But you do have to have somebody that you trust

42:05

that's in the procedural driver's

42:07

seat for all that to happen anyway . So I

42:09

wish there was like some just magic formula work . We

42:11

could be like this is how you have a successful birth

42:14

, but it is so nuanced and there's so much , there's

42:18

so much that goes into it and even

42:20

then it's like whoops , that's

42:22

not how I planned it .

42:23

Yeah , we're mammals , so there will always be the opportunity

42:26

for things to not go as planned . That's

42:28

just how our bodies are made . But for

42:31

me , I know learning to trust myself

42:33

truly started with meditation

42:35

and being able to sit quietly and

42:38

hear what my intuition had to say before

42:41

making a decision . And that doesn't necessarily apply

42:43

to birth , because you don't do a lot of sitting

42:46

quietly during birth , but

42:48

it's the practice , it's the doing

42:50

it over and over again . Where you're like I felt

42:52

that pain or I felt you know I

42:54

was able to articulate what I heard during

42:56

the time that I was spent listening to myself , and

42:59

for others that might be prayer , you know , whenever

43:01

we're sitting quiet , that's how we we learn to listen

43:04

. And then , from learning to listen and take action on

43:06

that information , that's how we learn to trust ourselves . And

43:08

we can practice that many , many , many , many times

43:10

before we actually go into a birthing experience

43:13

.

43:13

Yeah , that's true . Yeah , learning to trust

43:15

yourself is really , really important , and

43:17

it doesn't necessarily . I think there's one key

43:19

part of that . If you're not a meditating

43:21

person like I'm not a meditating person

43:23

or if you're someone that you

43:26

know doesn't do a whole lot of sitting quietly

43:28

, there's a pause that you can take where

43:30

you just ask yourself is this one

43:32

step that I'm about to take the one that's going to

43:34

take me in the right direction ? Because I think it's really

43:36

easy to get overwhelmed by all

43:39

of the stuff that's going on , and if you

43:41

could just dial it back to just that one

43:43

next step like this is I'm still

43:45

on the pathway ? Am I still on the pathway that I want to be on ? Am

43:47

I still going towards my goal , even though it's

43:50

all the way over there ? Am I still on the right path ? And

43:52

it doesn't have to be this huge , overwhelming

43:54

thing . You can just make one step that

43:56

keeps you in the right direction , and if you break it down

43:58

to that , I think it's a little bit less scary

44:00

, I definitely agree .

44:01

One time someone told me imagine

44:04

you're rolling a dice before it lands

44:06

. You know what you want it to land on in

44:08

those moments right before it lands . So that

44:10

can kind of be another guiding light , that's

44:12

your focus .

44:13

That's what you're hoping for , because you need more

44:16

tips and strategies on .

44:17

you know also , how does that decision work ?

44:21

Well , I mean was there anything else that we didn't

44:23

talk about that you wanted to bring up

44:25

? I don't think so .

44:25

I think we covered so much . I feel like we had such

44:28

a deep , meaningful conversation . I've

44:30

just really enjoyed talking to you .

44:32

Same . I'm looking down and I'm

44:34

like , wow , 55 minutes , how did that happen ? Time

44:36

just flew Well . I'm looking forward to

44:38

seeing what you're doing in the future and sending

44:41

some providers your way , man Like

44:44

and nurses . There's a lot of us that need to

44:46

like go back and relive some

44:49

of our experiences and reframe them .

44:51

Yes , for sure , and it's not because it's anybody's

44:53

fault , it's just because this is what

44:56

being a human is . It's

44:58

having different experiences and having them feel different

45:00

ways . That is profound , I mean

45:02

. Thank you so much .

45:03

You're welcome . Thanks for having me .