0:28

Hello , today I have with me

0:31

Kiona Nessenbaum . Kiona

0:33

is a doula , a birth assistant

0:36

, and has experience as a student

0:38

midwife . She's also the mother of

0:40

three and the host of the Birth

0:42

as we Know it podcast . Today

0:45

she is here to share her birth stories and

0:47

how she manages to balance motherhood

0:49

and all of her other endeavors . Kiona

0:52

, thank you so much for joining me .

0:54

Yeah , no problem , I'm super excited

0:56

and , to be honest , a little nervous .

0:58

I am super used to hosting , but I

1:00

am not used to being the one interviewed

1:03

, so yeah , well , no one

1:05

knows your birth stories better than you

1:07

, so I'm sure that once you get into it you're

1:09

not even going to remember I'm here . Yeah , that's

1:11

probably true . So I'm curious

1:13

, because you mentioned that you did

1:16

not start off as a birth worker when

1:18

you went into your first birth , and

1:20

I want to know how that was for you and

1:22

then what .

1:23

So let's get ready to not hear

1:25

Kelly for a while , because I have a lot to

1:28

say . So I'll just go

1:30

ahead and start off with finding out

1:32

that I'm pregnant , right ? So I

1:34

am 19 years old and

1:37

I find out that I am pregnant with my

1:39

first child and at the time my

1:41

boyfriend , who is now my husband . But my boyfriend

1:44

was 18 years old and

1:46

a senior in high school . So I was

1:48

in my first year of college and

1:51

we were shocked that we were pregnant

1:53

, but at the same time , I like to think

1:55

of it being as we

1:58

weren't intentionally trying , but we also

2:00

weren't intentionally preventing , Because

2:02

I was on birth control . But I

2:05

ended up stopping being on birth control

2:07

because when I went into college , I actually went

2:09

to a Christian private university

2:11

called Seattle Pacific University and

2:13

so I stopped taking birth control because at that

2:15

time I was , like I am a strong

2:17

believer of God , like abstinence is the way

2:20

to go . Man , was I so

2:22

stupid ? Because I was

2:24

already . I already had had sex before , right

2:26

, and so once you feel the feels , you

2:28

can't not want them anymore

2:31

. And so , of course

2:33

, me and my boyfriend at the time , who is my

2:35

husband I'm just going to call him from my husband

2:37

from here and out but me and my husband at the time

2:40

were still doing the dirty and

2:42

I was like Just praying to God afterwards

2:44

, right . Please

2:46

forgive us . Yeah , we have

2:48

sinned , you know . And

2:50

then I ended up being pregnant and

2:53

it was a surprise , but , like I said , we

2:55

weren't preventing it . So once I got pregnant

2:58

, I really , really

3:00

, really intentionally wanted to have

3:02

an unmedicated birth . And

3:04

at this time , with being so young , the insurance

3:07

I was on was state insurance and so

3:09

I was like all right , what does my insurance

3:11

offer me ? Where can I go to birth ? And

3:13

my first thought was OK , let me go to a hospital

3:15

, because that's all I knew . That's all I

3:18

knew at the time , and little

3:20

did I know . Throughout my pregnancy

3:22

I was heavily looking for midwifery

3:25

care through an OB because

3:27

I thought that my insurance

3:30

only covered OBs

3:32

right , and so I went through my whole pregnancy

3:34

. I even fired my OB once and

3:36

got a new one and tried

3:38

to do all that I could to make sure

3:40

that I was getting high quality care

3:42

and it was met

3:45

. But it wasn't that midwifery care I was looking

3:47

for . But my provider that I chose was

3:49

awesome Can't say I remember

3:51

their name now , but it felt right . And

3:53

that OB did not end up being the

3:55

OB that was present at my birth , which

3:58

is really common in hospital

4:00

births . I actually ended up getting the laborist

4:02

that was on the floor . I must have been birthing

4:05

on a super busy day , but let me

4:07

go into when I started labor

4:10

with her . So when I went into labor

4:12

I was at my mother-in-law's house because

4:14

I had lived with her at the time and I had woken

4:16

up . My husband and said , hey , I think things are rolling

4:19

. And I did all the

4:21

things of like taking a shower , and

4:23

the funny part is I realized

4:25

I was in labor when my bowels decided to just

4:28

empty everything .

4:29

Yes , it is such a real thing .

4:32

Yeah , people don't talk about it , I don't know . Your body

4:34

kind of just ejects everything , and so

4:36

I was like , ok , my contractions

4:38

are getting closer and so I wake up my husband around 2

4:40

am . We end up stopping a block

4:42

away to pick up his best friend at the time , because

4:44

he lived a block away and

4:47

my husband is an only child , so he wanted his

4:49

best friend because it's like the closest thing he has to a sibling

4:52

to be by his side to support him on his journey

4:54

to parenthood .

4:55

And I was all for it , OK , cool .

4:57

I was like , OK , that's cool , whatever . But I can't

4:59

say I can say that now . But

5:01

when we stopped when I was in labor , I was like you got

5:03

to be kidding me , we just need to go , you

5:05

know . So we get to the hospital . I

5:08

really really thought that I was going to love the tub

5:10

, but when I got checked

5:12

in I did not love

5:14

the tub because the hospital didn't let me

5:16

or the nurse at the time did

5:18

not let me make the water as hot as I wanted to make it

5:20

, and you know there's policies

5:22

in the hospital you can't have your water too high because

5:25

you're burning yourself

5:27

or boiling the baby , I don't know what it is . But

5:29

at the time I was just so angry because I wanted it so

5:31

bad and it didn't work

5:33

. And then I got out and I was so cold

5:36

and I feel like it just really impacted

5:38

my labor because I was so cold . Labor

5:40

continued to progress and

5:43

my husband is completely terrified

5:45

of blood . So that's something

5:47

that is hard to be afraid

5:49

of when you have a laboring partner

5:52

, because blood is part of it , right . And

5:54

so there was one point in my labor

5:56

when I was like , babe , I really need you to push on my back

5:58

, Like , oh , I was having like a lot of back

6:01

pain , not like osteoporosis , you're

6:03

wrong .

6:04

Sonny side up . There you go , face

6:06

up .

6:07

Yeah , not a face up baby , but my back

6:09

was feeling it right and little did . I

6:11

know I was closer to actually giving

6:13

birth , but he was giving me counter

6:15

pressure and I was like , oh , I think my water broke because I

6:17

felt some fluid come out . And he looked

6:19

and it was not water , it was blood

6:21

, it was a lot of bloody show just coming

6:24

out and saying your cervix has changed , you know

6:26

. So he freaked

6:28

out and he decided that that

6:30

was the time to go grab

6:32

my sister . So my sister

6:35

came in and I'm a party

6:37

birther so I love everybody

6:39

around . So when COVID happened I was terrified because

6:42

I was like no people need their families

6:44

, but yeah . So he

6:46

decided to take that as an opportunity to

6:48

step back into the corner , take

6:50

his glasses off and not see anything anymore , but

6:52

still be there , you know .

6:53

And I was like that's cool .

6:55

Know your boundaries , that's right , that's OK . So my

6:57

sister was there and fast forward

6:59

a little bit . My mother , my

7:01

stepmother , my bonus mom , she was

7:03

there with me and the thing I

7:05

love the most about her being

7:07

present was that she was a quiet

7:09

voice . And she was the quiet voice that was in

7:11

the space . You know , there's all of these

7:14

beeping machines , there's all of the questions that

7:16

are asked by the providers that are trying to make you comfortable

7:18

and know what's going on , and she was

7:20

the only quiet voice . And at

7:23

that time I was like a little bit more religious

7:25

, and I'm personally not religious now . Anyway

7:28

, that's the whole thing .

7:29

But I've been there , yeah .

7:32

And so she was like praying

7:34

, really quietly , saying like God

7:36

, please guide my daughter through this labor . She

7:38

really needs this to be calm and smooth

7:41

and stuff like that . And I

7:43

needed that so much at that time

7:45

and I didn't realize it , but

7:47

I needed it so bad . And then a little

7:49

bit later on I got checked and I was about

7:51

nine and a half centimeters . I had an anterior lip

7:53

, and so the nurse

7:55

told me to get them all fours and she was like , just do this

7:57

for five contractions . And I was like

7:59

, five contractions , jesus Christ , like these are

8:01

insane . You know , it was so , so

8:04

hard . And I got through those

8:06

five contractions and oh , I should

8:08

say , right before when she checked

8:10

me , they broke my water because they said that it would

8:13

speed things along and

8:15

I was like , okay , so rude . Yeah , I

8:17

was like , okay , like nine centimeters , okay

8:19

. And so after those five contractions

8:22

, I was complete and they said that I could push . And

8:24

then my baby came and it was great and

8:27

she was so cute and squishy

8:29

. And then the nurse at the time

8:31

looked at our daughter and then

8:33

looked directly at my husband , was like she looks so much like

8:35

you and then he started crying

8:37

. I know I was like , oh God

8:40

, I did all this work and she looks

8:42

just like her dad . Thank you .

8:44

And there's a reason for that , like evolutionary

8:46

reason for that At least I tell myself

8:49

that . So , if there was , like no

8:51

DNA test , that the male parental

8:53

partner might look at the baby and say , oh yeah

8:55

, I'll stick around , that's mine .

8:56

Yeah , and not like kill or eat the baby

8:59

or something , right ?

9:01

If it looks like Joe down the street , he's probably not going to stick

9:03

around , right ? So it's probably a good thing

9:05

.

9:05

Yeah , which is true

9:07

. I guess the nurse was feeling really primal

9:09

at that time when she said that , but

9:11

that was super awesome . And then I didn't figure out

9:14

. Going into my postpartum , my

9:16

breastfeeding was super simple . I did

9:18

have it was my first time

9:20

and I did have a really scary moment

9:22

. About two weeks postpartum I was nursing

9:25

my baby and she was coughing up little

9:27

blood clots , and so that was really scary

9:29

for me . And then one day she was wearing

9:31

this like pristine white

9:33

onesie Right , and then

9:35

she spits up and it's literally all

9:37

bright red blood . And I

9:39

am terrified as a new mom . I

9:42

am like what the hell is going on

9:44

? Is my baby dying ? Is she bleeding

9:46

internally ? Everything else about her seemed totally

9:48

fine . She wasn't crying , she wasn't

9:50

doing anything . That was unusual

9:53

. So of course I call my hospital

9:55

, tell them what's going on . And

9:58

the nurse that was on the hotline was like check

10:00

out your nipples , what do your nipples look

10:02

like ? And I look at my nipples , like

10:04

, yes , breastfeeding is painful , but

10:07

it's not unbearable for me . There were some moments

10:09

where I'm like , ooh , this latch is really intense . I

10:11

look at my nipples and I'm like I

10:13

don't know . They're just like swollen and cracked

10:16

a little bit . And she's like okay , what I want

10:18

you to do is I want you to go grab

10:20

your breast pump . Do you have a breast pump ? I said yes , and

10:23

she's like , if it comes out

10:25

with a pink hue , it means

10:27

that your baby is consuming a lot of blood from

10:29

your nipples . And I was like , okay , and

10:32

oh my gosh , it was like the pinkest

10:34

of all pink . It was like strawberry

10:36

milk and I was like , oh my God

10:38

, she was spitting up the milk that her

10:40

body can't digest and

10:43

it was completely

10:45

terrifying . But I was glad to know that it was like because

10:47

of me and not because my baby was dying

10:49

. So that was a huge thing for me

10:52

. And that was just the beginning of

10:54

my breastfeeding journey and so , of course

10:56

, I continue to pay more attention to my nipples

10:58

throughout my journey . But it got

11:00

better and smoother and I would say

11:02

the biggest I'm going to be honest here

11:04

one of the biggest struggles I had is I have really

11:06

big nipples and my

11:08

baby has a really small mouth , and

11:11

so I'm like , how

11:14

are we doing this ? So

11:16

I'm that parent . That's like jamming

11:18

my baby onto the breast as soon as their mouth is open

11:21

. And yeah

11:23

, the rest of the breastfeeding journey was fine , but

11:25

as a postpartum mom who was reflecting

11:28

on her labor

11:30

and pregnancy , I

11:33

had realized that my mother , my

11:35

bonus mom , being

11:37

so quiet in the space , I

11:39

really wanted to be that person for someone else . So

11:42

that's when I started looking into birth work and

11:45

I was like , looking into , okay , I want

11:47

to be a midwife , what does it take to

11:49

be a midwife ? And then , when I was

11:51

looking into being a midwife , some article that I found

11:53

was like well , if you are interested in being a midwife

11:55

, you should try being a doula first , because

11:57

of the on call life and

11:59

like all this stuff . And I was like , what's a doula ? What

12:01

the heck is a doula ? And so I look it up and

12:04

I'm like , oh cool , let me start there

12:06

. You know , I don't need any medical training . It's

12:08

something that seems tangible

12:10

to me right now , because the training

12:13

that you get or at least the training that

12:15

I got at the time was just a weekend smash

12:17

course kind of training . And so I was like , cool , I'll

12:20

do that . And so I took

12:22

the training , and my daughter was

12:24

one by the time . I took the training

12:26

and it was awesome . I

12:29

had a lot of fun , I learned a lot . I

12:31

felt like I was the

12:33

birth guru after taking

12:35

this weekend . Course , you know , I was like I know exactly

12:38

what to do . But I feel like the reason why I

12:40

felt that way was because I have always

12:43

had this instinct of helping others , like

12:45

when I was in college when I first

12:47

found out I was pregnant with my daughter . I actually wanted

12:49

to take pre-rex for nursing because I wanted to be an

12:51

OB nurse . Like I wanted to be on the

12:53

labor and delivery ward . And that changed

12:56

things because I couldn't do that . I was

12:58

too sick and everything . In my first trimester I

13:00

was like I ain't doing this . So I

13:02

leaned into taking the easier classes because I still

13:04

just wanted to make go

13:06

towards the degree rather than pausing and stopping

13:08

and not being in school . So

13:11

my daughter was one when I took the doula

13:13

training . But I didn't take my first client

13:16

until about two years later . And

13:19

yeah , I was trained as a doula . I was super immersed

13:21

in birth . I was doing like all of these doula

13:23

meet and greets and like talking with other doulas , like

13:26

what is it like ? Like how are you running your business

13:28

and all of this stuff . And , of course

13:30

, I was like begging my older sisters to have kids

13:32

and they didn't back

13:35

then , like hurry up and have a kid so I can

13:37

help you . And so I

13:40

was in a class and I had found

13:42

out that one of my classmates was pregnant . She was a friend

13:44

of mine and I was like , oh my God , this might be weird

13:46

, but can I be your doula ? You know , like can

13:49

I please be your doula ? And she was like , oh , what's a doula

13:51

? And then so we get into the whole doula thing

13:53

and the birth conversations and she talks about what her

13:55

first birth was like , and then I support her with her second

13:57

. It was like when I ended

14:00

up , so I actually didn't even

14:02

end up making it to her actual birth , because

14:04

she birthed really fast . Her

14:06

first birth she ended up birthing

14:09

in the ambulance on the way to the

14:11

hospital . And her second birth

14:13

was faster than that and she was her

14:15

husband , was talking to me and texting me and

14:18

was like , hey , she's having some

14:20

contractions and things . And I was like , okay with

14:22

being my first client , I'm like ask

14:24

her these things , and like she's in labor , me

14:27

not knowing like how far in labor she is . English

14:29

wasn't her first language and so it was more

14:32

of just like trying to navigate the whole . When

14:34

should I come , you know , because I don't want to be like , okay , I'm coming

14:36

now . And so she , he's

14:39

on the phone with me and

14:41

he's like she's pushing in

14:44

the bathtub right now and

14:47

I have a feeling I'm about to

14:49

catch a baby . And I was like , okay

14:51

, where do you want me to meet you ? Like

14:54

, do you want me to meet you at home ? Do

14:56

you want , are you gonna go to the hospital ? Like , cause

14:58

this is , they did not plan on having a home birth

15:00

, right . And so he's

15:02

like just meet us here at home . And I'm like , okay

15:04

, cause I'm like 15 minutes away , right , I'm thinking

15:06

he knows what he's talking about , he knows

15:09

it's fun . So as I'm heading to their

15:11

house , he calls me and he's like actually , the

15:13

baby's here , I called 911 , just

15:15

meet us at the hospital . I was like , all

15:17

right , so I did that . And

15:19

but it was so awesome because I could

15:21

tell that , even though I was really new

15:23

at being a doula , as she prepped

15:25

for this birth , she knew more

15:27

about what to expect because of

15:29

the conversations that we were having . And

15:32

when I saw her , she was

15:34

like holding her baby and being rolled out of the

15:36

ambulance and she was just smiling , she

15:39

was just beaming , like she was just so happy

15:41

because she was proud

15:44

of her birth , like she wasn't scared cause we were

15:46

talking about her previous birth , when she was

15:48

scared cause she was alone . And

15:50

then we talked about it and then her husband was with her this time

15:52

and so , even though it didn't go as planned

15:54

, she was happy and that

15:57

felt good as being my first doula

15:59

client . So after experiencing that

16:01

I was like hooked . I was like who else

16:03

has had babies ? Let me get up in these doula

16:06

programs and all that stuff . So I ended up signing

16:08

on and being a contracted doula

16:10

here in Seattle , washington , and

16:13

it was super awesome . The program was great

16:15

and it made it easy as a parent

16:17

of young kids to get clients , because what you

16:19

would do is you would just put up your availability

16:21

and clients would look at your profile

16:23

and they would say , oh , she's available in my due date

16:25

free gin , you know . And

16:28

then we could talk , we can interview , say yes

16:30

or no , hook up , and that'd be fine

16:32

. And then the money went through the program rather than

16:34

directly to me , so I didn't have to worry about necessarily

16:37

having my own contract at the time and

16:40

so it was a whole thing , and so that was my immersion

16:43

into birth work , and

16:45

fast forward to

16:47

a couple of years later , I felt

16:49

like being a birth doula wasn't enough , because I originally

16:52

wanted to become a midwife . And so

16:54

I'm over here trying to figure out OK

16:56

, I just finished college

16:58

, what can I do to

17:01

get deeper into birth work , because

17:03

one day I want to be a midwife ? But what midwifery

17:06

program can I actually realistically

17:08

partake in ? Because midwifery

17:10

programs are intense and

17:13

I was still

17:15

a young mom and I had

17:17

I think it was a three-year-old and

17:19

I was still balancing everything that

17:21

was on my plate . And I very

17:23

quickly found out , after having my daughter

17:25

, that everything that I wanted

17:28

to do as an individual outside of being a mother

17:30

was put on the back

17:32

burner , slash sidelines , and

17:34

every single thing I wanted to do needed to be

17:37

completed or accomplished around

17:39

everybody else's schedule rather

17:41

than my schedule being the primary schedule . So

17:43

even when I was still in college and trying to finish up

17:45

college , the classes I chose to take

17:47

had to be based off of when I could have child

17:50

care , and so I was

17:52

happy that I figured out something , because all the

17:54

classes I took were super random , but it led

17:56

to a degree , and so I was happy about that . So

17:58

me trying to find a midwifery program that would

18:00

work . Of course I looked into Bastier University

18:03

and they have a master's program , but

18:05

I had a ready . I think I was in my

18:07

last quarter of school when I looked into their prereqs

18:09

and I would have had to be in school

18:11

for another solid three years just

18:14

to get the prereqs and I was like I

18:16

can't do that , that's too much , it's not realistic

18:18

. And so I was looking into other programs , talking

18:20

to other community midwives , and they pointed me in

18:22

the direction of an online school program

18:25

called the Midwives College of Utah . So

18:27

it's an online program and then you end

18:29

up doing your testing and stuff in person

18:32

in Utah , but everything like your practicums

18:34

and your clinicals are in your

18:36

local region most of the time . Sometimes

18:38

people have to move to go to a place that has more

18:40

options , but I was lucky

18:43

and fortunate enough to be in the Pacific Northwest

18:45

, where it's like flourishing over

18:47

here . There's a ton of birth centers

18:49

and a ton of birth workers over here , and

18:51

so , as I was looking for

18:53

this program that I was trying

18:55

to get into , I was working

18:57

at Bastia University , which is why

18:59

I looked at their program . I was working at Bastia

19:01

University in the Simkin Center , which

19:04

is where I took my doula training , because I was

19:06

like I want to be in birth work but I don't know

19:08

how . So I'm like where can I go when I can still

19:10

contribute financially An admin job at

19:12

a place that deals with birth in

19:14

some way ? So I did that , took all the trainings

19:16

I could while working , because it was a discounted

19:18

price or I got it for free if I was the helper

19:21

of the course that weekend and then

19:23

so , once I

19:25

was doing more things with work and in birth work

19:27

, I ended up looking for a birth

19:29

assistant . Training , which was the middle

19:32

ground between a birth doula and

19:34

a midwife , was birth assistant , because you do some

19:36

clinical things but you don't do it all . You

19:38

do the fetal heart tones or infant

19:40

heart tones , depending on the training you do . You

19:42

can actually administer vitamin K or pitocin

19:45

and you get hands on , you could

19:47

touch the baby and stuff . That was

19:49

fun and so I did that training

19:51

and then I think it was a couple of weeks

19:53

before I actually went physically to

19:55

the training I actually found out that I was pregnant

19:57

with my son , and so my daughter is three

19:59

at the time . I find out that I'm pregnant and

20:01

I'm like oh snap , I feel like this is a

20:04

now or never thing . So right

20:06

after I took this birth assistant training

20:09

, I started talking to local birth

20:11

centers about how I can get to

20:13

births and what

20:15

I need to do in order to accomplish

20:18

getting certified as a birth

20:20

assistant before my baby's born , because

20:22

I want to get to birth and

20:24

I also . After the training that I took

20:26

, they told me well , you have to get 10 births

20:29

, but the kicker is , all

20:32

10 of these births that you attend have to be

20:34

free of charge because you're not certified

20:36

. And so I'm over here like what the heck

20:39

? What do you mean ? I got a free like

20:41

how long are these births as a birth doula ? Like

20:43

I know , births are super long , you

20:45

know . And so for me to be like

20:47

OK , I got to do 10 births for free

20:49

. The only thing that made it really

20:51

different was that birth assistants tended

20:54

to get called near the end when

20:56

they thought that birth was going to happen within

20:58

the next couple of hours . So I'm

21:00

there assisting the midwife . Sometimes

21:03

that would come in and the birth would be precipitous , so

21:05

I'd be called at the same time as the midwife , or

21:07

I'd be called in after the midwife was with this

21:09

client for 24 , 27 hours . It

21:11

really just depends . But it was awesome

21:13

. I got all 10 births accomplished . The last

21:16

birth I went to , I was super

21:18

pregnant , to the point to where , when

21:20

I was going to these births and these people

21:22

would be pushing out their babies , I would be having

21:24

sympathetic contractions and

21:26

having let down and all of this

21:29

stuff , because I was super pregnant

21:31

, about to have a baby myself . I think the last

21:33

birth I went to I was 38 weeks , which

21:35

was fun and challenging , but it was

21:37

fun to have conversations , because after people

21:39

had their babies , they're like oh my god , I didn't realize

21:41

that you were pregnant . And then they would be like how far

21:43

longer are you ? Because they're in their zone . By the

21:45

time they meet me , they don't even know who's in the room

21:47

. And then afterwards I'm like can I take your baby's

21:49

heart tones ? And they're like , oh yeah , sure . Oh my god

21:52

, you're half a belly . And just the conversations

21:54

went from there . So when I was pregnant , though

21:56

, I also applied for midwifery school , and

21:59

then I got in because I was like it's

22:01

now or never I'm going to get into this birth thing

22:03

or not . So I eventually

22:05

had my son and I decided to

22:07

have a home birth with him , because by

22:10

the time I was pregnant with my son

22:12

, I had learned so much more about birth whether

22:14

that be birth centers , home births

22:16

, all this stuff so I was looking into becoming

22:20

a out of hospital midwife . So I was like , well , let me just

22:22

have a home birth . I love birth , let me do that

22:24

. I'm healthy , I'm active

22:26

, I'm young still , I was 24

22:28

. And so I was like , ok , let's do

22:31

this . And the care that I received that pregnancy

22:33

was so different than the care that I received with my first

22:35

, because my in-hospital experiences

22:38

with my providers they're shorter appointments and

22:40

then my out of hospital experience with my provider

22:42

. This time around , the midwife would come to my house

22:44

. We would just have conversations and appointments

22:47

would be like an hour , sometimes two

22:49

hours long because we would be talking so much . And

22:51

that was amazing . And I had the intention

22:54

, a very strong intention this time

22:56

to know everybody that was coming into my birth

22:58

space . And , in addition to that

23:00

, I wanted every person that was in

23:02

my birth space to be someone that looked like me . So

23:05

I made sure that I found a

23:07

midwife of color . I also made sure that

23:09

that midwife had a student of color . If

23:12

they had a student , I would only really want them in

24:58

the space if they were of color , because I

25:00

want to be able to look around the room when I'm

25:02

in labor and feel

25:04

a connection and I'm not saying that I can't

25:06

feel a connection to people that aren't of color , it's

25:09

just like in my vulnerability I want

25:11

to be able to just feel that

25:13

and I really wanted this kind of ancestral

25:16

or spiritual vibe in my space

25:18

the second time around .

25:20

I was literally about to say that I was calling

25:22

on the presence of your ancestors .

25:24

Yes , exactly , I really wanted that

25:26

. I wanted to look around and see that and feel that

25:28

. And so everything went great

25:31

. I was in complete denial that I was

25:33

even in labor . I even got a call from

25:35

a midwife and they were like , hey , do

25:37

you want to come to this birth ? And I was like , let me just talk to my husband

25:39

, I'm a little uncomfortable today . And they're like , yeah , no problem . And

25:41

then I talked to my husband . He's like , babe , you said you're

25:43

uncomfortable , maybe you should just stay . You're

25:45

super pregnant , you're past your due date

25:47

right now . Because I was two days post-states

25:50

, he was like you're too pregnant

25:52

, just stay home . And I was like , fine

25:54

, I'll stay , because I was so used to go , go going

25:56

and just working and little did I know

25:58

I was actually in labor . Those discomforts were

26:00

early labor pains , and so

26:03

I'm in denial that I'm in labor and

26:05

things start going . And I'm

26:07

literally in denial so long

26:09

that people are starting to hear that I'm having

26:12

labor signs , like my husband's texting

26:14

people . I let my midwife know

26:16

like , hey , I'm just starting to feel stuff , just want to let you

26:18

know . She let her student know . I called

26:21

my doula . I did not have a

26:23

doula the first time around , but I made sure that I had one

26:25

the second time around and , yes , they were also of

26:27

color . So I let all my people know and

26:30

I would say I was probably

26:32

maybe two hours into my labor

26:34

when my dad called me . Two or three hours

26:36

into my labor when my dad called me , when I was

26:38

starting to get the idea that yeah , ok , I'm

26:41

probably in labor , he called me and he was like all

26:43

right , yo , what's happening ? Are you about to have this baby

26:46

today ? I'm about to go to Linwood . It's

26:48

45 minutes north and you are south , like what's

26:50

happening ? And it's traffic time . You

26:52

know , it's like 4 PM or something like that . And

26:55

I was like dad , it's fine , even if I am in labor

26:57

, it's going to be a while , do what you need

26:59

to do , just be

27:02

on call to come back whenever we call you . And

27:04

he's like , ok , cool . And so literally

27:06

10 minutes after I get off the phone with

27:08

my father , my water breaks

27:10

and shit

27:12

hits the fan . My labor completely changes

27:15

. My husband is terrified because

27:17

we're at home and he is just alone

27:20

sitting with our three-year-old at the time

27:22

staring at me like are you OK as

27:25

I'm in the bathtub , and I'm like huh

27:27

, you know , just like feeling

27:29

all the things , and he's like

27:32

, oh my god , because again , he's terrified

27:34

of blood . There's no blood at this point . But

27:36

also , being a birth worker , when my water

27:38

broke , I was like crap

27:40

, it's pea green , there's

27:42

some aconium in here , and I was like

27:44

I really don't want to go to the hospital . I

27:47

don't want to get this far to have to go to the

27:49

hospital . And so I text a photo

27:51

of my panty liner to my midwife and she's

27:53

like it seems like it's safe enough , let

27:56

me get there , we'll figure it out and

27:58

go from there . So my

28:00

labor picks up super quickly . I'm

28:02

in a complete primal mode and

28:04

I am just doing the labor dance , doing

28:06

all the things Love that my doula showed

28:09

up super quick because she was already nearby . My

28:12

midwife made it barely

28:14

Well , when I say barely , I mean like she

28:16

made it and I had the baby , my son

28:19

, less than an hour later . So

28:21

it was like very things were moving

28:23

. One thing that I also remember

28:25

is me telling my doula because I went

28:27

inside my bathroom tub where I

28:29

could control the heat of the water and I was like wait

28:32

until the noise changes in the faucet

28:34

. That's when it's hot water . I don't know what

28:36

it is Like when you change the position

28:38

of it . I don't know if this is only my house , I

28:40

don't know the sound of the water changes

28:42

, maybe it's more irrigated or something , I have no idea

28:45

. And then it gets hot and I was like , yeah

28:47

, I just remember saying that to her . And then it

28:50

was super awesome because my three-year-old was super

28:52

involved . She was giving

28:54

me water , trying to hold my hand

28:56

. At one point I was asking for a hand

28:58

to squeeze and she puts her tiny little

29:01

hand in mine and I'm like baby , I'm so

29:03

sorry , I don't want to break your hand , I need

29:05

a grown-up's hand . And she's like OK , mommy

29:07

. And so she just sits

29:09

there and rubs my shoulder and my hair

29:12

that I have so little of , because I decided

29:14

to shave my head bald during my pregnancy

29:16

, because apparently I was

29:18

going through some emotions . And

29:22

then I remember my mom coming

29:24

and she was so upset because she had

29:26

stayed at our house for a week before

29:28

this day , because she's like I

29:31

am going to be here for this baby , because

29:33

she missed the first birth of my daughter

29:35

. She's like I'm going to be here . And

29:38

so she basically lived with us for two

29:40

weeks and she's

29:42

like I have to go to work today . If

29:44

you have this baby , I'm going to be so

29:46

mad at you . And , of course , the day she leaves

29:48

and goes to work , I

29:50

am in labor and she ends

29:53

up finding a way to come back to the house

29:55

and I remember her getting there because she

29:57

touched me and I

30:00

felt this immediate connection spiritually

30:03

. But one of the things that I felt right

30:05

away was how cold her hands were , and

30:07

I loved it . I needed

30:09

it . I needed it

30:11

so bad . And so she was touching me and her

30:14

hands were cold and I was like , oh my god , yes , please

30:16

, you know , but fast

30:18

forward a little bit . Birth was great . Things

30:20

were moving along . I ended up birthing

30:22

my son in the bathtub and

30:25

it was glorious and

30:27

I was so proud of myself . It

30:29

was intense , but it was not euphoric , but

30:31

it was an intense pain that I knew

30:33

was temporary , that was being productive

30:35

. I did not feel like I was suffering . I was

30:37

coping well through it all and it felt great . Postpartum

30:40

comes , everything is fine , and

30:42

my doula brain is like you should eat

30:44

something , and so I asked

30:46

someone to get me a banana . I started

30:49

eating this banana and

30:51

right before I ate the banana , I birthed my placenta

30:54

and there was a shit ton of blood pulled

30:56

behind my placenta . And that's when I was like

30:58

, oh , I should probably eat something because my body needs

31:00

something . And then I go to eat this banana and then

31:02

I pass out , because I

31:04

like to think that everything that was keeping me stable

31:07

changed direction and went to go digest

31:09

this banana that I just ate and

31:11

I passed out . And

31:13

so it took two what

31:15

are those called the little ? I don't know

31:17

if you guys actually have them . In the hospital , you might . In

31:20

out of hospital settings there are these little

31:22

like kind of pill shaped

31:24

plastic paper

31:26

. You wrapped things and

31:28

they're full of ammonia

31:31

. Oh , yeah , yeah

31:33

, yeah , the ammonia . It took two

31:36

of those to wake me up and

31:38

one of them .

31:39

Usually people are like oh you

31:41

know like in there , alive the stink

31:43

, yeah , the stink's so bad .

31:44

It's like those like gym

31:46

salts that people are sniffing nowadays . It

31:49

like usually with one pot , like people come

31:51

back to life , they become conscious

31:53

again . It took two pops of

31:55

those which was concerning , and then

31:57

it wasn't long before

31:59

I passed out again and

32:02

then you know , I'm still bleeding

32:04

, but it's not like I , I am not conscious . So

32:07

, like the point from that I'm saying from here on is kind of

32:09

like perspectives of what I've heard . You

32:11

know , because I'm I'm so out of it . Some

32:13

of the parts that I do remember is seeing

32:16

blood and then seeing my bathwater

32:18

be drained out because it was looking like too much blood and

32:21

so they were trying to get an estimate of how much blood it

32:23

was . So they drained it and so if it continued

32:25

to fill up , they would be able to have

32:27

a good estimate . That was my thought process

32:30

. Well , thinking of it afterwards

32:32

. But one thing that I would probably change

32:34

about this whole birth situation is

32:36

getting a hep lock . Because I opted out

32:38

of a hep lock because I had an IV

32:40

my first labor and I didn't

32:42

really need it because everything was so quick

32:45

and smooth and I felt like it was

32:47

unnecessary . So this time around I was like

32:49

I don't want anything of interventions about to be butt

32:51

ass naked in my house , like I don't care , I just want

32:53

to be . I want to do what my body does . It's

32:56

going to be fine . If I had opted into

32:59

a hep lock , the next step would not have

33:01

needed to happen . So because

33:03

I opted out of having an IV

33:05

hep lock , I ended up passing

33:08

out again . Er , 911 was called

33:10

, everything was called . All of these ambulance

33:12

and fire people , firemen

33:15

and women were coming to my house

33:17

to help save me , right , and , of course , everybody's

33:19

freaking out and I

33:21

passed out twice before they came . They

33:24

came . Thank God it was a woman that

33:26

came in first , because I was completely naked and

33:28

I felt good to just see a woman . I remember

33:30

her blonde hair , fair

33:32

skin , super strong looking . I

33:35

was like you're dope . She like helps lift me

33:37

out of the tub because I need to get out of the tub and

33:39

she helps cover me up and then , as soon as

33:41

I lean over her to get into the chair

33:43

, I pass out again and so

33:45

I'm just fainting because I'm

33:47

losing so much blood . To shorten this part

33:49

of the story up , I ended up going into

33:52

the ambulance and getting transferred to the

33:54

hospital and when I'm in

33:56

the ER , I'm only there for

33:58

three hours , but I did not need any

34:00

blood transfusion or anything like that , I

34:02

just needed fluid . So

34:05

, looking back , if I opted for a

34:07

hep lock and got fluid throughout my labor , I

34:09

likely would not have ended up needing to transfer

34:11

and my

34:13

provider , my midwife , could

34:15

have gotten pittosin into me faster than

34:18

through intramuscular

34:20

, you know , like through an IM stick . So

34:23

she did it a couple of times , from what I remember

34:25

, but I think I lost about 800

34:27

cc's of blood at home . So I

34:29

was really upset at myself because

34:32

I wanted it to be perfect . I wanted to prove

34:34

everybody wrong that said home birth is dangerous and

34:37

home birth isn't cool or

34:39

not that it isn't cool . But , like you know , I was just like trying

34:41

to prove myself yet again , because the first

34:44

time I did have an unmitigated birth and I rubbed

34:46

it in everybody's faces because I was like you

34:48

thought that I couldn't . And then this time

34:50

I was like I'm going to have a home birth and I wanted to rub it

34:52

in everybody's faces but I

34:54

couldn't . I couldn't do it , it's

34:56

so unsatisfying . Yeah , I mean , I

34:59

felt so down and

35:01

I was like , why me ? Like ? Why did this happen to me

35:03

? My midwife and I were

35:05

super , super connected and conversing

35:08

a lot throughout my care about how I was anemic

35:10

during my pregnancy the first time and

35:12

some in my second , but by the time I

35:14

had my blood draw last time , like my numbers were

35:16

going up . But with

35:19

that being said , it had been a couple of

35:21

weeks since my numbers were drawn , like from

35:23

when I went into labor . So numbers change

35:25

pretty quickly . I feel like they go down

35:27

faster than they go up . So I

35:29

was anemic and the

35:31

level that I was at with anemia was like on the

35:34

bridge line when my numbers

35:36

were drawn for safety of home birth . So I'm assuming

35:38

that my numbers went down and I was no longer safe

35:40

to have a home birth and I hemorrhaged

35:43

and that led to the result of

35:45

my postpartum , or my immediate postpartum

35:47

. Breastfeeding with him was totally

35:49

fine , super good . He handled

35:51

my big nipples , no problem , right

35:53

. He did have a tongue tie

35:56

without me realizing that he had a tongue tie and

35:58

I didn't notice until I actually had my third , but that

36:00

was a whole other thing . Yeah , I did experience

36:02

some postpartum depression with him and

36:05

I didn't experience it with my first . And

36:08

I also kind of put it to the seasons

36:11

a little bit , because my daughter

36:13

was born in the summertime , so

36:16

it was sunny , and then my son

36:18

was born in November and so it was very dark . We

36:21

did not have very long days . I

36:23

remember being snippy with my husband

36:25

because he doesn't like when people can see in our house

36:28

when it's dark outside , if our windows are open , obviously

36:30

. But I snapped at him and I was like

36:32

no , the sky is purple , it's not black

36:34

, leave it open . I need as much sun as I can

36:36

get Right . Not that whatever

36:39

sun was coming in at that time was helping

36:41

me by any means , but my nights were blending

36:43

with my days because the daylight

36:45

span of the actual

36:47

24 hour period was so low that

36:50

I wanted my brain to click that it

36:53

has been another day . I didn't

36:55

even realize that it was postpartum depression

36:57

because I wasn't like officially diagnosed or anything

37:00

. But I didn't realize it until

37:02

I was one year postpartum and

37:04

I was like that's why I was feeling that way . But

37:06

I was super communicative with the people around me at

37:08

that time . I wasn't like I'm depressed

37:11

but I was like , yeah , I'm just not . I'm not feeling it Like

37:13

, I love my son , I love my kids

37:15

. But it seems a little bit harder this time and

37:18

I just checked it up to having two

37:20

instead of one .

37:21

Until I feel that , because post-perniate eluded and

37:23

anxiety disorders just feel different

37:25

, it's not like I'm sad because you

37:27

have this wonderful thing in your life that you love so

37:29

much , but you don't feel right either

37:31

. I had a lot of intrusive thoughts

37:34

and I had no idea that that was a

37:36

thing . That was just normal .

37:39

I had intrusive thoughts too and

37:41

I was like seeing shit . I was like up in the

37:43

middle of the night by myself with a crying baby and

37:45

it could also be the fact that I was exhausted but I

37:47

was like did

37:50

a person just walk past my window ? And

37:52

I'm like , no , that's impossible . I'm on the second floor of

37:54

my house . What's happening ? And

37:57

so I was not 100%

38:00

myself and who really is postpartum ? Because

38:02

there's so much that you're sacrificing

38:05

as a parent but also just trying to get used to

38:07

and gather and hold on to . It's such

38:09

a transition , it's

38:11

such a transitional period in your life and

38:13

I use the word transition a lot when

38:15

I talk about anything in my life , because

38:18

I feel like I am in this constant transition

38:20

. I'm never reaching the end and I'm always

38:22

like , oh , this is really hard right now because I'm in

38:24

transition . It could be because of a birth

38:26

worker and that's like my word of choice

38:28

. So six months postpartum , I

38:31

actually started midwifery

38:33

school . I started my midwifery program

38:36

and everything was handy dandy

38:38

. I felt like everything was going great and

38:40

I was still birth assisting . I started going back to

38:43

births around the time that my son was

38:45

about six months old and I

38:47

kind of just picked up a new groove and started doing

38:50

things again and he

38:52

was born in 2017 . So fast

38:55

forward a little bit to 2019

38:57

, 2020 . Between

38:59

those two years , I was like heavy in the birth space . I was

39:02

taking doula clients . I was also

39:04

student midwife because I needed some kind of income

39:06

, but as a student I wasn't making

39:08

money , because you're a student , you're learning

39:10

, and so I would be like cool

39:12

, my thing is being in the birth space , so like

39:14

I'm either going to be losing sleep because I'm at a birth

39:17

with a doula client , or I'm going to be losing sleep because

39:19

I'm at a birth as a birth assistant , or I'm

39:21

going to be losing sleep because I'm at a birth as a student midwife

39:23

. So I just needed it all to kind of line

39:25

up as much as possible . It

39:27

was hard to balance , but

39:30

I was fortunate enough to have someone that

39:32

I could partner with as a birth doula

39:34

while doing these things , and so

39:36

we would split call in my doula

39:38

section of my life . Instead of being

39:40

on call for doula clients

39:42

all the time , it was more of

39:45

, I got to split that with someone else and so

39:47

I was able to still pick up clinical births

39:49

and birth assistant births . So

39:51

that was my way of having an income while being a student

39:54

. Retrospectively , and

39:56

while I was in it , I realized that it was very rough

39:58

. But retrospectively

40:00

I realized how much I actually missed

40:02

in my life at that point and

40:05

it was incredibly hard . And then

40:08

so when 2020 happened

40:10

COVID happened at the end

40:12

of 2020 , I was still

40:14

in school . I was about two and a half years into my

40:17

four year program , so I was a little bit

40:19

more than halfway through . I was barely

40:21

starting to do the primary student

40:23

things . So I was starting to sit with

40:25

clients and do their entire prenatal visit

40:27

. I was doing all the blood draws

40:29

. I was doing vaginal

40:31

exams , cervical exams . I was doing

40:33

all the things . I even caught two

40:35

babies , which was super fun

40:38

and awesome . But then the

40:40

Black Lives Matter movement happened and

40:43

it was insane . That

40:45

whole time in my life was kind

40:47

of a little bit of a blur because I

40:49

was struggling mentally with

40:52

how fucked up the world was

40:54

. I was struggling so hard

40:56

. And then I was studying some really intense

40:58

classes that were based

41:01

on how to deal with trauma or how

41:03

to guide your clients through trauma , as well

41:05

as just taking a really heavy academic course

41:07

, because it's like one of the foundational

41:09

courses of midwifery it's called prenatal two

41:12

or something . You know just how to do your visits and how

41:14

to be a midwife , basically , and

41:16

so I was completely overwhelmed . And

41:18

around the same time , public schools

41:20

changed to online and

41:23

I just couldn't do it all . I had no

41:25

one to watch my kiddos

41:27

when I was in clinic or at birth , and

41:29

so sometimes I would take my kids with me

41:31

to clinic and they would sit in the back room all day , and

41:34

it was a lot to balance and I just couldn't

41:36

do it . So I had to make the extremely

41:39

, extremely , extremely hard

41:41

decision to withdraw from

41:43

midwifery school . I did not want

41:45

to , because I felt so close to being at the end

41:47

, and I have since spoken

41:49

to people that were in my class that are like full

41:52

on midwives and I'm like , damn , that could have been me . You

41:54

know , that could have been me , but it was hard . So

41:57

I withdrew and decided

41:59

, hey , since I'm not in birth rooms

42:01

as much anymore I was still a doula and

42:04

a birth assistant , but not as much let's

42:06

try to have a baby . Right , let's

42:08

try to have a baby . So I took my birth control out

42:10

. I ended up finding a job as an admin

42:13

and found out

42:15

I was pregnant , and I actually switched

42:17

jobs twice while pregnant , which

42:19

was interesting because I ended up

42:21

resigning from a birth organization

42:24

that I no longer aligned with . They

42:26

were very they were very

42:29

narcissistic and

42:31

racist , even though it was ran by

42:33

a person of color which I really hated

42:35

. It was really hard . And then I ended up

42:37

going into the

42:40

next birthy thing that I could find , which was just supporting

42:42

a lactation clinic as an admin , and

42:45

so I did that and then realized

42:47

that was way too far for me . So because it

42:49

was in Lake City and I live in Auburn

42:51

, so I was driving like an hour and a half every day too

42:54

far , too much , couldn't do it while pregnant

42:56

. I ended up . I also

42:59

didn't feel super valued there . I felt like

43:01

I wasn't really needed . So

43:03

I went and got an admin

43:05

job at a birth center that was really close to

43:07

my house and I was like dope , this

43:09

is great , let's do this . And pregnant , that's cool . I

43:11

love these midwives Like . This is the birth

43:14

center that I was at . That was kind of like

43:16

a really , really big foundation for

43:18

my birth work . Like a lot of my birth assistant

43:20

births were there . A lot of my birth doula births were

43:22

there . If it wasn't at a hospital , it was either

43:24

at this birth center or associated

43:26

I would say , 98% of the time associated

43:29

with this birth center for home births . So

43:31

they were like my peeps right . So I was like cool

43:33

, I can do this as much as

43:35

this third time around . I really badly want

43:37

to have a home birth . My husband was not

43:40

about it . I wanted to have

43:42

this redemption home birth this time around

43:44

and say , oh my gosh , I did it , I actually did it . I'll

43:47

just have an IV lock this time . My

43:49

husband was like , babe , I don't know , I

43:52

don't feel comfortable with that , you're

43:54

the birthing person , but just know I'm

43:56

not an agreeance . And I was like I

43:58

don't want that energy going into my birth . So

44:01

we ended up choosing a birth center birth

44:03

and it just happened to be the birth center that I worked at , which was

44:05

handy dandy . It was amazing

44:07

. Actually it was still during COVID

44:09

time . So I wanted things to

44:11

line up just so because if I

44:14

ended up going into labor at night , I

44:16

would be able to have my party birthday I wanted . But

44:19

if I ended up going

44:22

into labor during the day when the clinic was full

44:24

or it was clinic days , I was only allowed to have

44:26

two people present with me and

44:28

I was like I can't do that , that's too hard . So

44:30

, anyways , ended up going into labor at night

44:32

. I had my midwife , who

44:35

used to be my doula partner , but

44:37

she is a full-on midwife now . She's been a midwife

44:39

for three years and she

44:41

was a midwife within her first year of midwifery and I

44:43

was like you gotta be my midwife . I can't imagine

44:45

anybody else . You're like a sister to me . Like

44:47

this is awesome . She was great . I

44:49

had her strip my membranes for

44:52

two days in a row . The first time she stripped it

44:54

I was like cool , things are moving . I'm feeling some stuff

44:56

. Let me just say I was also over being pregnant

44:59

so early in this pregnancy

45:01

. This pregnancy was way more intense . I was

45:03

way more uncomfortable Granted , I'm gonna pull

45:05

that like everybody else had it worse

45:07

than me . Card , because there were so many

45:09

other pregnancies . Especially as a birth worker , I can

45:11

see how a lot of other people that

45:13

were pregnant were worse off or feeling worse

45:15

than me . I wasn't dealing with some of the things they were dealing

45:18

with but , to validate my own feelings

45:20

, it was really intense for me . It

45:22

was a very how old were you by then ? I

45:24

was how old was . I 28

45:27

? Okay , yeah .

45:29

I just feel like the older you get , the harder it gets .

45:30

Yeah , and I felt that you were old , old but you

45:33

were 18 with your first . Yeah , and I

45:35

felt that . I definitely felt it in my body

45:37

too . Like even with my second pregnancy I was like

45:39

, oh , like I have Brax and Higgs . This is

45:41

like really early on I started having Brax and

45:44

Higgs , also a birth worker at that time

45:46

.

45:46

The physicality of that job

45:48

makes it so much harder to be pregnant . Plus

45:51

, it's your third . You've got two other

45:53

little ones running around Like you're gonna feel like crap

45:55

.

45:55

And I definitely did Felt like a big old

45:57

bowl of crap . And that was the first

45:59

pregnancy I experienced lightning crotch . Everybody

46:01

needs to know that lightning crotch is an actual thing

46:04

. Have you heard of lightning crotch before ? Yes , okay

46:06

, yeah , lightning crotch is absolutely

46:08

insane . I hated it so much and

46:11

I started experiencing it about like 25

46:13

weeks into my pregnancy and I was

46:15

like my baby's not even that heavy , but

46:17

she was tucked in

46:19

and like deep into my pelvis

46:22

very early on , and so I'm blaming it on that . It

46:24

got to the point where I was 37 weeks and I was like

46:26

so over it , to where I asked one of the midwives

46:28

that I worked with . I was like I know that I'm not your

46:30

client , but can you please , please

46:32

, just check my cervix and tell me if anything is happening

46:35

? And she was like , yeah , cool , I'll

46:37

check you , that's fine . She's like I don't wanna

46:39

stimulate things in there , but I'll check you to give

46:41

you a little peace of mind . I was

46:43

like okay , and then she told me that like my

46:46

cervix was squishy , but I was completely closed and

46:48

nothing was happening . I was so devastated . I

46:50

was like I'm over this and then fast

46:52

forward because I was so

46:54

over wanting to be pregnant . I asked

46:57

my midwife to strip my membranes two days

46:59

before my due date . She stripped my membranes

47:01

and things were working and I was like , yeah

47:03

, this is great , I could feel some contractions . And

47:05

then I do things to like

47:07

mentally prepare for labor . And

47:10

then I lay down and I fall

47:12

asleep and I wake up the next day

47:14

and I'm like what

47:17

, why I

47:19

wanted to be in labor . So bad , this sucks

47:21

. Things were working and

47:23

when she checked me , I was already like chilling at four

47:26

centimeters for my first check and I was like , dope

47:28

, let's do this . And so I thought that

47:30

contractions are really working . And so the

47:32

next day I had her come and

47:34

strip my membranes again , which

47:37

was the day before my due date and

47:40

she strips my membranes and I

47:42

get from a 4 and 1 half to a 5 and 1 half

47:44

and I'm like dope , cool

47:46

, Of course . She comes out all the bloody show

47:48

on her hand like crazy , crazy . I

47:50

was like do your due diligence girl ? Like fuck

47:53

me up in there because I'm over this . I

47:57

was like so over it . And I know that she is

47:59

super good at membrane sweeps . I have seen the

48:01

work she has done . And so she was like OK

48:03

, and of course I was like

48:05

breathing hella hard , squeezing

48:08

her arm like crazy . She's like are you OK

48:10

? I was like just go , come on , just do it , Like go

48:12

. It was a very interesting

48:15

, very interesting feeling

48:17

. It was painful , absolutely

48:20

. But would I do it again ? Hell yes , because

48:22

I was so over being pregnant . So that kind of leads

48:24

to how that turned out . I ended

48:26

up going into labor , but I

48:28

was having a really hard time because I was scared

48:31

that I was going to be in denial again . And

48:34

then I was also scared that

48:36

if I wasn't in denial

48:38

, it would stall out and not actually

48:40

be happening , especially since the day before it

48:43

had stopped . So I'm in

48:45

denial , I'm sitting backwards on the toilet a ton

48:47

because I want things to progress , and I'm over here

48:49

thinking I'm vocalizing through these . They're

48:51

coming pretty often , but do I

48:53

want to pick up everybody

48:55

? At this point it's like 11 PM . Do

48:57

I want to wake everybody up , get them to

48:59

the birth center , for it to not be a thing . And

49:02

so my midwife

49:04

this is actually a really cool fact is

49:06

, my midwife was actually the student

49:08

midwife of color that was at my

49:10

son's birth and my

49:13

son was actually her first catch

49:15

as a student , so it was super awesome for her to

49:17

catch my second . Her name is Mercedes

49:19

Snyder . She's absolutely amazing and

49:22

she was in her car

49:24

outside my house trying to get a little

49:26

bit of work done as well as take a mini nap , Even

49:29

though I told her she could sleep on my couch and she's like no , it's

49:31

OK . And I was like OK . So she went

49:33

into her car , I was texting her and I was like I

49:35

think things are happening , but I'm nervous . She was like

49:37

do you want me to come chat with you ? I was like yes

49:39

, so we chatted and just with

49:41

her in there and her seeing me and she

49:43

sees me have these contractions and

49:46

she's like Kiki , I think you're in denial

49:48

right now . Things are happening and

49:50

I think we might want to think about going . How

49:52

does that sound to you ? I was

49:54

like OK , we can do that . I'm

49:56

fine with that . So we start moving

49:58

everything . Everybody gets up and

50:01

awake . I had this vision

50:03

of making sure that

50:05

my hair was braided because it was long at that time

50:07

. I did not want to be a bald-headed birther

50:10

like I was last time , and so I intentionally

50:12

grew my hair out and wanted to feel like

50:15

a goddess when I was giving birth , and

50:18

so I braided my hair in French braids

50:21

and I felt that that was like kind

50:23

of pulling in my Native American side a little

50:25

bit . And then the

50:27

bathing suit top that I wore was very

50:29

colorful and it made me think of my Hispanic

50:31

side , bringing culture in as

50:33

much as I possibly could . I hired the same

50:36

doula , so that doula was also present

50:38

. We get to

50:40

the birth center . I am in full blown

50:42

labor but between contractions I can still talk

50:44

and stuff , which is great . Getting to the space as

50:46

soon as I got into the space , the first thing we did was

50:49

put in a hep lock Because , with

50:51

her being the student of my previous births

50:53

, me having all of my fainting spells and stuff

50:55

with my hemorrhage postpartum was actually her

50:57

first experience with that

50:59

yeah . And

51:01

so she was like , yeah , we're not doing that again . I was

51:03

like , yeah , let's not do that again . So

51:06

I got a hep lock . I got some IV

51:08

fluid just to start off with being

51:10

hydrated and knowing that that was something that I wanted to do

51:12

. I was not anemic at this time in

51:14

my pregnancy , but we didn't want to play

51:17

any games . We didn't want to add any fuel to the fire

51:19

. Things are going great . I

51:21

ended up I wanted a water

51:23

birth this time , and so , as contractions

51:26

are happening , and boy did , I have a party birth . Everybody

51:29

was there . My dad was there , my

51:31

stepmom was there , my little sister was there

51:33

. Both of my kids were there . One of my best

51:35

friends was there . Both of my sisters

51:38

, my older sisters were there , my

51:40

little , brother was there ?

51:41

How big was this room ?

51:43

It was a decent-sized room , but let's just say

51:45

they spilled out into the lobby and , thank god , clinic

51:47

wasn't happening Because

51:49

my sister's partner was

51:51

also there . So everybody was there and

51:54

I felt fine . I was like , cool , my people are here

51:56

, it's go time , right and right

51:59

as things are really picking up , and

52:01

me and my midwife are like I think it's time for you

52:03

to get in the birth tub because things might be getting close

52:05

. I'm like I feel that way too , let's do it . So

52:08

I get in the birth tub and things

52:10

slow down and

52:13

I was like what the actual fuck

52:15

, man , why is this happening ? Because

52:17

I was literally it was feeling like things were

52:19

rolling and rolling and I was like , cool , this relief is great . And

52:22

I was like my contractions are gone . And

52:24

so it just happened that my best friend that was

52:26

there at the time was also 39

52:28

weeks pregnant and so she's

52:31

like let's go walk the halls and

52:33

so we go waddle our way up and down this

52:36

hall and

52:38

she was a birth doula , so she was

52:40

doing the things and squeezing my

52:42

hips and

52:44

everybody else is kind of just letting us have our space and we were chatting

52:47

and stuff . Things were not progressing

52:49

. My contractions were still really far apart and

52:51

with being a birth worker , I was definitely talking

52:53

to my midwife being like what are my options here

52:55

? I'm thinking A-ROM . That's what I'm

52:58

thinking right now . I'm thinking let's break

53:00

my bag of water . And she's like I'm

53:02

thinking the same . But let's check you

53:04

. I was like sounds perfect , because I was walking

53:06

for like an hour and things weren't changing

53:09

. So she checked me and I

53:11

was completely devastated to find out I was only

53:13

a six after six hours of labor . And

53:15

at this point let's keep in mind , I was five

53:17

and a half when things started picking up . And

53:21

so I was like you

53:23

have to be fucking kidding me For

53:25

me to be in six hours

53:27

of labor , feeling all

53:29

the things , and I felt

53:31

like my bag of water was going to break because I could feel

53:33

the pressure of it against my cervix . I knew that

53:36

it wasn't a baby's head , because it was giving too

53:38

much , like giving way too much . Sometimes

53:40

I was giving a little bit of a grunt to help it pop or

53:42

something , and it didn't . So

53:44

that's why I was like let's see if A-ROM's a thing . So

53:47

at that point we're both like yes

53:49

, let's do A-ROM , but

53:51

instead of being on the bed with A-ROM in

53:54

order to engage my daughter's head further

53:56

, to go down rather than back and become mal-positioned

53:59

. We did the A-ROM on the birth stool

54:01

with gentle guidance down . My

54:04

husband was asleep in the other room with my kids at this time

54:07

because it has been a while and

54:09

he had worked a full day the day before

54:11

, and so I was fine with

54:13

that , and I had my doula behind me and

54:15

as soon as she broke my water , I

54:18

went from a six to a nine and a half and

54:20

my next contraction

54:22

was treacherous

54:25

. It was completely insane

54:27

and everything picked up from there

54:29

, but right after my first

54:31

contraction I was literally like

54:33

somebody go get my husband Go

54:35

get my husband Because I knew that

54:37

things have turned . So at

54:39

that point I do get in the birth tub . Things

54:42

pick up sooner rather than later . I'm pushing

54:44

and it was the most

54:46

primal and intense

54:49

pushing I had ever done

54:51

. I was , I felt

54:53

like I was being so loud , screaming

54:56

and stuff , but I actually my

54:58

sisters and everybody else that was in the room was like

55:00

girl , you weren't screaming , you were growling

55:02

and it like freaked my sister

55:04

out because it was all intense

55:06

. And keep in mind , this sister in particular

55:09

was her first birth , because with the other two

55:11

births she was out of state so she couldn't

55:13

make it , and so this was her first birth

55:15

and I'm literally like you

55:17

know , like I don't

55:19

recreate it .

55:20

Yeah , I can't even create it .

55:21

I was just like growling and like , so

55:23

intense and I wanted her out so

55:25

bad because I was over being pregnant

55:28

. I wanted her out and my sister

55:30

almost passed out because of how intense

55:32

it was for her to watch and

55:35

I was in the moment . I was like , give me a

55:37

hand . I need a hand to grab . I was holding the hand

55:39

. I had a birth for a child around the time and I

55:41

don't know . She gave me her hand and I didn't

55:43

even realize it was hers and I was squeezing the hell out

55:46

of it and I felt bad for her . But she got some

55:48

good pictures from that angle that she was at , which is great . And

55:50

then I birthed my daughter and it was great

55:53

. I forgot to mention this . My oldest

55:55

, who was eight at the time , wanted

55:57

to catch my daughter , so she

56:00

was in the birth tub with me during all of this super

56:02

primal birthiness and in the pictures you

56:04

can see she's actually a little freaked out because

56:07

it's a lot going on . I

56:09

had asked her before things got too intense if she

56:11

wanted to still catch and she said yes . And

56:13

we had a lot of discussion prior as well , a lot

56:16

of education . That happened , and so my

56:18

midwife , mercedes , was

56:21

guiding her through the catching process and it was

56:23

just beautiful . And I birthed her and

56:25

I remember pushing out her head , thinking that

56:27

it was her body , and Mercedes was like

56:30

, oh , head out , her head's out . And

56:32

I was like , oh my God , that's her head . I

56:34

am so over this . And

56:36

so I had to keep pushing and I'm

56:38

pretty sure that in one point of me pushing

56:41

my body just gave out and Mercedes had to pull

56:43

just the tiniest bit probably . And

56:45

then I was like , oh God , I

56:47

was just so done , because I remember

56:50

what it feels like . That is the only birth that I remember

56:52

feeling like my baby actually coming

56:54

out of my body , and I was like

56:56

, oh God , so it worked

56:58

, it was beautiful . And then we got

57:00

out of the tub and went to the bed and I

57:02

birthed my placenta there and

57:04

everything was fine no

57:06

hemorrhaging , everything was

57:09

dandy . She for sure had a tongue tie which

57:11

we ended up getting revised about one week

57:13

postpartum and everything

57:16

after that was good . About

57:18

seven months after that birth , that

57:20

birth center that I was working at actually got

57:22

bought out by a different birth center , which was

57:24

the one that I happened to resign from , and

57:27

they let me go via

57:29

email . While I was in Mexico

57:32

for my sister's bachelorette party

57:34

which was really , really painful because

57:36

I felt that I had such a connection

57:38

to that birth center and it was such a big

57:40

part of my birth worker journey

57:43

and environment that I

57:45

felt really let down and hurt by

57:47

the way that they let me go . And at that point I was actually

57:49

office manager , so I had got a promotion . When

57:52

I was on maternity leave , I actually came back

57:54

. Instead of being an admin , I came back as office

57:56

manager , which was great , it felt great , it was awesome , but

57:59

the let go process was wack . Then I became

58:01

a stay at home parent and after

58:03

about a year of being a stay at home parent , I started

58:05

the Birth as we Know it podcast . And

58:07

so amazing , yeah , that's

58:10

where I'm at now . I'm actually almost

58:12

at a year of the podcast , and

58:14

the Birth as we Know it podcast is a podcast

58:16

that's dedicated to recognizing the many different

58:18

ways birth unfolds and it's

58:20

completely just about birth

58:23

stories and experiences . So I talk to

58:25

birth workers , I talk to birthing people

58:27

, I talk to partners , I talk to providers

58:29

and nurses and

58:32

, yeah , that's where I'm at . Yeah , I love that

58:34

I have some questions .

58:35

Yeah , sorry , I

58:37

mean you were on such a roll . I didn't

58:39

want to stop you at all . So was

58:42

there anything that you would say

58:44

was starkly different from your hospital

58:46

birth , like what you were allowed to do ? I

58:48

know a lot of people come into the hospital

58:50

birth space and different hospitals have

58:53

different policies . Like were you allowed to immediately

58:55

do skin to skin ? Were you allowed to

58:57

? I don't know if you wanted to have delayed

58:59

cord clamping or anything like that . Was

59:01

it similar to your other experiences , just in

59:03

the hospital , or was there a lot of difference

59:06

?

59:06

Yeah , I would say that at

59:08

the time when I had my hospital birth , I wasn't

59:10

educated enough on the things

59:12

to look for or ask for in

59:15

my hospital birth . I didn't

59:17

know what delayed cord clamping was . I didn't

59:19

know what a doula was Like . I was 19

59:21

and I was looking for midwifery

59:23

care without actually realizing that

59:25

my state insurance covered midwifery care

59:27

. I didn't find that out until three days

59:29

postpartum , which I was pissed about . So

59:31

when it comes to actually

59:34

preparing for things and getting what I

59:36

quote unquote wanted at my hospital

59:38

birth , I felt like the biggest thing I

59:40

wanted was to go unmedicated , and

59:42

I accomplished that . I got to try the birth

59:44

tub , like I wanted . I just didn't like it

59:46

and my nurse at the time was bad

59:49

ass . I really wish I knew her name . I wish

59:51

I remembered who she was , because she made

59:53

a huge difference in my labor process

59:55

. She was super awesome and

59:58

the laborist was kind of an ass , but

1:00:00

I got this minute . That's

1:00:03

what I would say about that , because my hospital birth

1:00:05

, yes , was very different than

1:00:07

my birth center and home birth , but

1:00:10

the way I prepared for all of those was so different because

1:00:12

each of my kids are also four years apart , so

1:00:14

I had a lot of time to educate myself

1:00:16

between the births to decide what I was

1:00:18

going to do by the time I was pregnant .

1:00:19

Yeah , Okay . So

1:00:22

I was being in the second birth and telling

1:00:24

you that she's going to hang out until

1:00:26

you deliver and then she said I'm

1:00:28

going to be pissed if you go into

1:00:30

labor after I go to work . I mean she

1:00:33

totally set herself up for that , Right

1:00:35

, Absolutely yeah . The

1:00:38

sitting , I mean no , but like when you're feeling

1:00:40

watched , that I mean like hormonally

1:00:43

, that doesn't work .

1:00:45

Yeah , yeah . And it was so interesting

1:00:47

because , you know , whenever anybody gets

1:00:49

to the end of their pregnancies , they're

1:00:52

like getting all of these texts

1:00:54

or calls , like is the baby here yet ? Is the baby here yet ? Is

1:00:56

the baby here yet ? Is the baby here yet . And I was already post

1:00:58

dates at that time . So

1:01:00

everybody was like yo , is he here yet ? Like what's

1:01:02

actually happening . And so

1:01:05

when my mom left , it was a weekend

1:01:07

, so my husband was home , my daughter

1:01:10

was home , we were just chilling , right . I

1:01:12

think that it was the fact that I no longer felt like I

1:01:14

had to host , that

1:01:16

my body like relaxed and

1:01:19

was just with my family

1:01:21

, feeling relaxed , yeah

1:01:24

, and I think that was just the oxytocin

1:01:26

that was like it's time .

1:01:29

Right , right , yeah , now you feel

1:01:31

safe . You

1:01:33

feel , I mean not that your mom didn't make you feel safe , but when you

1:01:35

feel like you can just chill . That's when

1:01:37

you go into labor . So parents , people

1:01:40

that want to make people go

1:01:42

into labor , hovering is not the

1:01:44

way to do it .

1:01:45

Absolutely not . So stop

1:01:47

that You're going to make it so much worse .

1:01:49

Yeah , if you

1:01:51

want to have that person go into

1:01:53

labor , tell them you're leaving and going to work

1:01:55

, because that's

1:01:57

when they will go into labor . Let them go take a nap

1:01:59

. It will happen . I

1:02:02

just want to point out that

1:02:04

at least for me

1:02:06

and it sounds like for you birthing where

1:02:08

you work is like so amazing

1:02:11

. Yeah , it was great . Yeah

1:02:13

, especially if you're on the unit that

1:02:16

you work on . So I worked . I work

1:02:18

both times . The first time was

1:02:20

I was a postpartum nurse . I didn't

1:02:22

know anybody really in the labor and delivery unit . If

1:02:25

you work in the hospital in labor and delivery

1:02:27

and postpartum , you know that there's kind of like a

1:02:30

turf war between those two units

1:02:32

. So the vibe wasn't necessarily that

1:02:34

great . It was fine . And then being able

1:02:36

to go to my people afterwards was great

1:02:38

. But birthing on the unit that you work

1:02:40

on is just . It almost

1:02:42

felt like a home birth to me because

1:02:44

it was like it's halfway , halfway my home . I spent

1:02:46

half my life there . So having

1:02:49

my people , that was my party birth . So I really

1:02:51

, really think people that are out there

1:02:53

thinking oh , I don't want a birth where I work . No

1:02:56

, think about that really hard . See

1:02:58

if you want your people there , because those are the people that are going to

1:03:00

step up for you if something

1:03:02

goes down .

1:03:04

Right , especially if you like

1:03:06

where you work . You like the people .

1:03:08

If you hate where you work , please don't birth there

1:03:11

, yeah yeah .

1:03:13

So that was super awesome . And

1:03:15

after that birth I had happened to

1:03:17

be finishing up my postpartum right as clinic

1:03:19

was about to start the next day , and so I got

1:03:21

to see the office manager at

1:03:23

that time and then I got to see my coworkers

1:03:25

and my admin and everything that was there and I

1:03:27

was like look at what I made , look at my baby

1:03:29

. You know , and it was just fun , it

1:03:32

was nice , it was like a mini welcome

1:03:34

party .

1:03:35

Yeah , it's so great to have like people stop

1:03:37

by when you're in your room

1:03:39

and like all of that fun stuff , and

1:03:42

then I go through the shifts and get to see everybody and show

1:03:45

off yeah , thanks again for every one of them . So

1:03:48

I try to

1:03:50

bring awareness to

1:03:52

what happens in this country when

1:03:54

people of color go into the birth space . I

1:03:58

think it's something that we all need to talk about and

1:04:00

we all need to really just do

1:04:02

better to acknowledge and

1:04:04

be very conscientious about , because

1:04:07

, even if you think that you don't have bias

1:04:09

, I feel like we all do and

1:04:12

we need to try extra hard

1:04:15

to make sure that people of color

1:04:17

are safe for so many different reasons

1:04:19

, but essentially the biggest reason being that

1:04:21

the mortality and

1:04:23

morbidity rate for people of

1:04:26

color in the birth space is so much

1:04:28

higher in this country . It's astounding

1:04:30

. So , as somebody that

1:04:32

has birthed in all the different birth

1:04:35

spaces , as a person of color

1:04:37

as well , I want to give you the floor , if

1:04:39

you are interested in taking it

1:04:41

, to speak to all providers out there

1:04:43

and let them hear

1:04:45

what you have to say about what wisdom you can impart

1:04:48

for everybody out there in the birth

1:04:50

space .

1:04:53

That is such a heavy topic

1:04:55

and I'm happy to speak on it . It's

1:04:58

definitely heavy in more

1:05:00

than just one way , and so

1:05:02

, as a person of color that has

1:05:04

birthed in three completely different settings

1:05:07

, I will say that I definitely

1:05:09

felt more seen in

1:05:11

my out of hospital births and

1:05:14

this could be because I wasn't like

1:05:16

a number of people

1:05:18

on the floor . You know as a

1:05:20

nurse and we had mentioned it earlier

1:05:23

that the providers that are supporting you

1:05:25

in the hospital you're not their primary focus . They

1:05:27

have multiple clients or patients

1:05:29

that they're seeing at the same time and so I

1:05:32

didn't feel like the primary focus in the hospital

1:05:34

. But I knew that I was there and

1:05:36

cared for and they knew that I was there . But

1:05:38

fortunately my labor in the hospital

1:05:40

went pretty quickly , so I wasn't there for like 24

1:05:43

hours in labor to be

1:05:45

needing their attention for that spend of time

1:05:47

. Like I birthed within the shift , so I

1:05:49

only had one nurse with

1:05:51

me and things like that . But

1:05:53

in my home birth and my birth center

1:05:56

birth I felt like

1:05:58

I was birthing with my family . One

1:06:00

because I could have my family present , my

1:06:02

family could physically be present with me , and

1:06:05

two because everybody that

1:06:07

was in my space . I got to choose

1:06:09

to be there and so I

1:06:12

had the opportunity to look

1:06:14

for a provider that looked like me . I had

1:06:16

the opportunity to hire a doula that

1:06:19

looks like me . I had the opportunity

1:06:21

to even hire and see

1:06:23

the birth assistant that supported the midwives

1:06:25

that I was with be a person of color

1:06:27

. So I felt like I had so much

1:06:29

more agency

1:06:32

in making the decisions and so much

1:06:34

more of my voice was heard in

1:06:36

my out of hospital births Also

1:06:39

, not just during the birth either , but throughout

1:06:41

my care , because I got to talk about

1:06:43

all of the heavy shit . I got

1:06:45

to talk about everything that was like really

1:06:48

impacting me , like some of my prenatals were

1:06:50

more like therapy sessions than

1:06:52

they were like a prenatal , like , yes

1:06:54

, my providers would touch my belly

1:06:56

, do some belly mapping to get hard tones

1:06:58

, get my vitals and all that stuff , but then

1:07:00

we would talk and we would connect

1:07:03

and we would really

1:07:06

get to talk about , one , how I was feeling

1:07:08

that day . Two , what

1:07:10

my fears and worries were at

1:07:13

that time . And three , how

1:07:15

we're going to work through those fears and worries before

1:07:18

labor happens . And if there's

1:07:20

this thing that happens during birth , that is really scary

1:07:22

, how are we going to communicate ? And

1:07:25

also , I was so happy that

1:07:27

when both situations in my out of hospital

1:07:29

births like my hemorrhage as well as

1:07:32

my labor stall , when I

1:07:34

looked up I can see someone

1:07:37

one that I knew and that

1:07:39

was a familiar face , and two

1:07:41

that I could trust because

1:07:43

I spent so much time with them that

1:07:45

I could literally trust my life in their hands

1:07:47

, and that is why I chose

1:07:50

to have out of hospital births . When

1:07:52

I did have a hospital birth , it was still

1:07:54

a good experience . I didn't have this huge

1:07:56

dramatic or traumatic experience

1:07:58

because my labor was fortunately quick . My labor

1:08:01

started on its own , like my situation made

1:08:03

it to where it was a smooth sailing

1:08:06

birth . I didn't have to get induced , I didn't need

1:08:08

ptosin , I didn't need interventions that could

1:08:10

lead to another intervention

1:08:12

and potentially lead to a traumatic birth . I'll

1:08:14

also say that interventions also lead to non-traumatic

1:08:17

births . I just want to put that out there . Correct . Yeah

1:08:19

, it made such

1:08:21

a difference to me to be surrounded and have

1:08:23

that community and also have

1:08:25

my support team be supportive of

1:08:28

the environment that I wanted to create , the

1:08:30

ancestral presence that I wanted to be there

1:08:32

, the cultural recognition

1:08:34

that I wanted to be present in my space was

1:08:37

accomplished in my out of hospital birth experiences

1:08:39

. I know that if I were to

1:08:41

ever have a child again which is not

1:08:44

going to happen my husband and I are done , but

1:08:46

if I was to ever get pregnant again

1:08:48

, I would have an out of hospital birth

1:08:50

again . I would choose to have another out of hospital

1:08:52

birth because of the positive experiences that

1:08:54

I've had , even though my home birth didn't end

1:08:56

as I wanted it . So , yeah , I guess

1:08:58

, to actually answer your question , I

1:09:01

would say to partners

1:09:03

, providers , birth workers that

1:09:05

are supporting people of color , to

1:09:08

give as much space as you

1:09:10

possibly can to

1:09:12

hear them and what they're saying

1:09:14

, to validate what they're experiencing

1:09:16

especially if it's something that you've never

1:09:18

experienced before and to provide

1:09:21

resources to them . And , if

1:09:23

you can have those resources , be

1:09:25

resources specifically

1:09:27

for or ran by people of color

1:09:30

, so they can have that connection and

1:09:32

then also be open-minded to

1:09:35

what they bring into the space that is

1:09:37

valuable to them , whether that be someone

1:09:40

wanting to bring a native drum and drum

1:09:43

to their baby's heart tones when they're in

1:09:45

labor , even if they're in the hospital . You

1:09:47

might be a little loud for some people , so you got to kind of think

1:09:49

about other people's spaces and

1:09:51

how to ethically make that happen , but just

1:09:54

giving your clients the

1:09:56

space to have a voice . But also

1:09:58

, when they do have that voice and express

1:10:00

themselves one , don't take it personally

1:10:02

, because it's not about you . Two

1:10:05

, validate it and do something

1:10:08

to help or

1:10:10

support them in their feelings

1:10:12

and listen to them Actually

1:10:14

listen . Don't just be like , oh , okay

1:10:16

, yeah . And also one of the biggest things

1:10:18

is don't let that one voice that

1:10:20

you hear of a person of color be

1:10:23

your description or experience

1:10:25

or definition of how every other person of

1:10:27

color will feel . Right now I'm voicing my

1:10:29

opinion . Another person of color that comes

1:10:31

on your podcast may not feel the same , and

1:10:34

I am just an individual that happens to be a

1:10:36

person of color . I am black , native American

1:10:39

and Mexican and I wear that proudly , and

1:10:42

there's going to be other people that don't feel the same

1:10:44

way that I do and don't agree with what I'm saying

1:10:46

. But I guess the primary takeaway would be make

1:10:48

space for them to have a voice and

1:10:51

listen when they talk .

1:10:52

Yeah , I love that . I think , like

1:10:55

I had spoken about earlier , about the trauma

1:10:57

that we as healthcare

1:10:59

professionals come in with , I

1:11:01

think that leads to some closed-minded energy

1:11:04

I don't want to say behavior , it's energy and

1:11:06

if you can just open yourself up , I

1:11:08

feel like that is so important

1:11:11

and I think that helps across the board

1:11:13

, but especially if it's me as

1:11:15

a very clearly white person

1:11:17

walking into someone else's space

1:11:19

. I have no idea where they're coming

1:11:21

from . I cannot possibly

1:11:24

understand where they're coming from , and

1:11:26

so to open myself up without making

1:11:28

it about me is probably

1:11:30

the only thing that I can do , but

1:11:33

I have to put myself aside to be able

1:11:35

to do that , so I think that's

1:11:37

a really important part of this , and I

1:11:39

also want to touch on what you said before

1:11:41

about biases .

1:11:43

I am a 100 million

1:11:45

percent believer that every

1:11:48

single person that is walking on this planet has

1:11:50

bias Every single person

1:11:52

and the reason why I'm saying that is because

1:11:54

a lot of people try to

1:11:56

convince themselves that they're not biased . And

1:11:59

everybody is , and your

1:12:01

job especially , as , like a healthcare provider

1:12:03

or a worker or someone that's providing a

1:12:06

service or someone that is like customer service-based

1:12:08

or whatever someone that works with people . You

1:12:11

have to find what your biases are , own

1:12:13

them when they're pointed out to you by people

1:12:15

and just not

1:12:18

necessarily change them , but recognize

1:12:20

what you have to work on

1:12:22

and not get defensive about it , but just know , like

1:12:25

everybody has something to work on . I

1:12:27

have a ton of stuff I got to work on . Kids will

1:12:29

tell you that , but

1:12:32

you know , so I just wanted to put that out there too .

1:12:34

Yeah , that's important , I think . The last question

1:12:36

, because you've touched on almost pretty much everything

1:12:39

that I usually ask is and I

1:12:41

think you've touched on this , but I really like to ask everybody

1:12:43

, because sometimes it's different If

1:12:45

you could go back and talk to yourself like

1:12:47

before you got pregnant that first

1:12:50

time what would you want to say ?

1:12:51

I would say trust your guts

1:12:53

and your intuition , because

1:12:56

even though I was young

1:12:58

, I still knew what I wanted

1:13:00

and I still knew what I was capable of

1:13:03

, regardless of everybody around me telling me

1:13:05

otherwise , and do

1:13:07

your research . And that might

1:13:09

be hard , because that's such a blanket statement

1:13:11

. Do your research , you know , but to

1:13:14

if , for example , I really wanted

1:13:17

midwifery and I just

1:13:19

didn't know what it was called at the time

1:13:21

, I didn't know what to look for

1:13:23

. And by the time I was postpartum

1:13:25

, I did know , but I didn't accomplish

1:13:27

it . And so , even if I did my research

1:13:29

back then , I may not have landed in a midwife's

1:13:31

care , but going through

1:13:33

the experience of not being in midwifery

1:13:36

care and then knowing that that's what I wanted , if

1:13:39

I were to go back knowing what I knew before

1:13:41

I went back if that makes any sense yeah

1:13:44

, I would have chosen midwife , but

1:13:46

I think that's it . And then , if

1:13:48

I could do it per pregnancy

1:13:50

, can I do it per pregnancy ?

1:13:53

Oh yes , go for it .

1:13:54

So with my first I would go back

1:13:56

and do research and look for midwifery care . For

1:13:58

my second I would say be

1:14:00

proud about who's in your space

1:14:02

and get a damn

1:14:05

head block .

1:14:07

I wish I could just tell that to everybody , because that saves

1:14:10

so many problems .

1:14:11

It really does , because you have that access to

1:14:14

that intravenous access and emergencies and

1:14:16

, like me , being stubborn , even being in

1:14:18

birthwork , I just wanted to make that decision

1:14:20

. But postpartum

1:14:23

, like retrospectively , I own that . I

1:14:25

own that . I made that decision and

1:14:27

I don't blame anybody else . If I had died

1:14:29

it would have been because

1:14:32

it could have been . Most likely

1:14:34

would have been because I didn't

1:14:36

have a head block and

1:14:38

I didn't mention this before . But my mother-in-law is

1:14:40

from Nepal and she grew

1:14:43

up living in the villages in the mountains in Nepal

1:14:45

and she said if

1:14:48

I was in the village I would have died and

1:14:51

that , like even to

1:14:53

this day , the access that they have to

1:14:55

healthcare in the Nepali villages right now is

1:14:57

limited . It's better than when

1:15:00

she was growing up , but it's limited and I

1:15:02

still would have died . So that hit me hard . But

1:15:04

okay , with my third , if

1:15:06

I was to change anything

1:15:08

about my third , it would be probably

1:15:11

to not focus so

1:15:13

much on the negative ways that I was feeling in

1:15:15

my labor , in pregnancy , because

1:15:17

I was very much . My headspace

1:15:20

when I was trying to get pregnant was hard . It took us a long

1:15:22

time to conceive her , a lot was going

1:15:24

on in the world and

1:15:26

everything like that . So I felt

1:15:28

like all of that came into

1:15:30

my pregnancy and my birth . So it was a lot

1:15:32

more stressed out . I carried a lot

1:15:34

of negative or

1:15:36

uncontrollable energy with me

1:15:39

throughout that pregnancy and birth and it felt

1:15:41

. I felt it in my labor . It was the most

1:15:43

intense and when I was done I was like I'm never doing this

1:15:45

again . And then , of course , as my daughter got older , I

1:15:47

was like , oh , you're so cute , maybe , but I was like nah

1:15:49

, because she's a sour patch

1:15:51

and she will like literally kiss you and then slap

1:15:54

you across the face and then kiss you again . So I totally

1:15:56

get that . I had the same feelings .

1:15:58

Yes , the insight that we have with every

1:16:00

birth is just so amazing , and I love that

1:16:03

. Well , first of all , with our podcasts , we

1:16:05

can share that insight and hopefully reach

1:16:07

more people so that more people are making

1:16:09

those decisions , because we don't have that village

1:16:11

anymore . And so then , what do you have

1:16:13

? Well , okay , we can try to broadcast it

1:16:15

all out there and have as many resources as possible

1:16:18

so that people that are going into

1:16:20

this don't have to have the same experiences

1:16:23

of trial and error that we had going

1:16:25

into the space . And luckily , I mean , it sounds

1:16:27

like you didn't have a whole lot of trauma with

1:16:29

your births , that they all went pretty well . I

1:16:32

did with my first , but

1:16:34

I was able to process it because I was a labor

1:16:36

and delivery nurse and I was able to talk to people that could help

1:16:38

me understand it . But it's just , I

1:16:41

feel , so much for people that go into

1:16:43

the birth space and have this trauma and they don't

1:16:45

. They feel stuck or they're not

1:16:47

able to bond with their baby or they're not able

1:16:49

to get past it , and it's something that just stops

1:16:52

them from progressing in life , because

1:16:54

they've been through this and they don't know how to process

1:16:57

it , and so I just think it's so important to share

1:16:59

what our takeaways were . Was

1:17:01

there anything else that you wanted to add that we didn't ?

1:17:03

touch on . No , I feel like we covered a lot

1:17:05

. I would say the main thing that

1:17:07

I kind of want to say is to do like a another

1:17:10

plug for my podcast by saying if you do

1:17:12

want to hear my birth stories in

1:17:14

more detail , my first three episodes

1:17:16

of my podcast are actually my

1:17:18

first three birth stories . There's a lot of stuff that I left

1:17:20

out because you know this is , you can

1:17:23

only say so much in one episode . But if

1:17:25

you're intrigued , go ahead and give it a listen

1:17:27

. And I'm primarily want to

1:17:29

say I'm super thankful that our energies are matching so

1:17:31

well because I feel like we're the same

1:17:33

person in different areas of the world and

1:17:36

I love that and I appreciate it and I'm glad that

1:17:39

we got connected .

1:17:40

Yeah , me too . Thank you so much for reaching out

1:17:42

that I mean I've been trying

1:17:44

and with my son Howling in the background

1:17:46

, I'm just going to go with

1:17:48

it . I've

1:17:51

been trying to really just send out that

1:17:53

energy , like the people that I need

1:17:55

to come in contact with . We

1:17:57

will find each other , and I feel like

1:17:59

the podcast was like the first step towards

1:18:02

that , and so now I'm trying to find that with

1:18:04

all of the other things , and I just

1:18:06

love that you are one of those people and

1:18:08

so I really thank you . That , you , that you

1:18:11

reached out . Well , kiona , as

1:18:13

my son is screaming in the background , thank

1:18:15

you so much for being a part

1:18:18

of this podcast , for reaching out , and

1:18:20

I really appreciate the conversations that

1:18:22

we had today , being able to be on your podcast

1:18:24

and you coming online , and I just encourage

1:18:26

everybody to listen to the birth as

1:18:28

we know it podcast and

1:18:30

all of Kiona's birth stories and

1:18:33

, if you , are you still being ? Are you still ?

1:18:35

doing . I am doing doula work very

1:18:37

gently right now because I have a young one

1:18:39

and my youngest is two and

1:18:42

I'm also still a birth assistant , but I haven't been in that

1:18:44

realm for a while as well . But I'm more

1:18:46

of . If you need someone to chat about birth , I'm

1:18:48

there and I love it . You

1:18:50

know , if you have questions , I'm there , I'm just . I just love

1:18:52

being in the birth community . I'm just not in the birth space as

1:18:55

much .

1:18:55

Yeah , and how can we ? How can somebody reach

1:18:57

out to ?

1:18:58

me . So I actually have my own website

1:19:01

and Instagram page . So if

1:19:03

somebody wants to follow

1:19:05

me on Instagram , they can follow me at birth

1:19:07

, as we know it podcast , and

1:19:10

if somebody wants to potentially

1:19:12

share their own birth story on my podcast

1:19:14

or connect , you can go to kionnesenbaumcom

1:19:18

and so that's K-I-O-N-A-N-E-S-S-E-N-B-A-U-M

1:19:24

dot com and then you

1:19:26

could just fill out the guest request form .

1:19:28

Awesome , well , thank you so ? Much

1:19:30

. I am really excited for this episode here . Yeah , thank you

1:19:32

.

1:19:32

I'm excited too , and I feel like we're going

1:19:34

to stay connected after this .

1:19:37

Yeah , absolutely yeah .