0:14

Alright , hello everyone . You are listening to

0:16

the Blockchain Socialist podcast and

0:18

for this interview , I'm

0:20

speaking to Gerrit Loewink , who

0:23

is the founder of the

0:25

Institute of Network Culture and

0:27

, as well , moneylab , which

0:29

I am here today

0:32

in Limassol in Cyprus . Since

0:34

I presented on the book , and

0:36

so since I was here with Gerrit , who is

0:38

a media theorist , I

0:40

thought would be a great opportunity to talk

0:43

to you in person .

0:44

Yes , great to finally meet you in person

0:46

.

0:47

Nice . So , gerrit , I think what

0:50

is going to be really interesting talking to you

0:52

for this conversation is that you've been sort of

0:54

involved in , I guess

0:56

, kind of like internet culture and the

0:59

things around it since almost

1:01

the beginning . Could I say that ?

1:03

Second generation . I consider myself

1:05

late 80s , early 90s yeah

1:08

yeah .

1:09

So I think it would be really interesting because a lot of people

1:11

I mean a lot of young people

1:13

, I think they don't , of

1:15

course , from not having the experience of being

1:18

on the internet in those early

1:20

days , don't really know much about

1:22

what it was like during

1:24

that time . Would you want

1:26

to kind of maybe paint a picture

1:28

for people ? What was the state

1:31

of the internet like when you were first

1:33

getting involved in , you

1:35

know , with it ?

1:37

Sure . For

1:40

me , the story , though

1:42

, is political and

1:45

it's also personal , so I'm telling

1:47

my story , but it's also , you

1:49

know , a political reading

1:52

of the times . Hard

1:55

to say where it

1:57

starts , beginnings always

1:59

difficult , but for me it

2:02

would be early 80s , my involvement

2:04

in a lot of social movement

2:06

, and squatting in particular . I

2:08

was studying political science at

2:11

the time at the University of Amsterdam , and

2:14

I graduated in

2:16

83 with a thesis

2:18

on the

2:21

, let's say , political economy of

2:23

publishing and

2:26

the question of how

2:28

social movements could build

2:30

sustainable forms

2:33

of income

2:35

, of

2:37

distribution , or

2:40

what , at the time , was

2:42

called , you know , alternative economy

2:46

, and that's , of course , a very

2:48

broad term . But for

2:50

us , at the time , it was very concrete

2:53

because we were running , you

2:56

know , we had a lot of cafes

2:59

, restaurants , theaters , printing

3:01

houses , publishing

3:04

houses . We had , of

3:06

course , our own , you know pirate radio

3:08

stations , a number of them , in fact . We

3:12

were producing films and

3:14

videos , a lot

3:17

of stuff , and so this was a

3:19

movement . At the time

3:21

, maybe around 10,000

3:23

people in Amsterdam alone

3:26

, you know , were living in , in squats

3:28

and were actively involved

3:31

in building

3:34

and maintaining these

3:36

infrastructures . So I focused

3:38

, really , on the question of the

3:41

maintenance and the financial

3:43

side of it . How do you

3:46

? Because we were running a

3:48

weekly , it was . It had

3:50

a circulation of 2000

3:52

, it's called bluff and so

3:54

, yeah , we had a quite

3:56

a number of years of experience

3:58

already how to do that

4:01

. So after

4:03

that I kind of switched

4:05

really and lost

4:08

my interest in the social sciences

4:10

and really moved to

4:13

the arts and humanities . And then

4:15

, as you said , yeah

4:17

, around 85 or 87

4:19

I became , or decided

4:22

to become , a European

4:24

media theorist . I had no idea what

4:27

that , would you know , entail

4:29

. But yeah , I was unemployed

4:33

and I lived off

4:35

the doll , like many , many

4:37

others of my generation

4:39

. It was a particularly dark time

4:41

and no jobs around whatsoever

4:44

, and so yeah . I was

4:46

on the doll for nine years

4:48

, to be honest . So that was a

4:50

long time , not always

4:52

, you know , I'm

4:54

not romanticizing it in any

4:57

way , but the

4:59

cost of living , of course , especially

5:02

housing , was

5:04

low right . So this

5:06

is the only reason why , you

5:08

know , we could essentially

5:11

do this , but we also kept it low

5:13

right and we thought about the

5:16

question of money very carefully . And

5:19

so this is where , for me

5:21

, you know , where all this

5:23

we're going to

5:25

talk about here is actually

5:27

, you know , originating . Then

5:30

, yeah , in 84 , I

5:32

had my first , you

5:34

know , personal computer , and

5:37

then I started

5:39

to , you know , working on it . In 87

5:41

I purchased

5:44

a new one , so one

5:47

that was really my , my own , the

5:49

first one I shared with others

5:51

. And , yeah , some years

5:54

later , I purchased

5:56

a modem , and of

5:59

course that was a

6:01

very important moment

6:03

because it was not

6:05

just , you know , for data processing

6:08

or something for writing or doing

6:10

other stuff . But

6:12

, yeah , by 89

6:15

, 90 , yeah

6:17

, we started to participate

6:19

in in billet and boards and we started

6:21

really to connect and build

6:24

the networks that you

6:26

know , in way already existed . But

6:29

before that , of course , we used other things

6:31

. We use telephone , fax , we used

6:33

, yeah , of course , meetings

6:35

in

6:37

in person , and so on . Right

6:40

, so the idea of networking was

6:43

, of course , already quite

6:45

advanced , and so in

6:48

the late 80s , we

6:50

just suddenly got another technical

6:52

tool to do this , and

6:54

so to connect computers

6:57

was something that was something

6:59

you know was long in the making . I

7:02

remember very well , the very first

7:04

time I touched the computer was already in the early

7:06

70s , so

7:09

it really goes back right . So we're

7:11

talking already when the modem arrived

7:13

we're already talking about you

7:15

know 20 years basically of computing

7:18

, but of course , ordinary people

7:20

, you know they didn't have so much access

7:22

to it , so it was really a question

7:25

of you know access and

7:27

our provider was called access for

7:30

all right . So this is

7:32

yeah , and I

7:35

started to meet

7:37

you know hackers

7:39

and programmers and in

7:42

89 I was part of

7:44

a big hacker convention

7:46

called the galactic galactic hacker

7:48

convention in . Paradiso

7:50

in Amsterdam . So this is where a lot

7:53

of the , let's say , early players

7:55

came together

7:57

and there I also met of a few

7:59

characters , and in the early

8:01

90s , one

8:03

of them was David Chow . So

8:06

, yeah , and I interviewed

8:09

him , like we do right

8:12

now , back in

8:14

1992 , because some

8:16

friends of mine worked

8:18

for , for his

8:20

company that was part

8:22

of the University of Amsterdam , based

8:26

in the Institute for mathematics

8:30

and information

8:32

, cve , and this

8:35

company was called DigiCash , and

8:37

so , yeah

8:40

, so , funny enough for those

8:42

who are interested in

8:44

, my interview with David Chow

8:46

is available

8:48

on the internet

8:50

archive . And

8:53

so this was this was the

8:57

first time when

8:59

we started to connect

9:01

, let's say , computing and networking

9:03

with the question of , of

9:06

economics and payment systems . Right

9:09

, and so , because my

9:11

friends were working at DigiCash

9:14

, yeah , I was very

9:16

early on aware of it and

9:18

also remember , a decade

9:20

earlier I already

9:22

wrote my thesis about this

9:25

. So from the very , very start

9:27

of the internet , well before the

9:29

worldwide web , we entered

9:31

this field with the

9:34

awareness that , you

9:37

know , this would have

9:39

to become financially

9:43

sustainable for those who

9:45

would be , who would be involved

9:47

that is super interesting

9:50

that you met David Chow

9:52

back when he was making DigiCash

9:54

for people , I guess , who don't

9:56

know much .

9:57

David Chow was is considered , I guess , one of the

9:59

first people to really bring

10:02

some sort of prototype , I guess of like digital

10:04

cash . That was not , you

10:07

know , I think . I think the

10:09

the mechanism itself still involved banks

10:12

for it to work , if I remember

10:14

correctly . How did you catch ? Well , it was not you

10:16

know a currency

10:19

.

10:19

But yeah , I want to note here

10:21

that the

10:23

employee which was most

10:25

closely involved is

10:29

a guy who's still around and

10:31

who is a member

10:34

of the moneylap community

10:36

from day one and his name is

10:38

Edward De Jong and

10:40

he is still involved in

10:43

writing code , in

10:45

producing , you know , models

10:49

for for everything you

10:52

know you and I will

10:54

talk about here , and you

10:56

know so he is

10:58

. He's still around

11:01

, and so that's in itself

11:04

interesting . And , by

11:06

the way , david Chow is also still approachable

11:08

. He's still alive , although , you

11:10

know , he eventually moved

11:13

back to California . Maybe

11:15

it's interesting to note that he

11:17

was one of the generation of the of

11:20

the Americans who fled the

11:22

US because he didn't want to go

11:24

into the army . This was during

11:26

the Vietnam War and that this is

11:28

how he ended up in

11:31

in Amsterdam so

11:34

I mean , yeah , this is not really interesting , that I

11:37

guess what .

11:38

What I kind of see is that there was already

11:40

kind of this yeah

11:42

, social movements around having

11:46

an alternative currency

11:48

which you could kind of be

11:50

somewhat outside of the system while

11:53

being able to stain yourself with the reality

11:55

of needing to buy food and buy

11:57

rent , or to be able to

11:59

pay for rent in in Amsterdam

12:01

, which for me is hard

12:04

to imagine now , just because when I go to Amsterdam

12:06

I'm like , wow , everything is quite expensive

12:08

, yeah , I know the

12:10

city went down hill , yes

12:14

, and so that is in

12:16

itself a very unfortunate history

12:19

.

12:20

I wouldn't say , you know , it's a lost

12:23

battle , because the

12:26

the movement around

12:28

, you know , housing

12:30

gentrification is

12:33

strong , since

12:35

over 10 years squatting is forbidden

12:38

, but we're still squatting and yeah

12:40

, my institute is also actively

12:42

taking part in that

12:44

. So we're still a part of

12:47

that struggle , even

12:49

though , as you say , you know there's

12:51

an enormous amount of terrain

12:54

and that has been lost

12:56

and prices are

12:58

ridiculously high

13:00

.

13:01

But people are fighting back yeah

13:03

, yeah , it's a yeah

13:05

, it's a problem that seems to be a

13:07

problem in almost

13:09

every kind of European capital , in

13:12

major city . That that I can see . I

13:14

know in the US as well . But

13:17

yeah , I think because

13:19

one of the things that's I sometimes

13:21

often come across as people

13:23

wanting to build an alternative

13:26

economy when I talk to people online that

13:28

we need this alternative economy to help sustain

13:30

ourselves , and oftentimes

13:32

it's forgotten that this actually existed and

13:35

this was done through a lot of different types of

13:37

selling of media and , as

13:40

well , squatting and taking

13:42

these types of actions .

13:44

Yeah , and thinking through it I

13:46

still am . I'm

13:49

still very much focused on the German context

13:51

and already in

13:53

the late 70s and early 80s the

13:56

thinking about this was already

13:59

very well advanced

14:01

and it somehow coincided

14:04

with what

14:06

you know at the time was called

14:08

the crisis of

14:10

Marxism . But , a lot of people

14:13

saw the crisis of Marxism

14:15

at the time also as an opportunity

14:18

and not just as a loss or

14:20

something like that . I need to

14:22

really emphasize this because

14:24

a lot of the social movements

14:26

, especially those involved in ecology

14:29

, in feminism , in anti-nuclear

14:32

struggles , in squatting , really

14:35

took up a lot of

14:39

the notions and I

14:41

think the notion

14:44

that for me then stood

14:46

out in the 90s was

14:49

our effort to really get

14:51

a grip on the

14:53

political economy of the

14:55

internet . So we started doing that

14:57

and we pit-shoots and

14:59

I we started the net-time mailing list

15:01

in 1994

15:04

, 1995 and

15:06

this was one of our explicit aims

15:09

. I want to say that the net-time

15:11

mailing list we're very proud

15:13

of that . It still exists , it's a large community

15:16

and it continues

15:18

these conversations

15:20

, so now over

15:23

a 30-year period

15:26

. So

15:29

because we entered

15:31

the very early internet with that

15:33

scope , a

15:36

few things were

15:38

very , very striking . I

15:41

myself worked with

15:43

the people that found that Wired

15:45

. They lived in Amsterdam . This

15:48

is not so well known but yes

15:50

. So Wired is a magazine

15:52

that comes from Amsterdam and

15:55

at the time it was called Electric Word

15:57

. And I was

15:59

involved at the time in a media or

16:03

video art magazine called

16:05

MediaMatic and we were very close

16:08

. It was the same scene . We shared

16:10

Office and so on and so on . So

16:13

these were Jane and Louis and

16:17

they in late in 1992

16:21

, they moved to San

16:23

Francisco to start

16:26

Wired magazine and

16:29

they took some of us with them and

16:31

others remained , and

16:36

at the time we were already quite

16:38

aware about

16:41

the circles in which they ended

16:43

up . And

16:45

this was the circles . That

16:48

was a transformation

16:50

of a very

16:52

kind of old school venture

16:55

capital , because there is

16:57

I want to remind people

16:59

here , there is old school venture

17:02

capital which already existed

17:04

in the 1970s , 70s

17:06

and 80s . For

17:09

us , a lot of venture capital

17:11

really only comes into being around

17:15

the mid 90s , but

17:20

there are routes that

17:22

go back earlier

17:25

. And

17:27

so we found out that

17:30

they started

17:32

to have access to

17:34

very strange money

17:37

. It

17:39

was not banks , they wouldn't just

17:41

start a company , because

17:45

that's not what you do when

17:48

you are in venture capital circles

17:50

you don't start just

17:52

a company .

17:54

It doesn't work like that .

17:56

Because it's all about financing

17:58

. So

18:00

you start with the financing model

18:03

in a way , and the company doesn't really

18:05

matter . It comes later , because

18:08

you need to have an idea , you need

18:11

to have the white paper . We know that by

18:13

now , but at the

18:15

time this was something

18:17

quite esoteric

18:21

, secret , and

18:23

especially in 1992

18:26

and 1993 , especially

18:28

in California , this

18:30

was a scene

18:33

that was kind of in

18:35

the making and

18:37

you can now read a little bit more about

18:39

it . In general , I would say there's

18:41

not enough historical

18:44

work yet done by

18:47

it . The

18:53

only book is from counterculture to cyber

18:55

culture , but

18:58

, by the way , a very

19:00

interesting one that I want to mention

19:02

here is also a Polina Borsuk

19:04

book , because

19:07

she is one of the early writers

19:10

of Wired . Which

19:14

then , in late 1999

19:17

or 2000s , wrote her memoirs

19:19

, let's say , of the 90s . And

19:21

in this book you

19:23

can read a little bit

19:25

also about the early

19:28

time . By

19:30

1994 , 1995

19:34

, the way of funding and

19:36

the way what we then

19:39

called political economy of the internet

19:41

started to really take shape , and

19:44

it's well known and this culminated

19:47

then in the so-called IPO

19:49

of Netscape , which

19:51

is kind of seen as the beginning

19:53

of the dot com hype .

19:55

Right , and that was started by Mark N Jeeson

19:57

, who is the head of . Anderson

20:00

Horowitz , who is also happy to have the investment .

20:02

Yeah , so he was there at

20:04

the very beginning of all this

20:06

. Important

20:09

there was for us that

20:11

this

20:13

kind of mysterious or esoteric

20:16

part remained the

20:18

core of the operation , because

20:20

it was all

20:23

about not

20:25

money that you would invest in

20:27

the traditional sense . It

20:30

was all about what at the time was

20:32

called funny money . It

20:36

was money that was somehow there

20:38

, it was liquid , it was invisible . The

20:41

numbers were incredible . What

20:44

were they investing in ? There was no business

20:46

model . There

20:49

was no idea

20:51

that if you would invest

20:53

something you would have a return . This

20:57

whole idea was skipped

20:59

and that led us then , already

21:02

in I would

21:05

say around 97

21:07

, 98 , we started

21:09

to get a better understanding

21:12

of this and we formulated this

21:14

idea of the economy of the free

21:16

, in

21:18

which you would basically

21:20

just create an enormous

21:22

bubble . You would just invest

21:25

it didn't really matter in what

21:27

. You would give

21:29

away everything for free

21:32

, with the sole aim

21:34

, of course which took a while

21:36

for us to figure out to

21:39

create new monopolies

21:41

which would then later on

21:44

, you know , sort

21:46

out how

21:48

they would get the money back and

21:50

then also how they would make

21:53

insane amounts of

21:55

money because they would not have any

21:58

competition . So it

22:00

was very early , from very early

22:02

on , it was clear that this

22:05

was not about markets , it was

22:07

about eliminating competition

22:09

. So

22:11

the whole venture capital model was

22:15

incredible

22:17

money , you

22:22

know the sheer size of it was

22:24

for us was really

22:26

difficult to

22:28

understand . And that then

22:30

culminated of course in

22:32

dotcom mania

22:34

, which at the time we

22:38

extensively documented

22:41

it . So

22:43

I also wrote my

22:46

PhD thesis

22:48

in part about

22:51

this . So

22:53

that time from , let's

22:57

say , from 95

22:59

, 96 onwards is

23:02

quite well documented . It's

23:05

an absolutely crazy time with

23:09

an insane amount of money

23:11

invested in

23:13

hilarious companies

23:15

Petscom- Petscom

23:18

is the classic

23:20

. And

23:22

so , but yeah

23:25

, it would be very , very interesting

23:27

to kind of map

23:29

the time just

23:32

before that so

23:34

the time that I'm just referring to now

23:36

would be from 92 probably

23:39

to 95

23:41

, how this system

23:43

which is now still ruling the

23:46

world , basically the whole venture capital

23:49

driven model

23:53

, how they themselves gained

23:57

financial

23:59

hegemony and essentially

24:03

also they have still

24:05

have a monopoly over

24:08

the way we think in , how

24:10

a company in

24:13

this context , be it blockchain

24:16

, AI , big

24:18

data , it doesn't really matter what , how

24:21

it should be founded , how it should

24:23

be financed

24:25

and governed , right , they

24:27

set the parameters

24:29

. And , yeah , I was very

24:32

unfortunate to see that throughout

24:36

the blockchain ecosystem

24:39

, this model was

24:41

not really a question

24:43

, nor would people really

24:45

have an idea where it came from

24:48

and what its premises

24:50

were .

24:51

Yeah , I'm actually curious I mean just

24:53

jumping off from that how you think about

24:55

the ICO

24:58

boom that happened . I think it was

25:00

like 2016 , 17 in

25:02

the crypto world , when there was

25:04

, of course , there

25:07

were many bad parts , people fundraising

25:10

on projects that didn't end up

25:12

happening or there was something wrong

25:14

with it . It was just like a piece of paper

25:16

that generated millions of

25:18

dollars . But one

25:21

of the common kind of

25:23

arguments is that which

25:25

I kind of I mean I sympathize

25:27

with is that the entrance

25:30

of venture capital in the crypto world happened

25:32

because of increased

25:35

regulation in the crypto

25:37

industry that prevented ICOs

25:39

from being possible

25:42

. That , like it was the state

25:44

regulation that basically allowed

25:48

for the funnel of venture capital to start

25:51

coming in a lot more .

25:52

But this is a historical fact for

25:54

me . Yeah

25:58

, it is true that ICOs

26:00

are based on another

26:02

model . I doubt

26:05

myself , really that they

26:07

were created out

26:09

of a thorough

26:11

critique of the venture capital

26:13

model itself . So

26:16

that is maybe less the

26:19

case , and

26:21

also remember at the

26:23

time or any in the 80s and

26:25

also in 90s , we were quite focused

26:28

on long term , sustainable

26:31

financial models , and

26:35

so we were , in that

26:37

sense , quite wary of

26:39

anything that

26:42

promised big

26:44

returns get

26:46

rich quick

26:49

schemes . So , in

26:51

that sense , yeah , and that's

26:54

, of course , a much older and

26:56

broader debate , which

26:58

you could say , also centers

27:00

around the accelerationists

27:03

, in a way , because

27:05

the accelerationists have a

27:07

much more positive approach

27:10

to certain

27:12

bursts , let's say , of

27:14

scaling up

27:16

. And

27:18

, yeah , even though we

27:21

believed that social

27:23

movements themselves sometimes

27:27

go through such very

27:31

turbulent moments

27:33

of growth , we

27:35

believed that social movements

27:37

could and

27:39

can only survive if

27:42

they work on

27:44

long term , sustainable

27:47

infrastructures to

27:50

, in a way , to survive

27:52

exactly these bumps

27:56

and busts that exist . Of

27:58

course , it is true . Look

28:00

at Occupy Wall Street or something like

28:02

that . It was big

28:05

in 2011

28:07

and early 12 , and then , of

28:09

course , it went down . Movements

28:13

all have these ups

28:15

and downs . However

28:17

, if you've been around long enough , you

28:19

know that the

28:22

way to survive

28:25

that is to build

28:27

structures underneath

28:29

. That can also , then

28:32

, let's say

28:34

, transfer

28:36

notions

28:39

, critical experiences

28:43

, back to others

28:45

and , of course , can be transferred

28:49

to new generations , because this

28:51

is how , in the

28:53

infrastructure , you

28:56

embed experiences

28:59

, and this is what we'll see

29:01

now , if there will be a

29:04

next wave of crypto

29:06

, blockchain , whatever . All

29:10

we want is really that

29:12

the experience from

29:15

the last 10 or so years

29:17

will be , of course

29:19

, transferred to the next

29:21

generation so that they can at

29:24

least learn something from

29:26

the previous experience

29:28

, and this

29:30

is what we did . And

29:32

this , for me , then culminated in

29:35

the first moments

29:38

of taking stock , let's say

29:40

, which was probably happening

29:42

just around the

29:45

boom and bust of Dotcom

29:47

Mania , or , how we call it , tulipomania

29:50

, back in 1999

29:54

and 2000 . And this is also

29:56

the moment and I want to refer

29:59

to this when one of our

30:01

early members of

30:03

NetTime presented

30:05

her PhD thesis at

30:07

Goldsmith in London . Her

30:09

name is Corina Patelis , she

30:12

is from Athens and

30:14

she wrote one of the first

30:16

really thorough

30:18

studies and

30:20

she called it playing

30:23

political economy of the internet . She

30:27

submitted it in 2000

30:29

and you can download

30:31

it and it really

30:33

gives a very , very good overview

30:36

of that first

30:39

decade . Of

30:41

course , then after that

30:43

, we came

30:47

in a completely different dynamic

30:50

, because first there was the first

30:52

internet crisis , which

30:55

coincided also with 9-11

30:57

and a couple of other things in

30:59

2000 , 2001 , but then

31:01

in 2003 , silicon

31:04

Valley really started to restructure

31:07

itself , venture Capital really

31:11

had a firm grip at

31:13

that time , and this is when

31:15

Web2.0

31:17

was born and Facebook

31:20

and Twitter

31:22

and all the rest . So

31:25

I have to say that both Google and Amazon

31:28

, of course , are companies

31:30

from the first wave . So

31:32

Amazon started in 1995

31:35

, google in 1998 , and

31:37

Google was the only one who

31:39

was able

31:42

to grow and really

31:44

benefit from the dot-com

31:46

crisis . This is very interesting , and

31:49

why ? Because they

31:51

were fed by all this venture

31:54

capital that kept on going

31:56

and that didn't ask

32:01

for revenues or

32:03

let alone profit .

32:07

Hi everyone . If you're enjoying this episode so

32:09

far , be sure to subscribe , leave a review

32:11

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32:13

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32:15

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32:18

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32:20

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32:22

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32:25

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32:27

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32:29

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32:31

really helps , since making this stuff isn't free

32:33

in terms of money or time . As

32:36

a patron , you'll get a shout out on an episode , like I just did

32:38

, and access to bonus content like Q&A episodes

32:40

where you can submit and vote on questions you'd like me to

32:42

answer , and I'll give my thoughts in roughly 20

32:44

minutes . In the last bonus episode

32:46

, I gave a reaction to a clip from a recent episode

32:48

of the deep program when they interviewed Hassan

32:50

Piker , which had a lot of relevance to left-wing

32:53

organizing internationally . Of

32:55

course , I'll still be making free content like this interview

32:58

to help spread the message that blockchain doesn't need

33:00

to be used to further entrench capitalist exploitation

33:02

, if we put our efforts into it . So if that

33:04

message resonates with you , I hope you'll consider helping

33:06

out and

33:10

then so maybe we can get to talking

33:12

a bit about MoneyLab and how

33:15

that has developed . We

33:19

just spent the past couple of days in Limassol

33:22

kind of talking with a bunch of people who

33:24

here Brett Scott was there

33:26

, who's also been on the podcast to talk

33:28

about I think the theme

33:30

was crypto and art , so

33:33

I presented as well about the book . But MoneyLab

33:35

has been something that's been going on for

33:37

quite some time and it's not just focused

33:40

on crypto but it is , I think , from

33:42

my understanding , one of the first kind

33:44

of like collectives . I guess

33:46

that has been thinking about

33:48

in some critical

33:50

aspect or analysis around cryptocurrency

33:53

from a more left-wing perspective that

33:56

I could find it was like one of the first places where

33:58

some people could come and like share that type

34:01

of work .

34:01

That's very true , and MoneyLab

34:04

started as a network exactly

34:07

10 years ago , so in

34:09

late 2013

34:11

. And it had

34:13

the first conference

34:16

event in early 2014

34:19

, and it was opened which is interesting

34:21

by Saskia Sassen , who

34:25

is obviously a person who

34:27

works , let's say

34:29

, in the field that Brett Scott

34:31

operates in . She is really

34:34

, of course , so

34:36

much more famous . She

34:40

wrote her influential

34:42

book on the

34:45

role of global

34:47

finance in New York

34:49

, london and Tokyo in the 1980s

34:52

and the way global

34:54

finance in these three

34:56

global cities transformed

34:59

the city , and our

35:01

interview . We started off

35:03

with that , and

35:12

so I was very proud that she would kick off

35:15

the

35:17

MoneyLab initiative

35:19

At

35:21

the time . It was quite

35:24

diverse . I

35:26

was involved

35:28

in the whole crypto scene

35:30

very early on , with Amir and

35:33

Jeremy and many others

35:35

that were in

35:37

Amsterdam that we met , and

35:40

so , for us and for them

35:42

, the whole support

35:45

of Julian Assange at the time

35:47

in 2011

35:49

and 2012 , really coincided

35:52

with our growing

35:55

interest in

35:57

the use of Bitcoin

36:00

, and

36:02

so , however , my

36:07

institute of network cultures that I started

36:09

in 2004 , before

36:12

I had to deal with completely

36:14

other , you know , emergencies , and

36:17

this is in 2011 , of

36:19

course , was

36:21

also the year of Arab Spring , of Occupy

36:25

Wall Street and so many , yeah , the movement

36:27

of the squares , so many turbulence

36:30

things , and we

36:33

really wanted to address

36:36

inside that the

36:39

growing importance of social

36:41

media monopolies and the work

36:44

that already started , believe

36:46

it or not . But the

36:48

critique of Facebook , google

36:52

, instagram you name it Twitter

36:54

, right , it was already

36:57

very well articulated

37:00

back in 2011

37:02

. Back then , we had a

37:05

complete and full awareness of

37:07

what was the situation and also

37:10

what was ahead

37:12

of us . So the question of

37:15

how to look at social

37:17

media and social networking from

37:19

a social media movement's

37:23

perspective was , politically

37:25

speaking , more

37:27

important than the money

37:30

lab issue , even though , you

37:32

know so , we really had to

37:37

see how we were doing that . So this is

37:39

why there was a two year delay

37:42

, and so only

37:44

in 2013

37:46

, we started to focus on and

37:49

this is , of course , because back then

37:51

, yeah , the consequences

37:53

of the global

37:55

financial crisis of 2008

37:58

became very apparent . Also

38:01

, in the Netherlands , we had a huge

38:03

wave of austerity , which

38:05

hit our sector

38:07

particularly hard . In the Netherlands

38:09

in 2011 and 2012

38:12

, the spending government

38:14

spending on culture and the arts

38:16

was literally overnight

38:19

cut in half and

38:21

so but this was happening , of course

38:23

, across the board , not just in

38:26

culture , it was happening everywhere , and

38:29

so there was the

38:31

idea that people just had to

38:33

focus much more on

38:36

self-organization and

38:39

on political protests in this

38:41

field was quite

38:43

high at the time . And

38:45

this is the real , let's

38:47

say , origin of money

38:51

lab . Originally

38:53

, as you said in your introduction

38:55

, the agenda

38:58

was quite broad

39:00

. We

39:03

had an interest in

39:05

crowdfunding because

39:08

of the kind of decentralized

39:11

nature of it . Well

39:13

, very early on , we worked with Trevor Schultz

39:16

and with the focus that

39:18

he was developing out

39:21

of New York at the time on

39:23

platform cooperatives

39:26

and these kinds of other

39:29

models of

39:31

what you could call non-profit

39:33

enterprises or

39:36

give it a name . So

39:43

. But Bitcoin

39:46

was , in fact , one of the six topics

39:48

that we discussed in

39:50

money lab one and

39:54

so , and then , yeah , it developed . We

39:56

organized three big events in

39:59

Amsterdam in 14 , 15 and 16

40:01

. And then money lab started

40:04

to travel and

40:06

again came

40:08

back to Amsterdam in 19

40:10

. And unfortunately that was

40:12

then also the last one to

40:15

have a physical meeting , because after

40:17

that COVID

40:19

kicked in and we

40:22

organized four money

40:24

labs online , which

40:27

was a huge effort

40:29

and very successful . But

40:33

then late 21

40:35

, kind of we didn't really

40:37

. Maybe we ran out of steam or

40:39

people didn't want to have

40:42

yet another Zoom conference

40:45

. You know , so that this was clearly visible

40:48

. And

40:52

yeah , now we are here in

40:54

Limersal and this was

40:57

, you know , the 13th edition

41:00

of money lab quite

41:03

small , and that's just because , you

41:06

know , we lost a lot

41:08

of ground , we lost a lot of resources

41:11

. In particular , as you may

41:13

have noticed , we did not lose our

41:16

critical focus and I think that

41:18

we can be proud that

41:21

the overall level of

41:24

the presentations and also of the debates

41:26

, it was high . So

41:29

, in that sense , we can be proud

41:31

and we can also be confident . However

41:34

, in the last two years

41:36

yeah , I don't know , something

41:38

has happened and maybe it's inevitably

41:41

also connected to a

41:44

lot of people being very disappointed

41:46

about you know

41:48

where the whole crypto thing was

41:51

going .

41:56

I think there's also maybe Brett Scott mentioned this in

41:58

his presentation but people becoming almost

42:01

, like , physically sick of

42:04

the technology of constantly

42:07

being either on the computer , on the phone

42:09

and being just tethered to it , which

42:11

is ironic because this is kind of like a

42:14

space for critical analysis and thought about

42:16

these technologies , but part

42:18

of the issue is that the encroachment

42:20

of that technology has reached the point where

42:22

people have become

42:24

a bit sick of it .

42:26

Yeah , and

42:28

in my recent book , set by Design and

42:30

stuck on the platform , I've literally

42:33

brought these two

42:36

elements together . But

42:39

for me , the mental

42:41

state of the

42:43

online billions , you know

42:45

, which is really quite diverse

42:48

, of course , because it goes from anger

42:51

to despair

42:53

, to anxiety

42:55

, to sadness

42:58

, melancholy , but even

43:00

up to , you know , the more clinical

43:03

problems such as

43:05

depression , right ? So

43:07

this whole , let's say , scope

43:10

of

43:12

problems I

43:15

have dealt

43:17

with extensively , but

43:19

also pointed

43:21

out always that , you

43:24

know , forms of self-organization

43:26

and forms of awareness

43:30

of more sustainable

43:32

models should be

43:34

a way out . Here in Europe

43:36

, we cannot just

43:39

withdraw on what I call , you

43:41

know , european offline romanticism

43:43

, which is kind of a very German idea

43:45

that if you just over the weekend

43:48

put your phone aside and

43:50

go to the forest , etc

43:52

that you could somehow

43:54

recover and recuperate

43:56

. This is not the way

43:58

to go . So

44:02

for us , the social

44:04

today is a techno social

44:06

and should

44:08

be also a

44:11

monetary social

44:13

, you know , should be a form of

44:16

care in which we

44:18

think about production

44:21

, finance , but also about

44:23

redistribution of wealth and

44:26

a more , you

44:29

know , democratic and distributed

44:31

form of value creation

44:34

. So , and this is

44:36

for me part of the solution

44:39

, right , but

44:41

I didn't think Brett

44:43

was suggesting you know that working

44:46

on the solution would make you sick .

44:49

I don't think so . No , no , no . But for

44:53

you with MoneyLab in

44:55

your work you're not kind of

44:57

, because one of the you

44:59

know on one side kind of the caricature

45:02

of like people on the left when it

45:04

comes to money is to kind of like reject

45:06

money or to , you know

45:08

, put it aside , not talk

45:10

about it , because we don't want money in our utopia

45:12

, so we shouldn't talk about it , it's not important

45:15

. So

45:17

I guess for you in your experience it

45:19

sounds like you're saying money is actually quite important

45:21

.

45:24

Yeah , it's probably not driving

45:26

it , but I would turn it around

45:28

a little bit and I would say the defining

45:31

thing for a

45:34

sustainable struggle

45:36

of social movements is

45:38

autonomous infrastructure and

45:41

one that really can

45:45

continue for

45:47

years or even decades , because

45:50

in that way you accumulate

45:52

experience and

45:56

maybe , yes , you accumulate

45:59

money and capital , but maybe

46:01

not defined

46:04

just by how much

46:06

euros there are on

46:08

the bank , because

46:10

capital , money and

46:12

value , as we know , we

46:14

can really

46:17

also discuss alternative

46:19

definitions

46:21

of them . And

46:24

this kind of also comes , of course which

46:26

is a very important source

46:28

of inspiration from

46:31

the feminist

46:33

critique of the political economy back in

46:35

the 1970s

46:37

, in which

46:39

they critiqued

46:42

the invisible and

46:44

of the immaterial labor

46:46

of housework , and

46:49

this is in itself a

46:52

very important critique of

46:54

the classic

46:57

or dogmatic Marxian

46:59

political economy that was only focused

47:01

on the male and on

47:04

the exploitation of

47:06

the male worker in the factory . We've

47:10

moved on from there , luckily

47:13

, with 50 years later

47:15

, right , and I

47:17

think a lot of the ideas of

47:21

value and money

47:23

now are based

47:25

on very different notions .

47:29

One of the things that I also read about your work

47:31

is you had this concept of tactical

47:34

media . I was wondering if you can talk a bit about

47:36

that .

47:37

Sure , no , I'm never

47:39

tired of doing that . It's

47:41

probably the most well-known

47:44

of the

47:46

concepts that we developed , which

47:49

are never just

47:51

merely ideas , right

47:53

? The idea

47:56

of tactical media goes

47:58

back to the

48:00

mid-90s , I would

48:02

say , when we had really an

48:04

idea that you

48:08

had an infrastructure with your own

48:10

radios and magazines and

48:12

internet websites

48:16

and virtual communities

48:18

and mailing lists , and you

48:20

name it right . But that

48:23

kind of solid infrastructure

48:27

didn't say

48:29

much about how you

48:31

would utilize them or

48:34

how you would combine

48:37

them in a moment

48:39

of political

48:41

struggle or campaigning , or so

48:46

the idea of tactical media

48:48

, then , comes from an

48:50

idea that

48:52

in some cases , it

48:55

can be very significant politically

48:58

speaking , if you want to kick off a

49:01

campaign , to do graffiti

49:06

on the streets or spread

49:10

pamphlets

49:12

. In

49:18

other cases , you would start online

49:20

. In the next case

49:23

, you would emphasize

49:26

on gatherings , on

49:30

coming together in real

49:33

space . So the

49:35

notion of tactical media is

49:37

, then , one which

49:40

emphasizes the flexibility

49:43

of

49:45

us , and

49:47

maybe also it's an invitation to

49:49

maybe go beyond what

49:51

we're traditionally good at

49:54

or focused at . In

49:57

this case , for young people , that would , of course , be

50:00

something like Instagram , right ? Everything

50:02

starts and finishes with Instagram

50:06

these days , right ? And so

50:08

a tactical media notion would

50:11

just point at

50:14

the sheer endless possibilities

50:17

that there are beyond Instagram

50:19

.

50:22

That's interesting because I'm

50:25

supposed to be running a panel in

50:27

a few days in Istanbul for

50:30

DevConnect and the

50:32

topic of that one is how to . I

50:35

was kind of pressuring or suggesting

50:37

to them that , rather

50:39

than solely thinking about social through

50:42

the lens of the digital and

50:45

whatever social media or things

50:47

like that , that we should maybe offer an

50:49

opportunity for people to kind of think critically when

50:52

do you want , for example

50:54

, social media or whatever this technology

50:56

to be used in particular

50:59

situations versus other ones ? Maybe there are times

51:01

where you don't want to use or rely

51:03

on social media as a thing that you do and

51:06

that , in fact , you want to be critical

51:08

about when you would want to use it and that

51:10

to focus on the use of the

51:12

technology as one that facilitates

51:15

the type of relationships that you

51:17

want to have . That's

51:20

a tactical media question and , at the time

51:23

.

51:23

I would say

51:25

it was also a critique of

51:28

a very narrow

51:31

kind of focus on the left , just

51:34

on traditional mainstream media

51:36

. It would be , successful if

51:39

you were seen on television

51:41

or if you

51:43

would have a radio coverage or

51:45

if a mainstream

51:48

daily newspaper would

51:50

write about you . In

51:53

the 90s I already thought this is

51:55

such an old fashioned idea

51:59

and it doesn't say anything about

52:02

the

52:05

intervention that you did or

52:07

your appeal on

52:10

the collective imagination

52:12

. If you go in

52:14

that mainstream media direction

52:17

, you inevitably only

52:20

talk about representation

52:23

. Who do you represent

52:26

? Or were you represented

52:29

well by this or that

52:31

radio station or in a TV

52:33

show ? Of course you were not . No

52:35

, you were fucked over . Right , because

52:37

this is not

52:41

.

52:41

Nowadays , people

52:43

know that . I would say that

52:45

the media sphere is

52:47

very much on the . We need to have our own

52:50

Exactly .

52:56

But that was a very important shift

53:01

that we have seen , maybe

53:03

also in the last

53:05

10 years , because

53:10

it was a very painful lesson

53:14

, but we had to witness

53:16

that the right-wing populists were

53:19

ahead of us in this kind of thing In this case

53:21

, because they were maybe

53:24

even more so aware that

53:27

they would never have a

53:29

fair say in

53:31

the mainstream media . And these

53:33

days it's even strange

53:35

because can I still

53:38

use a term like mainstream media

53:40

? We've always done that . I've

53:43

worked in this field for

53:46

40 , almost 50 years now , and

53:48

nowadays I

53:50

feel a certain shame to

53:52

talk about mainstream

53:55

media , because this

53:57

term has been taken

53:59

over and monopolized so much

54:01

by by right-wing

54:03

populists .

54:05

But this is a term I remember very clearly

54:07

. When I first came

54:09

across this term , it was from a left-wing perspective

54:12

, because there was this lack of

54:14

left-wing voices in

54:16

media and it goes back to you

54:18

know , norm Chomsky , reading the New

54:20

York Times and so on paper tiger

54:22

television .

54:23

You know there's numerous

54:26

, numerous cases . So

54:28

, yeah , so we need to be , in

54:30

that sense again , more

54:33

confident and

54:35

maybe less

54:37

ashamed

54:40

, and we

54:42

need to strike back in

54:45

this term . You know , the critique of

54:47

the mainstream media has

54:49

been a project that we've

54:51

been working on for 50

54:54

or so years , and this

54:57

culminated in an

55:00

acute awareness that

55:02

it's not enough

55:04

to critique them , to

55:06

deconstruct their agendas , to

55:09

practice you

55:11

know the ideology criticism

55:14

but that this can only

55:16

be done if we also

55:18

have our own channels

55:21

that have

55:24

to be sustainable

55:26

and have to be maintained , also financially

55:29

.

55:29

Right . Right , and that's

55:31

one of the things that I would

55:34

love there to be more maybe

55:37

understanding or like some sort of research on is

55:40

like I

55:42

don't know . I think the Patreon and

55:44

these kind of like the micro payments

55:47

type of platforms were

55:49

, I think , a bit of a turning point for left

55:51

wing media , like Chapo Trap

55:53

House , for example one of the biggest podcasts

55:56

on the earlier ones like

55:58

they are only able to

56:00

sustain themselves because of these innovations

56:02

in payments and how

56:04

payments are able to be done over

56:06

the internet , and which I

56:09

think there is like this double thing of

56:11

like you can question whether did this

56:13

help destroy more local

56:15

kind of left media

56:17

or

56:20

did it reinvigorate it instead ? But

56:24

I think like this question of like payments is actually extremely

56:26

important for the left

56:28

having its own autonomous infrastructure

56:31

, because right now , if Patreon

56:33

didn't want to support

56:35

I don't know left wing media anymore

56:37

, it could decide to

56:39

not do that and that would be so . It

56:41

would reveal kind of that right now

56:43

, the infrastructure of

56:46

left media is basically

56:48

Patreon right now . Yeah , and

56:50

a problem .

56:51

And then you enter , let's say , the

56:54

first 10 years of the

56:56

moneylap debate , because

56:58

the next question then would

57:01

be of

57:03

course , there's Patreon

57:05

. This is a platform , this

57:07

is an intermediate

57:09

, and the

57:12

promise of the

57:14

crypto , blockchain , etc . Was

57:17

, and maybe still is , that

57:20

it would do away with

57:23

these platforms and intermediates

57:26

right Now . The question , then

57:28

, is what

57:31

are peer-to-peer payment

57:33

systems ? Can we

57:35

also think not just only of direct

57:37

payments , but also of redistribution

57:41

of wealth , not

57:44

just on in

57:46

a neoliberal sense , like this

57:49

subject pays another

57:51

subject ? but

57:53

, putting it in a societal

57:56

context which , also

57:59

from the perspective of culture

58:01

and the arts , is incredibly

58:04

important , because it

58:07

is never just solely about

58:09

the survival of

58:12

this or that individual .

58:17

My dream would be that there would be a more robust

58:19

sort of like infrastructure

58:21

for left wing media creators

58:23

to be able to plug into , to have to

58:26

actually create sort of sustainable collective

58:28

rather than because what we're I mean right now . What we

58:30

have is like

58:32

, as what happens in any industry

58:35

, is just sort of like high concentration

58:37

of a few people who gets the

58:39

most money , which is not

58:42

to shame them for getting a lot of

58:44

money , it means they do good work .

58:46

But if you want to have a more resilient

58:48

kind of like risk diversified

58:51

kind of media

58:54

sphere , I guess , then there

58:56

is the question of , or the

58:58

question of , redistribution should be at least and

59:01

this you know

59:03

can be done and that there's

59:05

experience with that by

59:07

setting up larger

59:09

funds that redistribute

59:12

this money , right , and

59:14

so I really

59:16

hope that in the next round

59:18

of the crypto blockchain debate

59:20

, you know , we would just

59:23

come also to the

59:26

founding of a number

59:28

, or a diversity even of

59:31

initiatives , of

59:33

non-profits funds

59:36

that you

59:39

know . Of course , you

59:41

know where would the money for the

59:43

fund come from , right , this

59:45

is an important one , but equally important

59:47

is the question

59:49

of you know how would

59:51

you democratically

59:54

like to redistribution

59:57

, redistribute this

1:00:00

newly acquired wealth

1:00:02

, which , in my understanding

1:00:04

, is always , you know

1:00:06

, common wealth in

1:00:09

essence . You know it's an extraction

1:00:11

of the comments , after

1:00:13

all , right , and so we need

1:00:15

to focus much

1:00:18

more on the creation

1:00:21

of these redistribution

1:00:23

funds yeah , yeah , and I think I

1:00:25

mean for me , it's something that is possible

1:00:27

.

1:00:27

I think what I struggle with is getting

1:00:30

other content creators or people

1:00:32

to to use the tools is quite a difficult

1:00:35

thing yeah

1:00:37

, of course , but you

1:00:39

know , usually with this

1:00:41

kind of stuff we need to just

1:00:44

, you know , launch the

1:00:46

concept and then discuss

1:00:49

it with many , propose

1:00:51

it in many different

1:00:53

forums and

1:00:56

places and then , for sure

1:00:58

, because this is a dynamic field

1:01:00

, you know , and then this is my experience

1:01:03

over the last 40 , 50 years

1:01:05

that

1:01:06

if you , if you , you know

1:01:08

, have an idea and if you put it

1:01:10

out there in the world , and

1:01:12

if you don't just let it , go and

1:01:15

work on it and and create

1:01:17

something around it , that

1:01:21

there will definitely be an

1:01:24

outcome . So you know , this could really

1:01:26

be an optimistic ending

1:01:29

of this , of this podcast

1:01:32

. So you know the

1:01:34

it is really important to

1:01:37

understand that

1:01:39

there are always beginnings

1:01:41

of critical

1:01:43

, speculative concepts , but

1:01:46

that concepts have consequences

1:01:48

and that you know that this

1:01:50

, this talk , is not just

1:01:52

me at talk . If only

1:01:54

we know that . You know , these

1:01:57

days , talk can

1:02:00

and will be immediately translated

1:02:02

into code yeah and then

1:02:05

, yeah , because this is how it , how

1:02:07

it works . Talk has

1:02:10

this inevitable machinic

1:02:13

, you know , aspect

1:02:15

to it these days and

1:02:17

if we do that well , you

1:02:19

know our concepts , critical

1:02:22

concepts that you know

1:02:24

want to create sustainable infrastructures

1:02:27

and support

1:02:30

social movements can

1:02:33

and will be successful nice

1:02:36

.

1:02:36

That was a very optimistic

1:02:39

ending . Maybe I should also plug

1:02:41

at the very end my if you

1:02:43

go to my websites , to TBS

1:02:45

Dow , I have also sort

1:02:47

of as an alternative to Patreon , you are able

1:02:49

to , you know , help fund me

1:02:52

through cryptocurrency . And

1:02:54

then it just uses sort of token gated token

1:02:57

gating in order to unlock bonus

1:02:59

content , for example , and we split

1:03:01

the revenue . Part of it goes to me , part

1:03:03

of it goes to the Dow for people to collectively

1:03:05

decide how they want to redistribute that

1:03:07

money . But yeah , thanks so

1:03:09

much kids for coming on .