0:00

What's up my friends and welcome to the board game

0:02

design lab today We're talking about

0:04

kids games, but for for small kids for

0:06

preschool age kids kids

0:08

in that four five six year old range

0:11

and i'm talking to ilan lee the

0:13

designer the creator the Mastermind

0:16

behind exploding kittens and all

0:18

the games that they've come out with over their last few

0:21

years. I mean they've sold 25 million

0:24

games at this point, which is just absolutely mind-boggling

0:27

and it was so fun talking to ilan about

0:29

His design process he's been working with his daughter

0:32

his four-year-old daughter To bring some

0:34

games to life and bring them to market we

0:36

chat about those games and the problems that they were trying

0:38

to solve Because so many kids games on the market

0:41

are trash They're leftovers from years

0:44

and years gone by the candyland type

0:45

games and they're just not particularly

0:48

Fun for all sorts of different reasons and so ilan

0:50

and his daughter set out to change that they wanted to make

0:52

some games That parents would enjoy

0:55

that wouldn't just feel like these mind-numbing

0:57

activities, but would actually be fun Games,

1:00

so we talked about that design process. We talked

1:02

about manufacturing We talked about marketing and

1:04

all the business side of things as

1:06

well And so if you're interested in designing

1:09

a game like this or do you just want to design

1:11

games? You know with your kids if you have some small children,

1:13

I think you'll learn a lot

1:14

there as well But this is a pretty big

1:17

market also, so even if you're a designer that's like

1:19

no I like to design these big meaty complicated

1:22

heavy games.

1:22

That's cool But there's a lot of money to be

1:25

made Designing games creating games for

1:27

this age group because it it can

1:29

sell a lot of copies So just something to think about from

1:32

a business side

1:32

and it's also fun It's fun to bring laughter

1:35

and joy and happiness to children So,

1:37

you know also that in other news this

1:40

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2:11

other news, this episode is sponsored by Crowdfunding

2:13

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2:16

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2:19

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2:22

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and fill out a contact form today. And

2:51

now, please help me welcome Elon

2:53

Lee. Elon

2:57

Lee, the creator of the video game world. So

3:04

Elon, really excited to have you

3:06

here. I mean, you're a guy that's

3:09

just fun to talk to, man. Because you came into

3:11

this industry adjacent, right?

3:13

You started off in the video game world. Very much. Jumped

3:15

over to board games thinking, hey, you know,

3:18

I got an idea. I'll run a little project.

3:20

It might have a little bit of success. Of course it

3:22

could happen, yeah. And

3:24

then it exploded, so to speak, with

3:27

Exploding Kittens, and turned into this just kind of multi-country,

3:31

you know, booming project of a thing. And

3:33

now it's a brand, and now you've got all these other games. You're signing

3:36

other game designers. You've got a

3:38

pretty decent-sized team. You're in stores

3:41

all over the place. You know, every time we go into Walmart

3:43

or Target, my kids, they see your games, and

3:46

we've got Throw Throw Burrito. We've got Exploding

3:48

Kittens. We've got several other games that you've

3:50

done. So first of all, congratulations for all

3:52

the success. That was so

3:54

well planned out from the beginning. You were like, this

3:56

is my five-year plan. Well planned out. Yes,

4:00

every step of this has been a calculated

4:02

path. Thank you for noticing that. Yeah, definitely definitely

4:07

But now you're switching gears a little bit

4:09

you're going To a different

4:11

market in a lot of ways kind of downstream

4:14

upstream I don't know which part of the stream it's on but you're going

4:16

for Younger kids and not just younger

4:18

kids but like really young kids like four or

4:20

five six year old kids with

4:22

a new kind of Imprint like a almost different

4:24

company. We're gonna talk about that in a minute where you have kitten

4:26

games And you've got all these games you've designed

4:29

with your daughter Who was four

4:31

or five years old as you guys were designing

4:33

and so I'm really excited to just chat about

4:36

Why in the world would you want to do this first

4:38

of all and then how and how do you

4:40

design with a child so young? I have a

4:43

let's see my son just turned five and have

4:45

a two-year-old as well So I

4:47

I know how that brain works Yeah,

4:50

you're gonna you're gonna relate to the misery

4:52

that I'm about to describe in trying

4:54

to design games with a four-year-old So yeah, I'm excited

4:56

to talk looking forward to it This is like the

4:59

epitome of to the meat spit out the bones of like

5:01

trying to figure out What are you really

5:03

saying like my son? He'll like

5:05

the other day I'll give you quick anecdote

5:08

just how chaotic it is with these kids the other

5:10

day. I'm so I work from home I'm in my office.

5:12

I'm working on something. My son comes in and he's got a bag

5:14

like a ziploc bag of coins And

5:17

he says hey, hey daddy. Um, I need

5:19

five dollars in coins. I was like What

5:23

he's I need to count out five I need five

5:25

dollars I was like why he goes I need to

5:27

buy a toy Was it when what

5:30

who said you're gonna buy a toy and you look at he goes I don't know.

5:32

That's a win. When are you going to buy

5:34

this toy and he goes tomorrow? What

5:39

I have no idea what little seed like was planted

5:41

in his brain that told him I need to go

5:43

carry out these steps And and so anyway,

5:46

I can't imagine designing a game and I'm excited to learn

5:48

about how you did it and all the yeah

5:51

I'm excited to say but now I got a match stories

5:53

with you because kids are little aliens

5:55

and it is Really really tough to

5:57

interpret them sometimes I was sitting in my office

6:00

yesterday and my five-year-old, my now

6:02

five-year-old comes downstairs, Avalon, and

6:04

she's holding a bag of white marbles and

6:07

I said, what are those? And she said, they're for you. And

6:09

I said, I don't need any white marbles. And

6:11

she said, they're not white marbles, they're egg

6:13

corns and I painted them white. And

6:15

then she drops the bag on the floor, they explode

6:17

everywhere, she screams, you're welcome and runs

6:20

away. You're

6:22

welcome and runs away is like the epitome of

6:24

these these kids. Yes. They're

6:27

answering questions you didn't know you had, they're

6:29

solving problems you didn't know you you had. And

6:31

now I got a bag of white ink corns in

6:33

case I need those someday. Hey, that's a new

6:35

game component, man. Now that's a new opportunity

6:38

is all that is. And maybe that's

6:40

what my son was saying. He's like, dad, I want to design a game

6:43

where we count out coins and we need

6:45

we need the five. Eventually, he wanted

6:47

a monster truck toy. Oh, yeah. From from

6:50

Walmart. Yeah. Tomorrow. He doesn't

6:52

know what tomorrow means. Like

6:54

there's no concept of time or days. So Oh,

6:57

man, you're really you're hitting the cord

6:59

with me. Yeah. Solidarity,

7:02

man. But let's get into why in

7:04

the world you would want to design these

7:07

kinds of games, you have so many options, right?

7:10

So many different things you could have done exploding kittens,

7:12

their euro game, I mean, you could have done anything, right?

7:15

But you chose to do these kind of preschool

7:17

age games. Why

7:19

is that? Yeah, there's definitely

7:21

a masochistic twist to my brain

7:24

here. What I learned

7:26

is, this is really, really hard. I'm

7:28

so glad I did it before I knew any better. Because

7:31

if I tried it again today, I probably wouldn't do it. But

7:33

at the time, a year ago, my 18 months

7:36

ago, my naive self thought this was a great

7:38

idea. Here was the thought. When

7:40

my daughter turned four, for me, that was a big milestone.

7:42

Because before that, the game she plays

7:45

are really basic, you

7:47

know, it's hide and seek. It's, you

7:49

know, we play airplane to feed her, you know, that silly,

7:52

stupid non games. But when she turned

7:54

four, I thought, Okay, so you're not a three year

7:56

old anymore, you're finally old enough, let's go to the store we're

7:58

going to buy after games, boxed

8:01

games, we're gonna take them home, we're gonna sit them

8:03

down, open them up, play together,

8:05

this is gonna be great. And we

8:07

did that. We went to the store, we bought like five or six

8:09

games, came home, played them one

8:11

after another after another, and they were

8:14

awful. Like just the

8:17

worst, most boring

8:19

crap I have ever played. If I have to play,

8:22

I'm just gonna say the actual names.

8:24

If I have to play Candyland again, I am going

8:26

to kill myself. These

8:28

games, you might

8:30

as well not be there, right? Spin a spinner,

8:33

move your piece, and then the other player does the same

8:35

thing. Spin a spinner, move your piece. Why

8:38

are you playing? There's no point, a computer

8:40

might as well do that. There's no reason for you to be in

8:42

the room. You're not making decisions, you're not making choices, you're

8:44

not learning anything, you're not competing, you're

8:46

not collaborating, you're doing nothing. And every

8:50

game was like that, and I got so frustrated

8:52

and was having a miserable

8:55

time. And we get to the end of the game, and of course my,

8:57

you know, bright-eyed, wide-eyed daughter

8:59

wants to play again at the end of the game, and she looks at me

9:02

and she says, Daddy, can we play again? I'm like,

9:05

let's move on to the next one instead. And we try the next

9:07

one, and we get to the end, Daddy, can we play again? I'm like,

9:10

oh no, let's go to the next one. And we got

9:12

through the whole list that way, and we finally got

9:14

to the last game, and I said, look, I just

9:16

don't want to play again. I'm really sorry. These are terrible.

9:19

And she said, she

9:21

said, what's wrong? You know, we're having so much fun, what's

9:23

wrong? And I tried to explain to her the

9:26

problem I was having with these games, but of course she's

9:28

not interested in why

9:30

I'm having a bad time. She's interested,

9:33

like I've trained her and taught her her whole life

9:35

to fix it. So when I finished explaining

9:38

why these games were bad, she said, cool, let's

9:40

fix it. And that's really

9:42

when my eyes got wide, and I thought, oh,

9:45

let's fix it. This will actually be really

9:47

fun. Let's fix it. And so for 18

9:50

months, we sat there scribbling with

9:52

markers and dice and construction

9:54

paper and little game pieces, and we

9:57

designed together 12 games. And

10:01

it took a long time. It was a huge

10:04

learning curve. She

10:06

learned from me. I learned a lot from her. And

10:09

at the end of that, those 12 games were,

10:12

you know, not great, but four of them were

10:15

kind of incredible because they

10:17

did everything I wanted a game to do. She

10:20

was having a blast. She got to see some of her

10:22

own artwork in the game. Like, it was really

10:25

beautiful to build something, try

10:28

it out, watch it fail, try

10:30

it again, watch it fail, try it again, and

10:32

keep iterating, making it better and better and better. And

10:34

at the end of that process, we had these four games,

10:37

and all of them passed, one very important test, which

10:39

was when we were finished playing those games, she

10:41

would look at me and say, Daddy, can we play again? And my

10:43

answer was, Hell yes. Let's play

10:45

again. I can't wait to play again. These are awesome games.

10:49

So we really set

10:51

out just to fix the problem. But

10:53

along the way, I realized

10:55

that this was kind

10:58

of maybe how

11:00

the founders of Pixar felt when

11:03

they started making movies. I will bet there

11:05

was at least a moment sort of like this, where

11:07

they looked at the movie industry for kids

11:09

and said, this sucks, like

11:12

kids are having fun, but the parents who have

11:14

to take their kids to those movie theaters are not having

11:16

any fun. So what if we change that? What

11:18

if we make movies that are fun for kids and adults?

11:21

And they then went on to proceed and, you know,

11:23

change the entire film industry forever.

11:27

I felt like maybe there's an opportunity

11:29

to do the same thing. I'm having fun

11:31

with these games. My daughter's having fun with these games. We

11:33

made them together. For the

11:35

first time, I'm looking forward to playing

11:38

a boxed game with my daughter. I

11:40

will bet other adults, other parents,

11:42

other grownups are going to have just as much fun. So why

11:44

don't we take this show on the road? Why

11:46

don't we take this to retail? We took

11:48

it to Target. We pitched those four

11:50

games, showed them why they were so much fun.

11:53

And Target said, not only do we want

11:55

these four games, we're going to give you

11:57

your own shelf. You're going to control

11:59

an entire game. shelf in the kids section to

12:02

try to change the world and

12:05

that was just a few months ago and now they're out

12:07

selling it's incredible man that's

12:10

awesome all right so a lot to unpack there I want to go

12:12

back to the prison right

12:14

where you're looking around I think this is where a lot of creative

12:16

people a lot of inventors come from they look around

12:18

and they can't find the thing that they want and

12:21

so they just go well I guess I'll make it myself

12:23

and it's probably good that they don't know what all is gonna

12:25

take in the sacrifices and all that

12:27

because they probably wouldn't start from the beginning but then

12:30

you you set out to do that but let's get into maybe some

12:32

of the deeper issues I heard you say these

12:34

games aren't really games are like activities there's

12:37

no choice there's no collaboration you know

12:39

they're not fun for adults so they those are obviously

12:41

some of the kind of bigger problems can

12:43

we go a little bit deeper though where maybe some of the

12:45

other issues or some of the deeper issues you've

12:48

noticed in these games that

12:50

then we can kind of unpack as we as

12:53

we then start talking about your answers in just

12:55

a minute so I

12:57

really think that all good

12:59

games

13:02

in specifically kids game here's

13:04

my criteria for a good kids game

13:07

one

13:09

the game should be a tool set

13:12

for the people playing to entertain each

13:14

other this is our mantra

13:16

at exploding kittens as well right we do not

13:18

make entertaining games we make games

13:20

that make the players entertaining and

13:22

that's really important and for kids

13:24

games doubly so if I'm

13:27

gonna sit down with my daughter with any of

13:29

my kids with her friends that

13:31

game must be a tool set to

13:34

make us enjoy each other otherwise we might

13:36

as well be staring at a screen like I don't

13:38

want to be passive I want to be active and I want

13:40

the game to help us entertain each other the

13:43

games we're not doing that at all the

13:45

second set of criteria for me is the

13:48

game must teach the

13:50

kid something and

13:54

those games certainly weren't doing that learning how to spin a

13:56

spinner and move a piece around there is no

13:58

sense of mastery there at all you're not going to get better

14:00

at that task. And if you do, who cares? So

14:03

I'm really, it was really

14:06

important to me that every one of the games had

14:09

something that my kid could walk away from

14:11

and get better and better and better at that

14:13

thing. Until

14:16

we get to the third point, which is,

14:19

I don't want to cheat to lose,

14:21

I should not have to let

14:23

my kid when I don't want to make

14:26

bad moves, unstrategic moves,

14:28

non-optimal moves, just so that my kid

14:30

can win. My kid, maybe not at first,

14:33

but certainly by game three or four, should

14:35

be able to get good enough at this

14:38

game that she's just going to beat

14:40

me because she is a better player than I am. And

14:42

that is hard. That's

14:45

really hard to do and certainly

14:47

hard, if not impossible, to find

14:50

on the existing games market, at least at

14:52

the time before our games came out.

14:56

And then finally, for me,

14:58

the perfect kids game that none of these

15:01

could do very well is when

15:03

I'm not around, my kid should

15:05

be able to teach her friends how to play

15:07

that game without any problem at all. And

15:10

that really speaks to the simplicity, but

15:12

the hidden complexity. The

15:15

complexity can't be right there on the surface, otherwise

15:17

she's not going to be able to pass it on to her

15:19

friends, or she's not going to be able to

15:21

tell her grandparents how to play. She's not going to be able to pull

15:23

the thing down off the shelves when visitors come over and

15:25

say, let's play a game, I'm going to teach you how.

15:27

Because that's the most empowering thing in the world

15:30

for her, for any kid, is

15:32

to relay that mastery,

15:34

that knowledge onto somebody else

15:37

and speak from a sense of authority. From

15:39

a kid's perspective, they so rarely get to do

15:42

that. Everything's always being taught to them and

15:44

told to them. But if you can switch those

15:46

tables around and make it so that the kid

15:48

gets to say, I'm the expert, I'm the master,

15:51

and now I'm going to share it with you, you're going to have as much

15:53

fun as I'm having. It's

15:55

so empowering. And it's such a beautiful moment. And

15:57

none of the games were doing that. For

16:00

me, as long as we could hit each

16:02

and every one of those milestones, each

16:04

and every one of those criteria, um,

16:06

that's when I knew we had

16:09

four completed games. Yeah. Very

16:11

cool. So I love that last point, especially

16:13

cause you're building confidence. You're empowering a child.

16:16

This is another one of the skills, honestly,

16:19

that you're, this game is helping to bring about

16:21

with this child. But what are some of those other things?

16:23

Cause you're talking about a game that teaches something, but we're not

16:25

talking about educational games. Quote unquote. It's

16:27

not like you're going to learn how to do two plus two is four.

16:29

Not necessarily. So what are some of these skills

16:32

that you wanted to really lean into and

16:34

bring out in your kid, in the games

16:36

you did or in games you want to see down the

16:38

road? But what are some of these like higher level skills? So,

16:41

uh, one example

16:43

is we have one of our games is called the best

16:45

worst ice cream. And all

16:48

that the kids are doing is they're trying

16:50

to fill up their ice cream cones with,

16:53

uh, one, uh, uh, 10 scoops

16:55

of ice cream before anybody else can first one to get 10

16:57

scoops of ice cream wins. There's a deck

16:59

of cards in the middle of the table. Each one is

17:01

a scoop of ice cream. Each

17:04

card you have to earn. And

17:06

the way you earn it is before

17:08

you draw a card, you get to look

17:10

at the back of the card. The back of the card has three

17:12

flavors on it. You know, the front of the card is one of those

17:14

three flavors. There's a whole bunch of

17:16

cards spread out around the table for reasons that I won't

17:19

get into, but the kid is trying to say,

17:21

all right. This one is either red, green,

17:23

or blue. But before I turn it over, I'm going to guess,

17:25

is it red, green, or blue? And I don't mean red, green, or blue.

17:27

I mean, is it hot dog flavored or stinky

17:30

cheese flavored or blue, you know, blueberry

17:32

flavored ice cream? Okay. I made my guess.

17:35

I'm going to turn it over. If I was right, I get

17:37

to collect all the cards of that flavor and load

17:39

up my ice cream cone. If I was wrong, it stays

17:41

in the middle of the table and somebody else might gain it on

17:43

their next turn. When

17:46

a kid starts playing a game like that, all they're

17:48

doing is they're guessing one out of three. It's literally

17:50

a guessing game. Fine. We can start

17:52

that way. I'm just, you're just going to learn the mechanics that

17:54

way. You're going to learn it's one of these three things. Guess

17:57

which one? You were either right. You got a one in three chance.

17:59

You're right. You're wrong.

17:59

off we go.

18:02

But halfway through the first game, what

18:04

kids start to realize is this

18:07

is not an even betting system.

18:09

It's not red or green or blue. If

18:11

I look at the table for a second, if

18:14

I guess red, there's already six red

18:16

cards out there, meaning if this one's red, I'm

18:18

gonna get seven scoops of ice cream because

18:20

I'm gonna collect all the red ones. Whereas if

18:22

I get blue, there's no blue out there and even

18:24

if I'm right, I'm only gonna gain this

18:27

one scoop of ice cream. So, all

18:30

things considered, I can guess red,

18:32

green or blue. I'm gonna go for red because

18:35

the risk reward is much, much

18:37

higher on red than it is for

18:39

green or for blue. I'm not telling

18:42

a kid any of this ever. I would never imagine

18:44

telling a kid ever any of this, but you

18:46

start to see the gears turning. You start to see

18:48

them learn, wait a second,

18:51

these aren't even. They look even, but they're actually

18:54

not even. I'm gonna do this instead of that.

18:56

And it's not like they're computing math. It's

18:58

not like they've got a pencil and paper out. It's

19:00

all very visual. They're looking at the table. They see

19:02

an ocean of red, no blue, no

19:05

green, which you're gonna guess, I'm gonna guess red

19:07

for this turn. And it's so cool

19:09

to see these little statisticians

19:12

start to develop over

19:15

this very simple, silly, fun

19:17

ice cream game. And I'm not

19:19

teaching them that. They're just figuring that out

19:22

as the game goes along. And by game three, they

19:24

are, my daughter at least, is absolutely

19:27

destroying me at this game because she has

19:29

figured out the odds. I never taught her, but

19:32

she knows exactly the right guess on a

19:34

per card basis. Yeah, very

19:36

cool. And really thinking through how can you

19:38

teach problem solving, which I feel like is maybe

19:40

the most important thing we can teach kids, especially

19:43

nowadays. Like they're coming into a world where you don't

19:45

need to know a lot of stuff that we were taught

19:47

in school because it was fun facts and you have

19:49

a supercomputer in your pocket. And if you

19:51

need the answer to a fun fact, there

19:53

it is. Right. And so problem solving, right? How

19:56

to look at, in this case, a table and

19:58

figure out what is the best answer. answer to

20:00

this question based on what's in front

20:02

of me. And it's ice cream. So it makes

20:04

sense, but it's certainly ice cream. To

20:08

be the, I don't know, the

20:10

joining factor of a lot of your games. They're ridiculous.

20:12

They're ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. That's

20:15

exactly it. Cause you're never going to get a kid to get excited

20:17

about statistics. If you're talking about numbers,

20:20

you're not even going to get them excited about it if you're talking about

20:22

colors. But if you're talking about,

20:25

do you think this is hot dog flavored

20:27

ice cream or stinky cheese flavored ice

20:29

cream, what's your best guess? Suddenly

20:31

they have an opinion and they care a whole lot about

20:34

that. Yeah. And I love that it's emergent.

20:36

Again, like you're saying, you didn't have to sit down and

20:38

have a flow chart and a Venn diagram and say, here's

20:41

how this game works. It emerges

20:43

naturally through the gameplay, which

20:45

is really, really cool. And that's something I love just in games in general,

20:48

right? The emergent storytelling, the emergent

20:50

gameplay that it's not in

20:52

the rulebook. You just kind of figure it out. It's one of

20:54

my favorite things about games and to try

20:56

to finally unlock that in games

20:59

made for kids, made for ages four and up, that

21:02

was really tough to do, but oh my

21:04

goodness, so rewarding to finally hit it. Yeah.

21:06

So

21:07

before we get into like, or actually we might even

21:09

do that a little bit as far as you're more specifics about each individual

21:12

game, because I want to talk about each individual one and the problems you were

21:14

seeing and then the answers you were coming up with or

21:16

your daughter was coming up with, but let's talk about that designing

21:18

with a four year old. Okay.

21:21

It's like herding cats. It's like, like

21:24

you were saying, trying to decipher some ancient

21:26

language that has been lost to time. So

21:28

tell me about that process and how you were

21:30

able to glean information

21:33

and ideas from this

21:35

enigma of a brain and

21:37

turn it into something actionable that

21:39

you can make into a game. Yeah. I think

21:41

the first and most important lesson

21:44

for me on this, this long

21:46

and windy journey was I only

21:49

have 15 minutes at a time. If

21:52

I try to design a game for

21:54

an hour with my daughter, the last 45 minutes

21:56

of that are going to be useless because she's

21:59

often silly. mode by then, right? She's intentionally

22:02

just making fart noises and throwing

22:04

cards around or hiding cards, so I can't find them anymore.

22:07

Like, but the first 15 minutes

22:10

are really productive. And as long as I can

22:13

focus on those 15 minutes, what

22:15

she likes, what she doesn't like, what ideas she has,

22:17

what I can learn from her, what's frustrating

22:19

her, what she needs to see to be

22:22

happy at that moment, the things she

22:24

invents, those all happen

22:26

in those 15 minutes. And those are

22:28

really, really important to focus on. So that was

22:30

the first lesson is like, these

22:32

aren't adults, don't schedule an hour schedule 15

22:35

minutes, all you're gonna get and you can do like maybe

22:37

two, maybe three of those a day, but not

22:40

the duration is really the issue there. The second

22:43

thing, so learning from my daughter, I'll

22:45

give you a great example. So we have a game

22:47

out there called I want my teeth

22:50

back. And designing this game

22:52

with her was, for me,

22:54

probably the most interesting game. There's

22:57

two versions of the game, one that's out there right

22:59

now, which is great. I love

23:01

it. It's tested so well. But there's another

23:04

version that we actually changed after

23:06

the first one went out the door for a very particular reason.

23:09

And for me, it was learning, I wasn't listening to listening

23:11

to her closely enough until after

23:13

the game shipped. So I'll

23:16

give you the example. I want my teeth

23:18

back has a spinner in it.

23:20

And it's kind of like a Wheel of Fortune like spinner,

23:22

the kids get to spin the spinner, it

23:24

lands in a certain place. And in version

23:27

one, it was either jackpot or no

23:29

jackpot. So the jackpot areas on the

23:31

wheel were very small, everything else was just blank.

23:34

And you had to buy the right

23:37

to spin the spinner. So the whole game is collect

23:39

cards, when you think you have enough cards, when you think

23:41

the jackpot is big enough, use

23:43

your cards to spin the spinner and maybe when the jackpot

23:46

first one to get 10 of these teeth wins

23:49

the game. It was really fun.

23:52

But she kept complaining about something in

23:54

this game that I kept ignoring, she

23:56

kept saying, I want to win more.

23:58

And

23:59

I kept saying

23:59

But don't worry, you know, that's that's

24:02

actually this game. This game is all about

24:04

odds, right? You're computing when do

24:06

you spin the spinner? What you're not all

24:08

you're usually gonna fail at the spinner so the more

24:11

spins the better when are you going

24:13

to spin the spinner and She

24:15

kept saying like but I want to win more and

24:19

The game went out just like that and it's really

24:21

fun. It's actually one of our top sellers. It's a really fun

24:23

game

24:24

but That

24:27

that noise kept echoing

24:29

in my head like what do you mean? You want to win more?

24:31

What do you and suddenly I realized

24:33

like The idea that

24:35

the spinner has any spaces at all

24:37

on it that aren't when is

24:40

a problem for a kid Because for

24:42

me as an adult I can understand the difference between win

24:44

and a loss and I'm gonna actually compute

24:46

those odds but for her more

24:48

valuable is Win a

24:50

little versus win a lot but no

24:52

such thing as win zero And

24:55

so we changed the game so that every

24:57

space on the spinner is a win but

25:00

there's very small spaces that are huge

25:02

winners and now

25:05

instead of using your cards to spin the spinner you

25:07

use your cards to upgrade the spinner to

25:09

take a new overlay put It on top of the

25:11

spinner and now the giant wind conditions

25:13

are even bigger Spend more cards

25:16

and you can put another overlay on top of that and now

25:18

they're gigantic. It's actually 50 50 massive

25:21

jackpot and That

25:24

little change Making it so that I'd

25:27

listen to her when she says I want to win more

25:29

because what she's actually saying is losing is no Fun

25:31

as long as losing is part of this game. I'm actually not

25:34

interested in it That doesn't mean you have

25:36

to break the game. That doesn't mean the game is a non-starter

25:38

what it means is I had to

25:40

train myself to really listen to her and learn from

25:42

her

25:43

that

25:44

I can get everything I need out of this

25:46

game from the game mechanics if

25:48

I change it from win versus loss to

25:51

Big win versus small win and as soon

25:53

as I made that change

25:55

Oh my god, that game is absolutely

25:57

of all the games. Absolutely our favorite

25:59

one

25:59

Of the bunch now, but it

26:02

took that little tweak in order to get there

26:04

Yeah So often it's all about how

26:06

you frame the mechanism Right

26:09

and how you make people feel based on the framing

26:11

and you don't even necessarily have to change the mechanism Which

26:14

is like you're saying you didn't change the mechanism. You just kind of like

26:16

put a different overlay You like you just kind of changed

26:18

how it felt. Yeah, I was talking

26:20

to Jeff Anglestein Recently and he

26:22

has a racing game where the original

26:25

design was things that you could

26:27

happen during the game and it would cause your your car

26:29

on the board to go back spaces and

26:33

People hated it. They're like, oh it just feels so

26:35

bad And so he flipped it and he

26:37

reframed it and when those exact same moments

26:39

happen Instead of your car going back spaces

26:42

every other car on the board goes forward

26:45

spaces. So smart It's

26:47

the same same nothing has changed mechanically.

26:49

Yeah, but the feeling yeah totally different

26:52

Just yeah, just having into that especially with kids because

26:55

kids are really good at telling

26:57

you their emotion, right? They're though.

26:59

They can't explain why they have no idea what's

27:01

going on. They can't articulate, you know I'm

27:03

angry because but they can now articulate

27:06

angry Really well and

27:08

listening to that. What are some other things? You noticed

27:10

as far as your daughter's emotions and

27:12

you could kind of maybe watch her or listen to her

27:15

During play that you could kind of pick up on

27:17

and then turn that into design. Yeah

27:21

We had one of the games

27:23

that didn't make the cut which also

27:25

really required me to pay close attention to

27:27

her emotions was it

27:30

was a last player standing game and It

27:33

kind of functions. It was sort of like exploding

27:35

kittens jr. So exploding kittens is also a last

27:37

player standing game last player

27:39

in the game wins the game and we we we

27:41

worked on a very very simple version of

27:44

that for kids and That

27:46

game frustrated her like nothing

27:48

else and I was like

27:50

What

27:51

what is it about like tell me what and she's

27:53

like I just I just hate it when

27:55

somebody else wins this game And I said

27:58

that doesn't make sense to me all the games that

28:01

we've made. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

28:03

And you said, no, but in this one, somebody else wins.

28:05

And I said, that

28:08

doesn't make sense. That's, that is true for literally

28:11

every game we're working on. And

28:13

after a lot of discussion and me trying

28:16

very hard to train myself, like I need to pay

28:18

attention. She's not going to be able to articulate

28:20

the source. So I'm going to have to do that work. Let

28:22

me figure out the work. What I realized

28:24

is there's a difference

28:26

between a someone

28:29

winning the game

28:30

versus somebody winning the

28:33

game and everyone else losing.

28:36

And that difference means

28:39

for kids, you can never have a last

28:41

player standing game.

28:42

You can have a winner, someone can suddenly win.

28:45

But everyone else has to think,

28:47

I am not a loser. Because if they think

28:49

I am a loser, that's when they get frustrated.

28:53

And for kids, that is a really

28:55

visceral response. Like, they

28:57

can't tell you why they can't tell you the difference.

29:00

Me as the grown up designer had to figure out the difference.

29:03

But it was so eye opening. Like, that

29:05

was one of the ones I wrote into our mantra

29:07

for all games. Like there can be a

29:09

winner, but there can never be losers. That's

29:11

really interesting. How would you approach it from

29:14

like a like a Jenga style game, where

29:16

you kind of have one loser and

29:18

then everybody else at the table wins? How do

29:20

you think that would would work? Yeah,

29:22

I think what you would have to do to make that like

29:24

truly like a four and up game.

29:28

I think what you would have to do is say,

29:31

when that tower collapses,

29:35

nobody loses, but

29:37

maybe the last person before you who

29:40

successfully removed a piece wins. Right?

29:42

And it's just that it's the same game, same

29:45

events happened. It's just a slight reframing

29:47

to say, you didn't lose, nobody

29:50

lost. But little Timmy won.

29:52

Let's all celebrate. Let's clap for him. Let's reset.

29:54

Let's play again, because probably next time somebody else

29:56

is going to win, but nobody lost.

29:59

And that's...

29:59

Such an important difference for four-year-olds.

30:02

Yeah, that's interesting I wonder also if you could just

30:05

reframe it not in winning or losing But

30:07

just in an action right so for instance whoever

30:09

knocked down the tower they have to pick up

30:12

the pieces Yeah, there's a great.

30:14

There's a consequence right, but it's not because you lost It's just because

30:16

you knocked over the tower You know if you make a mess you clean

30:18

it up That's just you know again skill building that we're

30:20

talking about but you know not even framing

30:23

a game winning or losing We're just playing we're just

30:25

having fun here this leads into one of

30:27

our other games called my parents might

30:29

be Martians and This

30:32

one had a very complicated history

30:34

with us as we tried to figure out

30:36

what it means to win what it means to lose So

30:39

this game actually started out as an

30:41

exploding kittens game It's

30:43

a we have a game out there called poetry for Neanderthals

30:46

Simplest game team based game two teams when

30:48

it's your turn you draw a card You're trying to

30:50

get the other people on your team to guess the word on

30:53

the card The only rule is you can

30:55

only speak using single syllable words

30:57

so immediately you sound like a caveman You

30:59

have no choice your grandma sounds like a caveman no

31:02

no say in the matter. It's funny It's

31:04

ridiculous, and I thought okay. Well. Let's play

31:06

this with kids like what if we don't

31:08

change anything I'm gonna sit down with my daughter We're gonna

31:10

play this game, and it was horrible

31:13

like she couldn't figure out what a syllable was she couldn't figure

31:15

out when she violated The rules she couldn't figure out when she was

31:17

following the rules that That

31:19

notion of speech was just

31:22

a little bit beyond her grasp and so

31:24

at first It was like well. This just isn't gonna work

31:27

We're not gonna play this game, and then my

31:29

daughter said you know what if

31:32

I don't have to Speak

31:34

like what don't I what if I don't have to guess see

31:37

any of the clues What if you just do the clues

31:39

daddy because you're really good at that and I'll just be the

31:41

guesser I'll be the guesser for the whole game because

31:43

that's really fun

31:45

And then I started thinking about that like oh

31:47

wait a second. There's something really really

31:50

powerful here So I got my wife

31:52

and we sat down and we said okay new game

31:55

There are three teams There's

31:58

your mommy. She's one team There's me, I'm

32:00

another team, and Avalon, the kids, we

32:03

actually had two of her friends over at the time, all the kids

32:05

are on one team. The kids are the human

32:08

team, the adults are the alien team, but there's

32:10

two different alien teams, and we're all competing. Here's

32:12

what we're gonna do, one by one, the aliens,

32:15

the adults, are gonna draw a card and

32:17

try to get the kids to guess

32:19

these words. And then when mommy

32:21

alien is done, then daddy alien is gonna

32:23

get to go. And I'm gonna try to get through as many cards as I can,

32:26

and then it's mommy, and then it's daddy, and the aliens are gonna

32:28

go back and forth, but the kids, they're guessing,

32:30

they're nonstop. Spotlight is always

32:33

on them, guess, guess, guess, guess, guess, and we'll see who

32:35

wins. Well, guess what? You know who

32:37

wins? The kids always win, because they're earning double

32:39

the points. They're earning for both mommy and daddy.

32:41

They only earn points. This

32:43

game is actually a game between

32:45

the two grownups, or the three grownups, or however

32:47

many grownups you have. And what they're doing is they're hacking

32:50

the kids. They're trying as hard as they

32:52

can to say, the word is broccoli.

32:54

The best way for me to hack my kid into saying

32:56

the word broccoli, using only single syllable words, I'll

32:59

say like, this thing you ate for meal

33:03

last night. It's green, it's

33:05

green, you eat, you not like, you eat, right,

33:07

and she's, oh, last night, dinner, broccoli, broccoli,

33:10

right? And she says broccoli. But, so

33:12

my wife looks at me, right, and then she's like, well,

33:14

I'm gonna have to do better than that. And so when she looks

33:17

at her card now, she's trying to hack the kids in a completely

33:19

different way. The parents are

33:22

competing for second place. We're

33:24

actually competing to win the game. We're playing our own completely

33:27

separate, non-symmetrical game.

33:30

It's an asynchronous game with the kids, right?

33:32

The kids are playing their own game. They're always gonna

33:34

win. The adults are competing in this other thing.

33:37

We don't mind if one of us loses, because

33:39

we know we're playing this other game. The

33:42

kids want to win. They're always gonna win. They're

33:44

earning the double points. It was this really,

33:47

really beautiful moment when we realized

33:50

we could put two different games in this box,

33:52

and the kids are never gonna realize it's two different games.

33:55

They're just gonna think, oh, we're really good at this. We

33:57

always win. Yeah, I think that's something that a

33:59

designer can really take. tap into in the

34:01

notion of do you do

34:03

you need just different rules for adults versus

34:06

kids like is that one way that an adult

34:08

can play as hard as they can like play to win

34:11

but the game still be fair because they're

34:13

on different rule sets it's almost like root

34:16

or you know it's like some of these really you know asymmetrical

34:18

games but then you have one game or

34:21

one player one team one faction that's

34:23

just so simple that a child

34:25

can play it but at the same time they still have

34:27

you know an equal chance to win it's something to think

34:30

about lately I've got a game coming out soon called card clash

34:32

and it's a very simple 1v1 you know

34:34

I've got my hero and playing cards very

34:37

simple game but there's a rating

34:39

system of one star up to five and

34:42

I like the five star characters I like the complicated

34:44

the combos the crazy stuff that's going on

34:47

but my you know ten-year-old twelve-year-old

34:49

fourteen-year-old they can play the one to two

34:51

three star characters have a great time right

34:54

it's simpler you know but there's an even

34:56

playing field and they can beat me and I can beat them and we all

34:59

we don't need nobody feels like they have to just like yeah

35:01

whatever I'll let them win love it so love it I'm gonna

35:03

think about I love that yeah I've

35:07

the the the sophisticated

35:09

the hidden sophistication

35:13

in game design is what just makes me so

35:15

happy and this

35:17

was the first time I'd gotten to apply it to a kids

35:19

game so that made me doubly happy because I didn't even

35:21

think that was possible any any other thoughts on

35:24

ways to do this or maybe some of the other games that

35:26

you've been working on that had

35:28

this idea where you've got these kind of two different

35:30

rule says two different things I'll tell you about one

35:33

that we haven't actually released yet you're that you're the

35:35

first person I will tell about this because

35:38

I'm very excited about it we we

35:41

wanted to build a game my

35:44

daughter like all kids is

35:46

obsessed with candy and

35:49

we wanted to build a game that involved candy so

35:52

there's no food in the box we're not gonna go down

35:54

that crazy route but there is a really clever

35:56

mechanism by which you

35:59

are trying to get the most candy. Whoever

36:01

can get the most candy wins

36:03

the game and gets to eat the candy, which

36:05

is a nice thing for kids. What

36:08

I realized in designing

36:10

this game is we

36:14

can tweak this in a really clever way.

36:17

I worked with a very good friend of mine, a designer

36:19

at our company named Ken Gruel, who the

36:23

more we test it, he's got kids as well, right? And so the more

36:25

we keep testing this with our kids and collecting feedback,

36:28

we realized that we can start tweaking the candy.

36:31

It doesn't have to be gummy bears anymore,

36:33

right? It can now be almonds and they're just

36:36

as excited. We're starting to experiment

36:38

with like carrot sticks and they're just as excited.

36:41

And we can kind of tweak

36:44

the props in the game, the

36:46

rewards in the game, because they're so

36:48

hooked on the actual gameplay and

36:51

doing better and achieving mastery. And there's a very

36:53

clever physical aspect to this game where

36:55

they have to, it's a reflex game, right? How

36:57

quickly can you press this thing? Can you press it faster

36:59

than anybody else? And that's the way you steal snacks.

37:03

If you can get better at that than anybody else,

37:05

you'll earn faster than anybody else and you'll win the game.

37:08

Our kids are now so obsessed with

37:10

this game that they no longer care that

37:12

it's candy. They will now play for anything

37:15

at all, including carrot sticks and broccoli,

37:17

just so that they can win this game, get better

37:20

at it and look forward to playing again. Man, that's a heck

37:22

of a hook. When you talk about marketing to parents, this

37:25

game gets your kid to eat vegetables. Like what? Yeah,

37:27

seriously. Yeah, we're still working on the name. I think

37:29

we're going to call it snack face, which I'm so

37:32

though the spinners, the little mechanical thing

37:34

and is going to be this rotating face that I'm very

37:36

excited

37:37

about. Nice.

37:38

Along the same lines. I was working on a game

37:40

years ago that my thought was

37:42

I want to play like a dungeon crawl game with

37:45

my kids. Right? So candy makes sense.

37:47

And so it was called candy crawl and all the enemies

37:49

were like, you know, these evil gummy bears. Like there's all this kind of

37:51

like candy related things, but

37:53

then your health, you would play

37:56

it with red M&Ms. And

37:58

whenever you took damage, you would eat. M&M

38:00

right so damage was delicious, so you didn't get

38:03

as upset. You know if that's good thing like you didn't

38:05

lose because you got to eat You know

38:07

your character beautiful Beautiful

38:10

and so coming up with those little things again to

38:12

make kids Or anybody not

38:14

feel as bad for losing

38:16

or you know getting damaged or whatever

38:19

But also just finding ways to intersect

38:22

okay What do kids enjoy like

38:24

we already talked about kids are ridiculous so these games

38:26

are ridiculous They have ridiculous names ridiculous themes,

38:28

and they're kind of out there and crazy and

38:30

and speaking of which let's talk about the other one On the

38:32

list hurry up chicken butt so

38:35

Again a funny title got funny

38:38

art funny mechanics things like but tell me about that game

38:40

And kind of where or how it came to you to be all

38:42

right, so have you all right? Here's how you play hurry

38:44

up chicken, but this one

38:48

was So

38:50

I designed this as me my daughter and

38:52

Brian Spence who also designed a thrift

38:55

rope Rito and The

38:57

challenge here was can we come up with a game?

39:00

that is essentially hot

39:02

potato like how do we make hot potato more interesting

39:04

and After

39:07

so many iterations what we finally came up with was

39:09

all right. There's this cute little chicken

39:12

That's a translucent plastic and inside

39:16

is a dye and the dye. There's

39:18

no words It just has six different colors, and

39:20

we're gonna deal out some cards in the middle

39:23

of the table in each card has a different

39:25

color Chicken clucks clucks

39:28

faster and faster and faster and faster until eventually it

39:30

screams You don't want to be holding the chicken

39:32

when it screams because then the player

39:35

right before you wins the game So don't

39:38

have the chicken when it screams in other words pass the

39:40

chicken as fast as you can The only rules for passing

39:42

the chicken are while it's clucking in your hand shake

39:45

it and now the dye is gonna land

39:47

on a color Look at the cards in the middle you

39:49

have to do the activity with that color

39:51

on it five jumping jacks run around

39:53

the circle twice Run away and touch a

39:55

spoon and come back whatever the ridiculous

39:58

silly funny challenges You

40:00

have to do it as fast as you can, and when you've completed

40:02

it, you pass the chicken to the next player. This

40:04

continues until the chicken screams,

40:07

whoever's holding it, the player right before them wins

40:09

the game. That's it. It's really, really

40:11

simple. What we've

40:13

figured out about this game in such

40:16

a delightful way is... This,

40:18

by the way, is right now... Oh,

40:21

it's our absolute number one selling

40:24

kids game. It is the number

40:26

one selling kids game in Canada.

40:28

It is the number one new

40:30

kids game at Target. It is out

40:35

of this world. It is just doing so, so

40:37

well, and I think there's really three

40:39

important reasons. One is it's a great game

40:41

and people are talking about it. Two, it has a really

40:44

silly name that feels a little

40:47

bit forbidden to kids.

40:49

Am I allowed to say butt? It's hurry up, chicken. But it's

40:51

right there, so I guess I'm allowed to say it. That

40:54

feel is really nice for kids. And then three

40:57

is it

41:00

has a window on the

41:02

front of the box so that you can see the

41:04

chicken. And you can see, yes,

41:06

it's a game, but there's a toy in here

41:08

as well. And it's physical and it's adorable

41:11

and it's going to be so much fun. And when you flip

41:13

over the box, we can explain to you how to play in five

41:15

seconds. And that's it. And

41:19

that kind of combination of things,

41:22

on top of being my daughter's now second

41:24

favorite game, she still likes I want my teeth back

41:26

as her favorite. But on

41:29

top of it being just a really, really good

41:31

game, those things

41:33

have come together in this really beautiful

41:35

way that is making this game just fly off of shelves.

41:38

And as you're describing it, it also sounds very

41:40

talkable, so to speak, where it's

41:42

easy to do a very quick video

41:45

online of people of influencers doing

41:47

ridiculous things. And it's funny and it's cute

41:49

and it's charming. And also, also, by

41:51

the way, you can go buy it here, right? Like most

41:53

board games don't lend themselves to that. Most board games

41:56

are kind of gray or beige,

41:58

you know, they're on a table. There's all this. stuff going on

42:01

the players look like they're in pain as they play

42:03

because they're their brains are contorting and Jim that

42:05

you know through a minimal gymnastics and

42:07

it's not twitchable it's not tick-tockable

42:09

it's just not interesting from a

42:12

visual you know video standpoint versus

42:14

what you just described which like leans

42:16

right into that yeah it's just joy in a box

42:19

it's just so so lovely and

42:21

yeah we've just found

42:23

that you know I say that one of our mantras here

42:26

one of our rules for kids games is you should

42:28

not cheat to lose right you can't let

42:30

your kid win and at first I was really

42:32

worried about that I was like well I can probably do five

42:35

jumping jacks faster than my kid I can really run around the

42:37

circle fast in my kid no I can't

42:40

holy crap can I not do that

42:42

they are so much faster they are so

42:45

much better a lot of it is just because they

42:47

can get up and sit down faster than my creaky knees

42:49

can but like jumping jacks

42:52

kid will kick your ass at that activity you

42:54

go try it is nuts how good they are

42:56

that's a good thing to think about is like what our

42:58

kids naturally better than adults

43:01

at and then how do you lean into that and make kids games based

43:03

on that like give them the advantage right

43:06

you know don't get them to do algebra yeah like

43:09

them stand up sit down real fast like that makes a lot

43:11

of sense I'm proud to say I have

43:14

never won that game ever not

43:16

even what I like about it is I can also get my

43:18

steps in yeah like so I

43:21

try to I try to exercise pretty much every day but

43:24

I've been coaching my oldest

43:26

two daughters soccer they're doing rec

43:28

league soccer I'm coaching and I found

43:31

that I can I can get like 20,000 steps

43:33

in a day because during practice I am running

43:35

and moving and do I do all the

43:38

stuff they're with them like when they do sprints at

43:40

the end of practice I'm out there running too you

43:42

know which helps me like

43:45

get some exercise in and so I think that's the thing think about is

43:47

like how can you help parents feel

43:49

good about the weight as opposed

43:51

to what we're talking about at the beginning where I feel like I'm

43:53

wasting my time like this experience

43:56

is draining to me I do not

43:58

want to do it again versus Experience

46:00

at a table right this where some really cool happiness

46:02

comes from and for her to be able to identify that Right,

46:05

which is kind of a long-term thing, you know, that's tomorrow

46:08

and again my son tomorrow could be 12 years

46:10

from now He didn't know tomorrow is just like a

46:12

morphous blob out in the yeah, you

46:14

know, yeah, but to identify a long-term

46:17

The what's it called when you have to delay gratification,

46:20

right? So there's another skill that we're talking about that

46:22

is so vital for young people and children to learn

46:24

So we're talking about delay gratification because tomorrow

46:27

or you know, sometime later this week We're gonna take this game to your

46:29

friends and we're gonna have to have fun with them Versus

46:32

here's a bowl of ice cream right now, right?

46:35

That's an interesting its thing really interesting

46:37

Yeah, the other so cool the other the side effect

46:40

of that which is also quite beautiful is

46:43

when it comes to game design As

46:45

soon as we got out of like prototype and

46:47

we could actually like build versions

46:49

of this She got to give those versions

46:52

to her friends, right? She got to leave them at

46:54

their house and say this is this is a present

46:56

It's yours forever. Enjoy it. Every time I

46:58

come over I want to play you know, but but it's yours

47:00

and She got so

47:03

much delight out of that process of

47:05

giving things to her friends Especially things

47:07

that like she made and she could say like I made

47:09

this for you. It's yours. I

47:11

hope you love it Like it was just beautiful.

47:14

Just beautiful. That's awesome. And that's that's universal

47:16

man you know, I spent years working with people

47:18

experiencing homelessness in Atlanta and The

47:21

number of times where you'd sit down and

47:23

you know You're bringing a meal to somebody or you're bringing

47:25

clothing or shoes or something like that you and

47:27

you you know You're providing a need that that

47:29

they have right? They don't They got a lot

47:32

going on throw some mental health stuff probably some drug addiction

47:34

whatever And so you're providing for something that they need you're

47:36

giving to them, which feels good. It feels good But

47:38

then they want to give to and so I can't tell you

47:40

how many amazing artists on the street Withdraw

47:43

just a quick sketch and give it to the volunteer

47:45

and say hey, you know, thank you for what you're giving You're

47:47

giving me I want to give you this or they make a bracelet

47:50

or they you know, hey, let me tell you a story Let me tell

47:52

you a joke, but they wanted to give as

47:55

well, right? You know, it's better to give than receive but that's

47:57

everybody, you know, and so tapping into

47:59

that for kids and helping

48:01

them to understand. Man, that's awesome

48:03

because I mean, it's again,

48:06

it's universal. It's everybody. It's so beautiful. I'll

48:08

tell you, there's one interesting side effect

48:10

of that of designing games with

48:13

her, which is I'll watch

48:15

her play games with her friends

48:18

and she'll say at the end of it,

48:20

she'll say, okay, wasn't that fun? Okay, now

48:23

what game did you design? Let's play because

48:26

in her brain, everybody's doing this.

48:28

When you walk to Target, yeah, there's

48:31

our games with your name on the shelf,

48:34

but in the next shelf over is your next

48:36

friend. That's where their games are. In the next shelf,

48:39

that is her expectation now is this is

48:41

normal. It's

48:43

going to be an interesting process to break her of that. Not

48:47

exactly sure how to approach it yet. Well, not everybody has a

48:49

day like you, man. That's

48:53

what it is. But I tell you what, though, kids

48:56

naturally are game designers. If you go to any

48:58

playground in America, any after school,

49:00

recess type of situation, whatever, kids are out

49:02

there designing games and the rules are ridiculous

49:04

and everybody's cheating and we're justifying

49:07

all these different things, but they're designing games.

49:09

Then somewhere along the way, though, as we get

49:12

adultified, a lot of us lose it.

49:14

I feel like one thing that as game designers, we

49:16

are tapping back into is maybe something

49:19

we never should have lost. We have to

49:21

go back and remember, this

49:23

is who we are naturally as humans. It's

49:26

so cool that you're seeing that on the ground

49:28

floor with a four year old, with a five year old. You

49:31

know what I think it is? I've never thought about this before

49:33

you said that. I think the difference

49:35

is we lose our audience. I think when

49:37

we're kids and we design games, we've

49:39

got a playground full of other kids reacting

49:41

to it. We change the rules and little

49:45

Johnny is cheating, so let's change

49:47

the rules to make that harder. We

49:49

have an audience for, you know, what is

49:51

it, 30 minutes or 20 minutes. As

49:54

we get older, I think

49:57

because we lose our audience, you start to design

49:59

in a vacuum. And that's much less satisfying

50:02

and much less rewarding. I

50:04

tell you what too. Now you say that the

50:06

game, we still play games though, don't we? But the,

50:09

the incentives change now it's, it's a business game.

50:11

It's a money game. I'm the winner because

50:13

I have the more, the most stuff in the best car

50:15

in the nicest house and we're still

50:17

cheat and we stood, you know, so maybe,

50:19

maybe it's the outcome is

50:22

different. It's not joy. It's not joy.

50:24

It's stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

50:27

That doesn't feel better than other people. Yeah, I know. Right.

50:29

We just got a little existential, but I feel like it's something to

50:31

think about as game designers is like, how

50:33

do we, how do we get people to tap back into

50:36

while we play games from the beginning

50:38

and it wasn't to have the biggest

50:40

house on the block or have, you know, a bunch

50:42

of followers on tick or Twitter

50:45

or whatever it is or X or whatever you say now, um, like

50:47

that wasn't it, we played for the love. We

50:49

played for the joy and the, the just

50:52

enjoyment of the moment. We got

50:54

to make more joy. Yeah. Right.

50:57

All right. That's another podcast, man. That's a whole new episode. And

51:00

I'm going to be thinking about this for days now. All right.

51:02

Thank you for that. That's awesome. Here's

51:04

the service, man. Let's, let's

51:07

let that rest for a minute. Let's go. Let's

51:09

talk about business. Let's talk about the money side. Um,

51:12

let's talk about, first of all, there's different things

51:14

to think about designing or excuse me, manufacturing

51:17

games for children versus kid, you

51:19

know, people that are 14 plus. So what

51:21

are some of the interesting things you've been learning? Maybe

51:23

some of the things that you ran into

51:25

that you had to go back and it costs you extra money, anything

51:27

like that. Cause I know there's extra test testing, like

51:29

safety testing, but what else manufacturing

51:32

wise? Uh, manufacturing wise, well,

51:35

seeing as how we started this business,

51:37

me and my partner, uh, Matt Inman,

51:40

uh, having no idea what we were doing,

51:43

uh, we have made all kinds of exciting

51:45

mistakes. Um, I'll tell you a

51:47

few of the highlights for me. Uh,

51:51

one, uh,

51:52

the term full bleed cards.

51:55

Um, we thought

51:58

when you look at the back of an exploding. the card

52:00

ah it's a it's read if elo

52:02

logo in the middle better to read back garden it goes

52:05

edge to edge that called full bleed means the

52:07

ink when all the way to the edges we thought that

52:09

was the most beautiful thing let's go with

52:11

that the problem is the reason

52:13

you never see full bleed cards when

52:15

you buy a deck of poker cards bicycle whatever

52:17

they are they're never full bleed else

52:20

have a white border around

52:22

the whole thing in the reason is because as

52:24

you manipulate cards that

52:26

think chips and it starts

52:28

to chip right around the edge where the cards

52:31

are coming in contact with other cards and

52:33

goes right to the edge when that edge it's another edge

52:35

that's where it chips the

52:37

problem with that in exploding kittens

52:40

is if a card starts to chip

52:42

in any kind of recognizable way you

52:45

can start to make predictions about what that carter's

52:47

without turning it over and in a press your luck game

52:49

where you need to know before

52:52

you turn a card over what it is ah

52:54

that makes the game unplayable so

52:57

we thought okay cool ah well

52:59

we've done full bleed for two years

53:01

we've now learned that it's a huge problem

53:04

should have known that before but we didn't ah

53:06

so now we'll just go and change it will just change

53:08

the backs of our cards which means none

53:10

of our cards are compatible with anything anymore

53:13

he can't play with expansions the expansions

53:15

you bought which version of the

53:17

expansion did you buy which version of your

53:19

core said you have it became a nightmare

53:22

so after like six months of printing

53:25

updated card backs we eventually had

53:27

to come back to full bleed just

53:29

so that our offense wouldn't murder us

53:32

or for the investment that they had already made in

53:34

the games member on kickstarter we

53:36

had we shipped seven

53:37

hundred thousand copies

53:39

of the game in food

53:41

and to basically go back and say yeah

53:43

all of those are now obsolete

53:46

a was just a nonstarter so ah

53:49

full believe those a huge manufacturing

53:51

lesson for us ah i'll

53:53

tell you another fun one which was on

53:55

our our

53:57

third game yeah or sir

54:00

I'll tell you what, the second game. Our

54:02

second game was a game

54:04

called Bears versus Babies. And that

54:06

game was unique because the box

54:09

was covered in fur. You know, it's

54:11

the first fur covered box. It was so

54:13

beautiful, so incredible. And

54:16

then we got it to Amazon.

54:19

And not only did they refuse

54:21

to process any of those boxes, but

54:24

they sued us. And the reason they sued

54:26

us is because a fur covered box on

54:28

their conveyor belts, the fur falls off and

54:31

plugs up their conveyor belt, like literally clogs

54:33

up the spinning gears

54:35

and mechanism and makes it so they have to shut

54:37

down their whole factory. So

54:39

our beautiful, lovely

54:42

fur covered box then had to be shrink-wrapped, which

54:44

defeated the entire purpose. And

54:47

so that was another very important lesson

54:49

learned. Wow. Yeah, what

54:51

a terrible mistake. And I'll tell you one more, just because

54:54

now I'm going down memory lane here. We

54:56

had another game called You've Got Crabs, and

54:59

we released an expansion for that game.

55:02

The game itself was a card

55:04

manipulation game. You had a hand of cards and you had to

55:06

also pass secret signals to your

55:08

teammates using your hands and feet and nose

55:11

and whatever you wanted to use. And so we had

55:13

an expansion which made it

55:16

much easier to manipulate, to collect

55:18

the cards you wanted, but you had to

55:21

wear these giant rubber crab

55:23

claws, which made all that signal passing impossible.

55:26

It made it impossible to hold your cards. And it was

55:28

hilarious. And we thought it was the funniest thing ever.

55:31

However, those

55:32

crab claws, the first hundred

55:35

thousand off the line smelled

55:38

horrible. In a way that just

55:40

didn't show up in prototyping, didn't show up in any

55:42

of our early tests, but as soon as they went into

55:44

mass production, there was this stench to them

55:46

that was just, you

55:48

just couldn't have the thing in the house with you. So

55:52

we had to hire an entire warehouse to

55:54

hold, I don't even remember, let's

55:56

call it 100,000 orders. That's 200,000.

56:00

in the crab claws, we had to wash

56:02

them and hang them up on laundry

56:04

lines for a week

56:08

to try to get the smell out of those things. So

56:12

that was a good lesson too. Wow.

56:14

Yeah. And things that, I mean, these are, unfortunately,

56:17

these are things you don't know that you don't know. Yeah. Right.

56:19

Exactly. Now the card, the border around

56:21

the cards, okay, maybe that one, but it's like so often,

56:23

this is the challenge, right? When you're pushing down

56:25

below, when you're trying to do things that other people aren't

56:27

doing or haven't done before, well, one,

56:30

there might be a reason, but on

56:32

the other side of that, like it's

56:34

frustrating because you're going to, you're going to fall into holes that no one else

56:36

is, no one else can even tell you about necessarily.

56:39

Right. Because you're pushing the envelope so much and that's just kind

56:41

of the natural state of things. When

56:44

it comes to the kids' games in particular,

56:47

did you notice you had to do anything because

56:49

the, because you have kids, right? You

56:51

know, so sticky fingers and clumsy hands

56:54

and you know, durability wise, like I've played

56:56

kids' games, the plastic was so cheap that

56:58

like, this is not kid ready. This

57:01

is, you know, so anything

57:03

else like that? Yeah. Well, durability

57:05

was a huge thing. Like we use really,

57:07

really high quality materials so that they could resist

57:10

just the abuse that kids put them through. But

57:13

the new thing that

57:15

I've never really seen much, maybe

57:18

ever in kids' games was, let's

57:21

look at, I want my teeth back. Really

57:24

any of our games, they all start with the

57:26

kid gets a play mat,

57:28

right? If I want my teeth back, you're trying to collect

57:30

teeth and put them on your play mat in

57:33

your monster's mouth and the first one to fill it up wins.

57:35

In the case of the best worst ice cream, you're collecting

57:37

those ice cream scoops and putting them on your cone, but

57:39

your cone is your play mat, starts out empty.

57:43

For whatever reason, kids

57:46

started to care a lot about

57:48

those play mats. Each

57:50

one was a different color. That's it. Really no difference

57:52

than that. Just a different color. But my

57:55

daughter always had to have the pink one.

57:57

You know, her friend Harper always

57:59

had to have the blue one, right? And

58:02

so what we realized is, okay, if kids are going

58:04

to care so much about these playmats, why

58:06

don't we just lean into that? And we

58:08

made a place on every playmat for

58:10

a kid to permanently write their name

58:12

and put stickers and draw all over them

58:14

and decorate them so that every time you play the

58:17

game, this one is yours permanently.

58:20

And that was this incredible

58:23

milestone for us. When kids

58:25

would open up the box, they would dive in

58:27

there and grab their playmat.

58:30

Really simple manufacturing trick, right? There's

58:32

nothing to it. But

58:34

it was something that would never be

58:36

important in an adult game, never be

58:38

important in a party game. But

58:41

we had to learn, like, let's sacrifice

58:43

in the manufacturing process, let's sacrifice

58:45

some real estate for them to

58:47

write their name,

58:48

for them to decorate for them to put

58:50

stickers, so that this thing can

58:52

be there as permanently. And they feel that sense of

58:55

pride and ownership every time they see it. Yeah,

58:57

that's awesome. Also, now you have,

58:59

I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is about kids and stickers.

59:01

It is just a match that

59:04

made in heaven. Like, I don't know, there's some deep

59:06

thing going on. But now you can lean into that.

59:09

And so you could potentially put a little sticker sheet in there

59:11

with stars or trophies or whatever. And every time

59:13

a kid wins, they get to

59:15

get a sticker, you know, they

59:18

were first place and they get to put it on there. And now they can keep track.

59:21

I've won this game five times. Dad, you've only won it twice.

59:23

What's going on? Sorry. Sorry

59:25

for you. What's wrong with you, dad? Come

59:28

on. But from a manufacturing standpoint, that's

59:30

a penny. I mean, it's so cheap. It's basically

59:32

free to put a little sticker sheet in there. But

59:34

then the moments that you get the experience,

59:36

right? And now a kid doesn't only get to win,

59:39

they get to go through

59:41

the process. One thing about the Olympics is so cool.

59:43

Or anytime you win a championship or something like that, like you

59:46

have the trophy ceremony, right? The presentation

59:48

of the medal where you get to get on stage

59:50

and everyone looks at you as the winner of this thing. Like

59:52

that's a cool moment. And now the kid gets to do that on a very

59:54

small scale with a sticker, which they

59:56

love stickers, probably more than a trophy. Anyway, here's something

59:58

we have not solved yet. or

1:02:00

going to a birthday, buying a gift for a kid, this

1:02:03

is gonna make you the cool

1:02:05

uncle. This is gonna make you the most popular

1:02:07

aunt ever, right? Like that kind of message

1:02:11

is one that we're leaning heavily into. For parents,

1:02:13

we're trying to say like, look, your

1:02:15

kid is going to have fun and I

1:02:17

promise you secretly, they're gonna learn

1:02:20

something too. And you should feel

1:02:22

good about game time. You should feel excited

1:02:25

to put this thing in front of your kids because they're gonna

1:02:28

have fun and they're gonna become a

1:02:30

better person. And the other

1:02:32

message we're pushing forward is like, games

1:02:35

for kids don't have

1:02:37

to suck. And that

1:02:40

simple message, I think resonates

1:02:42

with a lot of people. A lot of grownups who

1:02:45

have tried kids games and are forced to

1:02:47

play them, know that it's

1:02:49

a special kind of torture. And if

1:02:52

there was a better way, we think

1:02:55

that would make your life and your kid's

1:02:57

life a lot better. And here's the solution to

1:02:59

that. So those are the marketing

1:03:01

messages we're putting out there in the games

1:03:04

themselves. We're doing things like

1:03:06

we separate the instructions into two sections,

1:03:09

a section for the adults to

1:03:11

read when the kids are not in the room. We're like,

1:03:13

listen, mom, dad, grownup, you're gonna

1:03:15

have, take 10 minutes, read

1:03:17

these to yourself. They're really easy,

1:03:20

but your poor kid, don't read this

1:03:22

out loud to them, they don't care. At the end of

1:03:24

the instructions, we have another section. It's

1:03:26

two paragraphs long, and there's pictures and

1:03:29

make funny sounds. That's the part you read

1:03:31

out loud to your kid. And it's gonna explain

1:03:33

the game to them, but it's gonna be missing a whole bunch

1:03:35

of details that you are then gonna verbally

1:03:37

explain as you go through the game the first time. And

1:03:41

that became really important too. Just

1:03:44

trying to figure out like, this is a game

1:03:46

for two different audiences. They're gonna have two different

1:03:48

experiences, and we have to accommodate both of them

1:03:50

for this to be successful. I like that. I

1:03:52

like the idea of the parent becoming the tutorial.

1:03:55

You become the guide. Kinda like a video game. That's one thing

1:03:57

video games have better than board games.

1:04:00

And just it's so hard the tutorial you

1:04:02

learn while you play right you

1:04:04

you run you're doing the actions you're shooting You're jumping

1:04:07

all that kind of stuff as you as you you're

1:04:09

kind of giving your Your parent

1:04:11

player the opportunity to do that to be

1:04:13

the one that says, okay now that we're this part of the game Here's

1:04:15

how this works as we're doing it versus all

1:04:17

right. Let me front load all these All these

1:04:19

rules and you're gonna forget 90 of them. Anyway,

1:04:22

that that makes that makes a lot of sense I also

1:04:24

like the idea of a game That's

1:04:27

a perfect gift, you know that you

1:04:29

you get it just makes sense, you know, it's from

1:04:31

a price point on it I mean, that's what?

1:04:34

Grownups walk into retail with that exact

1:04:36

problem Nobody nobody I don't

1:04:38

think many people do their homework in advance.

1:04:41

What kids game should I buy? They walk into the store. They

1:04:43

look at the shelf and they're like I'm overwhelmed,

1:04:46

but I gotta choose something. Uh This

1:04:48

one a long time can delay in a monopoly because that's

1:04:50

all they know. That's right They just default

1:04:52

to it because that's what they grew up with and that's kind of what

1:04:54

we're fighting against And that's let me tell you you

1:04:57

buy candy land and you give it to a kid You

1:04:59

are hurting those parents as a mean

1:05:01

thing to do to the adult from the house so

1:05:05

uh So I we're trying very

1:05:07

hard at retail on the store shelf

1:05:09

to craft a message and just say like It

1:05:12

doesn't have to be that way. Here is a better

1:05:14

solution. Give this a try instead. Yeah, that

1:05:16

makes a lot of sense one thing i've seen some companies do

1:05:20

Not with kids though Just a different thought is

1:05:22

on the back of the box They'll kind of tell you the skills you

1:05:24

need to understand or the things that you're going to deal

1:05:26

with during the game, right? Whether it's the mechanism or whatever

1:05:29

one thing I maybe maybe could work with kids games on

1:05:31

the back of the box. It says, you know Builds

1:05:34

problem solving helps with color matching Helps

1:05:38

with uh physical activity like whatever it

1:05:40

is like whatever the skills are. Yeah. Yeah Do

1:05:42

you do you put those on the back do that? We do exactly

1:05:44

that. Yeah, three or four bullets And

1:05:47

they're the things we learned in testing. We

1:05:49

work really closely with

1:05:52

a lot of very talented testers talented

1:05:55

teachers parents who have just got

1:05:57

a ton of experience working with kids and

1:05:59

we say like, look, here

1:06:02

are the things we think you

1:06:04

and your kid are going to get out of this, and then

1:06:06

go try the game. And then they come back and they say, well, these

1:06:09

three definitely these two, not so much. But

1:06:11

here's three more that you missed that were emergent

1:06:13

and amazing. And we've worked over months to refine

1:06:16

those lists, narrow them all down to just

1:06:18

three or four bullets, but say like, you're going

1:06:20

to see this happen, you're going to see your kids dexterity

1:06:22

improve, you're going to see your kids, the

1:06:25

logical side of their brains start to sharpen,

1:06:28

we promise you're going to see this as

1:06:30

it's going to be pretty magical when it happens. Yeah,

1:06:32

very cool. I mean, this has been excellent. Anything else,

1:06:35

maybe that we didn't talk about or anything else you want to bring

1:06:38

up either designing or manufacturing

1:06:40

anything else you want to kind of leave listeners with?

1:06:42

The last thing for me is just like, you know,

1:06:44

you opened with how,

1:06:48

how weird it has been for someone like

1:06:50

me to get into this industry, knowing

1:06:52

nothing about it. And it's so true. And

1:06:55

it's, it's been the weirdest

1:06:58

journey. But I

1:07:00

am very proud to say we've got our

1:07:02

little company now we got 85 people working there.

1:07:05

We've sold more than 25 million

1:07:07

games. And we're

1:07:10

launching this year, we're launching 13

1:07:13

new games. And

1:07:16

it has just been the weirdest

1:07:18

journey ever. It's the best job I have

1:07:21

ever had. And I'm just

1:07:23

so I feel so lucky to have stumbled into this

1:07:25

thing because I get

1:07:27

to literally put

1:07:30

joy in boxes and then give

1:07:32

those boxes to people. It's the best thing

1:07:34

ever. That's awesome, dude. Well, I'm so glad you

1:07:37

jumped in way back when and had an idea for a

1:07:39

little card game that literally

1:07:41

exploded. And so man,

1:07:43

it's so cool. And I'm just excited for what's next. Right?

1:07:46

Like I said, I've got a bunch of your games already on my shelf in there. My

1:07:48

kids love to play them. They play them without me, you know,

1:07:50

they'll get them out and play them perfect themselves. And

1:07:53

I need to I need to get these new ones and try

1:07:55

with my younger kids and I'm looking forward to

1:07:57

that. So you said people can find them in Target anywhere

1:08:00

else people can can find these games? Oh, there's

1:08:02

it's, you know, it's getting to the point where they're hard

1:08:04

to find places where they're not target

1:08:07

a problem to have Walmart, Amazon, Barnes and

1:08:09

Noble, indigo, you name

1:08:11

it. It's really, we

1:08:13

have our problem is producing

1:08:15

enough games, not finding distributors.

1:08:18

So yeah, it's an incredible problem. It

1:08:20

is man. Yeah, kind of problems you

1:08:22

you want to have. Thank you. Yes, very

1:08:24

much. So well, Elon, this has been excellent.

1:08:26

Really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for being here. Thank

1:08:29

you. It's such a pleasure. Thanks for chatting with me.