0:00

What's up my friends and welcome to the board game

0:02

design lab today, we're talking about foundational

0:05

game design We're talking about the things to be thinking about

0:08

Really before you even get started

0:10

with a game and I'm talking to Leo Taylor

0:13

from just plain games and Leo is

0:15

a guy Along with his design team

0:17

have worked on quite a few games with

0:20

some very well-known brands Working

0:22

with Hasbro working on risk working on

0:24

clue working on Dungeons & Dragons Games

0:27

that you may have seen in Target or

0:29

on store shelves and we're talking about

0:31

his gauntlet Which is what he calls it It's just kind

0:34

of a longer document that has all

0:36

these different pillars of things that

0:38

he likes to think about

0:40

Before he gets into a game and while he's you know Kind

0:42

of along the way along the journey and different

0:44

questions They kind of asked himself different

0:46

things about the game and obviously it's the whole

0:48

you know How many players and what?

0:50

timeframe do you want it to play in and The

0:52

weight of the game and things like that things that we all kind of

0:54

think about but it's also a lot more just deeper

0:57

things to be thinking about

1:00

not only about mechanisms and theme but

1:02

also experience and Different

1:04

inspirations and different things to be thinking

1:06

about as far as the marketing and product ability

1:09

of the game It's just kind of the whole picture

1:11

and not that every single one of these little

1:14

questions and sub questions has to be answered But

1:16

it's just things to be thinking about to create decision

1:18

filters and to make the game design process

1:20

more Intentional to basically

1:22

give it some constraints to give it a box to

1:25

live in so to speak and to make the process

1:27

easier overall To get done

1:29

and even though this is his own personal process

1:32

for doing it I think every game designer will

1:34

benefit from having some kind of document

1:36

like this To put every idea into

1:39

and then really just kind of keep the entire process

1:41

focused and to be able to refer back to When

1:44

you haven't worked on a game for a while and you've kind of forgotten all

1:46

the fuzzy little details It's nice just to have a document

1:49

you can look back on and go. Oh, yeah That's what I was

1:51

working on That's what I was thinking

1:53

and so we get into all the ins and outs of how Leo Approaches

1:56

things but I feel like you'll get a lot of really cool takeaways

1:58

that you can apply to your own game design

1:59

process. In other news, today's

2:02

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CrowdfundingNerds.com and fill out a contact

3:00

form today. And now, please

3:02

help me welcome Leo Taylor.

3:14

So Leo, you've got experience working

3:17

with Hasbro, you've worked with some pretty

3:19

big brands, you've worked with Clue, you've worked with D&D, you've

3:21

worked with Risk. Like, that's a pretty good pedigree

3:23

as far as a resume is concerned.

3:26

But you've got this really cool gauntlet,

3:29

you call it, where you basically determine your pillars

3:31

of game design and you kind of plug an idea

3:34

into all these different things.

3:36

It's pretty big, and I'll link it to people down

3:39

below the show where they can kind of see it for themselves. But we're

3:41

just gonna dive into these

3:43

pillars and dive into all the sub-pillars,

3:45

because that's the thing, it's like one big idea and then

3:47

like a whole bunch of subtopics that

3:50

really just kind of help you put the game

3:52

in the box, so to speak, right? Figure out what are the constraints,

3:55

where do I want to go, what I want to do. So before

3:57

we get into it, you know, in more detail, tell

3:59

me! Exactly like your thoughts like

4:01

what is this thing that you created

4:03

to help you design games and then

4:05

also like why why did you create? this as opposed

4:08

to just sitting down and seeing what happens and Let

4:10

the let the game design just kind of flow from

4:12

you like why get more technical with

4:14

this kind of

4:15

document

4:16

Yeah, of course. Well, thanks for having me Gabe. I'm

4:18

huge fan of the podcast. Thanks for having me on I So

4:21

the pillars of design started when I

4:24

started listening to things like this podcast reading

4:26

books learning like, you know It goes it's a multi-class

4:29

kind of focus game design. And so

4:31

I was like, I mean, I'm gonna forget half these things I'm

4:33

notoriously, you know, not great memory So I

4:35

just want to start documenting them and then

4:37

I realized at some point Oh, this

4:40

is kind of a like like you said a gauntlet like this

4:42

is a good thing to think of before

4:44

I start going Into deep design work So

4:47

let's say I'm working on a game. I'm thinking. Oh this

4:49

theme would work really well Maybe

4:52

I have like a noodling of like where to start but

4:54

actually I think I'm ready to develop let's go ahead and like do a

4:56

checklist almost like Kind

4:59

of like not only how many players that kind of thing but

5:01

also think of it from like different angles

5:04

Like what's the narrative? What's the theme? How

5:06

are you gonna market it? And it's not really to

5:09

Stifle your creativity. It's just

5:11

to kind of help you get a full picture

5:14

To kind of get those nodes in your brain connected before

5:16

you start going into design I also find

5:18

it very comforting to set those constraints

5:20

because then I don't go off in the weeds Which I'm also notorious

5:23

for doing I'll think as you guys

5:25

probably all do it's like, oh this mechanic

5:27

But what if I added this other mechanic and so

5:29

this is a way to keep you in the box

5:32

And just have kind of a target that you're aiming for

5:35

the second part is if you ever get lost in their design

5:37

Let's say it's you know, you're in development and you're like, what

5:40

was I doing? Should we change this to

5:42

this rule a or B? You can always

5:44

look back at the document and say well if

5:47

we want to make it a family lightweight party game And that

5:49

chooses for me. I don't need to you know, waste

5:51

too much time thinking which mechanic to go if

5:53

it's like Oh, there's the there's the target. So

5:56

it's kind of just a way to keep yourself honest

5:59

And it's also not a like, you have to do

6:02

everything on the checklist. It's, I will typically

6:05

go through these, I'm a skim

6:07

and kind of like, I can answer that question right now. That

6:09

one, I don't know. I can answer that one. So

6:13

I apologize, the document, there's a lot going on, but

6:15

that's my document. You know, like,

6:17

I encourage everyone to make their own because the process

6:20

is different. But yeah, that's one thing I've really been thinking

6:22

about lately is, is not, hey, you

6:24

should do this.

6:25

Instead, it's, hey, I did this. And this is

6:27

what worked for me. Your mileage may vary, but here's the

6:29

systems and ideas that I kind of figured

6:31

out. Here's the evidence in

6:33

my own designing, my own publishing, my own crowdfunding

6:36

journey of what works and what doesn't.

6:39

And then hopefully other people can learn from it, right?

6:41

And they can take some things away, but it's not theory,

6:43

right? You are actively using this document to

6:45

create games that have sold

6:47

in the, you know, in the marketplace, right? Like

6:50

I said, you've worked on a clue and

6:52

D&D, like you've worked on these big brands, right?

6:54

You've made escape rooms for like a clue.

6:56

Escape room is a brilliant idea that

6:58

I'm so excited that it exists. But

7:01

it's like when you hear that though, you're like, well, of course

7:03

that exists. Like, well, that's a, that just makes sense.

7:05

And so we can use

7:07

these games. I want you to help kind of structure

7:10

some of these ideas using the games that are on the market,

7:12

right? That way, people can kind of really get a real

7:15

sense of how this document then

7:17

translates into a product. Right.

7:20

And as we just kind of go through these things, feel free to share

7:22

any stories, anecdotes about the process

7:24

along the way. And I think the best thing to do is just kind of go through the

7:27

highlights, the pillars on the document and then

7:29

dive into any of the sub topics. We don't have time to do

7:31

it all because this thing is massive. And

7:33

I like, I like that it has lots of options, right?

7:36

But to your point, it's not for someone just

7:38

to copy paste and say, Oh, I'm going to do that too. It's

7:40

like, no, look at this, figure out what works for you. Someone

7:43

might have totally different ideas, you know, based on the

7:45

kind of games that they're wanting to design or publish or

7:47

bring out into the marketplace. And so, yeah,

7:49

let's just kind of, let's just kind of dive into,

7:52

oh, another thing I wrote down while you were talking is this

7:55

document creates a decision filter. That's

7:57

one thing I thought to new designers, especially you've

7:59

got to. Strain yourself if anything is possible.

8:02

Nothing is going to get done because you just

8:04

it's just too open-ended, right? And so creating

8:06

a document like this even if it's much simpler

8:09

right even if it's just like a handful of bullet

8:11

points on the front end of like what kind of game

8:13

you're wanting to make those bullet points will help you have

8:15

A decision filter so that any time

8:18

like you said if you want to change the mechanism if you

8:20

want to do something thematically Well, you just look

8:23

at that filter and then you just process

8:25

everything through it You're like, no, that doesn't make sense because here's what

8:27

I'm trying to try to accomplish Because

8:29

if you don't have that it's just like

8:33

Let's do everything looks like you're never gonna get

8:35

well, I find that for me I love to I

8:37

love designing around theme and

8:39

kind of make sure the motions match the mechanics

8:41

that kind of thing is important to me So I feel like

8:43

you're juggling a lot of different Mindsets

8:46

at once. So this at least helps you kind of at least

8:48

jar those like, you know, it's like,

8:50

okay I'm thinking very mechanically right now, but at least let

8:53

me look at this document Oh, right narrative and

8:55

it kind of helps jog your memory to like keep

8:57

these things in mind

8:58

As well, it's just kind of fun. Yeah, it's

9:00

great to refocus Also, I can see the

9:03

benefit of like maybe you hadn't worked on the game in

9:05

six months or a year You can come back to this document

9:07

and go. Oh, yeah Here are all the things that

9:09

I'm trying to do and it's not just like sporadic

9:12

notes that you wrote down during play tests It's

9:14

like very specific answers to questions and

9:16

on the checklist like that's gotta be super helpful when you're coming

9:18

back to a design You gotta love

9:20

those scrawled notes on the back of rules that you're

9:22

like, I can't read this. What did I say? Your

9:25

hand you're like, I don't even know what this means Yeah,

9:27

so the first one is experience

9:29

which I love because that's that's where I begin I'm

9:32

thinking through what experience do I want to create for

9:34

players? So let me ask you this is

9:36

this a hierarchy like is experience first on

9:39

purpose? I just kind of random. Okay,

9:41

so I have to admit it is a bit of

9:43

a brick by brick over the years

9:45

I've added chunks to it and there I

9:47

haven't put them in a perfect order I don't know if

9:49

there is such a thing But I find

9:52

this this system going

9:54

through from the top to bottom for me useful right

9:56

now But

9:57

every now and then I will purposely take a chunk

9:59

of it and move it around just because I don't want

10:01

to get locked into like, oh, I always think how

10:03

many players first that I do this. So

10:06

to keep it kind of fresh, but I think experience

10:08

is a, is a good place to start as

10:10

well. I'm also a very experiential designer

10:12

first. So I like this one. Yeah.

10:15

So a couple of questions in there are one

10:17

is how does it end? Which I think, you know, begin

10:19

with the end in mind is one of the most old school

10:21

business pieces of advice in the world. But I think

10:23

for game design is great too, because, you know, how

10:25

does the game end? How do you win? Like what

10:27

are the things that are going to bring this experience

10:30

to a close? If you know that early,

10:32

it can help make a lot of decisions

10:34

as far as like, what are the, what are the things pointing to

10:36

that? You know, how do the rounds work? Are

10:38

we drawing cards, rolling dice, all these things? Yeah.

10:41

But why? Oh, because they lead to this

10:43

in the game state. Oh, okay. That makes a lot more sense. So

10:45

I think that's super smart.

10:46

I was, when I read rule books, I have, I have my

10:48

favorite types of rule books. The ones that give you a premise.

10:51

Who are you? What are you doing? Narratively? How do you

10:53

win? And I liked that because it, it

10:55

kind of, uh, it's a little bit clearer.

10:57

I don't know. I like, I think it's just clear for me to get

11:00

context of what you're doing. So, you know,

11:02

why is, why not design that way too? I also

11:04

think in mind, like how does it end could also be a like

11:06

moment, like, Oh, does the family throw

11:09

their hands up in the air and go, Oh, we, there

11:11

was a close one. You know, it's kind of like noodlings

11:14

of moments of just kind of interaction.

11:16

Uh, so it could kind of be that

11:19

if you wanted to be mechanics, how does it end? How do you

11:21

win? But also how does it like, what's the

11:23

climactic, you know, moment of the game?

11:25

What are you kind of looking to

11:26

build towards? I had a really great conversation with Jeff

11:29

Anglestein recently, and we were talking about design

11:31

theory. And that's one of the main things we talked about was

11:33

understanding these moments in your game. And, and

11:35

the ending is so vital

11:37

because that's, that's what people are mainly going to remember.

11:40

And so if the ending just kind of goes out with a whimper,

11:43

right. And the best part of the game was in the middle, well

11:45

people aren't going to remember the middle as much as they remember

11:47

the end. Right. So even if the middle is amazing,

11:50

if the end was like, man, they're going to think the game is

11:52

like, Oh, it's just okay. You know, versus the

11:55

other way around. And another thing you have in there is

11:57

what peak experience are you trying to create?

11:59

So again, What are these moments

12:01

so talk to me about some of some of those moments

12:04

like for your own games, right? With these escape room

12:06

games with the risk which is like the risk

12:08

game is super cool because it's like a card game version

12:10

Of risk risk strike right where you're trying

12:12

to take this massive board game experience

12:15

that people have been playing forever and Condense

12:17

it down into a card game experience, which is

12:19

no small task, right? So using maybe some of the

12:21

games you've worked on helped me to understand

12:23

how you would apply This pillar

12:26

of these questions to one of those games.

12:28

So with risk luckily That's

12:30

one of my personal favorite designs because it is I loved

12:33

risk growing up and I was like I don't have time to play

12:35

a full game at risk. So let's espresso shot

12:37

it How can you get espresso shot like the modern

12:39

kind of you know time limits you have? So

12:42

that one it was actually their blueprint was already

12:44

existed because you could go to risk You could be like, how

12:47

does it feel to play risk? What are the big moments? There's

12:49

the dice moment where you have your big troops You

12:52

know and you're fighting against your friend and you guys are both

12:54

kind of mad at each other and you're like well, let's do this

12:56

final battle and we roll the dice and there's kind of that moment

12:58

of like I Win there

13:01

I got you through the dice rolling and so That

13:04

is not a complicated moment but that

13:06

is a very crucial moment to the risk

13:08

DNA of dice rolling and kind of like Just

13:11

beating you through luck kind of like chance and

13:14

so for the risk strike that that was a must

13:16

you had to have dice You had to have the same kind of like

13:19

I got you I'm a little proud

13:21

that we've added a little extra layer There are some

13:23

like tactics cards you can play to like kind of oh

13:25

I got you but then you know reroll your dice So

13:29

that's kind of an example in that system of

13:31

a peak moment. It's like you need that risk So

13:34

your hands up in the air you roll better

13:36

than me moment

13:38

Now for the clue escape series, it's

13:40

the aha solving it so in clue once

13:43

again Luckily enough we had a great brand to work

13:45

with the VIP So we could just look

13:47

at those games under magnifying glass and be like

13:49

what are the best moments? and

13:52

so for that one it was very much

13:54

of I I've solved the

13:56

mystery. I'm smart. Aha and

13:58

so that's kind of what we needed to remember replicate in

14:00

our escape and solve series. And so you

14:02

do do puzzles. There's little ahas as you solve

14:05

puzzles. But there's the big final puzzle

14:07

you'd have to solve, which is the murder or

14:09

the mystery of the box. And

14:12

so that's something just to keep in mind. And once again,

14:14

if I was writing the document, it might not

14:16

even be that involved. I might just literally write, have

14:19

aha moment. We

14:21

got to hit that. Or have, throw your hands

14:24

in the air. That's the peak experience. You've defeated

14:26

your friend kind of thing.

14:30

That's really cool. I've been working on a game called Roboman

14:32

forever. And it's a long game. And

14:35

it just kind of plays out over the course

14:37

of lots and lots and lots of sessions. And

14:40

so thinking through these moments,

14:42

but also thinking through, I want them

14:46

to happen at certain points in the story, one,

14:48

to reward the players, but to have those moments

14:50

where they're not just kind of grinding it out and trying to get through

14:52

it. It's like where the game changes slightly,

14:55

not massively necessarily. But you

14:57

open up a new box or you get some new cars or new

14:59

dice or new something. And the game has

15:02

a moment where the player had to sit back and go, huh,

15:04

OK. The game has changed.

15:07

And now it's new information. But

15:10

they can kind of grow into it. Because it's one of

15:12

the things, if you put all these things on the player

15:14

at the beginning to learn it in the rule book or whatever, it's

15:16

just overwhelming. But to have these moments

15:19

along the way where the game changes in

15:21

some way, Dominion is great at this. One

15:24

of the best things about Dominion is you have to figure out when

15:27

to switch gears and stop buying

15:30

cards that do things and start buying cards that

15:32

get you victory points. Because that's how you're going to win. And

15:34

when do you do that? Small world, great example as well.

15:36

When do you put that civilization

15:39

into decline and get a new civilization? Like,

15:42

ah, that's a big moment where the game changes,

15:44

shift. Yeah, so it doesn't even have to necessarily

15:46

be, I guess what I'm saying is it could be narrative

15:49

driven or it could be mechanically driven. But

15:51

the moments, like you're saying, where

15:53

you stand up, you're going to roll those dice. That's a cool thing to

15:56

design for and think about. And it actually leads into the

15:58

next pillar, which is.

15:59

Moment design so one tell

16:02

me how those things are a little bit different and then

16:04

tell me what you're thinking as far as like How do you design

16:06

a moment? So moment design

16:08

is actually there is a power of moments book.

16:10

I read it's a great book I'd recommend it

16:12

pull up actually who wrote it see here looks

16:15

like Chippenheath It's a kind of a more, you

16:17

know, it's not really game design focus per se But

16:20

I find it really useful because they actually broke down the

16:22

science of what you need To have

16:24

a peak moment like a moment you would remember

16:26

years from now. What are they like elements?

16:29

What is the moment is kind of their way of saying like

16:31

where are you playing the game? Is it a birthday party

16:34

is it a friend's house? Is it a

16:36

game night that you always go to? See

16:39

if it's like I guess they say like alert

16:41

to key transition points This would be like birthdays

16:43

or anything that's like a shift because

16:46

they found that in like kind of in science is like When

16:48

you're kind of like when you're in shift of

16:51

a change you typically remember that

16:53

a little more now I don't know if you can really do this

16:55

all in a board game because usually you meet up with your friends

16:57

you play board games There's nothing like to groundbreaking

16:59

like you're not playing in an apocalypse, you

17:02

know, like everything's falling apart or anything But

17:04

I think where it actually starts getting useful is the break

17:07

the script You've probably already

17:09

kind of heard this but in this framework is basically

17:12

just what are games in the same genre

17:14

doing and what is their? Current DNA

17:17

so like social deduction, you know, there's always

17:19

the kind of like we have hidden rules we have accusations

17:23

and distrust And then how

17:26

after you've like analyzed what the

17:28

current script is, how can you break it? So

17:30

what's the twist and that actually works really

17:33

fun from a gameplay perspective but more

17:35

even fun for my like look like Let's

17:38

say I don't know you have it's

17:40

werewolf, but you play it underwater Of

17:44

course that game might not work, but people might at least

17:46

perk their ears up and be like, oh, okay I've

17:48

never heard of that. I'd try it It's

17:51

werewolf, but you spray each other with with

17:53

water guns, you know, that kind of thing that

17:55

also sounds like it's a game Potentially

17:58

it's a game's hook, right? What's gonna get?

17:59

people to lean in and go, Oh,

18:02

tell me more. Or if it's, you know, sitting on a shelf somewhere

18:04

or sitting on Kickstarter, that you

18:06

have this sound bite basically

18:08

that says it's werewolf, but underwater. Like,

18:11

Oh, Oh, what, what, how's that

18:13

work? And now people want to like click and they want to turn,

18:15

turn the box over and look at the back and read the copy that

18:18

kind of thing. So that makes sense as well from a product

18:20

design, as much as it does from a just

18:22

game design space. And then also too, there's just

18:24

like things that I find like raise the stakes

18:26

is usually in most games. Uh, it's

18:28

like, what's your objective? What's going to write

18:31

an attention? Um, you know, are you

18:33

competing?

18:34

Um,

18:34

and then boost sensory appeal is actually one

18:37

of my favorites from the book is this

18:39

book doesn't really talk about game design, but it's like translating

18:41

it to game development. How does it work? Sensory

18:43

appeal seems very much aligned with

18:46

board games. Like the reason I play them is because it's like,

18:48

it feels cool. These pieces are nice. Um,

18:51

I just overall delightful to play this

18:53

like beautiful work of art. And so thinking

18:56

of like, what are your pieces like and how does, how

18:59

do you interact with the game and how does it feel is

19:01

kind of a fun,

19:02

just question. Ask yourself. Yeah. Also

19:05

how Instagrammable is it? Sure.

19:08

How many, how many TikToks can you get people? Definitely.

19:10

Right. I mean, it just is what it is. Right. How, how

19:13

can you help yourself from the marketing standpoint,

19:16

right? With the visual sensory appeals.

19:19

Um, if you think about party games, they, party

19:21

games are so easy to put on TikTok because they're silly

19:23

and goofy and people are doing, you know, doing funny things, right.

19:26

And that lends itself to a 60 second clip.

19:28

And so just thinking, thinking through that, because

19:30

again, we're not just designing games here, we're designing products,

19:33

right? So it's something else to think about. It's all this stuff kind

19:35

of coming together, uh, more than just,

19:38

Hey, I've got this passion project to design a 12

19:40

hour, you know, space epic, like, yeah,

19:42

but is that going to be a product

19:44

on the marketplace? Cause you know, if you don't care all

19:47

good, not saying you have to, not saying you gotta worry about it, but

19:49

it is something to, these are things to think about

19:51

if you do want to

19:53

come to market. Yeah. So, um, this is probably

19:55

a red inside tangent, but I think very much about

19:57

being a game designer myself. Uh, there's

19:59

nothing wrong with. you said space epic if you're designing

20:01

that, but if you decided to design a game,

20:03

that's your thing and you want to run with

20:05

that, that's awesome.

20:08

But I think for this, this checklist is always like, I want

20:10

to be a better game designer and I want to design lots of different

20:13

games. So I do keep that in mind as

20:15

far as just like, I don't know,

20:17

one of my own personal goals, like, oh, I want to be a better designer.

20:19

I don't. So a lot

20:21

of these questions I feel like are kind of so

20:24

that you can put a lot of designs through it. Of

20:27

course, if you have your own, you know, big ass

20:29

game, it's like, you

20:31

can, you don't really need to

20:34

have pillars per se, because you can set those along

20:36

the way of your journey. I wouldn't recommend it though,

20:38

for like selling, like you said, it might be tough to sell,

20:41

but I like one of these next ones,

20:43

players finding aha moments. I

20:45

think that's a cool thing either narratively, when

20:47

there's a sudden change in the story, right? All

20:50

of a sudden you find that Bob is a trader,

20:52

you know, that's a cool moment, betrayal and house on the hill is

20:54

excellent for this. Like when now we go into the second

20:56

phase of the game and somebody has to leave the

20:58

room and read a different rule book and

21:00

they're going to come back and we're, we're all now we're

21:03

against them. Or are we, are they against, like,

21:05

we don't know these kinds of aha moments narratively,

21:07

but then also mechanically when a game

21:10

clicks, right? When you've been playing for a few rounds

21:12

and you go, Oh, that's

21:14

how this thing works. And the game now

21:17

changes. It's going to have a deeper insight into it. I think

21:19

that's, that's really cool. Do you have any moments

21:22

where you've kind of like designed for

21:24

those moments? So we have, um,

21:27

this is a project that's really kind of in development.

21:30

It's not finished and published, but there's a kind of

21:32

a deck builder we're working on. And a moment we

21:34

really wanted for aha is that, um,

21:37

like, like, said, it's kind of like mechanically as you build

21:39

your deck, you are discovering what you could

21:41

do for the next game. Like, Oh,

21:44

I built my deck wrong. And, or

21:46

I built my deck this way this time, but if I

21:48

was to do it, you know, like, Oh, that card,

21:50

if I added that in, I think that kind of thing

21:52

is really fun as well. So not only narrative,

21:55

like emotional moments, but like, like you

21:57

said, gameplay, like, Oh man, I want to play

21:59

again because I actually they want to build this

22:01

differently or play a different strategy.

22:03

So I think that's also really fun. Yeah,

22:05

I think it's so important as designers to make

22:08

it somewhat easy for players to

22:10

realize why they won or why they lost,

22:12

right? If players get to the end of the game and they get decimated,

22:15

right? They lost by 50 points that they go,

22:17

well, it's because I made this decision. I built my

22:20

deck like this. I tried this risky thing over

22:22

here and it didn't work out. But I can at least point to

22:24

myself and go, I'm the reason. Versus,

22:26

you know, I just had a bunch of bad die rolls and

22:28

the dice gods were against me tonight.

22:30

I think we're probably gonna blame the dice gods anyway.

22:33

But for players to be able to go, here's why I won.

22:35

Here's why I lost. I think that's super, super

22:37

helpful, especially for getting people to play again. Cause if

22:39

I have no idea, I'm like, I don't understand

22:41

this game. I might think, this game is just not for

22:44

me. I don't want to play it again. Versus, oh,

22:47

I see what I should have changed about my strategy mid

22:49

game. Next time we play, I'm gonna get

22:51

you. Cause now I understand it. Like that's just seems to

22:53

be a

22:54

better game experience. I think that add insight

22:56

and the aha moment is, once again, someone

22:59

to keep in mind just to why you design. I don't know

23:01

if you can always like start off and be like, this is how

23:03

I will design that moment. But it's nice to just think

23:05

about like, oh, what will keep

23:07

players wanting to play it again? Or what's gonna be

23:09

there like tripping over the fun that they

23:11

find

23:12

during play? Yeah, I think it can also

23:15

just be like you're saying, an idea, like

23:17

I'll give you an example. When Eric Lang and Rob

23:20

Davio were working on Death May Die, Eric

23:22

Lang, I heard him say this in an interview. He

23:25

said, when we started the game, my

23:27

idea was, wouldn't it be cool if you could

23:29

shoot Cthulhu in the face with a shotgun? That'd

23:32

be cool. That's a cool moment. How do we design

23:34

for that? And he had no mechanisms.

23:37

He had no narrative. There was no nothing other than

23:39

I want to create this experience

23:42

for the players where they feel like they can do that versus

23:44

most Cthulhu games, which is like, you're slowly

23:46

gonna go insane and you're just gonna kind of

23:48

see what happens. You know, you can't really do a whole

23:51

lot to fight these things, but like, what if you could? You

23:53

know, so I think that's a cool experience to start

23:55

from. And so even if you're coming

23:57

at it from like very, very basic.

24:00

Out there in the ether kind of an idea of okay. I want

24:02

to be able to do this cool

24:04

thing I don't know how I'm gonna do it or how it's gonna

24:06

work or how players are gonna accomplish that dice cards I

24:09

don't know, but I'm aiming at this.

24:11

I think that's at least a good place to start That's cool. And

24:13

it's also kind of a design hook for yourself

24:15

in a weird way of like

24:17

I've broke the script through It's Cthulhu,

24:19

but instead of you being scared you can shoot him in the face. So

24:21

it's kind of a fun like Not only

24:23

does it work as a self when it works so works to inspire

24:25

you to hopefully, you know figure out what the mechanics

24:28

are

24:29

the

24:30

Next one is called like add pride by the

24:32

way It's just kind of this one's a little more I don't

24:34

know if it really for you know Translates really

24:36

well to game design But it's mostly like why would

24:38

people be invested in their milestones

24:41

and in games we typically have like objectives

24:43

So it kind of naturally fits like oh you want to win Or

24:46

if you know if it's not When maybe in

24:48

a party game like you have the pride of your

24:50

team has selected your correct

24:52

word, you know I can taboo or something So

24:56

adding those like like little moments of pride that you feel

24:58

when you play the game is kind of fun to think about But

25:01

typically I find that this section I usually do

25:03

kind of skip quicker because it's like, okay The game

25:05

has an objective. So your pride is around

25:07

usually you're winning and or competing

25:10

or cooperating with your friends You can also do

25:12

this mechanically. Um,

25:14

or at least you definitely have a legacy game

25:16

so risk legacy comes to mind where

25:19

every time a player wins they get

25:21

to Mark that on the board

25:23

right and then the winner gets to do something you

25:25

get to add a sticker You get to make a city different

25:27

you get to change some numbers somewhere And so

25:30

you kind of get that moment of like, oh man, I get to do this thing But

25:33

you can also do it mechanically in the game Like

25:35

I've seen some games where you

25:37

know person in last place or person in first place They

25:40

get this extra little thing that they get to do. So,

25:42

you know, that's not like oh look at me I'm great But like even

25:45

in the moment in a very small way

25:48

you can kind of get some little extra Bonus

25:50

or benefit for being in a certain position

25:53

and so just kind of add add pride in there, right?

25:56

It's just different things. I guess main thing is just different things

25:58

to think about as far as creating these

25:59

These moments it's kind of a fun when I thought like just

26:02

naming a card Like said legacy

26:04

like signing your name on something actually goes a long way.

26:06

I'd be like cool I have a little hit of like that's

26:08

that's fun. That's I'm proud. I'm proud.

26:10

It's my card or that's my you know Like so the sticker

26:13

moving into the next one design inspirations.

26:16

This is what I like to do I like to list out

26:18

the games that I'm thinking about. This is really helpful

26:21

later. I come back to it six months later I'm like, what was what

26:23

was that game about the thing where you did

26:25

the other stuff? Like I can't ever remember but if I write

26:27

it all down is More helpful or if I saw

26:30

a game review or a playthrough video or something

26:32

like that I'll put the link, you know, that makes

26:34

it everything easy to find but just

26:36

go through and go here are the games that are inspiring This

26:39

how can I do things similarly? How can I do

26:41

things differently? So it stands out, you know,

26:43

their hook is this So my hook

26:45

is gonna be that but that's

26:47

super super helpful So tell me you know, you've

26:50

worked on a lot of games where the inspiration

26:52

was literally in the name clue the escape

26:54

game Right D&D escape game

26:57

Risk like you're starting off with some pretty well-known brands,

27:00

which is nice But also maybe

27:03

more constraining then, you know

27:05

other opportunities But tell me about this as far as your

27:08

design inspirations, how do you handle this particular?

27:10

Sure So I found

27:12

that like let's say I'm working on that game. It's not IP is

27:14

kind of just a game I'm thinking of it's

27:17

you know random. I will I will think about what

27:19

did I what I think

27:21

a lot of nodes Like I don't know why I think of them the

27:23

circular dots that I have in my life that I've experienced

27:26

You know like this little experience of the song I listen to

27:28

and somehow in my brain they'll connect and then I'll be like Oh,

27:30

that's a cool game idea. So it's really just

27:32

taking stock of like kind of

27:35

reflecting back of like What did I have

27:37

to make me want to make this game? So

27:39

for example, was I am making an alien game? I

27:41

watched the movie alien. That's one node. What other experiences

27:44

that I have that's like Oh, I also saw this

27:46

cool color palette online. That was like very

27:48

bright and maybe I want to make a bright alien game Of

27:52

course, it's all fictional I'm just making something

27:54

up but it's more just like thinking back

27:56

like oh I played this other game It made me

27:58

feel I really liked

27:59

how that mechanic worked or how

28:01

the game actually made me

28:04

feel different. And so it's really just like I'll write

28:06

out

28:08

what I've experienced. And

28:11

I don't know why that just helps me kind of almost

28:14

get more awareness of why I'm choosing

28:16

the things I'm choosing and also call upon those experiences

28:19

for inspiration later. Let's say I get

28:21

lost in the weeds, I'm confused on what part of

28:23

the game I should work on, and I can look back and

28:25

be like, oh yeah, let me go watch the Alien movie. Maybe

28:28

that'll help. Kind of like pull on

28:30

those

28:32

DNA of where it started. Yeah, that makes sense.

28:34

It's also like for a sports metaphor,

28:36

it's like watching film, right? If you have

28:39

something you want to do or you want to get better at,

28:41

you want to understand, well, you just break down the film,

28:43

right? Okay. They find

28:46

people doing it well and they go, okay, they

28:48

take their first step this far out. They're

28:51

lined up here. They move this way. Okay, how can

28:53

I recreate that myself? That way I can

28:55

be really good at this technique or whatever it is as

28:57

well. Same thing with games, right? If you can break

28:59

down a game, mechanically, narratively,

29:02

productly, whatever, marketing, all those

29:04

things and go, okay, here is the thing

29:06

that I think is really cool. Why is it working? How

29:09

did this sell a million? How did this

29:11

make a million dollars on Kickstarter? Like how

29:13

in the world do they do this? Okay, let's break it down. Okay.

29:16

Well, they had this email list. They had eight months leading

29:18

up to the campaign. Like you start breaking down the steps

29:20

and all of a sudden it gets a little more interesting,

29:22

first of all, but a little easier to actually recreate

29:25

it because you're breaking it down. I think this makes a lot of sense.

29:27

And like I said, it's always

29:29

nice to be able to go back later and

29:31

remember, oh yeah, that inspired

29:34

me. Let me go look at that video again. Let me go watch that movie again

29:36

and

29:37

I'll probably get that same inspiration happening. Right.

29:39

Like sometimes if I watch this and make a theme park game,

29:42

I watched a cool like rollercoaster documentary.

29:44

I'll link the like the documentary link there just

29:46

in case you never know. You're like, you know what? I'm feeling

29:49

like I'm kind of lost in the weeds. Let me just watch this and like,

29:51

oh, I kind of feel the like, you know, initial

29:53

thoughts of like, oh, that's a cool video. Let me see if I

29:55

can, you know, get inspired to put in my game.

29:59

The other thing I really like. under this list of these other

30:01

questions is, what experiences could you

30:03

have to help you with this project?

30:05

And so that's almost like, what are steps

30:07

you could take if you feel like you want to

30:10

kind of go further into research? So

30:12

let's say with the roller coaster example, I could go to a theme park.

30:14

Let's say, I actually haven't gone to the theme park

30:17

nearby, like the Six Flags or whatever, but maybe

30:19

I could write that on there. And if I ever feel like

30:21

up for it, I want to get inspired. It's kind

30:23

of just a nice little checklist of like, play

30:26

a theme park video game. Look

30:29

at some pictures or learn about the mechanics of how

30:31

they build rides.

30:34

But I really like that one. I use that one a lot as far as

30:36

trying to think through, think ahead, what

30:39

can I do to really help me research this

30:41

style of kind

30:42

of project. Yeah, that makes sense. It reminds me of

30:44

my conversation I had a while back with Martin Wallace. And

30:47

whenever he's working on a game, he just immerses himself

30:50

in everything he can find, books,

30:52

documentaries, movies, everything, one,

30:55

to make sure he has a good handle on what he's doing.

30:57

In your example, like the roller coaster game.

30:59

So he'd go out and read every roller coaster book he

31:02

could find. He'd look at all the diagrams and the blueprints

31:04

and all the engineering and all that kind of stuff. One

31:06

to say, OK, here is like the truth. Here's

31:09

an actual factual-based game

31:11

about roller coasters. It's still a game. We're going to have some extra

31:13

abstractions and some fun things, but here's as close

31:15

as I can get it. But also, when you immerse

31:17

yourself, you start finding some really interesting ways

31:20

to bring that thing to life and these little

31:22

minutia things that

31:24

a lot of people maybe don't even notice or they don't even recognize.

31:27

But all of a sudden, you start talking to an expert. And

31:29

especially someone who gets really excited about

31:31

the thing. You're like, oh, let me tell you about all these tiny little

31:34

details you've never noticed. All of a sudden, you can make your

31:36

game more interesting, more real, more

31:38

fun. So I think that's a really good thing

31:40

just to think about. If you have an idea for a game,

31:42

go as deep as you can into

31:45

that topic, because you're going to find these little nuggets

31:47

of wisdom, nuggets of gold, that you can bring to

31:49

life in your game experience. Totally agree. I

31:51

think it's really fun to get into. I think it is

31:54

interesting how someone who gets excited about something

31:56

is interesting. Even if I'm like, I didn't know I love

31:59

roller coaster design.

31:59

until we were standing in line at a theme

32:02

park with a friend and she was like, I read all these,

32:04

these, did you know that they use these rivets and these,

32:06

the way they build it and I was like, huh, I know

32:09

that sounds awesome. I kind of want to go read that.

32:11

It's like you catch the fire of their excitement. And

32:13

so I feel like kind of doing that for yourself

32:16

helps just like, oh, let me go get, you

32:18

know, kind of catch that fire. And then

32:20

use that and try to convert it into my game design

32:23

to get all kind of maybe hopefully there's like a through

32:25

line. And then

32:26

the end of the day when people play it, they feel the same feeling

32:28

you kind of did. Yeah, absolutely. There's

32:30

a book by Donald Miller came out years ago called

32:32

Blue Light Jazz. And part of that

32:35

book is this, this like realization. And

32:37

he talks about jazz. He's like, I didn't like jazz until

32:39

I heard someone who loved it and was good

32:41

at it playing it. And that changed it for

32:43

me. And I was like, Oh man, it's really, how do you

32:45

apply that in other parts of your life? And then how can we kind

32:48

of be conduits for other people,

32:51

right? To help them in life

32:54

in general, right? But especially in our topic here is like

32:56

bringing them into the gaming space.

32:58

How do you do that as a designer? Just, just things to

33:01

think about those moments at the table where

33:03

players are going to interact

33:04

and like

33:05

you want it to feel good. So how do we do that

33:07

effectively? But yeah, it's just things

33:10

again, these are all just things to be thinking about. You don't have to like sit

33:12

down and write a doctor level thesis

33:14

on like all these things for your game, but just things to be aware

33:17

of things to be thinking about as you, as you design.

33:19

And so let's go to the next one design

33:21

vision, which I, I would probably put this one

33:23

first in my head, right? As

33:26

far as like, who are the players? Where are

33:28

they? What are they doing? Like all these kinds of things.

33:30

So tell me the stuff you typically write down with

33:33

your design vision. Is it something

33:35

you start off with as well or tell me about it?

33:37

I do typically start with someone in mind.

33:40

Like I said, there's like different ways to think about it, like an avatar

33:42

or a person or a kind of a market,

33:45

whatever you call it. I like to think of a very specific

33:47

person. So for

33:49

example, this is actually my first game

33:51

is cave game. It turned into galaxy goldmine.

33:54

I actually thought of my mom a lot. I was like, could my

33:56

mother play this? Would she enjoy this?

33:58

Because that was kind of the target audience. I wanted to have

34:00

a family game. And

34:03

so it's funny because I just kind of

34:05

thought of her as the target to think

34:07

on. But actually, to take a step

34:09

back, the design visualized

34:12

thing is I typically will actually kind

34:14

of close my eyes and just try to think,

34:18

build the game out in my head, and what

34:20

are the people around the table look like? Who

34:23

are they? What kind of moments? What are the looks

34:25

on their faces? Is it a very thinky

34:28

war game? And they're kind of smiling with the smirk of

34:30

like, OK, I'm about to do this cool move,

34:32

but it's going to take four turns. Or is it

34:34

a very fast, frantic party game, where everyone's yelling

34:36

and it's just around a couch?

34:39

I find it just useful just to

34:40

kind of see. It's almost like

34:43

you're checking in with yourself, like, how much clarity

34:46

do I have around this vision of a game? Is

34:49

it very clear? Is there things that are fuzzy? I

34:52

just find it like a fun, useful thing. But I think

34:54

to your point, I typically do start

34:57

here in one way or another. This is more

34:59

just like the stop on my list of like, take

35:01

a second and actually just close your eyes and try to

35:03

do this little process. As silly as it probably

35:05

feels, it works really well, I think. Yeah.

35:08

We're going to get back into the whole, begin with the end in mind.

35:11

And if you really think through, who is this

35:13

game for?

35:14

If I'm designing a game for eight rules,

35:17

this is going to be a 10-minute game, 15-minute game. If

35:19

that's the group of people I'm envisioning

35:22

in my mind for this game, it's going to change a whole

35:24

lot about the design space. If

35:26

you can really envision who

35:29

the game's for, the moments they're going to have, that's

35:31

going to determine a whole lot of other stuff,

35:33

whether it's the player count, the play time,

35:36

how deep and complicated the mechanisms

35:38

can be, the price point. So

35:40

if I'm thinking, OK, this is going to be a

35:42

20-minute family game, it can't cost $100.

35:46

So now my component filter

35:48

is going to be different than if I'm designing some kind of big

35:51

epic space opera that's going to take 2

35:53

and 1-1-2 hours to play. Well, OK, that could be $100 and have

35:55

a bunch of really cool miniatures and this big board and all

35:57

these different cards. So.

37:53

Don't

38:00

forget about Bob. Don't forget about Bob. Yeah.

38:03

Because Bob's buying your game. It was like, don't forget about the

38:05

person that you're aiming this whole thing. Hopefully

38:07

it moves Bob when he plays your game. He's

38:09

like, this was made for me. It's what you want. It's

38:12

better.

38:12

I think I've said this several times recently on the podcast, but

38:15

it's better to be someone's favorite game. And

38:18

also, you know, people's the game they don't, they

38:20

never want to see again versus everybody's meh,

38:22

you know, better to be a five star and a one

38:24

star than a whole bunch of threes.

38:27

Because there's actually no money in the middle. There's

38:30

money in, you know, when you're someone's

38:32

favorite. So

38:34

how do you,

38:35

how do you design a game that's going to be Bob's favorite?

38:37

Now are you always going to get there? No, right? It's,

38:39

it's kind of like catching lightning in a bottle, but at least if

38:41

you're aiming at it, right, and you're leaning into

38:44

it and thinking the

38:46

difference between going, okay, this

38:48

is good. It's, you know, it's going to be

38:50

fine. People in general are going to think this is good versus

38:54

people are going to love this. And then some people are going to

38:56

hate it. I think that's a better place to design.

38:59

All right, especially from the marketing side.

39:00

Yeah, I think it's the most fulfilling

39:03

when you hear someone who's like, man, I

39:05

had the moment, you know, you watch play testing, like

39:07

they're having the moment I'm intending them to have. That's

39:10

kind of a magical moment. But of course, that moment you're designing

39:12

is not for everyone. So it's nice

39:14

to, like you said, like, I don't think

39:16

you can, you know, you can't force everyone to be moved

39:18

by an alien movie. I personally was

39:20

I was like, Oh, this is a cool movie. But you

39:22

know, it's like, try to design

39:25

the moment the best you can and know who it's for. But

39:28

ultimately, you're not going to hit everyone's gonna

39:30

not gonna be moved by your your specific

39:32

design. And you don't want them to be,

39:34

you know, I think about like my favorite books over there on the

39:36

shelf, my favorite games of all time. All

39:38

of those have one star reviews on

39:41

Amazon, they all have ones on board game geek, you

39:43

know, where people are like, Oh, this is not for me. I hated it. It's

39:46

like, Oh, but I loved it. It was like one of the best experience I ever had.

39:48

And so I think I think that's just a better place to design

39:51

for. Alright, so design

39:53

motivations. Alright, tell me about

39:56

this. Is this more personal? Right?

40:00

existential as far as your own like

40:02

designer motivations? Yes so

40:04

it in a nutshell it's kind of an

40:06

ego check like you said you being clever

40:09

versus creating something it's mostly just like

40:11

what started why do you want to design this is

40:14

it because you want to experiment with

40:16

a mechanic and try to be a better designer

40:18

by getting your chops you know with this like thing

40:21

is it because you need to make money

40:23

is it like it's mostly just trying to be honest

40:25

yourself and be like what am I trying to do by designing this

40:27

game there's no wrong the right answer it's just

40:29

checking in with yourself and

40:31

so it's nice to know if you're just experimenting

40:34

like oh this game I just want to play around with this like

40:36

could I add this really complicated mechanic

40:39

and will it work because maybe it's not

40:41

meant to be a product you're trying to sell maybe it's just supposed

40:43

to be an exercise so it's

40:46

just a nice check-in see what's going on once

40:48

again I have who who is this for

40:51

again I have it probably in every section

40:53

I don't know why I keep copying and pasting that one but

40:57

because

40:57

you don't have a job

40:59

right right don't forget Bob I

41:01

think my favorite is why does it need to be a physical game

41:04

coming from a little bit of video game industry there's lots

41:07

of media you could do to create experience

41:09

like we did escape room design and video

41:11

games and there's apps and there's all these things something

41:15

I keep my eyes like the medium of board game design

41:17

is kind of magical and why does it

41:19

need to be people in a room physical

41:21

pieces and maybe

41:23

you can't always answer that but it's a nice way to start

41:25

thinking okay so I have a game

41:28

has I'm thinking it might have an

41:30

app but could I delete the app and make it more social

41:32

interaction would that make it more reason

41:35

to be a physical game another

41:37

question I like to ask is like why

41:40

can't this just be an app like does the game I make

41:42

just a better version of an app because you know

41:44

how there's many complicated games out there that

41:46

might be better off for just being like instead

41:49

of having a bajillion pieces I rather

41:51

just be digital so I could just you know play smooth

41:55

it usually always goes around why are people face-to-face

41:57

though I think that's more important to me like what What

42:00

can the game? How

42:03

can the people playing the game interact

42:05

with one another in a meaningful way? So

42:08

that's kind of a nice section of this. It might not even belong in

42:10

design motivations,

42:11

but I like that question a lot. One I might

42:13

add to it, making my own chart,

42:16

is why does this game need to exist at all?

42:20

How is it different enough from every

42:22

other game on the market? How is it

42:24

going to create a new experience?

42:27

Why should this be a thing that I'm going to spend

42:30

a ridiculous amount of time on that

42:32

I'm going to put out into the world for people to

42:34

tear it apart? So

42:37

why should this exist? If I'm just creating another

42:40

generic Euro game that

42:42

I'm just finding another random city in

42:45

some random country and be like, oh, here's Brussels,

42:47

the game. It's like, yeah, but why? Do I have something

42:50

new to say? You know what I mean? Or

42:52

am I just rehashing a bunch

42:54

of other stuff? Not that there's anything wrong with taking

42:56

mechanisms and ideas from other games, but what's

42:59

the hook? What's the spin? How is

43:01

this different? And so I

43:03

think that's one thing I'm always thinking about. Because I don't want to just

43:05

put out something where people are like, oh, this

43:07

is like this other game,

43:09

except not as good. Yeah,

43:12

because lots of games out there, and I always think

43:14

about lots of products that

43:17

exist in the world. Does it need to take up space

43:19

or cut down some trees? It's kind of like, at

43:22

what point does it need to exist? I like

43:24

that. I have, I think, a marketing section that's at the very

43:27

bottom, because I don't want to do marketing

43:29

upfront, because it kind of feels like it. I personally

43:31

think it's like the, you know, that's more of like

43:33

the actual nuts and bolts of how do

43:35

you sell it. So as you

43:38

notice, I start very nebulous. And then hopefully by the

43:40

end of this document, it becomes more

43:42

like player count, time limit, that kind of thing.

43:44

I like this other question you have in there. What excites

43:47

you about the project? I think that's always something to

43:49

remember. It's like, what made you want to design

43:51

this in the first place? What seed

43:53

of an idea was planted that you were

43:55

like, that could be a game. And

43:58

you could do this and you could do that. And that'd be kind of funny. You can intersect

44:00

this and this other thing. And like, what was

44:02

that? Because sometimes either you

44:05

haven't designed yet worked on it for a while. So it's nice to come

44:07

back and go, Oh yeah, that was so cool. But

44:09

also I think it's nice when you're in the grind

44:12

of the 157th playtest and you're

44:14

just like, I am done with this

44:17

game to have that written down

44:19

as a reminder of why you're

44:21

here, right? Uh, just

44:23

to, cause it's what's the old thing. It's talking about

44:25

like marriage. It's like marriage. Isn't

44:28

a one time event. Marriage is something you choose every

44:30

day. Now you have to choose to love your spouse daily.

44:32

It's not one, one time. Um,

44:35

it's, it's, it's ongoing thing. I think the same thing with game

44:37

design and designing. It's like, it's

44:39

an ongoing thing where you have to look back and go, why am I

44:41

doing this? Cause sometimes it's hard and you get 47

44:44

rejections for this game. You know, is good. You

44:46

know, it's fun, but other companies aren't quite

44:49

seeing it yet. And so just

44:51

as a, as a reminder to yourself to have something

44:53

written down, you can go back and look at and go, that's

44:56

right. That's why I'm doing this. Either

44:58

for the game specifically, or just as a designer

45:00

in general, I think some, almost like a mission

45:02

statement you put above your computer

45:05

or something like that. Right. Yeah.

45:08

But, but something more specific though, like that really

45:10

dives into the heart of like the core

45:13

of why you're doing this, you know, to always come

45:15

back to you on those days when you, you know, you've gotten

45:17

your 50th rejection letter in a row or a playtest

45:19

just went off the rails and you're like, wow, that was a

45:21

dumpster fire. But just have something written down. You can

45:23

look at and go, that's right. That's who I

45:26

am. That's why I'm doing this. Let's get up. Let's

45:28

keep going. I think it's just a real.

45:30

I think that yours is very true and

45:32

it's very motivating to see what excites you. I

45:34

also will note on a darker side. Um,

45:37

if you're, this is earlier in the project when you're

45:39

filling this out, if you just sit there and you can't think

45:41

of a reason, it might be a good indicator

45:44

of like, well, maybe I should just work on something

45:46

else or you're not, you're going to not give it as much time

45:48

as I would maybe other projects I'm more excited

45:50

about. Um, cause as you, many

45:53

designers do, you might have a lot of different ideas and

45:55

you're trying to noodle on a lot of them. Um,

45:57

and so this is also a nice stop of like. Am

46:00

I excited? Am I truly excited about this project?

46:02

Do I want to invest time and energy? Because you

46:04

could be doing so many other design projects.

46:07

It's kind of like which one pulls

46:09

you the most. And so it's hard to fill

46:11

out. That's also a great indicator. Yeah. That's

46:13

a really good point. And also,

46:15

what you fill out, is it sustainable

46:18

for the amount of time it's going to take to actually

46:20

get this, to bring this whole project to life?

46:23

If you write down money, you see

46:25

an opportunity in the market. We're like, hey, this is an idea that can

46:27

make a lot of money. Hey, cool. Is

46:29

that enough for you, though? A lot of people,

46:32

money alone is not enough to sustain you through 200

46:34

play tests. He's like, oh, this

46:36

is a lot of money, which let me know your secret

46:38

if that's the case if you're designing games for a lot of money. You're

46:41

like, we're all trying to figure out. Well, everyone gets into game design

46:43

for money. We all know that. There's

46:46

a huge amount of money you can make. Right.

46:49

Plus, so many of us are also teachers, because of all

46:51

the lucrative teaching opportunities out there. I

46:54

have noticed that trend, teacher between designers.

46:56

Random fun fact, my mother was a teacher. My sister's

46:59

a teacher. My dad's a teacher. I'm not

47:01

a teacher, but I'm a game designer. But it's basically

47:03

the same. I wasn't designing games. I'd

47:05

probably be a teacher. It's funny, man. I

47:07

was a teacher for several years while designing

47:09

games. And I don't know. I think the schedule lends itself

47:11

to that. You have instant access

47:14

to play testers. I was teaching high school kids. And so

47:17

they helped me play a lot of my games. Other

47:19

teachers on campus were great for trying

47:22

out games and bouncing around ideas. I think it's

47:24

just a profession that lends itself

47:26

to being able to design games. And also, you're

47:30

used to having to write things down. You're used to having to explain

47:33

things to people.

47:34

So a rules teacher or a writer

47:36

rule book. Definitely overlap, I think.

47:39

You're presenting experience that hopefully

47:41

gets them to learn something. But the game design,

47:43

it could be a different experience.

47:46

I think also, too, fun teachers sometimes do

47:48

game design without knowing it to

47:51

introduce a lesson plan kind of thing. Yeah.

47:53

Finding ways to gamify

47:55

what you're teaching, to get kids

47:57

to learn whether they want to or not. Trick

48:00

them you trick them into learning cuz they're having fun. They're like, oh, what

48:02

are we doing? We're having fun guys as you learn algebra

48:05

or whatever it is. It's just all kind of winds

48:07

in there together

48:09

Let's let's move on to the next one emotional details

48:12

now What in the world do you mean by emotional details?

48:15

So a lot of people say when you design a game

48:17

like what's the core mechanic you go on board you board

48:19

game geek? And it's like what's the core, you know big mechanics

48:21

in this game days, you know, they

48:23

throwing

48:25

worker placement But I noticed when designing

48:27

what's your core emotion? You

48:30

don't have to pick just one but it's like how do the players

48:32

feel and I guess for me This

48:34

is really useful to list out early once again

48:37

just to keep Bob in mind as he said What

48:40

do you want to make him feel because games? It's

48:42

fascinating to me that you can use cardboard and make people

48:44

have Emotions for this cardboard

48:47

you've put together So

48:49

is it supposed to be tension? Is it supposed to be like

48:51

a race of like I'm gonna hurry up Is it a push

48:53

your luck emotion of like ooh, I hope I

48:56

don't break and typically I

48:58

will admit in this Section

49:00

I typically write out

49:01

blows like ah Or

49:06

or wow, that was clever I'll just type out

49:08

kind of like noodlings of

49:09

kind of undertones of emotion through like little

49:12

quotes things like that Or I might just type out scared

49:14

like I want them to be scared or tension or I want

49:17

them to be cozy I know that's a big thing

49:19

like games like wingspan things like that's like I feel

49:21

comfortable and kind of cozy Why we just relax play

49:23

this game

49:24

Yeah,

49:25

it's just nice to have a core emotion in mind

49:27

I don't kind of like with mechanics I don't know

49:29

if every game needs so many layers of all these

49:32

different conflicting emotions It might just be

49:34

nice just to have a game that makes you

49:36

feel connected Or

49:38

have a game that makes you feel tense

49:41

or you know kind of just nice to have a

49:43

Just one to go for as game designers

49:45

and writers and anyone dealing with these kinds of mediums

49:48

We're handling magic in a lot of ways,

49:50

right? Stephen King talks about this a good

49:53

bit He has an excellent book about writing but he talks

49:55

about the magic of being able to write

49:57

down a sentence and

49:59

then That sentence goes out

50:02

into the world somewhere else and someone else who

50:04

he's never met before Reads that sentence

50:06

that he wrote

50:08

and then they have a picture in their mind

50:09

of what it is Now is that picture

50:11

in their mind exactly the picture of Stephen King's mind

50:14

probably not picture in his mind probably a lot scarier but

50:17

this idea that we're able to Transport

50:20

an idea transports a moment

50:22

transport the story

50:24

from

50:25

Where I am here in middle of nowhere, Alabama that

50:27

I could do that, you know to someone

50:29

in

50:31

Middle of nowhere Europe or Australia

50:33

or Africa or wherever

50:34

that's magic Like that's a miracle that

50:36

our brains have the ability to do these things right and

50:39

so to kind of lean into that and like How am I

50:41

going to provide these really cool

50:43

experiences these really cool moments in this

50:45

magical kind of way to create memories? That

50:47

people have that I've never met

50:50

right? I'm never gonna see these people I'm

50:52

helping to make memories in their own lives and they're with

50:54

their family and friends and There's nothing

50:56

to think about it's like people talk They

50:59

don't they don't talk mechanically typically, right

51:01

if I'm playing a game and I'm remembering

51:04

what happened I don't say Leo.

51:06

Hey, man Remember remember that time I rolled

51:08

two dice and you rolled four dice and I moved some

51:10

green cubes and you moved some blue cubes Wouldn't that cool

51:13

like no it's hey remember that time where

51:15

my army was outnumbered Two to one

51:17

and then we found a way to overcome and and you were

51:19

trying to take over my country But I didn't do it. I

51:22

pushed you out and I ended up taking over your country Like that's

51:24

how we talk we talk it's like real terms

51:26

All right And to think through how can you

51:28

create those moments for people to have those memories and

51:30

to share those like those stories

51:32

in? Interesting ways. I don't know. It's

51:34

just fun to like think about that and then turn

51:36

it into reality

51:38

That's exactly one of the I think it's the third question

51:40

now It's like what memories will players share about your game

51:42

because I do the same thing It's like oh man, we

51:44

how many almost weird we almost got on this time

51:46

It was a co-op game or how we get

51:48

so close every time and I want to play again

51:51

But we're gonna lose again, or it's kind

51:53

of like I said like saying it out loud That's

51:55

why I kind of type typically write it stream of consciousness

51:58

in this section because people don't talk like I

52:00

felt scared playing that game. Like

52:02

they might say like, oh, I remember that time it was kind

52:04

of creepy. And like we almost, you

52:06

know, like I couldn't know if you were the killer or not.

52:09

I didn't know. And then there's this kind of big moment. So

52:11

once again, a little nebulous. But I find it really

52:14

useful just to try to tag a key moment. And

52:16

I actually even have a printout of like

52:18

a feelings list. You know, there's like that like a motion

52:20

wheel. You can go online and type in emotion

52:22

wheel. Sometimes if you want to get inspired

52:24

to just design a game emotion first, that

52:26

can be fun. Just pick a, let's see.

52:29

Is there a good game that can make someone feel grateful?

52:33

I don't know. It's an interesting prompt.

52:35

So it's kind of fun to start there sometimes. Yeah,

52:37

for sure. Reminded of the original

52:40

Pandemic Legacy. Pandemic Legacy

52:43

season one by Matt Leacock and Rob Gavio. And

52:45

to hear them talk about it, because there's this, I don't remember which month

52:48

of the year. Because the idea is that you play through 12 months,

52:50

January through December. 12 sessions

52:53

of the game is kind of the idea. And

52:55

one of the months, there's a big twist. I can't

52:57

remember which month. I'm just going to say September. But

53:00

there are people that will walk up to Matt or Rob

53:02

and just look at them and go, September.

53:06

Freaking September. And just like in this realization.

53:08

And they know what happened in this experience

53:11

and this memory that was created around the table. And they only

53:13

have to use one word to do it. And

53:15

that's such a cool thing. And you can design for

53:17

that. Even if you're designing mechanical

53:20

abstract games, you have those moments where

53:22

people look at you and go, huh,

53:25

that thing that you did, hmm, caused

53:28

some dissent in my house between

53:30

me and my spouse. You know, like whatever it is. That's

53:32

what I love about the risk strike

53:35

game is like, man, we still, this game makes

53:37

us fight just as much as the other risk does. I'm like,

53:39

cool. That's what we're going for. Yeah,

53:42

exactly. That same experience, but in a

53:44

streamlined. I like the way you said it, an espresso shot

53:46

of risk. I think that's a good way to say it. All

53:49

right. Moving to the next one. We got player types. And

53:51

now this seems to be the player type

53:53

from Magic the Gathering. Is that right? Yep. And so this is

53:55

a perfect example of how I will, as I

53:58

learn things, I'll just like, hey, that's useful.

53:59

let me keep that in mind and I'll copy

54:02

and paste it. So this is from Mark Groswater. It's just

54:04

a like Timmy Jimmy Spike framework,

54:07

which is like, think of these archetype players

54:09

and how they'll deal with your game. And

54:12

so we don't have to go deep on that, but it's a really cool

54:14

resource. And I found it useful. So I just put it

54:16

in my pillars of design, just

54:18

to see just like, oh, yeah, in my brain,

54:21

keep in mind, people want to be, you know,

54:23

they want to experience or maybe they want to express themselves

54:25

or maybe they want to compete. How

54:28

does your game work in that framework? And so it's

54:30

just kind of a quick pulse check of

54:33

keep these three player types in mind and think how

54:35

that changes your design

54:38

decisions. Right. Also, how

54:40

can you make sure you're playtesting with these people in

54:42

mind? Because if you don't have one of these types

54:45

in your group, then you got to do it superficially

54:47

because they're these people exist, right? And so there's

54:49

gonna be a certain percentage of people that play your game

54:52

that don't care about winning, that only want to do stuff

54:54

that's cool. Okay, well, how do you design with that in mind? There's

54:56

some people that don't care about anything cool.

54:59

They're just trying to min max everything to get the most

55:01

victory points to win the game. Okay, let's think about the

55:03

game from their perspective. Rob D'Avio recently

55:05

in a podcast I did with him, he talked about how he

55:07

assigns color, like,

55:09

you know, get the red player and the blue player, player, the purple,

55:12

whatever, he will assign a player type to

55:14

that color as he's playtesting, especially

55:17

by himself, you know, so he's going to be the red player for

55:19

this round. Okay, well, the red player wants

55:21

to do cool combos and wants to like, really push

55:23

the game limits, right? See what happens,

55:26

not so much worried about winning. Okay, blue over here,

55:28

min max and everything going to try to win purple

55:31

over here doesn't want to win. She

55:33

just wants you to lose. So she's going to do everything

55:35

to kind of troll you and mess with you like put you know, push

55:37

you in different directions. But assigning color,

55:40

that makes it easier to kind of keep in your head

55:42

as a designer, like what you're doing, and

55:44

just remember, right? But even, even

55:46

if you go to a playtest night, you can say, hey,

55:49

okay, can you help me out by playing the

55:51

game this way, right? Especially if

55:53

you don't have those certain types that you're really trying to stress

55:56

test the game for. I think that's a cool way,

55:58

cool way to do it. Just again, keeping these of people in mind.

56:01

I will give a quick shout out to a thanks of the

56:03

Austin Board Game Design Group. They have

56:06

lots of different variety of people so I'm

56:08

lucky enough to have an outlet that we have a

56:10

couple of min maxes, we have a couple people

56:13

who want to like I'm personally the kind of person who just I

56:15

just want to play and experience it. Of course if you can't

56:17

tell by this talk I just want to feel

56:19

the game and try to experiment and

56:21

then of course we have our you know min maxes

56:23

and so it's really nice to have those

56:26

in mind. But once again maybe

56:28

your game you intentionally don't mind

56:31

if it's not that you know if you can't express

56:33

your sights maybe it doesn't need that many layers. But

56:37

yeah there's a fun little pit stop on the way

56:39

on this list of like just keep those guys in mind

56:41

see how it looks through those lenses. Well also

56:44

from a bigger perspective as far as this document

56:46

is concerned and anyone wanting to make a document like

56:48

this to realize it's a living document.

56:51

You're going to change it, it's going to ebb and flow, you're going to add to it, you're

56:53

going to take away depending on where you're at and your design

56:55

level and skills and things that you're learning and things like that. You

56:57

know books that you read podcasts you listen to you're like oh that's

56:59

cool let me add this question in there. That's the point

57:01

that's right to continue this document

57:03

to help you become a better designer making

57:06

better games. Definitely has gotten a little

57:08

bloated over the years but I mean it's useful information

57:10

I don't want to delete but ultimately it started

57:12

off I think with like three sections and now

57:15

it's like 12. So yeah

57:17

but also not feeling like you have to answer

57:20

every single question like it's just it's

57:22

something to

57:23

help you it's a tool in your toolbox

57:25

right not something that you have to have as a crutch but

57:27

something that you can you know help you along

57:30

in your your process. All right the next one story

57:32

details right so some of the things

57:34

we've talked about a little bit before so tell me

57:37

tell me why these things are here and how they're maybe

57:39

a little bit different from some of the other sections.

57:41

Sure so before it was all about like what's the

57:43

moments you want to create the you know who you're going

57:45

for this is now actually getting to the nitty-gritty of like

57:47

what is the narrative arc of your game play

57:50

like what are the characters in your game who are

57:53

the players playing as or who

57:55

what why kind of thing so it's like using

57:58

the let's say the roller coaster

57:59

game, for example.

58:01

Just defining, like you as a player

58:03

will be taking control of a company,

58:07

person building roller coasters, who are you, you

58:09

know, and then how is your narrative art going

58:12

to change of the game. And so it's kind of

58:14

just thinking very much like a movie script, the

58:16

whole like, either hero's journey or just like,

58:19

how does it end narratively, does it end

58:21

with the park is built and you're satisfied

58:23

because the park is finished and you as the designer

58:26

have the most points. So it's

58:28

just kind of now getting into like,

58:30

going from high concept to like, okay, the game actually

58:32

has the I like to think in

58:34

act three acts, like act one,

58:36

set up,

58:37

figuring out your game, making a strategy act

58:40

two, you know, we're in the middle of the game, how is it tense

58:42

and what is it? Why you kind of have that momentum?

58:44

And then act three is like, it's close, but

58:47

how did I win? How does the story

58:49

resolve itself? And not

58:51

every game has to be this narrative epic,

58:54

even like simple games, I feel like have

58:56

a pretty, like nice narrative,

58:59

like the whole risk strike example, you

59:01

start building your continents, you decide the sets you

59:04

want to collect, you have a couple of battles, it

59:06

escalates by one player becoming kind of more

59:08

in control, everyone kind of tries to team up, take them down,

59:11

there's this like last minute, like, do they rush to take

59:13

it and win? Or is it like, power is

59:15

quickly swapped and distributed? Now, I

59:18

wouldn't say a great movie, but has the beats,

59:21

I think of progression. Yeah, it can also

59:23

help from a design standpoint of thinking, okay,

59:26

in act two, I want these kinds

59:28

of things to happen. Right? So does that mean

59:30

new things become available, maybe new, you

59:33

know, piles of tokens or piles

59:35

of cars, whatever, now those are open, and players

59:37

can start leaning into that. If you think about games that kind

59:40

of you set up a deck, where you have level

59:42

one, level two, level three, enemies

59:44

or something like that, you're, again, you're thinking through

59:46

the the act structure, how the game is going

59:48

to play out over a certain amount of time. One

59:51

could be mechanical, because you don't want a level one player

59:53

fighting a level 10 monster that's just going to destroy

59:56

them, right? That's not fun. So you want the players

59:58

to level up as the monsters level up. So anyway,

1:00:00

there's lots of reasons you can think about that,

1:00:02

both mechanically and just narratively, but yeah,

1:00:04

it makes a lot of sense to be thinking about those things

1:00:06

because the players are gonna experience it in

1:00:09

those ways. The two quick takeaways, just I

1:00:11

find the most too useful questions in the section is

1:00:13

who are you? That's a nice one. And then also

1:00:15

how do you change? Because every good story has

1:00:17

character development or change, you know, like, oh,

1:00:19

I start off as the grumpy old man, by the end of the movie,

1:00:23

I'm in love with this dog I found. So

1:00:25

I think of that, like it doesn't have to be exactly always that,

1:00:28

but like how will the players have their story

1:00:30

and how will they change? So

1:00:32

some might keep in mind. All right, the next one, a little

1:00:34

more self-explanatory, mechanical details. Okay,

1:00:37

we're talking player count, we're talking

1:00:39

difficulty, the game length, the

1:00:41

specific mechanisms in there. So

1:00:43

I mean, that's kind of stuff people would expect from

1:00:46

a document like this, but anything you wanna add

1:00:48

or really highlight as far as the mechanics.

1:00:51

Oh, no, kinda like many of these

1:00:53

other podcasts, there's lots of great advice on like, you

1:00:55

know, how many players you want, it's really useful to have

1:00:57

upfront, kind of your nuts and bolts. And

1:00:59

one I do like on here is difficulty to

1:01:01

learn the rules. I think of BGG a lot,

1:01:04

as like the weight, like, oh, how,

1:01:06

what is the like weight of this game? And

1:01:09

mostly not from the whole game, because I find

1:01:11

that a little hard to visualize how the whole game

1:01:13

is gonna be complex or not, but just like learning

1:01:15

the rules, how's that on-ramping gonna be? Is

1:01:17

it, do you want it fast? Do you want it like, do

1:01:19

you don't mind it being a little longer because the game is

1:01:22

worth that? I find that probably

1:01:24

one of the most slightly different questions

1:01:26

in here, but everything else is

1:01:28

pretty standard, core mechanics that you want, you

1:01:31

know, difficulty, you learn the rules, gameplay length,

1:01:33

that kind of thing. Yeah, definitely.

1:01:34

The next one though, is something I think more

1:01:37

designers need to be aware of as far as gameplay details.

1:01:40

And a couple that really stand out are, how

1:01:42

much luck versus skill is

1:01:44

in the game? Because that is a lever you really have

1:01:46

to pay attention to as a designer. How

1:01:48

long is this game? If it's a two hour game, you

1:01:50

gotta limit how much luck is in the game, right? Because

1:01:52

if I have a bunch of bad die rolls that destroy me

1:01:55

early, and there's no way for me to catch up because

1:01:57

of the dice, right, not because of any decisions I

1:01:59

made, it's now, I've... We just got to sit there for the last 45 minutes

1:02:01

and kind of play out this thing and I already know what I was gonna

1:02:03

End that's not super fun. Right? So thinking through that

1:02:06

Also, what we're what are players gonna do on

1:02:08

excuse me? Why will other players care

1:02:11

when it's not their turn? I think that's another thing to

1:02:13

think about what's the downtime like cuz

1:02:15

a lot of times we were so excited and you give players these Cool

1:02:17

combos they can do all these things on their turn Yeah, and

1:02:19

then their turn takes 15 minutes and

1:02:22

so everybody else at the table is like gotten

1:02:24

up They're making a sandwich. They're checking the the weather

1:02:26

like okay, that doesn't create a good experience

1:02:28

So some things to think about

1:02:29

what else really stands out to you in

1:02:32

in this section Of course is the classic

1:02:34

what choices will the players make but

1:02:36

I agree I think the luck and skill winner funds

1:02:39

because you know We typically

1:02:41

work with mass market and mass market likes a little more

1:02:43

luck as we found Of course gamer

1:02:45

hobbyists like a little more, you know, they control the game

1:02:48

So I'm just thinking of that lever and how that works

1:02:51

What interactions will the players have is probably

1:02:53

one of my favorites? Because once

1:02:56

again one of my missions is like if I'm designing

1:02:58

a board game I want people to be there face to face. I

1:03:00

think interactions a must for me I think it's

1:03:02

like that's the reason I like playing board games is I

1:03:05

get to look at my friend and be like either Hey,

1:03:07

we did it. Good job. High five or I'm

1:03:09

totally winning. You're not gonna catch up

1:03:11

either way. There's that moment of connection

1:03:13

So interactions through the gameplay is

1:03:16

important to think of

1:03:18

Just like will the players have light

1:03:20

interaction? Well, they may be even this

1:03:22

is not a mechanic But will they even just like cozy

1:03:24

talk to each other why their turns are not going

1:03:27

like, you know It's okay for games not

1:03:29

always to have this take that or as long as

1:03:31

you just keep that in mind It's a nice, you

1:03:33

know, once again just something nice to jog

1:03:35

your memory of like interactions important Can

1:03:38

you design for it or is it just a thing

1:03:40

that's gonna happen that you can't control? Definitely

1:03:42

and also just to help you be intentional, right if this is

1:03:44

the game you're trying to design Well, let's

1:03:47

write that down and then be intentional about how we're going

1:03:49

to make that happen makes a lot of sense All

1:03:51

right. Next couple ones really get more into the business

1:03:53

side the things we got visual details

1:03:56

and then we'll get into marketing details.

1:03:58

So Tell me your thoughts Your thought

1:04:00

process as a designer you're not a publisher, right?

1:04:02

You're reaching out to other companies You know you have you

1:04:05

and your design studio two of your friends

1:04:07

that you're kind of making games and then pitching To

1:04:10

some pretty good companies, right? Uh, but you're not

1:04:12

doing it yourself So tell me about why

1:04:15

why do you have these more business side of things

1:04:17

in this document? Versus just letting

1:04:19

you know

1:04:20

letting those companies figure it out themselves. So,

1:04:23

um I mean, yeah, we like to pitch to publishers

1:04:25

because we like to you know, we started off We're like, oh we just

1:04:27

want to be game designers and so we're gonna pitch

1:04:30

let the publisher do most of business But I

1:04:32

mean we've we've found that you know If you can

1:04:34

speak the language of a publisher and you already thought

1:04:37

through a couple things goes a long way As

1:04:39

far as I think them just being responsive to

1:04:41

you is like oh, they know what they're talking about They've they've

1:04:44

thought of us for example with like You

1:04:46

know the clue series we did we did a lot of research on clue

1:04:49

We thought as well as they did as far as like

1:04:52

how would it market will escape rooms

1:04:54

be palatable to your average, you know Bob

1:04:57

Did well bob want to play our escape room. What does he think

1:04:59

an escape room is? That kind

1:05:02

of stuff is just useful for us to Not

1:05:04

only help connect with the publisher and do a little

1:05:06

bit of legwork, but also design

1:05:09

with intention once again

1:05:11

Help filter your decisions So

1:05:14

good example is we we thought early the escape

1:05:17

room game is it is

1:05:19

it going to be a card-based system

1:05:21

like kind of like exits or something like that where you

1:05:23

just have to You know, there's these games

1:05:25

that like come and there's like everything is available

1:05:27

to you open the packet as these documents And

1:05:30

you have to solve it, but that has a pretty high

1:05:32

like You have to take everything read

1:05:34

it all so Can

1:05:36

you market it to like, you know average

1:05:39

bob? We need to make it like uh, you know

1:05:41

Like a board game because he knows what a board game is like

1:05:43

a move to this spot that would connect

1:05:46

more and so Anyway, just thinking

1:05:48

with the publisher kind of alongside them

1:05:51

has been really useful for us Right as

1:05:53

far as visual details. What kind of artwork

1:05:55

is necessary? How many assets are you gonna

1:05:57

need? You know how many miniatures if you need miniatures?

1:06:00

You use wooden, you know pawns

1:06:02

instead. Do you really need a plastic mini?

1:06:04

Like is that really vital to the game experience?

1:06:07

Does it make it more of a toy all those

1:06:09

different things to think about because that's exactly what the publisher

1:06:11

is going to be Thinking about maybe

1:06:13

Like right after thinking about the idea they're like wait

1:06:15

how much is gonna cost of manufacturing? Right so

1:06:18

like if you're gonna sell it that you have to think

1:06:20

ahead with them because otherwise you've you've

1:06:22

done all this work And then you realize oh, yeah, I

1:06:24

sent that thing off It cost me a lot of money to send to the

1:06:26

publisher in time And I only got really

1:06:29

one shot to show them and I forgot that

1:06:31

all these pieces cost so much money Like and

1:06:34

they kind of are turned off to that. So the list of

1:06:36

the more The

1:06:38

basically less load you can take off the publisher

1:06:40

that more likely Hopefully they'll hear you out and

1:06:42

maybe move on with your product or your concept

1:06:45

Yeah, that makes sense and then going into the marketing side,

1:06:47

you

1:06:48

know again to design

1:06:50

with intention to design Thinking

1:06:52

about how we're gonna market it. What's the hook gonna

1:06:54

be? What's gonna draw players in what's gonna look

1:06:57

good on Instagram all those things that just makes everything

1:07:00

Makes everything easier to design because then you can get

1:07:02

focused right but also

1:07:05

Trying to think through

1:07:08

Why right especially if you're gonna pitch this Either

1:07:11

way right either you're pitching to publishers and then they're

1:07:13

gonna pitch it to Consumers or you're

1:07:15

a publisher gonna pitch it to consumers either way you're pitching to

1:07:17

consumers It's just a matter of hike how far

1:07:20

removed are you right and sing thinking through

1:07:22

why should they care right? This is an investment

1:07:26

It's investment of time and money and

1:07:28

what's the return on that investment going to

1:07:31

be right? That's really what marketing is It's

1:07:33

it's letting people know that

1:07:35

however much money and time they put into this

1:07:37

product that they're gonna get a return

1:07:40

out of it That's gonna be worth it. It's gonna be more

1:07:42

valuable than whatever you put in right?

1:07:44

It's simple ROI in a lot of ways That's what marketing that's

1:07:46

what you're trying to do. That's what a Kickstarter campaign page

1:07:49

is, right? The people that go there They go back your

1:07:51

game ninety nine point nine nine nine nine percent of those

1:07:53

people have never played it unless they were in your little

1:07:55

Group of play testers, but you should be given those people free

1:07:57

games Anyway, so they shouldn't be back in your campaign lists for a dollar

1:08:00

Right, but you know for the most

1:08:02

part people are seeing a thing that you're trying

1:08:04

to convince them is going to be worth Whatever

1:08:07

the cost is same thing pitching to a publisher

1:08:09

right you're saying here's our idea. Here's the game

1:08:11

Here's how it plays it is a worthy investment

1:08:14

that you were going to get a return on and

1:08:16

then we want x percent of that return

1:08:19

so thinking that And

1:08:21

it's a bare bones, right? So when you have those things

1:08:23

written down right with the price point the

1:08:26

hook the the demographic

1:08:28

of people That would be interested

1:08:30

in this game how much money that

1:08:32

demographic of people have right? So

1:08:34

if you're this is why designing kids

1:08:36

games It can be smart because you're designing games

1:08:39

not for kids but for parents to buy right

1:08:41

and uncles and grandparents, right? Thinking through that

1:08:43

right. It's not the kid that's gonna see it on the shelf

1:08:46

necessarily It's grandmom who's

1:08:48

walking through the store looking for a birthday gift and she's like, oh

1:08:50

that looks interesting Yeah, I think little

1:08:52

Susie would love this so thinking do that

1:08:54

So anyway, that's that's gonna remind my mind goes with

1:08:57

the marketing things What are some of the other things you're

1:08:59

thinking about? You got a lot of this is one of the bigger sections You

1:09:01

got a lot of stuff going on. Yeah, so tell me some of the highlights

1:09:04

So I think just a real quick overview

1:09:06

I think marketing also if you can fill this out it

1:09:08

also helps you with your pitch to the publisher So

1:09:10

you basically have a blueprint for how you want to pitch

1:09:12

it? It's a it's a this game, but

1:09:14

there's a hook but also it's it's going

1:09:16

to be this much You know to cost and I

1:09:18

imagine it's for this target audience and I think they

1:09:21

really like that I mean just make it easier

1:09:23

to pitch helps you out kind

1:09:25

of keep focused Um, so executives

1:09:27

aren't necessarily creatives. Right, right?

1:09:30

Like they're not they're not a game designer They're just

1:09:32

like I mean a lot of publishers

1:09:34

are but As you said, it's like

1:09:36

you're you need to speak the language of marketing

1:09:39

so that the marketing team can get on board. Otherwise

1:09:43

I mean i've been guilty of this where i've started a

1:09:45

game pitch and i'm like, oh, but the mechanics are so

1:09:47

cool It's just like, you know kind

1:09:49

of goes over their heads and you're like, oh It

1:09:52

just helps kind of speak the lingo and put

1:09:54

on different glasses to look at the game from different perspectives

1:09:57

Um, I would say there's a lot here, but I think the two I really

1:09:59

like is pre-hook, which we've probably

1:10:01

talked a lot, but it's always good to reiterate like, what's

1:10:03

the wow factor? When you pitch your game,

1:10:06

what is the like, oh, I'm interested. And

1:10:08

usually it's, I found the formula is mostly something

1:10:11

familiar and something unfamiliar. It's

1:10:13

like, oh, you like, you like Clue. Have

1:10:16

you ever thought of a Clue escape room? And

1:10:18

so it's like, you know, I know what this is.

1:10:20

And what's that? So that's the

1:10:23

pre-hook. My favorite that I've recently learned,

1:10:25

I actually have to admit is the post-hook. What

1:10:28

is after playing the game, people

1:10:31

are going to be like, wow, I want to play that again. Or,

1:10:33

oh, hey, Gabe, you got to play this

1:10:35

game because there's either

1:10:38

a mechanic or like, man, it had like, you,

1:10:40

it felt like so crazy to play and they had

1:10:42

this fun progression. And so just

1:10:44

those two are nice to try to think

1:10:46

of. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I like that post-hook idea

1:10:49

though.

1:10:49

Right? What are the story, and we talked about story already, but like,

1:10:51

what are the stories people are going to tell? And

1:10:54

then how are you going to get people to tell

1:10:56

their friends about it? Right? Because once it's

1:10:58

one thing to see a Facebook ad from a

1:11:00

company that says, hey, buy this game. That's

1:11:02

one thing. It's a whole other thing to see

1:11:05

your friend who you trust post about a

1:11:07

game and say, this is a great experience. Check

1:11:09

out the pictures, check out the TikTok, whatever. Like

1:11:11

which one of those do you trust more? You know what I mean? And

1:11:13

so how can you get people talking about your game

1:11:16

in a way that's positive and gets other people to go, Oh,

1:11:18

that sounds interesting. Let me get a

1:11:20

copy of that too. Or Hey, make sure you bring that game to

1:11:22

game night and let's check it out. I want to see it myself.

1:11:25

How can you design with that in mind? And how can

1:11:27

you pitch with that in mind, either pitching

1:11:30

to publishers or pitching to, you know,

1:11:32

consumers on Kickstarter, wherever, just

1:11:35

thinking through, right? All this plays into it. And a lot

1:11:37

of times, honestly, when you see those games online

1:11:39

that have a million dollars, right? They've made a million

1:11:41

bucks on crowdfunding and

1:11:42

you're like, how in the world

1:11:44

it's because they've gotten this right.

1:11:47

They figured it out. It's not because the game

1:11:49

is amazing. Nobody's played it. It's

1:11:51

on crowdfunding. It doesn't technically really exist

1:11:54

yet. Right? So what it means is they've

1:11:56

done an excellent job at the marketing

1:11:58

side of things. As far as like getting to look

1:12:00

at the value, look at the cost, look at the investment,

1:12:02

all these things, and for them to look at that entire

1:12:04

equation and go, this is something I

1:12:07

need to have. Okay, how do they

1:12:09

do that?

1:12:09

What does that look like? And then start breaking that down. Super

1:12:12

helpful. So there's a lot going on, but I think

1:12:14

the other one that's useful is with the two-sentence

1:12:16

pitch. You don't always have

1:12:18

to fill that out, but if you filled out a lot of these other ones, you could

1:12:20

probably, you know, come up with one. Or,

1:12:23

oppositely, if you're just starting on a game

1:12:25

and you're like, you know what, I'm gonna start with the two-sentence pitch first.

1:12:27

Like you said, Eric Lang did the, it's Cthulhu,

1:12:29

but you can shoot him in the face. That might be his pitch

1:12:31

and that also might be the inverted,

1:12:34

start with marketing, then design backwards. But

1:12:37

yeah, it's just fun to think

1:12:39

about all these. And once again, I usually don't

1:12:41

fill them all out, but it's nice

1:12:43

to think of. No, I think that's one,

1:12:46

especially, maybe not right off the

1:12:48

bat, but definitely like midway through the design

1:12:50

process. You need to be able to fill that one out. I

1:12:53

think it's Einstein who said, if you can't

1:12:55

explain something simply, then you don't

1:12:57

understand it. Right? So if you can't boil

1:12:59

your game down into two sentences

1:13:02

and it really explained what the game is, then

1:13:05

you maybe don't quite understand

1:13:07

the game you're making yet. Not that you won't eventually,

1:13:10

but you need to be able to, it's that elevator

1:13:12

pitch thing, right? Where you can kind

1:13:14

of

1:13:15

concisely put the game into a handful of words

1:13:18

and get people to go, oh, that sounds

1:13:20

interesting. Tell me more, or I want to play that.

1:13:22

Right? And so I think that's super important. Right.

1:13:24

Also too, something I've learned from the prototype

1:13:27

group here is actually testing

1:13:29

your pitch out. Like you test your game, you

1:13:31

test your game all the time. So why not go around

1:13:34

and tell your friends your two sentence pitch, just see their

1:13:36

face. Do they go, oh, that's kind

1:13:38

of cool. Or did they go,

1:13:40

sweet.

1:13:40

You know, it's kind of a, it's

1:13:43

a subtle thing, but it's easy to say two sentences to

1:13:45

somebody, just see if they resonate with it.

1:13:47

It's like you can play test your pitch. It

1:13:49

also kind of, you know, play test

1:13:51

is your game hook and you can always kind of change that

1:13:54

as you go.

1:13:54

Yeah, absolutely. All right. Coming into

1:13:57

the last one here, design

1:13:59

outlets. So what do you mean? So

1:14:01

this is,

1:14:02

we were talking about this earlier before, but it was just

1:14:04

like the outlets I found really dictate

1:14:07

what I design. So for example, we have

1:14:09

our foot in the door with Hasbro and that's great and

1:14:11

I love that relationship and so I want to keep pitching

1:14:13

to them. But they're definitely an outlet that I have

1:14:15

in mind when I design, like it's mass market, they're

1:14:18

looking for certain types of games for a certain type of audience.

1:14:21

And so it's nice to just think of what

1:14:23

is your design outlets? Like I have a play test

1:14:26

group that we can play usually for about an hour.

1:14:29

So is that dictating my kind of like this

1:14:31

game needs to be about an hour? Where

1:14:34

can you get feedback? I think it's for

1:14:36

myself, it's really crucial to have

1:14:38

the energy kind of like here's a game, I share it,

1:14:41

I get feedback. As you

1:14:43

always say, like keep play testing is very

1:14:45

crucial. So it's more just taking stock

1:14:47

of where are you, where are you play

1:14:49

testing? Who are you playing with? How is that

1:14:51

going to kind of, how can you set

1:14:53

that up for this project? So

1:14:56

I'm making an alien game. It's a space epic. Do

1:14:58

I have friends that like aliens and want

1:15:01

to play for two hours? If not, could

1:15:03

I set this up? What kind

1:15:05

of feedback can I get from them? What do I need? It's

1:15:08

kind of just a checklist of what

1:15:10

you need to do next steps to have

1:15:12

an outlet for your game or your project. And also

1:15:15

hopefully helps you start thinking outside the box of,

1:15:17

you

1:15:17

know, I've got my normal play test group that come, you know, we come

1:15:19

together on Tuesday nights at 7pm. Okay,

1:15:21

but this game, man, this game is kind

1:15:24

of like magic. It's got some interesting magic elements

1:15:27

to it. What, what nights

1:15:29

does my friendly local game store run their

1:15:31

magic tournaments? Okay, maybe I could go there like

1:15:34

an hour early, hang out with some of the people there like

1:15:36

the OGs that love magic and like maybe get their thoughts

1:15:38

on this. Oh, that's interesting. Or what are some of the Facebook

1:15:40

communities that, you know, play

1:15:42

these kinds of games? Maybe I could get in with

1:15:44

some of those and see if some of those folks would

1:15:46

want to hop on tabletop simulator and play this again.

1:15:49

Like you start thinking outside your normal,

1:15:52

you know, trying to think the stuff you normally

1:15:54

do, right? And opening up to new

1:15:57

ideas. And then all of a sudden the game gets

1:15:59

better because you're pushing the limits of your

1:16:01

playtesting in your design space. Yeah,

1:16:03

so you get to meet new people and get new perspectives.

1:16:05

It's always refreshing and inspiring

1:16:07

when you get new playtesters. But

1:16:10

also, yeah, I guess what I was trying to say is both either

1:16:12

go find new playtesters or recognize

1:16:15

that you, like you said, you

1:16:17

had only kind of like yourself, so you

1:16:19

made a solo game and just recognizing that

1:16:21

that's your kind of outlet is

1:16:24

really useful because it helps you once again, just make a

1:16:26

choice. Should I make a five-hour epic?

1:16:28

I don't really have the group for it. Maybe

1:16:30

not. Or I need to go find the

1:16:32

group for it. So that's

1:16:35

just kind of what this is about. And there's a

1:16:37

lot of random questions in here, but it's like,

1:16:39

mostly that's what it's about in the whole

1:16:41

thing. Yeah, leaning into your

1:16:44

situation to set yourself up for success. As

1:16:46

you just alluded to, I got to a place in my designing

1:16:49

where I didn't really have access to

1:16:51

people in the pandemic was going

1:16:53

on, like all these different things that just kind of pushed me more

1:16:55

and more into solo design games,

1:16:58

you know, designing solo games. And

1:17:00

I just went with it. You know, I didn't like, like,

1:17:02

no, I'm going to design three-hour euros, dad,

1:17:05

gummett, like my situation, they

1:17:07

would have been setting myself up for failure. Now,

1:17:09

could I have found a way to do some different?

1:17:11

Yeah, maybe probably if it had been that important, but I

1:17:14

just found that I really enjoyed solo games. And

1:17:16

so it's like, let's just do this and let's see what happens. So

1:17:18

I think that's another thing is just

1:17:20

not trying,

1:17:22

not trying to go against the grain too much.

1:17:25

As a creative person, like see what gets you into flow, see

1:17:27

what gets you into that design space in an exciting

1:17:29

place, and then just lean, lean into it

1:17:31

and go with it. If you don't have a group that can play

1:17:33

three-hour games, don't design three-hour games. It's

1:17:36

just kind of that simple. Basically, I think I

1:17:39

very much believe we're a product of our environment. So

1:17:41

what environment are you in? Can you get

1:17:43

to the table, that kind of thing? Yeah, definitely.

1:17:46

I mean, this has been excellent. Any kind of like closing

1:17:48

thoughts you want to leave people with, like I said, I'll put

1:17:50

the link to this document in

1:17:52

the show notes of the episode. And so if you want to take

1:17:54

it out for themselves and pull

1:17:57

ideas from it, do it. Again, we're not saying.

1:17:59

Hey, here's your thing. It's gonna fix everything.

1:18:02

No, this is just an idea something that has worked That

1:18:04

might work for you, you know, make it your own figure

1:18:07

it out. But what would be your closing thoughts? Sure

1:18:10

I think the only closing thought I had is just that game

1:18:13

designs and multi-class skill so I

1:18:15

know we talked about like kind of emotions

1:18:18

and trying to figure out target audiences and things like that,

1:18:20

but just Something I keep in mind for

1:18:22

myself is just to try to experience

1:18:24

new things and try to go out and gather new

1:18:27

kind of Information even if it is not

1:18:29

always from the game design Sphere

1:18:32

or the playing game sphere. Maybe go just

1:18:35

try something random kind of introduce some random

1:18:37

Notes and you never know what might happen. Yeah,

1:18:39

absolutely. So I know rush, excuse

1:18:41

me risk strike just came out And

1:18:44

so tell me where people can find it where they can find

1:18:47

some of the other games I guess most your stuff sold in like

1:18:49

target and whatnot So that's kind of

1:18:51

nice but anything else you want to tell people of

1:18:53

course So we have a couple clue

1:18:55

escape room games at Target Risk

1:18:57

strikes on Amazon target what I would

1:18:59

like to shout out to is there's a game called D&D Dungeon

1:19:02

dragons Bedlam in Neverwinter

1:19:04

that is a escape room Dungeons

1:19:06

and Dragons game Where you get to play

1:19:08

as characters who are solving puzzles But also

1:19:11

combat and also it's light enough

1:19:13

to where you could play with your friends who are not say

1:19:16

D&D experts It's very much an on-ramping

1:19:19

kind of like my first D&D experience, but you get

1:19:21

to solve puzzles

1:19:22

Really proud of that one. But

1:19:24

yeah, thanks Gabe I mean you guys can check out

1:19:26

the games anywhere, but I appreciate you

1:19:28

having me on and just letting me share my kind of Huge

1:19:31

document of nebulous ideas, but

1:19:33

hopefully they're they're helpful to someone. Yeah, absolutely

1:19:35

Thank you so much for being here really appreciate all this excellent

1:19:38

information