0:08

Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to

0:10

the Body Left Sets podcast. My guest

0:13

today view James mcmurtane, who

0:15

has a fantastic new album, The

0:17

Courses in the Hut. James, good

0:19

to have you on the podcast. I'm good to be here,

0:22

Bob. Okay, you're

0:24

on the road touring now right, Um,

0:27

yes, I'm currently in Albuquerque. So

0:29

what's it like being on the road during this

0:32

Delta era. That's

0:34

a little different. I mean, this is a solo acoustic

0:36

tour, but rather than staying in hotels

0:39

like we used to, or staying in airbnbs,

0:42

so we don't have to be in elevators and hotel

0:44

lobbies. And basically, you

0:46

know, we find a central location and just

0:49

base out of there for a few days. So

0:51

you know, right now, we played Albuquerque

0:53

last night, be going up to Santa Fe

0:55

today and coming

0:58

back after show,

1:00

and then tomorrow go up to Taois and play a show

1:02

up there. And what kind of venues

1:05

the two show is, the Big Barn Dance

1:08

and the kick Carson Park. All all

1:10

of these shows on this run

1:12

have been outdoors except for Phoenix,

1:15

and Phoenix was was a little strange to start

1:17

because I had I

1:20

thought I had required, uh, mask

1:22

and facts only and

1:25

they were checking backs cards. But you know, we looked

1:27

out there right before the show and nobody's got a mask

1:29

on. So I talked to the management

1:31

and they said, well, we can hand out masks, and said, well please,

1:35

and so they did, and all but two people

1:38

masked up. And how

1:40

do you know the two people weren't you just saw him in the audience.

1:43

They the management told me

1:45

about them. There was anything they could do at that point.

1:47

It's Arizona. I

1:49

don't really understand. Also, yeah, they

1:52

weren't told when they got there that they had to have mass

1:54

on, so I can kind of see. But it's

1:57

very strange that, you know that artists

2:00

can't require safety

2:02

protocols. And we used to be able

2:04

to require non smoking shows back

2:06

before smoking bands went into effect, and

2:10

a lot of promoters didn't like that because they wouldn't

2:12

draw as well, but eventually that

2:14

became the norm. You know, you

2:16

don't see smoking shows much anymore, except

2:19

in tobacco growing states. So

2:23

how hesitant, if at all, were you to

2:25

go on the road? Quiet

2:27

hesitant? And then I canceled everything

2:30

beyond Hoos. I was supposed to fly from

2:32

Albuquerque to Atlanta in

2:34

a couple of days and getting the rent car and

2:36

go driving around the southeast and up

2:39

as far as actually up as far as Detroit and

2:41

back around. But I

2:43

couldn't get any of the venues to honor my safety

2:45

protocol, so we just dropped it. And

2:48

your safety protocol was vaccination

2:50

and mask. Yes for indoor

2:53

shows. I want to see you. I want I want to vaccinate,

2:55

vax cards and masks, you

2:58

know, as much as you can. I mean, I so you gotta take them

3:00

off to drink. But you know, I

3:03

want everybody working against

3:05

the virus. I don't want to feel

3:07

like I'm out there working for the virus, drawing

3:09

people together where they're going to get infected. And

3:12

you know it. Austin

3:14

opened back up a few months ago, and

3:18

immediately we started getting breakthrough cases

3:20

among musicians, mostly because

3:22

they'd be inside in these little clubs and you

3:25

know, a crowd of people, some of them vaccinated, some of

3:27

them not. And if

3:29

you're a singer or a drummer or

3:33

in some bands, anybody, any musician, you're

3:35

breathing down to your toes. If there's

3:37

any you know, a viral load out there, you're

3:39

gonna catch quite a bit of it. And you

3:41

know the vaccines, don't you know, they're

3:44

not a hundred percent protection against contracting

3:46

the virus. They tend to keep you out

3:48

of the hospital, you know all that. Most

3:51

of the musicians I know that that contracted

3:54

COVID. You know, they had

3:57

mild cases, uh meaning

4:00

weren't hospitalized. But

4:02

the problem is, you know, the crowd

4:04

spreads it amongst themselves, and maybe they're vaccinated

4:07

and they get my old cases, but they take it home

4:09

to their kids who can't get vaccinated.

4:12

And now you know, we're seeing kids in I

4:14

see you, especially in Texas where they don't allow

4:16

mask mandates. You know, Houston

4:19

has something like fifty kids. And I see you, and

4:21

the whole state's running out. I see you, Beds

4:24

Now. You live in the Austin area, right, I

4:26

live in Lockhart, third, thirty miles

4:28

due south of the Austin Airport. I

4:32

haven't been there. What's Lockhart like? Well?

4:34

And this pretty cool little town. I mean ten

4:36

years ago it was a kind of a dried up

4:38

farming town, you

4:41

know, boarded up storefronts on the square

4:43

and you know, mostly

4:45

agricultural base. And that

4:48

they got a new guy on the Chamber of Commerce,

4:50

and they wanted to revitalize the

4:52

town and he told them, well, first thing you need

4:54

to do is start issuing liquor licenses. You

4:57

can't be a dry county anymore. And expected

5:00

right, and so they did. So, you

5:02

know, a lot of young people started moving down from Austin

5:04

because they couldn't afford it anymore. And

5:06

they're starting businesses. There's you know, cafes

5:09

and bars with sidewalk service,

5:11

that sort of thing, and it's kind of it's

5:13

starting to thrive. It's and it's interesting

5:16

how you know, the locals

5:18

that have been there a long time, they they

5:21

kind of accepted us because you

5:23

know, they have an economy now. And

5:26

how long have you lived there? I

5:28

moved there in twenty nineteen, February

5:32

of twenty nineteen. So you moved

5:34

as part of this arts exodus? Shall we say?

5:36

Well? Yeah, my my landlords passed

5:39

away a while back and their

5:42

errors finally got the place out of probate

5:44

and they offered it to me. I was runing. I was actually

5:46

running both sides of a duplex because

5:49

I figured out I could write off one side for rehearsal

5:51

and storage, and it

5:55

worked pretty well, but you know, there

5:57

was no way I could buy it. You know, the ground

5:59

under it was worth three fifty grand and

6:02

the building itself was a tear down. So how am gonna

6:04

get financing for that? You need

6:06

a developer with a pile of cash

6:08

if you're going to sell something like that. But

6:11

they were nice, they didn't They didn't run me out. They

6:13

gave me time to get my act together

6:15

and find a place I could buy. So

6:18

you own in Lockhart? I own in Lockhart?

6:20

Yeah, what kind of place you go? That's

6:22

just a little house in a little subdivision

6:24

that sticks down between a grain field or

6:27

maze field rather and a couple of pastures.

6:30

And uh, it's actually across the pasture

6:32

from the Lockhart Airport where

6:35

they do flight training, and there's

6:37

a Cessna plane that circles around all day.

6:39

We call it the Incessant Cessna. It

6:42

took a little while to get used to, but it's

6:45

just part of life now. So how big a house?

6:47

How much property? Oh?

6:51

Virtually no property? I think you know, quarter

6:53

acre, lot um square

6:56

feet something like that. Well, you know, I always

6:59

wonder I'm a lead night person and wherever

7:01

whenever I live close to people. I

7:03

always upset them. I'm up too late, the

7:06

music is too loud. Have you encountered

7:08

any of those issues? No, Um,

7:11

we're pretty quiet. I don't. I don't, you

7:13

know, I don't. I don't crank up an app at home

7:15

very much. I do that in rehearsal spaces. So

7:18

so far, I haven't. They only I did to annoy

7:20

him. My neighbors, because when I first moved down, there had

7:22

five cats and they're

7:24

all outdoor casts. We had to cage them up for

7:27

a while, and they had been

7:29

feral cats, but they sort of moved in and we got

7:31

them fixed and all we're

7:33

down to three. I'm not sure what predators.

7:36

And I think an awl got the last one because

7:38

I found al feathers across the street, and I

7:41

don't know what got that other one. The coyotes

7:43

don't come into into the neighborhood

7:45

like they will in an urban area because you know, rural

7:49

coyotes get shot at. They like to stay

7:51

away from dogs and people. When

7:53

you say we who's living in the house with my

7:55

girlfriend Kelly? And

7:58

I know you've been married this

8:01

lady. How long have you been involved with her? Twenty

8:03

one years? Twenty years. Yeah,

8:06

twenty years. You lie. Now, I've been involved

8:08

with my girlfriend for

8:11

sixteen years and I'm not married.

8:13

Why are you not married? Huh?

8:17

Didn't we just I

8:19

don't know that's that important to us, and it

8:21

would mess with her Obamacare. Okay,

8:26

you talked about living in Lockhart.

8:28

You say you don't rehearse there. Where

8:30

do you rehearse San Marcus? As

8:33

I say, I'm Texas ignorant, we're San Sant

8:36

Marcus is about eighteen miles east of Lockhart,

8:38

and there's a good rehearsal facility for good

8:40

rate. And my band is scattered

8:43

around in several different directions, and San

8:45

Marcus is fairly essential to all of us.

8:47

So that's where we go. And just

8:49

plotting in my mind where San Marcos

8:51

relative to Austin due south,

8:54

well, a little bit south and a little

8:56

bit west. Keep forgetting I thirty five

8:58

kind of runs at an angle through there. But okay,

9:02

now you say you're doing this acoustic

9:04

tour, can you talk about your band? How many you

9:06

are on the road right now? That's

9:08

just me and a tour manager right now, right

9:11

So when you're on the road alone, you're

9:14

being members. They're only

9:16

getting paid when they're on the road with you. Well,

9:19

yeah, they all they're they're pretty good carpenters.

9:22

Okay, have you ever had to have a second

9:24

gig since you've had your first record deal? So

9:28

it has worked out for you. So,

9:31

you know, Texas is in the news like crazy,

9:33

and I realized Austin is like the hippest part

9:35

of Texas. What's it like living in Texas? Now?

9:39

Texas is pretty crazy. You see a lot of Trump signs,

9:42

a lot of don't tread on me signs, and they're

9:44

always on the the richest looking ranches

9:46

I ever see. They've got these big ornate

9:49

you know, sheet iron gates

9:51

with with always have the word ranching,

9:54

and then they usually have figurines

9:56

of cowboys open to something and

9:59

and the cattle look like four

10:01

h calves, you know, they look like they've been manicured.

10:04

And then you'll have this don't tread on

10:06

me sign and you want to go, you know that yellow

10:09

flag with a put the rattlesnake

10:11

on it, and you just you want to go knock on the door and say,

10:13

who's treading on you? Like you're

10:15

doing just fine? And those are all over the

10:17

countryside out there, and you

10:19

know, we keep hearing that Texas

10:22

could go blue. I have a

10:24

friend to listen for worth it says that's never

10:26

gonna happen. From your viewpoint, what's

10:28

going on? It should numeric

10:30

numerically. But the thing is the Republicans have jerrymandered

10:33

those districts for so long. And when

10:35

I lived when I last lived in Austin, I

10:38

lived in what was called the the Fajita

10:40

District because it snaked its way

10:42

from South Austin down through

10:45

Beville and Kennedy all the

10:47

way to the Rio Grand Valley, snaking us way through

10:49

Republican strongholds, and Austin

10:52

was cut up into a kaleidoscope like that just

10:54

to keep us old hippies from having any cloud

10:57

electorally. So, you

10:59

know, we read about Abbott, we read about

11:02

the abortion law, we read about the voting laws.

11:04

Is it just going to continue to go in that direction

11:07

or is something going to change? Well, I can't

11:09

predict the future. Um

11:11

they're gonna try to keep it going in that direction.

11:15

They're trying to turn the clock back to their version

11:17

of the fifties, which which means uh,

11:19

segregation and women have no

11:22

rights. The part of the fifties that they don't want

11:24

is the sevent tax bracket. So

11:29

if you're in Austin, is it like a bubble

11:31

even though the state government is there where?

11:34

Does this affect all walks of life

11:36

and everybody's life in Texas?

11:38

It's kind of a bubble. But I don't really I don't

11:41

go into Austin much anymore because Austin it's

11:44

turned into some version of California. I

11:47

think we got all this high rise, multi use

11:50

UH structure is going in

11:52

and valet parking everywhere,

11:55

and I don't recognize it even from two

11:57

years ago. But Austin

11:59

is known is a legendary nightlife

12:01

music town. Is that an accurate description?

12:04

It was accurate until about maybe five

12:06

years ago. Now it's Disneyland basically. Can

12:10

you amplify that a little bit? Well,

12:12

I mean it used to be you playing

12:14

clubs and you get music aficionados

12:16

coming in to see you. Now you get

12:19

tourists coming in, sometimes on buses.

12:21

They'll get off the bus and have a

12:23

bunch of drinks and stand in front of the stage taking

12:26

selfies and then get back

12:28

on the bus. It's not about being there and

12:30

experiencing anything. It's about saying you've

12:32

been there. So if you're starting out

12:34

musician's lost in a good place to be. It's

12:37

a little expensive for a starting out musician

12:39

now. I think the way

12:41

the reason it became a kind of a music

12:44

mecca is because the cost of living

12:46

was so low for so long. But

12:48

it's not that way anymore. One

12:51

might ask the question, why

12:53

live in Texas? What's the appeal? Well,

12:55

I still live there because my band lives there

12:58

and my girlfriend works there, and that's

13:00

just just where I live. I don't know that

13:02

I would move here now, and

13:04

I moved to Texas right now. What does

13:06

your girlfriend do for living? She tends bar

13:09

And you have a son. Where

13:11

is your son presently living? He

13:13

lives in uh Oak Hill

13:15

over on the west side of Austin, Okay.

13:19

So you have a new album,

13:22

you're not on a rigid schedule. Why a

13:24

new album now? That's

13:27

just when it happened to finally come out. We

13:30

made this record and we tracked it in June

13:33

of twenty nineteen with

13:35

Ross Hogarth producing, and

13:39

and he's pretty busy, and that was pretty busy

13:41

touring then, and so we after

13:43

the tracking, we had to juggle our schedules to

13:45

try to get the overdubs done. That

13:48

took about the rest of the year. We

13:50

were just about to finish up keyboards

13:53

when California shut

13:55

down and then the rest of the country

13:57

shut down, and so we had to do keyboard

13:59

over to his kind of piecemeal, with

14:02

various different musicians and different

14:04

locations. I did a couple of sessions with

14:06

Buck Allen in Texas, and

14:08

Ross had some guys that were emailing tracks

14:11

in and so he finally got it all assembled

14:13

and mixed this past year. And

14:19

I don't remember what one the

14:21

August release date came about, but

14:23

that's just that's what the label decided

14:26

on and and now it's out. Okay,

14:30

did you make the album already have a having

14:32

a record deal in place? Whould

14:34

you cut first and then shop for a deal? Oh?

14:37

No, I had a deal with New West Records.

14:40

Um Logan Rogers,

14:43

he owns a label called Lightning

14:45

Rod. He did a couple of my records, and

14:48

before that he was with Compoti

14:50

Records and they did a couple of records. So

14:52

I knew Logan. He's now

14:54

a VP at New West, so he

14:56

was kind of the key man on the contract.

15:00

So you have a deal with them, they pay for the

15:02

record. In today's marketplace, which is so

15:04

different from when you started out, What

15:07

is your label doing to get the word out?

15:10

Well, I assume they're doing plenty of ads

15:12

and they got al Moss working at the radio,

15:14

so they seem

15:16

to be doing a good job. Where I think we're number

15:18

three Americana this week. So

15:22

you know, you started out on a major label. As

15:25

they say, the landscape change irrelevant

15:27

of your career. You put out a record today, an

15:29

album today. What are your personal expectations?

15:32

What do you want? Well,

15:34

what I want is to

15:36

to get people in the clubs. And

15:38

then when we when I started

15:40

out making records on a major label,

15:42

the business model was you put the

15:45

record out and you tour to support record

15:47

sales, and the hopes that you would

15:49

sell enough records to recoup your cost

15:52

and are enough royalties that

15:54

you can make a living off the record. Well, you know, and

15:56

that didn't work for me. I didn't sell near enough records.

15:59

But I did get a foot hold in the touring business

16:02

and learned how to tour pretty cheap, so I can

16:04

actually profit on the road. Well.

16:06

As the business evolved or devolved,

16:09

however you want to look at it. You know, Napster

16:11

and Spotify came along. Suddenly nobody's

16:14

making any artists royalties off records.

16:17

Everybody's having to scramble down the road.

16:20

So at that point, everybody else was doing what we've

16:22

already been doing. Um so

16:25

we look at, you know, as

16:28

at a record. A record is is a piece of

16:30

art, but it's also a piece of advertising. We

16:33

put a record out, I get to talk to you, I

16:35

get to talk to all kinds of journalists.

16:37

I get local press. When I'm coming to a town

16:39

to play a gig, and people will know I'm coming

16:41

and they might buy a ticket. That's

16:44

what I'm looking for in a record. Okay,

16:47

before COVID, and it's insanity, how

16:49

many dates a year were you doing. I

16:52

was out about half the year, and when

16:55

we were home, we had a weekend gigs and regular

16:57

gig at the Continental Club on Wednesdays.

17:00

I also had a regular solo thing,

17:02

so we're pretty busy.

17:05

Well the same since then. I had to learn to stream,

17:08

so now I do a couple of live streams a week,

17:10

and and it

17:12

was it was pretty good

17:14

money at first, and then everybody's unemployment

17:16

ran out and they don't tip quite so high, but

17:19

but they're still pretty generous and loyal.

17:22

So I've been very lucky with the people

17:24

out there. So how frequently were

17:26

you doing the live streams twice

17:29

a week, once on Wednesdays and once on Sundays

17:31

And what platform were you using? I

17:34

use Facebook and YouTube and

17:36

Twitch. For a while, I was just

17:38

using Facebook. I usually

17:40

have like two fifty a

17:43

week or to fifty

17:45

per show. At first it was

17:47

somewhat more than that, and then I guess everybody got bored

17:49

with my mercury. I don't know, but it's

17:51

boiled down to, you know, two

17:53

fifty loyal fans and from

17:56

different places. You know, Wednesday night I

17:59

do at at pm Central

18:02

and then Sundays I do it one pm Central

18:04

because that way I still get I get

18:06

the Europeans that are still awake, and I get the

18:09

Californias they're just getting up. So

18:11

you have to thank globally on the

18:13

net. And do

18:16

you think it's the same Twitter and fifty people

18:18

every gig where there's a certain number

18:20

of die hards, a

18:22

bunch of them, because well

18:25

yeah, because you see their handles on Facebook scroll

18:29

I use I use re stream, which goes

18:32

multi format, so it goes out to UH,

18:34

Facebook, YouTube, and Twitch. Twitch

18:37

has the best technical

18:40

aspects, best audio, best video, and about

18:42

two listeners. We're getting another we're

18:44

getting more unstable internet. UM

18:48

YouTube has pretty good video, pretty

18:51

good audio. But Facebook remains the

18:53

most popular. I think it's because

18:55

the interactive nature of it. People like to get

18:57

together and shot amongst themselves. So

19:00

if you're doing two shows a week on

19:03

a presentation level, how

19:05

do you decide what material to play?

19:10

I try not to repeat UH

19:13

songs more than you know every third or fourth

19:15

show. So

19:17

I just asked kind of rotate through my material,

19:20

and I generally do one cover song

19:23

per show, usually one

19:25

that I've never played before. I just started surfing

19:27

the internet and trying

19:29

to jog my memory. So

19:32

what are some of the cover songs you've played? I

19:36

did Garden Party one time. That

19:40

was interesting. I

19:42

wasn't and I was like that. Sometimes I'll pull

19:44

up hits that I remember when I was, you know, fourteen

19:47

or fifteen, UM,

19:49

please come to Boston. I really like doing that. You've

19:53

done so many of these, You've learned what works

19:55

most when you play the

19:58

well known songs or when you tell stories.

20:01

Yeah, what works for your audience. Well,

20:04

depending on a live show, I don't talk so

20:07

much. But on the Internet you have to. You

20:09

have to sort of be kind of twisted, Mr Rogers,

20:12

because you gotta tune these guitars, and everybody's

20:15

right up in your face. They can they can see

20:17

you, they can see your thoughts. So

20:19

you gotta keep something going, some kind of pattern.

20:22

But there's

20:25

just some of the old songs that they really like. They always

20:27

like Choctaw Bingo level Land, Painting

20:30

by Numbers, that kind of thing. So

20:39

do you personally know a lot of these hardcore

20:41

fans or do you keep him at arms length? Uh?

20:45

No, I don't know very many fans in

20:47

general, and I

20:49

don't do like I don't interact on

20:51

Facebook. I don't do Facebook unless I'm streaming.

20:54

Um. There was a little while where I kind

20:56

of got drawn into the culture, and I

20:59

just don't like that. I don't like to worry about

21:01

it. I'll put my show out

21:03

there and every now and then

21:06

I'll post something just to see

21:08

if I can get a feeding frenzy going, because

21:10

for a while there, you you know, you get all kinds

21:12

of trolls. That was

21:15

fun. To watch. But if

21:17

I'm mad enough, I'll post something.

21:19

But I don't ever look at the comments anymore. I

21:21

just, you know, I don't

21:24

worry about what they think that much. But

21:26

you're a guy who was not speaking

21:28

in bland statements,

21:31

and there's a lot of personal stuff and

21:33

therefore bonds fans to you.

21:36

And I'm wondering if one of the reasons

21:38

you might keep fans in arms lengthens, you might have

21:40

had some bad experiences. By the

21:42

flip side, there's a lot of acts that

21:45

depend on their fans to get the word

21:47

out. They literally stay at their houses.

21:50

Where are you in that game? Well,

21:54

I don't. I don't stay at private

21:57

residences on the road. And

22:00

I'm just a little too old to be that accessible,

22:03

because, uh, you know, when I was

22:06

starting out and making records, we were still

22:08

in the business of selling exclusivity

22:11

and myth and it's more fun

22:13

to sell that than than than

22:17

accessibility. I don't you know, I've

22:19

gotten. I got

22:21

where I didn't want to go to the merch table anymore.

22:23

For for a while there, I had to because we had

22:25

to make little extra money and

22:27

and my drummers in the T shirt business.

22:30

I wanted him to make a little extra money, And so I'd go out

22:32

there and signed stuff I found

22:34

that. You know, after you drive

22:37

all day and then

22:39

you check in a hotel, you take an hour off,

22:41

you go load in, then you sound check, then

22:43

you do a show, then

22:46

you go out and try to talk to people,

22:48

and you just don't have anything left

22:50

but meanness, so quite

22:52

off, and I'd get in a practice with a fan, you

22:55

know, or you know,

22:57

or I just let him know what an asshole I was. You

23:00

don't want to let them know that. You want to keep them

23:02

in the dark on that. And so it was

23:05

better if I don't go near the merch table and

23:07

sign stuff because one thing, it just takes

23:09

so much energy, and you need that energy

23:11

for the next day's show. And

23:14

you know, there there are artists like Joe really who

23:16

could talk to people all night long and

23:19

get up and play a great show the next night. But

23:21

me, it would wear me down after a while.

23:24

And besides that, you know, everybody's got

23:26

a camera now, they all got a cell phone,

23:29

so they're gonna get a picture with you, And

23:32

it's just it takes a lot of energy to stand there and

23:34

do that and just to be nice for that long

23:37

when you're already that tired. You know, the

23:40

freeway can make you grumpy. How

23:43

big your business is? Your merch Um,

23:47

you'd have to ask my manager a

23:50

merchburg. I don't really keep tabs

23:52

on that. Um. I don't

23:54

like merch personally, but it's

23:57

just necessary, okay.

23:59

And you'd don't like merch because instance,

24:03

because you got to carry it around and

24:05

then somebody's got to account for it, and

24:09

it doesn't it's not my craft

24:11

really. Well,

24:13

I guess the question I'm asking is if you

24:15

don't sign and you don't sit there

24:17

and talk to Fance, does that drive the numbers

24:19

down? Definitely? But

24:24

it's worth it to me to have more energy the next

24:26

night to do a better show. Just the show

24:28

is the product I'm trying to sell. And

24:31

I feel better if I do a better job, and

24:33

I do a better job if I don't bother with the merch table.

24:36

Okay. You know your agent is Frank Riley

24:38

at high Road Touring, good friend of mine, great

24:40

guy, really dedicated. So

24:43

how do you plan out your tours

24:45

and going on the road. You call him

24:47

and say this, how much I want to work and how much is involved

24:50

in terms of the conversation. Well,

24:53

um, actually, as Dave Rohan does

24:55

most of the hands on work with my tours,

24:58

Frank does sums that you know, he gets

25:01

some good stuff coming to him. But basically,

25:03

you arrange a tour, you get some good offers, you

25:05

get some good money offers, and

25:07

the trick at that point is to get to that money

25:09

and get home with most of it. So

25:12

you'll have your anchor dates that are high dollar

25:14

and then you just take regular club dates

25:16

for whatever the market will bear to

25:19

get you there, so you can put gas in your van,

25:21

you know, pay for the lodging, and pay for the

25:24

payroll um per

25:26

d MS, food, that kind

25:28

of stuff. You're out now

25:30

with just a tour manager. How

25:33

do you decide when you go acoustic and when

25:35

you go with the band? It

25:37

depends on the offer. Some clubs will

25:39

prefer acoustics, so they'll offer an acoustic

25:41

show, and you

25:44

know, so we'll do an acoustic run, which

25:46

it's more lucrative. They'll you're getting the same

25:48

money up front, but the overhead is a lot lower.

25:51

Um that I wouldn't want to do nothing but

25:53

acoustic because it wears you out. You

25:56

don't get as much back from an audience and

25:59

you don't have the and energy. It's

26:01

like a band show that the energy is sort

26:03

of circular. You're passing it

26:06

between you and the band and the audience it comes

26:08

back around, whereas with a

26:10

solo show it's just you and the audience. It's linear.

26:13

It's like a tennis game, straight back and forth.

26:15

Um, it's great in some

26:18

ways. You can you can really get your songs across.

26:22

But you know, you do a month

26:24

of those days. It's just where you're flat out. So

26:27

when you do go on the road, how

26:29

many dates a week do you tend

26:32

to work? We try to work six

26:34

days a week. We take Monday

26:36

off for a travel day, um,

26:39

because it's um, nobody goes out on

26:41

Monday nights anyway, and

26:44

you always travel in a van with

26:47

a band. Yeah, if it's just a solo

26:50

thing, then it's just right. Now. We're

26:52

in my dad's old hun day As

26:54

it's the best running car we got and

26:59

you you go out. So how much equipment

27:01

do you take? I'd

27:04

take just to take a twelve string guitar,

27:06

six string guitar, a

27:08

couple of tuners, a couple of pedals. That's

27:12

about it. Are

27:15

you in equipment geek or you

27:17

know he was. There are people who have a hundred guitars, whe other

27:19

people really only have one. Where are

27:21

you in that landscape? I have quite a quite

27:23

a few guitars. I couldn't count them. I don't

27:25

think um. Then, when I tear with a

27:27

band, I usually have five guitars on stage.

27:31

I thought about bringing a third guitar on his solo

27:33

thing, because I gotta I gotta eight string baritone

27:35

I've been messing with, but I didn't

27:38

have a hard shell case for it, and I didn't want

27:40

to bring it out because you know, stuff happens. And

27:43

when you bring the five guitars for a band

27:45

gig, what are those guitars? Main?

27:49

Main guitars? A Parl Reid Smith, swamp

27:52

ash special as I bolt you know it's got

27:54

a bolt on neck and

27:56

and uh, you know, I've got a Jerry Jones baritone.

27:59

Uh got a National Res electric

28:03

and sometimes

28:05

I bring Strat for a Sparry guitar. Sometimes

28:07

I've got an old guild S sixty. You

28:09

know, we're a weird looking things. Single pick up it

28:12

sounds pretty good. I'll bring

28:14

that sometimes. And

28:17

I've got a Guild acoustic with a sunrise

28:19

in the hole. You

28:21

go on the road and

28:23

you know, you say, it's kind of overbearing.

28:26

Ever been in a car accident as a result

28:28

of all this traveling? No,

28:32

that only uh,

28:35

only real automotive mishap. I

28:38

remember it was on my first tour, or

28:42

I guess maybe technically second. We

28:44

and we put waste Land out and we've gone

28:46

out and you know, toured as a band, opening

28:49

up for the Bodines and then Nancy Griffith

28:51

and then the delf Wages, and we're

28:53

out for about three months and then it's

28:55

about to go home and suddenly the

28:57

Indigo Girls. I wanted an

28:59

know winner, so I took my

29:02

bass player at the time, Randy Garyvy,

29:05

and he also played guitar, So the two of

29:07

us went out as a duo and opened up for

29:09

the Indigo Girls. And again

29:11

we were jokingly termed ourselves the out

29:13

you go guys. But

29:17

we got down to San Francisco and

29:20

the original road manager on that I

29:23

managed to get deported. Actually I

29:26

had a hand in that. I was rather stupid tipped

29:30

off the border patrol by

29:32

going back looking for my road manager who

29:35

had crossed in a separate car. And as

29:38

it wound up sending him back to Canada. It's

29:41

from New Zealand originally, but

29:44

but he had rented a Ford

29:46

Taurus station wagon. And

29:50

so we picked

29:52

up another tour manager in Portland

29:55

because I didn't know how to settle a show or anything. And

29:58

he rode with us all the way down down

30:00

the coast, and we got to Eugene, and

30:04

I was supposed to fly ahead, and I was supposed to fly

30:06

down to San Francisco and sit in a hotel all day

30:08

talking to press while the tour manager

30:10

and the bass player drove that tore

30:13

us down past Mount Shasta in that

30:15

way, and

30:17

and they got there and

30:19

the phone rang and and it

30:22

was Dana, the tour enter. He said that we got

30:24

a problem. This is well, what's the problem? He

30:26

said, Well, the street car

30:28

just rip ripped the driver's door

30:30

half off the rent car, And so, well, are

30:32

you hurt? He says, no, you're

30:35

not bleeding or anything. He said no. So well,

30:37

what's the problem, he says, Well, what do you want

30:39

me to do? So, well,

30:41

you're in San Francisco. So what you do is

30:43

you empty everything and out of that car and

30:46

you take it over to North beach and leave it on

30:48

the street. That's gonna get swept in the morning, Carl

30:50

will disappear, which

30:53

you did. And then somebody got ahold of Max, the

30:55

original tour manager. It was back

30:58

in New Zealand at the time, and

31:00

and he had been planning to ditch the car anyway.

31:03

He wasn't going to play a budget

31:05

a drop fee on a car that he picked

31:07

up in Seattle to drop in San Diego.

31:11

So he just called in it, you know, to

31:13

the rent car company and say, yeah, I told

31:16

you it's in Space sixteen in front of the

31:18

Edgewater Hotel in Seattle. What

31:20

do you mean it's not there, you know? So

31:23

he called it and stolen basically, and they charged

31:25

him seventy dollars on his visa card. But

31:29

nobody got hurt physically. And

31:32

when you're on the road, do you ever drive? I

31:34

do most of the driving bass

31:37

player and when I when I wear out, the bass player

31:39

drives. And then if we have a night

31:41

drive, the drummer drives. And

31:43

how do you decide that? How do you decide you drive?

31:47

Well, if it's if it's after show, the drummer

31:49

drives. I usually

31:51

I do the morning shift because that's when I'm best. And

31:53

then bass player wakes up, you

31:56

know, somewhere between one and three in the afternoon,

31:58

and stopped for gas and

32:01

he takes the wheel. And

32:04

how many of these are long drafts? Well,

32:08

we try not to drive too long, um,

32:12

I mean eight hours in a show is

32:14

is max for us,

32:16

and it's usually between four and six in

32:19

the West and the east it'll be shorter.

32:21

It'll be you know, two to five hours

32:25

because the distances are shorter back there.

32:28

So you know, it sounds like a grind. And

32:31

I realized this is what you do and you have to earn

32:33

a living. Do you dig it? Do

32:36

you like going on the road and going through this? I

32:40

do once I'm out. I don't like leaving

32:43

that much as

32:45

it always have to work up to loading

32:47

that van and getting out the front door. You

32:49

know, the dogs look at you funny kind

32:52

of cock their heads. They get all silky, and you

32:55

know, if you get used to staying at home, it's

32:57

harder to go back out. And

32:59

it has in you know, since the lockdown.

33:03

I have a different view of it all, um.

33:06

And it didn't take long after I

33:08

canceled that first tour. I was

33:10

home for a couple of weeks and I realized

33:13

my joints and my bones didn't hurt. I

33:16

wasn't rattling down the road in that band. You

33:18

know, it's just something about

33:20

you. You hunch over that wheel, and it's that

33:23

last twenty miles into town and

33:25

you're trying to get in before rush hour locks

33:28

the whole thing down, and it just gets really frantic.

33:31

And that, you know, that talks

33:33

me out pretty good. I don't

33:36

miss that about the road. Now.

33:39

The road is rife with people's stories

33:43

of abusing drugs and alcohol

33:45

just to copy. And you come off stage, you're

33:48

all fired up. Takes

33:50

you a long time to come down. Maybe you're

33:52

traveling. How do you cope with that? Oh?

33:56

Well, I've done my share of the alcohol, and

34:01

and there's places I can't go back to you because

34:03

of that. Um, there's

34:05

a lot of things I'm not proud of. And

34:07

at this point in time, the

34:10

band members, how long did these particular members

34:12

been playing with you? Darren

34:14

and Tim have been with me twenty

34:17

four years, and

34:20

corn Bread, the bass player, he's been in about

34:23

twelve years. I think, Wow, Okay,

34:25

let's talk about the new album. So how did the songs

34:28

come together. Was it like, oh

34:30

I have an album, I got a right material,

34:33

or is the collection what you've done for the previous

34:35

five years. Well,

34:38

I worked from a scrapile, scrap pile

34:41

that I've worked on for the previous you

34:43

know, thirty years, And

34:49

basically what happened this time as Ross

34:51

Hogarth called up after

34:54

having waited a few months while I was messing around

34:57

trying to finish these songs, and he said, look, we

34:59

can get the Groove Masters in

35:02

June. So I'm going to book the time and you're gonna

35:04

finish the songs. So

35:06

I said, okay, did

35:08

that work for you? Yeah?

35:11

I got the songs done. Okay.

35:14

So it's been you know a number of years since

35:16

your last album. Were you're writing songs? Some people

35:18

are would shipping all the time. They have extra

35:20

stuff, they have throw aways. Other people they only have what

35:22

they come into the studio with. What's

35:25

your situation? I had less than when

35:27

I came in the studio with. Actually I finished a

35:29

couple of those songs, uh in the roadway

35:31

in and Culver City, um,

35:36

just because actually yeah,

35:38

I was Darren the drummer and

35:40

he told me said, yeah, I want that song about glasses.

35:43

You know they did that once that at

35:46

sound check and it wasn't finished. But I just pulled

35:48

it out and tried it. And he remembered

35:50

that they get that song back out and finish it. Let's

35:52

cut that. So

35:54

so I sat down and finished it. Okay

35:57

do you Some people, you know, they work

36:00

got word by word. Other people wait for

36:02

inspiration. How do

36:04

you do it? I

36:08

get a couple of lines and a melody, and

36:10

I just keep picking at it. Mm hmm.

36:13

Over time. If I think

36:15

about the lines, I think, okay, who said

36:17

that? Um?

36:20

So, I can envision a character, and

36:25

and if I if I can get the character, I might get a story

36:27

and I can put it into a verse chorus structure.

36:31

And that's how I get a song. I

36:35

have to be careful sometimes those characters don't

36:37

agree with me. And

36:40

the trick there is to stay in character.

36:44

If you you start a song and character and

36:46

then you start pushing your own opinion, you're gonna break

36:48

character and you'll have a sermon instead of a song.

36:52

Okay. The opening

36:55

track talks about a thirty year crush.

36:59

Where did that come from?

37:01

I just heard it in my head. You

37:05

weren't thinking about somebody you knew

37:07

thirty years ago. No,

37:10

I'm a fiction writer. Okay,

37:14

but in a world music

37:16

where it's mostly auto biographical. Two

37:19

people still think that this is

37:21

your story. Of course.

37:24

Uh, you know, people think that Raciel's

37:26

song is my story. You

37:29

know, it's Raciel's song. It's not song

37:31

for Rachel. Raciel is the narrator.

37:34

But it signed my voice. That's the thing about

37:37

being a singer songwriter. You

37:40

know, Tom T. Hall wrote Harper

37:43

Valley Pta, but I don't

37:46

think he's sang it, so he didn't have

37:48

that problem. He pitched it to

37:50

a female artist. Okay.

37:52

Another song is Operation never

37:54

Mind, which I'll just say is a political

37:57

song. What's the backstory there?

38:00

Uh, there is a little backstory there. I didn't

38:02

have. A friend of mine was in the Army

38:05

for a long time. He really

38:07

liked it until until

38:10

he got to Bagdad and got cross was with

38:12

some contractors and the

38:15

army brass backed the contractors over

38:17

him, basically, and

38:20

that's where I got. I got some of that story out of that. But

38:24

my you know, my problem with a

38:26

lot of our military operations sense

38:30

Vietnam is that that we don't know what's

38:32

going on because we don't allow actual

38:36

coverage. We don't allow

38:38

journalists. And the last time I saw

38:40

a real freelance,

38:43

you know, television

38:46

journalism at a military operation

38:49

wasn't was when Reagan

38:51

sent the Marines into beyrout to

38:54

guard the airfield as a

38:56

symbolic presence, he thought, And he didn't

38:58

think anybody would shoot at a marine, I guess. And

39:01

these guys were, you know, they'd suffered

39:03

some casualties early on from snipers,

39:06

and at that time, YAM

39:11

cameraman and reporters were just walking

39:13

up to random Marines and asking them questions,

39:15

and the Marines were allowed to answer, and

39:18

they looked right in the camera and they said, why did you send

39:20

us? This isn't our mission. We're

39:22

an offensively trained unit. You know, you're

39:24

having us guard something on low grounds

39:26

surrounded by hustles on a high ground, and we

39:28

don't get to go out and take the high ground. Why

39:32

us? Then you

39:34

know, the

39:37

barracks blew up that somebody drove a truck

39:39

bomb into a barracks and killed a whole

39:41

bunch of guys. And

39:46

you know, I'm sure wine

39:48

Burger and Reagan didn't

39:50

look good. And pretty

39:52

soon suddenly we're in Grenada, and

39:55

nobody can really figure out why we're in Grenada.

39:59

And the journalists that came ashore

40:02

with US forces were

40:04

detained aboard a US aircraft carrier

40:06

for the duration of the action. Uh,

40:11

I wasn't. I was talking telling that story

40:13

to Scott Simon from NPR

40:15

the other day and he said, well, you know, I've covered that war,

40:19

but he didn't go in with US forces. He

40:21

went in through Barbados with Grenadian citizens

40:23

and just kind of snuck onto the island. So

40:27

he knows a lot more about that action. But you

40:29

know, but ever since then, you

40:31

know, we we haven't had just you

40:33

know, freelance journalism going on with

40:37

and I guess the next major action. You

40:39

know, in Desert Storm, we had Swarts cough Spoon

40:41

feeding us the war to a press pool

40:44

and a tent watching the video equips that he wanted

40:46

them to see. And then now we do

40:48

have in beds here that there's you know,

40:50

out there with the troops and doing good

40:53

journalism, but it's

40:55

hard to get to there's so many sources.

40:57

Now, during Vietnam we

41:00

add Walter Cronkite and

41:02

some other guys, and

41:04

everybody listened to them, we had a

41:06

center because we only had a few channels

41:09

to listen to, and everybody listened

41:11

to Walter Cronkite, and that war ended when Cronkite

41:13

got enough of it. But

41:16

you know, now we we don't have we

41:19

we don't know what's going on, and so we

41:21

can't make decisions as citizens. You

41:24

know, Tennyson said from the you know, the

41:26

in the Light Brigade, from

41:29

the point of view of a soldier, he said, our ours is

41:31

not to question why, ours is but to do

41:33

or die. But as a

41:35

allegedly free citizen in a free

41:37

society, ours is to question

41:39

why. And we're not doing

41:41

that actively. We've kind of trained ourselves not

41:44

to. But the flip side is we

41:47

we don't know what to question because we don't have information.

41:50

So that's that's part of what that song is about. Okay,

41:58

So now it's certainly a different

42:00

era from the three network era. And

42:04

just to flip the script, one

42:07

might say that the right wing and the

42:09

Republicans, they

42:11

are saying they are personally

42:14

analyzing the information. Therefore

42:16

they're not getting vaccines. Therefore

42:18

they have their take on all

42:20

these things. So you

42:23

know, we have the informs. It is in looking for

42:25

information. We have another segment believing they

42:27

found the information. Where does this leave us?

42:33

UM? I don't know. We're

42:35

in a nest because everybody has their own reality.

42:38

Now, you know, we've got so many

42:40

sources that you know you can you can

42:42

find the channel is going to give you

42:44

your own opinion back and reinforce your

42:46

opinion. And I guess

42:48

maybe that that sells more products

42:52

than actual information. And

42:56

if you could snap your fingers and change

42:58

America, how did you change? UM?

43:06

I would educate people. I

43:09

would fund the public school system as

43:11

much as possible. I

43:14

would try to teach um

43:20

critical thinking. I

43:24

still got an unstable internet. No, I mean

43:28

I remember being very frustrated as

43:31

as a college student, which I was not a

43:33

very good student, but I

43:37

took a philosophy class and

43:40

I would go in to these discussions

43:42

and all anybody wanted to know was what

43:45

was going to be on the quiz and

43:47

the answers to it. Nobody was discussing

43:49

philosophy. You

43:52

know, it's about ideas, but we're not

43:54

discussing ideas, and we're not we weren't trying to learn

43:56

concepts. Well, I realized now that all

43:58

that was an elective that fullfilled something,

44:00

and all these kids needed it to get to something

44:03

so they could be engineers

44:05

or whatever they were trying to be. You

44:08

know, they saw it as a process towards the Yeah,

44:13

economic security, financial

44:15

security. You know, I looked at it as school,

44:18

and I'm trying to learn something here. Um,

44:23

stilly me. Did

44:25

you finish college? No?

44:28

I think I became a sophomore. But

44:32

you know, we don't we we don't.

44:34

We don't want people to think. It's

44:37

much easier to govern people that don't

44:40

think. So

44:43

where did you get all this insight

44:46

and all this knowledge? Was it from

44:48

your parents? Your mother? Your father? Well,

44:53

my parents were both academics when I

44:55

was young. Um,

44:58

you know, Larry made his living teaching creative writing

45:01

up until the last Picture Show.

45:03

You know, he had some books out, but in

45:07

those days, you could keep putting

45:09

out books, whether they sold or not. That the polishers

45:11

would let you run five or six books

45:14

at least. Um,

45:17

But he wasn't selling enough books to make a living,

45:19

so he taught, and then finally he co

45:22

scripted Picture show and

45:24

got a foothold and screenwriting business. And that's

45:27

mostly how I made his living after that. Um.

45:31

But you know, he was an academic. My mother was

45:33

an academic. Most of the people we knew were academics,

45:36

and they got around they discussed

45:39

books, and they discussed the ideas. And I guess some

45:41

of it led off on me because

45:43

I didn't. I didn't like to read. I still don't. I'm

45:46

not a well read individual. And

45:52

did you grow up your parents whole?

45:54

Were you when your parents would up less

45:58

than a year? I think I

46:00

don't. I don't remember them being together, just

46:04

be Were you raised by both the primarily

46:07

your mother or your father and my father

46:10

your father? So you grew up with your father?

46:13

Yes? And was he the type of

46:15

person giving you lessons

46:17

or he was more hands off? No,

46:20

he didn't give me lessons, As I recall, he

46:25

was just there all the time. So

46:28

he wasn't giving you a father leaf philosophy.

46:33

Um, no of it. He taught

46:35

by example in a lot of ways. I

46:38

mean, it's

46:41

very strange, you know, to see these

46:43

politicians now just fighting so hard

46:45

for white power. I would have thought that

46:47

would have gone away. Um.

46:51

I remember, I

46:53

think it was about nineteen sixty eight in

46:56

Houston before

46:59

we left, before we moved to Virginia. Um,

47:03

and my dad was driving. We

47:05

were on Sunset in Houston. He was

47:08

driving along. He was looking at this house across the street

47:10

because I guess he he thought

47:12

maybe he could buy a house at that point, and he

47:14

was looking at his house for sale. And he

47:16

rolled into the back of a delivery truck at

47:19

five miles an hour, and I flew off

47:21

the back seat and hit the back of the front seat

47:23

because you know, we didn't have seat belts on in those

47:25

days. And well, he

47:28

didn't damage the truck in front of him, damaged

47:30

the car a little bit, and we all got out and

47:34

and the driver was black. And

47:37

that's the first time I really never saw fear

47:40

on the face of a grown man. And

47:43

the first policeman that came up, I'm pretty

47:45

sure it was a walking cop. They had those in

47:48

those days. And big fat Dude

47:51

and Larry spent twenty minutes trying

47:53

to keep the cop from giving the driver a ticket,

47:57

repeating over, nor, no, sir, it was my fault.

47:59

He was just off to the stoplight. You know.

48:02

That cop got so mad his

48:04

face disappeared. He

48:07

could not believe that the

48:09

white guy wouldn't let him end. Take it

48:11

on the black guy and

48:14

a couple of young cops showed up in a cruiser

48:16

and they kind of looked around a shrug and got back

48:18

in. But that big walking copies kept

48:21

at it relentless for a long time, and

48:24

I didn't really take all that in at the time.

48:27

It took a lot of years, but

48:29

to realize that that was a brave act

48:31

on where he's part and that time

48:33

and place. You

48:37

know, I recently watched the film Magic

48:39

Trip, and although you're very

48:42

young, two years old, Ken

48:44

KESI and his bus and Mary

48:46

Pranksters come and stop at

48:49

your father's house. I wouldn't

48:51

expect you to remember that scene.

48:53

But while you were growing up, did

48:56

your father interact with all those

48:58

people that he knew from Stanford,

49:00

etcetera. Well,

49:02

he certainly interacted with Ken. I don't

49:05

know if he interacted with Peter Beagle

49:07

or any of the other people in that Stigner class,

49:10

But I do remember the second time the bus

49:13

came to that house. I

49:15

was a little bit older. I was like six or seven then,

49:18

and I took

49:20

a liking to There was a prankister by the name

49:22

of Hermit that I idolized. Hermit

49:24

because he wore a big knife on his belt. And

49:29

one time we rode the bus over to the astrodome

49:32

and back and and the cops

49:34

took Hermit's knife away, and I thought that was some kind

49:36

of a tragedy. Even it didn't shake him up real

49:38

bad. And of course Hermit turned

49:41

out to be an FBI informant who eventually

49:43

got a lot of the thone in jail. So careful

49:46

how you take your heroes. You know. Wow,

49:51

And since your father interacted with keys,

49:53

he's a fascinating character, comes

49:55

out of the shoot with a lot of success, and then he

49:58

will literally say, well you can judge whether

50:00

he fried his brains with drugs. What

50:02

was your drugs? What was your perception of ken

50:06

Um? I was about half scared of him.

50:09

Yeah, very charismatic,

50:12

and I liked the whole court and kind

50:16

of control the conversation, and

50:18

as I wasn't used to that kind of manic

50:20

energy. Yeah, our house

50:23

was pretty calm for the most

50:25

part. Okay,

50:29

you wrote, certainly

50:31

in my eyes slung in the decade we can't

50:33

make it here. Is

50:36

there any power in political songs anymore?

50:38

Certainly in the sixties they were woven

50:41

into the culture anti Vietnam culture.

50:44

What do you think now? I

50:46

don't really know, and I

50:48

just I wrote that song. I

50:51

started it during the Clinton administration,

50:53

and I finished it during the Bush administration,

50:55

and I kept singing it on into Obama's

50:57

years a little bit, but I

51:01

don't I didn't expect it to have any kind of

51:03

power. I don't know that it did either.

51:08

But that was fun for a while.

51:12

Well, we we work in a business.

51:14

We've had success doing anything, especially

51:17

in today's world where it's hard to get noticed, most

51:19

people try to replicate it. After

51:21

you have that success with that song, did you

51:23

consciously not want to repeat it? Did people

51:25

ask you to do something similar? No?

51:30

I didn't set out to write a political song.

51:33

I just followed the words where

51:35

they led um

51:38

And then the next time. The

51:40

problem was I got pegged as a political songwriter

51:43

at that point, and so on the next record,

51:45

I had Cheney's Toy, which was political

51:48

for sure, but it was more McMurtry ranting.

51:50

It wasn't written from a character that everybody

51:53

could identify it with, so

51:56

it was fun, but it was largely misinterpreted,

51:58

and people thought I was saying that the soldier was

52:00

Cheney's toy, which I was really saying

52:02

Bush was Cheney's toy. I was. I was referred

52:05

to that era as the Cheney administration.

52:07

I felt like Cheney was the puppeteer and Bush

52:10

was the puppet. And you

52:12

know, I'd read in the New York Times that Cheney

52:14

would tell Bush you're the man every

52:17

you know, day to get him to pump his ego

52:19

up so he'd go out and sell his policies. And

52:21

as I thought for some reason people might

52:24

recognize that, Well, it turns out a lot of the country

52:26

doesn't read the New York Times. So

52:30

so I got a little bit of a bad rap for that. But

52:32

you know, I should have been more careful. You

52:35

do you read the New York Times, You keep up on the news

52:37

every day. I did for a while. Um,

52:40

I tend to read The Post now orson

52:42

post. Um,

52:45

the Time's got a little whimpy. In my opinion, the

52:48

Post has rebuilt itself into a

52:50

good paper once again. Can

52:53

you go a little deeper in the difference of the two. Well,

52:57

the Times seems to always have to, you

52:59

know, hedge its bets and

53:01

and try to look like they're being objective by

53:04

giving the right wing a little bit

53:06

of play, which the

53:08

Post doesn't bother with that so much. You

53:10

know, they own their

53:12

liberalism a little more fiercely.

53:15

So since you really

53:18

do, even though you claim not to, you really follow

53:20

this closely and have a lot of insight where's

53:23

it going in America? Like

53:27

I said, I can't I can't judge the future,

53:29

but it

53:32

doesn't surprise me so much. What

53:34

surprises me is that, you know, people

53:38

after Tim McVey blew the side off

53:40

that building, we

53:43

didn't do some kind of national psychological

53:46

triage because

53:48

anybody that's just driven around in the middle of

53:50

the country knows that that was not an

53:53

anomaly. You know, people

53:55

out here have been trained to

53:57

distrust the government and distrust elites

54:00

whatever they call them. You know that they'll

54:02

say they hate elite and then they'll vote, vote for

54:04

a bush, you know that

54:07

sort of thing. That this distrust

54:09

of liberalism and

54:12

government is deep seated and

54:14

along seated, and it's it's

54:16

bundled with the racism that's every

54:19

bit is deep seated out here. So

54:25

you know, right now, although there's

54:27

a democratic administration, the Democrats

54:29

controlled we mean well, they

54:31

control the Congress and they control presidency.

54:35

They certainly do not control the courts. It

54:37

seems like the Republicans are gained

54:40

the right wing, even though smaller numbers,

54:42

are gaining evermore power. They

54:44

have the state governments, and

54:47

that's a big deal. And that's because they

54:49

can, you know, they can gerrymander

54:51

these districts where they can stay in power. But

54:56

it's really strange. I mean, like they're

55:00

supposed to be pro business, right, well,

55:03

you haven't her Abbot back in Texas.

55:06

He you know, if he doesn't like your

55:08

policies, he'll come after you. And

55:12

any club there that tries to do a mask

55:14

mandate or a vacts mandate is

55:17

immediately threatened with the loss of their liquor

55:19

license. And

55:21

for some reason, they where he's a precient you

55:23

know, it's it's government oversight if

55:26

the Feds tell Texas what to do. But

55:28

if the state of Texas tells a private business

55:30

that can't have a mask mandate,

55:33

then there's that's patriotism. They're fighting

55:35

for your individual freedoms. And

55:39

I don't understand how he can spend that to

55:41

his advantage, but but his followers

55:44

will. They'll just do anything

55:46

to keep from doing what the Liberals do. They'll

55:49

take calf medicine I have relatives who take

55:51

calf medicine, bovine

55:54

and equine d warmer, and

55:58

you bother to get into it with him.

56:00

No, So once again,

56:03

you know there's a long there's a big

56:05

stand right now amongst the right wing

56:08

and the white nationalists, etcetera. Even

56:10

though the country is going more

56:13

multi colored, shall I say, in the whites

56:15

are decreasing in percentage of population,

56:19

but certainly in Florida there

56:21

are a lot of people Latinos who

56:23

voted Republican and

56:25

you're living in Texas. I mean, is

56:28

it just gonna go on this way or is

56:30

there going to be an inflection point? It'll

56:35

it'll go on this way as long as they can keep it

56:37

going on. I mean, they've

56:40

always preached that the white

56:43

men is outnumbered. Well maybe now he actually

56:45

is. So they're freaking out. You

56:47

know, they're losing

56:49

their minds. We had a black

56:51

president that freaked

56:54

him out. I remember seeing a sign in in

56:57

Utah or no it was in it was in Idaho. It's

56:59

just on the outside of loww Pass, a

57:01

big sign by this cabin in the middle of

57:03

the woods. Congratulations, Jimmy

57:06

Carter, you are now the second worst president

57:08

in US history. There's

57:10

another line in your new album talking

57:12

about you know they're gonna need

57:14

the Mexicans to actually build

57:17

the wall. Yeah, that's the last an

57:19

idea that's been battered around. And Tom Russell

57:21

wrote a song Who's Gonna Build Your Wall? I just

57:23

I just made a different spin on it. So

57:26

what is the backstory of the Glasses song?

57:30

Uh? We Uh. There's a festival

57:32

in the Florida Panhandle called

57:35

the thirty A Festival and it takes

57:37

place in January and multi

57:40

stage, multi venue, a lot of bands

57:42

coming in and out, and it all takes

57:44

place along Florida Highway

57:46

thirty Alternate, which

57:49

runs from runs Pensacola out

57:51

through Destin, Fort Walton Beach, goes

57:54

all the way over Mexico Beach, Panama

57:56

City. Um,

57:59

but if I've played it a number

58:01

of times yet to get in and out of that

58:03

festival without freezing

58:05

to the bone at some point, because

58:08

when the wind blows out of the north in North

58:10

Florida, it's the same north

58:12

wind that goes through Texas, and it

58:14

gets cold, especially when you know right there by the Gulf

58:17

you got that damp cold, it just goes

58:20

right to you and it

58:22

can be miserable. So I don't

58:25

know why I just started messing with words about

58:27

you know, she woke up mad, trying to pick

58:29

a fight. I got the thing

58:31

going, UM written

58:34

most of the song for it. The

58:36

glasses was just supposed to be a placeholder,

58:39

you know, I heard it in my head while I'll

58:41

put that in there until I get to where

58:43

I can write a real chorus. But

58:46

then I hadn't finished the song. When I sang

58:48

it. It sound checked just for a lark, and

58:52

and it's stuck. Just you

58:55

know, it seemed to sing okay, and

58:57

it wasn't hurting the song. And you know

59:01

everybody that heard saying, I'll just leave that in there. It's

59:03

fine. Now

59:05

there's a line there where you talk about the woman

59:07

being in the shower and she's a lude. You

59:10

know, we live in the meat too. Era. Needless

59:12

to say, you've established that this is fiction. You're

59:14

writing again characters. But do you ever internally

59:16

blink saying, oh, I'm gonna write

59:19

this and I'm gonna get blowback. Maybe I should maybe

59:21

I shouldn't. Ah, Yeah,

59:23

I mean I get some

59:26

some places, I get a little twinsies singing Choctaw

59:28

bingo and I wrote that a while back before

59:30

the Meat Too era. Um,

59:33

there may come a day I don't get to sing that anymore.

59:37

Things mean different things in different

59:39

eras, So

59:41

I don't know right now. I'm still taking my chances

59:45

and about what's the matter? Which I find

59:47

the catchiest song and a great song on the album

59:49

even though it's close to the end. How'd you come up

59:51

with that? Uh?

59:54

Decades of riding along listening to people

59:56

talking on cell phones in a van, Yeah

1:00:00

have been. I've been listening to that since the cell phone came

1:00:02

about pretty much. And

1:00:05

uh, how did you decide on the order

1:00:07

of the record? The track

1:00:10

listing? That

1:00:13

is always always tricky. Um,

1:00:17

yeah, you find one to start and you follow

1:00:20

it. You don't want to be you have too many

1:00:22

songs in the same key or the same groove,

1:00:25

so you have to separate everything out that's going to cancel

1:00:27

itself, you know. And this

1:00:29

record was really tricky because I had three songs

1:00:32

and six. Don't

1:00:34

ever put three songs and six on the same record.

1:00:37

You know. If I had it to do again, I'd have written one

1:00:39

more song and bumped one of those sixes. But

1:00:43

but we got it done. And

1:00:46

how much of the record was written in the studio.

1:00:49

How much the songs were pretty much finished?

1:00:51

How do you do it? I probably

1:00:53

had six really complete

1:00:55

songs and all

1:00:59

I finished decent. Man at

1:01:01

that uh,

1:01:04

that roadway in in Culver

1:01:06

City. Um, i'd

1:01:08

come rattling, and I've driven out there without

1:01:10

the band. I was just driving a van full

1:01:12

of gear and

1:01:16

I came in. I

1:01:19

got I got in just before rush hour, so I

1:01:21

was just kind of tense

1:01:23

and I got in. I got off the freeway, and first thing I

1:01:25

did is fill up my tank because being

1:01:28

from Texas, I assume when I go to California

1:01:30

there's gonna be an earthquake. Sitting

1:01:32

on a freeway for four hours trying to get out of

1:01:34

there after the ground stopped shaking, so I better

1:01:36

have a full tank. I filled

1:01:39

up. Remember it was four

1:01:41

dollars and nine cents for gallant regular.

1:01:44

Um. I went down the street, checked

1:01:47

into the motel, went next

1:01:49

door and there's a pizza place that

1:01:52

had a decent glass of all back and

1:01:55

so just kind of recovering from

1:01:57

that freeway. And then but

1:01:59

I said that they're playing on the sound sets

1:02:01

and they're playing all the most obnoxious hits from

1:02:03

the seventies and eighties, and

1:02:06

I can't enjoy it, and I'm

1:02:08

just about to leave and

1:02:10

just leave the wine on the counter and leave, and hear

1:02:13

Freddie Mercury, You're saying, Mama, I

1:02:15

just killed him man like. And then I remembered

1:02:18

that decent man song that I started ten

1:02:20

years ago and thought, Okay,

1:02:22

now I gotta go back and finish that thing. So

1:02:25

I did. That's that's how I wounded up on the record,

1:02:28

because that the story, that

1:02:30

song story came from a short story

1:02:33

by Wendell Berry called Pray

1:02:36

Without Ceasing, and

1:02:39

I had read that and for some reason I started

1:02:41

putting it the song from a different point

1:02:43

of view. I put it from the

1:02:45

murderer's point of view, and

1:02:48

but basically just changed the season of the year

1:02:50

and the chambering of the pistol. Otherwise,

1:02:54

that's Wendell's story. And I actually I

1:02:56

sent him a letter later saying, Hey, you

1:02:59

want song credit on this. You want to write a credit

1:03:01

because it's your story, And he said, no, it's a different

1:03:03

medium. He left me. He left me a real nice

1:03:05

voicemail about it. Cool.

1:03:09

Now, anybody you've seen you live with the band knows

1:03:11

you're quite a lead guitar player. Ultimately,

1:03:14

David Grissom is brought in by Ross on

1:03:17

this record. What was the backstory

1:03:19

there and how much of the playing was you

1:03:21

and how much was playing with somebody else? Very

1:03:24

little of the playing was me. Um,

1:03:28

it's not I'm not used to trying

1:03:30

to track as a four piece, and

1:03:32

the songs are so fresh that you know, I was just getting

1:03:34

in the way. So I just put the guitar down

1:03:37

and just sang to lead the session. And

1:03:41

you know, and I'm not not that great in

1:03:43

the studio, and I say, you know, if

1:03:46

you're slowing a session down, you gotta

1:03:48

cut out whatever slow You gotta keep the session

1:03:50

moving as the main rule. And

1:03:53

Grissom's the studio guy, so you

1:03:56

know, he played most of the guitar. I played that that

1:03:58

little hook on uh

1:04:01

Glass on Fort Walton,

1:04:04

the own thing on the right, and a

1:04:06

little bit of acoustic guitar on Conola Fields,

1:04:08

and I did the solo on I'm

1:04:10

About Cattle. But

1:04:14

now it's a studio record, you know, So

1:04:18

when you're at home, when you're not on the road, do

1:04:20

you pick up the guitar or you're

1:04:23

checked out? When you're home. I do

1:04:25

now, it's weird. For a long time

1:04:27

I didn't touch a guitar if I wasn't getting paid

1:04:29

too. It was like, at some point

1:04:31

the guitar became work. I'm

1:04:34

starting to come out of that mentality

1:04:36

now. Or I'll pick up a guitar and just you know,

1:04:39

play for twenty minutes, half hour. And I always

1:04:42

feel better after I do it. But for a while there,

1:04:44

I'd have to force myself to start. And

1:04:49

if you have to do it all over again, would you choose

1:04:51

this career path? Yeah?

1:04:54

I believe I would. And

1:04:56

how do you feel about your body of work? I

1:05:00

I don't think about it much. It's

1:05:02

the work in front of me that matters.

1:05:06

Really, it's maintaining

1:05:09

the ability to keep creating.

1:05:14

Well, do you have a peak that you can

1:05:16

mentally conjure you say,

1:05:18

I want to I want to push the envelope a little

1:05:20

bit more here, reach a

1:05:22

certain height. I

1:05:25

just want to continue And that usually means

1:05:27

improving, at least slightly as

1:05:29

you go. And

1:05:31

what have you improved that as you're going

1:05:34

on for thirty years, I've

1:05:36

improved it singing a good bit, and

1:05:38

that in turn has improved my writing Um.

1:05:42

There was a point in the nineties

1:05:45

when I would go, I'd start out on the road and

1:05:47

we do a couple of days, and usually

1:05:49

the third gig I would

1:05:52

lose my voice entirely and I have to just kind

1:05:54

of croak through the set somehow

1:05:56

make it there and then somehow would come back forth

1:05:59

or fifth gig. Well,

1:06:01

my bass player at the time, Ronnie Johnson, said,

1:06:03

James, you know, I know a good vocal coach. Just

1:06:05

go get some vocal training so

1:06:08

you get some some exercises so you don't

1:06:10

lose your voice anymore and

1:06:13

you don't have to struggle like that. So I did, and

1:06:15

uh, I went. I went to Maydi case she's

1:06:17

actually credited on this record, because I went back

1:06:21

for a tune up so I could hit some of those high notes

1:06:23

that I was clamming. And

1:06:27

but one of the things I learned from Maydie

1:06:29

is looking for

1:06:31

vowels and consonants that sing

1:06:33

well. If you know what sings

1:06:36

easy, you will write better because

1:06:38

you will write for a singer. You

1:06:41

know, it doesn't matter so much in poetry

1:06:43

or anything spoken word, but if you're

1:06:46

writing for for the vocal instrument,

1:06:49

then you want to pick your words you want.

1:06:51

You want to pick words that roll off the tongue,

1:06:53

that don't tongue tie you or hang you

1:06:55

up or choke your voice off in any way.

1:06:59

So yeah, it say vocal training

1:07:01

has really improved my songwriting more

1:07:04

than anything else. So you stated earlier

1:07:06

you're not much of a reader, but then

1:07:08

you quote Tennis and you quote the other person

1:07:11

you based the song on. You talk about reading

1:07:13

the wappo. How do you spend

1:07:15

your time when you're not working? Oh,

1:07:20

I do a lot of staring into space. But

1:07:25

I used to hunt and fish a lot. I'm trying to get

1:07:27

back into that. UM

1:07:32

lately evans spending

1:07:34

a lot of time cooking for appraisers. I'm

1:07:38

sort of the wagon Boston Wagon wagon cook

1:07:40

on the appraisal crew. And

1:07:42

then, uh, how much

1:07:45

TV do you watch? I

1:07:47

don't watch any TV. UM.

1:07:51

TV frustrates me. In the cabal era,

1:07:56

in the satellite era, there's just too much. I

1:07:58

was an avid watcher of Johnny

1:08:01

Carson. When Carson went off

1:08:03

the air, I just kind of never reconnected with

1:08:05

the TV set. And

1:08:07

how about all these streaming TV shows?

1:08:10

The new era of television starting with the Sopranos.

1:08:14

Some of that I did catch some of the Sopranos

1:08:16

in various hotel rooms. I never I don't think

1:08:18

I ever watched the whole episode all the way through, because

1:08:20

it would always be you know that, flip it on

1:08:22

and we got a half hour or four we gotta go to

1:08:24

sound check that sort of thing. Um,

1:08:28

but that's that was good TV. And then some of the

1:08:30

uh and my son will

1:08:32

will set me down and make me watch stuff

1:08:35

every now and and

1:08:37

I thought Justified was amazing some

1:08:40

of those episodes. So

1:08:42

you'll check into a hotel and

1:08:45

you'll stare into the distance and let

1:08:47

your mind come up with stuff. Yeah,

1:08:51

yeah, pretty much. Or

1:08:53

I'll catch up on emails that

1:08:56

sort of thing. And

1:08:59

then spending a life

1:09:01

in hotel rooms. You

1:09:04

know, the roadway in is not the four seasons,

1:09:08

as long as there's a bed, or do you have a certain

1:09:10

level you don't like to go below, or you just see

1:09:12

this pain of being on the road. Um,

1:09:16

well, there are certain regions where

1:09:18

the roadway ends about what we

1:09:20

can afford. L

1:09:22

A is a roadway in town for us.

1:09:24

Now, I didn't used to be. We used to stay at the farmer's

1:09:27

daughter. Farmers daughters went four

1:09:29

dollars a night. Now you know we're

1:09:32

not gonna do that. Um.

1:09:34

There there was a great period where

1:09:37

I could do I got real good at price Line,

1:09:40

but then price Land took away the name of your

1:09:42

own price function that put

1:09:44

them on the map initially. So

1:09:46

I don't really bother with that anymore. But price

1:09:49

Land was great for a while. The

1:09:51

main thing for me is proximity to the gig.

1:09:54

If a nice hotel is going to add a

1:09:57

half hour in a van back and forth,

1:10:00

maybe a full hour after you've already driven a while,

1:10:03

I don't want that. I want to limit the van time.

1:10:07

Uh. Of course, like this tour here,

1:10:09

this is a COVID tour. We're not doing hotels,

1:10:11

we're basing out of airbnbs. So

1:10:14

do you view yourself as suey generous

1:10:17

just off on the landscape, Were

1:10:19

part of the American scene or

1:10:22

part of the continuum?

1:10:24

Where do you see in terms of context? I

1:10:29

don't think about it. And it's nice

1:10:31

if there is a category somebody can put

1:10:33

me in, because that usually sells more

1:10:35

records, gets you a little more exposure.

1:10:39

Um, it would probably be nicer if I were

1:10:41

if I could make my own category like Willie

1:10:43

Nelson, you know, somebody like that.

1:10:46

But I'm kind

1:10:48

of ambivalent about the whole thing right now, because

1:10:51

you know, one of the

1:10:53

problems with it, with with any kind of artistic

1:10:56

field, is you gotta get famous. And

1:11:00

um, the

1:11:02

meager level of fame that I have attained

1:11:07

up to this point can

1:11:09

be as enough of a pain in the ass if

1:11:11

I if I got bigger, it might be

1:11:14

a problem for me. One

1:11:16

thing about today, it's

1:11:18

very hard to make new fans. Are

1:11:22

you conscious of trying to make new fans?

1:11:24

Do you think you're making them? How

1:11:26

do you get them? What's your viewpoint on that.

1:11:30

I'm not consciously trying

1:11:32

to get them, because I wouldn't know how.

1:11:35

But I have been lucky that my crowd

1:11:37

is multi generational, and

1:11:39

I'm playing to the grandchildren of people

1:11:41

that were in my crowd thirty years ago, some

1:11:45

of them. Um,

1:11:47

and I've seen that. I've had people tell me that, oh yeah,

1:11:49

my parents turn me me onto your stuff, So

1:11:54

um, yeah, we need that.

1:11:57

That's probably why we're still going down

1:11:59

the road. And as you

1:12:01

still go down the road, I'm gonna let you go here,

1:12:03

James, thanks so much for giving us the backstory.

1:12:06

And the insight and taking the time. Well,

1:12:09

thank you, Bob, thanks for your help

1:12:12

over the years. I'm a big fan.

1:12:14

I mean, you know you're we met

1:12:16

back in that was the complex,

1:12:19

and we met at the Complex,

1:12:21

and we also met at McCabe's one

1:12:23

of your acoustic gigs. Yeah,

1:12:27

I remember you were doing candy Land at the Complex.

1:12:29

I was definitely there with Mike,

1:12:32

Yeah, Mike and Ross right, But

1:12:34

then you know you're stuck with those guys. You

1:12:37

know you're a loyal dude. But you know, I'm a big

1:12:39

fan. I'm always interested in what you have to

1:12:41

do. And it's hard

1:12:44

to listen to new music, not

1:12:47

so much because I'm

1:12:50

baked into the old. The

1:12:52

people tend to either be repeating

1:12:55

themselves or resting on their laurels.

1:12:57

And when I found amazing about your new

1:13:00

problem is you're speaking from an adult perspective,

1:13:03

whereas so many people from your generation

1:13:05

and older refused to do that.

1:13:08

They want to say, well, if I don't get old, you know,

1:13:10

I can fool people and you can't relate

1:13:12

to him. And I couldn't fool

1:13:14

the kids my way. They're

1:13:17

too sharp. Okay, thanks again, until

1:13:20

next time. This is Bob Left. SIDS,