0:00

Hey, it's Bobby Bones. Appreciate you listening to The

0:02

Bobby Bones Show podcast. I wanted to share

0:04

an episode of one of our podcasts from the Nashville

0:06

Podcast Network. In this episode of

0:08

The Velvet's Edge, Kelly talks to

0:10

psychologist, author and ted X

0:12

speaker Jolie Hamilton about how to get

0:14

the relationship that you want. Some psychoanalysis

0:17

stuff here. I think you'll like it. They talk about trust and jealousy

0:19

and triggers, owning your side of the street, not

0:22

just romantic but even a friendship. They

0:24

also discuss tips on what to do between

0:26

relationships if you are bouncing from one to the

0:28

next, if you're not married yet or engaged yet, or maybe you're

0:31

gonna try it again. All that's here. Subscribe

0:33

to this podcast if you like it on iHeartRadio,

0:36

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

0:38

get your podcast to search out The Velvet's Edge.

0:40

Hope you like it. A little dabble here

0:43

here's the show. Okay,

0:46

Well, it's February, which obviously

0:49

is easily known as the month of

0:51

love, so I felt like relationships

0:53

would be a really good topic to kind of approach

0:55

in different different aspects of relationships

0:58

this month is what I'm focusing on above a such.

1:00

So I wanted to talk to you a lot

1:03

about relationships

1:05

as we have them now, especially

1:08

if you are an entrepreneur, which is

1:10

what you kind of specialize in, and

1:12

I don't. I've never thought of it in these terms

1:15

of just how would being an entrepreneur

1:17

affect my whole life

1:19

or my dating relationships, my partnerships.

1:22

And I was doing a lot of research with the stuff that you've

1:24

researched, and I thought about it. I'm like, of

1:26

course it does, Like that just makes total

1:29

sense. So a lot of the relationship

1:31

work that you do is just around the dynamic of a

1:33

woman who is also an entrepreneur. So

1:35

can you tell us what are some of the things that you

1:38

see people bumping up against in

1:40

these situations? Oh? Yeah,

1:42

absolutely. So I

1:45

approach relationship work

1:48

as being like it is whole

1:50

life work, right, Your relationships impact

1:52

everything. But I've also been an entrepreneur

1:55

my whole life. I've only ever

1:57

worked for other people a tiny little smidgeon

2:00

and I think that that informed

2:02

how I approach my relationships. And what I mean is

2:05

when people have an entrepreneurial attitude,

2:07

so you don't have to be like in a startup

2:10

or you know, a one woman show,

2:12

to be entrepreneurial. Entrepreneur comes

2:14

from the French to manage, right, like

2:17

people who are doing their own thing,

2:19

And that's a lot of us. I

2:21

think people who are out there getting

2:24

stuff done, making a life, whether they're piecing

2:26

it together from a bunch of different jobs or a

2:28

bunch of different ideas,

2:30

that they're just like glomming together into a career.

2:33

Those people, they know that

2:35

they're in the driver's seat of their life,

2:37

right. So people who approach

2:40

their life that way in their career, well,

2:44

sadly they don't always translate that

2:46

skill into their home life,

2:48

into their love life. In fact, some of the people

2:50

I know who have struggled the most when they're dating

2:53

or trying to settle into a nice long term relationship,

2:55

they can really thrive in they're

2:58

so smart and they're so brilli and so

3:00

able to like knock things out of

3:02

the park in business. And

3:05

then they just make these same mistakes over

3:07

and over again. And so I

3:09

wanted to approach this problem

3:12

and say, let's transfer the skills. You

3:14

know, entrepreneurs are good at tolerating

3:18

risk and communicating in hard

3:20

situations and learning how

3:22

to diversify what they're doing. Those

3:24

are transferable to our relationships.

3:27

But we have to think about it that way. So that was where

3:29

the idea for this came, and I just started

3:32

walking down that road. Why

3:34

doesn't that translate out? That's interesting

3:36

to think about it that way, because if you go to work every

3:39

day, especially if you own your own business, every

3:41

day is different. You're approaching different

3:43

problems, you are met with different

3:45

risk, like you said, and there's a lot to

3:47

navigate and you kind of have to just roll with the

3:49

punches. It's a lot about finding

3:52

solutions, you know, and not focusing on the

3:54

problem. Why aren't we just naturally

3:57

doing that in our relationships Because

4:00

Freud was wrong about a lot of things, but he wasn't

4:02

wrong about everything. Okay,

4:05

you got one thing right, and that is that our early

4:07

life impacts how we walk

4:09

around in the world. Right. So

4:12

I'm not a Freudian. I kind of

4:14

loosely follow my Jungian training,

4:17

but I know

4:20

that as bright and shiny as

4:22

I am when I am in a boardroom

4:25

or I am working on a new deal,

4:29

when I'm at home and I'm dealing

4:31

with a tough situation with my lover, it

4:34

is so much more natural

4:37

to my body, Like it feels right in my

4:39

body to act out the patterns that I saw early

4:42

in life. So my primary caregiver's relationships

4:45

or whoever I was witnessing, like you

4:47

know, most of us, it's our parents, but it might

4:49

be anybody who forms that core

4:51

idea of what it means to love

4:54

each other. And then

4:58

chips and we look to be loved

5:00

in those same ways our bodies do, like

5:02

we look for it with our like most

5:05

unconscious self looks

5:08

for these patterns that weren't necessarily helpful.

5:10

How many of us were raised in a household

5:12

where we could truly say our

5:15

parents just they just did love

5:17

well. They were communicative and

5:20

gentle with each other and supportive. Like

5:22

parents make mistakes. I'm a parent. I have seven

5:24

kids. I screw up. They're going to have

5:26

to go out in the world and figure out how to

5:29

deal with the wounds that I've

5:31

left them. Each generation

5:34

has that right. So this burden that we bear,

5:36

it shows up in love so much

5:39

more than it shows up in business because in business we

5:41

we like put on our let's engage

5:43

our prefrontal cortex. I

5:46

show up and I try to apply myself

5:48

in this very structured

5:51

way. But then the body

5:54

can't stay that way all the time. So

5:56

we want to come home and we want to come into this

5:59

secure space. Or we can make mistakes and we

6:01

can bump up against each other and

6:04

out lots of vouches happen,

6:07

and then we get stuck in a pattern. We just repeat

6:09

it over and over. And that's where I

6:11

feel like we always have the opportunity

6:13

to interrupt our habits

6:15

and patterns, but first we have to notice that

6:18

that's what's running the show. Right. So

6:20

while you may put your armor on and go to work

6:22

and operated one way, when you come home,

6:25

you do want to let your guard down and you do sort

6:28

of want to relax into stuff. But that may

6:30

also look like bringing in the baggage from your

6:32

past. I never thought about it that way. Yeah,

6:34

yeah, and you know, we want to

6:37

There are a lot of ways to have relationship and

6:41

choosing what I call actually

6:43

there's this great scholar has a wonderful word,

6:45

soteriological. A soteriological

6:49

relationship is one that is like salvational.

6:52

It's an individuating relationship,

6:54

it's spiritual, it's deeply connecting

6:56

it. It helps you draw yourself

6:58

forward. I'm like your unique life

7:00

path. I think most

7:03

people want that kind

7:06

of relationship, but it's

7:08

not what we it's not what we ask for

7:10

day to day, day to day. Instead,

7:13

we worry about whether

7:15

the trash got taken out, whether the kids

7:17

need to get to nursery school. We were worried

7:19

about whether there's food on the table, and

7:21

we don't attend to these like

7:23

the souls call to be

7:26

in these like big, juicy relationships.

7:29

So it's about as much

7:31

as anything, we have to make a decision to

7:36

invest in our relationships. It's

7:39

not an easy one necessarily. I'm

7:42

laughing and smiling so much because I cannot

7:44

wait to make my boyfriend listen to this podcast

7:48

do anything about me. I mean, this is

7:50

what you just described is how I live my life.

7:52

And I don't know if it's because a failed

7:55

relationships passed or if it's a part

7:57

of just my personality or maybe the combination of

7:59

both. But I'm almost I have to

8:01

almost focus on not being so hyper vigilant

8:04

in avoiding the problem that

8:06

you know, like I'll overthink it

8:08

before it even happens. I'm trying to

8:10

learn some something that's not actually even happening.

8:13

Yes, so, and in my head,

8:15

the only way for me to not

8:17

bring in the stuff from my childhood

8:20

or stuff from other relationships is to

8:22

do therapy together. And so that's

8:25

been a very very big thing for me in my

8:27

adult relationships. And I was reading something

8:29

that you said though, where you're like, yeah, but if you have a

8:31

resistant partner, this doesn't mean

8:33

you have to just drag them to therapy to

8:36

have the kind of relationship that we're talking about.

8:38

But how else, how else do you do it?

8:40

I don't know. I think that

8:43

is a really okay. First off, I applaud

8:45

your like including therapy because I

8:47

am pro therapy. I think it's awesome,

8:50

and I know from my

8:53

own experience. I mean, I spent six years in

8:56

joint Jungian analysis with my current

8:59

primary partner, and that

9:02

makes all the difference absolutely.

9:04

But I have also been in relationships

9:06

and I've witnessed lots of people in relationships

9:08

where that partner is resistant, and the

9:11

poll to therapy just winds up becoming

9:13

a point, like a stuck

9:15

point where now we can't do

9:18

anything because all we argue about is whether we're going

9:20

to go to therapy or not, or

9:22

I go and then I resent you

9:24

and now I have something to be mad at you about.

9:26

That isn't actually the problem, right,

9:29

So if that is

9:32

part of the relationship, I like to think of it

9:34

two ways. If everything

9:36

is healthy from the perspective

9:38

of, like there's no overt abuse

9:41

going on, there's no covert coercive

9:43

abuse going on, and both

9:46

parties are committed to the idea of the relationship,

9:48

like we want this relationship. If

9:50

those boxes are all checked, another

9:53

option is to seek out a coach.

9:55

A coach doesn't necessarily therapize,

9:57

Like a coach may actually your

10:00

feet to the fire and say, y'all committed

10:02

to this kind of relationship. So

10:05

we're gon, we're gonna set some goals and we're going

10:08

to actually work through some processes that

10:10

are designed to get you to where you want to go.

10:12

That's a very different space to hold than

10:15

therapeutic space, where we're validating feelings.

10:17

We're staying with whatever the slowest

10:20

pace is in the room, we stay at that pace. They're

10:22

just two different ways of approaching

10:25

the process. So some people who are resistant

10:27

to therapy aren't resistant to the idea of like,

10:29

hey, actually we're okay, we just need a little coaching

10:31

to be better. And then

10:34

if you still have resistance, some

10:37

people are really cut out for self

10:39

managing these situations. And that's what

10:41

self help books were invented for, you

10:44

know. I mean, I think they got kind of a bad rap in like

10:46

the nineties, like everybody was turning

10:48

to self help books. But sometimes all

10:50

you need is a few good ideas to really turn

10:52

the corner in a relationship. So

10:55

I gain about it. In a relation

10:57

to a business or an entrepreneurhip,

11:01

we do these things every day. I

11:03

know for me, I'm constantly doing research

11:05

about you know, other ways I can grow

11:07

my business or trying to create

11:09

a better business plan, Like I'm putting in

11:11

the work at work to

11:14

grow that, And so why wouldn't

11:16

I do that within my relationship as well,

11:18

even doing the research or seeking outside

11:21

help counsel anything like that. Like

11:23

I do love the idea that you said. It just

11:25

takes the same mindset that

11:27

we would bring to a business. Absolutely,

11:30

So I ran across the gym. I've

11:33

owned twelve businesses. It's been a

11:36

journey through all sorts of things. But for a while

11:38

I owned I was lead trainer for

11:40

across it. And when I was doing that,

11:43

I knew that I constantly

11:46

had to adapt to the changing circumstances,

11:48

Like that was a really volatile business to be

11:50

in. And at

11:52

the same time, I was in a relationship

11:55

that was struggling, like big

11:57

time struggling, like needed therapy,

12:00

did therapy with snailing all over

12:02

the place. It was really really hard, and

12:04

yet we were really in love. And it was

12:06

when I realized that I needed

12:08

to apply my full the full

12:10

power of my decision

12:13

making processes and all of those things.

12:16

When I started applying that and said I'm gonna

12:18

study relationships out

12:21

of that disaster. By all accounts,

12:23

we should have ended in a flaming

12:25

pile, and instead we're

12:27

super happily married, and like I discussed

12:30

myself with how happy we are, so

12:33

like it is possible to just put in the

12:35

effort to

12:38

change the habits and focus

12:40

on a different set of things, because

12:42

we get caught up in focusing on, like, you

12:44

know, two or three things, and often

12:46

they're not the real source of the trouble

12:48

in our relationships. And then something

12:51

else I'm hearing in that too, is I

12:53

love. I just love equating this to business because

12:55

I think that's a lot easier for people to not

12:58

get so emotionally volatile when I think

13:00

about you know, like it doesn't feel so personal

13:02

maybe, but it just

13:04

in thinking about In my partner's

13:07

defense, he's very good at trying

13:10

to find the thing that he can hear me

13:12

on that is a one tangible thing that he

13:14

could change that he know that he knows

13:17

means so much to me, even

13:19

if he thinks it's stupid, he can

13:21

hear it and go, Okay, I know that this

13:24

is super important to Kelly, and so I'm going to

13:26

try day by day to make this a part

13:28

of my practice or whatever it is. And that's what we

13:30

do for our coworkers, right, Or if you're a buy you

13:32

do to all the employees is you listen,

13:34

because that's how business grows and it's

13:36

not it's a dictatorship and that never works out.

13:39

It never works out. Yeah, absolutely,

13:41

So that would be one tip to me, would

13:43

be just because everyone wants to just be heard, right,

13:46

And I think partnerships a lot of times

13:49

that is the one place where we just get a little set

13:51

in our ways and we're just like, no, I can't

13:53

hear that, or do we take it personal or anything,

13:56

or we can't hear it the way that it's being

13:58

presented and we get caught in. I

14:00

need it to be presented in a very specific way

14:02

or I will reject. Right. So, if

14:04

he's going out of his way to you

14:07

know, to show up and do something that

14:10

you know is important, if you can actually

14:12

just see that and see that he may not do it the

14:15

exact way that you were hoping

14:17

for, but if you can acknowledge

14:20

first that he showed

14:22

up and then he's trying and he's doing and

14:25

then over time ask for

14:27

tweaks. That is, you know, the

14:30

arc of a change, of a transformation, right,

14:32

we want change so instantaneously.

14:35

These are long story arcs. You know we're talking about

14:37

If you want to be a lifetime partner,

14:40

you could be talking about anywhere from you know, ten

14:42

to fifty years together, right, So allow

14:45

it to be a process. And you're going to have

14:47

many different relationships. You're

14:50

going to be married lots of times in that merriage,

14:52

right in different in these

14:54

evolutions of you. So

14:56

just letting him grow the

14:59

pace that he is and show up

15:01

for you as he can today, that's

15:04

powerful. It's powerful for you too,

15:06

So That's so true, because you're exactly

15:09

right. When I actually see him taking

15:11

the steps, even if it's not what

15:13

I would or how I would do, it is basically the

15:16

way that my brain works. It

15:18

means so much to me to watch him try. Yeah,

15:20

so if I can focus on that part of

15:22

it instead of like, oh, well we did it, but

15:24

like I wanted it this way, Stiff, you know, wait,

15:27

right? Why it's so interesting

15:29

the thing about change I do. I just want it right

15:31

overnight, I set I wanted this, this is

15:33

how I need it, so do it that way or

15:35

whatever. But that kind of defeats

15:37

the purpose and starts a whole other argument. Right,

15:40

it's when we it's so easy

15:42

to get caught in our desire for control. Right.

15:44

We don't control the world, and we

15:46

just don't. So we wink

15:49

up every day and there's an awareness

15:51

in us that we don't control the world,

15:54

and that awareness is terrifying

15:57

to our inner self. Right, so we try,

15:59

we reach and we look for ways that

16:01

we can control. And it's not like we're

16:03

overtly walking around saying I'm going to

16:05

control these things. In fact, it doesn't feel

16:07

like we're trying to control anything but

16:12

control gives us a sense that we

16:14

have some say in how

16:16

this thing called reality, how we interact

16:19

with it. So yeah, it feels

16:21

good to say I want it done this

16:23

way, and yet in fact

16:25

we want variety, we want novelty,

16:28

We want our partner to be different from us. I

16:30

don't want to be married to myself. That does

16:32

not sound good, so I want him to be different.

16:35

But I also wanted to do it my way. Is that

16:37

really true? So I use that question. I check myself,

16:40

is it true that I want him to do it exactly

16:42

my way? And if I've really

16:45

let that sink in, then

16:47

I remember that in fact he's actually

16:49

gentler than I am. He's slower

16:51

paced, which drives me bonkers. But it also

16:54

means that there's this like calm wave, like

16:56

oh wait, I love those things. So

16:58

let go of the control a little little bit and

17:00

allow yourself to be part of this world

17:03

that, unfortunately we'll cause

17:05

some damage, will cause some ouch. It's

17:07

not easy to be alive, right,

17:10

that's someone lastic on the podcast that

17:12

it's not easy to be human. It's just not

17:16

not an easy one. I love thinking

17:18

about control, equating

17:20

that to safety. I don't think I really put those two together.

17:22

But I do the same thing. I think, if

17:24

I can get it this way or fit it in this box,

17:27

get everyone to do what I need them to do, especially

17:30

at home, then I'm safe. And that's

17:32

just not it's a false sense of security, for sure.

17:35

It is. Yeah. We we love

17:37

the idea of permanent, immutable

17:41

safety. Yes, I mean, which

17:43

feels like sure, that's natural. And so

17:45

maturity is coming to understand that

17:47

we actually can be flexible,

17:50

resilient and have

17:52

the capacity to allow

17:54

ourselves to bend

17:56

and to change and then and then

17:59

adapt to that change. And

18:01

I mean there are big structural things

18:03

that are going to hurt us and you know, big things

18:05

that need change in this world.

18:08

So if we if we're always

18:11

worried about trying to control the infantasmal

18:13

little bits of our life, I

18:15

don't think we can apply that energy

18:18

like to to the bigger world change we

18:20

actually want to see, and that's you know, huge

18:22

scale, business scale, and like

18:25

our family, like sometimes I think

18:27

if I if I control everything and

18:29

get it the way I want, honestly, I

18:32

couldn't do anything else.

18:35

It would be it would be a full time job just to make

18:38

sure that the spoons are lined up right. Well.

18:41

Also, when you were just saying that, I was

18:43

thinking, well, how boring would that be? I know,

18:46

board and probably create some new drama because

18:48

that's just what I do. So yes,

18:51

yeah, because the poll between wanting

18:53

security and wanting novel real

18:55

esther Parrel talks about that them that paradox,

18:57

right, we want both and

19:00

that's not just for sex, that's everything

19:02

we want this pull yeah

19:05

subconscious. So okay, if people

19:07

are listening and you know, we're talking

19:09

about a relationship and making or

19:12

working on the relationship that you're already

19:15

in, that you're currently in. And so if people are listening

19:17

and they're unfulfilled in their relationship and they're

19:19

doing that back and forth of like yeah,

19:21

but you know X, Y and Z, and I don't

19:23

know if this is something that could change over time,

19:25

And how do you know when

19:28

it's too much to keep doing

19:30

the work and to keep trusting that

19:32

over time the baby steps are

19:34

going to add up to be something that

19:36

works versus it's just

19:38

time to get out of this relationship and go This

19:42

is the hardest question that I get, and

19:46

I think that it is I

19:50

take a breath breath with it when someone asks

19:52

me personally if they should stay or

19:54

go, I always feel the immense

19:56

responsibility that comes with them, even having

19:58

asked the question, even though I'm going to say, of course,

20:00

I can't make that decision for you, right,

20:03

But I take a breath with it because in

20:06

truth, I don't think it matters. I

20:09

think that what matters is that you decide

20:11

for yourself yes or no,

20:14

that you stop staying on the fence and that in between

20:16

space, and that you either commit and

20:18

you get in. You're both feet in or you're both

20:20

feet out. That liminal

20:22

space is of limited use.

20:25

Liminal space means we're in the in between,

20:27

and it can be transformative.

20:30

But if you stay there too long, all

20:32

you're doing is hedging your bets. You're

20:34

not in the relationship and therefore

20:36

you're not going to be showing up with your full self.

20:39

And whatever your partner's doing, those

20:41

baby steps or whatever, they may not even really

20:43

touch you. So I say it's

20:46

not so much whether you stay or go, but that

20:48

you decide one way or the other, and then

20:50

you decide to work on your side of the street.

20:53

You decide to get in and do your work, because

20:55

if you change, you're part of a system. You

20:59

change, the system will change. So that

21:01

doesn't mean you should stay. If somebody's being abusive,

21:03

coercive, or you just decide you don't

21:06

like them anymore, leave, that's

21:08

fine. I am. I am no fan

21:11

of staying just for staying sake. In fact, I think

21:13

that we give far too much weight to the idea

21:15

of longevity being the measure of a

21:17

perfect relationship. I know plenty

21:19

of people who've been married for fifty years, but don't hold

21:21

hands at their at fifty at the anniversary party.

21:24

That is not what I'm shooting for.

21:26

What I'm shooting for is I'm all in.

21:29

I'm showing up, and I'm

21:31

here not just for my growth but my partner's

21:33

growth and vice versa. Yeah,

21:35

yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, to me, I

21:38

notice it's such a difference in my life when

21:40

I'm in a relationship with dating relationship

21:42

or a romantic relationship and when I'm not. And

21:45

my life actually a lot of times when I'm on my

21:47

own seems a little less chaopic,

21:49

you know, it seems it seems just

21:53

I don't know, there doesn't seem to be as much that I'm

21:55

bumping up against. However, what

21:57

I've learned now is I always pick a partner

21:59

who's going mirror the exact thing

22:01

that I need to work on in my life. And yeah,

22:04

you know, as frustrating as it can be,

22:07

sometimes I have to remind myself of that because

22:09

if I'm bumping up against something or my partner's

22:11

bumping up against something, to me,

22:13

it's no mistake that we are exactly

22:16

the people that we are in the relationship

22:18

that we're in, because it only allows healing

22:20

if you really are willing to do the work exactly

22:23

you just name you named it. It's

22:26

we pull ourselves into these situations.

22:28

We get ourselves into these situations where

22:31

we have the opportunity to grow.

22:34

Whether we whether we decide to or not, that's

22:36

another that's another question. You know,

22:38

we do have to decide to. And if you find

22:41

yourself having landed in a relationship

22:43

or landed in like the tenth relationship

22:45

in a row, where the same kind

22:47

of dynamic is happening, then

22:50

that's the time to take yourself to therapy. That's

22:52

not about the relationship. Get yourself to

22:54

therapy and start from there, because

22:57

just taking a year off even and

22:59

doing intense therapy with enough

23:01

time like all the time that you right now

23:04

relate to a person and spend

23:06

like trying to make it work. If you

23:08

worked on yourself that way, how

23:10

much different would your life feel? And

23:13

I mean that was an invaluable time for

23:16

me to like the time when I focused on,

23:18

oh, I have to change my patterns.

23:21

I grew up in a terribly dysfunctional household,

23:23

which meant I was terribly

23:25

dysfunctional in my first marriage. It

23:28

really didn't matter what he was doing. It

23:30

mattered that I finally decided to

23:33

try over, try again with myself. Yeah,

23:36

oh, I love that trying it with yourself.

23:39

And I also think that it's it's not one or

23:41

the other, you know. I think that it's like you said,

23:43

it depends on maybe

23:45

the time or the place you are in your life. I've done

23:47

a lot of my own individual work, so much

23:49

so that I used to be like, why am I

23:52

not fixed yet? You know, like this is just

23:55

like this is I'm done with that, right, Like

23:57

I've done enough therapy, I've done enough intensives,

24:00

done enough whatever. And again

24:02

it would be bumping up against myself

24:04

in these relationships and my therapist. Actually, you

24:06

know, I'd say like why am I still in this

24:08

place where I was. She's like, this is not the same place.

24:11

Yes, deeper place, and this is the layer

24:14

that you would not have been able to get to if

24:16

you hadn't done all that work. But maybe

24:18

there's still some wounding that needs to be healed.

24:21

Yeah. Yeah, I love

24:23

the image of the spiral for that if

24:26

because we always come back sticky

24:28

spot, It's going to be in the same spot in the spiral,

24:30

but we come back to it at a deeper layer. We

24:33

never step in the same river twice, you know. Harro Clytis

24:35

said that like four thousand years ago, and we

24:38

really don't. We're not just

24:40

recapitulating. We may be recapitulating

24:44

stuff from our childhood, but we're not just doing

24:46

that. If we're doing that while also bringing

24:48

ourselves to new layers of awareness,

24:51

then these new ways that we're

24:53

not showing up for ourselves or were, or

24:55

we're letting ourselves down like

24:58

really like out of integrity with our If

25:01

you bring awareness to that, that's

25:03

the opportunity for growth right there. Even

25:05

just becoming aware like I can't believe I'm

25:07

doing this for the tenth time. Yeah,

25:10

so frustrating that pit in

25:12

my stomach. You hit a chord with me with that for sure.

25:15

Yeah. Yeah, you can't just stop behaviors,

25:17

right Like, I mean, you cannot will

25:19

yourself to stop something, and I have

25:22

tried. Yeah, there's certain

25:24

things that I get triggered, and if I'm not aware

25:26

of the trigger or where it's coming from, I

25:29

cannot stop right right,

25:31

It's not gonna stop. So people talk about

25:34

wanting to cure things

25:36

like jealousy or something like. That's something that's like

25:38

an over and over again problem for them. They

25:40

want to cure it. So I studied union

25:43

psychology, and the reason I'm so glad

25:45

I did is this so

25:48

young psychology is pretty old. We're

25:50

you know, we're going back to early twentieth

25:52

century for most of his writings,

25:55

and in there he talked

25:57

about complexes, and a complex

25:59

is agreed concept. It's it's

26:01

just this idea that there's this like spot,

26:04

this sticky spot in your soul

26:06

or your being or your mind, however you

26:08

want to think of it. It's a sticky

26:10

spot that collects It's like really

26:13

easy for it to collect up more energy.

26:15

So over a course of a lifetime, it

26:18

gets more and more stuff

26:20

happening to it. So jealousy maybe becomes

26:22

a sticking point for you or or

26:24

your or your father, the way you relate to your father,

26:26

the father complex, or the way you

26:28

relate to um, somebody

26:31

who always lets you down.

26:33

Right, So we get these sticky spots and

26:35

we keep collecting this energy around him.

26:37

That complex just stays with us

26:39

exactly like you said, it just it

26:42

just cannot be thought out

26:44

of. We can't think our way out of it. So instead

26:47

Young talked about you don't get rid of

26:49

them, because that's actually your life force. If

26:51

you tried to get rid of it, you would actually

26:54

be like it's it's a psychological

26:56

death. You'd be you'd

26:59

be like taking out your your libido,

27:01

your energy. So instead, we want to

27:03

learn to dance with that complex, how to

27:05

how we want to get to know it better and better,

27:08

so that when we circle back around and we're like, oh,

27:10

we're here again, we're like, Okay, I

27:12

know how to dance with this. I'm gonna I'm gonna

27:14

move with it, and we're gonna let it happen in

27:17

a new way because just because we're

27:19

triggered, we don't have to respond in the same

27:21

way we always have. Right, you

27:23

can identify what's happening, and then do something

27:25

different because what's

27:28

being hit. So you mentioned a couple of different

27:30

ways to kind of turn your trajectory around.

27:33

So it's you know, maybe there's people

27:35

listening who aren't even in a relationship at all

27:37

right now, and they're taking the break that you mentioned

27:39

and they're working on themselves. How do you

27:41

not make the same mistakes the second

27:43

you start dating again and you're really

27:46

wanting to find another relationship,

27:48

but you want to do it differently, right, Okay,

27:51

two things are really really important. The

27:53

first is that when you're doing

27:56

so, when you're taking your time off, or you're

27:58

or you're in between, and we're in the midst of some

28:01

time that's tough to date, Actually

28:04

take that time off. Don't spend all the time

28:06

that you're that you're not dating. Don't

28:09

spend it looking at dating sites and thinking about

28:11

that. Really turn the mirror, like

28:14

look inside. Take

28:16

the time. Actually take the time, do the therapy,

28:18

do the homework, read

28:21

the books, do all the things. Then

28:23

when you're ready to start again, get an

28:25

accountability partner, like

28:28

pull in a friend somebody who

28:30

has seen you make the same mistakes over and over

28:32

again. Somebody that you can trust, because

28:34

often we do have great friends there

28:38

and they do see these things, or maybe we

28:40

have a sister or whatever, ask

28:42

them to help you see what you can't

28:44

see. We so often

28:47

pit our friendships against

28:49

our partners, and this is part of why,

28:52

because our friends have a little bit of distance from

28:54

it. They know us a little bit, and they're like, you're

28:56

doing it again. And if we

28:58

would just believe ourselves, if

29:00

we just believe our friends and say,

29:03

oh I am okay, so we can get an accountability

29:05

partner on and just like debrief

29:07

the date, but not from the this

29:09

went bad, this went good? But from how

29:12

did I show up at that date? Was I people

29:14

pleasing? Was I trying to perform?

29:17

Was I like laughing at jokes that weren't

29:19

funny because I was trying to

29:21

lean into the relationship or I'm inventing

29:23

a relationship that hasn't even started yet. Because

29:26

those are all really common moves,

29:28

especially for women. They're really

29:30

really common moves. Yeah,

29:33

so call yourself out by just having

29:35

that, you know, a fifteen minute chat after a date,

29:38

like, uh, I did it again, So

29:40

I'm not actually showing up the way I want to

29:42

cool I'm gonna take a breather, I'm

29:45

gonna I'm gonna do another worksheet. I'm gonna like

29:47

check in with myself, you know, turn to my higher

29:49

guidance, whatever tools you're using, there's lots

29:51

and lots of them, and then I'll

29:53

try again. So you're just bringing awareness

29:56

to it. But that accountability,

29:58

the external accountability, helps

30:00

you make it real because we will

30:02

just trick ourselves inside, like

30:04

we form these little diads

30:07

inside of us and we're like, oh, no, you totally got

30:09

this. It's totally fine. This is going to be different this time.

30:11

Yeah, don't believe. I don't believe that.

30:17

Well. Also, I think it that involves

30:20

because I was thinking, oh, that's a great idea

30:22

to have an accountability partner, and I was thinking

30:25

of myself in that situation. I think

30:27

it would involve a lot of letting

30:29

go of the shame of I'm

30:31

doing this again, because to me,

30:34

I'm a perfectionist. I want to do you

30:36

know, I want to say I learned that lesson, I'm

30:38

done with it. And instead, sometimes

30:41

if I'm doing something again, I want to hide for my friends

30:43

because I don't want to be called out because I'm embarrassed

30:46

that I can't, Like we were talking about just stop of behavior.

30:49

Yes, So the reason I

30:52

I say somebody you trust is because this

30:54

is shamework. This is the

30:57

way that we get out of the stories

30:59

from our childhood is to actually

31:02

come face to face with our shame

31:05

and address it, address it

31:07

the same way we would a small child. We

31:10

have to go through a process with ourselves. You

31:12

know. The whole concept of like inner child

31:14

work is you know, it's so it

31:16

can feel so gooey, right and like, oh goodness,

31:19

I'm gonna have to go there. Yeah,

31:21

for parts of it, you really do have to

31:24

be as tender with yourself as you would

31:26

with a three year old. Right, So

31:29

if you have if you have

31:31

no idea that you feel shame, you

31:33

probably have so much shame that it's piled

31:36

to the ceilings. Right. We all

31:38

have our shame spots. So yeah, allowing

31:41

that this is a way to actually I think this

31:43

is the best way I've ever deepened my friendships

31:45

too. So while we're talking about dating and

31:47

romance, all of the stuff

31:50

that I write about in the book and

31:52

all the stuff that you do to

31:54

have a conscious relationship, do that with your friends.

31:57

So if you're not ready to date again, how about

31:59

a conscious friendship. How about really

32:01

deciding to have the hard conversations,

32:04

lean into the awkward moments, expose

32:06

these parts of ourselves that feel really

32:09

tender and scary, and

32:13

try that first before we

32:15

worry about whether we can find somebody who's supposed

32:17

to be our lifelong partner and somebody

32:19

who's great in bed and they look just the way we

32:21

want, and they're going to co parent with us perfectly,

32:23

and they're going to do all the things friends.

32:28

I have a mentor who says when

32:31

she kind of isn't

32:34

she's you know, I think she's seventies. So she's had

32:36

a lot of experience with bumping

32:38

up against herself, and she has a funny

32:40

way of just kind of pulling herself

32:42

out of the shame when she does something, or she'll

32:45

be triggered and she's starting to do a behavior again,

32:47

she notices it. Now, that's the blessing

32:49

of having life experience, and

32:52

she says, she just says herself, up, I'm

32:54

doing that again, giggling

32:56

at herself in a gentle way,

32:58

and it releases the shame and it's just like,

33:01

oh, I don't like how that feels. So I'm not going

33:03

to do it that way. I know that from experience,

33:05

you know, but not going into the place of judging

33:07

ourselves for doing certain things

33:09

again or getting in certain mindsets

33:12

again those tapes that play over. Yeah

33:14

again, that is a wonderful tip

33:16

because I mean, laughter is

33:18

the only way to deal with the messiest emotions,

33:21

like really gentle laughter, Like oh

33:23

yeah, you got to have a sense of humor to be flexible

33:25

and resilient, you really do. So

33:28

that's a wonderful way to approach. Yeah,

33:31

the way that can feel. If anyone thinks

33:33

that inner child work is not real, take

33:36

out a picture of yourself as a

33:38

child, and for me doing

33:40

that kind of thing in therapy, and you literally all

33:42

look at a picture of myself as a seven year old

33:44

or something and starts sobbing. So something

33:47

is real, you know. I mean, oh yeah, you're

33:49

connecting to something that I

33:51

just think we all try to push down and not

33:53

deal with because it can be very painful.

33:56

Yeah, and it works with our partners too. So

33:59

recently, my father

34:01

passed away, and so I was pulling pictures out

34:03

of the house and I found this old picture

34:05

of myself. I'm little and I stuck it on the fridge,

34:08

and I noticed that my partner

34:10

would stop and look at it, and so

34:13

we put a picture of him up too, And I thought, oh,

34:16

yeah, the acknowledgement that inside

34:18

of us lives this little

34:20

person. And so I actually with

34:23

all my I have seventeenagers, so there's

34:26

a lot of hormone and a lot of stuff going on in this house.

34:28

I changed all of their like their text

34:31

faces, I changed them back to their baby faces,

34:33

just to remind myself, like, okay, that

34:35

text was coming from a place where

34:38

they aren't totally feeling safe

34:40

and secure. How would I respond when

34:42

they were five? Chill out and

34:44

be nice. I love

34:46

that idea with the partner. I'm actually gonna

34:48

do that. Yeah, it's it's

34:51

so helpful. Yeah, when you think of them as

34:53

that child, I mean, it's so hard to just I

34:55

just want to hug him and love on him. Of

34:58

what you know, And so I think that we can

35:00

always remember that part of our

35:02

partners. That would be such a good way to

35:05

have more empathy and grace with each other. That's

35:07

the word empathy and grace. Absolutely,

35:09

yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah, Well

35:12

you kind of touched on jealousy earlier.

35:14

And I was telling you earlier that I watched your

35:16

TEDx talk about jealousy,

35:18

and I find it fascinating because this is

35:20

definitely something I struggled with in my life. I was cheated

35:23

on in a major way in an engagement, and

35:25

so it's you know, I've really had to do

35:27

a lot of work around those insecurities

35:29

in my relationships that have been

35:31

after that. And again, it's one of those

35:33

things it doesn't just go away. And

35:36

I know, for me, I've always felt very

35:39

that that was just maybe me in a box

35:41

of a person who was cheated on that

35:44

deals with jealousy. Now, but you say,

35:46

the jealousy is a very normal

35:48

thing and a very normal part of a relationship.

35:51

So why what about

35:54

so I studied jealousy. I have studied

35:56

jealousy full time for

35:59

a decade, and jealousy

36:02

is entirely typical,

36:05

entirely human, and the

36:07

person who doesn't experience jealousy

36:10

is by far the rare case. Like

36:12

by far, so jealousy

36:15

is. Let's define it first, real

36:18

quick. Jealousy is the real or

36:20

imagined fear of

36:22

an interruption of the love bond, right,

36:24

And it's important that it's real or imaginary.

36:26

It doesn't matter whether something's literally

36:29

happening or we just think something's

36:32

happening. Jealousy can pop

36:34

up anytime we think that or

36:36

feel that there could be a separation between

36:38

us and our object of desire,

36:40

who we love and we want, and that is rooted

36:43

right in our primal brain. It's

36:45

right from our very first interactions

36:47

with our primary caregiver. Right, we are helpless.

36:50

We are in a state of complete love

36:53

from the point of I am entirely

36:55

dependent on you. And

36:59

if mom or dad or whoever

37:01

is caring for us can't come in that

37:03

second, there's an interruption, and

37:05

that is a survival level problem.

37:07

Right, So baby's crying survival

37:10

level interruption problem. Baby doesn't

37:12

know whether they're going to come back. Right.

37:14

That self still exists in us,

37:17

and so when we imagine

37:20

or experience that disruption

37:22

of the love bond, we

37:25

are right back to survival brain. Jealousy

37:27

is this complicated mess, and it brings

37:30

anger and fear and sadness

37:33

and shame and grief, and

37:35

these are big, gloppy emotions

37:37

and they're all stuck together and we have

37:40

to deal with them. But we often deal with them

37:42

just like, oh, it's it's jealousy. It's just jealousy

37:45

just comes before jealousy all the time. Like just

37:47

no, not just jealousy. It's huge

37:50

and it is normal. I actually love

37:52

that idea too, because or framing

37:54

it that way, because the just jealousy

37:57

thing or like that person is just

37:59

a super jealous person. Like it's

38:01

not as simple as a personality

38:04

trait or something. What

38:06

I heard a lot, and maybe this is because of the own work

38:08

I'm doing right now, attach attachment. What

38:12

I heard a lot in that is, you know, the

38:15

fear of abandonment and just kind

38:17

of those security things

38:19

that we so strive for. It, especially

38:21

in a love relationship, because you're the most vulnerable

38:23

I think you can be in that position. And so

38:26

the panic that comes with that is that what causes

38:28

jealousy. Yeah, So most of us attempt,

38:32

whether we succeed or not, we try, we

38:34

attempt to transfer our attachment

38:37

bond to our partner later in life,

38:39

right, and so that the transfer

38:41

of that attachment bond over to our partner,

38:44

depending on how successful it is, you

38:46

know, whether we actually are able to so, because

38:48

there are those people who stay completely attached

38:51

to someone who's not their partner, or

38:53

stay really in the pockets of their parents. But

38:56

once that transfer happens, well,

38:58

now it is a survivor of all instinct

39:00

that kicks in that says I

39:03

have to have I to I have to hold

39:05

I have to close everything around this

39:07

and keep it safe. We

39:09

can hold a relationship really

39:12

gently and be in

39:14

a trusting state only when when

39:16

our nervous system is calm, when we're

39:18

able to self regulate, when we are

39:21

conscious of the triggers

39:23

that are going to pop up for us, and when

39:25

we've established through an incremental

39:28

building of trust, you know, in

39:30

order to we often place all

39:32

the focus of jealousy on what

39:34

the other person is doing. But what

39:37

if we stepped away from that and just said, what

39:40

can what do I trust that person to do?

39:43

Where am I in this relationship? Because

39:46

we often rush. It's just like this instant

39:48

thing like we're we're either dating

39:50

and it's super casual or boom, we're

39:52

in a relationship and now I'm supposed to trust you

39:54

completely, You're supposed to trust me completely. We

39:56

and we're supposedly we agree on a

39:58

set of rules. Most people never

40:01

have the conversation to establish

40:03

what the actual parameters of their relationship

40:06

agreement is and so now

40:08

you're just essentially walking a tight rope

40:11

blindfolded and hoping

40:13

it works out. I don't recommend it.

40:16

Well, that's such a good point about

40:19

establishing the rules because I know, for

40:21

me within a relationship, if we can't

40:26

I don't want to call them ground rules, but set the

40:28

boundaries around certain conversations

40:30

or certain situations. I

40:33

never can get that calm

40:35

in my nervous system that you're talking about. So no

40:37

matter what's actually happening, my body

40:40

is telling me no, no, no no, no, no no no, you're

40:42

not safe. You're not safe because we've never set

40:44

up you know what the guidelines

40:46

are, and although they may change over

40:49

time, and I think that's something I'm learning

40:51

too, is boundaries, you know, change and

40:53

they're fluid and all of these things. But like

40:56

setting the ground the foundational

40:58

conversation of this is what I want,

41:00

This is my goal, This is the conscious

41:02

part of our decision of this relationship is

41:05

so integral for me feeling safe.

41:07

Yes, absolutely, And there's

41:10

no shame in saying the word ground rules. Like when

41:12

you're talking about setting up a

41:14

relationship would be what would

41:16

be more normal than walking

41:18

into a new job and saying, okay, so what's expected

41:21

of me? You want? Who wants a job

41:23

with no job description? That would

41:25

be horrible. I've had those. They're terrible.

41:28

I And as a business owner, I always

41:30

have to define the parameters for everybody

41:33

I'm working with, right and when there aren't

41:35

clear parameters, there's no repercussion

41:38

that I can actually put in place, and there's no

41:40

way for them to know when they're succeeding either. So

41:42

it's really an unfair place to start a relationship

41:45

from. And when people are

41:47

practicing monogamy, often

41:49

they just rely on the idea that there's this cultural

41:51

norm that like, I've had a

41:53

lot of conversations that start off with me saying,

41:55

so, what's your monogamy agreement? And the

41:57

person says to me, well, you know the

42:00

rules. I'm like, well, but what

42:02

are the rules? Tell me? Just tell me more about the rules,

42:04

and they'll tell me a little bit about the rules, and

42:06

I say, so when did you talk about these? So like I

42:09

mean he knows, Like, okay,

42:12

so let's go back to ground zero and

42:14

talk our way through this. Because explicit

42:17

communication isn't just about making

42:19

rules that make you feel safe. It's actually about

42:21

being vulnerable and asking for what you

42:23

want, which is how you can get what you

42:26

want. Cannot ever feel

42:29

secure and safe if you're just trusting

42:31

that someone has read your mind and will

42:33

deliver it to you. Right,

42:36

And also, what are you actually even

42:38

trusting that? I guess you're saying, but

42:41

like to me, now that I've

42:43

gotten order, had been through bad

42:45

relationships or you know, cheating relationships

42:48

with a trust was broke, and I probably was just thinking,

42:50

oh, we know, we do think the same. Yeah,

42:52

we have the same boundaries within a relationship. Now

42:56

I'm understanding how important those

42:58

conversations are. Just

43:01

we're establishing even

43:03

just communication between the two of you

43:05

so that you know, okay, when he leaves

43:08

this house, we have said this thing,

43:10

and if that isn't how this goes,

43:12

that is a boundary violation

43:14

to our relationship, right, right,

43:16

Because that's what cheating is. People talk

43:19

about cheating as if we have some definition of it.

43:21

We don't not really we you

43:23

know, like lots of people think cheating is sex

43:25

with another part another person,

43:28

or flirting with another person. Cheating

43:30

is the breaking of any relationship

43:32

agreement. Right, So I'm

43:35

I'm ethically. Notice, so

43:38

for me to lie about

43:40

a relationship and keep it a secret,

43:42

that would be the violation, not

43:45

the connection. Right. So if we think

43:47

about that, then how about if we

43:50

reframe what relationships are all

43:52

together and just say, your relationship doesn't

43:54

just depend on the agreements. Your relationship is

43:57

the agreements. It is

43:59

them. So start by having

44:01

a relationship where we establish

44:04

and this could go for your friendships too,

44:06

establish what the ground

44:08

rules are, and with that you can establish.

44:11

So how will we to negotiate, how

44:13

will we come to a new conclusion. So in my marriage,

44:16

we re up every three years. We have a whole

44:18

month long conversation that happens every three

44:20

years where we really get into it. We talk

44:22

about finances and sex and religion and politics

44:25

and all the stuff, just to make sure that

44:27

we still both want to be in this. And

44:29

I have a friendship that I'm actually doing something

44:32

similar with, like just actually

44:34

saying, like at the outset when I was super nervous

44:36

about this friendship, I'm like, the one thing I

44:38

need is to know that you won't just

44:41

withdraw your friendship, that

44:43

you'll just tell me that

44:45

you're withdrawing, And if

44:47

you could please just give me like a half an

44:49

hour conversation where you just say why if

44:52

you could commit to that now, then I could

44:54

commit to being more vulnerable with you, and

44:57

so we carefully built trust.

45:00

I would of having, like, what an awkward thing, like I

45:02

was sitting at dinner with just a friend

45:04

and I had that conversation, and that's

45:07

the groundwork. The rules

45:09

can all be built out of those little

45:11

awkward conversations. Yeah,

45:13

so what would you say? Because I feel I

45:16

know that this is a generalization, but I

45:18

know amongst my relationships with

45:20

my girlfriends, we are very

45:22

open about this kind of stuff or insecurities

45:25

and voluntality and all of that stuff, and it seems

45:27

a little more difficult for men. So

45:30

I'm imagining that in most

45:32

relationships as conversations could be

45:34

difficult, and especially if you know, we don't

45:36

even have to put it in a men and women things say one partner's

45:39

wanting to have those conversations and the other

45:41

partner's like, we don't even talk about this, and they're uncomfortable.

45:44

What would you say? How do you approach a

45:46

situation like that? Does that mean the relationship

45:48

can't work? Or is that just one of these tough

45:51

things to navigate between two different mentalities.

45:55

I think a lot has to go into this because

45:57

first off, we need to take the whole

45:59

context in two questions. So if you've been in a relationship

46:02

for like twenty years and all of a sudden, I

46:04

want to be super vulnerable and I want to start

46:07

this process and my partner's like what

46:09

that was? We? Whoa where did

46:11

this even come from? Let's take

46:13

that into account that we tend

46:16

to have a lot of inertia in our relationships. We

46:18

just want them to kind of continue the way they've been. So

46:21

springing this on someone and saying this is how

46:23

I want our relationship to be and then

46:25

being mad if they're not immediately on

46:27

board. That's a lot versus

46:30

say at the get go, you

46:32

know you're in the first ten dates, say and you're like,

46:34

so this is where I'm headed. This is actually what I'm

46:36

looking for, And if somebody

46:38

is resistant there, yeah, that's a big

46:40

red flag for me. I would say

46:42

they don't actually want the same type of relationship.

46:45

It would be like having a different orientation, Like you

46:47

could have a relationship with two different orientations,

46:50

but is it going to satisfy everything

46:52

that you want? Think carefully about whether

46:55

it will. You can definitely

46:57

make a relationship with any person, no

47:00

matter how much disagree with them,

47:02

but you do have to think about whether you're actually

47:04

still going to be in integrity with yourself.

47:07

Wow. Yeah,

47:09

yeah, that's really good. But that's

47:11

why it's so important to do this early on, Like,

47:14

yeah, because that's where a lot I think a lot

47:16

of resentment probably comes from too. Within

47:18

relationships. Definitely, definitely.

47:20

I mean I built a whole, a whole marriage.

47:23

I was, you know, with somebody for seventeen years, and we

47:25

were married for thirteen and when I wanted

47:27

to renegotiate, there was no process in place

47:29

for a renegotiation, so it broke

47:32

us completely. But

47:34

in the partnership I'm in now, renegotiation

47:37

is built in so we and

47:39

we both know how that happens, and we

47:41

know what happens if it escalates. We

47:43

know what our next step will be like if if

47:46

if talks break down, what will

47:48

we do next? You know, if we can't resolve

47:50

it. And having that in place means that

47:52

I feel the safest I've ever felt, and I

47:56

didn't even know that was possible. In fact, at

47:58

one point I would speak pretty

48:00

loudly about the fact that I wasn't sure that security

48:03

was even a thing we should talk about in relationships,

48:05

because I had been so hurt

48:08

that I thought, screw that, there's

48:10

just no such thing as security in relationships. It's not

48:12

anymore. On No, it's

48:14

not. I now know that that's not

48:16

true, but I had to come to know it in myself,

48:19

like deep in my body that it

48:22

was going to take like a whole rewiring. And

48:24

it's taken eleven years to feel

48:27

really truly secure in

48:29

this relationship. That

48:31

is, it's a long story

48:33

arc overnight.

48:37

We said that earlier. Yeah, yeah,

48:39

that's always a good reminder for me because

48:41

I want everything right now. That's

48:45

it exactly. Well,

48:47

you have a book out. It's called Project Relationship,

48:49

The Entrepreneur's Action Plan for passionate

48:52

sustainable Love. Yeah, tell

48:54

us about the book. So I wrote the

48:56

book because, well, for two

48:58

reasons. One, a friend of

49:00

mine was going through like just bad

49:03

relationship after bad relationship, recognized

49:05

it and was asking me a lot of questions

49:07

and I had I had thoughts and answers. So I started

49:09

thinking, oh, I should collect these, and then

49:11

I realized, you have seven teenagers

49:14

they're all gonna have relationships stuff,

49:16

and I'm a little morbid. I was, so

49:19

I got this middle of the night terror

49:21

one night that I would die and I

49:23

wouldn't have like left the many instructions.

49:26

My feet hit the floor four fifteen

49:28

that morning, I ran to my keyboard and I started

49:30

typing, and all of this just sort of

49:32

came out in a month. It was just like out

49:35

because my way isn't the right

49:37

way. But I learned this stuff the hard

49:40

way. I made every mistake, I

49:42

walked down every hard road and dead

49:45

end. So I wrote it

49:47

down and I tried to simplify it. It's not

49:49

like this long, beefy memoir of like my

49:51

tales of woe. I'm sure I'll write those

49:53

at some point, but some of

49:55

them are just such a hot mess. They're hysterical.

49:58

But this is like the distill. Like

50:00

I wanted a book that even so

50:03

my kids will probably not want to turn to

50:05

this book, but theoretically

50:07

that they could just pop open and say, like, I can't

50:09

figure out what boundaries even mean, and

50:12

it's you know, twelve pages of big

50:14

type and three clear

50:17

action steps to take to make a difference.

50:20

I wanted something that you could like actually

50:22

make a change today in your

50:24

relationship. And I focused on entrepreneurial

50:26

attitudes for the reason we said at the beginning,

50:28

because I think that that's actually

50:31

the wave of the future. We are all entrepreneurial

50:34

at this point. There's there's sort of no way out

50:36

of that. Yeah,

50:38

So I wrote the book in the hopes that

50:40

we would all just have like a quick guide

50:43

and then there are deeper dives you can do. You

50:45

know, I'm working on a course right now and

50:47

I work with people one to one and it's

50:49

great. But not everybody's ready for that.

50:51

Not everybody's at that spot where they're like, Okay, I'm ready

50:53

to go all the way in. Sometimes a book is just

50:55

what you need to, like jog you

50:58

a little further, just oh yeah, a little further. Yeah,

51:01

Well, you guys can find that book. I'm going to put the link

51:03

in the description of the bio of this podcast

51:05

that people can find a book easily. Where

51:08

else can people find you if they have more questions,

51:11

if they're interested in doing more work, where can they

51:13

find you? Yeah, so you can find me at

51:15

Jolie Hamilton dot com. That's Joli

51:18

And then Hamilton's like the musical nice

51:20

and easy, and you can find my socials

51:22

there. I'm on Instagram and clubhouse

51:25

as at doctor Jolie Hamilton, so

51:27

I'm easy to find and I'm always

51:29

happy to hear from people. You know, don't feel bad about

51:32

reaching out. I like to hear

51:34

from people. So yeah, hit my DMS, no problem,

51:37

amazing. Well, I also appreciate you being here.

51:39

I'm gonna go ahead and write down a lot of this stuff

51:41

because I think that I can apply it to my own

51:43

life, and I know everyone this is just the

51:45

common denominator that I think we all

51:48

struggle with, bump up against just

51:50

relationships. So no matter what

51:53

kind of relationship it is, I think it's one

51:55

thing we all have in common with we can

51:57

constantly be learning and growing and

51:59

so I really I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us.

52:02

Thanks so much for having me, Kelly. I really appreciate

52:04

it. It's nice to meet you, and thank you guys so much

52:06

for listening