0:00

If you don't have

0:00

failures, if not tinkering

0:03

around the edges, if you don't,

0:03

if you don't explore the edges

0:06

and push the boundaries and feel

0:06

free to do challenging

0:11

paintings, interesting

0:11

paintings, if you, you know,

0:14

diverge from from your standard

0:14

repertoire, then you're gonna

0:18

have failures. And if you don't

0:18

have failures, then you're

0:21

probably not experimenting

0:21

enough for you. You're in that

0:23

little lane.

0:26

Welcome to

0:26

the BoldBrush show, where we

0:28

believe that fortune favors bold

0:28

brush. My name is Laura Arango

0:32

Baier, and I'm your host. But

0:32

those of you who are new to the

0:35

podcast, we're a podcast that

0:35

covers art marketing techniques,

0:38

and all sorts of business tips

0:38

specifically to help artists

0:41

learn to better sell their work.

0:41

We interview artists at all

0:43

stages of their careers as well

0:43

as others were in careers to the

0:47

art world in order to hear their

0:47

advice and insights. Today, we

0:51

sat down with Tim Taylor,

0:51

realist oil painter based in San

0:54

Miguel legend Bay, with a

0:54

passion for subtle narratives

0:57

and wide ranges of subject

0:57

matter. From portraits to

1:00

landscapes to figurative to

1:00

still lifes. In this episode, we

1:04

discussed his perspectives on

1:04

the realist art movement today

1:07

and art history, the importance

1:07

of creative work rather than

1:10

formulaic painting, and why it's

1:10

important to break away from

1:15

societal expectations on art,

1:15

and appreciate paintings from

1:18

both a technical and

1:18

intellectual level. He also

1:22

reminds us that it's good to

1:22

specialize in your subject

1:24

matter of choice, and also

1:24

reminds us of the value of

1:27

failure, and by pushing your own

1:27

boundaries can help you grow and

1:30

improve at your craft. Finally,

1:30

Tim invites us to check out his

1:34

workshops in San Miguel de

1:34

Allende. Welcome, Tim to the

1:38

BoldBrush show. How are you

1:38

today? Good. Thank you. All

1:43

right. Yeah, it seems like over

1:43

there. It's a very beautiful and

1:48

wonderful since you're in Mexico right.

1:53

degrees today. 50

1:53

perfect every day, like this.

2:00

That's great. Yeah, compared to where I am, which is we're in the I

2:01

think right now we're in the low

2:04

30s and snowing Yes, it is

2:04

definitely snowing, although we

2:13

get some warm fronts, but so

2:13

everything just turns to ice and

2:17

slush. But yes, it is definitely

2:17

still snowing. I will probably

2:21

snow until mid May. We'll see.

2:25

You Farber north.

2:26

Yeah, very

2:26

far. Far enough where we don't

2:29

get sunlight in the winter and

2:29

we only get sun.

2:34

Obviously stopped

2:34

coming in August. Like four

2:37

hours of darkness.

2:38

Yeah. It's

2:38

amazing though. It feels

2:42

illegal. Yeah. Um, but you know,

2:42

before we dive into more of, you

2:52

know where we live? Do you mind

2:52

telling us a bit about who you

2:55

are and what you do?

2:57

I'm strictly an oil

2:57

painter. I used to do sculpture.

3:02

Mr. Painter, last three years or

3:02

so? Realistic paint all sorts of

3:09

things. Fill life figures,

3:09

animals, landscapes, portraits,

3:18

kind of dress galleries crazy

3:18

sometimes that you're not

3:21

specifically when playing but

3:21

most of that range that freedom

3:26

choice.

3:28

Yeah, I

3:28

agree. I mean, for example,

3:31

Leonardo da Vinci and his

3:31

treaties on painting he wrote

3:33

about how it was important to be

3:33

able to paint different things,

3:37

and not just stick to only one

3:37

thing, even made fun of

3:41

Botticelli for, for not liking

3:41

to paint landscapes, which is?

3:47

Yeah, um, but yeah, I agree. I

3:47

think it's nice to have an

3:51

understanding of everything

3:51

instead of just, I mean, there's

3:54

obviously nothing wrong with

3:54

specializing. But if you find

3:58

something interesting and

3:58

everything, then why not? You

4:00

know, there's always something

4:00

beautiful to capture.

4:04

I think it keeps you

4:04

fresh, too. I think, if I were

4:07

to paint portraits all day long,

4:07

I think it'd be really

4:11

exasperated and think you can

4:11

volunteer to read if you're not

4:15

careful. I started doing a

4:15

little series one time recently.

4:19

And it's comfortable, but I can

4:19

see after 10 or 12 fell into a

4:25

routine which might allow it to

4:25

be mechanical.

4:30

I agree.

4:30

Yes, it is very easy to fall

4:33

into a formula and just let that

4:33

guide you instead of the other

4:37

way around. Right. Which can, it

4:37

could be a good thing and I I

4:42

understand why galleries love that because they know what to expect. But I think for artists

4:44

who are more free spirited

4:48

conceal very confining.

4:51

Yeah. It's just worth

4:51

fighting for an occupation to

4:55

have this sort of range of

4:55

choices. That's a that's one of

4:59

the things So a lot of

4:59

commissioners have a specific

5:03

assignment. And then the whole

5:03

commission here, squelched by

5:08

that overwhelming burden that,

5:08

you know, we have to let them

5:12

like to do.

5:14

Yes, yeah.

5:14

And then hopefully they do

5:19

anyway, you know, because it's a

5:19

bit of a risk.

5:23

Yeah. It's never been a problem for me a couple of times, I've had to make

5:25

adjustments, but it's amazing.

5:28

The, especially if you have

5:28

communication beforehand, very

5:32

specific about what they want,

5:32

what they expect, and just use

5:36

the verbal communication anytime

5:36

this is the remedy for the

5:41

troubles later.

5:43

Yeah, yeah.

5:43

And sometimes even throughout,

5:45

you know, Vicen, like, progress

5:45

pictures, although I know some

5:49

people don't do that. And I get

5:49

it, because normally, the artist

5:55

knows exactly what's wrong. And

5:55

then the person who's seeing it

5:59

isn't really seeing it the same

5:59

way. So they might misunderstand

6:02

it.

6:04

I'll switch to the

6:04

input. Just premature. To call

6:08

that part of the painting is the

6:08

ugly teenage ganglion. You don't

6:14

want to show that to

6:14

people? No,

6:14

no, I feel like that's one of

6:18

the worst parts of the you know,

6:18

the process of creating an image

6:22

is when it reaches that awkward

6:22

point. And you're wondering, Am

6:27

I in the right career? Is this

6:27

always? Yeah. Oh, it's so

6:34

painful. Yeah,

6:36

let's have fun and

6:36

just find the middle.

6:40

Oh, yeah.

6:40

It's, uh, it really hurts the, I

6:44

guess the ego in a way, you

6:44

know? Because it's like a put I

6:46

know how to paint. Why does this

6:46

look terrible?

6:50

Oh, man. And I think

6:50

that's good artistically. If

6:53

you're challenging and you're

6:53

doing new things, and you still

6:56

have a bit of a challenge. Each

6:56

subject matter that provokes you

7:00

to try and try new things. If

7:00

it's just really falling into

7:06

that rut to the smoker?

7:07

You Yeah,

7:07

yeah. Because it takes that

7:09

problem solving into account and

7:09

then you're forced to come up

7:14

with solutions. You know, it's

7:14

like, like a mathematician.

7:18

Getting a new equation each time

7:18

with maybe something added on

7:21

top. And eventually you get

7:21

calculus.

7:25

Exactly. I wish it

7:25

was better for me. Yeah, same

7:28

here.

7:30

Yeah, it was

7:30

my least favorite subject. Um, I

7:33

love algebra. Not so much

7:33

calculus too much. Yeah. Um, so

7:40

I'm curious to know, when was

7:40

that moment for you where you

7:44

said, I want to be an artist,

7:44

this is my path, and I will

7:48

pursue it.

7:50

I was about five. I

7:50

think every child and about five

7:55

was to be an artist. And some of

7:55

us just hang on to that idea.

8:00

And it just, it just felt like

8:00

the thing I wanted to be I

8:04

suppose other people become

8:04

attorneys and doctors the same

8:07

way? I don't know. But for me,

8:07

was very young. Yeah. It was

8:12

never really a choice. That's

8:14

very willful

8:14

choice as a child, then, you

8:18

know, that's great.

8:21

I got distracted. I

8:21

wanted to be a professional

8:24

baseball player for a while, but

8:24

didn't work out for me. Ah,

8:30

well, ah,

8:30

you know, sometimes the things

8:35

don't work out for a reason. Or

8:35

at least I like to think that,

8:39

you know, we're guided to the

8:39

things we're meant to do.

8:45

Hey, we get that we

8:45

have a longer career than

8:51

baseball players.

8:53

This is

8:53

true. We paint until we die.

8:58

Yeah, I'd never

8:58

retire by winter. Because you

9:01

get faster, you get better your

9:01

prices go up and have all the

9:04

reasons in the world keep painting.

9:06

Yeah, and

9:06

you know, it's nice to have a

9:08

purpose in the morning to wake

9:08

up to you know, I feel like

9:11

people who retire it's like, now

9:11

what, right, that's when they

9:14

pick up their hobbies. And

9:14

that's when they pick up

9:16

painting again, actually, in a

9:16

lot of cases. So might as well.

9:22

Yeah.

9:24

That a lot of students do that.

9:28

Yeah,

9:28

that's, you know, it's very,

9:30

I've met a lot of people, at

9:30

least the first two that I went

9:33

to who were retired and they

9:33

decided, oh, my gosh, you know,

9:36

I always wanted to paint and now

9:36

I'm doing it and I think that's

9:40

very brave, to finally do it.

9:40

And you know, like you just

9:43

said, it's something you don't

9:43

retire from anyway. It's like

9:46

the Gosh, it's a it's something

9:46

you do, and it fulfills you. I

9:51

think that's the most important

9:51

thing, the fulfilling aspect. It

9:55

really is like a part of the

9:55

human condition to where we seek

10:00

To create something that gives

10:00

us meaning, you no

10:05

reason to be. But

10:05

that is kind of sad. I've seen a

10:08

lot of doctors and dentists and

10:08

lawyers come to me upon

10:12

retirement saying, I always want

10:12

to be an artist. My parents told

10:15

me that was a stupid choice. So

10:15

I had to go to law school. And

10:20

it's the whole life doing something they really didn't want to do. Wasn't Harley is a

10:21

good example of that. He just

10:25

just a totally free said, I'm

10:25

done with being a lawyer. And

10:29

being artists. Way.

10:33

Wow. That's brave.

10:36

Yeah. And he did

10:36

really well. Yeah.

10:39

Well, there you go. That's the other part. You know, it's like, I know a

10:40

lot of people poopoo being an

10:45

artist is like this. I guess

10:45

selfish, poverty stricken

10:51

endeavor. When it doesn't have

10:51

to be right. There are tons of

10:54

ways to make it work, especially

10:54

today, you know, with the

10:56

Internet. And, you know, the

10:56

networking has become a lot

11:01

easier. There's less gatekeeping

11:01

keeping from galleries. So it's

11:05

a it's definitely a nicer

11:05

environment to be an artist

11:08

today than maybe even like 1020

11:08

years ago.

11:13

I think I've noticed

11:13

with the advent of the internet,

11:16

you start scrolling looking for

11:16

art online. There's a lot of

11:20

good artists out there. It's

11:20

kind of overwhelming how many

11:22

real good artists are out there.

11:22

And back in the old days, you

11:27

just stumbled into Museum and

11:27

then you can kind of forget

11:29

about now you start Googling by

11:29

1000 Great peers. Yeah,

11:34

overwhelming.

11:35

It is. Yeah.

11:35

And some people might even say

11:38

it's daunting, you know, they

11:38

might get very scared. It's

11:44

like, oh, no, all this

11:44

competition. When in reality,

11:48

you know, I don't necessarily

11:48

see it as competition. I see it

11:51

as, I mean, there's someone for

11:51

everyone. Um, and, again, what

11:56

matters is, you know, what, what

11:56

it does for you, as well, you

12:00

know, if it's something you

12:00

really really love, and you

12:03

enjoy, then who cares if there's

12:03

like another 1000 people?

12:09

Like, I'll say, Just

12:09

Just be yourself. Everyone else

12:12

has taken.

12:15

Yes. Good

12:15

old Oscar. He's great. Um, but

12:19

yeah, you know, I, that makes me

12:19

wonder, do you personally like

12:24

to cover certain narratives or

12:24

stories with your work? Or do

12:29

leave that open?

12:32

Well, what I like to

12:32

do with figures, who create an

12:41

image that is provocative isn't

12:41

quite crystal clear as to what

12:45

it means. And I don't like I

12:45

frankly don't like those

12:49

allegories, or they clutter the

12:49

painting with a lot of symbolism

12:54

is accused of contradictions.

12:54

Might are a little more subtle

12:57

than that, I hope. But I like

12:57

leave people wondering like

13:03

blind justice is one of those

13:03

that was it was unclear,

13:08

especially with the title going

13:08

justice is confusing. Another

13:11

one that was happy homemaker

13:11

that was kind of unclear,

13:17

provocative and hard to look

13:17

away from. So I like to kind of

13:22

prestigious and that people try

13:22

to figure it out, was a painting

13:26

I did with a tricycle, and

13:26

nighttime. And the story was

13:32

uncleared but I had so many

13:32

people. It's a painting of a

13:36

bicycle. This mother does get

13:36

the bicycle at nighttime. And

13:39

I've had people walk up to me

13:39

and say, Tim, people like the

13:42

pain, but the missing child

13:42

really said that. What miss each

13:47

other? Yeah, it's all. It's all

13:47

happening in your head and I'm

13:51

on my phone.

13:54

That's really funny, because why would they assume a child is missing?

13:56

I mean, if I saw bicycle alone,

13:59

I would assume the kids at home

13:59

sleeping and he just slipped his

14:02

bike out.

14:04

Yeah, exactly. Kind

14:04

of like a Rorschach test.

14:09

Yeah, it

14:09

definitely gives you an insight

14:12

into someone's state of mind, I

14:12

guess, because they're making

14:16

all of these assumptions based

14:16

on very subtle imagery and

14:20

subtle cues. And it's telling

14:20

them a different story. Which is

14:24

so cool. I like that. Yeah.

14:29

It was a story. I don't know if it's true and Cezanne, I think he would like

14:31

to one of his shows. And this

14:35

woman saw a painting of a woman

14:35

and man and she was half

14:39

dressed. This woman was aghast.

14:39

She said, look at that moment.

14:42

She said, That's it, man. And he

14:42

said she's actually dressing.

14:47

They're going to their daughter's graduation getting married for 30 years. Just goes

14:49

to show you that eagle has the

14:52

eye of the beholder. Yeah.

14:55

Oh my gosh.

14:55

Well, that's great. I mean, it's

14:59

not Yeah, Yeah, that's yeah,

14:59

that's fascinating. And I'd like

15:05

that it's almost like, you know,

15:05

this this, like satirical sort

15:11

of way of seeing life where it's

15:11

it kind of reminds me of

15:15

Candide, you know, where the

15:15

story really, it's very much

15:18

like he takes things at surface

15:18

level versus, you know, seeing

15:22

things at the more subtle level.

15:22

And it's very funny. Yeah. Yeah.

15:30

Yeah. Yes, satire is, it can be

15:30

very mentally motivating and

15:39

inspiring. I think.

15:43

When you play with

15:43

those things are sticking

15:45

earlier with allowing

15:45

interpretation to your pace,

15:50

it's actually kind of

15:50

challenging that you only give

15:53

enough information to provoke

15:53

people, but not give them enough

15:57

that makes a concrete

15:57

impression, to allow them that

16:00

freedom of understanding, which

16:00

is kind of a challenge. It's not

16:05

it's not a technical challenge.

16:05

It's more of a mental challenge.

16:09

actually anticipate the work?

16:12

Yeah, yeah.

16:12

It's very, it's very delicate,

16:17

sort of way of approaching a

16:17

theme or story. Because

16:23

normally, you know, with

16:23

narrative painting, the story is

16:26

very overt. There are, you know,

16:26

there's an obvious action that's

16:29

happening, and there's an

16:29

obvious expression on the

16:33

person's face. That is, you

16:33

know, maybe they're sad, maybe

16:37

they're happy, maybe they're

16:37

angry. But definitely, with the

16:40

symbolic sort of subtle side.

16:40

It's very delicate, because

16:47

you're dropping all these tiny

16:47

little red herrings in there.

16:51

That's exactly I do that on purpose.

16:57

Oh, really?

16:57

Yes. They love hearing Oh, I

17:10

love Yes, Sam. Oh, man, by the

17:10

way, I was curious to know

17:19

because oftentimes, you know,

17:19

you meet an artist and you

17:24

they're already a full fledged

17:24

artists, right. They've already

17:26

been doing this for like you. So

17:26

now I'm really curious to know,

17:30

when did you become a full time

17:30

artists like, When was the

17:35

moment when you were making a

17:35

living and you were like, Okay,

17:38

I'm stable, I can keep going.

17:42

Well, I started out

17:42

when I was 18, or 19. I was in

17:47

college one year. And then I

17:47

started believe what my I got

17:52

married, started doing what my

17:52

family had done, which was be an

17:55

in construction started building

17:55

houses, and offices and things

17:59

like that trade, so that if I

17:59

ever had to go back, and if the

18:06

market collapsed or something, I

18:06

had to go back to a real job, I

18:10

always had that steel in my back

18:10

pocket. And I was 24. So I

18:15

worked for an oil refinery for a

18:15

while, which is a really good

18:18

job as an operating engineer.

18:18

Really crushed local job, but

18:24

when I had the pain at night for

18:24

three hours at night, and just

18:29

keep my hand in the game, a turn

18:29

on the bad days 29 or so I was

18:34

able to go full time with a few

18:34

little moments where I had to go

18:40

back and do other real jobs but

18:40

only for a short while. Actually

18:45

had a funny story of a set. I

18:45

was working on a horrible job.

18:49

It was in Oregon drizzly rainy,

18:49

and we had a painting big

18:55

paintings and not to sell

18:55

because I was always always

18:57

producing art. So I had this big

18:57

painting that was about to sell.

19:01

And it was before the age of

19:01

cellphones and the rain, pretty

19:06

rebar down and trenches and

19:06

muddy and working on the

19:10

semicircle people. awful job

19:10

anyway, we go into take a break,

19:15

took a break and we took our

19:15

breaks. I've run around the

19:18

corner to a payphone call my

19:18

wife and she said they bought it

19:22

I checked the mail. Great. Tell

19:22

that to my supervisor. I said I

19:27

didn't speak to you. And I said

19:27

I quit. They said should right

19:32

now. Yes. Yep right now.

19:41

Wow, that's

19:41

very brave.

19:48

What I needed back in

19:48

the old days is more of a

19:52

backlog of art. In those days. I

19:52

just have three or four

19:55

paintings around maybe five or

19:55

six. But as it went on, I would

19:58

have at one time I had Seven

19:58

galleries in Park City and

20:02

Sanford, Scottsdale, Jackson,

20:02

New York. And we run. Companies

20:11

in Northwest anyway. And so

20:11

Valerie said to disburse

20:16

paintings that have fit for

20:16

paintings and every hour, what

20:19

do you get to that point? It's

20:19

pretty comfortable because

20:21

checks are rolling. But in the

20:21

early days, I'm gonna had a

20:25

dozen painters in the world. And

20:25

that's not enough to really give

20:29

you that comfort

20:30

zone. Yeah,

20:30

yeah, it's really important to

20:33

build up that production if

20:33

you're gonna work with so many

20:35

galleries at the same time.

20:35

Which is another delicate side

20:40

of the balance, I would say.

20:40

That's awesome. No. Um, so what

20:48

are some of the challenges that

20:48

you've encountered as an artist

20:52

creatively, and also

20:52

financially?

20:58

Well, I had an

20:58

unusual upbringing, because

21:03

first thing I ever did was a

21:03

commission. So the lady to pay

21:07

for the painting, but the art

21:07

supplies, which you think about

21:10

is extremely courageous and

21:10

sweet, that I didn't have to

21:14

pay, I didn't have any pay. So

21:14

who paints and brushes her

21:19

budget for a good first payment

21:19

as a commission, and then I just

21:25

used up the rest of paint

21:25

continue to do another page. But

21:27

I was, I was thinking, in

21:27

retrospect, that was really nice

21:31

to her and really courageous,

21:31

but the painting was still

21:34

painting them unhappy with it's

21:34

a sunset of a specific place in

21:37

Arizona. And it held up through

21:37

the years, but she was very

21:42

courageous to have done that. So

21:42

I guess my point to an answer to

21:46

your question is, I started out

21:46

suddenly, in kind of a

21:50

commercial place, and I was in a

21:50

gallery when I was 17. I was in

21:56

trouble science gallery last

21:56

night to you. And so I started

22:00

out in Scottsdale, principally,

22:00

and big commercial was always

22:06

part of an eel, not an anti

22:06

alias. But in Legion,

22:10

universities, they teach the

22:10

students and being commercial,

22:13

there's bad ad, which is total

22:13

crap. Stupid. If you're not

22:18

paying your PT, what's in your

22:18

soul, and you have to flip

22:21

burgers way of living? And

22:21

they're not paying enough. So I

22:25

think the local commercials, okay.

22:29

Yeah, yeah.

22:29

I mean, that's, uh, I guess

22:33

that's the hard part, you know,

22:33

at the beginning, where you do

22:35

have to maybe take some

22:35

commissions. And I mean, I've

22:38

met a lot of painters who start

22:38

out doing pet portraits, for

22:41

example, like, they'll just take

22:41

a mission, so people's pets, and

22:45

off it is. At least it's a it's

22:45

a nice sort of painted dog than

22:50

it is to force yourself to paint

22:50

a person because it can be so

22:54

yeah.

22:56

I can talk to my

22:56

students about that. And I said,

22:59

here's the thing. Here's the

22:59

reason portraits is so hard is

23:01

because every human being is

23:01

extremely analytical of other

23:06

human beings. I said, you can

23:06

look at somebody or across a

23:09

cafe from 35 feet away. And you

23:09

can tell if they're looking at

23:13

you, if they're looking behind

23:13

you. They're looking at the 1000

23:17

mile stare, you can you can

23:17

perceive all that more than half

23:20

a second. And so we're extremely

23:20

judgmental about other human

23:25

faces. Yeah, yeah. It's

23:28

a it's a

23:28

natural human tendency, I guess,

23:32

since the face is so

23:32

recognizable. I mean, if the if

23:35

I mean, I know it's probably

23:35

happened to you, especially to

23:37

you when you'd like, check your

23:37

student's work. Or you can tell

23:42

that one of the eyes is slightly

23:42

floating half a millimeter too

23:45

far.

23:46

Do you see it?

23:46

Really? Is that small, too?

23:50

Little that makes it off? Yeah.

23:55

It's insane. It throws it off. And it's like the anatomy is completely wrong.

23:57

This AI is physically impossible

24:00

right now, please fix it. So I

24:00

guess over time, you do get

24:05

better too. Yeah.

24:07

Hopefully, target had

24:07

to teach at the Royal Academy

24:10

because he made him kind of

24:10

mission like an age 40. And so

24:14

he was ordered to teach a little

24:14

bit in his letters. We have

24:18

letters back and he said, the

24:18

students there they're happy to

24:22

get the head approximately

24:22

correct.

24:28

Oh, no.

24:28

That's hilarious. Um, I mean, I

24:32

understand his frustration.

24:32

There's, there's a lot of space

24:36

between approximate and then

24:36

actually accurate. You know,

24:40

it's like the precise versus

24:40

accurate type of dilemma where,

24:45

you know, precise isn't always accurate.

24:49

When people, if you

24:49

look at the anatomy doesn't

24:52

really hold up, look around was

24:52

dead on every corner, but even

24:55

Sergeant's stuff, so you want to

24:55

make sure this is still doing

24:59

Stokes with Perfect example.

24:59

Really 40 hands?

25:06

Yeah, yeah,

25:06

although I, yeah, although I

25:09

will say the Bouguereau also

25:09

liked to push things a little

25:13

bit, you know, they weren't

25:13

perfectly perfectly I mean, he

25:17

didn't know his anatomy, that's

25:17

for sure. But he always pushed

25:19

that gesture to the edge, the

25:19

believable edge, I would say.

25:25

One

25:25

of the things you'll

25:25

notice is every every toe,

25:28

especially a woman that put this

25:28

painting perfectly every not

25:33

every foot was painted. The

25:33

position, there was always long

25:35

it was registered. cliched

25:35

totally. Well, don't tell us.

25:40

Not everyone has toes like that.

25:40

No,

25:43

he was

25:43

definitely idealizing them to

25:46

the you know, the Greek, Greek

25:46

sort of way of doing it. And if

25:51

you look really close to his

25:51

painting, so he was even going

25:54

as far as putting the underlying

25:54

veins on the hands. Yeah, yes.

26:02

I get my that I've

26:02

actually tried to do that.

26:04

Figure out how to get it. And I

26:04

think I know now, but that's a

26:07

lot of work. It has,

26:09

yeah, a lot

26:09

of accuracy too. Because you

26:11

don't, the vein has to be just

26:11

visible enough, but not too

26:14

visible that it like detracts

26:14

from the form of the hand

26:17

because Hands, hands are already

26:17

hard as they are. So Bouguereau

26:22

just taking it to that next

26:22

level is a little bit daunting.

26:27

It's admirable. It's a it's like

26:27

why, at the same time, why not?

26:32

You know,

26:34

actually, you know, I

26:34

spoke to your teacher, John

26:36

Angel about grace techniques

26:36

where he would, he would have to

26:40

carry a canvas, and he would do

26:40

the ink draw. And he wanted to

26:44

isolate the egg. And they would

26:44

varnish over the ink to isolate

26:47

that from the subsequent pay.

26:47

And these are not standard

26:52

procedures. We're taught not to

26:52

do that, but the virus

26:55

underneath. But it's also

26:55

interesting how well, it is held

26:58

up through the years that sort

26:58

of contradicts what we're

27:01

taught. Yeah.

27:03

So you know,

27:03

that's the you know, that's the

27:05

other really challenging side of

27:05

oil paint, where what we hear

27:09

right now, may or may not be

27:09

true 50 years ago, 50 years

27:13

later, right? We're in 50 years,

27:13

mate. Maybe the things you're

27:17

using are archival, but it's all

27:17

based on someone's suspicion,

27:22

based on maybe probably some

27:22

controlled experiment, which as

27:28

we know, you know, artists

27:28

usually work in very moist

27:31

environments, especially if

27:31

they're, you know, not making

27:35

enough money to get a real studio, they might be working in a basement or garage. And as we

27:37

know, moisture is not the best

27:42

friend of a painting in terms of

27:42

archival qualities. So I guess

27:48

we shall see. But definitely,

27:48

his work is held up really well.

27:52

There's very little cracking.

27:52

And I remember one time, when he

27:57

showed us this really cool

27:57

experiment where he, he had

28:00

taken these different white

28:00

pigments, and he made lines out

28:04

like he painted them on a just

28:04

sewed surface. And he put it in

28:09

a drawer for like 20 years, just

28:09

to see which White was the

28:13

widest. And of course, it turned

28:13

out to be titanium white. I

28:18

think he mixed it with calcium

28:18

carbonate though, to make it

28:21

even more opaque because that's

28:21

what they made us do. Yeah. And

28:26

then of course led away it was

28:26

very yellow. But you can bleach

28:31

to kind of back to the white

28:31

that it should be by putting it

28:35

in the sun. That would probably

28:35

most

28:40

people don't realize that they're afraid to put the lights on paying a penny less

28:42

than a darker darker and so they

28:46

need a certain amount of light.

28:46

They're going to be

28:51

uncomfortable viruses.

28:54

Yeah, yeah.

28:54

And then of course, you know,

28:57

maintaining that moisture level

28:57

especially if you're using like

29:00

rabbit skin glue because rabbit

29:00

skin glue really loves to crack

29:04

and change with the environment.

29:04

Which is why I personally don't

29:07

use it. Um, I mean I'm not sure

29:07

yeah, that's it's Yeah, and it's

29:17

also I mean a lot cheaper to

29:17

just get PVA size or you know,

29:22

essentially the the plastic that

29:22

helps protect

29:28

mentioned PVA size.

29:28

What I started doing on my big

29:31

canvases is we're speaking about

29:31

moisture also. You know, the

29:35

backside of your linen is the

29:35

part that we see some moisture

29:39

in reacts and moisture, disrupt

29:39

seals, so what I started doing

29:43

is I would, especially a big

29:43

canvas, I would stretch it

29:47

inversely so that the backside

29:47

is out, stretch a very tight on

29:51

the bars, and then it would put

29:51

PVA on the backside, isolate it,

29:55

then unstretched it put it back

29:55

the other way so that I never

29:58

had to contend with See

29:58

hydroscopic variations trigger T

30:04

weekly. Nice.

30:06

Yeah.

30:10

That works great.

30:11

Yeah have to

30:11

try that. Out BoldBrush

30:15

reinspire artists to inspire the

30:15

world because creating art

30:19

creates magic. And the world is

30:19

currently in desperate need of

30:23

magic. BoldBrush provides

30:23

artists with free art marketing,

30:27

creativity, and business ideas

30:27

and information. This show is an

30:31

example. We also offer written

30:31

resources, articles, and a free

30:35

monthly art contest open to all

30:35

visual artists. We believe that

30:40

fortune favors the bold brush.

30:40

And if you believe that to sign

30:44

up completely free at BoldBrush

30:44

show.com. That's B O LD

30:48

BRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush

30:48

Show is sponsored by FASO. Now

30:55

more than ever is crucial to

30:55

have a website when you're an

30:57

artist, especially if you want

30:57

to be a professional in your

31:00

career. Thankfully, with our

31:00

special link faso.com forward

31:03

slash podcast, you can make that

31:03

come true. And also get over 50%

31:07

off your first year on your

31:07

artists website. Yes, that's

31:10

basically the price of 12 lattes

31:10

in one year, which I think is a

31:14

really great deal considering

31:14

that you get sleek and beautiful

31:17

website templates that are also

31:17

mobile friendly ecommerce print

31:21

on demand in certain countries,

31:21

as well as access to our

31:24

marketing center that has our

31:24

brand new art marketing

31:26

calendar. And the art marketing

31:26

calendar is something that you

31:29

won't get with our competitor.

31:29

The our marketing calendar gives

31:32

you day by day, step by step

31:32

guides on what you should be

31:35

doing today, right now in order

31:35

to get your artwork out there

31:38

and seen by the right eyes so

31:38

that you can make more sales

31:41

this year. So if you want to

31:41

change your life and actually

31:44

meet your sales goal this year,

31:44

then start now by going to our

31:47

special link faso.com forward

31:47

slash podcast. That's s a s

31:52

o.com forward slash podcast. See

31:52

that's that's the other hard

31:56

part about our career. Right? So

31:56

figuring out the the workarounds

32:02

of these things where oftentimes

32:02

you have to go to a some forum

32:06

online to ask Hey, guys, has

32:06

anyone tried this because I'm

32:10

seeing this and I don't know how

32:10

to fix it. Or I got a dent in my

32:13

in my canvas. And everyone's

32:13

like, spray the back with water.

32:19

Kami, they're in the

32:19

middle of class. And they said,

32:21

one of my students is putting

32:21

varnish on the finished

32:24

painting. And speeding up it's

32:24

not receiving the bar. said you

32:29

have to upgrade it with your

32:29

fingers is warming up. I'm gonna

32:32

do that the heat will allow me.

32:36

Yeah. Yeah,

32:36

I've also heard I've heard a

32:41

couple of fixes for that, which

32:41

is really interesting. The one

32:44

that Michael John Angel used to

32:44

tell us was a potato. You take a

32:47

potato, you cut it in half, and

32:47

you rub it. Yeah. And then the

32:53

other one is, yeah, the starch I

32:53

guess, pull some of the oil off.

32:57

Because obviously the canvas

32:57

gets overloaded with the oil and

33:01

it just won't take anymore.

33:01

Which is why it gets like really

33:05

beady if you you know, if you

33:05

try to put varnish on top, and

33:07

then someone sent me a video

33:07

recently where they use garlic

33:11

to do that. And I was like, Oh,

33:11

I don't know if I would.

33:18

Yeah, I would use a

33:18

potential buck. Yes. Yeah.

33:21

Yeah. It's a

33:21

lot easier to wipe it off after

33:26

they are a lot more easy to

33:26

handle. It would could help

33:31

maybe in between layers. There's

33:31

like a layer that's like too

33:34

overloaded. You could just put a

33:34

little bit of garlic, maybe a

33:37

little seasoning and then

33:41

getting hungry. Yeah.

33:44

Oh, man. Um,

33:44

by the way, since we were

33:47

talking about satire and irony

33:47

earlier, in a recent interview,

33:52

you mentioned the book, The

33:52

Painted word. And I was

33:56

googling. And of course, I

33:56

thought it was such a great

33:58

book, very interesting book to

33:58

look at. And I was wondering if

34:04

you find that we're still in a

34:04

similar environment as realist

34:07

painters. So we're still faced

34:07

with these, this juggernaut of

34:13

this mysterious group of wealthy

34:13

people who decide that realism

34:18

is a no go steal. Do you feel

34:18

like we're still in that

34:20

environment?

34:22

A little bit, I

34:22

think. I think that premise is

34:24

dying slowly. It's rotting on

34:24

the vine. That was all the rage

34:28

in the 40s and the 50s. And the

34:28

60s a little bit, but people

34:33

were already starting to invade

34:33

that space with like, Andy

34:39

Warhol was starting to have

34:39

realistic representation

34:41

starting to geek out about pure

34:41

abstraction that just, he has no

34:47

clothes saying, and I think

34:47

that, for that concept to

34:51

sustain itself, it takes a lot

34:51

of energy. It takes a lot of

34:54

writers, it takes a lot of

34:54

newspaper editors, and I think

34:57

they're just kind of tired of

34:57

it. The continual drain of their

35:02

energy to try to float that

35:02

crap. And I saw maybe isolated I

35:09

don't hang around to lead those

35:09

people. But most of the people I

35:14

know like realism,

35:14

representational art, so perhaps

35:18

naive.

35:20

Yeah, you know, it's an interesting thing, because whenever, you know,

35:22

someone mentions, for example,

35:25

like Art Basel, right, which you

35:25

can find quite a bit of really

35:29

nice realism there. Everyone

35:29

just thinks it's a stupid banana

35:32

incident, which is really

35:32

depressing. And I sincerely hope

35:37

that we can grow out of that

35:37

phase because it's, I agree with

35:41

you even even in my short

35:41

lifespan, it's been a little bit

35:44

redundant, a little bit boring

35:44

to encounter such I guess, like

35:50

inauthentic, mediocre ways of

35:50

drawing attention like that. I

35:56

mean, it's obviously just a

35:56

marketing ploy. And I think

35:59

it's, frankly a little bit

35:59

disrespectful to people who

36:02

actually put their best out

36:02

there and make an effort and,

36:06

and make really good work,

36:06

whether it's realistic or not.

36:11

You can summer to

36:11

sharpen some chemicals and gotta

36:15

be declared art, but it's just

36:15

95. What else gonna go that's

36:21

untenable. It's a fiasco.

36:25

That's, I mean, I would think I was actually accidentally walking

36:27

into a museum. And I saw that.

36:30

Yeah, I think it was cool.

36:33

I said, it was like

36:33

going through his college with

36:36

some museums, his art teacher,

36:36

and they were raving over pure

36:40

abstract art and talking about

36:40

how good this minimalist thing

36:43

was, and you just increase it,

36:43

he's getting annoyed, and

36:46

finally said, okay, my dad,

36:46

stuff is crap. I know what I

36:51

grew up with. That's just

36:51

malarkey. Did you get like an

36:57

after that?

37:01

I mean, I do

37:01

think, you know, people are free

37:03

to like, what they like. And I

37:03

do think that there is it's hard

37:09

to separate yourself sometimes

37:09

from what people say you should

37:16

like. And I think that's, that's

37:16

the danger in some things where,

37:20

you know, if you allow yourself

37:20

to be guided by what other

37:22

people say is good, or supposed

37:22

to be good, then you fall into a

37:27

bit of a trap to have, oh,

37:27

everyone says, this is

37:31

beautiful. So therefore it is

37:31

right. But then you forget that,

37:35

oh, no, what if, what about my

37:35

own tastes, right? And I feel

37:37

like a lot of artists have that

37:37

within them of being able to

37:40

break away from the outer, you

37:40

know, sort of societal

37:45

expectations of things.

37:47

We grow as artists

37:47

and our perceptions get Peter

37:51

and I, for example, I get used

37:51

to like Van Gogh. But through

37:57

the years, I've come to really

37:57

like his stuff and see the

38:01

quality of it. I still have and

38:01

always will, I think a lot of

38:07

grief over that. Because I think

38:07

his compositions are horrible

38:11

and delicate. Colors are bad. I

38:11

get grief and I'm not getting

38:15

I'm getting letters. country I

38:15

go with great. Yeah,

38:23

you know, that's the other really cool thing about being in this

38:24

profession and actively, you

38:28

know, painting and attempting

38:28

new things, and also observing

38:32

paintings of the past, you can

38:32

look at it and actually decide

38:37

whether or not it's even in, in

38:37

your realm of realism, right?

38:41

Because Van Gogh's it, he tends

38:41

to be more on the impressionism

38:45

side and maybe even more on the

38:45

I want to say illustrative

38:48

because he's, he does take a lot

38:48

more. He's more, he interprets

38:53

more and isn't as see like exact

38:53

right, which is very different

38:57

from today's like, photo

38:57

realism, for example, which is

39:00

the other extreme, but you can

39:00

look at those paintings and

39:03

really pick out all the

39:03

beautiful little qualities and I

39:08

really like his brushwork here,

39:08

I really like this specific

39:12

color that he mixed in this one

39:12

section. And despite you know,

39:18

whether or not you do like the

39:18

work, you know, there is that

39:21

beautiful side of, oh, I can

39:21

appreciate this aspect of this

39:26

in a more intellectual way

39:26

without being you know, overly,

39:31

I guess, emotional of oh, this

39:31

is this is this, therefore, now,

39:35

you know, like, it really takes

39:35

away that black and white

39:38

thinking like you can be a lot

39:38

more gray in your appreciation

39:41

of the past. Although I will

39:41

agree with Suzanne right there.

39:45

I'm not also I'm also not a big

39:45

fan, I think, in trouble. Oh,

39:50

that's okay. That's okay. I

39:50

mean, we all have different

39:52

tastes, and I think of all the

39:52

Impressionists, he was not my

39:55

favorite. Definitely at the

39:55

bottom for me, I was more of a

39:58

Monet Monet girl. Hi,

40:00

Alex Jeffrey Pizarro

40:00

pacifically desirable don't get

40:03

better. If you play Monet and

40:03

simply bizarre painting together

40:08

in their 20s, their paintings

40:08

look very much alike. And then

40:12

they started deviating. But I

40:12

think those two guys are

40:15

underrated. I love their work.

40:19

It's also

40:19

like, I think the other side of

40:21

it is that Monet, he's very

40:21

famous now. I mean, his work is

40:25

very beautiful, and it has those

40:25

beautiful lilacs. And that

40:28

purple that actually in his

40:28

time, everyone hated that

40:30

purple, they thought it was

40:30

evil. I have a love and

40:33

appreciation for the purple that

40:33

he used. And now he's very

40:37

commercialized, quote, unquote.

40:37

But that doesn't take away that

40:40

it's so beautiful work.

40:43

Well, you know, he

40:43

had seven kids, eight kids, and

40:45

so he had to really produce and

40:45

make a lot of paintings. And he

40:49

was very, very commercially

40:49

minded. He was always the

40:52

president of associations. And

40:52

he got all the press, and he

40:57

worked to maintain that top of

40:57

mind impressionist, yeah,

41:02

yeah,

41:02

definitely. And I think the

41:04

other funny thing that not many

41:04

people know is that karo was

41:07

also technically an

41:07

impressionist, he was alive in

41:10

the time of the impressionists.

41:10

And his work, of course, is

41:14

absolutely my favorite of that

41:14

time period. And that was the

41:20

show, you know, you can be

41:20

within a certain time, but not

41:22

really, quote unquote, fit in

41:22

with, you know, the say, the

41:27

overarching theme of that time,

41:27

right at that time period.

41:35

Well, I asked you if

41:35

we can like the three, because

41:43

if the question isn't used to

41:43

get credit for that, yeah.

41:48

Yeah, I'm

41:48

actually I can even go as far as

41:50

to say the Turner was, at the

41:50

end of his life, it was very

41:53

abstract to, um, yeah, he

41:55

grew, he grew like,

41:55

like Frederick FINITY grew, he

41:58

got better. I think he should

41:58

grow and get better. But

42:01

Frederick Remington also became

42:01

very impressionistic, and loose

42:04

and soft, like Monet, and

42:04

Turner. Everybody tends to go

42:09

towards looser, more expressive

42:09

brushstrokes, except the real

42:15

successful crowd. Workers. He was

42:21

yeah, they

42:21

say he used to paint like crazy.

42:24

And, of course, he actually

42:24

worked for photographs, which

42:27

not a lot.

42:29

That was interesting. I know. I was.

42:32

Yeah. Take a

42:32

lot of liberties.

42:36

Yes, in essence, one

42:36

of my questions like, How could

42:38

he possibly find that he had

42:38

photographs and makes me feel?

42:43

Good. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people from the past would have

42:45

definitely used photographs as a

42:49

tool. It may have caused, you

42:49

know, the same ruckus of, oh,

42:55

no, now, portrait painters don't

42:55

have a job, which, you know, at

42:58

the beginning of any new

42:58

technology, things always

43:02

changed dramatically. So it

43:02

would have been very similar,

43:06

but I think they would have

43:06

definitely used it as a tool. I

43:08

mean, even back then they were

43:08

using pinhole cameras to help

43:11

them with the drawing like in

43:11

Caravaggio's paintings. Yeah.

43:15

Which technically is a camera.

43:15

And they used it as a they

43:19

abused it. Yeah. And,

43:19

unapologetically, so they

43:24

probably would have done the

43:24

exact same thing back then. But

43:27

definitely, I think, the early

43:27

photography, and this is my own

43:31

bias is much nicer than today's

43:31

photography.

43:36

It's almost as if

43:36

they went to art school, because

43:38

they understand composition,

43:38

especially the French

43:40

photographers. 8789 is a mix of

43:40

photographs of boats and stuff

43:45

are really well composed. And

43:45

lashed out at people, if you'd

43:50

be booked in 8889 is the crazy

43:50

thing. We're talking about

43:54

composition with an

43:54

understanding and a depth that

43:57

you almost never hear today.

43:57

Only only artists talk like that

44:02

now, but once upon a time,

44:02

writers and critics would speak

44:07

in depth about this nuanced

44:07

thing. That is not there's no

44:12

sensitivity to it anymore.

44:15

Yeah, you

44:15

know, I think, in part, there's

44:19

been an I want to say also,

44:19

because, you know, at the turn

44:22

of the century, you know, with

44:22

industrialization and all these

44:25

things coming in, and so many

44:25

new technologies rapidly, just

44:27

bam, bam, bam, coming in. I

44:27

think there was also a loss of

44:31

information, especially in terms

44:31

of realism, right? I feel like

44:34

the realist really carried the

44:34

tradition through in the 20th

44:38

century were the illustrators,

44:38

they're the ones who saved

44:42

realism from absolutely fiction.

44:42

Yeah, so I, yeah, so I think

44:49

that's in part why so much

44:49

nuance was lost because all we

44:54

had left was was illustration

44:54

and all of these things that

44:57

maybe we had before. But it's

44:57

one of those things where I like

45:02

to assume that back then they

45:02

just thought, oh, everyone knows

45:05

this. So there's no reason to

45:05

write it down. And therefore it

45:08

gets lost. So I feel like that's

45:08

partly what happened. And also,

45:13

like, for example, I remember

45:13

when I interviewed Michael John

45:15

angel, he mentioned how, in his

45:15

group of friends in Florence,

45:20

they had rediscovered the bark

45:20

plates. And that was a huge

45:23

deal, because they found that in

45:23

the market in France,

45:27

wow, I didn't know

45:27

that. Yeah. Yeah.

45:30

It's insane. I mean, it's almost like you have to dig through all of these

45:32

old things to, like, finally

45:35

find these fabled parts of the

45:35

academic process and the

45:39

painting process that had been

45:39

lost to time. And I, I am sad to

45:44

think of all the things that we

45:44

may have lost that we have to

45:46

rediscover, you know,

45:49

one thing

45:49

Impressionists also maintain and

45:52

sustain was composition, they

45:52

were really keenly aware of, and

45:57

I enjoyed the composition, and

45:57

brushstrokes. If you look at the

46:01

quality of it, see why it's

46:01

gorgeous surface? Yeah,

46:05

it vibrates. I think that's the really nice thing about the Impressionists,

46:07

they have the I think they're

46:10

really conceptualized painting

46:10

to the extent of light, and air

46:14

being this vibratory thing. And

46:14

they really wanted to capture

46:18

that. And they have the tools to

46:18

do it, too. I mean, with the

46:21

invention of the paint tube,

46:21

they were like, Oh, now I'd have

46:24

to worry about mixing our colors

46:24

from zero, just by good one.

46:31

Yeah, I can understand why

46:31

painters before only kept for

46:34

four or five pigments. And they're like, Yeah, this is enough. This is, this is a lot.

46:39

Like has any tea.

46:39

Yeah,

46:42

it's

46:42

definitely more convenient, and

46:44

makes the job a lot easier. By

46:44

the way, yeah. Um, do you happen

46:52

to have any advice for someone

46:52

who wants to become a full time

46:56

artist?

46:57

I think that

46:57

everybody's financial situation

47:01

is different. But you know, if

47:01

you're aesthetically ready to go

47:06

forth, but I tell my students is

47:06

that when you're getting

47:09

accepted into shows, and you're

47:09

starting to win awards, and

47:14

galleries are starting to like

47:14

your work, then it's probably

47:17

time to consider switching over.

47:17

But also you need the other

47:21

thing, but you need like 10 or

47:21

12, paintings finished and ready

47:24

to go. Nuts. You just take that

47:24

criteria. That takes a while to

47:28

get to that point.

47:30

Yeah, that's

47:30

very true. Um, wow, that's

47:34

really great advice. Because,

47:34

you know, oftentimes, people,

47:39

they might have a different idea

47:39

of the actual logistics. So it's

47:43

good to have that advice of Oh,

47:43

yeah. Have work ready have at

47:46

least 12 paintings, you know,

47:46

that's a very good goal to have,

47:49

because then it's easier to work

47:49

from there. Yes. And especially

47:53

if you have like a day job to to

47:53

help,

47:57

you know, galleries, five or six paintings right away. So you have to have that.

47:59

Right. Yeah.

48:04

Unless you have a solo show. You need 20. Yes. Oh, that's a lot of work.

48:07

Which, by the way, you're part

48:12

of a lot of associations. You're

48:12

part of like the OPA salmagundi.

48:16

Club International guild of

48:16

realism. How long has it been

48:21

for you to join these

48:21

organizations in terms of

48:23

networking? And do you think it

48:23

is worth it?

48:27

I think it's worth

48:27

it. I think it's really fun. I

48:31

had the best time I got accepted

48:31

in salability club. And at the

48:36

same time, I was in OPA forever.

48:36

And Opa. Since its inception, I

48:42

guess. The Opa. Remember, I

48:42

think signature members OPA

48:48

we're having a shell at some

48:48

Guindy club. So my two reasons

48:51

to attend. And because I was a

48:51

member of the club, I got to go

48:55

downstairs into the members only

48:55

area. But it's really cool. As

49:01

some of the good news is that at

49:01

71, I think was founded. But you

49:05

go down there, and they have

49:05

pool tables, and Thomas Moran

49:09

and Albert Bierstadt played on.

49:09

I mean, that's cool. You get to

49:12

play pool on the same tables.

49:12

Which is neat.

49:18

Yes, very rich history.

49:21

Oh my god, she felt

49:21

honored as part of the whole

49:25

lineage. Yes, yeah. The other

49:25

organizations that are good I

49:32

had certain things I wanted to

49:32

do like the America they have a

49:37

national contest. early on was

49:37

one of my goals to to win that

49:41

contest. And that one for

49:41

example, you can only win one

49:45

time. So after I did that, I

49:45

dropped out and when I moved to

49:48

Mexico, I dropped out a lot of

49:48

things too. So a lot of those

49:51

that are on my website that are

49:51

former memberships. I don't I

49:56

don't think I I still can

49:56

participate but not a very good

50:00

vigorous member anymore, but

50:00

man, I just meet cool people.

50:05

And you'll be California art

50:05

club is one that's was really

50:08

fun for me because I got the

50:08

shows and meet the neatest

50:12

people and people that you

50:12

admire for a long time to show

50:16

up in person, you get to hang

50:16

out with them and go to dinner

50:19

and stuff. And it is pretty cool.

50:22

Yeah, that's the other really nice thing about being part of those

50:24

groups, especially as an artist,

50:27

because you know, it's such a

50:27

solitary career, um, that it

50:30

definitely gives you that

50:30

opportunity to connect with

50:33

other artists and, and make more

50:33

connections and, you know, maybe

50:37

come across new ways of doing

50:37

things or even come across new

50:42

ideas and new inspiration. So

50:42

it's, yeah, that definitely

50:46

sounds like it was worth it.

50:48

And you get to

50:48

converse in such a high level of

50:51

you talking to other

50:51

professional artists, it's just

50:53

cool. We were watching OPA OPA

50:53

was having a national show your

50:59

mountain one time, and we would

50:59

see lunch, right adjacent to a

51:04

gallery. And we're all you know,

51:04

opa members, mostly

51:09

professional. And so we went as

51:09

Russia 15, or listener

51:13

discovery, looking around.

51:13

Several subpoenas on moments

51:17

pays are particularly good in

51:17

your own environment. And the

51:20

galley person came up and he

51:20

didn't know who we were. She

51:24

said, she teaches workshops. And

51:24

I said, so the way

51:30

Oh, that's

51:30

so funny, that there's you know,

51:33

it's nice to have that, that

51:33

side of being able to appreciate

51:38

other paintings as well, where

51:38

you get to look at them and, and

51:41

ask the person to like, oh, my

51:41

gosh, how did you do this? Or,

51:45

you know, what? What pigments

51:45

did you mix to get bad? Or what

51:50

brushes did you use to get that

51:50

effect? Because it can be so

51:53

specific sometimes.

51:56

And what's nice is

51:56

we'll get to the truck

51:59

professional artists together.

51:59

Will will agree on this one

52:04

artists this one woman's not

52:04

gonna remember me now, but she

52:06

was really intriguing, delicate

52:06

work. And we all we all agree.

52:12

And that's that's another thing

52:12

we should contest. The this the

52:16

portrait Society of America has

52:16

seven or eight judges like

52:20

Senate. And they always choose

52:20

really good art. Because they

52:24

have seven opinions. Not one.

52:24

Yeah. Advocate. Every club has

52:28

to have seven judges.

52:32

Oh, yeah, I

52:32

guess because it might be really

52:35

hard. And I think I did hear

52:35

that the the judges, they tend

52:38

to be artists themselves. So of

52:38

course they know what's going

52:41

on. And I think blind judging is

52:41

also really good to where the

52:46

judges can't talk to each other.

52:46

And they, they only say Okay, I

52:50

just this one's great this like

52:50

this is my my, basically my

52:55

opinion on these. And that's it.

52:55

And there's no talking to each

52:58

other because it's so easy to

52:58

get influenced. Yeah, yep.

53:01

Just make it much too

53:01

all by themselves. For some guy

53:05

fingers.

53:08

Yeah, yeah.

53:08

Um, and by the way, do you have

53:11

any advice for someone who maybe

53:11

wants to find their own voice as

53:16

an artist? Well,

53:18

it's back to that

53:18

Oscar Wilde quote, I think you

53:20

just want to be treated

53:20

yourself. Because if you get

53:23

really good at whatever, I used

53:23

to pay clouds from others, at

53:29

9020. And below, it was a

53:29

Western artist. And so that kind

53:33

of like pink clouds. And he

53:33

said, well do that pink clouds

53:36

be the best cloud painter there

53:36

was a person I found out about

53:39

what's in hurry. So I shut that

53:39

down. But that's good. Because

53:43

if you'd like to pick horses paint horse, if you'd like to pay, still, as Pete still is and

53:45

just become the best at it.

53:49

That's that's the best advice is

53:49

to own own that realm. That's,

53:55

that's the way to succeed

53:55

commercially. You still can have

53:58

range within still actually do

53:58

all sorts of landscapes, lots of

54:02

freedom of choice.

54:04

Yeah, yeah.

54:04

I love that. Because that also

54:07

opens up the playing field, you

54:07

know, because some people I

54:10

think they get so afraid of, oh,

54:10

no, but what if I picked the

54:13

wrong thing? Right? What if I

54:13

pick something no one cares

54:16

about, it's like, who cares?

54:16

They'll still find you. There

54:19

are people out there who do

54:19

care. And I mean, I'm definitely

54:24

one of those people who's like a

54:24

little bit more guarded about,

54:27

like, what I like to paint just

54:27

because I'm also very unsure.

54:31

But I think that's very normal,

54:31

especially in the early days.

54:33

It's like, oh, this is the

54:33

exploration and experimentation

54:36

phase. So it can be tough.

54:40

I guarantee you that

54:40

if you go into the homes of

54:42

artists in our studios, you

54:42

know, on a friendly basis. All

54:47

artists have lots of lots of

54:47

paintings that were done eight

54:50

years ago, 10 years ago, and

54:50

they're just holding on to that.

54:53

Never found an audience but they

54:53

could find one later, especially

54:56

after your deceased your artist

54:56

becomes a member is a resource

55:01

than someone to come along and

55:01

buy those who pay good money for

55:04

them. But it's just just an

55:04

indication that if you're a

55:07

professional, you're going to

55:07

have paintings in the corner

55:10

somewhere going to pay into the

55:10

closet. That's a sign of

55:13

professional. I don't know, an

55:13

exception to that.

55:17

That's a

55:17

that's comforting. Reality.

55:23

Yeah, you know, I've heard other

55:23

teachers call it the burn pile,

55:27

though. Instead of oh,

55:32

I had, I had a really

55:32

big beautiful friend. He's like,

55:37

42 by 78. And gorgeous 20

55:37

sticker frame. And I had big

55:43

fancy stretcher bars and had

55:43

this painted on there and Grand

55:45

Canyon. And I knew the frame was

55:45

valuable. And I knew that

55:50

Marsman value book, and so I

55:50

just get exasperated, and it

55:53

wasn't that bad of a pain. But I

55:53

wasn't selling and I got tired

55:57

of being taken up to French or

55:57

unrolled it in a Burton. And

56:01

then a square two days later,

56:01

the gallery called Tim, do you

56:03

have any more of those big Grand

56:03

Canyon? 80s? So that's when I

56:09

stopped growing pains.

56:11

Oh, no. Yeah. Well, you hear that folks?

56:17

Don't burn your paintings. No.

56:25

Yeah, yes. Keep them in a

56:25

corner, as we said, or closet.

56:30

Wow, that's very painful. It's a

56:30

harsh lesson. But yeah, it's

56:34

good to know that, you know? I'm

56:34

sorry, you had to relive that.

56:42

Yeah, but it's very comforting

56:42

to know that, you know, not

56:45

every painting has to be a

56:45

masterpiece, you know, or not

56:48

every painting has to sell, or

56:48

even go anywhere, for any

56:52

reason. I mean, there's this,

56:52

this side that I think is really

56:54

hard for a lot of people to dive

56:54

back into, especially after

56:57

being educated as an artist,

56:57

which is exploring painting for

57:01

what it is, you know, an

57:01

exploration, something that

57:05

comes from play and not from a

57:05

paycheck. Eventually, that's

57:09

another paycheck. But

57:11

yeah, totally crap,

57:11

if you don't have failures, if

57:16

not tinkering around the edges,

57:16

if you don't, if you don't

57:19

explore the edges and push the

57:19

boundaries, and feel free to do

57:24

challenging payments, interest

57:24

opinions, if you you know,

57:28

diverge from from your standard

57:28

repertoire, then you're gonna

57:32

have failures. And if you don't

57:32

have failures, and you're

57:35

probably not experimenting

57:35

enough, and you're, you're in a

57:37

little lane.

57:40

Yeah, yeah,

57:40

and that's the other interesting

57:44

thing too of like, seeing

57:44

painting as almost like a fun

57:50

puzzle or a challenge where it's

57:50

okay to bite off more than you

57:54

can chew sometimes because

57:54

you'll learn from it right if

57:58

you if you see it without the

57:58

expectation of something that

58:03

outside right some sort of

58:03

outside pressure whether that's

58:06

a gallery whether that's a

58:06

commission whether you know if

58:08

it's if it's just you and this

58:08

canvas, and whatever the hell

58:12

you want to put on it. I think

58:12

that's where the magic can

58:15

really happen. Just letting go.

58:19

Thanks. A lot of

58:19

focus and discipline and

58:22

confidence in yourself know that

58:22

penny that Jerome did have the

58:26

gladiators in the name of it

58:26

now. It is a very, it is it's

58:31

amazing. 1500 faces in there.

58:31

Can you imagine get up in the

58:34

morning say well, Patri world

58:34

faces today. So much work. How

58:41

did that? Oh,

58:43

man. See, I

58:43

would love to resurrect him and

58:45

ask because his paintings are

58:45

amazing.

58:50

I saw a couple in a

58:50

little obscure art, art museum

58:55

and Shawnee, Oklahoma. And they

58:55

had to unfinished Jerome's, and

58:59

it was very educational because

58:59

it was complex. Middle East

59:03

three screens is that he drew

59:03

every line, it was part of a

59:07

pencil, then he quit back cover

59:07

with the incline, even before

59:11

the painting went on. So he was

59:11

extremely deliberate and careful

59:16

from the get go. Like, with all

59:16

this complex architecture, the

59:21

hanging, hanging carpet.

59:25

Really

59:25

impressive. Amazing. Yeah, that

59:28

doesn't surprise me that he

59:28

would be so meticulous because I

59:32

mean, I've mentioned this a

59:32

couple times on the podcast, but

59:35

90% of a great painting is good

59:35

drawing an accurate drawing, or

59:40

else yeah, there's no way around

59:40

it. And of course he's an

59:45

academic so with even more

59:45

reason, he'd be super accurate.

59:52

That was talking to California art club. I was talking to Mr. Black shoes, and

59:54

he had done a painting a long

59:58

time ago and it was it Indian

59:58

with geese in the background, I

1:00:03

had a goose over shoulder. And I

1:00:03

saw these wonderfully composed

1:00:07

Garrett illustrated with yours.

1:00:07

And I said, Did you draw

1:00:13

different geese and move them

1:00:13

around pieces of paper and said,

1:00:16

yep. That's, that's reassuring

1:00:16

to know that they're doing it

1:00:22

precisely the way you and I

1:00:22

would do it. Yeah.

1:00:26

Yeah. And

1:00:26

Michael John Angell, also he's,

1:00:28

he would take like, his little

1:00:28

drawings of like to compose, he

1:00:32

would cut them out and like,

1:00:32

just move them around. Yeah,

1:00:36

wherever he wanted, especially

1:00:36

when it was like groupings of

1:00:39

people, he would say, Okay, you

1:00:39

need an odd number. You need

1:00:43

this, like, there's so many

1:00:43

little rules to composing an

1:00:46

image. And that's the other fun

1:00:46

part. Right. That's the other

1:00:49

part that I think, you know,

1:00:49

it's especially with today with

1:00:53

like, the modern approach of

1:00:53

painting, which is just you and

1:00:55

an empty canvas and no plan. I

1:00:55

think it's okay to have a plan.

1:00:59

It's like, that's like the

1:00:59

equivalent of going into your

1:01:02

kitchen and being in front of a

1:01:02

frying pan and be like, Okay, I

1:01:06

gotta cook something delicious.

1:01:06

Or if you have a recipe, then

1:01:09

you can definitely cook

1:01:09

something delicious. But if you

1:01:11

don't have a recipe might prove

1:01:11

a little bit more challenging.

1:01:19

A few. A few of my

1:01:19

paintings like the

1:01:23

deconstructionist, I did a

1:01:23

cartoon. So the Lifesize drawing

1:01:27

worked, all the nuances and

1:01:27

everything. And it is, once you

1:01:31

do that, it's really kind of

1:01:31

comforting when you start with

1:01:34

the oil part. Because you've worked out all these compositional challenges. And I

1:01:36

hate drawing dryness work. I

1:01:40

find color far more rewarding,

1:01:40

but sometimes.

1:01:47

Definitely,

1:01:47

yeah. Because I mean, the nice

1:01:50

part about the planning is that

1:01:50

you can really work through any

1:01:53

of the hiccups that might come

1:01:53

up. And also the you can plan

1:01:57

out the value study, right? So

1:01:57

you can be like, Okay, this is I

1:02:00

know what's going on here. I

1:02:00

know what's going on there. So

1:02:03

that you don't run into the

1:02:03

issue later down the line where

1:02:06

you're like, oh, no, my values

1:02:06

are too scattered. And I don't

1:02:09

have an obvious focus point. And

1:02:09

it's not working.

1:02:14

You want to make those mistakes before you're too invested in the process. You 35

1:02:16

hours drawing CC

1:02:25

thanks.

1:02:25

Exactly, yeah. And funnily

1:02:28

enough, one of my side hobbies

1:02:28

is knitting. And, yes, and even

1:02:34

in knitting, we do a swatch

1:02:34

before you start the actual

1:02:38

thing. Yes, so that you can see

1:02:38

exactly how many stitches you

1:02:43

need in order to meet the the

1:02:43

actual measurements of the final

1:02:46

thing. So usually you do swatch

1:02:46

as a test. Oh, I keep my

1:02:53

swatches, I think they're great

1:02:53

to keep. Yeah, because I mean,

1:02:57

you can unravel them and just

1:02:57

use that yarn. But I like

1:02:59

keeping the swatch. Because

1:02:59

further down the line, if I want

1:03:02

to reuse a certain stitch, I can

1:03:02

look at it and be like, Okay,

1:03:05

this is how the stitch looks.

1:03:05

And I can be sure that I liked

1:03:09

this. So I think it's kind of

1:03:09

similar with value studies where

1:03:12

you know, if you if you have

1:03:12

like a high key painting that

1:03:14

you did in the past, and maybe

1:03:14

you want to recreate something

1:03:17

similar, you already have a bit

1:03:17

of an example to work from that

1:03:20

you've done, and maybe even find

1:03:20

ways to improve it. So there's a

1:03:25

really cool way of doing it like

1:03:25

that. Yeah, do you personally

1:03:30

like to devalue studies? Actually,

1:03:31

I like those

1:03:31

especially small ones. No. No

1:03:36

bigger than this. And that

1:03:36

usually is smaller. I think you

1:03:40

need about that much just to get

1:03:40

some understanding, but I love

1:03:44

doing those and I saw a solo

1:03:44

show in Texas, and they had some

1:03:49

real color sketches he did on

1:03:49

the beach. They're great. But

1:03:55

then that brought him back and

1:03:55

he sent one to soya and he I

1:04:00

mean she wants to Zoran said

1:04:00

when the sergeant and they

1:04:02

usually do three kept one for

1:04:02

himself and one with a sergeant

1:04:06

in one zone. Wow. Pretty good

1:04:06

little group. Yeah.

1:04:12

Well jealous. I wish I had a really nice little thumbnail sketch.

1:04:17

Great error to live.

1:04:17

Yeah, yeah, I can take one two

1:04:20

there. Sweet. Yeah, the study

1:04:20

for for the sad inheritance a

1:04:26

great big, gorgeous trees. The

1:04:26

children and beach children have

1:04:33

bad legs in the process allowing

1:04:33

them to swim. I was before but

1:04:43

there was a gorgeous paintings. I like his beach paintings a lot. There's

1:04:45

one in particular of I think it

1:04:50

was a burial of some sort. Um,

1:04:50

definitely Robert is very somber

1:04:57

painting, but it's funny because

1:04:57

it's at the Ah, and it's

1:05:00

supposed to be a very happy place.

1:05:04

He was really good at

1:05:04

altering reality, if you look at

1:05:07

some of his scars, and almost

1:05:07

black or very dark and gray is

1:05:11

starting to pop the sales or

1:05:11

whatever, but it

1:05:15

just took

1:05:15

effect. Yeah, yeah. And that's

1:05:19

the other fun side about painting, you know, you can really do whatever you want on

1:05:21

the canvas you can make. Gosh,

1:05:27

you have, you really have so

1:05:27

much control over everything

1:05:29

that that's why it becomes so

1:05:29

overwhelming. And that's why

1:05:32

having a plan is

1:05:33

so nice to feel

1:05:33

comfortable. Yeah, I used to be

1:05:37

such a painful life. And people

1:05:37

say science is such a slave to

1:05:42

the subject. And I like doing

1:05:42

that I think gets some wonderful

1:05:46

tones and representation. I was

1:05:46

had a pain and a big payment and

1:05:51

went to the Charlie Rose museum.

1:05:51

And I was at the show. This lady

1:05:56

came up from behind me that I

1:05:56

studied in Minnesota, one of the

1:05:59

affiliates. And she said, Are

1:05:59

you the artist and said, Yeah,

1:06:03

she saw a question. Did you

1:06:03

paint that site safe? And I

1:06:05

said, Yes, I did. But the

1:06:05

question is the interesting

1:06:08

part, she could deduce from the

1:06:08

painting by methodology. And it

1:06:13

really is an endorsement of the

1:06:13

method, I think. But in those

1:06:20

days, I was very devoted to what

1:06:20

sergeant to say I save the

1:06:23

nation. But recently, I've

1:06:23

allowed myself to deviate things

1:06:28

like so I did. And it's better

1:06:28

but either way, find the courage

1:06:33

to do that. Yeah,

1:06:35

yeah. Cuz that says just create a really beautiful effect, especially

1:06:37

with light. And you know,

1:06:41

capturing that because there's,

1:06:41

there's that really nice effect

1:06:44

of you put, basically, the bare

1:06:44

minimum, almost, it's very

1:06:49

simplified, and it's very, gosh,

1:06:49

it has a bit of a sort of

1:06:54

somewhat of like, a blurry

1:06:54

effect, I like to call it it's

1:06:57

almost like a simplified light

1:06:57

effect that just creates this

1:07:04

very three dimensional person

1:07:04

very easily. So I understand.

1:07:11

Lots of soft edges

1:07:14

you get the

1:07:14

likeness a lot, lot faster than

1:07:17

if you were, you know, obviously

1:07:17

measuring everything. But it of

1:07:20

course, that's the drawback the,

1:07:20

you know, you can't really use

1:07:23

site size all the time, in the

1:07:23

exact same way, which can be

1:07:27

very limiting, but for sure, for

1:07:27

portraiture, it's nice. So the

1:07:31

other thing that I was very

1:07:31

curious about, which I haven't

1:07:35

asked in a while, is how do you

1:07:35

personally feel about AI? Art?

1:07:39

And do you think it's, it's how

1:07:39

do you think it'll affect the

1:07:43

realism world?

1:07:45

Well, I am conscious

1:07:45

last night, and there was a band

1:07:50

from Slovenia, and the guy that

1:07:50

was hosting the concert, he

1:07:54

said, if you like, how do you

1:07:54

feel about submitting music? I

1:07:58

said, I'm perfectly indifferent.

1:07:58

I have no opinion about 30

1:08:01

missiles. Never been there. And

1:08:01

I don't know. But I feel the

1:08:04

same way about AI. I don't know

1:08:04

anything about it. And I'm

1:08:08

particularly intimidated by it

1:08:08

I'm not interested in. I'm a

1:08:11

writer too. So I think writing

1:08:11

maybe could help you get through

1:08:17

some places where you can have

1:08:17

jammed up. But whatever help I

1:08:22

got from it, I was sure go back

1:08:22

and redo it and make it my own.

1:08:26

But somebody said recently, some

1:08:26

famous writers, so let's call it

1:08:30

what it is. It's just as grand

1:08:30

international plagiarism source.

1:08:35

Everything that provides us plagiarism.

1:08:37

Yeah. Yeah.

1:08:37

Well, that makes sense. I mean,

1:08:43

it's, uh, the tool itself is, I

1:08:43

mean, it's give it all of this

1:08:50

input from a bunch of different

1:08:50

people. And you know, obviously,

1:08:54

especially with paintings, I've

1:08:54

actually seen images that have

1:08:57

come out on the other side, that

1:08:57

have the actual signature of a

1:09:01

real Painter at the bottom. And

1:09:01

not even like the AI just

1:09:06

because it's stolen. It just

1:09:06

thinks, oh, it's supposed to go

1:09:09

there. So I think that's

1:09:09

definitely a testament to it

1:09:12

being not quite ethical, in

1:09:12

that.

1:09:19

It's not ethical, but

1:09:19

it's also not delicate. I would

1:09:24

contend that the amalgamation of

1:09:24

input from digital sources can

1:09:29

never be subtle and human and

1:09:29

sensitive. I would challenge it

1:09:34

to ever be that way. It's not. I

1:09:34

don't think you can write a

1:09:38

masterpiece of a book. There are

1:09:38

a lot of bad books written by

1:09:41

people. But if you want a really

1:09:41

bad book, read one by an AI. I

1:09:46

think it's just clumsy and

1:09:46

awkward. It lacks a soul.

1:09:51

Yes. Yeah,

1:09:51

that's the part it's a it's not.

1:09:57

It's kind of like oh my gosh.

1:09:57

It's kind of like Plato's cave.

1:10:02

It's the person in the cave. You

1:10:02

know, we're outside and then the

1:10:06

AI and the AI can't leave the

1:10:06

cave. At least not yet. We'll

1:10:10

see what it does.

1:10:14

Yeah, well

1:10:14

recommended on the sheet. Oh,

1:10:17

yeah. It'll

1:10:17

probably look like Terminator.

1:10:21

Yeah. Yeah. Um, by the way, can

1:10:21

you tell us where people can

1:10:26

learn more from you?

1:10:29

I have a website.

1:10:29

What is my website calm. It's

1:10:32

called San miguel.com. You can

1:10:32

go to my website, which is TC

1:10:38

tyler.com. But we click

1:10:38

workshops that takes you over to

1:10:42

San Miguel side. I used to

1:10:42

travel for years I travel around

1:10:46

and every three to four weeks

1:10:46

and it's done the workshop and

1:10:49

I'm just going to stay here for

1:10:49

now and do workshops here

1:10:52

because it's a gorgeous town.

1:10:52

Wonderful place a wonderful

1:10:58

place to visit which I guess has

1:10:58

something to do a workshop and

1:11:02

it's like I used to teach in

1:11:02

Italy and provides I knew that

1:11:06

people went to Italy in Provence

1:11:06

not to see me they just wanted

1:11:09

to take a workshop and Emily

1:11:09

provides it was more about Lake

1:11:12

Como than it was me. Famous me

1:11:12

yeah. Cool. Just, um, just the

1:11:19

sidebar. Excuse.

1:11:23

Yeah, I've

1:11:23

heard that from other people who

1:11:25

have taken or taught workshops

1:11:25

in France and Italy. I agree.

1:11:31

San Miguel is very beautiful.

1:11:31

I've seen pictures of it. And

1:11:34

it's, it's very picturesque, has

1:11:34

a lot of gorgeous architecture.

1:11:39

Yeah.

1:11:41

This 50 good

1:11:41

restaurants here any outrageous?

1:11:49

Yeah.

1:11:49

Awesome. And then by the way, do

1:11:51

you have a social media that

1:11:51

maybe people could find you on?

1:11:56

I'm supposed to do

1:11:56

more Instagram than I do. I'm a

1:11:58

Braveheart slash him on

1:11:58

Instagram, but pretty negligent

1:12:04

on that I need to do better.

1:12:07

I think maybe you have a YouTube channel, right? Yes,

1:12:11

I do. That's another

1:12:11

one I've been neglected about is

1:12:13

my YouTube. I started doing live

1:12:13

interactions with my students.

1:12:17

And I haven't sat down to do a

1:12:17

step by step tutorial like I

1:12:21

should suppose. I need to do

1:12:21

more of that. I really do. I did

1:12:26

my miss. Oh,

1:12:28

I mean, you

1:12:28

know, it's never too late. Yes.

1:12:34

Yes. Well, thank you so much,

1:12:34

Tim, for giving us your

1:12:39

wonderful advice. And for the

1:12:39

very engaging chat.

1:12:45

I can see I've been

1:12:45

watching quite famous artists. I

1:12:51

love that.

1:12:52

Yes. Yeah. I

1:12:52

love that too. It's it's very

1:12:55

mind opening to be able to talk

1:12:55

to so many absolutely amazing

1:12:59

people on the podcast. So I'm

1:12:59

very grateful.

1:13:03

Thank you.

1:13:04

Thank you.