0:04

The Book of Joe Podcast is a production

0:06

of iHeartRadio.

0:15

Hey there, and welcome back.

0:16

It's the latest edition of the

0:18

Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom

0:20

Verducci and of course Joe Madden and Joe.

0:22

I'd like to continue the discussion we've had,

0:24

and it's been a really good one, and actually all

0:26

of baseball has been having it about how

0:28

to keep pictures healthy. And we

0:31

have the ultimate guest, especially for a

0:33

podcast that loves golf almost as much

0:36

as baseball, Nobody

0:38

better to talk about this issue than

0:41

the great Greg Maddox, literally

0:44

the winningest pitcher alive. He

0:46

pitch twenty three years in the major leagues

0:49

in more.

0:49

Than five thousand innings.

0:51

We are going to get to Greg Maddox in our

0:53

second segment, and right now, Joe, I want

0:56

to review what we talked about in terms of velocity

0:58

and keeping pictures healthy. I'd

1:00

mentioned that eighteen

1:02

of the top twenty one hardest throwing starting

1:05

pitchers in the last five years have broken down.

1:07

Well, you can make it nineteen out of twenty one now

1:09

because Bobby Miller of the LA Dodgers is

1:11

now on the IL.

1:12

That's a ninety percent attrition rate.

1:15

I went back, and I looked at the guys who have average

1:17

below, which is between ninety three and ninety

1:19

four.

1:20

Their attrition rate is about sixty percent.

1:22

So there's no question that throwing harder

1:25

puts pitchers more at risk.

1:28

So, Joe, you've heard all the data,

1:30

you see what's going on in the game. Do you have suggestions

1:33

about how baseball can Obviously

1:35

you're not going to stop it, but at least mitigate

1:37

the risk of injury.

1:39

Well, I mean this is we talked

1:41

about it, the velocity and all that other

1:43

stuff. You just brought it back up. I still tried

1:46

and true pitching. It's going to

1:48

be. You just can't put the velocity back in

1:50

the genie bottle, right, you just don't want

1:52

to do that. You've come so far right, so you can't

1:54

just overlook it put it back whatever.

1:57

However, it always starts in the minor leagues

1:59

for me and the program

2:01

that gets these guys to the point that they're throwing a

2:03

hundred an hour, I don't think they innately do that.

2:06

I mean, that's a rare occurrence when a guy

2:08

has an arm that just God says, here,

2:10

here's one hundred miles an hour. I

2:12

can see a raw this Chapman as an example being that

2:14

guy just based on his size whatever. But

2:16

at some point, I don't know if it's the training techniques.

2:18

It goes all the way back to when they're a little bit younger.

2:21

We don't even care that kids in high school are getting

2:23

Tommy John surgery anymore. It's okay because

2:26

the carrot is that eventually they're going to get drafted,

2:28

give them a lot of money. And of course it's

2:30

always going to be about money and the

2:32

perception about winning. But you don't win because

2:34

these guys are keep getting hurt. Roundabout

2:36

answer, I still like pitching

2:40

taught, not throwing taught. Grank's

2:42

going to be a perfect example of that, and I yeah,

2:45

one of his pitching coaches that he loves is a good

2:47

friend of mine, Dick Paul, and I

2:49

don't understand why that's not taught. I mean,

2:51

I going back to recently,

2:54

even with the Angels watching bullpens,

2:56

I could honestly say there was some because it wasn't

2:58

many hundred mile hour dos there, so there was a lot of like

3:00

pitching shaping, hitting

3:02

corners, moving the ball around, things like that,

3:05

and the ability to do to pitch into

3:07

the sixth or seventh inning the third time through,

3:09

because I have more weapons and I don't run out of gas

3:12

because I'm just I got my the

3:14

pedal to the floor on every

3:16

particular pitch. So the answer is teach

3:18

pitching. Teach. And we've talked

3:20

to about the mechanical dissertation too.

3:23

But I mean my buddy Jimmy Colonel, and

3:25

I gotta give him credit. Man, he keeps throwing

3:27

me pictures where pitcher's arms are

3:29

way behind their head. It's almost like they're overrotated

3:31

on the top. And he every like

3:34

the kid with Atlanta. He just showed me pictures of recently.

3:36

It's so yeah, you're absolutely

3:39

right, Joe.

3:39

I mean you can look at this and I call it forearm

3:42

flyout, where that right the hand and forearm

3:44

get way too far beyond the head. You

3:47

can see injuries about to happen

3:49

before they actually do. You made a lot of good

3:51

points there, Joe, And you mentioned

3:53

Dick Paul, one of Greg's best pitching coaches.

3:56

I remember Greg telling me that when he was in

3:58

trouble, he never thought about throwing harder.

4:00

He thought about locating better.

4:02

And we have to get back somehow to that philosophy

4:05

about pitching and not throwing. But

4:07

you're right, it's hard to put the genie back in the

4:09

bottle. Everybody's chasing v low because

4:12

it.

4:12

Is harder to hit. I get it.

4:14

I actually think Joe, we're at a point here

4:16

where signing up to be a pitcher

4:18

it's basically like signing up to be

4:21

a hang glider or a rock climber.

4:23

It's inherently risky, and you sign

4:25

up knowing what that risk is. You're going to push the envelope

4:28

on velocity, knowing that you're

4:30

a breakdown waiting to happen because the body just

4:33

cannot withstand the upper limits of velocity

4:35

that we're seeing.

4:36

So how many how many guys you have to sign? How many pitches

4:38

you have to get ready in a major league season because you know

4:40

the attrition's going to curve.

4:41

Absolutely, it's a great point. It does become

4:44

a war of attrition. And let me bring up this,

4:46

this hypothetical situation. You've got Paul's

4:48

skeins now within the Pirates

4:50

system and pitch the LSU upper

4:53

nineties one hundred miles an hour. He throw

4:55

the ball through a brick wall. He

4:58

is just dominating Triple A hitters. For

5:00

the life of me, I don't understand why he's there

5:02

in Triple A. You know, now, college

5:04

baseball, especially if you're in the

5:06

SEC, it's like the equivalent

5:09

I think of Double A baseball minor league

5:11

baseball. And the instruction that these kids are getting is

5:13

amazing for a guy

5:15

who throws again upper nineties.

5:18

And if you watch Paul Skeen's pitch, his

5:20

mechanics are not clean. He

5:23

picks the ball up in the loaded position with

5:25

his elbow. In other words, his elbow raises

5:27

above his back shoulder. That's

5:29

inherently stressful. I'm not saying he's a breakdown

5:31

waiting to happen, but it is a bit of a red flag that

5:34

you look at. And given what we've talked

5:36

about, we've seen all his data. When starting

5:38

pitchers are throwing in the upper nineties without

5:41

clean mechanics, I don't

5:43

know why the Pittsburgh Pirates don't bring him

5:45

up right now, because Joe, you put

5:47

him in the Pirate rotation right now. He's

5:50

one of the ten best pitchers in Major League Baseball. His

5:52

stuff is that good. I don't think he has anything

5:54

to prove by blowing the ball by triple A hitters,

5:57

and that clock is ticking as it is with all young

5:59

pitchers, not just hard throwers.

6:01

Well, I mean being all that that is

6:03

meant that that is may that we're

6:06

gonna get all these guys throwing trying

6:08

to three hundred miles an hour. That's what organizations want.

6:11

There's only there's still a limited amount of

6:13

those guys too. But you know they're eventually going to break down

6:15

almost one hundred, like you said, ninety percent of the time. So

6:17

why okay, let's get those guys. We're

6:19

gonna We're still gonna go sign those guys. We want

6:21

those guys are We're gonna try our best

6:23

to keep them healthy as long as we possibly can. But

6:26

in the meantime, why do we get more guys

6:29

that are more tuned to pitching. Guys that maybe are

6:31

in that ninety one to ninety three range, maybe

6:33

hit ninety four nicasia, but know how to shape pitches,

6:36

hit corners, hit edges, have multiple

6:38

pitches that they could attack hitters

6:40

with the third time into the battle to why

6:43

not try to build a cachet

6:45

of those two they're more

6:47

easily reddible or findable. You could

6:49

find these guys in every university, even

6:52

in high schools of course junior colleges, so

6:54

maybe it might be wise. They're like, yeah, we still

6:56

want this animal, which is what we

6:58

wanted when I was coming up. And at that time Charlie

7:01

Kerf fell through ninety seven miles an hour and

7:04

that was considered heavy in the early

7:06

eighties when he was at the Abapai Junior

7:08

College. But then again, I could just go up and down a

7:10

list of the guys at pitch. I mean Oka, Mark Langston,

7:13

How good was Langley? And Langley was a

7:15

low ninety kind of guy, maybe a little bit higher

7:17

than that on occasion, but his ball had great

7:20

low I caught him in bould a great low

7:22

carry, great low carry than his outstanding

7:24

curveball and a change up that nobody ever

7:26

talked about. And that's why Langley was able

7:28

to. Plus he was great athletes, So why

7:31

not build both models? Why do we have to just

7:33

go after one because you know the ones

7:36

probably going to break down and you have to have

7:38

this backup plan with guys that you

7:40

have to believe are going to be more consistently healthy

7:42

than the other.

7:43

Great points Joe, and just to back

7:45

up your points, what if someone

7:48

like Greg Mannix was available for the draft

7:50

this year. We're talking about a high school

7:52

pitcher at six feet tall,

7:54

maybe one hundred and sixty one hundred and seventy

7:56

pounds, throwing right around ninety,

7:59

maybe topping out at ninety. He

8:01

went in the second round of the

8:03

drivet. And what

8:06

kind of scout is going to beat the drums

8:09

for a picture like that today?

8:10

A seventeen year old throwing ninety. I

8:13

don't know.

8:14

But it's a fascinating

8:16

discussion. And when we get back

8:18

we will continue it with the man we just

8:20

talked about, Greg Maddocks, will

8:22

join us to talk, of course, golf at

8:25

baseball, two of our favorite subjects.

8:27

Right after this.

8:27

Hope you could help me? Hope you could help me?

8:41

Well, we promised you the winningest pitcher

8:43

alive, and here he is, Greg Maddox.

8:45

One of our favorites and one

8:48

of our favorite topics is golf.

8:49

Greg, So I'm glad you're joining us from the Invited

8:51

Celebrity Classic. It's actually a PGA

8:54

Tour champions event where you've got

8:56

seventy eight PGA Tour champions

8:59

in the field and forty celebrities

9:02

from the sports and entertainment world, and Greg

9:04

Mannix is one of them. It's

9:06

this weekend, April nineteenth to twenty first,

9:08

a beautiful Las Colinas Country Club

9:10

in Irving, Texas.

9:12

Greg, thanks for joining us.

9:13

Tell me, I know you love You've

9:15

loved golf for a long time and had a lot of chances

9:18

to play when you were playing Major League Baseball.

9:20

How much do you play now compared to when

9:23

you were playing MLB?

9:24

Well, actually I play a little bit more

9:26

now I don't have to go to the park anymore. So you

9:28

know, I got my group of guys back in Vegas,

9:31

and you know we got the second third

9:33

tea time every day and try

9:35

to get out there at least four or five times a week and

9:38

enjoy retirement.

9:39

So that means your game is better, right.

9:41

No, that's the same. Just because you're play more, it doesn't

9:43

mean you get better. But you

9:45

know, I like the game. I love playing.

9:47

I like watching it on TV.

9:48

I loved watching the Masters last week, and

9:51

it's pretty cool coming down here to Los Kalinas,

9:54

and you know, playing with all the senior

9:56

players. I mean, we watched these guys in our clubhouse

9:58

in the nineties for like ten years, you know, when

10:00

they were out doing their things. So it's kind of it's kind

10:03

of our fantasy camp this week.

10:05

Very cool.

10:05

I got to ask this, Greg, when you're in a tournament like

10:07

this, does it I don't know if it replaces

10:10

or come close to the competitive ititch that you had

10:12

as a major league pitcher.

10:14

Not really.

10:14

This is just fun, you know.

10:16

I mean, you know, pitching is what I did.

10:18

You know, that was how I made my living, and

10:21

you know it was all about, you know, seeing

10:23

how good you can be on the mound. And you know, golf

10:25

is pure pleasure, just fun. And

10:27

you know, I don't want to make it too stressful, you

10:30

know, I want to sit back and enjoy the game and

10:32

enjoy the company.

10:33

Very cool.

10:34

Well, you got a great one and a great course this

10:36

weekend. I'm sure you will enjoy it. Meanwhile,

10:38

I'm sure besides watching the Masters, you've

10:41

probably followed some of the chatter around Major League

10:43

Baseball this year with as it relates to the

10:45

breakdowns of major league pitchers when

10:47

it comes to elbow injuries and velocity.

10:50

You're a guy pitched.

10:51

Twenty three years more than

10:54

five thousand innings.

10:56

Greg, how many times were you on the injured

10:58

list eight days.

11:00

I missed the first eight days of kind

11:03

of my backup the last week of spring training,

11:06

and I think I ended up starting

11:08

like the seventh game of the season something like that

11:10

one year. But pretty fortunate

11:12

to never have any serious injuries. And you

11:16

know, I guess all those shoulder exercises

11:18

paid off when I was you know, back

11:20

in.

11:20

The day when I was doing it.

11:22

Yeah, and pretty good mechanics helped too, I'm

11:24

sure. So tell me, Greg, as an

11:26

observer of the sport and obviously

11:29

annoying pitching, so, well, how do

11:31

you explain the accelerated rate

11:33

of breakdowns what you're seeing in the major leagues?

11:35

What are some of your theories?

11:37

Well, I just think, you know, being

11:39

around a lot of young college guys and high school

11:41

guys, it's all about the VLO.

11:44

You know. It's all about how hard can I throw it?

11:46

What can I do to throw it and

11:48

get my spin rates up and all that, and that's kind

11:50

of what most of the pitchers are kind

11:53

of shooting for. I think when we were growing

11:55

up, we were learning how to pitch. We were learning how

11:57

to locate our fastball and

11:59

change speeds. You know, we threw hard enough

12:01

to have success. We weren't trying

12:03

to force extra velocity. We're trying

12:06

to force extra pitch collection and

12:08

location and movement and game planning

12:10

and all those things. So, you

12:13

know, I think that's a big part of it. Also, I think,

12:16

you know, the kids today, they play year round. I

12:18

mean they were growing up, played

12:20

a lot of basketball, played a little

12:23

bit of football, played all the sports, played

12:26

baseball for four months a year.

12:27

You know.

12:27

I think the guys now are playing you know, ten

12:30

twelve months a year, you know, with all the club ball

12:32

going on and the travel and all that.

12:34

So you know, that's a lot of throws

12:36

from the time year fifteen to twenty

12:39

two, you know, when you've been playing year round

12:41

like that, so there's only so many

12:43

throws in your arm. And doesn't seem

12:45

like they take the time off that we took.

12:48

I love the liberal arts approach where you're

12:50

doing more than one thing and participating

12:53

and we're than one sport. It comes right down to even having

12:55

different coaches with different philosophies and different

12:57

attitudes and the different kind of people

12:59

that you have to cohabitate with.

13:01

So I love that approach. It's curious

13:04

I'd be with all this stuff going on and all the training

13:06

regiments, and you've been around it. I know you've

13:08

been to different camps or you've talked to different guys whatever,

13:10

but briefly, your routine. I mean, I'm

13:12

just curious, like your routine has a major league

13:14

started for that many years. Okay,

13:17

you're starting today? What is today? Wednesday?

13:19

Right? You start today? Then to

13:22

you up into your next start, what did your routine look

13:24

like?

13:24

Well, I mean obviously Thursday, I would be pretty

13:26

sore and tired from pitching, you know,

13:29

the day before, so I took it pretty easy. I would

13:31

do like an easy thirty minute bike ride,

13:34

maybe a forty minute walk, didn't do a

13:36

whole lot the day after, kind of rest

13:38

and recovery day, and

13:40

watch a little video for my next start in five

13:43

days or four days and Tuesday,

13:46

then you would start to take care

13:48

of your body, do what you have to do for your arms

13:50

and legs, did the shoulder

13:52

exercises every day regardless,

13:55

and.

13:57

Had your side day that day, and.

14:00

You know that was to try to improve

14:02

on wasn't as good as you wanted it to be your

14:04

last start, and then you know, stick

14:07

to your strengths, which was locating fastballs

14:09

and have a feel for your change up. You

14:12

know, third and fourth day was again taking care of

14:14

your body, doing your legs, your your

14:16

abs and and all that stuff, and

14:19

you know, getting your game plan ready for when

14:21

you have to pitch on Monday.

14:23

On the side day, specifically when you're when

14:25

you were out there, whatever the work was, but

14:27

you were very the way you

14:30

pitched, you were very You had to be very specific

14:32

in your work on that on that side day.

14:35

And did you ever skip the side day as the season

14:37

went on, did you have to cut back on

14:39

your throwing at any point?

14:40

Absolutely? Yeah.

14:42

If my arm didn't feel right, then I would totally

14:44

skip the side day and I

14:48

would throw balls maybe ten feet

14:50

away against the outfield wall, you

14:52

know, just to get.

14:53

Some exercise in with it.

14:55

But you know, yeah,

14:58

I was not afraid to skip a side day, that's for sure.

15:01

But I enjoyed throwing on the side need

15:04

to, you know, I enjoyed

15:06

spending that time with my coach and you

15:09

know, having a good side day and sitting

15:11

down there in the bullpen talking ball while the other team's

15:13

taking batting practice.

15:14

You know, that was some of the funnest days of the year.

15:16

Did you like, were you a weightlifter? Did you run

15:18

a lot in between starts? What was your method of

15:21

staying shit? You talked about walking the day after whatever,

15:23

But yeah, did you have anything more more exact

15:25

than that?

15:26

Mostly sprints, very little distance.

15:29

I think I did mostly sprints, A.

15:31

Lot of power shagging, believe it or not, enjoyed

15:33

during batting practice, going out in the outfield and power

15:35

shagging, and and mostly

15:37

running sprints.

15:39

That was it.

15:40

I did enough running where if I had to run

15:42

the bases and say, score

15:45

a lot, then I wanted to be able to,

15:47

you know, come out next inning without you know,

15:49

being winded or anything like that.

15:51

You could hit So you had to take some VP too. That was

15:53

part of your program back then too.

15:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah, BP yeah,

15:57

home run Derby for the pictures. A lot of fun

15:59

doing that. Get your buns down and see how far you can

16:01

hit it.

16:02

So, I mean, but you guys were so athletic. It was a I

16:04

mean, everything you're talking about there was like kind of almost like

16:06

almost a position player routine in

16:08

between. Yah, we were doing

16:10

a lot of different things. I love the shagging part of

16:12

it. That guys don't. I'm not banging on anybody

16:14

right now, but that a lot of that is not how it works

16:16

these days. And yeah,

16:18

I just prefer like the athletic,

16:21

the normal body movement routine kind

16:23

of a thing that you're describing right

16:25

there. I don't even know how much Back then

16:27

you had to run with your pitching coach a lot of times too.

16:29

They would be out there watching that whole thing and

16:32

some of that. Some of that, I just think it's

16:34

getting to the point where it's way too lopsided

16:37

and not really incorporating

16:39

things like that that we had done in the past that I think are really

16:42

more vital than than is realized.

16:44

Yeah, exactly.

16:45

I mean I know on Sundays we had pitchers

16:47

enfield where you know, Smoltsy

16:49

would play short, I'd go to second. We had Avery

16:52

at first, and yeah, we sat

16:54

there and played the killed on Sundays because that was

16:56

an optional hitting day for the guys.

16:58

So you know, we lived.

17:01

Yeah, we had a lot of fun being a baseball

17:03

player, just a pitcher.

17:05

Greg, give me your idea on how

17:07

you treated velocity, because I always thought

17:10

earlier in your career you weren't give enough

17:12

credit for the quality of

17:14

your stuff. Locasion they talked a lot about

17:16

the quality of your stuff was really really good,

17:19

and give me an idea

17:21

of what you were throwing in

17:24

terms of, you know, the percentage

17:26

that you had in the tank, and was

17:29

there times maybe it was

17:31

each time you took the ball that you

17:33

sort of paced yourself in terms

17:35

of you low, knowing you were probably going to get the same hitters

17:37

out three or four times.

17:39

You never really paced yourself, but you had

17:41

to do something a little different

17:44

the third and fourth time through the lineup. You know, hopefully

17:46

you pitched the inside enough. You

17:49

know, in a perfect world, when

17:51

it's late in the game, you

17:54

realize you're a little tired, so you have to rely

17:56

on your command more than your velocity.

17:58

And at the same time, your changeups usually probably

18:01

going to be better than your breaking ball.

18:02

So you know, that was than I understood.

18:05

So, you know, the first two times

18:07

through the lineup, if I could stay away from,

18:10

you know, throwing too many fastballs away, I wanted

18:12

to show the guys in. I wanted to show them a breaking

18:14

ball because I knew later on in the game that I

18:17

was going to have more success throwing fastballs

18:19

away in change ups, So I didn't want

18:21

to abuse that the first couple of times through the lineup.

18:24

And I mentioned the fact that I remember

18:26

you telling me once when you were in trouble you thought

18:28

about not throwing harder but locating

18:31

better.

18:31

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean execution

18:35

wins.

18:35

I know velocity is nice and big

18:37

sliders are nice, but you

18:40

know, execution still wins even

18:42

in today's game. You know, the pitcher that's

18:44

going out there and executing the most quality

18:47

pitches is the one that's going to win. You know, I always

18:49

told the guys, look, it's not a speed contest, it's

18:51

a pitching contest. You know, if that was

18:53

the case, Nolan Ryan would have went, you know, five hundred

18:55

to no.

18:56

Nobody threw harder than him.

18:57

So you know, you have to be able

19:00

to execute pitches and

19:02

you know, get your break the ball down and

19:04

locate some fastballs.

19:06

Quick quick question too. I mean, okay,

19:08

your overarching philosophy. You go out there, you start

19:10

the game to get I mean you were famous

19:13

for going through eight nine innings

19:15

with the limited number of pitches. Hitter

19:17

comes up to the plate, obviously your first

19:20

thought is not to strike him up, but to elicit

19:22

soft contact with the ball player early. Make your

19:24

defense player or how did you what

19:26

was what was your overarching philosophy with that.

19:29

I mean, it's pitch selection.

19:31

You know, you can't

19:33

get a strike out until two strikes anyway, so

19:35

most of the time you're trying to get strike one or two.

19:38

So you know, it was, what's the safest

19:40

pitch to throw?

19:41

What's the easiest pitch I can throw right now

19:43

to get a strike and if he hits it, it stays in front

19:45

of the outfield. You know that That was how

19:47

I did my pitch selection, and you

19:49

know the hitter would determine that or the count,

19:52

you know, and then

19:54

two strikes again, you

19:56

know, you try to beat them with location, and

19:59

you know you accidentally get.

20:00

A lot of strikeouts that way.

20:02

You know you're not necessarily trying to strike

20:04

the guy out, but you know there's something in the back

20:06

of your mind going, if I put that ball right there, he might

20:08

not swing at it. So you

20:11

know, it was just really tried

20:14

to keep it simple. Oh

20:16

two, I figured it's the hardest it's the hardest

20:18

count to hit in.

20:19

So I always thought that's the easiest.

20:21

Count to throw a strike in. You know,

20:23

so too, it's the hardest

20:25

count.

20:26

To hit it.

20:27

You know, I never understood the setup pitcher

20:29

the waist pitch. You know, that made no sense to

20:31

me. You know, you know, every

20:33

time you throw a setup pitcher a waste pitch,

20:35

it puts a lot of pressure on the next pitch if

20:37

if you don't execute it.

20:39

So you know, why give away a free pitch?

20:42

Greg?

20:42

I remember late in your career in spring training

20:44

year with the Padres, and David Wells was

20:46

there as well, and the two of you were

20:48

having a conversation and somehow you got around

20:50

the talking about all the complete games

20:53

both of you threw in the minor leagues.

20:55

Yeah, Greg Mannix wasn't in the.

20:57

Minors for a long time, but he had seventeen

21:00

complete games in the minor leagues.

21:02

Most pitchers now, most pitchers are getting

21:04

to the big leagues now without ever

21:07

seeing even the seventh thing, without

21:09

ever seeing.

21:10

A one hundredth pitch.

21:11

Yeah, give me your take on where you

21:13

think the game is gone in terms of dialing

21:16

back the workloads of starting

21:18

pitchers, even in terms of how much rest

21:20

they get as well.

21:21

Yeah, I mean there's kind of a fine line between

21:24

developing and also

21:26

teaching the guys how to win you know, I

21:28

think, I think you have to

21:30

teach winning as you're developing.

21:33

And you know that that's the one thing that I

21:35

didn't see in the minor leagues. I've

21:38

been to a few games, even in Vegas the last

21:40

couple of years. The Triple

21:42

A team of the A's is out there, and you

21:45

don't see you

21:47

don't see players doing things to win.

21:50

It's more like, well, I got seventy

21:52

pitches and I need to throw twenty two percent

21:55

off speed, and you know I need to throw

21:57

you know, five percent fastballs up. You know,

21:59

it seems like it's

22:01

not let's read the hitter or the situation,

22:03

wait and execute a pitch off of that.

22:06

It just seems it seems too prescripted.

22:08

And you know, I would love to

22:11

see the minor league

22:13

coaches like develop their players and

22:15

how to win baseball games instead of just how

22:17

to stay healthy and you know, throw

22:19

the number of pitches they're supposed to throw.

22:22

Your your two seam or your front

22:24

hip to the lefty. I mean I didn't

22:27

I saw you like a little bit, and even in instructionally

22:29

back in the day too, because that was what the Angels then. But

22:32

that's that is beautiful that's

22:35

Kyle Hendricks has some of that in

22:37

him also. That's been very successful in the change

22:39

up off of that. When how did you

22:41

develop that? When did that come about? Who was

22:43

the instigator? I love

22:46

watching that, We all do. Bartolo Colo and I used

22:48

to sit in a room with bart part and he would

22:50

just play front hip come backers

22:52

on lefties and giggle the whole time.

22:54

Yeah.

22:55

It's a beautiful and a lot of guys aren't

22:58

it courageous enough? Do they work on enough?

23:00

But I mean if I'm a righty and

23:02

I could come back a lefty like that, man, it

23:04

frees him up. Yeah, wow with a weapon.

23:07

Yeah, you know, it's weird because you

23:09

know, the old school of thought was you can't

23:11

pitch a lefty down and end, you know.

23:13

And I was a very young pitcher

23:15

and I tried that pitch with two strikes.

23:17

Of course, it leaked over the middle and the guy hit it

23:19

out, and you know, I kind of got scolded

23:22

a little bit. What are you doing nothing around? Down and

23:24

into a lefty? And sure

23:27

enough, man, that night, I'm watching the Dodger game in

23:29

Hersheiser's pitching and he's doing

23:31

it, and I saw oral you

23:33

know, get about two or three punch outs that night

23:35

throwing that pitch. And you

23:39

know, I had a conversation with my coach

23:41

the next day and said, you know, I don't want to give.

23:42

Up on that pitch. I want to keep throwing it.

23:44

And good for you.

23:45

You know, it's if you throw

23:48

it I mean, it helps, it helps if you can throw

23:50

it.

23:50

Greg, give us an idea.

23:51

Besides, when you're now playing golf, what

23:54

you're doing these days. I know

23:56

for a while there you had been working with a lot of young

23:58

pitchers. You still have your hand in baseball.

24:01

You know what. No,

24:04

this spring I didn't really do anything.

24:05

We actually had our first grand kid about ten days

24:08

ago, so I wanted

24:10

to.

24:10

Be around for that.

24:11

I was with the Rangers the year before with

24:14

my brother down there for you know, about twenty

24:16

days of spring training twenty five days, and I

24:19

kind of missed it, you know, but I

24:21

wanted to be home next to the next

24:24

to the kids and see my first grandkid being

24:26

born.

24:26

And you know, we travel around

24:28

a little bit.

24:29

We spend some time in California and

24:32

you know, watch a lot of Netflix.

24:34

Me God live the same life,

24:36

my God, only I'm not as good at golf as you are.

24:40

Hey, Greg, before we let you go here, you

24:42

know, Major League Baseball has put together They've

24:45

gathered about one hundred different experts in the

24:47

field when it comes to biomechanics, coaching,

24:49

doctors, trainers, managers,

24:52

you name it. They're trying to get their arms around the

24:54

issue here and and where they go

24:56

forward from here to try to

24:58

keep pictures healthier. If

25:01

I include you in this group,

25:04

you're Greg Mannix. You pitched twenty three

25:06

years without an arm injury. I want

25:08

to hear what Greg Mannix has to say about how we

25:11

move this game forward. What kind

25:13

of suggestions ideas could

25:15

you offer?

25:16

Well, I mean, all you can do is speak

25:18

from experience.

25:19

You know.

25:19

I think, you know, the decades

25:22

before we got there, the pitchers were throwing three hundred

25:24

innings a year. You know, we're trying

25:26

to get to like two thirty two forty. The

25:29

guys before us were thrown over three hundred.

25:31

So you know, that's just kind

25:33

of the way the game has been going, you

25:35

know, for the last you know, few decades,

25:37

and you know it's a shame. I

25:40

don't really have an answer why these guys are getting

25:42

hurt. I mean, It's easy to say they're

25:44

overthrowing or they're trying to throw

25:46

it too hard, you know, But you watch somebody

25:49

like Jacob deGrom and you watch

25:51

him throw and it's an easy ninety eight coming

25:53

out of his hand. He's not overthrowing, but

25:55

it's still ninety eight. So you

25:59

know, that's tough question, you know. I think that's

26:01

best left up to the medical guys and all

26:03

that. But I know I

26:05

know if you're able to repeat your delivery,

26:07

I think you'll arm.

26:08

Your arm will learn to take care of itself.

26:10

Well said Greg Madnix. Always

26:13

a pleasure. No one knows the.

26:15

Art of pitching and did it better than Greg Mannix.

26:17

Thanks so much for joining us on the Book of Joe podcast

26:20

and and good luck.

26:21

Bring back a trophy from this weekend at Las.

26:23

Colinasky, well, I'll buy

26:25

shirt and the pro shop.

26:26

I'll take that home with Thanks

26:29

Greg, I appreciate it. Man.

26:30

All right, guys, thank you, guys.

26:32

Bye, all right.

26:32

Thanks to Greg Maddox all

26:35

time winning his pitcher Alive

26:38

three hundred and fifty five wins

26:40

in the major leagues and most

26:43

astonishing given today's climate, twenty

26:45

three years in the Big league's five thousand innings

26:48

without.

26:48

An arm injury.

26:49

It is incredible thanks.

26:50

To Greg Maddix. And we'll wrap up this edition to the Book

26:53

of Joe when we get back. Welcome

27:06

back to the Book of Joe podcast with Me, Tom

27:09

Verducci, and Joe Medden. Well, Joe,

27:11

that was It's always fascinating. I've always

27:13

said people ask me a lot of times, you know who youre,

27:16

what interviews to you are your favorite

27:18

over the years, and Greg Mannix has always

27:20

won for me because I always feel like each time

27:22

I talk to him, I learned something, you know, and

27:24

that's what I want to do as I cover Major League

27:26

Baseball. I want to learn how these

27:28

guys do what they do. I want to learn inside

27:31

the game. I don't want the superficial stuff. And

27:33

Greg Mannix is playing three D chess,

27:35

that's what he did on the mound, and you

27:37

know, I always learned something from him. So I'm

27:39

curious for you, Joe, listening to Greg talk

27:42

about this issue here, what stood

27:44

out for you from his perspective on pitching

27:46

today.

27:47

No, he kind of agrees with what

27:49

we had been saying regarding the velocity

27:51

and the chasing of velocity and how that kind

27:54

of leads to the issues that we're in. And then on

27:56

top of that, he talked about

27:58

pitching overthrowing, and that's

28:00

what he did. Also, I saw

28:02

him, like I said, in instruction leagues of some as

28:05

a very young pitcher. Didn't

28:07

realize at that time, I wasn't that good of a scout that he's

28:09

going to be as great as he turned out to be in the fact

28:11

that he was going to go all that way without injury.

28:15

But again, he, like you said, he wants to do in

28:17

simple terms, do simple better. His methods

28:19

so easy. You know, day after

28:21

a walk a lot, get the soreness

28:24

out and have a side day. But I took it off if

28:26

it wasn't feeling that good. I would

28:28

work on things specifically on my side day,

28:30

and then two more days and then he would pitch pretty

28:34

simple. I mean, there's not a whole lot going on there. He'd

28:36

pick up the other team regards to

28:38

scouting and how he would do it. But the

28:41

simplicity of it really stands out to me,

28:43

and I, as you know, do simple better, I'm

28:46

all about it. There's not a whole lot going

28:48

there, and I know some of it. I knew one of its pitching

28:50

coaches from particularly mister Dick Pole, and

28:52

now mister Pole did things and I could see those

28:54

two guys hitting it off because things were

28:56

kept simple and to the point

28:59

and not a lot of fluff and fanfare.

29:01

It was just pitching. It was baseball and Fleet.

29:04

He was a hitter. He did everything. Him and that

29:06

group of Atlanta pitchers

29:08

were all good golfers apparently too. They were

29:10

athletes, man, and they did things athletically,

29:13

and it wasn't a training situation

29:16

that took them away from being baseball

29:18

players. So I know that's not

29:20

done in that manner anymore. Specialization

29:24

is specialization, and we

29:26

always oftentimes I guess people

29:28

think it's better. But he just also explained

29:31

the liberal arts component of growing up. He played all

29:33

the sports, all the sports, different body

29:35

movements, didn't get stale, heard different

29:38

voices, different coaches, learned different things.

29:40

All this stuff that I know for me

29:43

is accurate and the right way to do things. So maybe

29:45

he validated some of my points to myself.

29:48

But I'd love to see that

29:50

resurface on a minor league

29:52

level, and again, more

29:55

minor league players, more minor league pitchers with

29:57

different skill sets, including deception

30:00

as being part of this cachet of pitchers

30:02

were trying to raise and understand that

30:05

velocity's kind of groovy, but

30:07

it breaks down.

30:08

Yeah, it's funny you're mentioning the liberal

30:10

arts training, if you will, for Greg Maddox, playing

30:12

multiple sports growing up, taking

30:15

ground balls in the infield, shagging in the outfield,

30:17

right touching field, days on the mound,

30:19

throwing, not trying to max things out with an iPad

30:22

behind you. But the spin ray was. But

30:24

then it also included playing golf. I mean,

30:27

these guys, the raised pitchers, played

30:29

a ton of golf. I even't played with them

30:31

a couple of times, and you know,

30:34

as they told me, you know, that meant getting up

30:36

early, going to these really nice courses,

30:38

which means they weren't out late.

30:39

They took care of themselves.

30:41

But I think getting out there and playing golf was part

30:43

of that liberal arts training you're talking about.

30:45

Joe, and I remember years ago, I

30:47

think it was Claude O. Steen was the pitching coach

30:50

of the Texas Rangers, and

30:52

he encouraged his pitchers to

30:54

go out and play golf with him. You

30:56

know, they'd have a little side bets and

30:58

that put pressure on them. You know, they weren't

31:00

conceding a two foot putt. The

31:03

idea of competition, of freeing up

31:05

the mind, that having the body move in different

31:07

ways, there was a benefit to that.

31:09

And I think, as you mentioned a great word you

31:11

mentioned, Joe specialized. Our society,

31:14

not just our sport, have become so specialized.

31:17

We're doing one thing really well

31:19

and missing out on what I call the humanities

31:22

or the liberal arts of athletics.

31:25

Yeah. I mean the part of it too is okay,

31:27

if you don't go play golf. When they did

31:29

go play golf, what does that mean. They

31:31

weren't sleeping in, they weren't laying around a hotel

31:34

room. They weren't just basically doing

31:36

nothing. Their body wasn't moving at all. And

31:39

as a latter part of my term

31:41

as a manager is when I finally started

31:43

playing some golf and man,

31:45

I would get up early like that. I'd go play golf

31:48

and my body felt so much better

31:50

for it. I'd come back, you take a nap and you go to the ballpark.

31:53

I think it's frowned upon because it's not understood.

31:56

I mean, when I used to ride my bike everymore,

31:58

I used to take my bike on a road for years,

32:00

and I could ride my bike all morning and I

32:03

would go from Copley Square

32:05

all we have to bust in college and back as an example

32:08

in city of Boston, and that was looked upon

32:10

as being, oh, that's pretty cool, that's groovy. But the moment

32:12

you want to play golf somehow it's

32:15

considered leisurely or the point

32:17

where you may get yourself tired.

32:19

There's all these different preconceived notions

32:22

that I don't agree with. My if you are okay,

32:24

if you're a regular player, it's harder to do that if

32:26

you're a regular player often, but if you do

32:28

it once in a while, I think it actually is beneficial

32:30

as opposed to laying around all day. So that's

32:33

what I do dig on that. I thought it was

32:35

a great idea. I've talked to other pictures

32:37

about it primarily, but I

32:40

do think there's something to be said for that.

32:41

Yes, hey, Joe, I wanted to go back

32:43

to something Greg said about Jacob

32:46

de Gram. Of course, Greg

32:48

mentioned he worked with Texas last year with his brother

32:50

and Mike Maddocks, the pitching coach there. They

32:52

know du Gram firsthand, and

32:55

de Gram to me has thrown a baseball

32:57

when he was healthy as well as

33:00

anybody I've ever seen in my life. I'm not saying

33:02

the best picture ever, but he raised

33:04

the art the power of pitching like nothing

33:07

I've ever seen before. As

33:09

Greg said, the ball came out of his hand easily

33:12

in the upper nineties, He's throwing sliders at

33:14

ninety five. As a starting pitcher, he basically

33:16

brought closer stuff to the mound for

33:19

six or seven innings. I've never seen

33:21

that. Seen great pictures Greg Maddox included,

33:24

but at the level he was doing it. But you know

33:26

what, Joe, to me, that's not sustainable.

33:29

And it's not because he had poor mechanics.

33:32

As Greg said, easy gas coming out of

33:34

his hand. But when you look at

33:36

Jacob de Gram, I mean, first of all, he's

33:38

shredded. The way he takes care of his

33:40

body is just crazy. He is a great athlete,

33:43

played shortstop in college before becoming

33:45

a full time pitcher. The way his body

33:47

moves through his delivery is very smooth. I don't

33:49

see any red flags with it, but

33:51

you know it, it's like your hell cat, Joe.

33:54

I mean, the engine can only be so big

33:56

in a chassis and I think what's

33:58

happening here, and Jake is a great example. And

34:00

I love Jacob de Gram, but I think he

34:02

throws too hard for his own good.

34:04

And by that I mean the UCL just

34:07

cannot withstand the torque that

34:09

is being put upon it. Because

34:11

we know so much about mechanics, we know so

34:13

much about training, we know so much about nutrition,

34:16

we know so much about how to add velocity

34:18

with weighted balls and such, that what

34:21

you can't control is that little

34:23

ligament that holds your elbow together.

34:25

You know, it looks effortless to us, and I've

34:27

always been a fan of that. And then Zach Wheeler.

34:30

I thought Zach Wheeler was the next Jake de Gram

34:32

in the making when I saw them both with the

34:34

Mets. It's almost like you put that the

34:37

ball, And I said, a conveyor belt was so easy that

34:39

we just drop it on and we'll just go wham to

34:41

home plate. But having said

34:43

all that, it looks easy, it appears

34:45

to be easy, but who knows what it feels

34:47

like internally? I'm not sure. I mean,

34:50

some guys are just more fluid athletes

34:52

than others. The bumping grinders

34:54

of the world, like myself. You could

34:56

see when I'm applying effort, But guys

34:58

like the Grom or Wheeler you do

35:00

not. Or let's go golf, Freddie Couples. I

35:02

mean, here's a guy that you watch

35:05

that screen. Oh my god, how does he hit

35:07

the ball that far? Whatever? But I guess

35:09

this clubhead speed at the bottom was extraordinary,

35:12

and of course he repeated it all the time. But he

35:14

did it easily. Any athlete

35:17

that you watch and he performs in a manner

35:19

that looks like he's doing it easily could

35:21

be frustrating to those of us who do not,

35:23

but that does not mean that there's not more

35:25

effort involved than we actually think there is. So

35:29

and with the grum, I'm not sure you probably know better. Does

35:31

his arm go behind him at all? With the elbow

35:33

and stuff. I haven't really seen a slow down picture

35:35

of him, because even if you have an easy

35:37

method, that doesn't mean you know, according

35:40

to everything we've been talking about that really

35:43

highlights injuries or is involved in injuries.

35:45

I don't really have a great picture of what his arm

35:47

looks like behind him, So anyway,

35:50

it is easy, But is it easy to him

35:53

internally? I don't know, And I know

35:55

you know a guy like Freddie Couples is that injuries over

35:57

his career also, and who does it more easily

35:59

than him, So it's hard to determine

36:02

effort level just by watching it.

36:04

It's a great point.

36:05

And as long as we're going to finish

36:07

up here, and we had Greg Maddox here, who's playing

36:09

at the Invited Celebrity Classic in

36:11

Las Colinas this week, let's

36:14

talk about golf.

36:15

You brought it up, Joe, and I'm

36:17

in watching Masters.

36:19

You know, it was great to see a guy

36:22

like Scotti Scheffler,

36:24

best player in the world, who's got a swing

36:26

nobody would teach. It's not an analytical

36:28

swing, right, I mean the shuffling

36:31

in the feet. He was

36:33

lucky enough to find a good coach when he's six

36:35

or seven years old and had the same swing. That's the

36:37

way his body moves. You watch someone

36:39

like Max Homa, there's very little

36:41

effort in his swing, and then

36:44

you watch someone like Bryson Deshambo with

36:46

a ton of effort in the swing. So,

36:49

Joe, I know you talk about this a lot, but there's

36:52

not a cookie cutter way to succeed.

36:54

And I think what we all try to do is find

36:57

the best version of ourselves. And

37:00

that mostly means you're not mimicking something,

37:02

you're not chasing a tempt, You're finding

37:04

the best version of yourself and how your body moves.

37:07

That's what I when I hear good mechanics.

37:10

What does that mean? I always said that, what does

37:12

that mean? I mean, I think there's indigenous

37:15

components to every

37:17

body movement regards to hitting a golf ball,

37:19

throwing a baseball, hitting a baseball.

37:23

What I often talked about as a hitter when as

37:25

a hitting coach, I wanted all

37:27

my hitters to look the same at the point of contact.

37:29

Okay, how they got there didn't matter to me, but

37:32

they had to look pretty much the

37:34

same at the point of contact. And I

37:36

always classify that, categorize

37:39

that with a and above average

37:41

velocity fastball. You know, a lot of guys

37:43

can get there against below average velocity,

37:45

but I wanted guys to get there against

37:47

plus velocity. And if I

37:49

took a snapshot, regardless if they were Julio

37:51

Franco, Paul Malatar,

37:54

Carl Yastremski, all these different dudes

37:56

that look different when

37:58

they're in the batter's box. George Henrick, the

38:01

close stance they all look pretty much

38:03

the same at the point contact against

38:05

plus velocity, So how

38:07

do you describe your mechanics For me? As a hitting coach,

38:09

I thought it was my job to look

38:12

at somebody and if

38:14

to chase him as little as possible. The

38:16

way their body works is the way their body works. From

38:19

there, I wanted to try to help them understand

38:22

how to get to that point of contact

38:25

on time against plus velocity,

38:27

utilizing how their bodies move for the last ten

38:29

years. So when I hear about mechanics,

38:32

I get confused sometimes because does that mean

38:34

you retool the way a guy

38:37

throws to your sensibilities of

38:39

how it's supposed to look, or do you

38:41

take the way he has done it for years

38:43

and incorporate thoughts into

38:45

this movement that dan permits him

38:48

to throw more on time, be in

38:50

that position that I want everybody to look like at

38:52

the point of release by a couple

38:54

little tweaks here and there. So that's

38:57

how I did my hitters. That was the That's

38:59

how I work with all my

39:01

hitters. Rarely example, Jimmy Edmonds

39:03

just texted me yesterday day before I'm

39:05

riding a bike. He sent me videos of his kid

39:08

as a hitter, and it was something he wanted to break down with

39:10

his kid, and he wanted to know.

39:11

What I thought.

39:12

So I went all the way back to Jim Edmonds talking

39:15

to him about what we talked about when he was in Vancouver.

39:17

I don't even know what year it was, but it's

39:20

take Jim. Jimmy Edmonds's body was

39:22

slightly different than his son's body the way they set

39:25

up, but there's a lot of similarities, man. So

39:27

my advice is to not necessarily change

39:30

a lot of that. You find the one key

39:32

element, the one key element that unlocks

39:34

and makes the other four or five things you

39:37

don't like work properly. Next

39:39

in the unison. So long

39:42

answer, but that's where I get hung

39:44

up when I hear about mechanics. What does it mean?

39:46

Are you changing the way an armstroke

39:48

works to satisfy your

39:51

sensibilities with this or are you taking

39:53

the way a young man's body in arm works

39:55

and then attempt to clean

39:57

it up in a sense to the point where he gets

39:59

the most out of it. And then I think

40:01

that's the best way to avoid injury.

40:04

Well said Joe, And I'm going

40:06

to have one final word on the Masters and

40:08

I want your take on it because I'm watching the Masters

40:10

and at one point I know there's a four way tie for the

40:12

lead, and watching

40:14

it, I just knew Scotty Scheffler

40:17

is going to win.

40:17

He's the best player in the world.

40:19

And what I see from Scotty Scheffler, he

40:21

controls the golf ball so

40:23

much better than everybody else. You

40:25

know, he's never if he's offline,

40:28

he's offline by a little. He doesn't

40:30

miss spots by a lot, so he

40:33

doesn't have the blow up holes that we saw in the

40:35

back nine and Augusta from the

40:37

people chasing him. So I

40:39

think he's in a tree right now, Joe. I think

40:41

he can continue to dominate the game for a long time.

40:43

I love his approach. You know, he's this

40:45

god fearing, humble guy from

40:47

Texas, actually boarded.

40:49

New Jersey, moved there as a kid, got to throw.

40:51

Jersey in there, but

40:53

as consistent a person, and

40:56

he brings it to the golf course.

40:57

I would love to see videos

41:00

of him speaking Toto Golf Club when he was ten, and

41:04

that a lot of that stuff that he does now

41:06

was apparent when he was ten. If

41:09

some brilliant instructor got

41:11

up, came up to him and said, Scott, he's Scotty,

41:13

what are you doing. You can't slide your feet around

41:15

like that. You can't. We got to get your

41:17

feet on the ground. We got to get it better, base,

41:19

different kind of it, whatever turn, you

41:22

just can't do that. Same if somebody had gotten

41:24

up to stand musual and said Stanley Stashu that

41:26

Pikaboo stands, it's not gonna work. We got

41:28

to straighten you out. So that's to me.

41:31

I learned that from bab Aloo Bob Clear as

41:33

a young hitting instructor. He really set

41:35

me straight on that. And even when you talk

41:37

about Troy Percival, the first time we threw him in

41:39

the bullpen at Uatry Park, Percy

41:41

went out there and he get out in the mound.

41:43

He's ready to throw, and Bobb Alou said, says,

41:46

nobody say anything to

41:48

him. Percy wind up and throw the ball

41:50

to home plate. And that's how his body

41:52

worked, and that's how he became successful, even

41:54

though everybody said he was going to blow out

41:56

a long time before it ever happened. So

41:58

sometimes we get too smart, man, that's part of

42:00

my problem.

42:01

Yeah, you bring me back to one of my favorite lines.

42:03

I believe more players I'm talking about amateurs

42:06

mostly have been ruined by over coaching

42:09

than under coaching. That

42:11

being said, I want to

42:13

line from you, Joe, bring us to the close

42:15

here with a game

42:17

that started with Greg MANNIX is going to end with

42:20

Joe Madden closing for us here?

42:21

What do you got Ooh that sucks? It'll

42:23

screw it up on him. I

42:25

got to read this slowly because this is like something

42:28

I read, and I switched it around a little bit

42:30

as it pertains to what happened today

42:32

or talking to Greg. Creativity

42:35

is bound up in our ability to find

42:38

new ways around old

42:40

problems. Creativities bound

42:43

up in our ability to find new ways

42:45

around old problems. I think creativity

42:48

should be bound up in our ability to find old

42:51

ways around new problems. That's

42:53

not what happens. We're always looking for new ways

42:55

around problems. We're maybe tried and

42:58

true is okay? Why do

43:00

we? And again that's where I have an issue with the term

43:02

progressiveness. We could

43:04

have like progress moving negative terms

43:06

too that nobody it's called regression.

43:09

And so I took that

43:11

today and I want to switch it around from

43:13

new ways around old problems to old ways

43:15

around new problems and see if we could

43:17

find some substance in that. And again it's

43:19

about balance and morphing things together

43:22

however you want to describe it. But I thought that

43:24

was really cool when I read that, and

43:27

I thought it need to be switched. I mean, you talk about

43:30

Greg and pitching in general and what's

43:32

going on. I think old

43:35

ways could really help out with these new problems.

43:38

That really fits the theme of this show for today,

43:40

our episode with Greg Mannox. I mean, you

43:43

know, no matter how much you've been raised on analytics

43:45

and track Man and drive Line,

43:48

why wouldn't you listen to Greg Mannox, I

43:51

mean the wisdom he has on the art

43:53

of pitching and staying healthy.

43:55

Yeah, you want to call that old school.

43:57

I just know that that's someone who has a lot of wisdom

44:00

that I can learn from.

44:02

Can I agree with you more? Listen? And analytics

44:04

wonderful? And I finally think,

44:06

I don't know if I told you this, and I tryally kind of

44:08

figured out a bit of where I was coming from with all

44:11

this. Yes, we always wanted

44:13

information and that as an old school manager,

44:15

as a new school manager, show me where my

44:17

defense is supposed to play. How am I supposed to pitch the Pomberducci?

44:20

What is this pitcher possibly going to throw? Yes, I want

44:22

all the information. We've always done that.

44:25

People act as though it's new. It's just being

44:27

able to be categorized differently. In every pitch

44:29

is being tracked regarding defense

44:31

or how to pitch, et cetera. So that's the difference.

44:34

It's the glad of information which is

44:36

great, and also the exactness of it, which

44:38

before was up to us from

44:41

advance scouts pitch him highway

44:44

up, up and in, down and away. Almost everybody

44:46

had the same thought

44:49

process. And when it came to pitchers

44:51

pitching the other team, I thought about

44:53

this earlier charting like Maddocks

44:56

with charged for Smoltz the day before he pitched

44:58

nobody charts anymore, which I really think would be an interesting

45:00

way to get these guys back involved

45:02

and understanding exactly what's going

45:05

on. So there is that, and you

45:07

want that, And when I'm an acquired Tom producer,

45:09

I want to know everything about him. But in

45:11

the moment that is big, large

45:13

sample size, in the small sample sized

45:15

moment in this at seven

45:19

point fifty two on a Thursday night in

45:21

June, I need to react to the situation,

45:24

and that's her experience and wisdom, et cetera comes

45:26

into play. So that is

45:28

the small sample size that is called the

45:30

moment, and the moment changes constantly.

45:33

Count you look at the scoreward count number of outs,

45:35

whereas the wind blowing, who's hot,

45:37

who's not? All this stuff. So I

45:39

don't know that we've totally described.

45:42

And people understand where the

45:44

data and information is important, and we all

45:47

believe in it. But what's not always believed in

45:49

is the wisdom and the intelligence, the feel

45:52

for whomever is running this thing in the dugout

45:54

and how important that actually is. So that

45:57

came to me more recently, and I think it's

45:59

pretty accurate.

46:00

Our thanks to the always fascinating,

46:03

always interesting Greg Maddox for joining

46:05

us on this edition of the Book

46:07

of Joe, and thanks to you Joe

46:09

for, as you always do, taking us home.

46:11

Thanks Tommy, great to see you, buddy.

46:23

The Book of Joe podcast is a production

46:25

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46:27

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