0:01

Listen to supported

0:04

WNYC studios. Good

0:31

morning, everyone. Now

0:47

a deep dive into egg freezing.

0:49

A thoroughly researched piece in Vox

0:52

explores what its headline deems the

0:55

failed promise of egg freezing.

0:57

It's also the headline, the failed promise

0:59

of egg freezing. Once hailed as a

1:01

means for women to take control of

1:03

their fertility and usher in a new

1:05

gender, a new era, I should say,

1:07

of gender parity, the reality has proven

1:09

more complicated. The piece in Vox comes

1:12

to us from senior correspondent Anna North.

1:14

She writes that though many patients

1:16

express a sense of relief after

1:18

making the decision to freeze their

1:20

eggs, for many years there

1:23

wasn't enough data because not enough people

1:25

had undergone the procedure to

1:27

know how well it was working out

1:29

in the long run. Now however, Anna

1:31

writes, a new picture is emerging. So

1:33

in one important study conducted in 2022

1:36

at the NYU Langone

1:38

Fertility Center, the chance of a

1:40

live birth from frozen eggs was

1:43

just 39%, so way under half. What's

1:46

more, Anna writes, far from ushering in

1:48

a new era of gender equality. Some

1:51

experts say the procedure serves as

1:53

another way for companies to make

1:55

money from stoking women's anxieties. Let's

1:57

hear more now from Anna North.

2:00

Senior correspondent at Vox. Hi Anna, welcome

2:02

to WNYC. Glad you could join us.

2:05

Hi, thanks so much for having me. And

2:07

listeners, we'll invite your calls

2:09

with your stories right away.

2:11

212-433-WNYC, help Anna North report

2:13

this story or share your

2:15

experiences of egg freezing. Was

2:17

it successful? Did it give

2:19

you a sense of control

2:21

over your life or career?

2:24

Was it a stoking of anxieties, as I

2:26

referred to a minute ago, that some experts

2:28

say that led you to do it in

2:30

the first place? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text.

2:42

So Anna, let's go back to the beginning

2:44

of the era. When did egg freezing technology

2:46

come in? And what were

2:48

the initial promises and expectations? Yeah,

2:51

so the first successful birth that

2:53

we know of from frozen eggs

2:56

were actually twins, born all the

2:58

way back in 1986. Things didn't

3:00

really take off until the 90s

3:03

and then not even really, really

3:05

until 2012, which is when the

3:07

American Society for Reproductive Medicine says

3:10

this is no longer an experimental technology.

3:12

So it's saying that, you

3:15

know, for a long time, egg freezing was something

3:17

that was used primarily for folks who were about

3:19

to undergo chemo, or who had other health

3:21

issues that were going to impact their fertility.

3:24

Beginning in 2012, it becomes more

3:26

and more common for people to freeze their

3:28

eggs simply because this isn't a good

3:30

time for them to have children or to try to

3:32

protect their fertility down the line. And

3:34

it becomes a real blockbuster kind of

3:36

treatment. I think one of the most

3:39

famous examples is the 2014 Bloomberg Businessweek

3:41

cover story that, you know, had this

3:43

really splashy cover line. It said, freeze

3:45

your eggs, free your career. So it's

3:48

going to kind of usher in this

3:50

incredible time for women in particular who

3:52

can sort of pause their biological clocks. So

3:55

this statistic that I cited 38,

3:57

39, percent

4:00

of egg freezings actually resulting in a

4:02

pregnancy. What is that a lot? Is

4:04

that a little? How do we understand

4:07

that number in context and what it

4:09

means? Yeah, it's

4:11

a great question. So every doctor,

4:13

every reproductive endocrinologist, every expert I

4:15

talk to, including folks who

4:17

their career is in some cases helping people

4:19

freeze eggs, they said it's so important to

4:22

know that freezing your eggs is not a

4:24

guarantee. So it can work. 39

4:26

percent, you know, it's not zero. Those

4:29

numbers go up if the person is younger

4:31

when they freeze their eggs. So if someone

4:33

is 30 and goes to freeze eggs, they're

4:35

going to have a better chance of having

4:37

a baby later on than certainly someone who's

4:39

40 and doesn't. The numbers also

4:41

go up the more eggs the person freezes.

4:43

So if you get a lot, then that's

4:45

basically more chances. But

4:48

you know that 39 percent figure, it's

4:50

you know, I think people can look

4:52

at that unreasonably say, oh you know

4:54

this is a chance, but it's

4:57

not by no means a certainty. And

4:59

your article says egg freezing has

5:01

not, quote, materially changed women's lives

5:04

as initially promised. Can you expand

5:06

on that and discuss the gap

5:08

between the hype and the reality?

5:11

Absolutely. So I think there was this thought at

5:13

the beginning, you know, in 2012, 2014 that this

5:15

is really going to be like the birth control

5:18

pill. It's going to change things for women in

5:20

terms of how they manage their reproductive lives in

5:22

all these ways. And that it's

5:24

going to, for example, allow them to kind

5:27

of like take time to climb the corporate ladder. So people

5:29

are going to freeze their eggs at a certain point, then

5:31

they're going to work, and then at sort

5:34

of a time of their choosing, they'll be

5:36

able to take that time and

5:38

have a child. That's not really how people

5:40

have used egg freezing. So it turns out

5:42

a number of sociologists and other experts have

5:44

talked to a lot of folks who have

5:46

frozen their eggs. In most cases,

5:48

these are people who haven't found the

5:51

partner that they want to have children

5:53

with. So they're freezing eggs in

5:55

the hopes that one day they might meet

5:57

that person. So it's not necessarily someone saying

5:59

it. You know I'm gonna. Really throw myself

6:01

into work and then when I'm forty and

6:04

I'm ready, I'm gonna have have a child.

6:06

It's more people who are frustrated saying like

6:08

I'm dating i'm not meaning that right person.

6:10

This egg freezing. As going to be sort

6:12

of an insurance policy and. You know

6:15

it. So. There's almost a sense of

6:17

like, what what has been freed here. I

6:19

don't think career doesn't to. Some degree enter into

6:21

it. Let's.

6:23

Hear somebody stories Sera in

6:25

Oakland, California on W and

6:27

more. See her so. High

6:31

by among timeless narrow. First time

6:33

caller on i am a Thirty

6:35

said are almost forty year old

6:37

woman and I showed my eggs

6:39

just as you're at reporter sad

6:41

for an insurance policy at thirty

6:43

seven before I met my husband

6:46

and then we went ahead. We

6:48

had eleven eggs which was an

6:50

ally obviously idea that by essentially

6:52

when I once saw them and

6:54

create the embryos at least five

6:56

of them disintegrated immediately and then

6:58

the west rest of that disintegrate.

7:01

Upon and seventy seven and they

7:03

said that this is an unusually

7:05

high attrition rate or whatever, but

7:07

it just kind of salt Lake

7:09

my dream machine away and the

7:11

insert coffee were questioned way and

7:13

I was still paying for those

7:15

eggs. I still owe like fifteen

7:18

hundred dollars for those eggs that

7:20

are now gone. So.

7:24

Does it leave you with advice for

7:26

other women one way or another? Yeah

7:30

I mean I was just like that just

7:32

like a reporter side where you not hadn't

7:35

met him he outside and know and I

7:37

would say we do it when you're younger

7:39

you know, like you have to if you're

7:41

gonna freeze them Friedman while you're younger. And

7:43

I just really encourage companies to also provide

7:46

plans and benefits that help women to do

7:48

that because it is a major issue now

7:50

like we don't know what we're gonna do

7:52

it. We want to start a family so.

7:55

I was. I would have thought about it sooner. Services you

7:57

so much for centers and good. Gifted.

8:00

We help people get you have any

8:02

other. Anecdotes: From

8:04

your reporting. Anna.

8:07

That. You. Know you might want to. Use.

8:09

One as an example. Sir

8:12

So am I Talk to someone and

8:14

name May May Sox I'm who has.

8:16

She has talked a lot about her

8:18

experience. And times see for us

8:20

or eggs actually. I'm that you

8:23

know, a long time ago analysts. So

8:25

I'm newer. I'm an was very excited

8:27

to be able to make this happen. For a

8:29

soft it was very expensive. It took about a

8:31

year to save up the money. On.

8:33

You know, but she felt like okay, you know

8:35

I've over cyrillic weight off my mind. Lot

8:37

of patience described as the ceiling of

8:40

okay I've done this thing for my

8:42

solves like it's a real it's a

8:44

rare release on then I'm in Er

8:46

seats Uma Thurman and she went back

8:48

to hopefully try to use those frozen

8:50

eggs and actually there was there was

8:52

a mistake or and accidents. I'm in

8:55

in the packing of the vials for

8:57

to transit and the eggs are essentially

8:59

destroyed. Fair unusable. So all that money

9:01

that she'd spans the you know, all

9:03

the injections, those things that she'd put

9:05

her body through which were not. Insignificant.

9:07

She had nothing to show for. And

9:09

she did. End up having children later on

9:12

on. thrive Yes, I'm so she was able

9:14

to have kind of the. Family that she

9:16

had hoped for an plan for, but that was a.

9:18

Lot more money out of pocket

9:20

arm and it wasn't in the

9:22

the insurance policy that she thought

9:24

that she had signed up for.

9:26

it didn't materialise it's it's than

9:28

that you mention idea of because

9:30

i bf seems so under attack

9:32

now by the anti abortion rights.

9:35

Movement. And people are

9:37

rallying around idea of and maybe

9:39

some listeners. the thinking wait why

9:42

right now and all kinds of

9:44

reproductive options are under attack will

9:46

come out with an article bassinet

9:48

reason. He I

9:51

definitely thought about this as I was as I was

9:53

reading the story was. I've been working on for a while

9:55

and as I started to wrap it up in a way of

9:57

course heard the news out of Alabama. but even

9:59

before that actually when I spoke with experts about

10:01

this, they would say, you know, with

10:04

all the concerns that we might have

10:06

about the cost or about whether people

10:08

are receiving the upfront information they need

10:10

about this procedure, we certainly don't

10:13

want it to be banned. You know, we don't want

10:15

people to have fewer reproductive choices in this country.

10:17

This is already, you know, even before what

10:19

we learned out of Alabama, obviously this has

10:21

been a time of curtailment

10:24

of reproductive choices. And that's

10:26

not what even I think the, you know,

10:28

starkest critics of egg freezing that I spoke to

10:31

want to see. Instead,

10:33

primarily what they'd like to see is

10:35

just better disclosure and better regulation around

10:38

what people are told. So that if they're going to pay $10,000,

10:40

$12,000 plus

10:43

hundreds of dollars a year in storage fees, they

10:45

have a better idea of what they're getting. 2-1-2-4-3-3,

10:48

WNYC and Elizabeth in Brooklyn, your

10:53

honor, WNYC. Hi, Elizabeth. Hi.

10:57

I'd like to ask what

10:59

the comparison is between the

11:02

natural way of conceiving babies

11:06

and the frozen eggs, because

11:08

as I understand it, my

11:11

mom told me when I was

11:13

younger, one-third of naturally occurring pregnancies

11:16

don't get beyond the first few months or

11:18

weeks. Is that true? I mean,

11:20

we got to compare life to

11:23

not life, I think. That's

11:25

a really great question. Do you know that stat? I

11:28

know I've heard things like that. So if only 38%

11:30

of the frozen eggs, you know, turn

11:35

into viable babies when they

11:38

try to use them for pregnancy, if

11:42

that's a similar number to

11:44

those that, you know, result

11:47

in early miscarriage, then

11:50

maybe it's not so bad. Yeah,

11:53

absolutely. So we know that the rates of miscarriage

11:58

very early in pregnancy are quite high. I think though that

12:00

the 39% the way to think about that is that someone

12:02

in this study, that

12:10

patient freezes their eggs, if

12:12

I'm interpreting it correctly, then at the end of the

12:15

study, their individual chance of having

12:17

a baby is around 39%. So

12:20

it's not like each individual egg has a 39% chance of becoming a

12:22

child, more that the

12:26

patient might have a 39% chance of

12:28

having a child through this procedure. The way

12:30

that something that was really illuminating that

12:33

the study author helped

12:36

me understand is that these

12:38

numbers are in line with IVF

12:40

success rates. So

12:42

for example, if you freeze your eggs at 35,

12:44

then you would basically have the same

12:49

chance later on when you go to use those

12:52

eggs, you'd have the same chance of having a

12:54

baby that you would if you were to undergo IVF

12:56

at 35. And

12:58

the thing about freezing your eggs that's positive is

13:00

if you have those frozen eggs at

13:03

35, then you're 40, you

13:05

kind of maintain that the

13:08

chance of a live birth of a 35-year-old. So

13:10

you're a little bit putting a pause on that

13:13

clock, but you're still

13:15

looking at those numbers, it's

13:18

still IVF numbers. So it's not like

13:20

you have the chance of becoming pregnant

13:22

that you would as a 20-year-old, trying

13:24

to conceive naturally. So it's complicated to

13:26

understand, right, because we're throwing so many

13:28

numbers around and there's all these different

13:30

ages. And I think that's why it's

13:32

extra, extra important that doctors or companies

13:34

or whoever is offering the services really sitting

13:36

down with people and saying, like, these

13:39

are your chances, these are your numbers, this

13:41

is what you can expect. Because otherwise, it

13:43

can be mind boggling. Aaron

13:45

in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Aaron.

13:49

Hi. I

13:52

was somebody who went through 12 miscarriages and

13:54

then at 39, ended up freezing

13:56

embryos. And

14:00

I was informed by my doctor at the time

14:02

that the chances of success with

14:04

an embryo is significantly higher than

14:06

an egg. And so I've even

14:08

had friends who have loosely

14:10

dated somebody, known them as a friend, and

14:13

asked to go ahead and make embryos with

14:15

them to increase their chances of having a

14:17

baby, knowing how poor the

14:20

rate is for just freezing eggs. And

14:22

I am constantly advocating to friends who

14:24

go through this to consider trying to

14:26

find a way to make an embryo

14:28

over an egg. And at 39, I mean

14:30

I'm 45 now, and I have

14:32

two babies from my one egg retrieval

14:35

that made

14:37

embryos. So, really,

14:40

it's helpful for me. Anna, first time you

14:42

heard something like that, I'll bet not. No,

14:44

congratulations, first of all, on your children. But

14:47

no, it's absolutely true that doctors

14:50

will also, and experts will also tell

14:52

you that embryos, it can be a

14:55

safer bet than freezing eggs. There's a

14:57

couple reasons for that. One is that

14:59

embryos just freeze a little better. Eggs

15:02

have really high water content. Embryos

15:04

much less so. And

15:06

then also, fertility clinics

15:08

do types of screening and

15:11

testing on embryos that it's

15:13

not possible to do on eggs, or it wouldn't

15:15

make sense to do on eggs. And in some

15:17

cases, that can give people a better idea of

15:19

whether the embryo is likely to lead to a

15:21

successful pregnancy. So if you have four embryos,

15:24

three embryos, you have your

15:26

doctors and can work with you to give you,

15:28

I think, a better idea of what you might

15:30

end up with than if you had a number

15:32

of eggs. So this is

15:35

absolutely something more patients are considering. Anecdotally, I've

15:37

heard that more doctors are talking to patients

15:39

about it. And it even showed up on

15:41

the show Succession, where I

15:43

believe it's the character Shiv says that she heard

15:45

that embryos freeze better or last longer than eggs.

15:48

So it's something that's entered pop culture as well.

15:51

Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're

15:53

talking to Anna North, senior correspondent for

15:55

Vox, where she covers American family life,

15:57

work and education, talking about her story,

16:00

the failed promise of egg freezing.

16:02

We can take some more phone

16:04

calls and text. The texts are

16:06

really coming in, 212-433-WNYC. About half

16:08

of them are asking the same

16:10

question, which we will get to

16:12

in a minute. But let me

16:14

read you this one, Anna. Listener

16:17

writes, I froze 35 eggs,

16:19

the result of four stimulation

16:22

and retrieval cycles in my late 30s. This

16:25

eventually resulted in two genetically normal

16:27

embryos, neither of which implanted on

16:29

transfer to my uterus,

16:32

$70,000 down the drain. Then

16:35

the listener writes, if I was a man, that might have gone

16:37

into a 401K, not to mention

16:39

the unspeakable devastation and grief. For

16:41

the industry to call it fertility

16:43

preservation is really a misnomer that

16:45

gives women false hope. In Europe,

16:47

they seem to use the term

16:49

social freezing, which at least does

16:51

not make a false promise. What

16:53

do you think, listening to that?

16:57

Yeah, so first of all, thank you

16:59

for sharing that experience. It can be

17:01

so devastating to go through this process.

17:03

I think something that folks talk about

17:05

that's really important to acknowledge is just

17:07

the sort of emotional toll. People

17:10

face that emotional toll in all different ways of

17:13

trying to build a family. Excuse me, but there

17:15

is this really intense emotional

17:17

toll of going through these medical

17:20

procedures, hoping it's going to work, wondering if it's

17:22

going to work. Then when it

17:24

doesn't work, that disappointment and devastation,

17:26

so that is so real. I

17:28

think too that's something that the

17:31

listener brings up is the

17:33

way in which we see these

17:36

numbers sort of fall off. A

17:38

patient can get a large number of eggs and

17:40

feel really good, then only a

17:42

few of them fertilize, and then are

17:44

those embryos genetically normal according to the

17:46

tests and then to those implant. There

17:49

are just so many sort of

17:51

stations of inexactitude

17:53

and ways that

17:55

things can go wrong. Of course, that's true when

17:58

you're trying to conceive without assisted reproductive

18:00

technology as well, but the difference is it

18:02

doesn't cost as much money. Another

18:05

story from Samantha in Queens. You're

18:07

on WNYC. Hi, Samantha. Hi, Brian. I'm

18:11

Tran Yousef.

18:15

My story is probably

18:18

typical-ish. In 2015, I

18:21

was 37, and I

18:24

froze my eggs after my

18:26

doctor really highly recommending. My,

18:29

again, relationship was in finding the person

18:31

to have a child with, and

18:34

only got nine eggs, six of which

18:36

were viable. And

18:39

no one sat me down at that time

18:41

really to have a conversation to say, hey,

18:43

you know, you probably need to deal with

18:45

this immediately because that's not a lot to

18:47

get in one retrieval.

18:52

And that conversation didn't happen at the time.

18:54

I actually had health insurance like coverage retrievals.

18:57

So I just went on my merry way and

19:00

then started trying at 42, and none of the eggs, I

19:02

think I

19:08

had one embryo and it did not take. And

19:11

then I went on another, you know, it took

19:13

another eight years to have a child using

19:15

an egg donor. And

19:17

it was a really hard, long, very expensive

19:19

journey. I have a lot of loss. And

19:24

it's just very

19:26

frustrating to have these unrealistic expectations,

19:28

I think. I'm sure some

19:30

of it is what I maybe

19:33

assumed. But

19:36

I just find that the education, I

19:39

learned so much along the way and

19:41

mostly from support from other people going

19:43

through the same journey versus the actual

19:45

providers. Any

19:48

advice after your experience to

19:50

women considering egg freezing? Yeah. I

19:55

mean, I think it's really important to

19:58

go to your office. really

20:00

educate ourselves and even joining support

20:02

groups where you're going to actually

20:04

meet other people with real stories,

20:06

not just those outlier

20:09

success stories that give you so much

20:11

hope, which are important. It's important to

20:13

have the hope, and

20:16

to have the support and be able to really

20:18

feel like encouraged

20:21

to advocate for oneself. Often

20:24

we just think doctors, they'll tell

20:26

us if there's something we should know,

20:28

and that's not necessarily the case often. And

20:32

so I think really connecting to other

20:34

people in this journey can

20:36

be really helpful. Samantha, thank you

20:38

for connecting to other people, considering

20:41

the journey. And Rachel in Brooklyn,

20:43

you're on WNYC. Hi, Rachel. Rachel

20:45

in Brooklyn, you there? Oh,

20:48

wait. This is me. Hi. Yes.

20:52

And so, yeah, my name's Rachel. I just wanted

20:54

to say that I got

20:57

very deep into this journey of

20:59

considering getting my eggs frozen

21:02

between the ages of 39 and 42. So

21:05

those are like the twilight years of

21:08

fertility, according to the clinics.

21:11

For me, I was shocked to learn

21:14

that because in my younger years, I

21:16

didn't realize how fertile you are in

21:18

your 20s compared to your late 30s.

21:21

So I was like deluded into thinking that I had

21:23

lots of time when I was younger. And

21:26

then once I started consulting in my

21:28

late 30s, I like got this message

21:30

that like the chances are very poor.

21:33

And I almost froze them, even though I

21:35

was informed of that by the clinics, because

21:37

I think like what you end

21:39

up, what lots of people end up in probably

21:41

is almost like a gambling mentality where you're like,

21:44

okay, like this might be my

21:46

only chance to have like a

21:48

genetic child. So how much

21:50

is that worth, right? And even if

21:52

it's like a 10% chance, how much is that

21:55

worth? Is it 5% chance? How

21:57

much is that worth? And so you kind

21:59

of like get in into this way of thinking about

22:01

it, because you feel like you

22:03

have no other options, right? And

22:05

in the end, I actually decided not

22:07

to freeze them because I

22:10

felt like if I had done that, I would

22:12

have been diluted even further into

22:14

thinking that I had still a chance and

22:19

that notion being in the back of

22:21

my mind would

22:23

affect my relationships with being

22:25

a prospective partner, the

22:28

way that notion had affected my relationship when

22:30

I was younger, you know? Rachel,

22:32

let me ask you, let me read

22:34

to you a text that's coming in

22:36

from another listener that's

22:39

hearing your story, other stories like

22:41

these, and cringing, and get

22:44

your take, and Anna will

22:46

ask for yours too as the writer

22:48

of the article. Listener writes, I hate

22:50

conversations like these because they take away

22:53

the hope that so many of us

22:55

mid-30s women have. Freezing eggs is better

22:57

than nothing. I find these conversations to

22:59

play again on our feelings of inadequacy

23:02

and stress. I'm so grateful to have

23:04

the option at the very least. Let us

23:06

have our hope, please. What are you thinking,

23:08

Rachel, as you hear that from another listener?

23:12

I definitely felt the same way. I mean,

23:14

I almost froze my eggs at age 42

23:17

for that same reason because I just wanted that

23:20

hope so badly. But I also didn't,

23:22

I just knew that like, because my

23:25

main reason was because I wasn't finding

23:27

a partner, right? So I

23:30

knew that having that in the back of

23:32

my mind, oh, I have more time because

23:34

I have some frozen eggs in the bank

23:36

somewhere. I knew that that would affect my

23:38

sex life, my relationship life. And

23:40

I didn't want that to be playing out

23:42

anymore. And I decided to just face like

23:45

the mortality of my fertility head

23:47

on and hope for the

23:49

best with a surprise pregnancy without

23:52

hope. Rachel, thank you very

23:55

much. And Anna, that same listener

23:57

who texted, texted again.

24:00

and continued stories like these

24:02

create so much fear and

24:04

take away the little agency we

24:07

have over our reproductive health currently

24:09

allow us our agency, your

24:12

reaction? Yeah, absolutely, that's

24:14

super real. You know, I think

24:17

that the need for, to

24:19

like feel some control over a part of our

24:21

lives that, you know, and I'm someone who had

24:24

children in my late 30s. I

24:27

was 39 with my second kid. So like, I

24:29

am familiar with these feelings and with the numbers

24:31

and the way the doctors will talk to you. So

24:34

I really understand, you

24:37

know, in truth, the way that egg freezing

24:39

can provide hope and also provide success for

24:41

some people. One thing

24:43

I want to highlight is that people who

24:46

end up going through egg freezing often like

24:48

feel good about it. So after

24:50

the procedure, one researcher that I spoke with said that

24:52

more than 90% of women had

24:54

something positive to say. So

24:56

I don't want to paint it like it's this

24:58

completely negative thing for people's lives. And

25:01

I think this, you know, this listener is hitting

25:04

on something really important. I think the other

25:06

thing that I would say here that really came home

25:08

to me as I was reporting this story was

25:11

feeling like how much of the

25:14

sort of cultural weight and the

25:16

responsibility for reproduction and creating families

25:18

in the United States still rests

25:20

on the shoulders really of women.

25:24

You know, the people who are

25:27

lectured to about their fertility who

25:29

are sort of expected to be the ones

25:31

who figured this out about having a family,

25:33

the ones who have to figure out

25:36

egg freezing, you know, spend this money and

25:38

do this stuff, it's so often women. And

25:41

some of that has to do with the

25:43

way that human reproduction works. But

25:45

some of it also has to do with the

25:47

way that as a culture, I think the United

25:49

States still just feels like women are in charge

25:51

of families and are in charge of children. And

25:55

that is a bigger problem and a

25:57

bigger issue that I don't think

25:59

technology... can really resolve and it's something that

26:01

we are going to need to have social change for. Last

26:04

question, and you touched on this briefly, but I

26:06

said about half the text we were getting as

26:09

some version of this question. I'll read

26:12

the shortest one that came in from

26:14

Lauren in Atlanta. Please talk about the

26:16

cost. It is expensive. And

26:18

so the question becomes, is it

26:20

equally accessible or is this another divider

26:23

between rich and poor in our society? 100%.

26:27

It's so expensive. So it

26:29

runs about $10,000 per cycle. There's some

26:31

wiggle room within that. Some places it's

26:34

a little bit less. There's also storage

26:36

fees. Those run in the hundreds per

26:38

year and it doesn't end. As long

26:40

as you want to store, you got

26:43

to pay. Now some employers are starting

26:45

to offer insurance coverage. That's something that

26:48

I think was touched on in the

26:50

conversation. A lot of experts I talked

26:52

to said, even though this procedure isn't

26:54

perfect, it's something that employers should think

26:56

about covering because that would level the

26:58

playing field. Right now, the majority

27:00

of people who are able to

27:02

freeze their eggs are people with

27:05

a significant amount of money. They're

27:07

typically professional women. They are typically

27:09

white. There's a

27:11

big racial gap in terms of egg freezing

27:13

as there isn't a racial gap in fertility

27:16

treatments more generally for a variety of

27:18

reasons. So yes, this

27:20

is an incredibly expensive procedure. That's one of the reasons

27:22

I think that we decided to look at it because

27:24

it's something that people are really investing not just

27:27

their time but a lot of money

27:30

in. I think for a lot

27:32

of folks, if this were able

27:34

to be a bit more accessible

27:36

and a bit cheaper for the

27:38

patient, then I think it would take some

27:41

of the controversy away. Anna North,

27:43

senior correspondent for Vox, where she

27:45

covers American family life, work, and

27:47

education, her story, The Failed Promise

27:49

of Egg Freezing. Thank you so

27:51

much for sharing it with us.

27:54

Thank you. This

27:57

is The Brian Leo Show. Good

28:00

morning again everyone. With

28:03

us now, the veteran Democratic Party organizer

28:05

based here in New York, Luis Miranda,

28:07

who has written a memoir called Relentless.

28:10

As a behind the scenes guy who

28:12

hasn't run for office himself, he's not

28:14

a household name, but his

28:16

son is Lin-Manuel Miranda, who also wrote the

28:18

forward to the book. We'll talk about that

28:21

a little bit. And Luis

28:23

writes about him. Luis Miranda's

28:25

New York story starts with a

28:27

decision to study psychology at NYU

28:29

rather than law in Puerto Rico

28:32

we grew up, and we'll take

28:34

it from there with him. The full

28:36

title of the book is Relentless, My

28:38

Story of the Latino Spirit That is

28:40

Transforming America. Luis, thanks for coming on.

28:42

Welcome back to WNYC. It

28:44

is a pleasure to be here with you, Brian.

28:46

It has been a long time. Indeed. Let's

28:49

just get some of your biography on the table

28:51

here, and then we'll talk about some of the

28:53

issues as we go, including up

28:55

to the minute the so-called Latino vote in the 2024

28:58

election, and why there seems to be a decent

29:00

amount of support for Trump in various

29:03

Latino communities, even though he

29:05

would just as soon deport everybody. So

29:07

where were you born, and where did

29:09

you grow up? I

29:11

was born in a small town in Puerto

29:14

Rico, Beguelta. I

29:17

then went to the University of

29:19

Puerto Rico where I finished my

29:21

BA, and was recruited by

29:25

the clinical psych PhD

29:27

program at NYU, and

29:30

came to New York having just turned 20. We'll

29:33

get to you in New York having just

29:35

turned 20 in NYU, but what was it

29:38

like in the place

29:40

you grew up? Is there a short

29:42

version of what kind of childhood you

29:44

feel like you had, or a picture

29:46

you could paint for our listeners who've

29:48

never been there? Absolutely. Imagine a

29:50

small town of

29:53

six streets. We continue to have

29:55

six streets. We have grown in

29:57

other parts, but the actual town.

29:59

where we lived with

30:02

six streets. I went

30:04

to the public schools in my

30:06

town from elementary to

30:08

high school. It's a

30:10

place where everyone knows everyone.

30:13

My dad was

30:16

the manager of the local credit union.

30:19

So we knew everybody's

30:22

economics business

30:25

and family situation. My mother

30:27

owned the travel agency. So

30:29

we knew all the ins

30:31

and outs of everyone who

30:33

was leaving the town and

30:36

visiting any place, mostly

30:39

New York and

30:41

Florida. So it's

30:44

a small town. So when I

30:46

came to New York, trying

30:49

to recreate that

30:51

place that I'm sure I

30:55

make much

30:57

better than it was. A

31:00

place where people knew each

31:02

other, where people helped each

31:04

other, where people gossip and

31:06

fought with each other. It's

31:09

the hallmark of what I wanted

31:11

in a neighborhood in New York.

31:14

It's what migrants, and I won't

31:16

say immigrants because you're from Puerto Rico, you're

31:18

a US citizen to begin with, but

31:21

I think it's what immigrants and

31:23

other migrants do in

31:25

New York and lots of other places. If

31:28

you come from a smaller town and

31:30

suddenly you're in this megalopolis New

31:33

York City, you connect with

31:35

other people who are from

31:37

there, if you can, if

31:39

there is such a community at first, and

31:41

you recreate a little community before you can

31:43

jump in to the problems and

31:45

the issues and the lives of

31:48

the bigger community. Does that make

31:50

sense to you? Totally makes sense,

31:52

but the beauty of New York,

31:54

it's that even though we're an

31:56

eight and a half million people

31:59

place, are neighborhoods.

32:01

When I came to New

32:03

York, I lived in Chelsea

32:05

and at that point, Chelsea

32:07

was majority Puerto Rican. It

32:10

felt like a neighborhood. Then

32:13

we moved to NYU because

32:15

we were students at NYU

32:18

and the village felt like

32:21

a little community. And then

32:23

the last 42 years, we

32:26

have been in Washington Heights, which

32:29

is another community. So it

32:32

doesn't matter how big this

32:34

city is. You could

32:37

find happiness in your little

32:39

part of the world while

32:42

you venture to the larger

32:44

space. Great thought. So it's

32:46

1974, exactly 50 years ago,

32:49

and you're thinking of

32:51

what? Going to law school in Puerto

32:53

Rico versus grad school in psychology? No,

32:55

that ship had sailed.

32:59

When I came to New York,

33:01

there was no more law in

33:03

Puerto Rico. It was

33:05

clinical psychology at NYU.

33:08

On the one hand, my desire

33:10

to be a clinical psychologist. On

33:13

the other hand, my

33:16

want forever to

33:18

come to New York.

33:21

I remember as a kid,

33:23

people don't remember what postcards

33:26

looked like, but

33:28

I grew up with postcards

33:30

of New York and

33:32

the iconic Empire State Building

33:35

for me was this unbelievable

33:40

place that I wanted to be

33:42

part of. So how

33:44

did psychology lead to politics? Because

33:48

I realized that my

33:51

call was not clinical

33:54

psychologists. I was

33:57

fortunate that

33:59

enough professors told me

34:02

that clinical psychology, at least

34:04

not the way, was

34:06

being taught at NYU was

34:08

my call because they

34:11

said that I always tried to

34:13

rush quote-unquote the

34:15

therapeutic relationship. If

34:18

I was with someone and for

34:20

three damn weeks we have been

34:22

discussing the first thing that meant

34:25

I wanted the fourth week to be

34:28

somewhere else and my

34:30

professors kept telling me clients,

34:33

patients moved at their own

34:35

pace, not at the pace

34:38

you set for them. I'm saying this

34:41

is not for me. I understand. So

34:43

in contrast to that, you can solve

34:45

all the political problems in just three

34:47

weeks, right? Absolutely.

34:51

But you are doing so

34:53

many things at the same

34:55

time. You are dealing with

34:57

so many characters and so

34:59

many issues that it

35:01

felt on the one hand

35:03

that I didn't have to go person

35:06

by person to make the

35:08

city better, but that I

35:10

could work with systems and

35:13

groups of people to make

35:15

the city better. Before

35:18

we get into your first contact with

35:20

the New York City mayor and then

35:22

your relationship with various of

35:25

them, I just want to read one thing

35:27

as kind of a side light

35:29

from the forward to

35:31

your book by your son Lin-Manuel

35:34

Miranda and he writes, in his

35:36

typical overachieving fashion, Luis has really

35:38

written three books. There's

35:41

his life story as improbable

35:43

as that of his favorite

35:45

character, Debbie Reynolds' Unsinkable Molly

35:47

Brown. I'm going to stop

35:49

right there. Unsinkable Molly Brown

35:51

was your favorite character. Yeah.

35:54

Have you seen the Unsinkable Molly Brown?

35:56

You know, I don't think I ever

35:58

actually. Oh my God. you're so

36:00

deprived of wonderful things. You

36:04

got to go and see it. In

36:06

fact, for my 60th birthday, I rented

36:09

a theater. They didn't tell anybody. They

36:12

thought they were coming to a party,

36:14

and in fact, they were coming to

36:16

see the Unsinkable Mahler Brown, because too

36:19

often, I heard what you just told

36:21

me. I don't think I have seen

36:23

it. The Unsinkable Mahler

36:25

Brown, it's the lady,

36:28

minuscule character in our

36:30

history. But she

36:33

was relentless, and she knew there was

36:35

a life beyond

36:38

the little place where she was,

36:41

and she found it. I

36:43

always identified with that spirit

36:45

of trying to figure out

36:47

what's bigger and what can

36:49

you do in that bigger

36:51

stage. Luis Miranda,

36:53

if you're just joining us, is

36:56

our guest. His new memoir

36:58

is called Relentless, My Story

37:00

of the Latino Spirit that

37:02

is Transforming America, and

37:05

listeners, Puerto Rican listeners, or

37:07

anyone else who has a question or

37:09

story for Luis Miranda at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

37:19

It's New York City politics, New York

37:21

City history, Puerto Rican and other

37:24

New York City politics and history, the mayors of

37:26

the last 50 years. If

37:31

you're a musical theater writing son

37:33

of Luis, you can call in or

37:35

anyone else, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

37:44

So what was your first real contact with the New

37:46

York City mayor? It

37:48

was really with a college.

37:53

Like any migrant or

37:55

immigrant coming into the

37:57

United States, it takes

38:00

a while to get your bearings.

38:04

People used to tell me, and I

38:06

say that in the book, in Relentless,

38:09

people used to tell me, oh, now that

38:11

so many Puerto Ricans moved to

38:14

New York after Maria, we need

38:16

to get them to vote. And

38:18

I always said, we need to

38:20

first try to help them figure

38:22

out where their kids are going

38:24

to school. So

38:26

it's always- After Hurricane

38:28

Maria. Yeah, it's always

38:30

a bumpy road when

38:32

you go to a

38:34

new place. And

38:37

it took me a while. I was

38:39

involved. I worked in the

38:41

city. I worked for nonprofits.

38:45

And it was friends

38:47

who said the

38:50

special advisor for Hispanic Affairs

38:52

job has opened up. Why

38:55

don't you apply? And I

38:59

did. And went

39:02

to an interview with

39:06

late Mayor It Koch.

39:08

The interview was actually delayed

39:11

three weeks because I

39:13

got measles or ooh, ooh, as

39:16

a 30-year-old man. And that's when

39:24

I met the mayor and had

39:26

a great conversation and ended up

39:29

in the last term of his

39:31

administration. So Ed Koch,

39:33

in office from 1978 to 1989, his legacy seems to

39:35

run from helping New York recover

39:42

from the fiscal crisis of the 70s

39:44

to becoming kind of a racially

39:47

polarizing figure, not quite Giuliani, but

39:49

maybe a precursor. Is that too

39:51

harsh? It

39:53

is too harsh. She's also the

39:56

person who spent a

39:58

chunk of money for the First time

40:01

in building affordable housing,

40:03

Ah in rebuilding, ah

40:05

with Freddie for rare

40:07

and others are in

40:10

the Bronx. Odd devastation

40:12

that the. Wrongs are

40:14

was in. ah he was

40:16

someone who said I was

40:18

in his mind sometimes offensive.

40:21

He was also the person

40:23

who gave me carte blanche

40:25

when President Reagan signed the

40:27

Ethnicity or in Nineteen Eighty

40:29

Six the only amnesty we

40:31

have seen in our adult

40:34

life to really go through

40:36

the city and make sure

40:38

that everyone would he and

40:40

have papers could get them

40:42

with the new legislation. Amnesty

40:45

for undocumented Immigrants Rich people

40:47

Forget Ronald Reagan signed into

40:49

Law Did you work with

40:51

incomes? I did. Ah,

40:54

I got it. Cards had. Appointed

40:56

me ah to the Health

40:58

and Hospitals Corporation as a

41:00

board member ah I stayed

41:02

on he had asked some

41:05

of was if you wanna

41:07

continue to serve the city

41:09

or in any way please

41:11

let me know if I

41:13

had hat that trainee Nasa

41:15

clinical psychologist ah so I

41:18

i i figured this is

41:20

a good place to continue

41:22

to serve or the city

41:24

as a volunteer. And I

41:26

worked for the and tired ah.

41:29

thinking. Sturm as a board member

41:31

of the Health and Hospitals are

41:34

leading the Capital committee which was

41:36

an important comedic is it was

41:38

so much building ah of the

41:41

health infrastructure that was taking place.

41:43

Do you think that or you

41:45

could cite any one thing of

41:47

your choice? Is.

41:51

Something. We don't remember enough. About

41:54

Mayor David Dinkins because he probably

41:56

did a lot that people say

41:58

go, You know. Nice.

42:01

Guy but wound up being divisive

42:03

even in trying to be kind

42:05

of soft on everybody and lost

42:07

after one term. What? What do

42:09

you think is an important thing

42:11

to take with us? about the

42:13

David Dinkins mail? To I I

42:15

know ah. Mayor Giuliani

42:17

was the one we niger

42:19

a that tons of Forty

42:22

Second Street and Time Square.

42:24

but all of that planning.

42:27

And the beginning of that

42:29

development happened on the mayor.

42:32

Think it's ah, we don't

42:34

give him a Knopf credit

42:37

ah for everything he did

42:39

and poor. Continuing to worry

42:42

about a staple of New

42:44

York politics which is that

42:47

governments should be helping people

42:49

that. Government. It's

42:51

the only place with

42:53

with a not resources

42:56

to make families betters

42:58

stronger and neighborhood stronger.

43:01

Listener. Rights. I've.

43:03

Never heard of this guy but

43:06

of course have his son. Hadn't

43:08

heard of the Sun. Now I

43:10

know why. His son is who

43:12

he is. Papa Miranda sounds like

43:14

a poet, university professor, and a

43:17

politician all in one. can you

43:19

ask him as he can Cause

43:21

I just have to know I've

43:23

been in math. My son ah

43:25

it's a great cook as as

43:27

I am you I've I am

43:30

a fantastic congress and the in

43:32

fact I've been married forty. Six

43:34

years and you could ask

43:36

my wife I am the

43:39

one who cook. The

43:41

most authentic in my house. And

43:43

I start by bringing her coffee

43:45

in the morning at five thirty

43:47

every morning for the last forty

43:50

six years. Know the listener right?

43:52

It's important to ask Luis about

43:54

his support and involvement with the

43:56

Porto Rico oversight management and economic

43:59

stability and. a largely

44:01

controversial congressional act that imposed

44:03

austerity measures and debt restructuring

44:06

that made Wall Street rich and severely

44:08

hurt the island. Do you accept the

44:10

premise? I don't. A

44:13

couple of things. One,

44:17

they were already rich and

44:19

they used Puerto Rico as

44:21

a piggy bank. And

44:25

when President

44:27

Obama was in charge, Congress

44:31

was in Republican hands,

44:33

he asked for our

44:35

help to make sure

44:37

something was passed in Puerto

44:40

Rico where bankruptcy could be

44:42

an option because

44:44

the alternative was for these

44:47

rich people to just

44:50

dip into the Puerto

44:52

Rican treasury and be

44:54

the first ones paid.

44:58

No doubt it was

45:00

the only alternative that

45:03

the president saw at

45:05

that point to help Puerto

45:07

Rico. And I have

45:10

learned through my life that

45:12

you sometimes have to make tough

45:15

decisions. You could stay on the

45:17

sidelines and criticize. It's

45:20

a possibility I have done

45:22

plenty of that in my

45:24

own life. Or when you

45:27

have an opportunity, you could always try

45:29

to help. By now, the

45:32

Puerto Rico de archipelago is in a

45:35

different place. It should

45:37

be dismantled. And also remember that

45:39

I came to New York in

45:41

the middle of a fiscal crisis

45:44

and a similar situation was

45:46

created in the city to make

45:48

sure that we prospered and went

45:51

to the other side. politics,

46:01

you know, independence versus statehood

46:03

versus continued Commonwealth status? I

46:06

do. I have

46:08

always been pro-independence. That

46:11

is not a secret for

46:14

all of those who know me.

46:16

But I also know that back

46:19

four years after I came to

46:22

New York, I made the decision

46:24

to stay in New

46:26

York and raised a family in

46:28

New York. So the

46:30

ultimate goal of what the

46:33

status of Puerto Rico has

46:35

to be made by the

46:37

three million people who stayed

46:39

in Puerto Rico in

46:42

La Buena, well, La Mala, and have

46:44

had to go through everything

46:46

that Puerto Rico has

46:48

gone through. It is

46:50

their choice. Our job

46:53

in the United States is

46:55

to make sure Congress hears,

46:58

and that whatever Puerto Ricans

47:01

decide, Congress accepts

47:04

as the ultimate political

47:06

goal for the island.

47:08

We know that what we have

47:11

in a colonial

47:14

situation for the last 126

47:17

years is untenable. Michelle

47:23

in Harlem, you're on

47:25

WNYC with Luis Miranda.

47:28

And Michelle, you saw a documentary

47:30

about him and Lin-Manuel? Yeah. Hey,

47:34

Brian and Luis. I saw the documentary

47:36

about a year or two ago. And

47:39

of course, I know the son, but the father, I

47:41

was so impressed. So I wanted to give you

47:43

your props and thank you for

47:45

the advocacy. So my

47:48

story and my question is, I grew up

47:50

in East Harlem. It's one of the neighborhoods.

47:53

My father lived there for 50 years. And

47:55

this is in the 70s. We went

47:57

to, my sister and I went to St.

47:59

Cecilia's. parish church, St. Cecilia's, just

48:02

celebrated. It's 100 years. So

48:04

for a long time now, my

48:06

contemporaries, who are now in their 60s, that

48:09

there's no more Puerto Ricans left in East Harlem.

48:12

And I really saw that when the church

48:14

had its 100th anniversary last

48:17

year, and it was predominantly

48:19

Mexicans who were the

48:21

parishioners. And Joe Bataan, who

48:23

was one of my

48:26

sister's best friend's father, they went to

48:28

school, he had a concert, and

48:30

there was hardly any Puerto Ricans there. So

48:33

I know there was a lot of controversy

48:35

about Mexicans taking over and no Puerto

48:37

Ricans left. And I was just wondering,

48:39

and I feel bad too, because these

48:41

were my friends. I went to their mother's

48:44

house to have my bainiel and

48:46

rice and beans. But

48:48

I was just wondering how you feel about this. What

48:51

are your thoughts? It's the story

48:53

of New York. I

48:55

am sure the Irish felt

48:58

the same way when

49:00

we moved to Washington Heights

49:03

and we began to change

49:06

the neighborhood. What

49:08

I believe is that the

49:11

next chapter of a neighborhood

49:14

will be a good one

49:16

if we continue to understand

49:19

the roots that someone planted

49:21

there and the next

49:24

steps that we need to take

49:26

to make the neighborhood better. Yeah,

49:29

do you write about, and Michelle, thank

49:31

you for your call. Do

49:33

you write about how the Immigration Act of 1965 passed

49:37

by Congress has changed New York? It

49:40

opened the gates wider to

49:42

immigration from Mexico, as

49:45

Michelle was referring to, from all

49:47

kinds of countries. And honestly, thinking

49:50

about Lin-Manuel's and the

49:52

Heights, which I did see, I didn't

49:54

see the unsinkable Molly Brown, but I did see it in the

49:56

Heights. But you have to see it, now you're on homework. The

49:59

demand for the Heights. community in Washington Heights

50:01

really grew to define the area as a

50:03

result just as one example. Do you write

50:05

about that law or the whole last 60

50:08

years in that context? I do.

50:10

In Relentless I talked

50:13

about that period because for

50:15

an entire year it became

50:17

my most important job. All

50:20

of a sudden there were hundreds

50:22

of thousands of New Yorkers who

50:25

have come to the to

50:27

Manhattan and to the boroughs

50:29

from somewhere else and there

50:32

was a possibility and there

50:34

was enough paperwork that they

50:36

needed to do. So

50:39

I worked hand-in-hand with

50:41

a special advisor for Asian Affairs.

50:43

I always remember and tell the

50:45

story in the book. Once

50:48

we were in Queens

50:51

in Jackson Heights and we had

50:54

a mixed crowd of

50:56

Latinos, mostly Colombians and

50:58

Ecuadorians and

51:01

Chinese. First

51:05

Eva Tan spoke about the law

51:07

and what needed to be done

51:09

and then I came and spoke

51:12

in Spanish about the

51:14

law and what needed to be

51:16

done. Le Manuel looked at me

51:18

and says, I didn't

51:20

know you speak Chinese daddy

51:23

because I follow Eva in

51:25

another language but

51:27

it was an important

51:30

part of our history.

51:33

The only time that

51:35

we have been able

51:37

to help hundreds of

51:40

thousands get out of the

51:42

shadow and become legal

51:46

people working in our city and now

51:48

the country. I

52:01

have a question for Mr. Miranda,

52:03

a Puerto Rican born in

52:05

the Bronx but raised in

52:07

Puerto Rico, then got

52:09

married and relocated back

52:12

to New York and raised my three daughters

52:14

here. Do you think after

52:17

making your last statement of being

52:19

an independent Puerto

52:22

Rico will survive an independence

52:24

after being a colony for

52:26

so many years and

52:29

depending on the front of the state

52:32

for as long as I could remember.

52:35

I see Puerto Rico being a

52:37

colony in the past, a colony

52:39

in the present and a colony

52:41

forever because United

52:43

States will never release

52:45

that territory. Marisa,

52:49

in my saddest

52:51

moment I take

52:54

on the view that

52:56

things may not be able

52:58

to change. However, we have

53:02

seen through history that it's

53:04

possible, that it's not

53:06

easy, that it's a difficult

53:08

task but only the will

53:11

of the people will get

53:13

there. And it is

53:15

the will of the people if they decide

53:17

to go there that will

53:19

make a different reality for

53:21

Puerto Rico. If not,

53:23

as I said, will continue to

53:26

be a colony. It's

53:29

tough though, would be tough, right? Economically

53:31

in addition to what

53:34

Marisa raised, economically to suddenly

53:37

not get the

53:40

benefits economically

53:42

of the US

53:45

government to the extent that there

53:47

are. It is

53:50

tough but life and

53:52

the life of countries, it's

53:56

full of tough moments.

54:00

I believe, and by

54:02

the way, others believe that

54:04

statehood is the solution, that

54:07

becoming the 51st state of

54:09

the union and the poorest

54:12

state of the union, it's

54:15

the solution, is the ultimate

54:17

goal of the American citizenship

54:19

that was given to Puerto

54:21

Ricans back in 1917. But

54:26

I believe in the human

54:28

spirit, I have seen countries move

54:33

from colonialism to a different

54:35

stage in development. One

54:38

more call. Mike, in Manhattan, you're on WNYC.

54:41

We've got about 30 seconds for you. Hi

54:43

there. Hi, Mr. Miranda.

54:45

There's a lot of talk about, it's almost

54:47

like a surprise to people that so many

54:50

people from Puerto Rican background, a Latin background,

54:52

are going to the political

54:54

right. And all I can say is

54:56

for me, I saw this generation of

54:58

Italian Americans, I think there's an analogy

55:01

where his generation became Reagan Democrats,

55:03

because they had similar backgrounds.

55:06

They were Catholic, they worked hard, they

55:08

viewed themselves as immigrants who did things

55:10

the right way. And there

55:12

was a huge shift, and I think to this day

55:14

we still see it in places like Long Island. And

55:17

I'm wondering what your views are, because to me

55:19

it's no surprise that, because then

55:21

there's other Italian Americans who doubled down

55:23

and became very liberal, but

55:25

in the old days it was taken for granted that

55:27

they would be Democrats. And

55:30

then my father's generation kind of made a shift, and

55:32

I'm wondering if you see that analogy with people

55:34

from Spanish background. Thank you very

55:37

much, Mike. Do you see it, Luis? You

55:39

see some of that. Remember, I

55:42

worked with a young

55:44

woman, Mexican American, who

55:47

was fifth generation Mexican

55:49

American, running for AG

55:51

against criminal paxing in

55:53

Texas. She

55:57

had different positions than I

55:59

did. me as a

56:01

New Yorker, but as a

56:04

fifth-generation Mexican, she still thought

56:06

the Democratic Party, it's the

56:08

party that will help Latinos

56:11

the best. But

56:14

the polls we're seeing are

56:16

like 50-50 among Latino voters

56:18

in America for Trump. How

56:20

much of it do you even believe? Some

56:23

of it, but when you

56:26

dig a little into the poll,

56:28

and I ask everyone to do

56:30

that before they repeat that we

56:32

are 50-50, we're usually 8-9% of

56:34

the sample. Most

56:39

of the interviews were done in English,

56:41

even though a third of our community

56:43

speak Spanish and gets its

56:45

political information. We

56:48

know the only poll that

56:50

has been done recently of

56:52

a Latino sample nationwide showed

56:55

that Latinos were at 49%

56:57

supporting Biden. From

57:01

the 66 that we did, that is

57:03

a big drop, but that

57:05

Trump's support had not increased

57:08

beyond the base of some

57:10

Latino groups in Florida and

57:12

in more conservative parts of

57:15

the country. The rest

57:18

are waiting to hear the message

57:20

because I have to say in

57:22

the book, in Relentless, we

57:25

are persuadable voters, not

57:28

necessarily base voters,

57:30

and Democrats need to

57:32

remind us why is

57:35

it that we believe that they should

57:37

be in power. Luis

57:39

Miranda, longtime Democratic

57:42

Party organizer, is

57:44

now the author of a memoir called

57:46

Relentless, My Story of the Latino Spirit

57:48

That is Transforming America. This was wonderful.

57:51

Thank you so much for sharing everything.

57:53

Thank you for having me here, Brian.

58:00

famous concert venues in the world. The

58:02

first time I walked on the stage, I

58:04

felt like my feet were moving, but they

58:06

were not touching the floor. Join

58:08

us for If This Hall Could Talk, a new

58:10

podcast that explores the history of this iconic

58:12

landmark through the unique items in its archives.

58:15

I'm your host, Jessica Vosk, and together we'll explore

58:17

how the past shaped the culture we live in

58:20

today. Listen to If This Hall

58:22

Could Talk wherever you get podcasts. The

58:33

New World It's

58:39

Brian Lierso on WNYC. Good

58:41

morning again, everyone. So let's

58:44

say you're Samuel Alito or Clarence

58:46

Thomas or Amy Coney Barrett. Your

58:48

job is Supreme Court originalist as

58:50

you try to apply the values

58:52

of 1789 when

58:55

the United States Constitution was written

58:57

and ratified to every controversy that

58:59

comes your way in 2024, plus

59:02

the strictest interpretation of the 27

59:05

amendments that followed. You're not

59:07

always a strict constructionist, like when

59:09

Colorado finds that Donald Trump is

59:11

disqualified from the election there because

59:13

he violated the insurrection clause of

59:15

the Constitution. Then maybe you say,

59:17

oh, Colorado, don't take it so

59:19

literally, but usually you're a strict

59:21

constructionist. That's your job. Well, our

59:24

friend A.J. Jacobs went those justices

59:27

one better. He decided to live

59:29

strictly according to the U.S. Constitution

59:31

in his personal life for one

59:34

full year. The result

59:36

is A.J.'s latest book, The Year of

59:39

Living Constitutionally, one man's humble

59:41

quest to follow the Constitution's

59:43

original meaning. Now,

59:45

some of you know that A.J. has done this

59:47

kind of thing before. One of his previous books

59:49

was The Year of Living Biblically. Another

59:52

was It's All Relative, in which he

59:54

set out to build the ultimate family

59:56

tree, showing how every person on Earth

59:58

is related to one another. another. I

1:00:00

think he established that he and I are 49th

1:00:03

cousins or something. But now it's

1:00:05

the year of living constitutionally. Let's

1:00:07

see if we the people

1:00:10

in order to form a more perfect radio

1:00:12

show can find out how he did it.

1:00:14

Hi AJ, welcome back to WNYC. Good

1:00:17

morrow Brian. Good to

1:00:19

be back. Is that what they said in 1789? Good

1:00:22

morrow? It is, it is. It

1:00:24

means good morning. I figure is

1:00:26

appropriate. I've heard of it. So why did

1:00:28

you decide to live strictly according to the

1:00:30

Constitution? Well you mentioned a

1:00:32

little in your introduction but I realized

1:00:35

a couple of years ago I had

1:00:37

never read the Constitution. I knew

1:00:39

the preamble, the we the people part

1:00:41

from Schoolhouse Rock, thank you. But I

1:00:44

had never read the whole thing

1:00:46

and yet every day on the

1:00:49

news I would see how this 230

1:00:52

year old document was having a

1:00:54

huge impact on how Americans live

1:00:56

their lives was still

1:00:58

the the center of urgent

1:01:00

debate and I thought I

1:01:03

want to find out what does the Constitution

1:01:05

really say? What does it really mean?

1:01:08

And the way I like to understand a

1:01:10

topic as you mentioned is to dive in to

1:01:12

immerse myself. So that's what I did with the

1:01:14

Bible in my book The Year of Living Biblically.

1:01:16

I followed the Ten Commandments but I

1:01:19

also grew a huge beard and

1:01:21

I thought okay I'm going to do the Constitution

1:01:23

the same way. I'm going to follow the original

1:01:25

meaning, become the

1:01:27

original originalist and I

1:01:29

did so I carried a musket on the

1:01:31

Upper West Side of New York for my

1:01:33

Second Amendment. I renounced... I'm glad I didn't

1:01:36

run into you on that day. Well

1:01:38

it wasn't loaded so you wouldn't be in

1:01:40

much danger but

1:01:44

I renounced social media and

1:01:46

wrote pamphlets with a quill pen

1:01:48

and just tried to get inside

1:01:50

the minds of the founding fathers and

1:01:52

it was absurd and ridiculous at times

1:01:54

but it was also I had a serious

1:01:57

goal like the one you mentioned. What do...

1:01:59

how do... interpret the Constitution

1:02:01

in 2024. How should it affect our

1:02:03

lives? And how ultimately

1:02:05

can we keep democracy alive?

1:02:08

So to respect the framers of the

1:02:10

Constitution you put yourself in their shoes

1:02:13

and their buckled shoes. Yeah, from some

1:02:15

of the photos I've seen you put

1:02:17

yourself literally in their shoes. What was

1:02:19

that reenactment shot I saw? That's

1:02:22

right. No, I walked

1:02:24

the walk. I talked the talk. I wore the

1:02:27

tricorn hat. I wore the stockings. By

1:02:29

the way, I will always be grateful

1:02:31

now for elastic socks because I had

1:02:34

to put little belts on my socks

1:02:36

every day. Things we

1:02:38

take for granted. Exactly.

1:02:41

I will never take elastic or

1:02:44

democracy for granted. Those are two big

1:02:46

takeaways. And you say to be a

1:02:48

real originalist you wrote this book with

1:02:50

a quill pen. I guess that's rather

1:02:52

than Microsoft Word or something. That's

1:02:55

right. I did a quill pen

1:02:57

by candlelight. And I will say we

1:02:59

do not want to go back to the

1:03:01

18th century. It was in many ways a

1:03:04

terrible time. It was sexist and racist

1:03:06

and dangerous. But

1:03:09

there are some elements

1:03:11

that are worth reviving, I

1:03:13

think. And one is not

1:03:16

writing with a quill but writing offline. I

1:03:18

mean I feel the way I thought

1:03:20

changed. And I do think

1:03:23

that was something that the

1:03:25

founders might have experienced. You think in

1:03:27

a more deep and nuanced way when

1:03:29

you're not getting pinged and dinged by

1:03:31

the internet every three seconds. And we're

1:03:33

gonna get into some of the serious

1:03:36

issues that you explore even through a

1:03:38

lot of humor. But you

1:03:40

know your book is a lot

1:03:42

longer than the Constitution. I am

1:03:44

sitting here holding a tiny pocket

1:03:46

Constitution. Some of our listeners know

1:03:48

we give away a pocket Constitution

1:03:51

in our membership drive sometimes. And it

1:03:53

really is a pocket Constitution. You can

1:03:55

stick this tiny little book in a

1:03:57

shirt pocket. It's so small. words

1:04:00

than let's say an expressive New

1:04:02

Yorker article. Did you consider limiting

1:04:04

your text to the original Constitution's

1:04:06

length? That

1:04:09

would have been easier. I don't think

1:04:11

we could charge the the amount for

1:04:13

my book, but it is a great

1:04:16

point. The US Constitution is one of

1:04:18

the shortest constitutions. I think Monaco is

1:04:20

the only other shorter Constitution

1:04:22

in the world and and it

1:04:24

has huge impact because

1:04:27

it means there is so much that is unwritten,

1:04:29

the invisible Constitution, and so much

1:04:32

is about the interpretation. And

1:04:35

I am taken

1:04:37

by your vision of yourself

1:04:39

walking around the Upper West Side with

1:04:42

a musket to demonstrate the

1:04:44

Second Amendment, I guess. I thought the

1:04:46

Constitution says I have the right to

1:04:48

bear AR-15s. Did I misread that? It

1:04:51

doesn't say. Some people think it says that.

1:04:53

But yes, well, this was one of the

1:04:55

I have a large section on

1:04:58

what does the Second Amendment mean? And

1:05:01

at the time when it was

1:05:03

ratified, muskets were the main weapon

1:05:07

of choice. And muskets, I

1:05:09

learned, are vastly different than guns now,

1:05:11

which is part of the point of

1:05:13

the book. And I

1:05:15

actually did fire a musket. I went

1:05:18

out with some reenactors and we fired

1:05:20

muskets. It is hard. It is like

1:05:22

15 steps. You've got

1:05:24

to take out the gunpowder, take out the

1:05:26

ramrod. So it's like building an IKEA

1:05:28

table. So it is a vastly different

1:05:30

machine and it would be very hard

1:05:33

to do a mass

1:05:35

shooting with a musket. So this

1:05:37

is one source of debate. On

1:05:39

the one side, you have gun

1:05:41

rights advocates who say, well,

1:05:44

it just says arms. That means every

1:05:46

arm. And trying to restrict it, that's

1:05:48

like saying the First Amendment only applies

1:05:50

to wooden printing presses. But

1:05:52

the other side says, no, these

1:05:55

are two vastly different machines.

1:05:58

And it would be a as

1:06:00

if you had a law saying that

1:06:02

wheeled vehicles are allowed on this

1:06:04

street. And at the time, wheeled

1:06:06

vehicles were carts and bicycles. Now

1:06:08

we have Mack trucks. Is

1:06:10

that the same? Should we be evolving

1:06:13

and changing the law

1:06:16

with this vastly different technology?

1:06:19

My answer is, I do think, yes.

1:06:24

You do think, yes. We

1:06:28

need to evolve the Constitution. We

1:06:34

should not be allowing AR-15s

1:06:37

just under the Second Amendment.

1:06:39

Go ahead, sorry. You

1:06:42

want to finish the thought there? Go ahead. I'm

1:06:45

sorry. No. It is a

1:06:47

big theme of the book is

1:06:49

this originalism, where the

1:06:51

most important thing is the

1:06:54

original meaning of the words

1:06:56

versus this idea of pluralism or

1:06:58

pragmatism or living constitutionalism, how

1:07:01

much we need to evolve

1:07:03

the meaning of the words

1:07:05

because the morals have

1:07:07

changed. And we're

1:07:09

going to get into that in a little more

1:07:11

detail in just a second. The listeners, if you're

1:07:14

just joining us, our guest

1:07:16

is A.J. Jacobs, author now of

1:07:18

The Year of Living Constitutionally, one

1:07:20

man's humble quest to follow the

1:07:23

Constitution, the Constitution's original meaning. And

1:07:26

we can take some phone calls for him, 212-433-WNYC. Your

1:07:31

question's about A.J. Jacobs' Year

1:07:33

of Living Constitutionally. Welcome here. Or

1:07:35

maybe some of you have tried

1:07:37

it yourself. Strict constructionists in the audience?

1:07:40

How did that go? 212-433-WNYC.

1:07:45

Call or text, 212-433-9692. So

1:07:51

again, unless we give people the wrong

1:07:53

idea, now that we've established the tone

1:07:56

of how you often present, you

1:07:59

do get serious about it. many things

1:08:01

regarding a constitution in

1:08:03

this book. So for example, to go

1:08:06

back to what you were just

1:08:08

saying, it's not just Trump and the

1:08:10

authoritarian right who say terminate

1:08:13

the Constitution, he has said that,

1:08:15

there are a number of legal scholars

1:08:18

on the left who say we should

1:08:20

really scrap that old thing and start

1:08:22

over because as you delicately put it,

1:08:24

it was written by wealthy racists who

1:08:27

thought tobacco smoke enemas were cutting-edge medicine.

1:08:29

So do you analyze the most seriously

1:08:31

flawed underpinnings that haven't been addressed by

1:08:33

amendments? Absolutely. Yeah, as

1:08:36

you say, I hope it's

1:08:38

an entertaining book but it also has a very

1:08:40

serious point and one of them is

1:08:42

what do we do with the Constitution? Do

1:08:44

we scrap it and start a new one

1:08:47

where people on both the far left

1:08:49

and the far right are advocating

1:08:51

for that? That makes me very

1:08:53

nervous because I don't know what's going to come out

1:08:55

of it but the other

1:08:58

option is we are stuck with

1:09:00

this Constitution which has some

1:09:02

amazing parts. It is, it was

1:09:05

in some senses the big bang of

1:09:07

democracy even though it's a

1:09:09

very narrow democracy at the

1:09:11

time but they

1:09:15

wanted it to be changed. That's why

1:09:17

they put in the fifth section where you can

1:09:19

make amendments. The problem is they didn't

1:09:21

think it would be so hard to change.

1:09:24

They didn't anticipate this two-party system

1:09:26

so it is almost now impossible

1:09:28

to change the Constitution. So what

1:09:30

do we do with that? Because

1:09:33

we are stuck with some very

1:09:35

problematic anti-democratic mechanisms

1:09:37

from the Constitution that

1:09:40

they put in there

1:09:43

to make it less democratic

1:09:46

because they didn't trust the

1:09:49

people fully like the electoral college

1:09:51

and the electoral college has caused

1:09:53

massive problems. So excuse

1:09:57

me. I'm

1:10:00

going to drink some of my Madira. I'll

1:10:04

jump in. Did they

1:10:06

have a drink

1:10:10

of choice, alcoholic beverage

1:10:12

of choice that you discovered

1:10:14

in your research about constitutional

1:10:16

originalists who originally wrote the

1:10:18

Constitution? Absolutely. They

1:10:21

were fans of Madira was

1:10:23

their main one, which is a fortified wine.

1:10:26

One shocking thing was they were day

1:10:28

drinkers and night drinkers. There

1:10:31

was a lot of alcohol going on. I

1:10:33

am impressed that they actually got stuff done

1:10:36

with the amount that they were drinking. Could

1:10:38

the Constitution or elements of it be challenged

1:10:41

in court on the basis that the people

1:10:43

who wrote it were drunk at the time?

1:10:46

That is a novel legal strategy.

1:10:49

I would support it if you want to try. You

1:10:53

draw attention to the tension

1:10:55

right in the little preamble

1:10:57

to the Constitution between

1:11:00

individual liberty and the general welfare.

1:11:02

What jumped out at you there?

1:11:06

Back then, I think that they were much

1:11:09

more aware of that balance than we are. Some

1:11:14

of my favorite legal scholars

1:11:16

talk about how we almost

1:11:18

fetishize individual rights and that

1:11:20

the founders and many other countries did not

1:11:22

believe that is the best way to go. You

1:11:26

should not have an absolute right to say

1:11:28

anything you want at all times. When

1:11:32

someone is speaking, you

1:11:35

could say, I have the right

1:11:37

to shout them down. What

1:11:39

about the other rights, the rights of the speaker, the

1:11:41

rights of the audience, the right of the theater

1:11:43

to make a living?

1:11:47

That is a different way of

1:11:49

envisioning rights that

1:11:52

I think is a little more balanced

1:11:54

and something we could get back to. Yes.

1:11:56

I am going to read the whole preamble

1:11:59

to the Constitution. now because it is so short

1:12:01

and people may not have heard it in a long time

1:12:03

or read it from a tiny

1:12:05

little print in my tiny little

1:12:07

pocket Constitution. We the

1:12:09

people of the United States in

1:12:11

order to form a more perfect

1:12:14

union established justice ensure domestic tranquility

1:12:16

provide for the common defense, promote

1:12:18

the general welfare and

1:12:20

secure the blessings of liberty to

1:12:23

ourselves and our posterity do ordain

1:12:25

and establish this Constitution for the

1:12:27

United States of America. So

1:12:30

there's the there's the general welfare clause

1:12:32

which kind of suggests something more communal

1:12:34

even though so much of the Bill

1:12:36

of Rights has to do with rights

1:12:39

for the individual. Right

1:12:41

and I think that they

1:12:43

would have had a bill of responsibilities

1:12:46

to balance the Bill of Rights because

1:12:48

it was such but but

1:12:51

it was so assumed it was so

1:12:53

ingrained that you had a responsibility to

1:12:55

your community your country whether that's the

1:12:57

bucket brigade and putting out fires or

1:13:00

being a part of the militia and

1:13:03

I I think that that

1:13:05

is something that we we could recover

1:13:07

and when I wrote

1:13:10

there's a movement now to write family

1:13:12

Constitution you write a Constitution for your

1:13:14

family and I have teenage son. So

1:13:17

in addition to the Bill of Rights like

1:13:19

you know they can sleep late on Saturday

1:13:21

a bill of responsibilities

1:13:23

and I do think that that

1:13:25

sense of civic responsibility would

1:13:27

make our democracy stronger. Here's

1:13:31

a very provocative thought from

1:13:33

a listener on your whole

1:13:36

exercise of living constitutionally living

1:13:38

your personal life according

1:13:40

to the strict language in the

1:13:42

Constitution for a year listener writes

1:13:45

a simple one sentence question could

1:13:47

a black person do this same

1:13:49

exercise because a black person would probably

1:13:51

have to go get themselves enslaved somewhere.

1:13:55

Well I do follow the amendments as

1:13:57

well and thankfully there's the 13th 14th.

1:14:00

and 15th amendments, but it is,

1:14:02

I definitely wrote

1:14:06

about race relations, which

1:14:08

of course is a huge part of the

1:14:11

Constitution. And I found, again,

1:14:13

there are two ways you can view this. So

1:14:16

there is, before

1:14:19

the Civil War, you had William

1:14:21

Lloyd Garrison, one of the famous

1:14:23

abolitionists. He said the Constitution

1:14:25

is a pact with the devil because

1:14:28

it endorses or condones

1:14:30

slavery. And he

1:14:32

literally burned the Constitution on stage in

1:14:35

front of thousands of people. Originally

1:14:39

Frederick Douglass was on his side.

1:14:41

They were allies. But somewhere in

1:14:43

the 1850s, Frederick Douglass

1:14:46

made a turn. And he said, instead

1:14:49

of burning the Constitution, let's use it

1:14:52

because it contains the

1:14:54

seeds of what America should

1:14:56

be. It contains the seeds of liberty and

1:14:58

equality. It says it in there. And

1:15:01

what we have to do is make

1:15:03

America live up to the promissory note.

1:15:06

That's what he called the Constitution, a

1:15:08

promissory note. And that is what Martin

1:15:10

Luther King used the same language. Obama

1:15:12

used the same language in a great speech

1:15:14

about race. So it

1:15:17

is fascinating whether

1:15:19

you should, like you said

1:15:21

earlier, do we scrap the Constitution or

1:15:23

do we try to make it live

1:15:25

up to its best principles? Clint

1:15:28

in Westchester, you are on WNYC with

1:15:30

AJ Jacobs. Hi,

1:15:33

Clint. Yes. Yeah,

1:15:36

I'm almost forgetting it's been quite a while. But

1:15:38

trying to simulate living as they did

1:15:41

by merely wearing some shoes that are

1:15:43

somewhere uncomfortable and carrying an unloaded musket,

1:15:45

getting down the street, getting some weird

1:15:47

looks. What about going to an

1:15:50

outhouse? What about chopping firewood?

1:15:53

Picking up eggs and things like that. Yeah,

1:15:55

what about that, AJ? I

1:15:58

did the best I could, and I did, yes. I

1:16:00

used an outhouse and I did chop wood

1:16:03

and I joined the Revolutionary

1:16:06

War reenactors, the third regiment

1:16:08

of New Jersey. And

1:16:11

so yes, I did not have surgery

1:16:13

without anesthesia, although I did

1:16:16

ask my dermatologist to take off a

1:16:18

little mole without anesthesia and she

1:16:20

refused for insurance reasons. And

1:16:23

so I never claim I'm actually inside

1:16:25

the mind of the founding fathers. But

1:16:27

even just getting a taste, I

1:16:29

think, was really revelatory. And as

1:16:32

I mentioned, there were

1:16:34

many horrible things about the past

1:16:38

and we don't want to go back and this

1:16:40

was one way of reminding

1:16:42

me. But at the same time, there

1:16:44

were parts of the past that are

1:16:46

very, that we might want to revisit,

1:16:49

like writing with a quill or writing

1:16:51

offline, I should say. Or

1:16:53

this was my favorite part of the whole

1:16:55

experiment, recapturing the joy

1:16:58

and awe of election day and

1:17:00

the fact that we have democracy.

1:17:03

Oh yes, Chapter 1, what you call

1:17:05

Article 1, is what's

1:17:09

the exact title? I voted like it was

1:17:11

the 18th century? Right. And

1:17:14

in some ways, of course, we don't want to go back

1:17:16

to that because black and

1:17:18

indigenous and people and women were not allowed

1:17:20

to vote. But

1:17:23

for the privileged few who could,

1:17:25

it was a day of

1:17:27

celebration. It

1:17:29

was, I won't say it was Coachella, but there

1:17:31

was music and there was rum punch

1:17:34

and there were farmers markets and

1:17:36

election cake. So I started

1:17:38

a movement to revive election

1:17:41

cakes and I

1:17:43

had people all over, including New York,

1:17:45

lots of New Yorkers, bake election cakes

1:17:47

for last November, bring them to

1:17:49

the polls and our catchphrase was democracy

1:17:52

is sweet. And people

1:17:54

were, it was so moving, I was

1:17:56

moved because it's such a dark time.

1:17:59

There's so much. much cynicism

1:18:01

and nihilism and despair.

1:18:04

But this one positive

1:18:06

act sort of was like a

1:18:08

wedge in the door. I said, you

1:18:11

know, this made me optimistic

1:18:13

that we can take action

1:18:15

and make democracy safe

1:18:18

again. And

1:18:21

I'm doing it again in November. So if

1:18:23

any listeners want to join me in Project

1:18:25

Alex and Kay, just get them in touch with

1:18:27

me through my website or whatever, because

1:18:30

it was the best part of

1:18:33

the political season for me. Does this involve

1:18:35

a certain kind of cake? Well,

1:18:37

the original election cake from the 70s, 90s has,

1:18:39

it has clothes. They

1:18:42

loved clothes. Everything was

1:18:45

clothes. So clothes and figs. So

1:18:47

some people did the original recipe. I am

1:18:50

not a dictator. So I said, whatever you

1:18:52

want to bake is fine. And

1:18:54

people were very creative. So

1:18:56

the Georgia cakes had peaches

1:18:58

and the Michigan cake

1:19:01

had cherries. Apparently cherries are big in

1:19:03

Michigan. So

1:19:05

yeah, it was not required. But

1:19:09

clothes, I did discover

1:19:11

that was another thing that

1:19:13

food tastes. There

1:19:17

is so much clothes and spices

1:19:20

in it that it is not to my

1:19:22

taste. If you vote at

1:19:24

a Dropbox, can you include a tiny little slice

1:19:26

of cake for the poll workers? Someone

1:19:30

did bring it to a Dropbox. I hope

1:19:32

they didn't put it in, but they took

1:19:34

a picture in front of a Dropbox. I

1:19:36

thought I was making that up. Carol in

1:19:38

Wilton, Connecticut. You're on WNYC with AJ Jacobs,

1:19:41

author of the Year of Living Constitutionally. Hi,

1:19:43

Carol. Hi. I just

1:19:45

wondered if your guest had

1:19:47

occasion to consult Ben Franklin,

1:19:50

the American instructor for

1:19:53

his recipe to treat a

1:19:58

suppression of the courses

1:20:01

which was when women had missed

1:20:03

their periods. So in

1:20:05

other words, Ben Franklin had published

1:20:07

the recipe for

1:20:10

an abortion. My

1:20:13

point being that our modern originalists are

1:20:15

a little selective

1:20:24

in their interpretation of what

1:20:27

was original. I think that is

1:20:29

a very good point. The originalists on

1:20:32

the court are cherry picking what

1:20:34

they focus

1:20:37

on about the original

1:20:39

meeting. I did not get

1:20:41

into that, but it's fascinating. I'm going to

1:20:44

look into that. But even something like the

1:20:46

First Amendment, the original meaning of

1:20:48

the First Amendment was much

1:20:50

more constrained. I love

1:20:53

the freedom of speech, but I love

1:20:55

the 20th century version of the 21st

1:20:58

century, not the 18th century. There were

1:21:00

state laws against blasphemy,

1:21:02

against cursing, and

1:21:05

they would never have

1:21:07

approved of something like

1:21:09

Citizens United that says

1:21:11

the First Amendment protects political

1:21:14

donations by corporations. They would

1:21:17

have found that completely baffling. Do

1:21:19

you write about Donald Trump in this

1:21:22

book? Article 2 of the Constitution sets

1:21:24

up the duties of the president, and

1:21:26

Trump had this rather broad interpretation

1:21:29

which the Supreme Court is considering right now.

1:21:31

Here's Trump from when he was in office

1:21:33

in 2019. Then

1:21:36

I have an Article 2 where I have

1:21:38

the right to do whatever I want as

1:21:40

president, but I don't

1:21:42

even talk about that. Apparently, he

1:21:44

does talk about that because we have that

1:21:46

clip. Is that what Article 2 of the

1:21:48

Constitution says? You read it. The

1:21:51

biggest misinterpretation of the Constitution

1:21:53

I've heard in a day.

1:21:59

The president One of the

1:22:01

things that would shock the founders is

1:22:03

how powerful the president is now, both

1:22:05

Democrat and Republican. The

1:22:07

Congress was supposed to be first among equals,

1:22:10

and the president was so much more constrained.

1:22:13

War power was split up so that the

1:22:15

Congress declared war and the president executed it.

1:22:19

Congress did most of the foreign trade. The

1:22:21

fact that the president's power has

1:22:24

increased to almost

1:22:27

a monarch is scary to me. I

1:22:31

started a petition, this was my right

1:22:33

to petition, in

1:22:35

the convention when someone brought up

1:22:38

the idea of a single president.

1:22:40

Many delegates said, are you

1:22:43

jesting? That is bizarre. We

1:22:45

just got rid of a king. There

1:22:47

should be maybe three presidents or 12 presidents,

1:22:50

a council of presidents. I

1:22:53

thought this is an interesting idea. I

1:22:55

wrote a petition and had hundreds

1:22:57

of people sign it. I brought it to an

1:22:59

actual senator in Washington who was very nice to

1:23:01

me. I don't actually

1:23:03

want three presidents, but I wanted to

1:23:06

remind people that the president needs to

1:23:08

be constrained. There are ways to do

1:23:10

that without having JFK, R.F.K.

1:23:12

Jr. and Biden and

1:23:15

Trump all working together in the Oval

1:23:17

Office. That might not be a great

1:23:19

idea. You should have been at the

1:23:21

Supreme Court's presidential immunity hearing the other

1:23:23

week. It might have gone better. Now

1:23:28

you have done a year of

1:23:30

living biblically, a year of living

1:23:32

constitutionally, a year of

1:23:34

living by every strict piece of health

1:23:36

advice for yet another book. Any

1:23:39

ideas for what is next? My

1:23:41

wife is begging me to do

1:23:43

something like a biography of Eleanor

1:23:45

Roosevelt, something that will not require

1:23:48

her to board soldiers in our

1:23:50

apartment. I

1:23:52

might have to bow to her wishes. A

1:23:57

year of living like Eleanor Roosevelt. I

1:24:00

can't wait. A.J. Jacobs,

1:24:03

new book, the year of living constitutionally, and

1:24:05

if you want to see A.J. Jacobs in

1:24:07

person, he has an event at the 92nd

1:24:10

Street Wide tomorrow night at eight

1:24:12

o'clock. It's free, but they want you

1:24:14

to register on the 92-wide website. He'll

1:24:17

be in conversation there with New

1:24:19

York's Lieutenant Governor Antonio Delgado about

1:24:21

democracy and the Constitution. A.J., will

1:24:24

you be wearing knickers? I

1:24:27

will be wearing my Tricorn hat. I

1:24:29

think I'm going a little combination, the

1:24:32

jacket and tie and the Tricorn. A.J.

1:24:35

Jacobs, the year of living

1:24:37

constitutionally. Thank you. Thank

1:24:39

you, Brian. Thanks

1:24:49

for listening to Brian Lehrer Weekend. We're back on

1:24:51

the radio Monday morning at 10 a.m. In

1:24:53

the meantime, follow us on

1:24:55

Twitter at Brian Lehrer or

1:24:58

facebook.com/Brian Lehrer WNYC where

1:25:00

there's always a conversation 24-7.