0:00

And hello there Peter Mansbridge here. This

0:02

is an encore Wednesday. And

0:04

as Brian Mulrooney lies in state in

0:07

Ottawa before his state funeral in Montreal

0:09

was Saturday, we reflect

0:11

back on his years in power. And

0:14

we do that through the Moore-Butts conversation number

0:16

14, which was just a couple of weeks

0:18

ago, uh, but

0:20

it contained a lot of stories about

0:22

Brian Mulrooney. So here we are.

0:30

And hello there Peter Mansbridge here in Toronto. This,

0:41

uh, next few weeks will, there'll

0:44

be a lot of memories shared at different places and

0:47

in different times about

0:49

Brian Mulrooney country's

0:51

18th prime minister who passed away

0:54

late last week. It's

0:56

going to be a state funeral in

0:58

Ottawa and

1:01

in Montreal. Um,

1:04

that would be my guess and dates

1:07

still to be determined, but, uh,

1:09

likely a service as we say in

1:11

Ottawa, but the main service in

1:14

Montreal, which was his, um, well,

1:17

his hometown was Baycomo, Quebec, but he's been

1:19

living in Montreal for the last, well,

1:22

quite a few years. And

1:27

as a result, there are going to be,

1:29

as I say, conversations about the impact that

1:32

this prime minister had not

1:36

only on his party, but on his country

1:38

and on politics

1:41

in general, and that's why, um, there

1:44

was a Moore-Butts conversation slated for this week, it was

1:46

going to be about another topic. Uh,

1:50

but both James Moore, the

1:52

former conservative cabinet minister and Gerald

1:55

Butts, the former top liberal strategist

1:58

and aide to prime minister. Trudeau, both

2:04

said to me, you know, we got to talk about Brian

2:07

Mulroney. There's lots to talk

2:09

about on that. Man

2:12

and the impact he's had. So

2:15

who's to argue with them, right? So

2:17

I said, absolutely, let's do it. So

2:21

that conversation will

2:24

come starting in just a moment. All

2:26

right, let's get to the Moributs

2:29

conversation. Number 14 in

2:31

our series started, well, more than a year

2:33

and a half ago. And

2:36

every six weeks or so we get together and

2:38

have a good chat. And

2:41

this is, this

2:44

is no exception. So

2:48

here we go, Moributs, conversation number 14.

2:50

Well, gentlemen,

2:54

you know, when any one of significance

2:56

passes, people tend to line up at

2:58

the microphones and say wonderful

3:00

things about them. This has been

3:03

certainly no exception. In fact, if

3:05

anything, people have been surprised that

3:09

the numbers who have lined up at the

3:11

microphone to say something have not just been

3:14

conservatives. They've crossed

3:16

the spectrum of politics and

3:19

they're saying more than just the obvious nice things

3:21

one tends to say at a time like this.

3:25

What does that tell us? What

3:27

does it tell us about Brian Mulroney and

3:29

the era in which he was so dominant

3:32

in politics? What, Terry,

3:34

why don't you start us? What do you think it says? That's

3:39

a great question, Peter. And just

3:41

at the outset, I'd like to express

3:43

my condolences to Mila and the kids.

3:45

I know how close they all were

3:47

as a family and how much they

3:49

loved their, respectively, their husband

3:51

and their dad. And James,

3:54

you and I were just talking about this

3:56

beforehand. We've all gone through this experience of

3:58

losing a parent and there's there's a

4:00

particular kind of hurt. And I'm sure

4:03

they're feeling it despite all of

4:05

the outpouring of love and affection that they're

4:07

getting from far and wide from

4:09

people who knew Mr.

4:11

Mulroney personally, but also from regular

4:14

people who he touched in

4:16

one way, shape or form. It's

4:18

a good question to kick us off, Peter.

4:21

And in my view, I'm lucky to have

4:23

known Mr. Mulroney pretty closely

4:25

late in his life, we got to know

4:27

each other in my time, shortly

4:29

before my time in the Prime Minister's office. His

4:33

good friend and colleague Michael Wilson worked

4:35

closely with my wife on

4:37

mental health charity issues in Toronto. And

4:40

I'll tell you a little story about

4:42

the speech that Brian

4:44

gave at Michael's retirement from that effort, which

4:47

was one of the most remarkable political things

4:49

I've ever seen in my life. But

4:53

I think if you could sum it

4:55

up, Mr. Mulroney was famous, of course,

4:57

for the big files,

4:59

the big rocks he moved uphill, when

5:02

he was Prime Minister, but he was

5:04

legendary for the way he conducted his

5:06

personal relationships. And I

5:09

personally will never forget that. About

5:12

90 seconds after the news broke

5:15

that I was resigning from the Prime

5:17

Minister's office, Brian Mulroney called me just

5:20

to say thank you for public for

5:22

my service to the public, and

5:24

to make himself available for absolutely

5:26

anything I needed at any time.

5:29

And that was a pretty remarkable thing for a

5:32

Prime Minister, well,

5:34

for a Prime Minister, but a Prime Minister of

5:36

a different party. He was a true mensch, you

5:38

know, he was a really kind and

5:40

generous man. And if he could do anything

5:43

for you, he would. James.

5:48

I came into politics, my first campaign was

5:50

hammering up signs in 1993 for

5:54

the Reform Party. So my sort of

5:56

brain was that Brian Mulroney

5:58

and the Progressive Conserver, were

6:00

adversaries and the enemy along with the

6:02

liberals and the F-star reform party was

6:05

coming in and that was when I was 16-17. And

6:08

then over the course of my life, like often

6:11

it's the inverse, right? Over the course of your life,

6:13

you see all the wars, you see all the reasons

6:15

not to like something from the past and

6:18

how they sort of got things so wrong. But

6:21

with Brian Mulroney, the

6:23

inverse was true that as I matured and

6:25

grew up, got to know more of the

6:27

rest of the country outside of my physical

6:30

knowledge

6:33

and upbringing and outside of my

6:35

ideological expectation and got to know more

6:37

of the country. And more of the, I

6:39

realized that, oh yeah, he was

6:42

a pretty incredible great Canadian of real

6:44

substance and consequence about whom one can

6:46

agree or disagree with about a

6:48

lot. But

6:50

about who his commitment to the

6:52

country was unassailable,

6:55

impressive, constant.

6:59

One of the personal things Jerry talks about is also

7:01

very true. I didn't have as deep

7:03

a closer relationship. Mine was more from afar,

7:05

met him many times, spoke to him many

7:07

times. He is, I

7:11

mean, I can't imagine anybody in contemporary

7:13

times who can have a

7:15

phone call with Prime Minister Justin

7:17

Trudeau and when the two

7:19

connected, would connect to the Prime Minister's switchboard,

7:23

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau would say, Brian, how are

7:25

you? And then he would

7:27

have a 20 minute conversation about the new NAFTA negotiations

7:30

and all that. And then he could

7:32

hang up the phone and then 20 minutes later be

7:34

on the phone with the White House and Donald Trump

7:36

would pick up the phone and the switchboard and say,

7:38

Brian, how are you? But on

7:40

a personal first name relationship, have that

7:42

kind of capacity to cut

7:45

through biases, temperament, disagreement,

7:47

agreement, and what have you. And

7:49

there's a deep disagreement, obviously, with

7:51

the Trudeau family and the frustration

7:53

and anger that Brian Mulroney had

7:55

from Pierre Trudeau not coming on board

7:58

with the Meechlic Accord in 1990. That

8:00

was a deep personal wound

8:02

where Brian Maroney thought that

8:04

Pierre Trudeau did not put

8:06

country first in his view. I

8:08

think there was a deep sense of anger

8:10

and frustration that Donald Trump, somebody who had

8:13

known for a long time that he would

8:15

conceivably abrogate NAFTA and this big project of

8:17

nation building is just as Brian Maroney thought

8:19

of the FTA and the NAFTA and that

8:22

Donald Trump would

8:24

play politics with this and risk all that. When

8:27

you park your energy and

8:29

your anger and you become a statesman

8:31

and you cut through that and you

8:33

build on a personal relationship, a

8:36

capacity to put country first. That's

8:40

real statesmanship in a pretty remarkable way.

8:43

You know, I find these stories wonderful

8:46

to hear and it tells us

8:48

something about the man. You

8:50

know what? I'm a little older than

8:52

you two. I was around

8:55

before when he first came

8:57

into the Canadian political scene, in

8:59

1976 he ran for leadership, didn't

9:01

win, Joe Clark won. Then

9:04

after the 1980 election, he

9:08

decided he wanted to run again. And he

9:10

was, let's face it, he

9:12

was behind a lot of the Dump Joe movement

9:14

and made that happen.

9:17

He somehow made this great relationship with Clark after

9:21

he, Maroney, became prime

9:23

minister and they did some remarkable

9:25

things together. But

9:27

he was a very partisan guy,

9:30

not just internally in his

9:33

own party on the Clark thing, but

9:35

against the Liberals. I mean, I

9:37

used to watch some of those speeches he gave when he

9:39

ran for leadership and then when he ran for

9:42

prime ministership the year later in 1984. And

9:46

he was down and dirty on

9:49

running against the Liberals. There's no

9:51

question about that. But

9:53

somewhere along the line, it seems

9:56

that he, I mean, he was

9:58

always partisan, I mean, as

10:00

a partisan thing. But

10:02

his respect for the other side and

10:06

sort of the gentlemanly way he

10:08

related to the other side, something

10:10

somewhere along the line happened. And

10:14

it doesn't happen for everyone in

10:16

politics. And I'm just

10:18

wondering whether either of you may have

10:21

some ideas as

10:23

to how that happened and what we

10:25

can all learn from it, especially these

10:27

days, where we don't seem to have

10:29

that at play.

10:32

Jerry, thoughts? Well,

10:35

I think what happened, Peter, was that he won. And

10:38

that doesn't necessarily make you

10:41

a gracious person. And

10:43

it is true, I've certainly seen this in

10:45

my life and politics and

10:47

business and in my personal life, that

10:49

there is indeed such thing as a

10:51

sore winner. But

10:55

Brian Mulroney was not that. Coming

10:57

into that office enlarged his spirit, I

10:59

think he was a much more

11:02

bare knuckled

11:04

politician and opposition than he ever

11:06

was in government. And

11:08

I think that that's because he had a

11:11

baseline respect

11:13

for the institutions, that

11:16

he didn't want to see them debased under

11:18

his stewardship. And

11:21

whether you agreed with his

11:23

constitutional perspective or not, whether

11:25

you thought he was a

11:28

toady to the Americans or

11:30

recognizing the geopolitical reality of

11:32

the day and trying to

11:34

position Canada's economy favorably

11:36

within that constellation, you

11:40

could not doubt that he had a clear

11:42

idea of what was in the national interest

11:44

for the country and that he

11:46

was primarily motivated by that. That

11:49

to me, I remember in

11:51

high school, I was in high school

11:53

when in grade school and then high school when

11:55

Brian Mulroney was prime minister,

11:58

and I remember participating. in

12:00

competing in an essay writing contest.

12:02

This is, I'm competing now

12:04

for Nerd of the Year award, but an

12:07

essay writing contest at Sydney Academy

12:09

High School in grade

12:11

12, and we were asked to write

12:13

on Fools Cap in pen, which

12:16

will date me for your listeners, our

12:19

opinion of both the free trade

12:22

agreement and the

12:24

GST. You

12:27

know, it was, I don't think

12:29

that there are many high school students

12:31

who are consumed with federal politics these

12:33

days. There was something

12:35

about their agenda that you

12:37

knew the country was being

12:40

redefined by the government and that it

12:42

was going to leave an imprint for

12:44

a very long time. And I, for

12:46

one, never doubted that

12:48

that's why he was in it, right?

12:50

He wasn't in it for all

12:52

of the trappings of power. He was in

12:55

it to make a

12:57

very substantial change in the direction of his

12:59

country. And I really admire that, whether you

13:01

agree with what, where he wanted to take

13:03

it or not. It's been quoted

13:05

in the press since he passed a

13:07

few days ago, many

13:10

times, that he believed that political

13:12

capital, you accumulate political capital to

13:14

spend it. And I think

13:16

he did that. And he left office famously

13:19

with very little of it. Probably

13:22

had a bit of a deficit

13:24

of political capital when he left

13:26

and left a deficit to his

13:28

party. But you can't doubt

13:30

for a moment that he accomplished

13:32

big things while he was there, which is

13:35

the point of being there in the first

13:37

place. I don't want to argue with you

13:39

on one thing. He did enjoy the trappings

13:41

of power. Well, you

13:44

were closer to it

13:46

than I was. But I mean, his

13:48

main focus, as you say quite correctly,

13:50

was on big things and big changes

13:53

in his view to make the country better. Yeah, there's

13:55

no doubt about that. Yeah, that saying goes, right? Two

13:57

kinds of people in politics. politics

14:00

was one of these something and those want to do something.

14:02

He clearly wanted to do something, but he knew he had

14:04

to be something to do something. So he had, but he

14:06

had the, he had the wagon

14:08

in the right sequence behind the horse. And

14:10

the politics like, you know, you say Peter

14:12

about how that he was a real

14:15

partisan. He was an elbows up guy and all that.

14:17

Well, you have to be, but

14:19

there's a difference between saying the

14:21

party, the policies of Pierre Elliott Trudeau over

14:23

the fullness of time will make the country

14:25

weaker and need to be stopped and saying

14:27

that Pierre, Pierre Elliott Trudeau is a, is

14:29

a traitor to the country and he can't

14:31

be trusted. And he's an evil man. Like

14:33

there is a line there and some

14:37

of your partisans may take the first part and

14:39

bridge it to the second, but you don't cross

14:41

that line. You don't cross that bridge. And as

14:43

an example of that, like he was a true

14:45

Federalist and a proud Federalist. He

14:47

chaired the note committee in 1980 referendum. And

14:50

I didn't realize this until, until I was

14:53

watching a documentary about this, but so he

14:55

chaired it in 1987 as,

14:57

as Mitch was wrapping up when

14:59

Renee Leveque passed away in the

15:03

face of a lot of anger, still

15:06

about the legacy and debated by the legacy

15:08

of Renee Leveque's contribution to Canada. Brian

15:10

Maroney ordered all federal government

15:13

buildings in the province of Quebec, the flag

15:15

to be at half mast and

15:17

all, all the flags in Ottawa, including the flag

15:19

over the peace tower, because he said Renee

15:21

Leveque is a Québécois, which means he is

15:24

a Canadian and we honor his contributions to

15:26

Canada and his contributions to Quebec

15:28

by extension. Therefore his contributions to Canada and we

15:30

respect this man and what he's done. And that

15:32

built him a lot. And it was, and it

15:34

was after 1987 that he approached Jacques

15:38

Parrazzo and offered him a seat in the

15:41

Senate to try to build the coalition of

15:43

people who would be on side and

15:46

be advocates for Mitch, which was

15:48

to say to be advocates for

15:50

a deal that Premier Borossa was

15:52

pushing in the Quebec National Assembly,

15:54

which would in his view, get

15:56

Quebec's full consent to, to finish

15:58

off the repatriation. of the

16:00

Constitution and to bring Quebec into

16:03

the Canadian family with sort of

16:05

full embrace. So

16:07

a tactical politician who understood the

16:10

importance of respecting other people's contributions, even if

16:12

you disagree with them, but there's a rhetorical

16:14

line that you don't cross. Really

16:17

impressive and his, and so the things

16:19

that he did, and I also didn't,

16:21

I didn't appreciate that as well. June

16:24

11th, 1983, he becomes leader of the

16:26

Progressive Conservative Party, the first leader

16:28

of the Conservative Party from the province of Quebec. He was

16:30

1983. 83.

16:32

It took that long for us to have a,

16:34

as conservatives to have a leader from the province

16:36

of Quebec. Chiré would eventually, of course, follow that,

16:40

but that's how long and how deep in the

16:42

woods the conservative movement was and has been in

16:45

terms of its rapport, shmall, and engagement and understanding

16:47

of the province of Quebec and being able to

16:50

reflect Quebecers as aspirations, anxieties,

16:52

fears, and expectations of

16:54

federal government back to it by having

16:56

Brian Mulroney as leader. And the lessons

16:58

that he taught the conservative movement in

17:00

particular about nation building and the

17:02

importance of bringing the Canadian family together

17:05

and bringing Quebecers into the conservative movement,

17:08

it will last for many, many, many

17:10

decades. You know, I'm glad you mentioned

17:13

the 87, you know, the

17:15

death of Levesque, because I'd forgotten

17:18

about it. It said something

17:20

remarkable about Canada and you're right,

17:22

Mulroney, help lead the way on

17:25

the lowering of flags on federal buildings.

17:28

But I went to Quebec City for the

17:30

funeral. And here

17:32

was this guy who had tried to break up

17:35

the country and, you

17:37

know, had done the 1980 referendum

17:39

and he'd said all the

17:41

things he said about the need for Quebec to be

17:44

its own nation. And yet

17:46

there behind his hearse were

17:49

the prime minister, the former prime

17:51

minister in Trudeau as well,

17:54

the premiers, a lot of

17:57

the premiers. It was a

17:59

remarkable scene. Of it

18:01

really did say something about how

18:03

we're different than almost anybody else.

18:06

I just can't imagine that seen

18:08

elsewhere say anywhere in the world

18:10

that heard about that kind of

18:12

for aura to it's am. An

18:16

added you know that said something I guess about

18:18

Mulroney, but it said something I think above. And

18:21

Canada in general am what

18:23

can the politicians have today

18:26

learn from. Had

18:28

a wave more Rooney conducted politics

18:30

a minute. Did the sense that.

18:33

Now. Referred lot of stories over

18:35

these last few days about how

18:37

he reach out behind the scenes

18:40

am. To liberals, we always knew

18:42

about how you'd reach out. Often.

18:45

Behind the scenes to his own party, And

18:47

help maintain loyalty and gave him peace. All

18:49

mps the had the sense that they made

18:51

they could make a difference and they could

18:53

talk to the leader and they could have

18:56

doing with the leader at twenty four Suspects

18:58

or have lunch with him and and you

19:00

know and try to impress him on on

19:02

on. There are issues that he went out

19:04

of his way to do that. a lot

19:06

of other be prime minister's haven't done that

19:08

at their peril have for some. But.

19:12

What? Way. What do you think?

19:15

We can learn from from Mulroney or

19:17

at least the politicians have today can

19:20

learn from Mulroney. James you start a

19:22

sister be as show law on that

19:24

one piece. Write about personal relationships it's

19:26

so fundamental you know and and you

19:28

talk to any former leader, former premier

19:31

from a prime minister our bleed or

19:33

cool it didn't send to the ox

19:35

the prime minister about how much their

19:37

mental Gdp was devoted to deal with

19:40

caucus management issues and and what a

19:42

stress at and all that because it

19:44

our system yet Video Louisville. Blair

19:46

about one or two percent of Canadians in

19:48

a lifetime or every member of a political

19:50

party. there's There's deference to political parties, Nurse

19:52

deference to governments are in our culture and

19:54

although some reason for that it's to the

19:57

shortest Arkansas and but but but there is

19:59

and so. When it when there's

20:01

disunity in a caucus run a cabinet, it's

20:03

it's a reflection that the leader must not

20:05

be have a strong hand and must not

20:07

be being respected by his or her to

20:10

team and therefore maybe I shouldn't trust and

20:12

soaps when you have backbenchers, weathered stone and

20:14

xiadao or. Or others,

20:16

you know what? We had built a see a

20:18

rather eat of Danny Williams is a printer breaking

20:21

away from the Could Serve movement and Stephen Harper's

20:23

Coming. I'm in a when you

20:25

when that happens. I think a lot of people's

20:27

or take a step back because they say it's

20:29

a reflection of internal capacity and I remember. Who.

20:32

Yeah, I should office as prominent as

20:34

which. Seven years after the To See

20:36

Progress concert of showing Ninety Ninety Three

20:38

campaign and I remember going around between

20:40

two thousand and and some concern a

20:42

party can. It was created two thousand

20:44

and three in that window and I

20:46

was a can any line sent the

20:48

when we were trying to bring the

20:50

parties together. How many people get. Ten

20:53

years after the to seat defeat of

20:55

nineteen, Ninety Three were absolute Brian Mulroney.

20:57

Oil costs like their party had been

20:59

crushed and decimated. Some would you blame

21:02

the campaign of Kim Campbell by come

21:04

on me, the foundations late for whole

21:06

experience which we can build. talk about

21:08

minutes but that personal loyalty and the

21:11

and the don't know. Come. Out

21:13

and Mcnally and distance unwillingness to break

21:15

yeah a decade later from the party

21:17

and to term walked away from the

21:19

Progressive Conservative banner in the Legacy a

21:21

primer it's and still defending the Gst

21:23

and still defending even after meet going

21:25

on to Charlottetown and and sort of

21:27

obsessing about as about constitutional question and

21:29

and getting a deal for Quebec and

21:32

getting a new constitution for the whole

21:34

country that would say embraced everybody and

21:36

spinning years and years and years on

21:38

the this in the face of other

21:40

challenges the country faced and they would

21:42

still. defend that ten years later it's

21:44

spoke to serve his that the person

21:46

on bridges or that he belt and

21:48

i think as i think he understood

21:51

that once you have a fracturing of

21:53

that personal loyalty of the people who

21:55

know you best ah and as as

21:57

a symbol of was a year the

21:59

solitaire that people should trust in you

22:01

as a prime minister, not being

22:03

afraid and how important that was. I think

22:06

that's a real lesson for leaders, that you have

22:08

to spend time building those relationships because

22:11

of all the things that didn't go well for his

22:14

government and didn't go well for him politically, he

22:17

had the iron backbone of

22:19

the majority of his caucus

22:21

for years after he left office. Now, setting aside

22:24

the Bouchard issue, setting aside the reform

22:26

party issue, which were sort of tectonic things, but

22:28

those who are with him who are ride or die, right up until

22:30

those breakaway moments, stayed

22:34

with him all the way up until today, you'll

22:36

see them defending his

22:38

legacy forever for eternity. They

22:41

still have gatherings on September

22:43

4th each year to remember the September 4th victory

22:45

in 1984, which

22:50

at the time was the, and it still

22:52

is, the largest majority government that any

22:55

party has achieved in this country. Jerry,

22:58

on this point, just to follow

23:00

James, sir. Well,

23:02

I think the most important thing that Mr.

23:05

Mulroney could teach today's generation

23:08

and tomorrow's politicians is just

23:10

how important relationships are. And

23:13

those are relationships with your caucus, absolutely.

23:15

I agree with everything James said, but

23:18

it's also relationships with your

23:20

adversaries and relationships with your

23:23

colleagues internationally. I

23:25

think that it's coming out in some of

23:28

the coverage, reflecting on

23:30

his legacy at his passing, but I

23:32

don't think Mr. Mulroney ever got the

23:34

credit in Canada. He deserved, for instance,

23:36

for apartheid. And

23:39

if you speak

23:41

to a British public

23:43

servant or an American public servant

23:46

or a foreign service officer

23:49

from that period, that

23:51

is the thing that they remember about

23:53

Brian Mulroney. And I think

23:55

it's important for people to appreciate just

23:57

how difficult that must have been for

23:59

him. to do because

24:02

when you're sitting around, let's just take

24:04

the G7 table as the primary example,

24:07

sometimes G8, now G7. The

24:10

two natural allies around that table

24:12

for Canada are the United States

24:14

of America and the United Kingdom.

24:17

In fact, the OR presence at

24:19

that table to the United States

24:21

of America and little known piece

24:25

of history, it was Gerald Ford

24:27

that insisted that Canada be part

24:29

of the G7 in the first

24:31

place. It's really difficult

24:33

to go against both those people

24:35

on a core moral issue where

24:38

you are pretty much accusing

24:40

them of having

24:42

their, if not being immoral in

24:44

their foreign policy stance, certainly not

24:47

having their moral

24:49

compass aligned quite to

24:51

true north. And

24:53

Brian Mulroney had built a strong

24:55

enough relationship with both the President

24:57

of the United States and

24:59

the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Margaret

25:01

Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, two enormous

25:04

personalities, the two people who dominated

25:07

his political movement globally. And

25:10

he was able to disagree with them on

25:12

a principled basis and remain

25:15

not only friends, but have

25:17

a constructive working relationship with both

25:19

of them bilaterally. That's

25:21

a truly remarkable feat of diplomacy when you

25:23

think about it. And

25:26

spoke at their funerals. And

25:29

spoke at both of their funerals. Yeah.

25:31

Right? Like, what does that

25:33

say? Is that on a very public stage and in

25:35

a very self-righteous way earned, but

25:38

in a very self-righteous way, distinguish

25:40

himself against both of those

25:42

leaders and then later was

25:44

invited by them and their families and their dying

25:47

days to speak at their funerals. I mean, disagreeing

25:50

with somebody about how they're confronting

25:52

or not confronting apartheid in South

25:54

Africa and not showing sufficient solidarity

25:57

with Nelson Mandela. And

25:59

then, 10. 20 years later being

26:02

invited to provide the eulogy

26:04

at their funerals to speak about their

26:06

character. I mean, that's a

26:08

pretty dramatic bond and also a sense of deep

26:11

respect about how he chose

26:14

to go about his descent

26:16

publicly and to speak

26:18

about the descent publicly in speeches and

26:20

in books and in

26:23

interviews for many many years afterwards and

26:25

not do so in a way that

26:27

was so great in our self-righteous that

26:30

it alienated you from your friends that

26:32

being disagreeing being in

26:34

disagreement without being disagreeable That

26:37

capacity is again enormously impressive.

26:39

And it's well in being a in being a

26:42

good winner again, right? That

26:44

and I don't want to create the impression Peter

26:46

that Revelation I think too much has made at

26:48

this point you hear it all the time They

26:50

have a good relationship that they can work this

26:52

out a good relationship in and of itself Is

26:55

not enough to smooth over or

26:58

resolve policy problems But

27:00

without a good relationship every

27:02

problem Gets more difficult

27:04

to solve and Mulroney

27:06

understood that better than any politician

27:08

in my lifetime Is

27:11

that it not the exact point is that had it explained

27:13

to me like that? Like if you ever bought a car

27:15

or wanted to buy a car and you see a car

27:17

and you say I Can't believe how

27:19

good a car like I can't believe it's it's

27:21

only that much That's exactly what I want and

27:23

it's here and I and they're offering for them

27:26

But you don't like the sales guy. So I just don't like

27:28

that guy. I don't want it I don't

27:30

want it. I don't want a piece of this is

27:32

gonna be his commission I don't want to do business

27:34

with that guy not interested. So like, you know, there's

27:36

there's a cat There's a there's a

27:39

dynamic of that that's in public life as

27:41

well, right? I like I like

27:43

the South Africa story

27:45

and the discussion around Mulroney's

27:48

value on the end of apartheid and and

27:50

and the you know the release of Mandela

27:53

all of that because I

27:55

like Jerry and I think I assume you too

27:58

as well James don't think that Mulroney gets

28:00

enough credit at home for that. I think

28:02

he gets a lot of credit outside of

28:04

Canada for it. I don't think Canadians themselves

28:06

recognize how important a role

28:09

that he played and in fact we played

28:11

in making that happen. But

28:15

there were two important lessons and he was never

28:17

shy about talking to them, talking about them about

28:19

his position. I mean it grew out of his

28:22

early days as a youth

28:24

PC member and Diefenbaker's move

28:26

in 59 and 60 to

28:28

have South Africa pushed out of the Commonwealth

28:31

over apartheid. But he

28:34

made it happen in the 80s with

28:36

the help of two people, Joe Clark,

28:38

who felt equally the

28:41

same and they'd had

28:43

their obvious rough relationship

28:46

over time. But his UN

28:48

ambassador, Canada's UN ambassador where

28:50

he reached over political

28:52

partisan lines got Stephen Lewis on

28:55

board. And Stephen

28:57

Lewis talks about and Mulroney has

28:59

talked about their relationship and their

29:01

common bond on making that

29:03

work. But still having said all that,

29:06

trying to imagine what it must have

29:08

been like for him and

29:10

those private sessions with Thatcher, the

29:13

Iron Lady and basically wagging

29:16

his finger at her. I'm not sure he

29:18

wagged his finger but you can see them

29:20

in the confrontation and Mulroney saying to her,

29:24

Margaret you're putting your country

29:26

on the wrong side of history here. You've

29:28

got to rethink this position. That

29:31

took as a degree of courage

29:36

that you don't often see or at least

29:38

we don't often hear about. True.

29:41

But to answer your point about Prime

29:43

Minister Clark and drawing him into

29:45

his government, as

29:48

you said, I think in the beginning, it

29:50

was a pretty ugly ambitious campaign around

29:52

when they competed against each other for the leadership in 76

29:54

and 79 and the defeat in 80 and all of that.

30:00

It was not a clean, smooth transition from

30:02

one to the other, but the assembly of

30:04

a team of rivals. And in part,

30:07

it's because, you know, his state's been shipping

30:09

his capacity to build bridges and to build

30:11

these personal relationships. That's all true. But

30:14

I think part of the, part

30:16

of the mortar that binds those bricks

30:18

together is also it's

30:20

not just personality and being able to get along

30:23

with people. It's part of it. But the other part of it

30:26

is having a focus agenda and clarity, and

30:29

having people buy into an agenda

30:31

and people consent to working together

30:33

for a bigger goal. And

30:35

for the sake of the conservative movement, that's always

30:37

been the case, right? We say as conservatives that

30:40

liberals need to love their leaders, but conservatives need

30:42

to respect our leaders. We don't really love our

30:44

leaders, but we respect them. And we respect them

30:46

in different ways because we, it's either

30:50

because of their resume values and

30:52

their abilities and their accomplishments and sort

30:54

of their difference. Or more often is

30:56

the case, it's that, but it's assisted

30:59

with a focus agenda and

31:01

clarity. And what Brian Mulroney wanted

31:03

to do later, particularly with regard to Meach

31:05

and Free Trade, those two things, brought

31:08

a lot of people together across

31:10

differing boundaries and differing aspirations and

31:13

focus on this. I mean, there's

31:15

a private sector example of this, right?

31:18

Like the greatest

31:20

non-governmental movement in North America

31:22

in our lifetimes was Mothers

31:24

Against Drunk Driving, right? Which

31:26

focused relentlessly on blood

31:28

alcohol levels and equipment. And they said, I don't

31:30

care if you're pro-life, Republican, pro-choice,

31:32

pro-gun, anti-gun, I don't care about any of those things.

31:34

If you're focused and you believe that we have to

31:37

have tougher drunk driving laws, you're welcome in our movement.

31:39

And they did that and they've moved the needle massively

31:41

when it comes to drunk driving laws. Well, Brian Mulroney,

31:45

his relentless pursuit of an agenda

31:47

that Canadians across regional boundaries, across

31:49

linguistic barriers, across historic grievances across

31:51

the law can focus and be

31:53

committed to something, a big project,

31:56

Free Trade and nationally through a

31:58

renewed constitution in Meach. that

32:00

ability to open the doors and bring people

32:02

in focused on that agenda and then have

32:04

the charm layered on top of it. That

32:07

was the secret sauce, I think, of

32:10

his success and free trade defeat in

32:12

Meacham later, Charlottetown. But that was his

32:14

formula, is getting people to focus on

32:17

something bigger than themselves and

32:19

to feel part of it. And sort of

32:21

endless energy towards a limited

32:23

list of goals is, again,

32:26

one of the lessons that

32:28

politicians, regardless of

32:30

background or partisanship, can take from his time

32:32

as well. I've got

32:35

to take a break here, but before I

32:37

do, I just want to get a sense from

32:39

you on this. As I

32:41

said at the beginning of the program, when

32:43

somebody of significance passes, people line

32:45

up to say wonderful things about them. And

32:48

a lot of wonderful things have been said about Brian

32:50

Mulroney in the last couple of days. I

32:53

mean, this Prime Minister

32:55

did cause divisions around big issues, big

32:57

subjects. There's no doubt about that. He

33:02

left at

33:04

a time when not everything was nice being said

33:06

about him for a number of different reasons, not

33:10

just some of the issues and policies

33:12

that he pushed. Have

33:16

we been kind of over the top on

33:19

this? I

33:21

don't mean we in terms of this discussion, but

33:23

I mean generally, the kind of

33:25

coverage that's come

33:27

as a result of his passing and

33:30

the kind of level

33:33

at which he's ascended

33:35

to in his passing. Have

33:38

we been over the top, Jerry? Well,

33:42

I don't think so, but I do

33:44

think that there's a great

33:46

paradox at the heart of Brian

33:48

Mulroney's time as Prime

33:50

Minister and its aftermath. On

33:53

the one hand, he's universally lauded

33:55

for conducting these relationships

33:57

with such. sophistication

34:01

and mastery over a

34:03

long period of time, mostly for

34:05

the betterment of the country. But

34:07

on the other hand, his party split

34:09

in three at the end of his leadership. And

34:12

it took a decade to

34:14

put it back together. And you can argue

34:17

that it's never really been back together that

34:19

the current manifestation of the Conservative

34:22

Party is much more like one

34:25

of those three wings and the other two. So

34:28

I think that's

34:30

a huge conundrum when you're reflecting on the

34:32

legacy of Brian Mulroney that we ended up

34:34

with a durable,

34:37

separatist federal party in

34:39

Parliament for what's going

34:41

on now 20-plus years that

34:44

were more 30-plus years than

34:46

dating myself there. And

34:49

we had a protest movement out

34:51

west that refashioned and took over

34:53

the Conservative movement and

34:55

turned it into something that whatever

34:58

you think of it, it's not what Brian Mulroney would

35:00

have led. So I think

35:02

that that's a really difficult

35:06

paradox of Brian Mulroney's leadership

35:09

that on the one hand, everybody

35:11

he touched has nothing but good things to say

35:13

about him. But on the other hand, the

35:15

party that he led split in three

35:17

never to be reunited. Are

35:20

people being too kind? I think there's a grace that's

35:22

being shown to Brian Mulroney now in the days after

35:24

his passing that was also shown to Pierre-Elliott

35:26

Trudeau. That was shown earlier this year as

35:28

well to Ed Broadbent and others. I just

35:30

think there's a decency

35:33

that's owed and earned.

35:36

And so there's that. There has been debate

35:39

over the years about his record. To

35:41

Jerry's point, and we can talk about some of

35:43

the lessons that Brian Mulroney come from the defeats

35:45

and from the failings and disappointments of his time.

35:48

To your point, though, Jerry, about the progressive

35:51

Conservative Party blowing up after his

35:53

leadership. It's

35:57

the back edge of the knife blade that you talked

35:59

about. Earlier right that you

36:01

build political cap only spammed it's he

36:03

a spent it right and so that

36:05

he other the the coil that's packed

36:07

most tightly explodes more violently am because

36:09

the pressure that you put on it

36:11

and keep a lot of pressure from

36:13

their on the coalition in the movement.

36:15

And you know when when you say

36:17

to Western Canadians yeah that's tobacco be

36:19

distinct society within a constitution to be

36:21

determined later by the courts what that

36:24

means A lot of western populist kind

36:26

of guy. Don't. Really know that I'm

36:28

powerful with that right and you have a guarantee

36:30

of senate seats Me of a guarantee of does

36:32

that have a a of have seats, sit in

36:34

a house and and is like his there's there's

36:36

a dynamic their that that is to not truffles,

36:38

lot of people and self Tcg road that edge

36:41

as far as he could try to get the

36:43

accomplishment and in a blue or up and and

36:45

get be can google typed what that an ago

36:47

if is after the break shortly but time but

36:49

in your question for you though as or he

36:51

over the top I don't think so because I

36:53

think this is the this is a good of

36:56

Canada where it. We were talking you note

36:58

that and nicely but be won by the i do

37:00

hate it I have say I hate. I

37:03

hate this part about about the about tribute the you

37:05

see I could he be that and know who I

37:07

an umbrella I know who was dominican it do deuterium

37:09

and sort of have to be my own point of.

37:12

Blair, explore our aim. People safe, You know, primaries

37:15

past with, you know, I don't I never voted

37:17

for the guy and I totally disagreed with him

37:19

but isn't really so sad is slated? Leave the

37:21

first part out to be gracious, Be nice. Let's

37:24

assume that seven and a drive and passes with

37:26

it or not any democrat. I never would

37:28

have voted for the I disagree with the math

37:30

but boy what a lot. Just leave the person

37:32

first part out to be nice to be good.

37:34

a three day I will cause I was or

37:37

less advanced. Drives me crazy when I see that

37:39

alt and like you don't really I know you're

37:41

an Mvp member of parliament to the deputy leader.

37:43

Eat out yeah your or your way. We know

37:46

you don't grieve time already, don't have to would

37:48

be like that in your base knows that you're

37:50

gonna do next. Fund raising letter will get a

37:52

return distance and I will. I will note before

37:54

you gotta break Peter that there was one very

37:57

prominent. Canadian you did not have

37:59

supported Pure. The Trio That Grace

38:01

period after he passed and

38:03

published a screed against him

38:05

the day of his funeral

38:07

in The National Post and

38:09

that prominent medium with Stephen

38:11

Justice Harper. Oh.

38:16

Well that's another story

38:18

that was a forgery.

38:21

Ah, okay, we're gonna

38:23

take that term at

38:25

that break and be

38:27

right back after this.

38:40

And will come back here listening

38:42

to the list of the more

38:44

mosque officers. Not surprisingly James Moore

38:47

and Juri Bots We're talking about

38:49

the impact of Brian Mulroney on

38:51

now on the country and on

38:53

not politics in our country Am.

38:57

We've only got a few minutes.

38:59

last. ah, the first half was

39:01

really. The first

39:03

three quarters of of our time slots?

39:05

Bad. A Here's what I wouldn't mind.

39:08

an eye on the final side. When

39:10

you you. Both. Skyn of introduce

39:12

little bits of. Your. Own

39:14

personal stories or your awareness

39:17

of certain stories that involve

39:19

Brian Mulroney am. I'm.

39:21

On early goal, little further and

39:24

deeper down in the memory bank

39:26

and until us as people loved

39:28

a D Anecdotes and on and

39:30

off personal anecdotes about tough issues

39:32

and day and other people am.

39:35

So. Yeah, gimme gimme something on

39:37

on that front. Something that arrests

39:39

that either a have impacted you

39:41

personally or you know of. Others

39:44

said he impacted my. Something

39:47

he did or said am years and yeas the

39:49

i going to fail and okay if it is

39:51

in a book on there is a good bit

39:53

funny A pretty good because it's a enough to

39:56

man it with an incredible sense of humor right?

39:58

If you lie to the hit that it. Hideously

40:00

be speeches so. Going

40:03

into the Way Back machine ah Bikini Line

40:05

it's created making any Ninety Nine Reform party

40:07

couldn't gain to become an after party. Where

40:10

were your training? were trying to come on

40:12

be the new national sort of party and

40:14

two thousand election campaigns there's a going on

40:16

stock all day wins it came and suppress

40:18

the many came in second place in third

40:21

place is Tom. Long time long was a

40:23

campaign manager for Mike Harris and Ninety Five

40:25

be a well respected notice her to move

40:27

and hadn't run for office before it's and

40:29

it was discovered by The National Post and

40:32

a few others that. I'm dead. People

40:34

were showing up in the membership of

40:36

the Conservative party or member the spirits.

40:38

There was one riding. In. The

40:40

Gasp a peninsula gas be Islam

40:42

Medlin I'm writing which prior to

40:44

the leadership race had a bad

40:46

both three and a half members.

40:49

Maybe as know membership at all and then

40:51

a pop investigation there were of there was

40:53

something like thirteen hundred members of the party

40:55

in this one riding A for how that

40:58

what is how does that happen? So course

41:00

reporters go to the gas busy and they

41:02

get the membership list which is available. Now

41:04

to the other contestants leadership they said you

41:07

here's a list of thirteen hundred people in

41:09

this writing that had three members before leadership

41:11

started to knock on doors nason how they

41:13

became and the party and one by one

41:16

they went to the Lesnar. Pretty they did.

41:18

So what happened. On the back end With

41:20

that people who were hired in one of

41:22

the campaigns does turn out to be Tom

41:25

ones can't in ah in Taunton know apparently

41:27

is that people were paid a commission for

41:29

signing people up. riders of there was a

41:31

reward system sign somebody of sports so people

41:33

were going to the phone books and signing

41:35

people up and submitting it and then getting

41:38

a commission on the on the back end

41:40

of as memberships I use a huge scandal

41:42

eventually be effectively sent Tom's tendency for leadership

41:44

but. Others something like twelve hundred

41:46

people who joined the party miss When running this out

41:48

of there are people who were dead. Their

41:51

bid died many years ago and they

41:53

are now active members as conservative party

41:55

purely because they were railroad glee signed

41:58

up by some corrupt apparatchik was. The

42:00

get some kind of a commission on on this

42:02

membership sign up Primal already was asked about this

42:04

ascent when you tv heard the story. there are

42:06

people who works, dad who were showing up in

42:08

a conservative party membership and and all this like

42:11

the is that crazy how the with is what

42:13

would he would your thoughts and brom already pause

42:15

He said. Well, I don't know

42:17

about that. The What I do

42:19

know. Is that when I die? I.

42:22

Hope I'm buried in the gas.

42:24

Daisy still participated considered. As.

42:29

A dispersant. I'm already.

42:31

that's absolutes. Jerry, you

42:33

got one. Yeah,

42:35

I've got, I've got to. One's pretty

42:37

light hearted at the other, one is

42:39

really sweet that I'd like to and

42:42

with because it sounded like and remember

42:44

Mister Miller it apes. The first one

42:46

was he made a admittedly rare misstep.

42:48

I can't even remember what he said,

42:51

but he said something he shouldn't have

42:53

said during and after negotiations As a

42:55

kid, he was revealing something that we

42:57

talked about privately and that would we

42:59

didn't want it out there in the

43:02

public and he immediately knew that it

43:04

screwed up. It. Was on the frontpage The Global

43:06

Mail. So. Derek

43:08

Bernie I come into the office early

43:10

in the morning. And

43:13

I've got two messages from Derek

43:15

Bertie who for your listeners af

43:17

was Prime Minister already Steve staff

43:19

and then a distinguished ambassador to

43:22

the United States for Canada. At

43:25

called be. Two. Or three times

43:27

I already had a voice mail from

43:29

so I called him back and I

43:31

said so i think I know why

43:34

you're calling turkey and he said yes

43:36

mister already really miss stabbed and he's

43:38

sorry etc etc and he had this

43:40

long speech for lie, Brian story and

43:42

I paused and I said derek i

43:45

think what you're really telling me as.

43:48

These. Jobs are a life sentence.

43:51

that derek with still doing the job that

43:53

he thought it last twenty years of gas

43:55

and of course brian call themselves and said

43:58

to know told the private as very

44:00

sorry and I did not mean to say

44:02

what I said, Jerry, etc, etc. So

44:05

I thought that was quite revealing and again

44:07

reflective of how he maintained his relationships over

44:09

a long period of time because

44:11

not every leader of

44:14

every party maintains such devoted

44:16

relationships from their staff over time

44:19

to say the least. And

44:21

then the last thing and I

44:23

think this is more reflective of

44:25

Mr. Melroni's thoughtfulness and his personality.

44:27

He loves St. Francis Xavier University

44:29

and as you know I'm a

44:31

proud Kate Breitner and half

44:34

of my extended family went to

44:36

Todd at, protested at

44:38

St. Francis St. FX as we'd call it

44:40

back home. And my aunt,

44:42

Sister Peggy Butts, taught at St.

44:45

FX and was an honorary doctorate there

44:47

and Mr. Melroni

44:49

was quite fond of her and

44:51

he knew of my

44:54

special relationship with her and how she was

44:56

a mentor to me. And

44:58

as you both know there was

45:00

established a few years ago the

45:02

Melroni School of Policy Studies at

45:04

St. Francis Xavier University and about

45:06

a year after we, after I'd

45:08

left the Prime Minister's Office,

45:11

Brian sent me a note and he said

45:13

I just want you to know that we've

45:15

received the first round of applicants

45:17

for the Sister Peggy Butts

45:20

Memorial Scholarship to go to the Melroni

45:22

School at St. FX. And

45:25

it just struck me how persistent

45:28

he was in the things that he

45:30

thought mattered to the people who mattered

45:32

to him. I never asked for

45:34

it, never would have thought of it,

45:37

but he just, he picked up on

45:39

something in our many conversations over the

45:41

years that he knew that would be

45:44

particularly meaningful to me and

45:46

my family and he was absolutely

45:48

right. You know, Susan

45:50

Delacorte, headline on

45:53

her column yesterday or over the

45:55

weekend was, it's

45:58

hard to imagine. kind of world without

46:01

Brian Mulroney in it in some fashion. And

46:04

she's right on. It is going to be hard to imagine.

46:07

We're going to hear that voice a lot. You'll

46:09

hear it in your head. It's one you

46:11

can't forget, especially if you get a phone call

46:14

from him. You knew immediately

46:17

who it was. Anyway,

46:20

listen, this is a great conversation. I think we've all

46:22

learned some lessons through the things

46:24

you've had to tell us. And

46:28

we look forward to the next More Butts conversation

46:30

whenever that may be in the next month or

46:32

so. But for this one, thank

46:34

you both. I'm glad we talked

46:36

about it. Well,

46:39

there you go. The More Butts conversation number

46:41

14, Jerry Butts,

46:44

James Moore. And

46:47

I love those conversations. Love

46:49

them. And I think you do as well.

46:52

We don't have them every week.

46:54

It's usually separated by about six weeks and

46:57

you'll see or hear

46:59

both these gentlemen and in their

47:01

more partisan roles at other

47:04

times. But on this conversation,

47:08

they speak to

47:10

the business of politics in Canada

47:12

in a way I don't think

47:14

we get a chance to hear from anywhere

47:17

else. And it's

47:19

a great conversation to have

47:21

and to listen to. And I hope you've enjoyed

47:24

it as well. And thank you

47:26

for listening to this on-corridition of the bridge.

47:28

It was from March the 5th, More

47:32

Butts conversation number 14

47:35

about Brian Mulroney. Thanks

47:37

for listening.