0:01

One thing that I've noticed interviewing

0:03

all these great salespeople and sales

0:05

leaders is that if they happen

0:07

to cross the path

0:10

of having a great mentor or a

0:12

great leader early in their career it

0:15

saves them just an enormous amount

0:17

of time. One,

0:20

because they learn the right way of

0:22

doing things, they're

0:24

able to kind of hijack

0:27

their judgment skills, some of the

0:29

most advanced and important skills of

0:31

determining what to work on, in

0:34

what order, in what way. And

0:37

of course the inverse is true

0:39

as well. If you happen to

0:41

get stuck with a bad sales

0:44

manager or sales leader or somebody who

0:46

thinks that sales is purely

0:48

activity, that there's no

0:51

real unique talent or

0:53

skill to it, then

0:56

you kind of have a

0:58

misguided belief about what sales

1:00

is. And I mean if

1:02

you were on LinkedIn and you thought, oh this

1:05

is what sales is? Doing a

1:07

bunch of dumb things all day long? Trying

1:10

to find a new tool to

1:13

find more people to abuse? That's

1:15

the way to sell or

1:17

come up with some new gimmick to

1:20

get them to give you 15 minutes

1:23

of their time? That's

1:25

not selling. That's hounding

1:28

and bombarding people. Today's

1:31

guest is one of

1:33

those great sales leaders. And

1:36

what he's done really well

1:38

is empathize with his team.

1:40

Understand what they're up against.

1:42

Go out with them. Help

1:45

them instead of counting

1:48

what they do. They

1:50

help make what they do count.

1:54

Let's get into this interview. I hope

1:56

you'll enjoy it. I'll sum it up at the end.

1:59

And I also want to make you

2:01

aware we got two certified people,

2:04

facilitators, instructors who have been in

2:06

the courses for multiple years. You've

2:08

heard them on the one-on-ones if

2:10

you're in the course. What

2:14

I'm offering now, well what

2:16

you can get is on-site

2:18

customized training and if

2:20

you're interested hit me up on LinkedIn or

2:23

on the website b2brevenue.com.

2:26

Also, how do

2:28

you get better at anything? You do it

2:30

over and over again and

2:32

people make the misguided belief that I've

2:35

been in this for n number of

2:37

years. I don't need to

2:39

practice. I don't need to warm

2:41

up. I don't need to rehearse.

2:45

Sorry. Sales

2:48

is a performance profession and

2:51

I heard on LinkedIn I

2:53

put a post about brevity and somebody

2:55

said well I

2:58

like to engage with my clients

3:00

and this makes me sound like

3:02

a robot. It's like no it

3:05

doesn't. No. You

3:07

sound like a robot now. You're

3:09

being reactive. None

3:12

of us are MacGyver and if you

3:14

have the MacGyver mentality, MacGyver is it

3:17

was a TV show where the guy

3:19

was in every episode getting stuck in

3:21

this unique predicament and it was his

3:23

job to get out of it. Now

3:26

a lot of people in sales have that mindset. The

3:29

problem is we're not MacGyvers. If

3:33

you want to put your income at

3:35

risk on each call that's up to

3:37

you. Most people are but

3:39

it's your income not mine. If

3:42

you want your income to go

3:44

up maybe a little preparation, a

3:46

little rehearsal, a little trial and

3:48

error where it has zero impact

3:50

on your income would be a

3:52

wise way to do it and

3:56

that's what brevity gives you. It's a yes It's

3:59

AI. But it sounds like

4:01

a real human being. It

4:04

isn't structured. It is

4:06

completely impromptu. Yes what you

4:08

can do is say you

4:10

have a call with Joe

4:12

it whatever company you give

4:14

this Jos website jos linked

4:17

in profile and it comes

4:19

up with a customized conversation

4:21

for you. What is most

4:23

likely gonna happen based off

4:25

a patterns. I.

4:28

Find that insanely valuable? Take your

4:30

manager go to brevitypits.com to check

4:32

it out. Here we go. Erecting

4:40

for joining us today is Reagan started his

4:42

little background on yourself. Yes, If

4:45

a bribe, our first vibe and in

4:47

sales for about thirty years. And

4:49

it's a fine because it's like a tale

4:51

of who careers a first. For years I

4:53

was all over the place. Ah yeah. I

4:55

started out with like every cell squishy. I

4:57

start out selling frozen food. Or.

4:59

Not out the back of the tracks. I

5:01

literally had appointments I have to go into

5:03

people's homes and I knew I was gonna

5:06

go and try to sell it on his

5:08

family once from I personally have no electricity

5:10

so they have nowhere to put the food

5:12

and I think a pretty good on their

5:14

own food. So I was short lived on

5:17

an iso dating services prior to this is

5:19

will long before he harmony I literally either

5:21

get people to come into an office and

5:23

I'd try to sell them dating packages of

5:25

was about four thousand dollars for some these

5:27

packages imagine that. Are and

5:30

then I got into advertising so I

5:32

started on it. had that in a

5:34

more as normal cells or and then

5:36

I got into selling due to be

5:38

cell phones which right when cell phones

5:41

were starting to really become more of

5:43

a are more commonplace. So I literally

5:45

start I'd gone everybody electricians plumbers ago.

5:47

The Bottom of Asia said the a

5:49

large office complex start the bottom not

5:52

in every door he said no soliciting

5:54

just plowed right through. Ah so far

5:56

the first four years and lights that

5:58

guys who are pharmaceuticals. Oh,

6:00

but just sort of. I go along by

6:02

Neil. They were going to take a chance

6:05

on me and Sleds sales experience and then

6:07

I transitioned into law. You know, I was

6:09

with Pfizer for about almost ten years. And

6:12

then I lost sixteen years I

6:14

spent with a company called Eases Sciences

6:16

or at the Diagnostics company based

6:18

in Nashville. So we do a lot

6:21

of testing for know how systems, hospitals,

6:23

addiction treatment centers, You know this

6:25

crazy stuff issue with the food. Is

6:29

this related houses which

6:31

is. So. Loud Rap

6:33

or what and Management after about four

6:35

years in the last eight years I

6:37

spent as the Director. Nice.

6:39

See like all the easy stuff on.

6:41

yeah exactly. You gotta read. Your

6:44

The funny part about it is are

6:47

you know my dad was in sales

6:49

or talk about him? your multiple times

6:51

huge influence on me but he sold

6:53

insurance for about thirty five years. So

6:55

logical movement of and Motors takeovers book

6:57

a business. But I just don't remember

7:00

earlier my prayer meeting him and his

7:02

colleagues for lunch and we would sit

7:04

there and I would listen to them

7:06

to complain, complain about the goals, they

7:08

complain about their boss they complain about.

7:11

you know commission's sales people don't do

7:13

that right? I thought to myself,

7:15

why would I want to get to work

7:17

with is complete a little that I know

7:19

that every salesperson for every company and the

7:21

outside world does the exact same thing. When

7:23

you're twenty two years old you like I

7:25

don't want to do this or so. I

7:27

don't regret it because he had certain issues

7:29

obviously changed dramatically since then. why does your?

7:31

The path I've taken has been a little

7:33

secured? A spoiler Where I am, I'm very

7:35

happy. Love what I do. And

7:38

what was the impetus to get into leadership?

7:42

you'd i had to me every everything i've

7:44

done throughout my career that athletes are you

7:46

know even of what i was in a

7:49

sales role i just i'd always gravitated to

7:51

leadership position i'd sit on comfortable doing it

7:53

i can't explain it i think you know

7:55

real leaders as you can i think they're

7:58

just as feeling this a magnet pool

8:00

that you have. And so I

8:02

knew I love to sell. Don't get me

8:04

wrong in my in my heart I could

8:06

serve myself a salesperson but if

8:09

I can help coach, teach, develop people

8:11

who are also salespeople then that's where

8:13

I get my gratification. When

8:15

I see a salesperson you know succeed or

8:18

a manager you know because at the end

8:20

of the day right my job is as

8:23

a director is to lead

8:25

managers but I can't

8:27

help getting down in the trenches with my reps you

8:30

know getting into the field you know prospecting with

8:32

them calling on existing accounts and so forth. But

8:34

at the end of the day like I get

8:36

the gratification seeing them walk across stage at the

8:38

end of the year you know winning their awards

8:41

and so forth. Yeah it's nice for me to

8:43

win but to tell you the truth

8:46

I'm one of those people that I hate to lose more

8:48

than I like to win. You

8:50

know and if I see a competitor you know not

8:52

one of my colleagues in the same position as me

8:54

winning I'm like you know what did I do wrong?

8:58

Where did I fall short? What

9:00

ones did I push? And

9:02

I still have that drive every single day. And

9:04

what keeps you in this space? It seems

9:07

like it's a tough space. It is

9:09

brutal. I'm a highly competitive diagnostics man.

9:11

I mean it is brutal. 16 years

9:14

and I've seen it all and

9:16

you know there's so much

9:18

you know it's very it's

9:21

like any business. I mean I'm not saying it's you

9:23

need to diagnostics but the rules and

9:25

regulations that exist out there for pharmaceuticals are

9:27

pretty cut and dry. The lab space there's

9:29

a lot of labs out there that kind

9:31

of tip toe through the raindrops and

9:34

hope they don't get caught. And

9:36

unfortunately there's a lot of physicians that

9:39

kind of have

9:41

that same philosophy. So you

9:43

know that's that's the kind of the end of the pool

9:45

I don't play in and I just tell my people you

9:47

know that one of my core values is integrity and

9:50

I've sort of stayed true to that throughout my career and

9:52

I think that's what's kept me in it because

9:54

I don't get into the mud and roll around and that sort

9:57

of thing and And I Love

9:59

the people I work with. I. Truly do

10:01

I've had this this is kind of

10:03

and stay on our leadership team. we

10:05

haven't place now. I think I'll ask

10:07

our about seventy four years combined experience

10:10

in diagnostics all of the same company.

10:13

Ah, err. We know when to push

10:15

each other. We know when to pull

10:17

back away. a mutual respect, a collaborative

10:20

relationship. And you know that's what drives

10:22

me. I don't go somewhere else or

10:24

selling start over. At

10:27

Yale because I just I saw them any good rhythm

10:29

on a cylinder. So much we can still accomplish. And

10:32

I've noticed that when people get into

10:34

leadership and like building some isn't. As

10:37

good as a rapids is fond, you make a ton

10:40

of money. But. It's and a cyclical

10:42

right. He can get a new com

10:44

plan, a new territory he can I

10:46

gotta get get the just meant to

10:48

vast. And. Then you'd few run

10:50

for twelve months and then starts all over

10:52

again. You're. right? Leadership.

10:55

Kind of gives a little bit more

10:57

building. And

10:59

hundred percent not. I think you know sushi

11:01

said that it is. That's what it's about

11:03

for me and I just kind of look

11:05

where we where we started, where we are

11:08

today and just go for me like the

11:10

other people because I hired some the people

11:12

that work for me now I hired them

11:14

and I was a manager items refs and

11:16

that I got promoted I in a broom

11:19

them to move into management positions as well

11:21

so we built that but then taking kind

11:23

of helping the next level of leaders and

11:25

then helping people just see their true value

11:27

in their true potential. Or to

11:29

me that's the fun of it in I am

11:32

a the analogy yesterday and I think you'll appreciate

11:34

that as yeah yeah that's a really good comedians

11:36

are they always say it I thought I would.

11:38

I'd look out of the audience like a zero

11:40

in on that one person who is allowed thing

11:43

and nast the guy on try to make last

11:45

so I locked myself piano like which one of

11:47

my salespeople Micah really focus on and get the

11:49

most out of them. You

11:51

know, and I am. I started doing that. It is Tim

11:53

and my leaders. It's just kind of. Yields.

11:56

Transforms my on my

11:58

leadership approach but. Those people

12:00

can kind of be a little squirrel. we can't

12:02

They. Are yes, no question about

12:04

it. And yeah, I'm afraid that it

12:06

and I said his Autonomy Redditors You

12:09

know, We. Wanna rush

12:11

to be so successful? but the other day you

12:13

can't one it more than they do. right?

12:15

And I see that all the time. You

12:18

know cause it's also not for the other

12:20

territories ripe for the picking like the Bpl,

12:22

the rap from the competitors lab his last.

12:24

So you know it's like right now it's

12:27

right there in or dislike Business sense of

12:29

urgency Management know it's I talk Barrios Summit

12:31

of excellence of President's Circle or whatever companies

12:33

call it and you keep pushing someone and

12:35

then are like you know what you never

12:38

ask me but that doesn't really motivate me.

12:40

He fell several of our element of a

12:42

to me as I want. I like the

12:44

recognize my my peers of my customers and

12:46

I wanna love yeah. I want to make

12:48

money like as for my family. So I think

12:51

one thing that I've really started do It Is

12:53

has challenged my leaders of myself to dig deeper

12:55

insight. No. More by says

12:57

people's lives. Because you

12:59

may think it's one thing or it made me

13:02

think whether it should do about his but it

13:04

compete said a completely different. So if you're managing

13:06

than based on this why in their lives over

13:08

here. You're. Not going to succeed. I

13:11

think that's. Probably. In the

13:13

top three mistakes first time sales

13:15

leaders make is assuming everybody is.

13:18

Identical. To them. If. I

13:20

go to train hire a mirror copy of

13:22

them. He. Arrived. He

13:26

doesn't he have company? Keep it. Can

13:28

you make it? was at right. Now.

13:30

You're right Answer: You might be right exactly my

13:32

you spend a little that that the way our

13:34

number one slot a land on the right number

13:37

but more often thought it was. Almost

13:40

like. Going. From managing

13:42

wraps to weeding, we'd

13:44

see. It. As

13:46

a broader question and I think about that

13:48

a lot to the roads house for me

13:51

is like so I start out with so

13:53

he's people like that I know is they

13:55

were my called slayers a story good good

13:57

fair my we were together since the beginning

14:00

he was more manage when I first got

14:02

into sales for this company that in our

14:04

peers and now I and says us. So.

14:07

Aside from ripping him because we're such good friends,

14:09

I said I was a tremendous challenge and there

14:11

was a lot of friction initially. right? because he

14:13

always I thought out of is hop and out

14:16

of the sky Number one such up to me

14:18

know how did he pass. Ah

14:20

you know I think we just had different

14:22

career trajectory is I wanted something that you

14:24

didn't that silly ones. I think lacing understood

14:26

the you know I was. Going

14:28

to works for him. I wanted. Everything I

14:30

did was designed to help him and his

14:32

reps be successful and I didn't have my

14:35

own agenda. Then the light bulb went on.

14:37

He's like, I guess. He. Would partners

14:39

witness And and that's a real difficult thing

14:41

because almost all the time a leader as

14:43

another agenda right They want to take that

14:45

next up in their career. And but at

14:47

the end up in Rob Reiner mean I'd

14:49

love to be a vice President sales and

14:51

love the of my appeal an entire team

14:54

hundred and it's me. And. I believe

14:56

it will happen in my career. But. It.

14:58

Will happen this time. I'm not obsessed about

15:00

it, I am are preoccupied with I'm focused

15:02

on the here and now developing my readers

15:05

and so what. I do get that opportunity

15:07

that that's personal step up and then the

15:09

rats that I've developed will step in the

15:11

management position. So. Cia.

15:13

By. Some. Reason ego from the

15:15

jaw for hims. Explicit took

15:17

a while. His

15:20

people, the company who don't think I do that by

15:22

yourself out a little bit of an eager to be

15:24

in our business, right? And.in.i

15:26

think that's good. I think that's

15:29

with in of that. Is

15:31

balanced out with some degree ability. In

15:34

I think that's. right?

15:37

Yeah, No. I think a

15:39

lot of leaders don't get certain wraps

15:42

want some autonomy? Sure, I

15:44

because think they need to. Figure.

15:46

Out a little bit out for themselves, don't.

15:50

Know. you're right about that in on and it's

15:52

essentially i mentioned earlier that allah be got this

15:54

field get the trenches and you know i think

15:56

it's is experiencing as i see a lot of

15:58

the polls that you guys out there and

16:00

the question should a manager make cold call,

16:02

should a manager prospect, so on and so forth.

16:05

I mean the question is never

16:07

should a director do it. But for

16:09

my position is, I mean number one, like I

16:11

said earlier, I love to sell. I

16:13

want to be out there on my own sometimes

16:15

because I want to see it with my own options.

16:18

Because by the time it's you know trickles up

16:20

to me, it's been like filtered so much. I don't

16:22

know what's really happening out there and what they're

16:24

telling me is happening out there. So if I spend

16:26

the day and I just and I don't ask

16:28

for anyone's help, I literally tell

16:30

them a rep and I build the day and

16:33

I said okay these are the 12 offices I'm

16:35

prospecting today. And I go in and

16:37

I just say hey we have a new rep coming

16:39

to the market. I just want him to come out.

16:41

I'm doing some pre-work for him so when he gets

16:43

out of training he'll be ready to go you know

16:45

and go through the whole you know the whole process.

16:48

And I've learned so much about our

16:50

business and about certain markets

16:52

and literally about myself you

16:54

know. And I think it gives me credibility

16:56

and it shows everybody that listen I'm not

16:59

I'm not in it for myself. Like I'm not

17:01

afraid to get down and roll up

17:03

my sleeves and find out what you guys are dealing with

17:05

on a day to day basis. And then when I'm talking

17:08

to my boss it's not

17:10

well you know Joe and Marilyn told me

17:12

this. It's like when I was in the

17:14

field in Maryland I saw this and

17:17

this is an issue we need to address now or it's going

17:19

to become worse. So I think

17:21

it just it gives me credibility on all

17:23

different levels of the organization. Yeah

17:25

and understanding and empathy for what

17:27

they're going through. 100 percent that's

17:29

the key. And you

17:31

know too many people who get to the director

17:33

level are watching things through the

17:36

numbers the dashboard. And

17:39

they forget that somebody's entering that stuff

17:41

to make you look a

17:43

certain way. You're so right. That's

17:45

it. I mean that that's it right. I mean that's

17:47

the view I think of a director is sitting at

17:50

your desk looking at numbers pushing emails out and text

17:52

messages. What's going on here. What's wrong with this account.

17:54

They haven't done this. And

17:56

I admit I started that way and I hated it. And

17:58

I was getting burned out. And I

18:00

was losing my passion for the position. I

18:03

said, enough is enough. And I just said,

18:05

I'm going to be in a field as much as possible.

18:08

And first, people would be like, oh my gosh,

18:10

my director is coming to work with me. This

18:12

is going to be a disaster. And once they

18:15

saw that I was there too genuinely to help

18:17

them get better and

18:19

to remove barriers, then everything changed.

18:23

And it's fun for them now, too. They actually say, hey,

18:25

when you're coming out to ride with me. But

18:28

then when you talk to other

18:30

divisions who don't necessarily do that,

18:32

their reps are like, what? Your

18:35

director rode with you? What did you do wrong?

18:39

That's it. If you can teach them that

18:42

you're there to have their back and not

18:44

judge them. That's

18:46

it. Listen, I

18:48

think I instantaneously have some

18:50

credibility because I sold in

18:52

this space. Now, Grant, when I

18:55

sold in this space, it was significantly different than it is now.

18:58

That credibility wears off after a while. And

19:01

I think you have to continually earn it time and time

19:03

again. And there's

19:05

times this time of year

19:07

why I don't want to go up to Maine or New Hampshire. Why

19:10

not? But

19:13

I do because

19:15

I know how important it is. I

19:18

used to have South Carolina and North Carolina,

19:20

Florida. I miss those days because from December

19:22

down to February, I knew which routes I

19:25

was riding with. It was easy. Do

19:28

I go to Indiana? Do I go to Maine? It's

19:33

hard to lead if you don't really understand

19:35

what they're going through. That's

19:37

how I look at it. And

19:39

I think fundamentally, that's probably

19:41

an issue that exists within a lot

19:44

of companies, is

19:46

that lack of understanding. True understanding. You're

19:49

a smart guy. You've sent to a certain position.

19:51

You can put pieces together. But

19:54

ultimately, there's nothing better than seeing and experiencing it

19:56

with your own eyes. I

20:00

used to call it the bunker people.

20:02

They were like the World

20:04

War II analogies where they're pushing

20:06

ships around in tanks. Everything's

20:09

easy in the bunker. It's

20:12

a lot in the front line. Yeah, it's a little bit

20:14

different out there. You can take

20:16

a shrapnel and so forth. And

20:19

the other thing too, and I mentioned my father earlier, and

20:22

he's a huge influence on my life. And

20:24

as I was younger, I don't know how

20:26

he knew, but maybe he didn't. Maybe it

20:28

was just, it's all he knew

20:30

to relate to me because he never played sports. So

20:32

he even tried coaching me in soccer, coaching me in

20:35

baseball the best he could. He'd go to the library,

20:37

get the books, do the drills all nine yards. But

20:39

the one thing he could teach me was life and

20:41

kind of sales and what he knew. I

20:44

mean, I remember specifically and people think I'm

20:46

crazy. I read Think and Grow Rich when

20:49

I was in high school. I read

20:51

How to Win Friends and Influence People in

20:54

High School. When other

20:56

kids are reading, I'm a catcher in the rye. These

20:58

are the books I'm reading. And he instilled that

21:00

in me. And I truly believe, Brian, I don't

21:03

know how you feel about this, but there should

21:05

be high school courses at the very least college

21:07

courses on those 10 books. Seven

21:09

Habits to Highly Effective People and Starts with

21:11

Why. If you bundle a course together with

21:13

those four books, you will

21:15

find your way in life. You

21:17

will have success. Whatever endeavor you choose, you

21:20

will find success. I love you. Does that

21:22

make sense? Those books impactful for you too? Yeah,

21:25

because I think too many of us, school

21:27

was designed for factory workers. Yeah,

21:30

that's true. Good point. And sales, we're

21:33

not talking to strangers all day long.

21:36

No. But we think people

21:38

think logically. Yeah. They

21:41

don't. We don't think about it.

21:43

They say they do. Right. But

21:46

wait till they make a decision. Yeah,

21:48

no, that's true. You're so right about

21:50

that. But I always,

21:52

it's interesting because I really, obviously,

21:54

since I'm a learner, I love

21:57

to read, listen to podcasts, the

21:59

books. on tape and see how

22:01

old I am, books on

22:03

tape. I should have called

22:05

the math on tape or duct tape. That's

22:09

the look I get. I

22:11

really try to get these kids, because a

22:13

lot of them are to me, in their

22:15

20s, early 30s. I get these kids to

22:17

try to do this at a young age

22:19

and make it part of their growth

22:22

and maturity. I see sometimes,

22:24

again, I see stuff on LinkedIn, the

22:27

question will be raised, what

22:29

do you think about sales books or sales

22:31

training and things like that. There's always this,

22:35

I know how to sell. Look

22:37

at baseball players. Before every single game,

22:39

what do they do? They take batting

22:42

practice, they field ground balls.

22:45

Every single day, 162 games a year,

22:47

they do that, because

22:49

they're going to get better. They're going to get a ground ball

22:52

they never had before. They're going to get a pitch they've never

22:54

seen before, and you're going to get better. That's

22:56

when you talk a little bit about brevity,

22:58

there's a plug for you. I think that's

23:00

cool, because I tell my people to practice.

23:03

Record yourself. Just

23:06

watch yourself back. You'll be amazed at

23:08

how bad you are, not much room

23:10

you up for growth. That's

23:13

the kind of stuff I try to instill in these kids. I

23:15

think the

23:17

ones that have had more success than others are the

23:19

ones that buy into it, at least to some degree.

23:22

That's it, because in school, it's a

23:24

test. You're right or you're wrong.

23:27

Or an essay where the

23:30

teacher interprets how good you are. They

23:33

go out in the real world, but

23:35

that's not the way the real world

23:37

works. I bet before you go out in

23:39

the field, you're in the car flipping through

23:41

the pages going, what's the flow

23:43

of the call? What

23:46

questions should I ask? What's

23:48

my opener? How do I engage them? How

23:50

do I get the next step? Yeah,

23:53

100 percent, because I'm not doing it every

23:55

day. I need to do that,

23:58

because you're right. I'll

24:00

do the first call and I'll be like, God, that was terrible.

24:04

But then I noticed as the day goes on and in

24:06

between calls as I'm walking through in my head, it just

24:08

gets better and better and better. So

24:11

I never understood why people don't take advantage

24:13

because when you and I

24:15

were first starting out, the only way, either we

24:17

get our spouse or partner to listen to us,

24:19

which they loved, or we do it in front

24:21

of the mirror. And now

24:24

you have so many vehicles that can

24:26

help give you feedback immediately that

24:29

we don't take advantage of it. And I don't get it

24:31

that. It

24:33

is kind of a different mindset. I found

24:35

that people with performance backgrounds,

24:38

sports, music,

24:41

debating, anything that's subjective,

24:44

where there's a coach, and

24:47

so much of sales is counterintuitive. You're

24:50

right. What

24:52

do you look for in a rep when you're hiring them? You

24:56

know, that keeps evolving. I

24:58

used to have what I thought was

25:00

the perfect blueprint, and then I got

25:02

burnt. And I probably took shortcuts in

25:05

the interview because I was so sure this was the

25:07

right candidate. And I mean, we've all

25:09

done that, right? You're like, oh, this is it. You just

25:11

get that gut feeling and you're like, oh, I don't need

25:13

to ask them that, I know. And then you get them

25:15

into the field and you're like, wow, I screwed

25:17

that one up. You know, so

25:19

now I grill them, man. And I don't want to, listen, anybody

25:22

can put anything they want in their resume and

25:24

you can make what you accomplished in your

25:26

previous company sound like the greatest thing since

25:28

sliced bread, which is another phrase no

25:30

one can use anymore, right? But the

25:33

fact is, I have kind

25:35

of a wheelhouse now, right? You know, for our

25:37

particular space, it's usually somebody that, this

25:40

is gonna be their first job in the medical field.

25:43

I don't necessarily want somebody that's coming from

25:46

pharmaceutical or device or something of that

25:48

nature. I want somebody that's maybe worked

25:50

in like Cintas or Paychex or Enterprise,

25:53

good training. They're knocking on doors, they're

25:55

getting kicked in the teeth, they're

25:57

learning what it takes to build a business. Because

26:00

that person, I can teach them how to sell their

26:02

product. That's easy. It just takes time and

26:04

practice. You can't teach

26:07

that resilience and that persistence and

26:09

that personal accountability. And

26:11

the last probably six or eight hires I've made

26:13

over the last four or five years have all

26:15

fit into that kind of niche, and

26:18

the results have been terrific. So

26:20

I'm not saying that works for everybody, but it's

26:22

been working for us. When

26:25

you made a mistake in the past,

26:27

what question didn't you ask? You

26:30

know, I got back to a hundred times and

26:32

I think about that. And I think for me,

26:34

it comes down to give me an example of

26:37

how you overcame adversity. And

26:39

I don't care if you missed a sale or

26:41

you got yelled at by your boss or you

26:43

got demoted. Whatever that adversity was, I don't care.

26:45

Maybe you got moved from the varsity to JV.

26:47

I don't care how far back you have to

26:49

go, but what did that look like and

26:52

how did you handle it? And tell me what happened next

26:54

in your career. And I didn't

26:56

ask that because I guess maybe I presume

26:58

that the person never faced adversity because they

27:00

were so smooth and they had kind of

27:03

made it to the stage in their career with a relative

27:05

ease. And it

27:07

turned out the first time they got hit with any degree of adversity

27:10

in the job, they were just like a deer in the headlights. They

27:12

didn't know what to do. Okay.

27:16

In your space, a lot of the

27:18

stuff is drop-ins. Is that true? Yeah.

27:22

Right. And they're getting, you

27:25

know, people, let's face it, people

27:27

aren't exactly looking forward to somebody interrupting their

27:29

day. I know. I'm

27:31

a sales person, of course. Yeah. Listen,

27:34

I have 900 things to get done and

27:37

now I've been entertaining you for five minutes.

27:39

Yeah. And that's tough. But,

27:41

you know, when you take the thing, I mean, you know, at the end of the day, I don't

27:43

care what you're selling. It is a numbers game. Now

27:46

you can do things to make the numbers work

27:48

in your favor, obviously, like the things we talked

27:50

about earlier. But the more dials you make, the

27:52

more doors you knock on. Eventually, you're going to

27:54

get somebody to, you're going to connect with people.

27:57

And this person just, he could not get past it.

28:00

that, the rejection and then just

28:02

I kicked myself. But it was a learning experience,

28:04

you know, so I have no regrets at the

28:06

end of the day because I learned from it.

28:08

I've gotten better as a leader and a better

28:10

as a hiring manager as well, which is probably

28:13

the most important thing that I do is

28:15

hire people. And how about

28:18

the reps that either can't take

28:20

coaching or argue when

28:22

they get coaching? Yeah, I'm

28:26

at the point now and I we've

28:28

built a really good organization here in the

28:30

east, northeast and we don't have a lot

28:32

of turnover and we have a pretty good

28:34

rhythm with our people now. So they realize

28:37

again, what I said earlier, like, we're not

28:39

questioning how hard you're working. We're not criticizing you.

28:41

We're trying to point out things that we've observed

28:44

that we think can make you better. You

28:47

know, so while there may be some pushback, you know,

28:49

I kind of diffuse the situation. I'm a pretty calm

28:51

guy. I was like, yes, and you don't get the

28:53

sense of attacking you. I'm trying to

28:56

help you. I think once you say that

28:58

to somebody, the next thing is the

29:00

whole dynamic of the conversation. Very rarely

29:02

do I have somebody that stays heated

29:05

during the conversation. Once I take that,

29:07

you know, once I take the

29:09

stress and anxiety out of the conversation. And

29:13

how did you develop that style? Because that is

29:15

a talent. Yeah, I think I learned the hard

29:17

way because then, you know, I would watch and

29:19

then I would raise my level, they'd raise their

29:21

level, I'd go higher. And it was just nothing.

29:25

Right. And the next time we interacted, it

29:27

was uncomfortable. And there was just an NFI

29:29

to ride in the field with them. It was always

29:32

hanging over us. And no, that

29:34

doesn't mean to say that I'm not, you know, I

29:36

still won't push someone and challenge them and call them

29:38

out if I think they're not being candid, or they're

29:40

not doing as much as they can. But it's

29:42

just the way I do it has changed. And

29:45

how can you tell when the rep is ready

29:47

to become a leader? I

29:51

have an individual right now who's in a position where

29:53

I think they're ready to take that next step. And

29:56

you know, and I just had a conversation

29:58

with my boss about that. some of the

30:00

things we need to do. And I think, again, it comes

30:02

down to, you know, self,

30:04

you know, educate themselves, right? I think there's some

30:06

great books out there. Servant Leader,

30:09

you know, Leaders Eat Last. Those

30:11

are must-reads for a leader. No, that's, you know,

30:13

it's self not gonna do it. But, you know,

30:16

I think getting him on calls, you know, shadowing

30:18

other leaders, setting him to the field and kind

30:20

of a management role to

30:22

kind of observe behaviors and make

30:24

observations. Not necessarily in his area,

30:28

because that could be a little, could be some friction.

30:30

But I send him to another market. I have new

30:32

hires, I'll bring the new hires in. And

30:35

I just wanna see how they respond while also continuing

30:38

to grow their market and be successful is

30:40

what they do. Because sometimes when people make

30:42

the decision that they wanna move into a

30:44

leadership role, they stop doing the

30:46

other stuff that made them successful. So

30:49

I just make sure I try to strike that balance.

30:52

And I'm a big believer in promoting from within.

30:55

Like anytime I can do that, I wanna do it. How

30:58

about if they have the wrong motive

31:00

or the wrong intent? Maybe they're turning

31:02

30 and it's time to be a

31:05

leader. No, absolutely.

31:08

I've seen that with my own eyes. And I, the guy

31:10

who's my manager now, he's one

31:12

of my most successful managers, but he

31:14

wanted to do it probably about a year and a

31:17

half before he was ready. And it caused,

31:19

you know, there was some definite friction between him

31:21

and I, but now he looks back and says

31:23

the best thing that happened to him because he

31:25

believes he would have failed because he

31:27

wasn't ready. Because at the

31:29

end of the day, right, the sales rep says, listen, I've

31:31

won some of, you know, our circle of excellence, you know,

31:33

X amount of years in a row, I'm always a goal.

31:36

I can be a leader. There's a

31:38

little bit more to it than that. You

31:41

know, so I think it's just kind of pointing out to

31:43

the areas that they can continue to grow, things they can

31:45

do within the organization to kind of

31:47

showcase their abilities, improve their skills.

31:50

And once they do that and they understand

31:52

that and then something clicks, then

31:54

you got them. So they're like, all right, I see it now. And

31:58

as a leader, what do you think? Your biggest mistake

32:01

was? I

32:07

think when I started as a leader, I had

32:09

success as a rep. Success

32:11

as a manager, in some

32:14

capacity. But then I think I made it too much about

32:16

myself. I wanted the

32:18

success. I wanted the personal accolades. I

32:20

wanted to walk across the stage and be

32:22

recognized as the best. And

32:25

it was transparent. I

32:27

think I probably used, when I was talking to you, I probably used

32:30

words like I, I, I. I'm like, what

32:32

am I doing? Right,

32:34

exactly. I want to

32:36

win the circle of excellence. I want to do this.

32:38

And I was like, wait a

32:40

second. This is wrong. I'm not a sole

32:42

contributor anymore. And I

32:45

think, for me, that was a

32:47

major crystallizing

32:49

moment for me, because everything

32:51

changes after that. When you realize it

32:53

isn't about you, it's

32:55

about the people you're trying to work with and work

32:57

for. And I think that's the key

32:59

word I work for. And

33:02

once that shift happens, everyone sees it.

33:05

That's not authentic, right? I've seen some leaders

33:07

will do it for six months or a

33:09

year. And then when nobody's looking, they'll go

33:11

back to what they did before. But

33:14

my thing is, once you've done it and people

33:16

believe in it and they buy into it, it

33:19

changes the whole dynamic

33:21

of your team. Cool.

33:24

Hey, Rick, we really appreciate your time today. Where can people go

33:26

to connect and follow you? Well, I'm

33:28

on LinkedIn. Rick Sully. You can check me

33:30

out there. And I also have the Sully

33:32

Says podcast. They can check that out.

33:34

I'm not going to compete with you. Why

33:36

not? It's just another resource

33:38

for people to learn, Brian. So I really enjoyed

33:40

talking to you. I love your stuff. And

33:43

I hope we can try to get in someday. I

33:49

like that story a lot. And it reminds me

33:51

of one of the first jobs

33:53

I had in sales. And I lucked out having

33:56

a manager and a couple

33:58

of managers and mentors. that

34:01

were very talented and

34:03

we were selling very high-end

34:05

enterprise software and

34:08

hardware at that time. And

34:10

what we always did was we always had

34:12

a preparation meeting before the

34:14

sales call. Afterwards we had

34:17

this post-mortem and

34:19

through that I learned so much

34:22

because at the time I was

34:24

this naive pre-sales engineer hoping

34:26

to get into sales. I saw the money

34:29

they were making the lifestyles

34:31

they had and

34:33

I got into really

34:35

positive systems,

34:38

ways of thinking, questioning,

34:41

debating, discussing. It

34:43

was never about activity. It

34:46

was about quality and

34:48

from that I learned

34:50

so much about how companies

34:52

buy, how to lead a sales

34:55

process instead of reacting

34:57

to it. And

35:00

if I didn't have that early

35:04

setup, my

35:06

career could have gone a very different direction

35:09

because the job I got after that was

35:11

much more like what I see today. Counting

35:14

activities, it was

35:16

smaller deals, they

35:19

weren't transactional but they weren't the

35:21

big dollar amount. And

35:24

if I had that job first I

35:26

would have had terrible habits. And

35:29

then I got into another startup where

35:31

it was kind of a mix of

35:34

them and it was

35:36

a great match for me because

35:38

I knew that deep understanding

35:41

of how to get the technical

35:44

wind and how

35:46

to get the economic wind and I

35:48

crushed it. It

35:50

wasn't about personality and charm,

35:53

although that helps quite a bit

35:56

if I had it back then. that

36:00

the person you see today isn't

36:02

the person who was back then.

36:04

I was just a nervous Nellie,

36:07

very shy

36:10

and nervous about talking

36:13

to executives yet insanely

36:15

motivated. And

36:17

when you're motivated enough you tend

36:20

to learn and that's

36:22

kind of what I'm coming to the

36:24

conclusion of is people learn as

36:26

fast as they want to. Not as

36:29

fast as they can. We can

36:32

learn insanely fast if we

36:34

want to. The problem is

36:36

in sales we

36:38

get addicted, addicted

36:42

to our ego, rationalizing

36:44

why we're okay. Because

36:47

feeling that pain is

36:51

painful and we avoid it. Our

36:54

brain is a pain avoidance

36:56

machine. We don't recognize

36:58

it until

37:01

someone points it out to us. Like

37:04

I put together a you know

37:06

a to-do list pretty much every day, every week.

37:09

And at the end I often

37:13

notice the stuff that didn't get done was

37:15

the stuff that I didn't want to do.

37:19

My mind is constantly avoiding

37:21

it. I always seem

37:23

to find some way of distracting myself.

37:27

Why do we procrastinate? It's

37:29

pleasurable. Why

37:31

do we not do the things we know

37:33

we should do? Because it's

37:35

painful. Sales,

37:38

it's getting used to those

37:41

little pains. Breaking them down

37:43

so they're not as painful.

37:46

Coming up with smarter easier ways

37:48

of doing it. Connecting it up

37:51

with things that are more pleasurable.

37:54

It's kind of a game that we have

37:56

to play with ourselves to get us to

37:59

do the things that are

38:02

less desirable. But

38:04

if we don't do it, you

38:06

know what happens. So

38:08

in sales, it's really about getting

38:10

yourself ready to learn, want

38:13

to learn. Put your ego

38:15

aside. Separate

38:17

the performance from the

38:19

performer. The

38:21

performer is still good as

38:23

long as we want to

38:26

learn. Take feedback. Understand it's

38:28

not about us

38:30

as a person. It's about us

38:33

as a salesperson. How

38:36

well did we do it? And

38:40

if you focus on the quality, the

38:43

quantity doesn't seem to matter as much

38:46

because you're closing more deals. Our

38:49

brain will naturally gravitate

38:52

towards where the revenue is

38:55

unless we value the

38:57

busyness above the

39:00

revenue. This is

39:02

why managers love busyness. It

39:05

has the same basic

39:08

signal as revenue except

39:11

for there's no money in it. That's

39:13

the only piece that's missing. Unfortunately,

39:15

that's a big piece. So

39:18

what do we do? We have to

39:20

have that judgment. And

39:24

I never met a manager yet that didn't

39:26

want me to work harder. They all want you

39:28

to work hard. You know why?

39:30

Because nobody cares how hard someone else

39:32

works. Oh, you want to work

39:35

the weekend? 24 hours, good, go

39:37

for it. Yet

39:40

we're the person that has that

39:42

biological machine that needs to rest,

39:44

that needs to focus on the

39:46

things that get us the reward.

39:49

And the reward in sales is

39:51

revenue, which turns into commission. Busyness,

39:58

I'm not sure what it does. You

40:01

get some reps, you might learn a

40:03

little, but you might learn some

40:05

wrong things too. It's

40:08

all about what you close.

40:12

Learning how to focus on the

40:14

things in the right order. That

40:16

judgment part of selling is

40:18

so critical. And this is what I

40:20

teach in both courses. And

40:24

if you're interested, if you

40:26

want to get more conversation started, wouldn't

40:29

you like to learn how? And

40:32

it's very interesting working with people and

40:34

the resistance I get, because

40:36

it doesn't have the same

40:39

busyness feeling that you have with the

40:41

50 calls and 100 emails and

40:44

all that rejection, but

40:47

it works. People

40:49

fight it because it's counterintuitive.

40:53

But all of sales

40:55

is counterintuitive. It's

40:57

not about us. It's about them. It's

41:00

about listening, not talking. It's

41:03

about leading, not pushing. These

41:07

tenets of great

41:09

salesmanship are no longer

41:12

taught today. Why? Because

41:14

everybody thinks it's a numbers game.

41:18

And if it was a numbers game, go buy

41:20

a lottery ticket. It's

41:23

about a focus

41:26

game, focusing on who is

41:28

most likely to care,

41:31

most likely to build interest with

41:33

us, most likely to engage with

41:35

us, most likely to buy. And

41:39

people view sales as, oh,

41:42

it's a two-day course. Go

41:44

out there. Go nuts. It

41:46

is a two-day course if you're just hitting buttons.

41:49

And if that's working, you wouldn't be here. It's

41:55

a skill game. It's a focus

41:57

game. And those are the people.

42:00

that are successful. Has one person

42:02

on the show talked

42:05

about busyness? Everyone

42:07

works hard, but how

42:09

do they work hard? That's the

42:12

question. And you should be asking

42:14

yourself, and I ask myself all

42:16

the time. Because believe me, you know,

42:18

at the end of the week I grade

42:20

myself on the week and

42:23

I notice I spent way too much time

42:25

on these things that are

42:27

distractions. There's payoff for

42:30

it. It's not like just scrolling. It

42:34

gives me some results, but

42:36

is it the high leverage results? Sometimes,

42:40

sometimes not. And

42:42

then I have to break that habit and

42:45

create another one. We're

42:47

all like this. We got to admit it

42:49

to ourselves. Put the ego aside and say,

42:51

what do I really want? Do I want

42:53

to be right? Or do

42:55

I want to be rich? I'm

42:59

not doing this just

43:01

for giggles. I'm doing

43:03

this to be successful. Because

43:06

that's why we're in sales. Go

43:09

to b2brevenue.com. Invest

43:11

one year in your life and

43:15

watch what can happen. When I

43:17

see people who've been doing this multiple

43:19

decades increase their revenue,

43:22

their income by 30%, by investing in themselves,

43:28

taking their game apart, analyzing it,

43:30

putting it back together, understanding

43:35

the traps that they were falling into, that

43:38

their instincts were

43:40

their enemy in sales. Then

43:45

that's rewarding. Or you see somebody

43:47

just their first year in sales

43:50

that's really motivated, that

43:52

doesn't want to just be busy all day,

43:55

having the success that they thought they

43:57

could have in sales. getting

44:00

a nice $20,000 commission check. That's

44:07

rewarding. Check out the

44:09

courses and ask yourself, do

44:12

you really wanna do this or do you just

44:15

wanna be busy? We'll see you next time.