0:08

Hello and welcome back to the Canadian Money Roadmap

0:11

podcast . I'm your host

0:13

, evan Neufeld . On

0:17

today's episode , I'm going back to

0:19

a segment that I used to do a whole

0:21

lot last year . This is the Reddit roundup

0:24

, where I went on to Reddit and I found some of the most

0:26

popular posts from

0:28

the personal finance subreddit

0:31

and I'm going to look at a few

0:33

of the answers or the ways that I would think about

0:35

giving an answer to these people asking questions

0:38

. Today's topics include what

0:41

should you use for return assumptions in your

0:43

long-term financial projections ? Becoming

0:46

a TFSA multi-millionaire and

0:49

I just hit $100,000

0:51

, what now ? This will

0:53

be a good one . Lots of things to go through

0:55

here , so I hope you enjoy this episode of the Reddit

0:57

Roundup for April

1:00

. All

1:05

right , let's get into post number one

1:07

. This post says I've seen

1:10

most financial institutions saying

1:12

that you should expect a conservative 3%

1:14

to 4% growth on retirement

1:16

funds . I've also heard of 6%

1:19

to 7% on other subreddits

1:21

and my portfolio , not managed

1:23

by me that's the original

1:25

poster saying this , not Evan Neufeld here . The

1:28

portfolio is currently blowing both

1:30

of these numbers out of the water . So

1:32

the question is when running the retirement

1:35

calculators , what rate should I

1:37

be putting in ? Okay , well , the million dollar

1:39

question there is what retirement calculators and

1:41

what other variables are you dealing with in addition

1:43

to simply rate of return ? But going

1:47

through this one , the main idea

1:49

here is , if you're looking towards

1:51

the future , you've got to start using some

1:53

assumptions . You'd hope that these

1:56

assumptions are rooted in something that's reasonable

1:58

and rational , and so , to this poster's credit

2:00

, they are trying to do the smart thing by trying

2:02

to create a bit of a plan for themselves using

2:05

return estimates that make

2:08

sense . So , for me as a financial

2:10

planner , we are encouraged

2:12

to use the assumptions provided by FP

2:14

Canada , or Financial Planning Canada

2:17

, and every year they put out a

2:19

new set of guidelines that we can use

2:21

. They don't deviate a whole lot from

2:23

one year to the next , which is a good thing

2:25

. They shouldn't be jumping around too much

2:27

, but they are guidelines

2:30

using a variety of publicly

2:32

available sources , and so it's not a

2:34

single person or just some opinions

2:36

or anything like that . They rely

2:38

on a lot of actuarial reports from the Quebec

2:40

pension plan and the Canada pension plan as

2:43

well . So using

2:45

their guidelines is a good place to start

2:47

. It's something that us , as financial planners

2:49

, do as well . They give a little

2:51

bit of leeway , depending on circumstance

2:54

, and there's some caveats that we could maybe get

2:56

into there . But largely speaking

2:58

, the guidelines here are

3:00

intended to be used and I'm quoting

3:02

here as a guide , and they are appropriate

3:04

for making realistic long-term ie

3:07

10 plus years financial

3:09

projections . Predicting the direction

3:12

the economy will take and how financial markets

3:14

will evolve is a difficult exercise requiring

3:16

the integration of a large number of variables and highly

3:18

sophisticated valuation models

3:21

, of course . So all that to say , you need to

3:23

have some basis for what you're using for

3:25

a guideline , and FP Canada seems

3:27

like a reasonable starting point

3:29

that you could use . So just looking

3:31

at equities so this is just stocks

3:34

they have guidelines

3:36

provided for Canadian equities , foreign

3:38

developed market equities and emerging

3:40

market equities . These all have

3:42

different expected rates of return . They

3:45

also come with different expectations on volatility

3:47

as well , which are not included as part

3:50

of the guidelines here . But

3:52

just pure and simple , here's

3:54

what you can do and you can add

3:56

different weights depending on what your portfolio

3:59

looks like yourself . So

4:01

, for Canadian equities , the assumptions

4:03

for this goes back to 2023 . They haven't

4:05

updated them for 2024 yet . But 6.2%

4:09

for foreign developed market equities

4:11

. Think US markets or the UK

4:13

or Japan , things like that . I know they're

4:15

all different , but largely speaking as

4:17

a group , 6.5%

4:19

and emerging market equities , 7.4%

4:23

. So if you have a reasonably

4:26

typical portfolio that

4:28

includes about a quarter in Canadian equities

4:31

, about 50% in the

4:33

US , about 15% in

4:35

foreign developed markets outside of the US and

4:37

about 10% in emerging markets

4:40

Again , that is not for everybody

4:42

but that's a relatively common

4:44

generalization for an all equity portfolio

4:47

that leads to a weighted average

4:49

of pretty well , bang on six and a half percent . So

4:51

if you are a DIY investor

4:54

and you're building your portfolio using ETFs

4:56

and things like that , you will need to subtract

4:58

the management fees from that

5:00

Same thing with using an advisor or any

5:03

other fees that might come along with getting access

5:05

to those investment products . So if you are

5:07

in the ballpark of that 6% to 7% that

5:09

this person mentions , they've seen that

5:12

is grounded in a reasonable

5:14

estimate of forward-looking returns for

5:17

a globally diversified equity portfolio

5:19

. There's a lot of jargon there , but hopefully

5:22

that makes a lot of sense . So now maybe to address some

5:24

of the other things there . The poster mentions that

5:26

his portfolio is currently blowing both of these

5:28

numbers out of the water . So keep in mind that 6%

5:30

to 7% does not mean that

5:33

every single year you are going to get 6% to 7%

5:35

. This is how averages work . You're

5:38

going to get some years that are great , some years that are terrible

5:40

, and then , on average , you're going to get six to

5:42

7% . The devil's in the details

5:44

on these projections because , as FP

5:46

Canada suggests as well , that

5:49

I'm quoting financial planners should

5:51

also develop sensitivity analysis to

5:53

illustrate and assess the impact of

5:55

changes in assumptions on clients' financial

5:58

position . So part of doing

6:00

that is something called a stress test , and that's

6:02

something that I include with my clients and their financial

6:04

plans . Stress test takes a look in to

6:07

see what would happen if the

6:09

order or the sequence of

6:11

returns is not favorable for

6:13

that person as part of their retirement plan . Using

6:16

something called Monte Carlo analysis can be a great way

6:18

to do that , and it's a pretty interesting tool to take

6:20

a look at your odds of success

6:22

, looking beyond just an average

6:24

rate of return plugged into a calculator

6:26

, because if you're using a retirement calculator

6:29

and using even reasonable

6:31

guidelines , what you're doing

6:33

is actually projecting straight line

6:35

returns , not anything that actually

6:37

includes any volatility or

6:39

variance , and we all know anybody

6:41

that's been investing more than a day or

6:43

two knows that investments don't

6:45

always go straight up . So , yes

6:48

, averages are fine . Using reasonable

6:50

, forward-looking projections is fine . Stress

6:53

testing is better . Being

6:55

conservative is also better , because

6:57

if you're more conservative in your return

6:59

assessment , then you'll

7:02

likely develop a plan where

7:04

you'll be saving more of your money to increase

7:06

a little bit of wiggle room there . So

7:09

when the poster says that you should

7:11

expect a conservative 3% to 4%

7:13

, based on what they've seen from financial institutions

7:15

, this could be a couple of different things . They

7:17

might be taking a look at a situation

7:20

where that might be the expected return for , say

7:22

, a balanced portfolio . It's probably a

7:24

little bit low , even for a balanced portfolio . But

7:26

back to FB Canada's guidelines here the

7:29

return assumptions for fixed

7:31

income . So fixed income would be bonds and

7:33

that's typically the other half of a

7:35

balanced portfolio . The return assumptions for fixed

7:38

income in 2023 was 3.2%

7:40

on a go-forward basis . So when

7:43

you start including some of these assets

7:45

that have lower expected returns , your

7:47

return assumptions , depending

7:50

on how you're invested , should also decrease

7:52

. So if you are someone that is a balanced investor

7:55

meaning , say , 40 to 60%

7:57

of your portfolio is in bonds you

7:59

should not be using a 6 to 7% rate

8:01

of return on any assumptions that you make in your

8:04

financial planning . That just doesn't make sense , because

8:06

if half of your portfolio

8:08

is in fixed income , that has a 3.2%

8:10

expected rate of return , that

8:13

meaningfully changes how

8:15

you should be planning and saving your

8:18

own cashflow . So another

8:20

thing that you could be seeing

8:22

if someone says expecting three

8:24

to 4% growth on

8:26

retirement funds , that could also

8:29

be something called a real return

8:31

. Real returns should

8:33

probably be more accurately just called

8:35

inflation adjusted returns . Because

8:38

inflation adjustments ? I

8:40

kind of go back and forth on this because in some ways it

8:42

doesn't matter at all , in other ways it's

8:44

the only thing that matters . It's the only

8:47

thing that matters because you can't spend

8:49

rates of return . You have to spend

8:51

absolute dollars , and so if

8:53

your dollars in your bank account get

8:55

eroded away via inflation

8:58

meaning you you can just

9:00

buy less over time Well

9:02

then your rate of return doesn't really matter

9:05

. But at the same time you can't control inflation

9:07

and you can't really control your rate of return either

9:09

, and so they kind of are just is

9:11

what it is factors in

9:14

the grand scheme of things . So when you're doing a proper

9:16

financial plan , yes , you should be using inflation

9:19

adjustments , but those should come throughout

9:21

your financial plan as well , not

9:23

just necessarily on your

9:26

investment rate of return . So anyways

9:28

, without rambling too much more on that

9:30

, the 6% to 7% that this person mentions

9:32

on their post is probably

9:34

a decent place to go if they are

9:36

someone who is invested

9:38

in a globally diversified portfolio

9:40

of stocks . Only Might

9:43

be a little bit high if you're a balanced investor or

9:45

you include some bonds in your portfolio , but

9:47

somewhere in that ballpark seems completely

9:49

reasonable . The next post here says this

9:52

is the headline or the title here

9:54

simply maxing out TFSA every

9:56

year will make you a multimillionaire before

9:58

retirement . And this person says , just

10:00

playing around with some numbers on an investment calculator

10:02

and plugged in these parameters on a hypothetical

10:04

TFSA account , if one starts contributing

10:06

to a TFSA when they turn 18 and put

10:08

it into an S&P 500 index

10:11

fund , they reinvest all dividends and never

10:13

withdraw any money from the account . They assume

10:15

an annual contribution of $6,000

10:17

, fluctuates between $5,500

10:20

and $7,000 . I'll come back to

10:22

that and assume a rate of return of 10%

10:24

. Uh-oh , might

10:27

be a little juicy . So anyways , this person

10:29

says after 42 years , at 60 years old , the investment

10:31

will grow to $3.9 million . Even

10:34

with a 4% withdrawal rate per year . That's over

10:36

$150,000 in passive , tax-free income

10:38

. Sure , okay , I'll stop

10:41

there . I love the TFSA . I

10:43

think it is a very underused tool . I think

10:45

it is going to become more and more valuable

10:47

as time goes on . I think it's a great

10:49

retirement tool . However , there's a few things

10:51

that I'm going to suggest

10:54

here as it relates to this person's

10:56

post . First one should

10:58

you put everything into an S&P 500 index

11:01

fund ? Me personally , no . Index investing

11:03

is totally fine . I think the S&P 500

11:05

has been a perfectly fine

11:07

place to invest , of course , because over

11:09

the last 10 years it's been the best place to invest . So

11:12

should you , as

11:14

an investor , assume that

11:16

the best performing index

11:19

over its best performing

11:21

period of time will continue to be

11:23

the best performing thing on a go forward

11:25

basis ? No , that would probably not

11:27

be rooted in any sort of evidence , and

11:30

so diversifying outside of

11:32

only large cap equities

11:34

in only one country probably

11:36

makes sense . Are you going to blow yourself

11:39

up by investing in only the S&P

11:41

500 index fund ? No , is it

11:43

optimal ? No , probably not

11:45

either . So , anyways , we might be splitting

11:47

hairs there a little bit , but for

11:49

index investors , including some other parts

11:51

of the world in your index portfolio

11:54

would probably be prudent . The next part

11:57

mentions reinvesting all dividends . So here's part

11:59

of the reason why there's a little

12:01

minor optimization thing when it comes to

12:03

receiving dividends

12:05

or foreign dividends in a tax-free

12:08

savings account . So Canada and the US do not have

12:10

a tax treaty with each other as it relates

12:12

to the tax-free savings account . So

12:14

any dividends that you receive , even

12:16

from an S&P 500 index fund even

12:19

though it's not a dividend-specific fund there are still plenty

12:22

of companies in there that do pay dividends 15%

12:24

of the dividends received will be withheld at

12:27

source and you will not receive

12:29

them . This is not true in an RRSP

12:31

, however . So investing

12:33

in US equities , there might be better homes

12:35

for it in terms of account types and things

12:37

like that , and so there are some minor

12:39

inefficiencies for us as being Canadian

12:41

investors , and smarter people than me

12:44

have done a lot of work on actually

12:46

running the numbers on home bias

12:48

, meaning that's investing in your home country

12:51

, and the optimal amount for

12:53

most countries is in that

12:55

ballpark of 20 to 30%

12:58

, which is what I suggested in that

13:00

previous post . So most of the

13:02

asset allocation ETFs and mutual

13:04

funds that you might be familiar with that is

13:07

a typical allocation to Canadian

13:09

stocks in those portfolios

13:11

, and they do that for a reason . So

13:13

S&P 500 index fund might

13:16

not be a great assumption

13:18

on a go forward basis from a diversification

13:21

and opportunity standpoint . The next

13:23

one person says the annual

13:25

contribution of $6,000 fluctuates

13:27

between 5,500 and 7,000

13:29

. No , it does not . Actually

13:32

, what the contribution room for the

13:34

TFSA does is it increases with inflation

13:36

rounded to the nearest $500

13:39

. So some years it

13:41

will go up and other years it will not , but

13:43

it will not fluctuate between 5,500

13:45

and 7,000 currently

13:47

this year . So if you're investing

13:49

in your TFSA for this year , the

13:51

room for 2024 is $7,000

13:54

and it has been 5,500 in the past

13:56

. It has also been 5,000 in the past . It's

13:58

also been 10,000 in the past . So calculating

14:01

the appropriate amount of TFSA

14:03

room that you have will be

14:05

critical for maximizing the TFSA over

14:08

the course of your life and also prevents

14:10

you from over-contributing , which

14:12

is a bit of a nightmare . So the last

14:14

thing here , of course , is that assumed rate of return

14:17

of 10% . I think this

14:19

is problematic for a few reasons

14:21

, but I think that might be a little

14:23

bit overly optimistic . If

14:25

you would like a deeper dive

14:28

on some of the theory and

14:30

the empirical evidence around rates

14:32

of return and projected

14:35

rates of return , the good people over

14:37

at the Rational Reminder Podcast , ben

14:39

Felix , cameron Passmore and previous

14:41

Canadian Money Roadmap guest , mark McGrath . They

14:44

go into a lot of great detail on a

14:46

recent episode about this . I can link to

14:48

that in the show notes here as well . It's

14:50

really interesting , but I'll spare you the

14:52

long listen . And 10% is

14:54

a little bit ambitious for

14:57

a go-forward rate of return , even for

14:59

US equities . It's possible . It's

15:01

possible and I'm okay with being wrong because I

15:03

got a lot of money invested in US equities too . But

15:06

just to assume it on a go-for-it basis is

15:08

probably a bit much . So anyways

15:10

, use a TFSA . It's a great long-term

15:13

tool for building retirement assets

15:15

, tax-free income , all that sort

15:17

of thing . It's great . It is totally

15:19

possible to have a million bucks

15:21

in a TFSA . For those of you that are in the millennial

15:23

demographic , like myself , that's completely

15:26

reasonable for someone that has the capacity

15:28

to invest in the ballpark of

15:30

the contribution room every year . But

15:33

that takes a lot of money as

15:35

well . So it's not going to be for everybody and it's not a no

15:37

brainer and you have to stay invested to actually

15:39

realize those assumed rate

15:41

of returns as well . So if you're jumping in and out of the

15:43

market , that's just going to be another anchor

15:46

on your overall returns , but

15:48

that's another topic for another day . Last

15:51

topic here the title is 100K

15:53

, what now Sounds

15:56

like a good problem . So this person is soon

15:58

to be 27 , hit 100K this week $15,000

16:01

in a cash account , 50,000 in TFSA

16:04

. 20,000 RSP 18,000

16:06

first home savings account . They

16:09

make about eight grand a month after taxes

16:11

. No debt . I helped pay my parents mortgage

16:13

and recently moved back in with them . No plans to move out

16:15

until I'm 30 , unless life throws

16:18

an unexpected , probably

16:20

curve ball . Here . I'm editorializing

16:22

the missing words , so I'm

16:24

going to read the next part verbatim here because

16:27

I think it is kind of interesting , and so

16:30

we'll get into a bit of a conversation on this Now

16:32

. Not that I expected the $100,000

16:34

benchmark to be a grandiose finish

16:36

line that once I hit I could ride off

16:38

into the sunset forever , of course , but

16:41

I did think that I would feel

16:43

more accomplished and slightly fulfilled After

16:46

getting there . I'm more so lost

16:48

in my direction of what's next ? 500k

16:51

, a million , yeah , sure , but then what

16:53

? Maybe coming to a slow realization

16:55

that money isn't everything . The more

16:57

you have , the more you'll want . I can see how

16:59

this vicious cycle can consume people's lives

17:02

and sooner or later then realize they're

17:04

60 and haven't experienced life itself . Anyways

17:06

, this isn't a find a meaning to life

17:09

page . So , beyond that , hoping to get

17:11

some input from people older and wiser than I am on

17:13

what the best ways to continue to grow

17:15

my net worth in the coming years , as mentioned

17:17

, whatever , it doesn't matter . So I would

17:20

say this person's in a really good position

17:22

and they're asking some good questions here

17:24

. Are they kind of coming to the

17:26

reality of what they should

17:28

be considering ? So no , the

17:30

post that they're on isn't a finding meaning

17:32

to life page , but that is

17:34

a part of the investment process

17:36

journey , right ? So making

17:39

the pile bigger isn't really

17:41

a goal or it's a problematic

17:43

goal . From my experience with people , the

17:46

cool part about my job is that I get to walk alongside

17:48

many , many , many other people in

17:51

different stages of life , in different stages of wealth

17:53

, helping them make better decisions with their money

17:55

and the people that I've seen that have a goal

17:57

of making the pile bigger . It

17:59

just becomes very , very

18:02

difficult because there's never

18:04

enough and it's never fast

18:06

enough , right ? If you don't have a

18:08

goal other than making more money or making

18:10

the pile bigger , or , in

18:13

that case , even if you don't think that way sometimes

18:15

it's like well , when I have 2 million bucks , I'm

18:17

going to feel good . When I have 3 million bucks

18:20

, I'm going to feel good . When I have 4 million bucks , I'm going to feel good . When I

18:22

have three million bucks , I'm going to feel good . When I have four million bucks , I'm going to feel

18:24

good . They don't feel good . It's never happened . I've never seen that once

18:26

. When people do not have guiding

18:28

principles or goals for their money beyond

18:30

just numbers , there's never enough

18:33

and it's never fast enough . So

18:35

this can obviously lead to bad behaviors

18:37

that try to accelerate years of good behaviors

18:39

. Trading

18:41

too much , getting into more and more speculative assets , selling

18:43

when the market goes down , buying after it's

18:45

gone up All these things actually

18:48

don't make the pile bigger . They make the pile smaller

18:50

. So all the good things that you did

18:52

become less and less relevant in your mind

18:54

if you do not have any proper goals

18:57

. So I always tell people okay , so

18:59

what does your plan actually require ? So

19:01

what is next for this person ? Do

19:04

they even need to be saving any more ? I don't know

19:06

. I don't know them beyond this Reddit post

19:08

here . But part of making money is

19:10

spending money . I believe it's about

19:12

being generous with your money If you have the capacity

19:14

to do so . I think everybody has the capacity

19:16

to do so in one way or another . You don't have to be

19:18

putting your name on a hospital to be generous with somebody

19:21

, but there's so much more to having

19:23

a job , to earn an income , to just

19:25

save and invest more . It's fun

19:27

investing . I like it . Following the markets

19:29

is fun and interesting whatever , but there's

19:32

got to be a purpose . There's got to be a reason

19:34

why everything is happening . So

19:36

if you have a financial plan that

19:38

says I want to do this with my money on this

19:40

timeline , you have a financial

19:42

plan that says I want to do this with my money on this timeline

19:45

, whatever , okay

19:47

, now you can consult your plan and say you tell me what's next . Should you

19:49

prioritize your RSP ? Should you invest in a non-registered account ? Do you need some

19:51

insurance ? All sorts of things that

19:54

will guide the actual nuts and bolts of what do you do

19:56

with the money next , from a practical standpoint

19:58

, and if you don't get a good answer , the

20:01

better answer is probably enjoy

20:03

your life a little bit . You know like if

20:05

you have so much money on hand and

20:08

all of your savings goals are achieved and

20:10

you don't have any debt , go spend it . Go

20:12

give it away . Make a difference for somebody . It's

20:14

lots of cool things that you can do , but anyways

20:17

, to help form some of those things

20:19

, using the framework of SMART

20:21

goals might be a good place to start . So

20:24

SMART is an acronym that

20:26

says that your goals should be

20:28

specific , measurable

20:30

, achievable , relevant

20:33

and time-based . This is a perfect

20:35

framework for financial goal

20:37

setting , and so when we work with clients

20:39

on their financial plans , these are

20:41

the things that we try to pry out over time

20:43

. The big one for most people is retirement

20:45

. So when do you want to be done working ? How

20:48

much money do you need to have of your own

20:50

at that point ? Is that reasonable

20:52

to do ? Is this actually what you want

20:54

? Is that a timeframe that makes

20:56

sense ? You know , sometimes those

20:59

retirement goals can be a little bit too far in

21:01

the future , but if it's like I

21:03

need a car in the next three years , okay

21:05

, that's pretty specific . How much

21:07

do you need ? You'll probably need like 40

21:10

grand . Cars are so expensive

21:13

. Even relatively

21:15

cheap vehicles are really expensive

21:17

. So that's specific . It's measurable

21:19

, meaning you actually know how much it's

21:22

going to cost . Is it achievable ? I don't know

21:24

. Depends on your income and how much you can actually save

21:26

out of your cashflow . But in theory , yes , that's

21:28

probably achievable . Is it relevant ? Yeah

21:31

, that's something that you need to get around

21:33

, so that's a very relevant thing to you and

21:35

time-based . In three years , awesome . Now you

21:37

actually have a framework to figure out what to do with your

21:39

money . Awesome , and you can do this

21:42

with every part of your financial life

21:44

if you want . But again , just making

21:46

the pile bigger and investing

21:49

for the sake of investing leads to bad

21:51

behaviors , it leads to confusion , it

21:53

leads to questions , it leads to uncertainty

21:55

, and that's the last thing that anybody benefits

21:57

from when it comes to their money . Here's the

21:59

plug . If you do not have a financial

22:01

plan , check out my website evanneufeldcom

22:04

. There's a section for financial planning . I've

22:06

got very clear pricing available

22:08

on there for individuals or families and

22:11

reach out and my colleague Jordan would be

22:13

your next point of contact to

22:15

get started with a financial plan . Here at

22:17

the Canadian Money Roadmap , I am all about giving

22:19

you the tools to better understand your money

22:22

so that you know where you're going , and

22:24

this post is exactly about that . You got

22:26

to know where you're going in the first place , so

22:29

having a financial plan can really

22:31

make you determine what is a good strategy

22:33

for you on a go forward basis

22:44

to help you achieve the things that you want to achieve

22:46

with your money . Anyways

22:49

, I hope this was an interesting episode

22:51

for you . I kind of like doing this from time to time because

22:53

if it's popular on Reddit , that means it's probably popular

22:55

with people who are also listening to

22:57

this podcast . I appreciate all the questions

23:00

that I've got . Recently I got an email about something

23:02

very similar to the last post

23:04

here about what to do next , and so

23:06

I'm hopefully going to do a podcast episode

23:08

about that in the future and get into a little bit

23:10

more specifics about Canadian financial

23:12

planning and the options available once

23:15

you've maximized your registered

23:17

plans . So anyways , like

23:20

I mentioned before , if you are looking for a financial

23:22

plan for yourself , you can check out my website

23:24

at evanneufeldcom

23:26

the link is below in the show

23:28

notes and we'd love to connect with you

23:31

and hopefully help you get some clarity on

23:33

where you're going and how fast you can get there

23:35

on your financial journey . Thanks for listening

23:37

. We'll see you in another episode . Thanks

23:54

for listening to this episode . See you in another

23:56

episode making changes to your financial plan . Evan

24:00

Neufeld is a certified financial planner and

24:02

registered investment fund advisor . Mutual

24:04

funds and ETFs are provided by Sterling

24:07

Mutuals Inc .