0:03

Bob the Drag Queen grew up in Georgia and made

0:05

the move to New York to pursue a career in acting

0:08

in comedy. After working numerous

0:10

odd jobs, Bob began to hit the drag queen

0:12

scene in New York. Bob later joined the

0:14

Castle RuPaul's Drag Race and was crowned

0:16

the winner of season eight. On this episode

0:19

of The Carlos Watson Show podcast, Bob

0:21

the Drag Queen reflects on Bob's coming out experience

0:24

and a conversation surrounding gender, sexuality

0:26

and polyamory.

0:31

Hey Bob, Hi, how

0:34

are you? I'm great? How are you good?

0:37

Good? Are you in New York? Where are you? I

0:39

am in Los Angeles. I'm in Hollywood

0:41

right now. Now did you move? Why

0:43

do I have you in New York? In my mind? I

0:46

know because I listen. I am in New

0:48

York. I'm I'm I'm in New York. I'm living New York

0:50

for twelve years, and I am in

0:52

Los Angeles right now. So yes,

0:55

I have a lot of people think about me if they think about

0:57

New York City. So you're not You're

0:59

not off. Now, who's got the better stand

1:02

up audience? Do you rather do stand up in l

1:04

A or in New York. Well, I haven't done a lot of

1:06

stand up here in LA because I moved through during the pandemic,

1:08

But New York City have. I've

1:11

been around the world, and I can say

1:14

New York City has the best audiences in the world. I

1:16

can confidently say that they're's,

1:18

they're hypercritical and if they laugh,

1:21

you know it's because you are killing

1:26

Wait that what about hecklers? Do you like hecklers

1:28

or not? Well, I'm from the game bar scenes.

1:30

I'm used to hecklers. Like I'm

1:32

in the game bar. We have hecklers like drunk

1:35

people like twenty four seven. So

1:37

when I went to the like comedy clubs and people were

1:39

like respectful and quiet, I was like, I'm

1:42

not used to being treated this. I

1:45

felt like, like like Julia Roberts and a pretty

1:47

woman. I was like, I'm not used to nice things.

1:53

You know. I love comedy clubs and

1:55

uh. I always think in the back of my mind that

1:58

before I have a friend who's older. He always

2:00

tells me I'll have a good life if one of the

2:02

things I do is if I do stand up before

2:05

I turn one hundred and if I get at least

2:07

one person I'm not related to the laugh. So I

2:09

want to do a little stand up. Maybe I'll come

2:11

see you one day and learn from you a little bit.

2:14

Well, I mean before you're a hundred, they really

2:16

set the bar. I

2:18

mean, they really give you a deadline.

2:21

They're like, just do it before you're a hundred. Normally

2:23

folks are like before you're thirty, before you fifty,

2:26

they're like, just before you're a hundred. If

2:28

you can squeeze in one night of stand

2:30

up, one night of stand up. Wait,

2:32

now, how old were you when you did your first one? My

2:35

first time doing stand up, I was twenty

2:38

three years old. Oh okay

2:41

that was that was twelve years ago. Okay,

2:43

okay, I'm thirty five. Now I don't I don't. I don't force

2:45

you to do math. Thank you

2:47

for saving me. Wait, no, no, where

2:49

did you grow up? You didn't grow up in New York

2:52

though, Now I grew up in Georgia.

2:54

I grew up in what I grew up around the South Georgia,

2:56

Alabama, and Mississippi,

2:59

and I landed in New York ADI when I was twenty

3:02

two, and then I pretty much started

3:04

doing drag almost right away,

3:06

like almost immediately. Now, what was young

3:08

Bob like? Like if I had met young Bob nine,

3:11

what was what was young Bob? Like? This

3:13

is kind of loud, boisterous.

3:16

I really wanted to be a Disney kid. Really

3:19

was like obsessed with a notion of being like a Nickelodeon

3:22

kid or wanted to be in show. But I

3:24

wanted to be on Barney when I was really young. Um,

3:27

and I ended up on different

3:29

shows nothing like Barney, but I ended up on TV

3:32

still. Um. But yeah, I just

3:34

like was really a boisterous kid

3:37

who had a very strong desire

3:39

to be on television, Like very strong.

3:42

Anyone else in your circle was

3:44

on TV or had been on TV?

3:47

No, my mom is an accountant. Um,

3:50

my brother went to culinary school. Um,

3:53

I have I have one cousin who

3:56

who was the musician. So

3:59

shout out to Bentley called, well, my

4:03

shout out to my cousin Bentley, Um,

4:06

who is like a a

4:08

um not country musician but

4:10

not not country That makes any sense?

4:13

Yeah that's uh. Um.

4:15

I don't know why I'm going here. But did

4:17

I see that you interviewed Christian Walker?

4:21

Yes? I did, I interviewed Yeah, I interviewed a Christian

4:23

Walker on my on my YouTube page.

4:25

That was wild. Yeah,

4:28

what was that about? What do you think?

4:30

So? Okay? I stumbled okay, christ

4:33

I because I engaged. So I'm putting on my last

4:35

two nails. Oh

4:37

you know. It is a party. It's a party,

4:39

That's what this is. This is a party. Um.

4:42

When I so, I stumbled across Christian

4:44

Walker in my tick talking and

4:47

I was like, oh my god, this this print. Like remember

4:49

thinking myself, like is he serious? Can

4:52

this really be how he feels? As

4:54

he really think this way? And

4:56

then um, I was like, I want

4:58

to talk to him because I don't I

5:00

believe in reaching across the aisle, you know what I mean? And

5:03

I was like, this guy needs some help from

5:05

some queers who are not I

5:08

don't know. I just felt like he I wanted

5:10

to hear his side of things. So I

5:12

sat down and I talked to him, And

5:15

in talking to him, what I realized was I don't

5:18

think he's beyond saving. I

5:20

don't think I think very few people are beyond

5:22

saving. Even Candice Owens isn't

5:25

beyond saving. I think that Candice

5:27

is deep in the mire of

5:29

of um the male gaze,

5:31

the white male gaze at that, um.

5:34

And there's something about being admired by people

5:36

that you admire, um, or people that

5:38

you find respectable that gives

5:41

you a validity. Well,

5:43

go more with this Candice Owens thing, because

5:45

I hadn't heard this before. So wait, who's

5:47

loving her? And therefore who is she loving? So

5:50

I think that Candice Owen gets a lot of respect from

5:52

a lot of conservative people. Um,

5:55

a lot of the white males, says

5:57

white males, um, Ben Shapiro,

6:00

those um, people like that

6:02

who like tout her as one of the

6:04

good ones, you

6:06

know, one of the good ones. Um.

6:10

But also it takes a lot to acknowledge

6:12

what it means to be one of the good

6:14

ones, Like what what is that saying about your

6:17

counterparts who are like you?

6:19

You know? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,

6:22

so you think Candice Owens.

6:24

Let's go back to Christian Walker, young

6:27

black gay Trump's supporter

6:29

who was very active on TikTok and other

6:31

places, son of former Heisman

6:33

Trophy winning running back Herschel

6:36

Walker. So the number of people used to know his dad

6:38

and people were and his dad's thinking about running

6:40

for the Senate in Georgia. With President

6:42

Trump's encouragement. Um,

6:45

you to know that. Now you know it. So

6:49

Christian Walker surprise

6:51

a lot of people because even before

6:53

people knew herschel Walker was out there supporting

6:55

Trump. All of a sudden, here was

6:58

this young fellow, and

7:00

people didn't know whether he was serious or not. As you said,

7:02

people are like, is he joking or does he really

7:04

mean it? And the reason people don't know is because

7:06

he is flam I mean he's he's a very flamboyant

7:09

gay man. He's like, yes, Mama,

7:12

I'll get the UMPTO,

7:14

hold the b l M. So

7:16

it's almost sounds like an SNL character

7:19

until you talk to him, You're like, no, this is

7:21

this is really how you genuinely feel

7:23

in real life. Um.

7:27

And but he's also coming from an extremely

7:29

privileged place. Obviously,

7:31

his father is wealthy and famous.

7:34

He lives in in um

7:36

Beverly Hills as a college

7:38

student with no job, and drives

7:41

drive like a like a Mercedes of Bentley. So obviously

7:44

he's clearly living some sort of a privileged

7:46

life, right right right,

7:48

Well, and you and you had a good cordial

7:50

conversation with him, you would say, yeah,

7:53

yeah, I think it was cordial. I think that. Um,

7:55

I was able to offer

7:58

a rebuttal to a lot of things that he would say

8:00

in regards to like a poor mentality

8:03

or or or why the black community is broke

8:06

and stuff like that. Um.

8:08

And I was pretty proud of myself

8:10

for keeping it calm, because

8:12

I like to pop off. I'm a pop off queen and I

8:15

like to I like to go ham

8:17

as the kids say. Um. But

8:19

when talking to a Christian, I was actually really

8:22

able to kind of like keep it chill,

8:25

you know. Huh? And why was that? Did

8:27

you like go into it saying I'm gonna keep

8:29

it chill or was there just something about

8:31

being with him and in that moment that made you say,

8:34

let me be this and not that. Well.

8:36

I I also acknowledge that sometimes people

8:38

like Candice Owens or Christian Walker

8:41

engage in inflammatory

8:43

comments as a way to get a get a rise

8:45

out of people. I mean, I don't know

8:47

that Christian or Candice would ever acknowledge

8:49

it, but a part of what they do is trolling,

8:52

Like a big part of it is trolling.

8:55

Like Candice can talk about anything Cannica like

8:57

can talk about anything in the world. When it says

8:59

she chew is just hot button issues like Harry

9:01

Styles were in her dress or um

9:04

Cardi B talking about her on TV,

9:06

and she's like, this is

9:09

the bad thing. Like, I

9:11

there's all this stuff going on, but I'm specifically

9:13

choosing to attack Cardi B. And obviously

9:16

the reason she's attacking Cardi B is because at the same time,

9:18

she's promoting her show that's coming out, and

9:21

then one fuels the other. So

9:23

then she now that she's trending because she's

9:25

been arguing with Cardi B for twelve

9:27

hours on Twitter. She's like, my show

9:30

is trending, and they're like, actually,

9:32

you're trending because you were fighting with Cardi B. It's

9:34

not it's not your show. But

9:38

you know what, as as W used to

9:40

say, that's strategicy, So uh

9:43

oh, it's definitely it's definitely strategic

9:45

yeah, strategicy. Yeah. But

9:47

but also as W said, you know food Man

9:49

fool me, uh, fool me once? Uh

9:51

second time? Kate fool me two times. Do you remember

9:54

that time when he got in front of the crowd

9:56

and he was like, fool me once? Shame

9:58

Wait is it shame on me if

10:00

you fool me too? Um,

10:02

you can't fool me twice? You know what, people

10:05

forget how funny W was. W

10:08

is funny? I mean not

10:11

when it comes to launching wars and stuff like

10:13

that, yeah, but all the other stuff, he's

10:16

very funny. Yeah. As a as an entity,

10:18

as a as a international

10:21

entity, George W. Bush.

10:23

He was kind of like the second

10:25

coming of Ross Perrow. Remember how Ross

10:27

Pero nice? Yeah?

10:31

I remember being a kid. And Amanda

10:33

Binds did a parody of Ross

10:36

Perro on the Sketch Show all that.

10:39

Huh talk about

10:41

combining interesting people, Amanda

10:44

Binds and Ross Barrow. That's

10:46

a good Cobbo. So she she parodied,

10:49

she played, she played Ross Perro because

10:51

back in the oh my

10:53

God, in the nineties, obviously when

10:55

he was running for president, uh different

10:57

people would play the

11:00

is in this on the show very much like I said now, but it was for children,

11:02

and they turned Ross Perow into this like

11:05

really goofy, big eared, wealthy,

11:08

almost Trumpian character. Um.

11:11

But obviously on Nickelodeon they were not going deep

11:13

into uh politics, shall

11:15

we say it was Nickelodeon.

11:18

Wait, hold on a second, so keep going on with

11:20

who young Bob was? So young Bob

11:23

needed to be on TV, needed

11:25

to be a Disney kid need to be a celebrity.

11:28

So young Bob was not an introvert. Young

11:30

Bob was not quiet. No,

11:32

no, Well,

11:34

I just always really enjoyed

11:37

attention, and I'm comfortable telling people

11:39

that, like, like some people are like, I don't want to say I love

11:41

attention. I've always loved attention since

11:44

I was a kid who would have yelled at my mom, look at

11:46

me, like actually say

11:49

the words, look at look

11:51

at me, mom, Look

11:54

look I'm doing the thing. I really

11:57

need you to focus on me. Uh.

11:59

I was. I was a cry baby. I remember

12:02

when I was a kid. I have a brother who was about two year older

12:04

than me, and whenever we would get something

12:06

we would we would be forced to get

12:08

the same thing. So like if I got a bag of chips,

12:10

he got a bag of chips. If I got any bud, he got a honey

12:12

bun. What I would do is I would eat my entire

12:15

bag of chips really fast,

12:17

and then I would be like, oh my god, it's so unfair. Justice

12:20

still has chips. I deserved

12:23

as his chips because

12:25

you said we have to have the same thing. So

12:28

if we have to be equal, then

12:30

Justin has to give me and my mom

12:32

would be like no, but then I would convince my brother to

12:34

give me his. I was like, we have to be equal. Mom said,

12:37

so you you technically must

12:39

give me chips.

12:41

Now. I love that you said that. You just openly

12:44

needed attention and you just say that

12:46

to your mom. So what, so what what's

12:48

your mom like? Okay, So my mom's okay.

12:50

First of all, my mom is very uh patient.

12:53

I was a really interesting

12:55

kid. I remember like I've always loved

12:57

debating ever since I which I end up with

12:59

this pod that's called silviing rivalry. I love debating

13:01

people. And I remember like telling

13:04

my mom like, hey, I really feel like we need to have a

13:06

later bedtime. I really feel like this

13:09

is my right as an American, um

13:11

I deserve. So I actually had

13:14

a whole presentation, like a whole

13:16

presentation where I

13:19

I gathered information. I gathered some data

13:21

from school. I averaged out the bedtimes

13:23

of kids. I compared it to our bedtime.

13:27

M I unionized with my brother. We

13:29

got together. We were on the same page. I

13:32

gave my mom all the data and then she agrees

13:34

to give us and my mom is very patient. She listens.

13:37

My mom is very accepting She never forced

13:39

me to do things that I was

13:41

uncomfortable doing, and she really

13:43

let me express myself from a really young

13:45

age. Huh. And and what

13:48

about drag would your mom in the drag

13:50

did she encouraged that? You

13:52

know about it? So my mom owned

13:55

a drag bar when I was younger. So that

13:57

yeah, like my mom used to own a drag bar in

13:59

Columbus, George you called Sensations.

14:01

So if you're queer and you went to

14:03

go went to Sensations in Columbus, Georgia

14:05

and the the mid to late

14:07

nineties, that was my mom's bar. And

14:10

um, and I'm not I'm also not the only queer

14:12

person in my family, So it's not I wasn't like I

14:15

wasn't you know, breaking new ice. Wait

14:17

wait, but go back to your mom owning

14:19

that bar. What made her open up the

14:21

bar and own the bar? I'm not even

14:24

sure her and a couple of friends opened it together.

14:26

I was always had a lot of queer friends. Um,

14:28

and they opened up this day, they

14:30

got together and opened up a bar like as like

14:32

a collective, and um,

14:35

it was quite popular and really kind

14:37

of a big deal. And and

14:39

I mean I've always I've been I've had queer people around

14:41

me my whole life, so I wasn't like and I wasn't

14:43

like, you know, the first queer person I

14:45

knew, thank God. And so when did you realize

14:48

you were queer? I mean I remember feeling

14:51

like I was doing something

14:53

wrong, you

14:56

know, um, from a from a pretty from

14:58

a pretty young age, maybe as

15:01

far back as I can remember, like as far back as

15:03

I can remember. I remember having crushes

15:05

on boys and on girls, um,

15:08

and thinking that I had to like hide

15:11

that. But but you said your mom

15:13

was very understanding

15:16

loving, So who are you hiding it from? Well?

15:18

I think I was hiding it from the world at large because I always

15:20

say, you know, I've been I've been talking about raising

15:22

kids a lot lately because I'm thirty five or thirty

15:24

four, and I'm like, it's probably time. If I'm gonna

15:27

do you have any kids? Nope, No, not

15:29

that I know of. If

15:33

you're watching this right now, you're going to Carls the kids,

15:35

please contact us, Please

15:38

contact Bob. Please contact

15:41

Bob. Yeah

15:44

exactly. Um, but I'm like, so,

15:46

anyways, I've been talking about like, um, you know, when

15:48

you're raising a kid, you're not raising a kid for yourself. The

15:50

world is also raising your kid as well, you

15:52

know what I mean, uncle's aunts, uh,

15:55

school, um, church. So

15:57

all the places I went all had a hand in my

16:00

feeling ashamed of myself at the time.

16:03

But but and I know people could have multiple

16:05

feelings going on at once. But I'm

16:08

also hearing a confident kid. I'm

16:10

hearing a kid who knew that he

16:12

was loved by his mom. I'm very kid who loved

16:14

attention. I'm ry kid who loved

16:16

to make an argument to unionize, as

16:18

you said, and

16:21

to do your thing. So when

16:23

I made high school, Bob is high school

16:25

Bob feeling good about himself and the world

16:27

house slide school Bob feeling At that point, well,

16:30

more or less, I went through a really

16:32

weird religious phase, which

16:34

is I am not religious

16:38

at all. If anything, I'm actually anti religion,

16:41

especially organized Judeo Christian

16:43

religions. Um. I mean, I

16:45

personally think that that religion is probably

16:47

one of the biggest detriments to the Black community. But

16:50

that's a whole different diet tribe I can get on right now.

16:52

I mean, we are genuinely

16:54

being forced to uh we Black

16:57

Americans specifically, and now a lot in

16:59

Africa as well, have been forced to worship

17:01

gods that we did not believe

17:04

in. And if we were to worship our own gods,

17:06

then we would be killed. If we were

17:08

to practice our own culture in this country,

17:10

you were to be killed. If you were to speak your

17:12

own language, you were to be killed. Um.

17:14

And then we had Christianity forced on us. But anyway,

17:16

that's by the point. I went through a really interesting Christian

17:19

phase when I was in like

17:22

ten, seventh,

17:25

tenth grade. I got super religious,

17:27

and there was a period of time there where I was,

17:30

you know, hiding myself from myself

17:32

as well as the people around me, you

17:34

know, trying to hide who I was so that no one would

17:36

find out the real me in an attempt

17:39

to uh to receive

17:41

some sort of salvation. And if

17:44

I had spoken to your brother at the time or your

17:46

mom at the time, would did they know? I

17:49

think anyone within a ten mile radius

17:51

of me knew. I mean I was, I

17:54

mean Carlos, I was the president of the drama

17:56

club. I

17:59

was the raeographer for the step team.

18:01

So yeah, I think everyone knew um.

18:05

But but I do remember being

18:07

younger and thinking to myself, like one of the saddest

18:09

I remember thinking was if I

18:12

remember, I'll never forget. I remember being young and

18:14

like being being closeted and

18:16

thinking to myself, if I can just

18:19

graduate college, I

18:21

graduate high school, make it to college, and then

18:23

I don't have to say in the closet for like four years,

18:26

and then maybe I can get married and

18:28

then I just won't ever tell anyone,

18:31

and then I don't have to do is just do

18:33

that until I die, and then I'll get

18:35

to go to heaven. And that was that

18:38

was my plan. That was the plan. Wow,

18:41

alright, So when did the plan get better?

18:43

When when did you let that whole plan go

18:45

and get to When I got

18:48

to college, I my first semester

18:50

at college, I was still closet

18:53

and I and I, um, I came out

18:55

and the like I remember being like, I have to, I

18:57

have to get this off my chest. So I went to spare

19:00

innswers. I don't even know

19:02

if they still have Spencers at the Mall anymore. Back back

19:04

back in the day, they had these these

19:06

stores called Spencer's at the Mall, And

19:09

when you go to Spencer's um

19:12

they would sell like like shirts with

19:14

the running catchphrases on them and like

19:17

lava lamps and magnets

19:19

and pins, but they had a little, a little

19:21

queer section. So I bought

19:23

this rainbow cuff links and a rainbow

19:26

belt, and I wore it everywhere.

19:28

That was my way of coming out. I don't even care everyone with my outfit.

19:30

Nowadays, I would never wear a rainbow because rainbows

19:33

are so tacky, unless

19:35

it's pride. I were wondering prode um. But

19:37

I remember wearing it being like wearing it everywhere, like

19:39

aggressively, because I remember like

19:42

I wanted to just come like come out of the closet, like

19:44

you know, guns and blazing and

19:46

and you were warmly received. There

19:49

was hesitation. Well,

19:51

I was in the theater department and

19:53

at a college, so within that

19:56

community I was pretty well received. Um,

19:58

but I was still going to college in Columbus,

20:01

Georgia, so there were definitely

20:03

people at my school that there would be um

20:05

religious protests at my school, UM,

20:09

you know, preaching against um

20:11

loose women and homosexuality

20:14

and trans people um.

20:17

And as a as

20:19

a I remember particularly

20:21

feeling like I was finally

20:24

on the right path and on the right side.

20:26

So those people didn't phase me. I

20:29

had a strong network of people around me who really

20:32

accepting me for who I was. I mean, I've just been

20:34

so lucky. But to my family, my friends,

20:36

my colleagues, my partners, I'm

20:39

just so lucky to have a really supportive system around

20:41

me. You do feel like even

20:43

just talking to you, you do feel

20:46

grounded, and you feel like there's a

20:48

firmness to you that I often don't

20:50

see when I talk to people. And

20:52

I think it's a blessing to go through the world

20:54

and to feel, um,

20:57

not that everything is perfect, but to feel at peace,

20:59

for us, to feel very comfortable with

21:01

yourself. Well, I think a big part

21:03

of that, honestly came from me

21:06

finding my own um

21:09

higher power. Um.

21:11

You know, when I was, when I was relying

21:13

on like the Judaeo Christian concept

21:16

of God to be my higher power, I

21:18

wasn't able to form my own

21:21

moral compass. My

21:23

moral compass was essentially set for

21:26

me. All of my beliefs were

21:28

set for me, they were decided for me.

21:30

I had no saying the matter, you know what I

21:32

mean? And when there whenever there was something

21:34

in the Bible that I remember thinking myself, I don't know that I agree

21:36

with that necessarily. Um,

21:39

but that's not how that works. You're not allowed

21:41

to question those things because the rules

21:43

are set and the consequences are dire.

21:47

It's not just life and death. It's much more intense than

21:49

life and death. It's afterlife and

21:51

eternal damnation, you

21:53

know what I mean? Um? And

21:55

then once I realized that I was able to set

21:57

my own moral compass based on my own beliefs, and

22:00

that my higher power is now logic and reasoning

22:02

in science, I've just been able

22:05

to be a lot happier. There's something to me a

22:07

lot more soothing. I don't know how

22:09

we got here. I'm really off the rails. There anything

22:11

more soothing about the notion of living my

22:13

life as it is, and

22:16

that's in my life? Is this is my life?

22:18

Like there's no second time, there's no afterlife,

22:21

there's no um redo,

22:24

there's no reincarnation. This is

22:26

what I have. This is the only chance I get.

22:29

This is my opportunity to do things, you

22:32

know what I mean? Yeah? You know I've heard people

22:34

say versions of that, which is uh. You've

22:36

heard that phrase. Life is what's happening while you're

22:38

planning for something else, Like like this

22:40

is right now and I have another friend

22:43

who I work with, Kimmy who she

22:45

has a watch, an expensive watch

22:48

that doesn't tell you the time. It just says

22:50

pay attention to right now, which

22:54

is uh, which we were making fun of her

22:56

for. But now that you say this, maybe we all need

22:58

one of those watches. But

23:00

if it's it's real, it really makes

23:02

sense, like like what we're doing right this is

23:05

your shot? You know what I mean? This is?

23:08

This is and also like luve idea of

23:10

like if I'm a good person, obviously

23:12

that's the word is subjective, you know, based

23:14

on my own moral comperence, I'm a good person. It's

23:16

because I want to be a good person. There's no reward

23:19

coming down the line for being a

23:21

good person. Necessarily, I'm doing

23:23

it because I inherently feel like being

23:26

good. When I was um, I didn't find as Christian.

23:28

I was being good out of fear of

23:31

retribution. Interesting, do you

23:34

is your mom? Is your mom religious? When she called

23:36

herself Christian? My

23:38

whole family is full of Christians. I'm the

23:40

only uh Heathen And

23:44

so so what do they say when they hear you say

23:47

this? Well, my mom has just been hearing

23:49

me say the things I say for

23:51

years. She just like that's my son, that's

23:54

my child. You know,

23:57

my mom is used to and my my mom

23:59

also believes. Mom was one of the Christians who believe

24:01

that if you're good, you go to heaven um

24:04

um. And also as far as she's

24:06

concerned, I got baptized years ago. So

24:09

as far as as far as Baptists

24:11

go, I'm good, like I

24:13

am. I did the work

24:15

I got baptized, I

24:17

mean Baptist. It's such an interesting

24:20

sect of Christianity because you really can just

24:22

do whatever you there's

24:25

no consequences,

24:28

just like, go around baptized

24:30

bloodocrips bloodocrize. I'm good, You're

24:33

good, all right, deuces,

24:35

Like because I got baptism and I was five, I

24:38

don't mean it's

24:40

nice work if you can get it, you know. But you

24:42

know there's a there's a

24:45

as a grandson of a Baptist minister,

24:48

I know what you're saying, and I know that, uh

24:51

that there's a belief that it stays with you for a

24:53

long time, for the whole time, the whole

24:55

time. It's it's just it's on you. It

24:57

is on you now. You can't watch it off. Now.

25:17

Talk about what happened after college

25:19

First of all, what did you study in college? What did you study?

25:22

I studied theater education, so

25:24

I didn't finish college. I went

25:26

to school. I studied theater education.

25:29

And while I was in college, I was simultaneously

25:31

working for theater programs. So this

25:34

theater company came to our school. They entered,

25:36

they auditioned us, and they only hired one

25:38

one student. It was me. So

25:40

I got hired to work in Minneapolis,

25:42

Minnesota, UM doing

25:45

this UH theater internship. And

25:47

I remember thinking, oh my god, I'm like, I'm a

25:49

working actor. I don't

25:51

I don't need school. I'm a working actor.

25:54

And then I ended up, UM

25:56

going back to school anyway, Okay,

25:59

I'll go back to school. Went back to school,

26:01

and then I got another job

26:04

as an actor. And then I remember thinking

26:06

myself like I had this one friend of mine who said,

26:08

you know, if you go straight to New York,

26:10

I'll buy your plane ticket. He was like,

26:12

you've got something specially if you go straight to New York, I'll

26:15

buy your ticket for you. And I

26:17

said, oh my god, are you serious? And then he

26:19

gave me a ticket and I didn't and I didn't look back, and I

26:21

moved to New York City. And that was in two thousand and eight. We're

26:24

in New York City. I moved to Okay,

26:27

I was a

26:29

bounce around. I moved to Woodside Queens

26:31

and I had this friend in the Woodside Queens. Shout

26:34

out Stephen Um. Stephen

26:36

said. Stephen said, you know, buddy, when I

26:38

moved to New York City, my friends kicked

26:40

me out after one week and I will never do that

26:42

to you. And he stayed true does word because

26:44

he kicked me out after four days and I didn't even

26:46

make it for a week. So he kicked me out

26:49

after four days. And I was like, I'm in New

26:51

York City. What am I gonna do? And then

26:53

I ended up living around the corner

26:55

and Woodside with this lady named Sharifa

26:58

who was renting out her living room to me. Then I moved. I

27:00

was on the Park and then I moved to um

27:02

Long Island City and then I moved to the Upper

27:05

West Side and I lived there for maybe seven

27:07

or eight years, and then I lived lived

27:10

in Washington Heights for three years. So

27:12

how are you making money this whole time? Drugs?

27:15

Hooking and I'm kidding, slag,

27:17

I don't know I'm just kidding. I was no

27:21

kidding. I was like, um,

27:25

I was um. So I

27:27

had a lot of jobs. I used to all right,

27:30

all right, where where do you live? I live in the Bay

27:32

Area. Okay, that's where. Okay, I used

27:34

live in the Mayor two. I's living in East Bay

27:36

where Berkeley. I

27:38

used to I was doing the show at the at the Berkeley.

27:41

I did Angels in America at the Berkeley Repertory Theater

27:43

like two years ago, and I was there for like six months. So

27:46

in New York City, there's these people who stopped you on

27:48

the street and they go, hey, um,

27:50

do you care about kids? Hey, do

27:53

you have a second to talk about kids who need

27:55

help? I was one of those people. I worked

27:57

their job for two weeks. Okay,

27:59

yeah,

27:59

I got

28:02

fired from that job for being really

28:04

bad at it. Um.

28:06

And then I got a job waiting tables

28:08

at a at a themed restaurant called the jackal and

28:11

High Club, which is very much like

28:13

the restaurant and I'm breaka well Kimmi Schmidt.

28:16

It was like a haunted restaurant where like characters

28:18

roam around. I worked there for maybe

28:20

four years. I did real estate

28:22

and I was doing drag. So about the last

28:25

like, um, before a drag race, for

28:27

like three or four years, I was doing full time drag

28:30

and making good money doing drag. Yeah,

28:32

I mean making good money for myself. I mean I I I

28:35

would say I was up unto that point in my life. I was making

28:37

more money than I had ever made in my life. I'll put to you that

28:40

way. You know that's exciting, Okay,

28:42

And then did you think you were gonna win RuPaul's

28:45

drag race? Yeah? You know,

28:47

I've always believed in myself. I mean I again,

28:49

I have one of those moms who just really thinks

28:51

that I'm just the best ever.

28:53

Like my mom really thinks I am better than everyone

28:56

in the world. So when you grew up with that energy

28:58

around you, you honestly believe you can

29:00

do anything. You

29:02

really think like these don't stand

29:04

a chance against me because Martha

29:07

Caldwell said I was the best, And why would my mom?

29:09

Lie? Did

29:12

you do any tricky, dirty stuff against

29:14

the competitors? No, I played, well,

29:16

there was one every once in

29:18

a while, but maybe do a little something

29:21

here and there to get the edge of but nothing like survivor

29:24

style, like they're wild on Survivor. I

29:26

was just using my skills and techniques.

29:29

But I've seen on Survivor they they're

29:31

wild on that show. Honey, you know I had um.

29:34

Christen Siriano told me when he was

29:36

uh, when he was on reality

29:39

he said, um, he said, this

29:41

is uh, this is like mind warfare. He

29:43

said that. He said, the best thing he did on the

29:45

reality show was unnerved the other

29:48

people. He said, if they couldn't focus

29:50

and they couldn't design, he

29:52

was gonna win. Well, I do remember one

29:54

time being backstage. So

29:57

at the end of the season, they actually do this thing

29:59

where they limit eight everyone one

30:01

by one, but they only air one so

30:03

that way you don't know who's in the top three. No one

30:05

knows until they aired on TV. So

30:07

when was my turn? And I got eliminated. When

30:10

you when you're eliminated, there's a little

30:12

short period of time where you're sitting backstage, just

30:14

you and RuPaul. There's no one, no producers,

30:17

It's just you and RuPaul. And

30:20

when I was back there, me and I said something

30:22

I came up. When I said, RuPaul laughed and

30:25

then I laughed and then someone Then

30:27

one of my competitors, Kim, she was a good friend of mine him

30:29

say, what did you guys? What were you laughing about? And

30:32

I said, you're not gonna believe this. RuPaul

30:34

just looked at me and said, you're gonna win

30:36

the show. I've already decided

30:39

you're the winner. And Kim was

30:41

like, wait really, and I was like, yeah, that's

30:45

what she said to me. She said that I've

30:47

been chosen as the winner from the beginning.

30:49

So yikes,

30:55

you can leave early if you want, really

30:58

go, don't even try, because

31:00

this is what we all know that I'm winning. But it

31:03

was nice competing with you. You know, I

31:06

didn't really shake her up, you think, I mean, maybe

31:08

a little. I don't know. We don't have to ask him before to

31:11

get the full details on whether or not that uh

31:14

actually had an effect on her. Now,

31:16

now, you know, my producers were telling me coming into

31:19

this, so you identify as gender non

31:21

binary? Yeah, yeah, here,

31:24

here's a really confusing concept. I identify

31:26

as a non I identify most

31:29

of my life and this especially right now, as a non

31:31

binary man. Now. I know that sounds wild

31:33

because it sounds like you're saying non binary, but

31:35

then you're saying man, and it's and

31:38

it's a lot about how I perceived myself

31:40

and about how I'm perceived as well. So

31:42

say more so, Okay,

31:45

so I identify as non binary, which means

31:47

like, you know, I don't.

31:49

I don't. I don't identify as a man, I don't identify

31:51

as a woman, identify as gender

31:54

fluids somewhere on the spectrum. Um,

31:56

My gender expression is very

31:58

varied, Like as of now, I

32:00

mean, this is my these are my work clothes, but

32:03

when I'm out of drag, I still sometimes

32:05

were dresses or heels or um

32:08

or something that is a little bit more genderless in

32:10

my presentation. But I

32:12

also realized that navigating through the world,

32:14

people are experiencing me from their side

32:17

as a queer man. You know what I

32:19

mean. You're saying, most people are who know

32:22

you, or people who don't even know you

32:24

if they see you walking down the street. Yeah,

32:26

people who just see me walking down the street of life, that's just

32:28

some gay guy. Interesting. Interesting.

32:32

And so if they didn't

32:35

receive you as that way, and if they received

32:37

you differently, do you think you would identify differently?

32:40

No, not necessarily. You know, gender

32:43

expression for me anyway, and I can't speak other people

32:45

for me it's about how I feel and about how I

32:48

um am navigating the world because the idea

32:50

that so here's something, especially in

32:52

the black community. I'm so excited we're talking to

32:55

a black man about this, the

32:57

notion that gender is

33:00

completely a social construct,

33:03

and people go, no, it's not, No, it's not, and I

33:05

say, but it is, But it is. I mean, we

33:07

gender things that don't even have anatomy

33:11

all the time. You look at the set

33:14

of Liberty and you call it as she without even

33:16

questioning it. You use she pronouns

33:19

without even questioning it. We

33:21

we use these terms for our clothes,

33:23

for our cars, for fictional

33:26

characters that don't even exist, that aren't even

33:28

tangible in the slightest of ways.

33:31

Um, But we have a hard time giving

33:33

that same um respect

33:37

and acknowledgement to human

33:39

beings walking among us. I find it. I

33:41

remember being really uh bothered

33:45

by a lot of people choosing to dead name

33:47

when I say dead names, when you're using a

33:49

transperson's name who doesn't identify

33:51

with that name anymore, meaning the name they were given at

33:54

birth. UM. A lot of people were doing it to Caitlyn

33:56

Jenner when she first came out and Caitlyn Jenner has

33:59

she's a problem attic. I know that that that

34:02

aside, she still deserves uh two,

34:04

people deserve to use her pronouns, you know what I mean. She

34:07

deserves that people use her pronouns and her in her real name,

34:09

which is Caitlyn Jenner. But I'm still intrigued

34:11

that in the sometimes in the black community, we will

34:13

call a grown man walk a flock

34:16

of flame, you

34:18

know what I mean, But we won't call Caitlyn

34:20

Jenner Caitlin Jenner. We will we will

34:23

look at doctor Dre who has

34:25

a PhD In nothing, and

34:29

just be like, you're a doctor. You are

34:31

a doctor. You are a doctor,

34:34

Dre. But have a hard time.

34:36

And I was watching TS. Tess Madison is an

34:38

amazing trans woman has who has a new show just came

34:41

out recently, actually a reality show, and

34:43

she's having a talk with her father which is so raw

34:45

and so amazing that we're able to see

34:47

these conversations on TV. And

34:50

she's talking about what it means to her father

34:53

for him to use her

34:55

proper pronouns and her name,

34:58

and he's just looking at her saying, I can't

35:00

do that. But this there's

35:03

also not completely new people do that. People

35:05

do this to people, um in a

35:07

lot of different regards. People did this to Muhammad

35:10

Ali when he no longer wanted to use his

35:12

own name, and people were being

35:14

like, when I know you is this I get to call you this? You

35:16

know? Right? Right? So say

35:20

more about where you think we

35:22

as a black community are on

35:25

the question on a broad set of questions

35:27

that include gender expression, that include

35:30

sexuality, where where do you? Where

35:32

do you think we are? Do you think we're in a meaningfully

35:35

different place than we were even five ten

35:37

years ago? Do you think that we look out

35:39

at the conversations and say that's upper middle

35:41

class white people having a conversation

35:44

Caitlyn Jenner and that that's not our conversation?

35:47

Where where do you think we are? To the extent

35:49

that um uh? And I

35:51

realized there's not one answer to this question.

35:53

But but you probably because

35:55

you travel the country and the world, and

35:58

from California to Georgia

36:00

you see many different parts of it.

36:03

Where do you think we are as a community

36:05

right now? On some of these questions? I think we're

36:07

on the right track. But for me, the trains

36:09

moving too slow, you know what I mean? Because

36:12

there are lots of people who don't have the

36:15

time to wait

36:18

for us to get it right. You

36:20

know what I mean, I am and I

36:22

am hopeful when I see people in

36:25

the Black community who are um

36:28

really pushing the boundaries on what it means

36:30

to express yourself through gender

36:33

expression. I mean gender expression, gender

36:35

identity, pronouns, sexual orientation

36:37

are all separate things and some people

36:39

they usually line up in a societal

36:42

way that everyone recognizes. Straight says

36:45

gendered male who likes women. That's

36:47

what people see mostly, But there are

36:49

some people who who who dresses like a man through

36:51

gender expression. But then you have people, and

36:54

not just queer people, but also

36:57

there are some straight people, some straight

36:59

says gender people prints um

37:02

Dennis Robman, who are also pushing

37:04

the boundaries of what it means to express yourself

37:06

through gender expression. You

37:08

know what I mean, And and and and I

37:10

also love that, and I'm also really happy to see.

37:13

I always think you can always rely on

37:16

progress from black women always,

37:19

you know what I mean, A lot of time as

37:22

a whole, black women will get there and then

37:24

black men will show up, you know, a

37:27

decade and a half later, being like, oh

37:29

maybe y'all were right. Well,

37:32

I hope that that's not true. But as the brother

37:34

of three sisters, is possible that you're right? So

37:37

um interested you do you think

37:39

that that that sis black men

37:41

in particular are gonna be that far

37:44

behind black women on some of

37:46

these questions. I would,

37:48

I hate to say it, but I do. I think that it

37:51

is gonna be. It is gonna be the job

37:53

of let's right now, just like we

37:56

need. I was having a discussion

37:58

with a friend of mine. We can not dismantled

38:00

racism in America without white people because

38:03

white people built it. They have the blueprint. White

38:06

people in this country have created

38:08

an intricate, um

38:11

complex network

38:13

that involves a lot of racism is baked

38:16

into the language, literally written

38:19

into the language of our constitution.

38:22

Racism is there. So in order

38:24

to deconstruct racism, white people

38:26

are gonna have to participate. In order

38:28

to deconstruct transphobia

38:31

and homophobia in the Black

38:33

community, black sis gendered

38:36

men, straight black sins men are

38:38

going to have to participate in

38:40

that deconstruction. So whenever you

38:42

see like for example, maybe maybe maybe

38:45

maybe the breakfast club sensationalizing

38:48

hip hop artists who have sex

38:51

with trans women, maybe not sensationalizing

38:54

that calling um all

38:56

the all the men who hook

38:58

up the trans women, calling them gay and

39:01

doing it in a negative connotation, making

39:03

it seem like there's something wrong with them

39:06

for being attracted to another

39:08

consenting adult. They

39:10

are engaging in the their own damasculization,

39:13

you know what I mean. Do you think that

39:15

more straight cist black

39:18

men who are in consenting

39:21

relationships with trans

39:23

women? Do you think that more

39:26

people will come out and have that conversation

39:29

over the next year two three? Do you think there's

39:31

enough space for those

39:33

conversations to be had? I think that

39:36

I think that more people will come forward. And

39:38

I think that it also stems from

39:40

not shaming um people

39:43

for expressing their love to another consenting

39:46

adult. I can't even fathom why

39:48

that would be anyone else's

39:51

business to begin with, you know what I mean?

39:54

UM. And then also people saying I don't have a problem.

39:56

I don't have a problem with that. You do? If

39:58

you have to say out loud now, I don't gotta um, you

40:01

have a problem. You

40:04

have a problem, you know what I mean? When?

40:06

When? When? When? When I go certain places I don't want wrong

40:08

going on. I don't got no problem with this, that, and the other.

40:10

If it doesn't bother man, I usually don't even speak

40:12

about it, you know what I mean? And I think that we are

40:14

gonna need we need more jay z s and less

40:17

Little Wayne's. And by that, I mean like when

40:19

Little Wayne goes on that talk show about

40:21

back and said to that woman, he doesn't even know what

40:23

Black Lives Matter is. That's

40:26

wild to me, but we still lift

40:28

that up as like the thing. We're all like applauding

40:31

him as one of the best. And you know what, he is a great rapp right. I'm

40:33

not gonna try to discredit his talent. That's

40:35

not what I'm here to try to do. But I know that his

40:38

policies and politics are

40:40

affecting the black community in a really severe

40:42

way. Mean, while we have people like jay Z, who

40:46

it's releasing an entire album. If

40:48

you'll haven't listened to um Um

40:51

his last album, it

40:53

was all numbers. I'm hard with the MROR numbers.

40:55

Four uh four? What was it called

40:57

again for? Was it for forty?

41:00

For? Yeah, that's the one um

41:02

And when people are name the album numbers, I'm like,

41:04

this is hard to remember, y'all. Obviously,

41:07

jay Z did not need my help with UH with

41:10

UM four or forty four. Yeah, when

41:13

he um you know he talks about his queer

41:15

mom in that he UM received

41:17

a glad award. Obviously his wife is a

41:20

big advocate for queer people. UM.

41:23

And this is someone who has the talent, the

41:25

skill, um and the respect

41:27

in the black community. We need more people like that

41:30

coming forward saying black trans lives

41:32

matter. So if you know litt

41:34

Wayne or we need more people like Dwayne Wade

41:37

who has a trans dater it comes forward and says

41:39

black trans lives matter. I

41:41

actually actually think that that's gonna be one of those key

41:43

turning points. I think with Dwyane

41:45

Wade and Gabrielle Union, their

41:48

loving, their embrace of

41:50

their daughter, I think it's gonna make a difference. Do you know

41:52

how many there are so many people a year

41:55

who are thrown out of their homes for

41:57

telling their parents who they truly are. And some of them are

41:59

so afraid they just leave. They

42:02

never even tell their parents they are. They just get up

42:04

and leave. They're so afraid. What's

42:06

gonna happen if they live authentically,

42:09

if they live is their true selves? You

42:11

know who? I think it's one of the most thoughtful people I've ever heard

42:14

talk just in general about being

42:17

your truest self and what that may allow you to

42:19

do is RuPaul. And so when you were

42:21

telling me that you were sitting with

42:23

RuPaul and having that one on one conversation,

42:25

part of me thought back, Uh. Two,

42:28

I saw him speak. He came and spoke at a

42:30

festival I put together, and uh

42:33

and it was interesting to me to

42:35

see the wide variety of people

42:37

who were clearly transfixed with what he

42:40

had to say, and people who didn't think they

42:42

were coming to hear RuPaul that day, who

42:44

clearly that ended up being the highlight

42:47

of of that time.

42:50

And so I think I will never forget. I'll

42:52

never forget that, like I will never be able

42:54

to um say enough

42:57

or do enough. Thank you to the people like RuPaul,

42:59

like Sylvester Ellen, Degenerous,

43:02

um, these these trailblazers

43:05

who have made it okay for people like me to be

43:07

myself. The reason why I feel comfortable

43:09

in myself, I know that I've seen people doing

43:12

it and and and not just being one

43:14

of the reasons start doing drag because I saw this dragon named

43:16

bbs a Harvard a she one Season one a drag race.

43:18

Remember watching on TV and seeing a reflection

43:21

of myself, seeing someone shining

43:24

back at me who looked like me, who kind

43:26

of talked like me, although she has an African

43:28

accent, but like a feminine queer

43:32

assigned male at birth person who

43:35

is not just not just being

43:37

told that you're great despite the

43:39

things that make you you, but because

43:42

of the things that make you. You imagine

43:44

that when I do a show called We're Here on

43:47

HBO and one of the people on the show,

43:49

her name is Amilia, and she said, you know everything,

43:52

I never forget this. This is always shakes when

43:54

I think about She goes, everything about me has

43:56

been used against me at one

43:59

point in my life. She is a plus

44:02

size, non binary

44:04

queer person who's bald and

44:07

imaginative. Everything about your existence

44:10

was used negatively

44:13

against you. But then you find a community

44:16

that tells you that actually all

44:18

of those things are what makes

44:21

you amazing. Actually

44:23

the fact that you're so. You know, when you're out

44:25

in the world and you're in the NORMI

44:28

world and someone calls you a fat but

44:31

then you go back over here and they're like, work,

44:33

big work, you better go miss

44:35

thing you do it, you over there to say

44:37

your face looks grumpy. You mean, but over here

44:40

in this world, they're saying you are serving face, you

44:42

are mugging for the gods. You are giving their

44:44

children everything we want. Why would you not want

44:46

to be in that? You know? And

44:48

and and it's how we are in the black community, you

44:51

know. When growing I will never forget

44:53

when I was growing up, I want to work at six Flags

44:55

over Georgia, and they had at the time, I had

44:57

dread laws, and it had his policy that said, I

45:00

mean I have these aren't my real

45:02

dreads. I don't actually have any

45:05

hair hair um involved

45:07

nowadays, but at the time I had long, beautiful

45:09

dreadlocks, and six Flags released a policies

45:12

said you cannot work at six like if you have dreadlocks.

45:14

Now that is clearly targeted at black

45:17

people. They said, you can't have corn rows, afros

45:19

or dreadlocks. Carlos,

45:22

who is that targeted at? If not? But

45:25

then I found it, and then I found the world

45:27

of people who said that I was actually

45:29

wonderful for all the things that contributed

45:33

to my black visage.

45:36

And then they weren't unprofessional, that

45:38

they weren't ratchet, that they

45:40

weren't ghetto. They were actually

45:42

amazing. You know, I'm

46:01

gonna take you to some other stuff before we go, because

46:04

I want to have a conversation about polyamory.

46:07

HM, say more, I

46:09

understand that you're you're in a in

46:12

a loving polyamorous relationship. Is that right?

46:14

Yeah? So I have two partners. I have a partner, Jacob

46:16

Ritz, who I met in the Bay Area, um,

46:19

maybe three years ago. Yeah. And

46:22

where Jacob's from Jacob is

46:24

Okay, Jacob's from all over North Carolina, but mostly

46:27

the mostly Philly, most of the Philly area.

46:29

Jacob went to boarding school and stuff. And then

46:31

I have my partner Ezra, who

46:34

um I met um in Los

46:36

Angeles, California. And you

46:38

met them at the same time, you met them

46:40

the same place. No. I met Jacob

46:43

on Grinder, which is which is like, um,

46:45

you know grind. Everyone knows grinding now, Um,

46:48

I met Jacob and grinder and I met Ezra on Instagram.

46:51

Um, and about a year and a half apart

46:53

from each other. So as we're dating for about a year and a half

46:55

now. Jacob and I've been dating for about three years.

46:58

And also my partner, Ezra has

47:00

a girlfriend named Rosalind Montoya.

47:03

Um, so he has another

47:05

partner as well, So it's is an intricate

47:07

web of love. And I, you know, I grew

47:10

up believing that love only

47:12

looks like um one

47:15

thing. I grew up seeing that love

47:17

was like one man, one woman, end

47:19

of story. And then it's some weird

47:21

cases a man and a man, end

47:24

of story. But then I got

47:26

older and I realized that that's

47:29

not uh, that's

47:31

not true for me. My my

47:33

ability to love more than one person is very

47:35

real. And a lot of people like, well, what about jealousy?

47:38

How do I get jealous? Whoever

47:40

said I don't get jealous? Who who told

47:42

you that? And were like, you know, I have

47:45

a lot of the emotions that a that a human

47:47

being would have. So if you so,

47:49

if you experienced jealousy, then I probably experience.

47:51

I get jealous with my friends. I get

47:53

jealous when my best friend hangs out with my other best friend

47:55

and I wasn't invited. So of course sometimes I get

47:58

jealous in life. But it's about you

48:00

know, being open and honest with each other and and and and

48:03

you know, talking to each other. Honestly, what

48:05

it surprised you the most? Have you been

48:07

in polyamorous relationships before. Now

48:10

these are actually my first two partners. Like,

48:13

I mean, I had a girlfriend in high school, so that's

48:15

not fair to Keisha. So if

48:17

he'sha is watching, I do acknowledge

48:20

that we dated. But as an adult, this

48:22

is my Jacob and Ezra and my first

48:24

two partners in adulthood. And so,

48:27

so what it surprised you the most about

48:29

being in a polyamorous relationship. What's

48:31

what caught you off guard? What did you not see coming?

48:34

Um? That I could love

48:36

them both magnificently, And I

48:39

thought that maybe one

48:42

person would diminish love for another person,

48:44

But it really doesn't. It really doesn't work that

48:46

way. Like I really truly

48:49

love them both and think about wanting to my life. I

48:51

will say that I've maybe been shocked that, um,

48:54

some emotions come up that you aren't prepared

48:56

for. But isn't that dating in general? Aren't

48:59

aren't isn't that relationships in general? You

49:01

know? So the thing is like, so if if

49:04

me and Ezra are having like a lot

49:06

of you know, marital problems or

49:08

relationship things, and then we're good,

49:11

and then a week later, man Jacob

49:13

were having a thing. So it is a

49:16

lot of work, but the

49:19

juice is worth the squeeze. I

49:23

like that. So where does everybody

49:25

live? Okay? So I live with

49:28

both Jacob and Ezra. Ezra

49:30

and I live in Hollywood. Jacob and I live in West

49:32

Hollywood. So right now I am in my

49:34

Hollywood apartment with Ezra, who

49:36

is on the other side of this wall, probably watching

49:39

Golden Girls on this

49:41

laptop. And um, and I literally

49:43

I literally just go back and forth, literally night

49:46

by night by night. And then and then

49:48

what does does Jacob have an additional

49:50

partner or no? No, Jacob just has

49:53

me, just me, just

49:55

lucky, I guess, Um, and when

49:58

when I when I met Ezra, I was as

50:00

was only partner for a while, and

50:02

then he just started dating about a month ago. He started

50:05

dating a nice young lady about

50:07

a month ago. And did he ask you permission?

50:10

Did you guys talk about it up front out of that work?

50:12

Well, and certainly not permission.

50:14

And we do not have any dominion of each other's lives.

50:16

We do not tell each other what to do. He does keep

50:19

me updated with what's going on in his life, which feels

50:21

nice as a partner. Um, but I

50:23

don't have a say in who he's allowed

50:25

to date. Now, there are some people

50:27

in polyamorous situations who have dynamics

50:30

like that, but that's not our dynamic. Interesting

50:33

because I think the conversation around polyamory,

50:36

I feel like it is becoming a more

50:38

mainstream conversation, Lisa feels like

50:40

to me over the last couple of years. Yeah,

50:43

this is this is the future liberals one, this

50:46

is what conservatives were afraid of. A

50:48

bunch of non binary, transgender

50:51

lesbians are gonna date your

50:53

daughters. Wait,

50:56

now, you must have conservative

50:58

friends, having grown up in Alabama

51:01

and Georgia and Mississippi. So

51:03

what kind of conversations do you have with your conservative

51:05

friends? Well? A few, I mean I have a few,

51:07

like my old landlord, I still talked to her every

51:09

once a while on Facebook. And a couple of my

51:12

old roommates who were almost all in the military.

51:15

Actually all my older mans are both in the military

51:17

now. Actually, well to my older mains are in prison.

51:19

That's another story. I had two roomates who robbed the bank when

51:22

I was in college. But that's a whole that's

51:24

that we will come back. Carlos, Were

51:27

you involved in that? I was not? How

51:29

dare you I was? Not involved in any of

51:32

the high stick or the bank robbing. But I

51:34

had two roommates who just if you want to look up Morgan

51:37

Chigawa and Malik Lay and no one listening.

51:39

They robbed a bank in Alabama anyway. But

51:42

my old roommates him and um Shine

51:44

are both in the military and everyone's where

51:46

we chat, and um they're probably

51:48

they're probably relatively liberal conservatives,

51:51

you know what I mean. Um, they're

51:53

not like, they're not insurrectionist, they're

51:56

not huing on. I don't have any

51:58

huan on people in my life. I mean,

52:00

I do have a cousin who's an anti back sir, but

52:02

that's that's a

52:04

whole different thing. No, No, Now,

52:07

Bob, would you run for office one day? You

52:09

know? My initial thought is

52:11

no, but maybe maybe down

52:14

the line, when I've had enough, I will.

52:16

Um, But I I don't. I see myself

52:18

as more of a community builder

52:21

than a community leader. You know.

52:24

Growing up as a kid, one of my goals was to be

52:27

like I would watch this is so

52:30

like nerdy. I would like watch

52:32

and listen to m l K speeches

52:34

and be like that's what I want. I

52:37

want to like get in front of people and tell them that they are deserving

52:40

of rights. That's what I want. So

52:42

so fast forward for me ten years

52:44

from now, where do you think you will be?

52:46

None of us really know, but if you had

52:49

to guess, where do you think you will be? So be

52:51

for you four years old? Um,

52:54

maybe I'll have a kid. I'm not sure

52:56

yet. I feel a little long in the tooth to be

52:58

having kids only because my mom, mean, when she was in early

53:00

twenties, and I'm like, I don't want to be like a seven

53:03

year old parent. But that's beside

53:05

the point. Um. I

53:07

definitely um hope to be in

53:10

a position to offer an opportunity

53:13

to more black queer artists,

53:15

performers, uh, community

53:17

builders, thinkers. That's why me

53:19

and my friend man started in the Black Queer Town

53:21

Hall, which happened last year and we're happing in this

53:24

summer. It is just a caucus

53:27

of black queer thinkers, musicians,

53:29

artists, um getting together

53:32

and sharing their experience, and I honestly

53:34

hope to be able to offer that to more people like

53:36

myself. That sounds really

53:39

interesting and it sounds like that would be interesting

53:41

not just in the US but around the globe. Yeah,

53:44

you you you you want to invest know

53:47

what. That's all. That's the right question. That's

53:49

the right question, Bob. We'll talk afterwards.

53:51

That's the right quay. I Actually, I really do think when

53:54

I hear you say that that like has the ring

53:56

of something that would be valuable

53:58

and that people would look for word too and that

54:01

and that really fresh ideas would come

54:03

out of it. And to your point about not feeling limited

54:06

by what other people say are certain

54:08

norms, but thinking broadly about what

54:11

can be and should be. That that

54:13

strikes me as something to be really very powerful. That's

54:16

why I think so much about UM. You know Israe

54:18

has her production coming

54:20

that she just recently launched UM,

54:23

which is like all of her like like

54:25

a ray is on, is on our way to some Shonda

54:28

Rhimes type going on, you know what

54:30

I mean, which is absolutely amazing. It's about uplifting

54:32

UM, uplifting black voices and and I

54:35

want to do my part, and

54:37

especially for black queer voices, because our stories

54:39

are so often reduced

54:42

to if

54:44

it's a story about a trans person, it's about

54:46

them being beat up or being um

54:49

you know, thrown out, and we're not talking

54:51

about the people who are in

54:54

the black queer space who are genuinely

54:57

and truly changing the

54:59

world, like the whole world around

55:01

us, um, and I want people

55:04

to know how valuable that heritage is. Where's

55:06

the strongest black trans community you've

55:08

ever come across? New York City? New

55:11

York City, hands down New York City?

55:14

And what is what is the center of it? Is

55:16

there a particular neighborhood or is there

55:18

a special touchstone that that plays

55:20

the outsize role in the in

55:23

the community. Well, there used to be a really

55:25

fierce, amazing nightclub that is

55:27

no longer around called Escalitas.

55:30

Escalators was where a lot of black

55:32

trans people of color would go and um

55:35

and be seen and be celebrated and be acknowledged

55:39

and giving their flowers while we're still here on this on

55:41

the same earthly plane together. Um.

55:44

And you also, of course have some amazing

55:47

icons from the nightlife scene outside

55:49

of just Escualitas, people like Peppermint.

55:51

Um. Peppermint is the first openly

55:54

trans person to ever originate a role

55:56

a major role in a Broadway show.

55:58

And I'm so honored and happy to be wouna say that she's

56:00

also one of my dear friends. You have Lena Bradford,

56:03

who is an amazing DJ and television producer

56:05

and host of the Dollhouse. I'm

56:08

also based out of New York

56:10

City. Um, they're just tons

56:12

and tons of and then the New York City night life scene

56:15

is one of the warmest places I've ever found

56:18

outside of my you know, literal family.

56:20

All Right, I'm gonna do something called rapid

56:22

Fire with you for a moment. I want to hit you with a

56:24

half dozen different questions. I want to get

56:26

your quick response. Um, your

56:29

favorite book Color Purple. Oh,

56:31

I didn't expect that, all right, your favorite movie

56:34

the Color Purple. Give

56:37

me the writer up, give me the writer up. The

56:39

Lion King, Lion King? Okay? And your

56:41

favorite character in The Lion King is oh

56:44

Rafiki for sure? Okay.

56:46

Um, if you could have dinner with anyone

56:49

dead or alive, who would you love to have dinner

56:51

with? Joan of Arc or

56:53

Kunta Kinte. I've always want

56:55

to actually scratched both those. Harriet Tubman,

56:58

Harriet Tubman, Harriet Huffman.

57:00

There is no one on this planet I

57:03

want to talk to more than Harry.

57:05

She is, I know, rapid Fire. She's the first black

57:07

superhero. She is, she

57:10

was invincible, She lived to be almost

57:12

a hundred. She was less than

57:15

she was about five feet tall. She

57:17

was severely handicapped from a brain

57:20

injury. She had narcolepsi.

57:22

She couldn't read or write, but

57:25

she is probably the most prolific

57:27

American of all time. That's

57:30

a money shot, Bob, That's

57:32

a money shot. That's the best answer I've had

57:35

on the entire show, actually all of

57:37

it. Joan of Arc to,

57:39

uh, who did you give me? You gave me? Joan of Arc

57:42

to, who did you give me? Who

57:44

do? I can't remember? Who did? I say? Jana even

57:47

said, but

57:49

I love I love that you did. I I

57:51

want I'm intrigued by you

57:54

know. I remember growing up you would hear

57:56

Kunta Kente as a pun, as

57:58

a joke. Uh um. But

58:01

then I remember looking up who coo he can say it was

58:03

and being like, oh my god, what an interesting you

58:06

know? But yeah, defin harridtub and hands

58:08

down Harrid Tubman, like, can you think

58:10

of anyone? I mean, this woman while

58:13

being handicapped, while being a slave, while not being able

58:15

to read and write, making almost

58:17

a dozen trips back and forth, and at one

58:19

point after they signed the Future Slave Act,

58:22

she couldn't stop in Pennsylvania. She

58:24

started going all the way to Canada. I've

58:27

had if if if I call

58:29

the uber and it stops down the block,

58:31

I get annoyed. Harriet

58:34

Tubman is walking to Canada and

58:37

she's already free. Didn't have to do

58:39

it. That's wild. That is that

58:41

is that is that is that's a real courage. Um.

58:45

Most interesting thing you've learned about love?

58:48

Um? That Um, it's not how it looks

58:50

on TV. It's not always how it looks on TV. Interesting,

58:53

Um, most interesting thing you've

58:55

ever learned about? How to dream fearlessly

58:58

and bring those dreams alive. It's okay

59:01

to say what you want. That

59:04

that really like. I remember moving to York,

59:06

to New York, to New York City and being afraid

59:08

to say that I wanted to be on Broadway because

59:11

what if I say that a lot and I don't make it. What

59:14

if I say it out loud and I don't

59:16

make it, then I look crazy? You know,

59:18

if I become a drag queen, I would be afraid to say I want

59:20

to be on Paul's Drag Race because what if I don't make

59:22

it? And then everyone's like, what you say? You

59:25

want to be on drag Race, and now what you're gonna do. It's

59:27

okay. It's okay to to

59:30

dream big into one things that some people

59:32

might call basic. All right, what's the role

59:34

you would most love to play on television,

59:36

the movies anywhere. I've always wanted

59:39

to play King Herod in Jesus Christ

59:41

Superstar. Um. It's a really

59:43

short rule. I don't know how much of but it's

59:45

like it's a role that's only in for two scenes.

59:48

He's in, sings a song, and then he leaves.

59:50

I've always wanted to play that role, or

59:52

maybe the cat in the Hat and Susical the musical

59:55

I'm so gay. Um, these

59:57

are the gayest answers in the universe.

1:00:00

Um. I want to play the rainbow.

1:00:03

I just want to be the rainbow bursting out

1:00:05

of the clown. Henny, all

1:00:08

right? Other than yourself, who

1:00:10

are two of your favorite comedians? Chris

1:00:13

rock in Wonder Sides are brilliant?

1:00:16

Oh interesting? So you did not put your friend

1:00:18

Dave Chappelle in there, and you didn't put

1:00:20

any of the old heads in there, like Richard

1:00:23

pryor or any of those kind of people. Well,

1:00:25

I mean, I guess depending on how old you are. Chris Rock

1:00:27

may Or may not be an old an old head

1:00:30

um, but I

1:00:32

you know, let me sink to my Dave Chapelle.

1:00:35

I genuinely like Dave Chappelle. I think he's a

1:00:37

great comedian. Dave Chappelle

1:00:39

is, in my opinion, oftentimes contributing

1:00:42

to the notion that trans

1:00:44

people are not valid. It

1:00:47

seems wild to me. Someone who understands

1:00:50

so much about what it means to be punched

1:00:52

down on, and he will not stop

1:00:54

making fun of trans women at practically

1:00:57

every opportunity he has. It's

1:01:00

really weird. It's really weird.

1:01:03

Why do you I mean, no one can know unless

1:01:05

you're a particularly good friend of his. But

1:01:08

but but why do you think that is? Why

1:01:10

do you why do you think he's doing it? Do you have any any I

1:01:12

mean, I'm just gonna take I'm just gonna take him at face

1:01:15

value. And he's saying that it's just because he thinks

1:01:17

that trans people are funny, which

1:01:19

is in and of itself incredibly

1:01:21

offensive. Like that's what he said on this thing.

1:01:24

I just can't stop making fun of them because they're just because

1:01:26

they're just so funny. And it's not a

1:01:28

popular. Uh, it's not a popular

1:01:31

place in the black community to say

1:01:33

that Dave Chappelle is is

1:01:35

you know, messy and problematic,

1:01:37

but I mean if the shoe

1:01:40

fits, but he is.

1:01:42

But I genuinely do think that Dave Chapelle is a brilliant

1:01:44

comedian. He's actually really smart and he's

1:01:46

really funny. But sometimes he uses

1:01:49

like false equivalences to make

1:01:51

a point. You know what I mean, Bob, I think

1:01:53

that's gonna become a new segment on my show, Messy

1:01:56

and Problematic. I like that messy

1:01:58

problematic. That's that talk about

1:02:00

them back, you know what you're talking about? Those T shirts

1:02:02

you were talking about where he said what

1:02:05

I mean best, your problematic would

1:02:07

be a good work. Um. Talk to me a little bit about

1:02:09

travel. Where's the most beautiful place you've

1:02:12

ever been? A rio in Brazil?

1:02:14

Rio de Janeiro so beautiful.

1:02:16

Did you go for a carnival or did you go just to enjoy?

1:02:19

I was it was there. I was there for work, so I wasn't there

1:02:21

during cornervll. I just happened to be there during work. And

1:02:23

I usually hate beaches. First of

1:02:25

all, everyone in Brazil is beautiful,

1:02:28

like sexy. I know, what I mean, just like

1:02:31

wow, like everyone is

1:02:33

sexy from like

1:02:35

the nine year olds, like it

1:02:38

is wild. These are just the

1:02:40

most gorgeous people I've ever

1:02:42

seen in my life. And everything

1:02:45

is just I really had And also

1:02:48

I love admiration. And they really treated

1:02:50

me there like that. You would have thought I was I was

1:02:52

working Beyonce the way

1:02:54

they treated me in in in Rio. They

1:02:57

gave you the Beyonce al Right, where where else

1:02:59

have you gone that you've loved? Where else has been

1:03:01

been a beautiful trip or beautiful spot, beautiful

1:03:04

vacation. Well, I thoroughly enjoy

1:03:06

um. Uh I that

1:03:09

sounds this is like not a popular I

1:03:12

love the bay Area. I've always loved the Bay Area.

1:03:15

And I know it's not exotic, but I've always

1:03:17

loved the bay Area. I've always loved Portland,

1:03:20

Oregon. UM. I love

1:03:23

Austin, Texas, I love London,

1:03:26

I love um and I

1:03:29

still get to travel to any countries in

1:03:31

Africa, which I really really want to. Um.

1:03:34

I you know, before I'm a hundred

1:03:36

um, that's one of my I

1:03:41

love it before you're forty four, Okay, yeah

1:03:44

exactly, I'm trying to make it. So, now,

1:03:47

how do you do it when you go, do you go fancy?

1:03:50

Are you Airbnb? Or you a fancy

1:03:52

Airbnb, a light Airbnb? What

1:03:54

do you do well? Typically speaking, I don't

1:03:56

travel unless i'm working, so usually

1:03:58

I'm not choosing my own accommodations.

1:04:01

Usually whoever has brought me there for work will put people

1:04:03

in a hotel, and I usually stay in like a nice hotel.

1:04:05

I'm not staying at the Ritz Carlton. But

1:04:08

I'm also you know, not staying at uh at

1:04:10

Bucky's Roach Motel Lodge, you know

1:04:12

what I mean. So I'll stay like

1:04:15

like like a decent four or five star hotel.

1:04:18

Um. But I'm not in town for very long. I'm usually

1:04:20

in and out and and and

1:04:22

interesting. So you never treat yourself. You don't

1:04:24

allow yourself to kind of linger and enjoy

1:04:27

some of these places I've not been. I've been

1:04:29

working so much, and I've really been I've

1:04:31

always been very career focused. Luckily, when I went to Rio

1:04:33

and I went to Australia because a lot

1:04:35

of times, especially on Australia, the show that

1:04:37

the promoter I work with, the shows are on the weekends, so

1:04:41

you would be there. It takes over

1:04:43

a day to get to Australia. From New York City,

1:04:46

it's thirty one hours of flight just

1:04:48

to get to Perth, Australia,

1:04:50

you know what I mean. So when you get

1:04:53

there, you have a few days to reset and

1:04:55

then you do shows only the

1:04:57

weekend, so you have like a whole week in the town

1:05:00

down and then you do the weekend and

1:05:02

you have another week and you have another weekend. Um.

1:05:04

And the same with Rio. I'm the same with our with Brazil.

1:05:07

I try with Porto Alega, Rio

1:05:09

de Gennaro, Brazilia, and

1:05:12

a few have the cities. Okay, okay,

1:05:14

um Bob blessed up? What would surprise

1:05:17

people who love you? Think they

1:05:19

know you? But what would still surprise

1:05:21

them to learn about you? I'm such

1:05:23

an open book. I don't know what would

1:05:25

surprised people. I mean, I know people who are still surprised

1:05:28

that I'm that I'm in a polyamorous relationship,

1:05:31

or that I identify as pan sexual, which

1:05:33

means I am not just attracted

1:05:35

to men. I have a

1:05:37

varying degree of attraction UM

1:05:40

to people of multiple different gender expressions.

1:05:42

Interesting. Okay, all right, Hey, um

1:05:45

Bob, I like the way you think. Um,

1:05:49

I really like who you are please

1:05:51

tell your mother she did a great job and

1:05:54

we'll do and she'll

1:05:56

be very happy to hear that. Yeah, and you and

1:05:58

you have to come back and we do something special

1:06:01

during the summers when things are healthy. We do

1:06:03

something called Azzi Fest, which is a very

1:06:05

fun festival. They call it ted meets Coachella

1:06:08

and it's uh speakers, we have musicians,

1:06:10

we have comedians, we have chefs, we have all

1:06:13

sorts of things, and I really want you if

1:06:15

you have time to come to one of those. I'll make

1:06:17

sure we reach out and uh and it would

1:06:19

be nice to have you there. I would love that. As

1:06:21

in the Bay Area, so we do it in multiple

1:06:23

areas. So we originally we were doing it in New York

1:06:26

and Central Park. Next year we'll

1:06:28

do it in Golden Gate as well. But this

1:06:30

um October we're gonna take it down to Miami.

1:06:33

Oh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1:06:35

listen. I would love to participate. I'm always down

1:06:37

to have a good time. Um.

1:06:41

And you know, I'm gonna tell you one anyone who if anyone

1:06:43

he's watching, feel free to go check us out

1:06:46

over my my YouTube page at BOPA Drag

1:06:48

Queen And of course coming back, we have season

1:06:50

two of We're Here, which

1:06:53

is a great HBO real life series darring me,

1:06:55

Angela and Eurik O'Hara, which

1:06:57

I'm we were nominated for an Emmy last year, so

1:07:00

I'm really really proud of the work that we're doing over there. So thank

1:07:02

you so much for having me. Carlos my plas. How

1:07:04

did you? How did you come up with the name Bob the drag

1:07:07

Queen? How did you decide on that? The true

1:07:09

story, I'll tell you the real story. So my original drag

1:07:11

name was actually Kitten with a whip, based on the

1:07:13

Old and Margaret movie. Um. But no

1:07:15

one ever people call me Kate, they call me cat,

1:07:18

they call me kitty, And I was like, it's

1:07:20

not my name. I was like, what can I pick that no one will

1:07:22

misspronounce? Um? And one

1:07:24

day I was hanging out with this drunk guy karaoke

1:07:28

and he was like, give it off for your host. Kate.

1:07:32

Isn't Kate amazing? And

1:07:34

I was like Kate because yeah, because that's the drag name.

1:07:36

I'm Kate hey when I'm Kate the drag

1:07:38

Queen. And then I kept making it and then I kept joking

1:07:41

like, don't forget me. I'm Kim Kim the Drag

1:07:43

Queen, and by the end of the night, I was like, please

1:07:45

don't forget your host Bob, Bob the Drag

1:07:47

Queen, and I was like, that's actually really funny.

1:07:49

I think I want to give that a shot. And I told

1:07:51

my friends and they were all like, that's the worst name. Don't

1:07:54

ever do it. And I said, now I have

1:07:56

to. That's

1:08:00

the true Bob. I love that story.

1:08:03

Um, definitely come back to

1:08:05

the show we got. We're gonna have you back a lot, and

1:08:07

good luck on the HBO show. We're all gonna

1:08:09

be watching and cheering and routed and we definitely

1:08:12

will come to your YouTube page as well,

1:08:14

and we'll see you at Azzy FA. Thank you

1:08:16

so much, Thank you, thank

1:08:29

you for listening to this episode of The Carlos

1:08:31

Batson Show podcast. If you enjoyed this

1:08:33

episode, please leave us a review where every

1:08:36

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