0:00

Welcome to changelog and

0:03

friends, a weekly talk

0:05

show about Jamie Tana's

0:07

website. Thank

0:21

you to our partners at

0:24

fly.io, the home of changelog.com.

0:27

It's your app and you're your users all around

0:29

the world. Find out how

0:31

at fly.io. Okay,

0:33

let's talk. We

0:37

are here with Jamie Tana, longtime

0:40

listener, community member, blogger. I've

0:42

been publishing your stuff

0:45

in changelog news over the years, it seems like

0:47

at this point. And one

0:49

of our voice mailers for last year's

0:51

state of the log, Jamie, welcome to

0:53

changelog and friends. Thank you.

0:56

Not that I'm saying he's not a friend Jared, but I

0:58

was thinking maybe he wasn't really a friend. It's

1:00

more like this is changelog and friendly. I

1:02

don't know. Because he'll become a friend during

1:04

the show potentially, right? Like I was thinking about that on the

1:06

way here. What do you think about that? I feel like he's been

1:10

like a community member, hanging out in

1:12

the slack. We haven't held hands yet

1:14

though. So you know, well, he lives across the

1:16

pond. It's not easy. You haven't with

1:18

Gerhard for ages. That's true. It

1:21

took us a long time to shake his hand and give him a hug.

1:24

So true. But change log and friendlies, you

1:26

know, it's got a ring to it. Maybe we could have a,

1:28

a sub show. I guess you're looking for

1:31

a new subtitle. Maybe it's turning friendlies

1:33

into friends. There you go. Oh, I like

1:35

that. That's actually not that bad. Well, I

1:37

would like to hear Jamie is how it

1:39

feels to get your very own break master

1:41

cylinder remix. And because you're, you

1:43

are a recipient of a remix. I've never got

1:45

one for myself, but I

1:47

feel good. Doesn't it? How did I feel

1:49

hearing your voice all remixed? It was very cool. I

1:51

mean, the fact that for the second year running, I

1:54

ended up submitting my voice note like state

1:56

of the log was just impressive given

1:59

nothing. It's like a month

2:01

before the deadline when is the deadline

2:03

and I write an update So

2:06

yeah, I'm just still surprised that you managed to

2:08

squeeze me in that was very cool I'm

2:10

gonna get my own what remix was pretty

2:13

cool. I haven't yet said it as a ringtone, but maybe

2:16

that's the next step He should

2:18

is Jamie's the sweet robot

2:20

dance makeup music. That's Jamie's right. I

2:22

was the other Jamie. That's Jamie, Kurno

2:24

Okay, Jamie's was the very last one

2:26

cuz he submitted late remind me what

2:28

it says We'll see if we can

2:30

play it you want the remix or the message

2:33

the remix I

2:35

am My podcast update I'd absolutely

2:37

say that I've often prioritized change

2:39

log over cooking over my

2:41

life I don't have time to

2:43

walk the dog this year so

2:46

it is a lot I've

2:48

listened to change log for five days

2:50

at a time in a room just

2:53

laughing having a great time and Really

2:58

looking forward to what's happening over

3:00

next year Thank

3:06

You Jamie that was amazing so I

3:09

bet your dogs pretty sad I know my

3:11

dog like absolutely needs the

3:13

Adam tank filled up every single day the

3:16

dog begs me to go to work with me because you know

3:18

for now I go to a separate office and My

3:21

dog could not not be walked and

3:24

then at the same time I need to cook and

3:26

I've never sat in a room for five days straight laughing at

3:28

cheese on podcast So

3:31

you've got me beat but I appreciate

3:33

that. I'm just dedicated Yeah,

3:35

not okay. I take it back

3:37

your friend now There we go.

3:39

Just like that. We already did it We haven't even gotten

3:41

into the show yet and we've already turned a friendly into

3:44

a friend. So too easy I

3:46

was digging into my site

3:49

history and I found at least the first recorded

3:52

time I Tracked a

3:55

listen to change log was 2016. So I've

3:57

been a lot of a good chunk

3:59

of time So you track your

4:01

listens? I do. So it's

4:04

something I started two years

4:06

ago was starting to track

4:09

like every time I listen to a podcast, I'll

4:12

publish a listen to my website.

4:15

And as part of that, I then have a history

4:17

of all the things I've listened to. But

4:19

because I was only doing that from like that

4:21

point of time, I also had like a

4:23

load of history. So I found a

4:26

way to take podcast, add it SQLite

4:28

database, reverse engineer some of the

4:30

data out of that and backfill

4:32

that to my site as well. In

4:35

fact, I'm just now trying to charge up some of my

4:37

old phones to see if they've got

4:40

any history on them. I can go further

4:42

back. I can also backfill. Yeah. Interesting. That's

4:44

dedication. I love it, but I also wonder

4:46

why. Like what drives you to want

4:48

to do that even so much so that you'll go

4:50

into the history and like dig it out of a

4:52

database. Why? In 2018, I

4:56

found out about the Indie Web Community. The

4:59

community is all around like owning your data, not

5:02

relying on other platforms. So

5:04

some of it is like Indie Web is a thing

5:06

is quite cool. But it's

5:08

also just like interesting for me to have that

5:10

data. So coming up to today,

5:12

I was able to easily go

5:14

back and say the first time I definitely

5:17

know I listened to a Change. I listened to a new podcast. It

5:20

was the 27th of August and it

5:22

was request for commits number four. And

5:25

that was actually the first podcast of the change log

5:27

I listened to. It's

5:29

also interesting because that gets

5:31

syndicated to the Fedverse. So

5:34

if people are interested, they can see the sorts

5:36

of things that I'm listening to. They

5:39

can find out about new podcasts as I've listened

5:41

to them and stuff like that,

5:43

which I find quite cool as just a

5:46

passive way of sharing it. Because

5:48

I have all that data or I can go in and I

5:50

can work out like, actually, in the

5:52

last year, I have listened to five days

5:54

worth of change log. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

5:58

And you can make sweet robot dance make out music.

6:00

But was it with that information, you know, it's amazing.

6:03

So okay, that is cool. I admit

6:05

it and that makes sense

6:07

the dedication the syndication so

6:10

indie web this is the idea of own your

6:12

own data published through your own website and Syndicate

6:15

elsewhere or like blast out. I guess there's a

6:18

couple different ways of doing it, but that seems

6:20

to be the main one. Yes So

6:23

there's a really good article Titled one year in

6:25

the indie web and this is the one that

6:28

I usually recommend people read because there's

6:30

a really good distinction There between

6:32

indie web with a capital I and

6:34

capital W Versus indie

6:36

web or lowercase or with a space between

6:39

indie and web So there's a lot of

6:41

people who think like indie web is I

6:43

need to do these particular things To

6:45

be part of the indie web whereas

6:47

like at its base

6:49

It's just you own a URL

6:52

and you publish content to it It

6:54

could be that URL is in

6:56

front of sub stack or medium could

6:58

be in front of WordPress calm or it could

7:01

be infrastructure that you are hosting in your

7:03

home lab and You've

7:05

got a load of stuff for that But

7:07

then as well as that it has

7:09

also morphed into things like owning

7:11

data across different services So

7:14

one of the things you references posse

7:17

publish on your own site syndicate

7:19

everywhere else or elsewhere and

7:21

so that is a lot of what I do I

7:24

Try to do which is in

7:26

the before times before Twitter's API

7:28

got taken down. I would reply

7:31

to people's tweets from my website

7:33

and So I would actually

7:35

go through a lot more pain and effort

7:37

to reply to someone's post which kind of

7:39

showed that I actually did A little

7:42

bit more because I would like

7:44

using so the Twitter app I would

7:47

share With an indie web app.

7:49

I would write my reply or then

7:51

hit send that would go to my website In

7:54

about 10 minutes. My site

7:56

would have rebuilt it was sent a

7:59

notification to an app called Bridgie. Bridgie

8:01

would then say, oh cool, this is a reply

8:03

to something in Twitter. So I'm now going

8:06

to send an API request to Twitter. I'm

8:08

going to syndicate that post. And that will then

8:10

appear on twitter.com. And in

8:12

all that time, like someone's probably not

8:15

bothered by my reply anyway. They're

8:18

going to lose an argument. By the time

8:20

your reply comes in, they're like, they moved

8:22

on. They don't know what you're talking about.

8:24

But I've also found it quite good because

8:26

it means that, A, those sorts of arguments

8:28

do calm down a little bit. Because, yeah,

8:31

I'm going to be taking hours to reply

8:33

to you. In fact, there was a

8:35

time where a couple of friends of mine messaged me and

8:37

was like, why have you just replied to

8:39

my tweet from six months ago?

8:43

I had a bug in my site software that

8:45

it wasn't actually sending those notifications called

8:47

web mentions for a while. So

8:50

suddenly I was replying to posts from six months

8:52

ago. Yeah,

8:55

not great. That's a good response though, that was a bug

8:57

in my software. This reminds me a

8:59

little bit, somewhat, so go

9:01

with me here, of back

9:03

when I was religious about updating the

9:05

song titles in iTunes, like back whenever

9:07

you used to manage your own MP3

9:09

library. And it's not exactly

9:11

a one to one, but I wonder if, you know,

9:14

this indie web, which I totally agree with, I love

9:16

the indie web, you know, like RSS feeds, like that's

9:18

what we do for a living. We ship MP3s via

9:20

RSS somehow to the world, and we

9:22

don't care about tracking. I mean, like we do to some

9:24

degree, but just enough to know that there's signal, not noise.

9:27

But it kind of reminds me of like, this world

9:30

where you pay attention to the details so

9:32

closely, but others may not. And so the

9:34

world doesn't really get populated with others like

9:36

you, who care so deeply about

9:38

all the layers. Do you feel like that?

9:41

Like, do you feel like that the indie

9:43

web has a possibility of

9:45

being more thriving because there's more folks who are

9:47

so purist like you are? And

9:49

am I wrong on my iTunes naming? Cause I mean,

9:51

I used to be crazy about it before they would

9:53

like do it for me. And now just

9:55

there's Spotify and other things. So yeah,

9:58

I do see it as a, of

10:00

a parallel. So I definitely wouldn't say I'm

10:02

one of the purists. There are

10:04

a number more in the community who will do a

10:07

lot more work, some of this stuff. And

10:09

for me, some of it is just like

10:11

the muscle memory of doing it. And

10:14

a lot better like, well, I've been doing it

10:16

for this long. So sunk cost fallacy, I have

10:18

to keep doing that for sure. Yeah, that's why

10:20

I'm about I've been doing this rename you for

10:22

so long, I am going to keep doing

10:24

it. So

10:27

for instance, like on websites like

10:29

lobster and Hacker News, and even

10:31

things like LinkedIn, I

10:33

don't have RC setup. So I

10:35

will just reply and it is kind of

10:37

nice to sometimes just reply and

10:39

it'd be done. But also I, I

10:42

find it's really useful to look

10:44

back on things. So for instance,

10:47

I have ADHD. And as part of

10:49

that, my memory isn't great. I blame

10:51

the ADHD for that. And

10:53

there's something in 2017, I started

10:56

doing school block implementation.

11:00

So it's blogging as a form of

11:02

documentation. And I very

11:04

recently started a personal website.

11:07

And as far as block implementation, it was a

11:09

case of I've just learned a thing, or I've

11:11

just done a thing. And it

11:13

was kind of awkward to like Google around for

11:15

and find a solution for. So I'm

11:18

going to be that person who writes a blog

11:20

post about it. And even if it

11:22

doesn't help anyone else, it will have

11:24

helped me because I would have written about it. And next

11:27

time I can go back to it. And

11:29

let partially or I,

11:31

I don't see this as like a really big

11:34

positive for me as someone with ADHD

11:36

is I now don't have

11:38

to try and remember how to do the

11:40

thing. I can now just vaguely

11:42

remember, have I written about the

11:44

thing? And then I can go and find that

11:46

in my website. Or I

11:48

don't even need to do that far,

11:50

I can just search through my site. And I

11:52

can say, I'm sure recently,

11:55

I was like talking to someone about this,

11:57

like how to do contract testing with open APC.

12:00

And I can search through my

12:02

site and then I can find a reply

12:04

that I posted somewhere. And I find that

12:06

really useful because part of

12:08

the blogmentation was a group by a

12:10

discussion with Scott Hanselman who

12:13

had a site called Keys Lift, which

12:16

counts down the number of

12:18

keystrokes you possibly have based

12:21

on how many keystrokes you have

12:23

left until you die of natural

12:25

causes. And in

12:27

this podcast he was talking about, I don't want

12:30

to waste those keystrokes on something that, like,

12:32

if he gets a dozen emails about how

12:34

do I do this thing, he wants to

12:36

be able to write that reply once and

12:38

then save the keystrokes and put

12:40

them towards something more useful. And

12:44

I very much internalize that of,

12:46

let me try and reference things

12:48

that I've already written. So,

12:50

in fact, you can see behind

12:52

me on the video, I have

12:54

my URL in the background because it's

12:57

very much like my personal brand. One

13:00

of my friends for my birthday,

13:02

the year before last, got

13:05

me a t-shirt which says, I have

13:07

a website, jvt.me, because I

13:09

would just talk about it so much

13:11

that it was like that sort of fun thing. And

13:14

another friend of mine from

13:16

a previous company, he built

13:19

a website called didyouknowjamiehasawebsite.co.uk because

13:22

it was just so common that I would talk about

13:24

my website and I would share links to things and,

13:26

like, a lot of it was coming from the place

13:28

of, I've written about this thing,

13:31

I have helped solve the thing, so here

13:33

you go. I have

13:35

a lot of thoughts about that. I

13:37

agree absolutely on the blogumentation front and

13:40

on the, as a completionist,

13:42

it appeals to me to have everything

13:44

always. But

13:46

some pushback. Well, actually I

13:49

pushed back on you about the same thing, Adam, at

13:51

that conference and we were talking about letting the

13:53

LLMs, like, know all of our thoughts, you know.

13:55

Just, like, write everything down. And

13:58

I think at that time I said, is there Is there

14:00

no value in that which is ephemeral and

14:02

I used to be like always

14:05

be recording always be publishing if it's not

14:07

forever It's not meaningful and I'm

14:09

starting to just like change my perspective on that Maybe

14:11

the kids are changing it for me because you know

14:13

the younger generations value ephemerality more

14:15

than we do because they've

14:17

grown up where like everything they do is Documented

14:20

and tracked by themselves or

14:22

by their parents or by the NSA or

14:24

whatever it is, right? And

14:27

I just feel like life has there's room

14:29

in life for both things Where

14:32

there are some conversations that

14:34

don't need to be documented. There are things that

14:36

a reply on LinkedIn

14:38

can just disappear into LinkedIn's

14:40

database somewhere and doesn't necessarily need to

14:42

be cataloged for you or for

14:45

your language model to remind

14:47

you of later and I

14:49

think the picking and choosing what I

14:51

should keep and what can just go away I

14:53

think is part of the process But I'm just

14:55

kind of like letting go a lot more than

14:57

I used to I was like does this

14:59

conversation really need to be Published or

15:02

was it just you know, I

15:05

ran into somebody in the street and we talked for

15:07

five minutes about our families And we moved on for

15:09

lives and that was just a really nice human thing

15:11

And maybe I said something there like I have a website

15:14

or I wrote about this But

15:16

beyond that I don't think

15:18

it needs to have artifacts to be valuable. Yeah

15:21

Well, I'm with Jamie on one front because I just

15:23

had a conversation with somebody for the first time We've

15:25

been looking forward to meeting each other. We met each

15:27

other at a mutual party for the Super

15:29

Bowl it's a very popular thing in the US and The

15:34

conversation was around nerdy things and I guess

15:36

this person is a lot like me where

15:38

they don't meet other people that can go

15:41

Deep nerd on Linux and Unix and BSD and

15:43

like ZF and whatever whatever the fun tinkering things

15:45

are There's not many home libraries out that you

15:48

can meet just like randomly in the street. So

15:50

that's the point and This

15:52

person is a professional in IT around

15:54

the Windows system primarily and

15:57

through conversation. We're talking about our set up

16:00

at home lab and whatnot. And I'm like, well, I

16:02

really don't do this, but I did

16:04

podcast with Matt Arons, one of the

16:06

co-creators of ZFS. He named dropped

16:08

on it. A couple years back and a lot of people liked it.

16:10

So you should go check it out if you're really wanting to go

16:12

deep on it. It helped me out a lot. Yeah. And

16:15

then like a minute or two later, we're talking about

16:17

something else. And like, well, I also talked to, so

16:19

you're the, by the way, I have a podcast. We

16:21

also talked to Alan Jude recently about free BSD and

16:24

all the BSDs and like the whole history there. And it was

16:26

really cool. So you probably enjoy that too. So

16:29

I kind of felt myself like

16:31

self-referencing things I've done, because we do document

16:33

a lot of things that are, we nerd out about, right?

16:35

That's just natural for us, but I get you on

16:38

that point. I think the point you're trying to make Jared is

16:40

that there is value in just, just simple

16:42

humanity, not journalistic

16:45

or must be recorded to then

16:47

share later aspects.

16:49

And that's, I don't

16:51

disagree with that. Right. I fully agree with

16:53

that. And having a filter, you know, I have lots of thoughts throughout

16:56

the day, as you guys do, I'm sure. Most

16:58

of them aren't worth keeping, you know? And

17:01

we make those choices. You know, Adam, I know you have lots of

17:03

ideas. Some of them you write down, other

17:05

ones you don't. Yeah. You

17:08

know? And knowing where to draw those lines is just

17:10

something I'm more, I guess, cognizant of than I have

17:12

been in the past, where I was more like, if

17:14

it doesn't live forever, it's not of any value. You

17:16

know, like you, you have, I didn't understand Snapchat. I'm

17:18

like, why would you want to take a picture that

17:20

just disappears? Like, it doesn't make any sense to me.

17:22

And now I get it. I guess I've just evolved

17:24

a little bit. I don't get that either. I

17:26

just can't get it. I

17:29

was never there, so I don't get it. Fair enough. But

17:31

yeah, we should get Adam a t-shirt. By the way, I

17:33

have a podcast, you know? It's in a little bit of

17:35

a rush. I have a website. Yeah, that

17:37

would be cool. And I don't like

17:39

doing that, though, necessarily. When I meet people, I'm not like,

17:42

in this case, it was proper. It wasn't like

17:44

boasting or self-promoting. It was like literally, hey, we're

17:46

talking about this, and

17:48

this happened. So if you are curious at all

17:50

about ZFS, this is a great

17:53

resource of many you should check out.

17:55

And it enlightened me. So you should check it out if

17:57

you are some client. It

17:59

wasn't like. Let me like slack in the

18:01

face of my podcast and I guess it is hard

18:03

to like drive that balance of my

18:05

you both have talked To loads of interesting people

18:08

you've got loads of interesting thoughts and people can

18:10

learn a lot from that But also

18:12

does it feel like I'm just pushing you

18:14

to consume all my content? Yeah

18:16

So I would say if Jared and I

18:19

were in quotes influencers Then

18:21

then when we did that it would be

18:23

disingenuous But because we are

18:25

definitely not in quotes influencers. We

18:27

might be influencers with a lowercase I Just

18:30

because we tend to think we're also in

18:32

the web with a lowercase I right precisely

18:36

So I think if we were the true version

18:38

of what people call influencers, then it would be

18:40

icky But because we're not we're

18:42

just normal human beings who just happened to have done

18:44

something so long and so consistent and

18:46

I suppose Over time so

18:48

well that more and more people have

18:50

joined our tribe All right That's like I read Seth

18:52

Godin's book way back in the day and like everything

18:55

we've done has been a version of what he prescribed

18:57

In that book is around tribes.

18:59

It's such a good book. I love stuff go and he's

19:02

got such amazing writing You know the

19:04

dip is amazing tribes is amazing. I think it's

19:06

called tribes If I

19:08

can recall correctly, but it was around that like hey

19:10

There's there's a subset of people out there who find

19:13

what I think is interesting and over time what I

19:15

find interesting Evolves and I bring more and more things

19:17

into there like my hat meat church, right? I love

19:19

I love barbecue. I geeked out with a

19:21

sponsor the other day. We were done with our conversation We

19:24

hung out for another 30 minutes talked about

19:26

Weber Kettles We talked about how we tweaked

19:28

our stuff and like the conversation was totally

19:30

over right, but we were just there now

19:33

talking about barbecue and our favorite recipes

19:35

and Methods etc and that was

19:38

what it was and that could have totally been

19:40

a podcast But it was just it

19:42

was just a conversation which was cool. Yeah, there

19:44

you go There's some value there. I

19:46

do like the indie web thing. I guess I mean

19:49

Jamie is any web I know you said there's

19:51

like a proper now and there's also like a lowercase version of

19:53

it Is the proper now in a community

19:56

is it like a group of people that identify and

19:58

self-identify do they get together? I feel

20:00

like there was an IndieWeb conference of some sorts. Can

20:02

you tell us about that? Have you been part of

20:04

any of those events and stuff? So,

20:06

short answer, yes. End of focus. Yeah,

20:09

so short answer, yes. So,

20:11

indieweb.org is the main page

20:14

for the IndieWeb

20:16

community. So, it's more

20:18

along the lines of like capital

20:20

IndieWeb, but the idea is

20:22

it's meant to be the

20:25

community for people doing IndieWeb

20:27

related things. So, there

20:29

are IndieWeb camps, which are the

20:31

conferences. In fact, in

20:34

just over a month, or just under a month, there's

20:36

one in Brighton in the UK, but

20:38

they have them all over the globe.

20:40

I've been to a couple and

20:42

they're quite good because you basically come in

20:44

and you don't have to have built your own website.

20:47

You don't have to know anything about it. There's

20:49

like a few sessions at the beginning of

20:51

the day where it's like, well, actually, is

20:54

the IndieWeb, why is it actually important to

20:56

even just like own your URL and

20:59

not constantly be on twitter.com, slash whatever,

21:01

or now x.com, slash whatever, then

21:04

people go around and like share their websites. So,

21:06

you have like demos of like, this

21:08

is what my website looks like. And then

21:11

there are breakout sessions where you can talk about different

21:13

things. So, some people

21:15

are very interested in like owning their

21:17

location data. So, for instance, instead

21:19

of using something like Foursquare, they will use their

21:21

website. And then there's also

21:24

like interesting conversations around like privacy,

21:26

things like that, because often a lot of

21:29

people who are sharing their

21:31

location data in real time

21:34

are cishet white pan who

21:36

are not generally affected by,

21:40

oh, someone knows my location, they're now gonna

21:42

stalk me. So, there's like

21:44

a lot of interesting things around that and

21:46

trying to make that data less

21:49

invasive. Also interesting, because you may want to

21:51

be able to know, here are all the

21:53

places I checked into in the last week, because

21:55

you may want to like draw a map of places

21:57

you've been, stuff like that. That's cool stuff.

22:00

I feel like I've always been I guess

22:02

I identify with the indie web it seems

22:04

like that community everyone that I've

22:06

met so far are very inclusive they're not like

22:08

drawing lines like you are or are not indie

22:10

web you know like that's not the point the

22:12

point is like to promote the stuff that you're

22:15

talking about. And I'm a

22:17

longtime believer in own your own domain published

22:19

on your own website syndicate

22:22

etc. And like Adam said that's what we've

22:24

been doing for years here

22:26

on change log com we have a website

22:28

as well Jamie change log com. And

22:32

yeah it's cool stuff how

22:34

far do you go in with so you

22:37

got Fediverse implementation or integration do you do

22:39

web mentions those are always something that

22:41

any web people bring up. We

22:44

have like we've been adopting some of

22:46

the new podcasting standards podcasting

22:49

2.0 spec which integrates

22:51

stuff that's kind of like web mentions

22:53

like cross app comments which is very

22:55

much using. Is it just

22:57

mastodon or is it the Fediverse I don't know it's

22:59

using these kind of things to

23:02

try to create for podcasting some

23:04

of the stuff that I think activity pub is starting

23:06

to create a little bit for social

23:08

and for syndication. What

23:11

all does your website do so

23:14

my website is a static website to build

23:16

with Hugo and as I mentioned it takes

23:19

like 10 minutes to deploy because I just

23:21

want to be big. I've just

23:23

got so much content in it and I

23:25

also say for instance like if I'd like

23:27

to post I want to

23:29

mock that up with what

23:31

that post actually is so instead of just having

23:33

like I looked change log

23:36

com slash friends slash whatever. I

23:38

want it to be like listen

23:40

to change on friends the episode

23:42

with Jamie Tanner sort of thing

23:44

so as part of that I also need

23:46

to fetch like information around what that post

23:49

is so in the bank. I'll

23:52

be looking at does it support

23:54

micro formats which are an indie

23:56

web markup around HTML which lets

23:58

you. Your Html

24:00

elements basically say like misses the

24:03

post content. This. Is the title of

24:05

the post. Soul. Of things like that

24:07

there will also look for things like

24:09

open graph must say so and for

24:11

backed by so can do a few

24:13

things to try and gauge what others.

24:16

Thought. San so much takes

24:18

a long time to build as

24:20

as lol content and at it's

24:22

yeah got a law files and

24:25

I'm also using Galaxy eyes. Hosted.

24:27

Runners because I've gone through like

24:30

pieces of trying to host of

24:32

myself and speed up. On.

24:34

Them to spend like. This is still

24:36

costly. And time cause these

24:38

will seven playroom will have to

24:41

for options. And then yes,

24:43

are you about women's And so yes

24:45

that is for what mentions. So.

24:47

Once my sight deploys Finally the son

24:50

of weapons that some to one of

24:52

my services.run. On Thought then

24:54

looks at the site map for the

24:56

site. And says which things

24:58

have changed recently A man l

25:00

guess reach those pages, find any

25:02

links and somehow Mcmansions to the

25:05

world which than on most my

25:07

posts will have something called pretty

25:09

Fed. To. Bridge he is Service

25:11

one by Robert said the ended

25:13

up an who tries to bridge lotta

25:15

different social networks and so pretty

25:17

fat is that said about session

25:19

of off and so I don't

25:21

have to manage your understand any

25:23

the front of us stuff. I.

25:26

Can just send a what mention? I'm Brian

25:28

does have a hard work with a

25:30

community building bridges. Had to understand what

25:32

my website looks like. He isn't think

25:34

someone for months. And then translate

25:37

that to an activity pump. Is

25:39

com time on that will then get some town

25:41

to all the people who follow me elsewhere. So.

25:44

People directly from their masters on a

25:46

coma wherever they can follow my sight

25:48

natively get the same content as if

25:51

he were just. Browsing, The

25:53

web which pray to. Now

25:55

you're riding. He. has some sort of

25:57

alternate set up where you don't have to rebuild Are

26:00

you just rebuilding the current blog post? Because I know

26:02

that I used to use Jekyll quite a bit and

26:05

it was a minute or two to build the

26:07

whole site. And yet while

26:09

I was writing, there was times where I

26:11

would just rebuild the same file. Other times I

26:13

want to see how that affected some

26:16

sort of aggregation page or tags page or those

26:18

other stuff. And it got to

26:20

be very annoying at one to two minutes just

26:23

to work on it. And with

26:25

Hugo, which is a much faster generator, your

26:28

site must be very, very large. Does

26:30

it ever get annoying while you're writing

26:32

to have all this machinations or

26:34

is that just not happening? Oh

26:37

well. So I also started with Jekyll

26:39

and I got to a couple of minutes and was

26:41

like, this is really painful. We've moved to Hugo and

26:43

over time it's got worse and worse. So

26:46

my solution for writing is don't try

26:48

and preview the post. Just

26:51

do not run my site locally is a

26:53

pretty horrible solution to it. But

26:55

I'm fairly used to what markdown

26:58

rendering looks like for my site.

27:00

So if I'm doing significant changes

27:03

on the theming, I will then run it locally. What

27:06

I will do is I will delete most

27:08

of the site's content or get Hugo to

27:10

exclude building most of the site's content, which

27:13

that means that it is a lot quicker, a

27:15

lot easier to run. Yeah, it's definitely not a

27:17

good experience most of the time. Over

27:20

the last 18 months, I keep going to

27:23

rebuild my website from scratch and make it

27:25

a dynamic site. But that's a

27:27

massive thing to do. I don't really

27:29

have time. Or I

27:31

can't make time when I have so many other things I

27:33

want to be doing and need to be doing, but

27:36

that then makes it really tough. I

27:38

don't know how you can write without previewing it. I

27:41

just have to see what it looks like. I

27:43

kind of know what it's going to look like. I

27:45

still want to see what it looks like, like the

27:47

final version. There's satisfaction in that. Yeah, and I'm an

27:49

editor. I don't do like a draft and then edit

27:51

it. I literally edit as I

27:53

write, which is one of the reasons why this guy

27:55

is writing, because that's just a painful way of doing it,

27:58

but I have never been able to just write. and

28:00

not be like, well that's a bad sentence. I just can't do

28:02

that. People can do that. I don't know if you can. They'll

28:04

just write their thoughts. They'll spit all their thoughts out and they'll

28:06

be like draft one and then they'll go back and edit it.

28:10

I've never been able to do that because I

28:12

can't leave the crappy stuff in there. So

28:14

I'm editing the whole way. I'm also previewing like almost each

28:16

step of the way. So

28:18

even knowing what Markdown is going to look like

28:20

on the website, I'm still like, nah, I just

28:23

want to see it. It's kind of funny because

28:25

you just talked about the ephemeral idea, which crappy

28:27

writing, unedited stream of thought is

28:29

kind of like embracing ephemeral in a way.

28:31

Sort of, yeah. So I would encourage you

28:33

to revisit that idea considering you're new to

28:35

change a thought. I should

28:38

try it. I should try to write an

28:40

entire blog post without stopping and just

28:42

see if I can actually get that done. I think so too.

28:44

I mean because I had to, while you were talking there, the

28:46

audience couldn't see it, but I was like shaking my head yes.

28:48

I was like, nah, no, maybe not because

28:51

there's definitely times I throw things down and I

28:53

appreciate it going back lit. I'm like, wow, this

28:55

reads terribly, but I get the idea and

28:57

it's not published, but it gives

29:00

me new position because it's old

29:02

Adam's thoughts that I've forgotten that

29:04

I go back and revisit that lead me

29:06

to new thoughts. But I was bold enough

29:08

to at least write it down even though

29:10

it sucked in the moment, so

29:13

I can appreciate it about my past writing

29:15

when I've written. So I know a

29:17

number of people who write draft posts

29:19

on their websites, so it's

29:22

a publicly visible, but it has a little

29:24

banner that says, this is a draft post.

29:27

It may contain errors. I may not have fleshed

29:29

out ideas. And that's quite a

29:31

nice way because you are very much

29:33

saying like, I have written this thing. I

29:35

know it's not great, but I'm happy

29:38

hitting publish. That

29:40

takes some guts. It does. And

29:42

like one of the problems with writing

29:44

and writing publicly where lots of people

29:46

are going to read it is

29:49

that, oh, is someone going

29:51

to complain about this comment or

29:54

how many people am I going to get well actually

29:56

by. So I kind of have like

29:58

two. of writing. So my

30:01

first mode is like blockamentation style,

30:04

which is I'm just getting the

30:06

thoughts out of my brain so I can forget

30:08

about it. And in the future I can come back

30:10

to it and learn about it again. Or I

30:12

have posts that I definitely do

30:14

want, or I'm planning on other people

30:16

reading. And some of those posts

30:19

take like weeks of going back and

30:21

reediting and everything. And

30:23

yeah, I'm fortunate that I

30:26

don't mind too much about

30:28

hitting publish. And people's thoughts on

30:30

it, but it still does take a while for

30:32

some of the big moose. So

30:34

I can't wait to see what's going on. I

30:36

know I can be particularly spicy. People can have

30:38

big thoughts. Sure. And

31:04

I'm here with Lee Robinson, VP of Product. Lee,

31:07

I know you know the tagline

31:09

for Vercel, develop preview ship, which

31:11

has been perfect, but now there's

31:13

more after the ship process. You

31:15

have to worry about security, observability,

31:18

and other parts of just running

31:20

an application production. What's the story

31:22

there? What's beyond shipping for Vercel?

31:24

Yeah, you know, when I'm building my side

31:26

projects or when I'm building my personal site,

31:29

it often looks like develop preview ship, you

31:31

know, I try out some new features. I

31:33

tried a new framework. I'm just hacking around

31:35

with something on the weekends. Everything looks good.

31:37

Great. I ship it. I'm done. But as

31:39

we talk to more customers, as we've grown

31:41

as a company, as we've added new products,

31:43

there's a lot more to the product portfolio

31:46

of Vercel nowadays to help pass that experience.

31:48

So when you're building larger, more complex products,

31:50

and when you're working with larger teams, you want

31:53

to have more features, more functionality. So, tangibly,

31:55

what that means is features like our Vercel

31:57

firewall product to help you be safe. and

32:00

to have that layer of security features

32:02

like our logging and observability tool so

32:04

you can understand and observe your application

32:06

in production, understand if there's errors, understand

32:08

if things are running smoothly and get

32:10

alerted on those. And also then really

32:13

an expansion of our integration suite as

32:15

well too because you might already be

32:17

using a tool like a Datadog or

32:19

you might already be using a tool

32:21

at the end of this software development

32:23

lifecycle that you want to integrate with

32:25

to continue to scale and secure and

32:27

observe your application. And we try to

32:29

fit into those as well too.

32:31

So we kind of continue to

32:34

bolster and improve the last mile

32:36

of delivery. That sounds

32:38

amazing. So who's using the Vercel platform like

32:40

that? Can you share some names? Yeah,

32:43

I'm thrilled that we have some

32:45

amazing customers like Under Armour, Nintendo,

32:47

Washington Post, Zapier who use

32:50

Vercel's running cloud to not only help

32:52

scale their infrastructure, scale their business and

32:54

their product, but then also enable their

32:57

team of many developers to be able

32:59

to iterate on their products

33:01

really quickly and take their ideas and

33:03

build the next great thing. Very cool.

33:05

With zero configuration for over 35 frameworks,

33:07

Vercel's running cloud makes it easy for

33:10

any team to deploy their apps. Today

33:12

you can get started with a 14-day

33:14

free trial of Vercel

33:16

Pro or get a

33:19

customized enterprise demo from

33:21

their team. Visit vercel.com/change

33:23

log pod to get

33:26

started. That's vercel.com/change log

33:28

pod. Well,

33:32

we know you're not afraid of being in

33:35

the public because another thing that you've done

33:37

famously is publish your salary, right

33:39

over the years, which has gotten

33:41

a lot of attention, helps some people

33:44

tell us a bit of that story and then we'll talk about it.

33:47

Yeah, so I've been posting my

33:49

salary publicly since 2021 and

33:52

part of it was I was leaving a

33:54

job and I had just

33:57

gone through the job hunt and

33:59

I've been talking to you. to a number

34:01

of people privately about salary

34:04

and what the job market was looking like. It was a

34:06

particularly good time, not the most

34:08

recent ridiculous job market, but it was

34:10

a pretty good set of roles out

34:12

there. I was very happy

34:15

with the salary increase I was getting at the

34:17

time. I

34:19

very impulsively was like, you know what? I'm going

34:21

to post about this. I

34:24

did not check whether legally I

34:26

could do, which thankfully I was

34:28

fine. I was like, you

34:30

know what? I'm talking to enough people about this

34:32

and back to like number of keys left and

34:35

everything. I want to make sure that this

34:37

isn't a federal thing and this is something that

34:39

people can refer to and people

34:41

don't need to come up and ask me

34:43

about it because like in the UK, people

34:45

aren't happy talking about money. I

34:47

think it's a fairly global phenomenon where

34:50

people are just not going to

34:52

talk about it and therefore

34:54

companies get away with massively

34:58

underpaying people being very

35:00

unfair or even

35:02

just people not realizing that

35:05

they're actually doing pretty well for themselves.

35:08

Yes, I posted my salary. I

35:10

went back through my history. I

35:13

had fortunately only had a couple of jobs, so I

35:16

had all of this stuff available. I was

35:18

still in the job I was at that

35:20

had been five years. I had five years

35:22

of finances that I could just

35:24

download and upload. It's

35:27

been very good because it has helped a

35:29

lot of people. I've directly had

35:32

people I do and do not know message

35:34

me to say thanks for posting it. But

35:36

also in the last

35:39

few years, I've had at

35:41

least about 45 to 50,000 hits

35:43

on that page. I

35:47

say at least because a lot of people strip

35:49

things like analytics, which is good. So

35:51

it's probably a lot more than that. That's

35:54

cool. I can definitely see how it would benefit people and

35:56

I See absolutely the

35:58

benefit. Inside the same org?

36:01

Like people talking about their salaries? Inside the

36:03

same or two. Then you realize like wait

36:05

a second, You know, You're making that

36:07

much. They're paying me half. That would have the same

36:09

job only. Ill. Let. Me: Go talk

36:11

to the boss in a like. That's an

36:13

obvious when I still think it's take a lot

36:15

to put yourself out there. I know that

36:17

I personally have always been like. How

36:20

much money I make? it's nobody's business but

36:22

my own and. Is. How much money you

36:24

make is? It's not my business either. That's just. Been.

36:26

My default stance on life. And

36:28

so it's It's interesting to seize

36:30

you willing to do that and.

36:33

As anybody, follow your lead. You.

36:35

See, Since I first mine, I

36:37

know at least five or six

36:39

people who pursue it directly off

36:41

the back to be. First.

36:43

In mind So that's been pointless

36:45

because it's been a mix of

36:47

different people have rangers levels, there's

36:49

some be billie work on what

36:52

consulting sort of a slightly different

36:54

income stream to to salaried employees

36:56

on man even since posting it

36:58

on found people who had already

37:00

been posted in as. Difference.

37:02

In the yeah so she's been posting

37:04

house for some time. Developing are good

37:06

because it gives. A. Little bit

37:09

of difference whereas like. The.

37:11

People I know or or Uk based

37:13

and around the same sort of area.

37:16

So. Things like cost of living

37:18

everything's fairly standard The for lot

37:20

of other people it's interesting. The.

37:22

Other thing or found what sickly

37:24

interesting is from my previous job

37:26

deliveries so I joined with salary

37:29

of nice thousand pounds and this

37:31

was during the period where companies

37:33

were going wild for and today's

37:35

they were. Willing. To throw a

37:37

lot of money. And about a

37:39

year or so later, Those

37:41

around a promotions and people who

37:44

were promoted to the same level

37:46

as I was when I joined

37:48

were getting ten percent less. On.

37:50

Salary. and is things got

37:52

out that if you didn't have

37:54

this data very publicly of people

37:56

told mouth you miss out on

37:58

some of that A lot of

38:01

companies do have salary bonds and

38:03

that makes it at least a little bit better. But I've

38:06

also seen job adverts which are this

38:08

salary range is anywhere between 60 grand

38:11

and 250 grand. That's

38:13

not a helpful range. That's

38:16

wildly different. What do

38:18

you think, Adam? Would you post your

38:20

– let's say if you and I

38:23

went back to being W2 employees and just had

38:25

an annual salary, sharing that publicly. Would

38:28

that feel like something you'd be willing to

38:30

do? Would you hesitate? No way? What are

38:32

your thoughts? I guess it depends

38:34

on how frequently I move jobs because I know

38:37

that that's one thing when you move a lot

38:39

or even I suppose a lot is not always

38:41

an accurate way to describe it because a lot

38:43

could be every six months to a year or

38:45

so. And that could be used against you in

38:47

some ways like when you're a new way in. I

38:50

think one of the questions that's a meme

38:52

on TikTok which is, okay,

38:54

so what was your previous salary? And

38:56

the person responds, I

38:59

signed an NDA. It's

39:02

a funny schtick they do. It's a comedic thing in a way. I

39:05

feel like I'm of your camp, Jared,

39:07

where I don't – I feel like what

39:09

I make is my own business and what you make

39:11

is your own business. And I

39:13

think the reason why is obvious societal. I

39:15

think it begins with that

39:18

when people know certain details about

39:20

your person, they can begin to assume. They

39:22

begin to – not so much

39:24

cash judgment but they begin to sort

39:26

of determine who you are and what

39:29

you can do based upon what they think

39:31

they know about you. And then the biggest

39:33

thing it really is, your finances because that's

39:35

like one of the number

39:37

one resources that we all leverage to

39:40

progress in life in

39:42

some way, shape, or form. And so that's the

39:44

resource for which many people are judged by. How

39:46

much money do you make? Oh, well, that's why

39:48

you drive that car. Oh, that's why you have

39:50

that home or oh, that's why you value these

39:52

things or oh, that's why X, Y, or Z.

39:55

So I'm like maybe no, but

39:57

then I also see the benefit in it. I

40:00

think if it was, I just don't know if I could be in that

40:02

camp. I see the benefit, but I don't know

40:04

if I can participate in the camp that says, okay,

40:06

let me do this. I

40:08

wanna contrast this though, because you mentioned this in

40:10

the preparatory stuff, and this is something

40:13

I knew about Oxide, is they, Brian

40:15

Cantrill and Steve Tuck, when they founded the

40:17

company, they were like, okay, we wanna sort

40:19

of pay ourselves a goodness

40:21

salary, but we don't have to stress so much about

40:24

money. It's not so much that we're making, our

40:27

company may be valued at X, and on paper,

40:29

we're worth more, because over time, Oxide begins to

40:31

have a higher and higher valuation, but their salary

40:33

is 175 a year USD. And

40:38

when I met some folks recently

40:40

at All Things Open, I

40:42

was surprised to learn, this is when I first learned,

40:44

I learned face to face that everyone in the company

40:46

makes the same amount of money as the two founders.

40:49

And so they said, we wanna pay everyone the same.

40:52

And so I think in that context, Jared, that

40:54

might be interesting for us, you and

40:56

I, this change, I'll just say, this is how much money we make,

40:59

that would really be amazing if

41:02

we paid everyone else the same thing we pay ourselves,

41:04

but that's not exactly true. So

41:06

that might be embarrassing to be like, okay, there's

41:08

that divide there, so to speak. At

41:11

the same time, we're also the ones taking all the

41:13

risk and riding the wave of down

41:15

years, up years, et cetera. So I get that, but

41:17

we're not building an Oxide company. In

41:19

that light, if I were building an Oxide,

41:22

and I had similar possibilities and ambitions that

41:24

Brian and his team do, then

41:26

I would probably do that. That sounds like

41:28

a good thing for the

41:31

morale and a good thing to market. Like we're

41:33

talking about it in this moment because it's cool,

41:35

right? So there's a marketability to it. I

41:38

think as well, so Buffer in the

41:40

last few days, they've also announced that

41:42

they're doing similar. The

41:45

way Buffer does it is they have

41:47

everyone's salary as public, which

41:49

I think I'm less a fan of. So

41:51

I really like the way that Oxide

41:54

does it, where everyone gets the same, and

41:56

it's very, very stable

41:59

and nice and... equal or equal.

42:01

Yeah, equal, not equal. The

42:03

buffer you have the risk that you can

42:05

go and look someone else's salary up. Like,

42:09

I have absolutely made the choice that

42:11

I am happy with for the

42:13

rest of my life, because I'm not planning on undoing

42:15

this. For the rest of my life, people

42:17

will see what I'm paid. But to be

42:19

able to know that one of your friends works

42:21

buffer and just look up their name, and

42:24

look up how much they're getting. I'm not

42:26

as much of a fan. And I believe there

42:28

is a not out for employees. It's

42:30

the sort of thing that you know, I don't

42:33

recommend everyone try and post their

42:35

salary publicly, because very few

42:37

people can do it is a very privileged

42:39

thing to be able to do, and to

42:41

be happy doing that if

42:43

people are at least talking about

42:45

it privately with their friends and

42:47

family, that is really the important

42:49

thing because companies get away with

42:51

underpaying people and less

42:55

and things are generally because people aren't talking

42:57

about things. People are feeling that they're being

42:59

like pitted against each other. When really it's

43:02

the workers who do the work to make

43:04

the company what it is. It's

43:07

really important for people to get fair

43:10

pay, fair share. And

43:12

yeah, I absolutely think more

43:14

people should be talking about it.

43:16

delivery, we didn't really talk about things like

43:19

this. So aside from

43:21

me joining and sharing my salary and a few people

43:23

talking to me after the vote, we

43:26

didn't really talk about salaries until redundancy's

43:28

opened. And at that point, people

43:30

were much more happy to talk about things much

43:32

more happy to talk about, here's

43:34

what I got on my performance management reviews,

43:36

and things like it's a shame that we

43:38

had to go through such a horrible position

43:41

to feel that we could actually share

43:43

those things that make everyone

43:45

more equal and make it easier

43:47

for us to be better people.

43:50

So two questions. One,

43:53

did anybody at Deliveroo, especially

43:55

upper management, take offense

43:58

or were they upset that you that. So

44:02

legally, we're protected in the UK.

44:04

So fortunately, there's nothing they could

44:06

officially do. However, it's one

44:09

of those things that I

44:11

am probably not quite tarnished. But

44:14

I'm sure there will be companies who will look at

44:16

me and be like, No, not that guy. So

44:19

comments from Tina Fey, over the last couple of

44:21

days about not saying what you

44:23

think about films, because you never know when you're

44:25

gonna work with that director stuff like that. I

44:28

am sure that there are going to

44:30

be impacts of that, where

44:33

people know that I will be willing

44:35

to share my salary because I am

44:37

protected to do so. And it is,

44:39

in my opinion, the right thing to do for me. Also,

44:43

I think, yeah, I speak out

44:45

a lot. So in the meetings

44:47

and stuff, I was happy voicing

44:49

the opinions that I would

44:51

be happy lending my voice to us asking

44:54

a question that I knew other people would

44:56

be wanting to know. And

44:58

I know that not just a delivery, but

45:01

a capital one where I was when

45:03

I posted my salary, I know

45:05

that it did make things difficult for me, because I

45:08

had handed in my notice, I have

45:11

been posted that I have missed categorize

45:13

something as a counter offer when

45:15

it wasn't. And I know that definitely

45:17

did ruffles and feathers. And

45:19

that was on me misunderstanding the

45:22

wording of something. But those things

45:24

like that. And I'm sure there

45:26

will be companies who look at me, like,

45:28

I don't think we want someone

45:30

like that. And that's fine. But I'm happy

45:32

if that's what they want to do. Hopefully,

45:34

it doesn't mean that I can work literally

45:36

nowhere. Because then I then I will definitely

45:38

regret it. Well, that was gonna be my

45:41

second question was if there are any regrets

45:43

whatsoever. And it sounds like

45:45

there's some trepidation about potentially becoming

45:47

persona non grata, utterly, at which

45:49

point you're like, well, that wasn't

45:51

very smart. But beyond that, I

45:53

mean, you're going to continue it for the rest of

45:55

your life. So you can't regret it very much

45:57

if at all. Yeah, so it's still I

46:00

absolutely plan on carrying on with it.

46:02

I did recently add on-call pay as

46:05

well. Is that a separate page on my site? Just

46:08

because it's interesting, because different organizations have

46:10

different things. I

46:13

feel it's something that I may regret it

46:15

in 30 years, holding myself

46:17

to it for the rest of my career. He

46:22

has the blowback, I think. Being

46:24

too open, there's not so much anonymity, but

46:28

a certain privacy level of life

46:30

has its benefits. Especially,

46:32

you don't know what the future's gonna be, so if you're

46:34

open now, and I know you're sort of

46:36

pre-committed to this conversation, and now

46:39

here on the call, you're like, for life, I'm

46:41

gonna share my salary. You've laid

46:43

that down. And in

46:45

two years from now, something you do

46:47

could make you super famous. Maybe

46:50

that's cool, and maybe that's part of your brand at that

46:52

point, you'll just embrace it. And that's

46:54

cool, but maybe somebody, I'm

46:56

actually, Jared knows this, he makes

46:58

fun of me. I say absolute

47:00

things, because I feel so

47:03

strongly in the moment, and I make a long-term,

47:05

forever commitment in a way, with

47:07

something I'll say, and then later on, I'm

47:09

like, well, my idea around

47:12

that change, so now what I've said in the

47:14

past is no longer accurate, so I try to

47:16

not be so absolute about things. My

47:19

wife and I have a funny thing between us, we always say always

47:22

and every time, because

47:24

early in our relationship, we would say you always do this,

47:26

or every time, just these absolute things that

47:29

are just totally not true. It's just

47:31

our irrational, in the moment selves, saying things that

47:33

are not accurate and true about the other person.

47:36

And then that's now become our love language

47:38

in a way, because we make fun of

47:40

old selves, essentially, by saying you

47:42

always do this every time, we always say it back

47:44

to just jokingly, but this

47:46

absolute idea that you've done it

47:48

forever, I wonder how

47:51

it'll play out for you long-term, I suppose, because you're

47:53

pretty young, right? Like how old are you? Willing

47:55

to show your age? Wouldn't

47:58

that be funny if he's like, I don't want to share my age. So I mean,

48:00

you got a lot of years left in your life, right? Keys left

48:02

for you is pretty big. Probably

48:04

in the, you know, I would

48:06

say probably 400 million keys is my guess

48:09

for you. Oh, that's a lot. Well,

48:11

I just did my own keys left and I knew my

48:13

age and I just did some division there. So I assume

48:15

that his is probably double-ish mine or

48:18

at least one-third-ish mine. You got a

48:20

lot of typing to do. Yeah, it's a lot

48:22

of typing. But I guess on the topic of

48:24

like, regressing things. So I, since 2020, have

48:27

been posting weeknotes. So

48:32

every week on Sunday evening, I write

48:35

a blog post about what has happened in the week.

48:38

And I sorted it just

48:40

like before COVID. And it

48:42

was interesting because certain things

48:44

changed. I'm looking back at

48:46

that. But it wasn't until

48:48

about six months, a year

48:51

ago, when I started hearing about

48:53

like, some of my extended family reading

48:56

my weeknotes that I was like, oh, that's

48:58

a bit weird. And like your diary

49:00

in a way. And I was like, why

49:02

am I finding this weird? I have been

49:04

posting publicly on the internet things about

49:06

my life. So why do I

49:09

care that my extended family have been

49:11

reading it, let alone like someone,

49:13

several countries away who I've never met. And

49:16

that was like an interesting inflection point of

49:19

rethinking what sort of things I have

49:22

been sharing publicly. And so there's

49:24

definitely some things that I also have like private

49:26

journal, that I do post a bit

49:28

more stuff into that. And I

49:30

keep my weeknotes a little bit lighter on

49:32

some things because I

49:35

have a fair few readers, I don't

49:37

know exactly how many, but there's definitely

49:39

people who have like, messaged

49:41

me, like, ah, I've also watched that

49:43

film recently. And

49:46

I was like, that's weird. But yeah,

49:48

but yeah, also like, I'm posting it

49:50

publicly. Like, right. Yeah, it should not

49:52

be unexpected, because you are literally

49:54

publishing it for people to read. But

49:56

yet sometimes it still is unexpected,

49:59

especially when. when you know them. It's

50:01

actually, there's a weird disconnect

50:04

when it comes to strangers and when it comes to people that you

50:06

know. Like, I

50:08

get more self-conscious about

50:10

something that I make, especially

50:12

if it's like my work, when

50:15

somebody that I know or that I care

50:17

about is gonna consume it or judge it or

50:19

whatever, but I ship stuff out

50:21

to thousands of people every

50:23

day to do the exact same

50:25

thing, you know? And to me,

50:27

like them judging it is fine. It's like, okay,

50:29

like it or not, hopefully you like it, but

50:32

if my wife thinks something sucks, you

50:34

know, I was like, well, I didn't

50:36

make it for you specifically, but if you don't like

50:38

it, that hurts, you know? And so

50:41

it's just weird. It's like we disconnect strangers from

50:43

people that we know, yeah. Can we go

50:45

a personal layer deeper on this one? Whose

50:48

person, Jamie? For you, Jamie, yes, for you.

50:51

It's up to them. Our guest, our friend. It's up to them. Not our

50:53

friend, our friend. So you mentioned you have ADHD

50:56

and you mentioned that you have the inattentive type

50:59

and you mentioned that you have memory

51:01

challenges. I think it's mostly

51:03

in short-term, not your actual like long-term memory. And

51:07

what I know because I was

51:09

the host of a show called Brain Science for a Bit and

51:11

I've studied neuroscience to some degree, not

51:14

at all a clinical psychologist nor a doctor

51:16

of any sort, but just a layman who's

51:18

curious. And that, you

51:20

know, this is common for someone that

51:23

has your diagnosis. It's called memory breadcrumbs.

51:26

And so I think you do it one as a, I'm

51:29

assuming this, I wanna hear your response. I

51:31

think you do it one for therapeutic reasons. It's

51:33

helpful for you to have this

51:35

habit to do this. It's part of

51:37

your ritual and routine in

51:40

life that gives you peace to sort

51:42

of put this out there. Then as a

51:44

technologist, you value the exhaust, the output of

51:46

that for future. Because you can,

51:48

again, I can vaguely remember I wrote about this X,

51:50

Y, or Z and then pull it up and don't

51:52

have to leverage your memory

51:55

anymore. You can sort of leverage your handicap

51:57

in a way. And

51:59

then also the... personal journals probably super therapeutic

52:01

for you. There's certain things you probably learned

52:03

over time you can't involve in these weekly

52:05

notes. But that this

52:07

is essentially like your response,

52:10

kind of like a coping mechanism or

52:12

a fight or flight kind of response in a

52:14

way to your diagnosis that this

52:16

is actually memory breadcrumbs for you. This is a

52:19

way for you and how it's helpful for someone

52:21

like you to put down

52:23

what they learn and remember. And

52:25

I'm just curious how that how you feel about

52:27

that. Like is that pretty accurate? Have I pegged that?

52:30

Yeah, so I've never heard the term memory breadcrumbs. So

52:32

thank you for that. I'm going to go and search

52:35

around on that. And yeah, it absolutely sounds

52:37

like what I'm doing. So

52:39

on the technical side is yeah, leaving

52:41

those breadcrumbs for myself to try

52:43

and remember what was doing

52:45

for the week notes. It was

52:48

more just I've seen some friends

52:50

doing this on I see what it's like. But

52:52

it has definitely become this therapeutic

52:54

thing where every Sunday night

52:56

is week notes night. And it gives me

52:58

a chance to reflect on the week. It's

53:02

like a lot of the time it's it's interesting looking

53:04

back and I don't often read

53:06

my old ones which is also kind of

53:08

ephemeral, but I'll read them while I'm writing

53:10

them and then I won't look at them

53:13

for years. But something interesting

53:15

is like looking back and seeing

53:18

okay, so the things that I was most

53:20

bothered about that week was like a technical

53:22

problem that who cares in the big

53:24

scheme of things or I'll do

53:26

things like I'll note the different media

53:28

I've watched in the week. And

53:31

that's interesting because I can see every so

53:33

often, oh, I've actually only

53:35

watched three things this week. So

53:37

be the not really watching a lot of TV

53:40

or I've binged something a lot. And

53:43

that's also interesting to like look back on that.

53:45

Yes, to go back to your original

53:47

question, because he is sidetracking me. Yes,

53:50

you did diagnose that fairly well. Do you

53:52

think it gives you a position of gratitude

53:55

better because I feel like the reason why

53:57

journaling is helpful is not just in the

53:59

therapeutic process of espousing

54:01

your own thoughts and putting them

54:03

down on paper and or digital paper

54:06

whatever the medium really is. But

54:08

it also maybe helps you reflect like you said reflect

54:11

on what happened this week and you

54:13

may not go back and read the other ones but

54:16

you're probably taking track each week mentally okay this week's

54:18

different than last week where you see

54:20

progress in the moment as you write it down.

54:23

Does it give you a chance to sort of have

54:25

a deeper gratitude for

54:28

what's going on or does it give you

54:30

content like what does it help you feel

54:32

better or less about? So

54:34

I guess when I said journaling it's

54:37

not like proper journaling so it's more

54:39

just like talk about things that

54:41

have happened in the week and

54:44

there's not always like a lot of reflection

54:46

sometimes it is just these are the things

54:48

that happened and that were of

54:50

note for me to have remembered

54:53

during the week to write down but

54:55

yeah sometimes like there are definitely friends

54:57

and there's things like oh

54:59

I've been very busy

55:02

with work this week I've been trying to deal

55:04

with a complex problem and therefore

55:06

like my personal life is maybe a little

55:08

bit more chaotic. I think it was

55:10

last week I was at the State

55:12

of OpenCon conference in London and

55:15

in the lead up to the conference I spent a lot

55:17

of time mentally blocked to write

55:19

my slides for the talk that I

55:22

was presenting there and so

55:24

a lot of my free time was

55:26

kind of like oh I should really

55:28

be doing my slides but I don't really have the

55:30

brain power to do it so I'm just going to

55:32

do nothing and I'm not going to do like a

55:34

load of other life admin I'm not going to

55:36

do a load of other personal projects I'm just going to not

55:39

do anything because if I had the brain power

55:41

I would do that and yeah

55:43

so it does give some reflection on things like that

55:45

as well. Are you a big movie fan?

55:47

You watch a lot of movies? Yes. Are

55:49

you a Christopher Nolan fan by any chance? The

55:52

director Christopher Nolan? Yeah. There's

55:54

a movie he had done called Memento. Does this ring a bell

55:56

to you? I haven't seen it.

55:58

I've heard of it. Well, I won't

56:00

ruin it for you But

56:05

it definitely involves memory and it

56:07

kind of involves time because it really

56:10

It goes about the plot of the

56:12

movie differently than any other movie you've ever seen before

56:15

It's very groundbreaking in the way it tells the story

56:18

But loosely this person has memory challenges

56:20

and loosely this person uses

56:23

their own notes To

56:25

guide them through their next steps and

56:27

sometimes these notes aren't really accurate Because

56:30

they have memory challenges and so they they they

56:32

remember them one way they when they write them

56:34

down for the future selves These memory breadcrumbs so

56:36

to speak but then in the

56:38

moment because they have short-term memory loss they

56:40

saying too much man You're saying I'm giving

56:42

you some stuff like it's really challenging You're

56:45

like dude. This is one of the best movies at

56:47

all. Did I give it did I give it away

56:49

too much? I may not remember. It's pretty true. That's

56:52

pretty that's very vague. I think I was pretty vague

56:54

You should just go watch it It's different than ADHD

56:56

for sure But it's it's still the idea of memory

56:58

breadcrumbs and like leveraging the things you write down to

57:00

remember the things in the future We're gonna have

57:02

to blow the whole the spoiler horn before that

57:04

whole session though. Remember that you think so God

57:07

Oh, whatever just in case didn't try to know

57:09

I know you were trying not to but you

57:11

just kept going I'm like, uh, oh, he's starting

57:13

to get more and more on the floor pull

57:15

it back. Yeah reel it in It's

57:17

a good movie I would definitely recommend watching

57:20

it and I think given this conversation You

57:22

will appreciate the movie even more and we'll know

57:24

about it when we read your weak notes. That's

57:26

right Like Adam was

57:28

wrong. This movie is terrible. I hope he doesn't

57:31

read this. That's right. That's right I

57:52

Know friends this episode is brought

57:54

to you by our friends at

57:56

Sanadia. Sanadia is helping teams take

57:58

NASA the next level via a

58:01

global multi-cloud, multi-geo, and extensible

58:03

service. Fully managed by Sanidia,

58:05

they take care of all

58:07

the infrastructure, management, monitoring, and

58:10

maintenance for you. So you

58:12

can focus on building exceptional

58:14

distributed applications. And I'm here

58:16

with VP of product and engineering, Byron Ruth. So

58:19

Byron in the NATS versus

58:21

Kafka conversation, I hear a

58:24

couple of different things, one I hear out there,

58:26

I hate Kafka with a passion. That's quoted by

58:28

the way on Hacker News. I

58:30

hear Kafka is dead, long live Kafka.

58:33

And I hear Kafka is the default,

58:35

but I hate it. So what's the

58:37

deal with NATS versus Kafka? Yeah.

58:40

So Kafka is an interesting one. I've

58:42

personally followed Kafka for quite some time

58:44

ever since the LinkedIn days. And I

58:46

think what they've done in terms

58:48

of transitioning the landscape to event

58:51

streaming has been wonderful. I think

58:53

they definitely were the sort of

58:55

first market for persistent data streaming.

58:57

However, over time, as people have

58:59

adopted it, they were the first

59:01

to market, they provided a solution,

59:04

but you don't know what you

59:06

don't know in terms of you

59:08

need this solution, you need this

59:10

capability, but inevitably there's also all

59:12

this operational pain and overhead that

59:14

people have come to associate with

59:16

Kafka deployments based on our experience

59:19

and what users and customers have

59:21

come to us with, they would

59:23

say, we are spending a

59:25

ton of money on spend on a

59:28

team to maintain our Kafka clusters or

59:31

managed services or something like that.

59:33

The paradigm of how they model

59:35

topics and how you partition

59:38

topics and how you scale them is

59:40

not really in line with what they fundamentally

59:42

want to do. And that's

59:45

where NATS can provide, as we refer

59:47

to it, subject based addressing, which

59:49

has a much more granular way of

59:51

addressing messages, sending messages, subscribing

59:54

to messages and things like that, which

59:56

is very different from what Kafka does

59:58

and the second that we... introduced persistence

1:00:00

with our Jetstream subsystem as we

1:00:02

refer to it a handful of

1:00:04

years ago. We literally

1:00:06

had a flood of people saying,

1:00:09

can I replace my Kafka deployments

1:00:11

with this NATS Jetstream alternative? And

1:00:13

we've been getting constant inbounds, constant

1:00:15

customers asking, hey, can you enlighten

1:00:18

us with what NATS can do?

1:00:20

And oh, by the way, here's

1:00:22

all these other dependencies like Redis

1:00:24

and other things and some of

1:00:27

our services based things that

1:00:29

we could potentially migrate and evolve over

1:00:31

time by adopting NATS as a technology,

1:00:34

as a core technology to people's systems

1:00:36

and platforms. So this has

1:00:38

been largely organic. We never from day

1:00:40

one, you know, with our persistence layer

1:00:42

Jetstream, the intention was never to say

1:00:45

we're going to go after Kafka. But

1:00:47

because of how we layered the persistence

1:00:49

on top of this really nice pub

1:00:51

sub coronats foundation, and then we promoted

1:00:53

it and we say, hey, now we

1:00:55

have the same, you know, same semantics,

1:00:57

same paradigm with these new primitives that

1:01:00

introduce persistence in terms of

1:01:02

streams and consumers. A flood gate

1:01:04

just opened and everyone was frankly

1:01:06

coming to us and wanting to

1:01:09

simplify their architecture, reduce costs, operational

1:01:11

costs, get all of these other

1:01:13

advantages that NATS has to offer that Kafka

1:01:15

does not whatsoever, or any of the other

1:01:17

similar offerings out there. And you get all

1:01:19

these other advantages that NATS has to offer.

1:01:22

So there's someone out there listening to this

1:01:24

right now. They're the Kafka cluster admin, the

1:01:26

person in charge of this cluster going down

1:01:28

or not. They manage the team, they

1:01:31

feel the pain, all the things,

1:01:33

give a prescription, what should they do? What

1:01:36

we always recommend is that you can go

1:01:38

to the NATS website, download the server, look

1:01:40

at the client and model a stream. There

1:01:42

are some guides on doing that. We also

1:01:45

have Cenadia provided a basically

1:01:47

a packet of resources to

1:01:49

inform people because we get again, so many

1:01:51

inbound requests about how do you compare NATS

1:01:53

and Kafka? And we're like, let's actually just

1:01:56

put a thing together that can inform people

1:01:58

how to compare and contrast. them.

1:02:00

So we have a link on the

1:02:02

website that we can share and you

1:02:04

can basically go get those set of

1:02:07

resources. This includes a very like lengthy

1:02:09

white paper from an outside consultant that

1:02:11

did performance benchmarks and stuff like that

1:02:14

and discuss basically the different

1:02:16

trade-offs that are made and

1:02:18

they also do a total

1:02:20

cost of ownership assessment between

1:02:22

people who are organizations running

1:02:24

Kafka versus running NATs for

1:02:26

comparable workloads. Well there you

1:02:28

go, you have a prescription. Check for

1:02:31

a link in the show

1:02:33

notes to those resources. Yes,

1:02:35

FaceTech is not cutting it.

1:02:37

NATs powered by the global

1:02:39

multi-cloud multi-geo and extensible service

1:02:41

that is fully managed by

1:02:44

Cineadia. It's the way of

1:02:46

the future. Learn more at

1:02:48

cineadia.com/change log. That's s-y-n-a-d-i-a.com/change log.

1:02:54

Well we would be remiss to let you

1:02:56

go and not talk about DMD because this

1:02:59

is a tech podcast after all. Is this

1:03:01

a tech podcast? I don't know. I mean

1:03:03

in a category in RSS feed it says tech

1:03:06

or something. I can't remember what I actually put. Ostensibly

1:03:10

it is. DMD, dependencies,

1:03:13

one of my favorite things. Managing

1:03:15

dependencies, not one of my favorite things. DMD

1:03:19

management data, a set of tooling

1:03:21

for knowing all about your dependencies,

1:03:23

like querying,

1:03:25

researching. Tell us

1:03:28

more. Yeah, so dependency management

1:03:30

data DMD for short and

1:03:32

very poorly named. I

1:03:35

now have like a t-shirt with

1:03:37

it on so I'm kind of like

1:03:39

a t-shirt with it on. I'm kind

1:03:41

of like a t-shirt with it on.

1:03:43

I like it because it's kind of

1:03:45

a reflection of my inability to name

1:03:47

things well and think of

1:03:50

catchy stuff. But yeah, so dependency

1:03:52

management data is a project I was building while

1:03:54

I was at Deliveroo and it

1:03:56

was coming up to October 1st and

1:03:58

I was a big pro. and Silam, a

1:04:01

big proponent of open source, of give

1:04:03

them back. And aside

1:04:05

from issues that maintainers have

1:04:07

during HEXO first, I

1:04:09

was still very pro. Let's get

1:04:12

some more delivery engineers contributing because

1:04:14

everyone should be trying to at least contribute to

1:04:16

that. And one of the questions I

1:04:19

was asked a number of times was,

1:04:21

well, which project should I contribute to?

1:04:23

Because it's hard to know where

1:04:26

to start with open source. Instead

1:04:29

of sending, go for a

1:04:31

good first issues list, I was like, you

1:04:34

know what? Let's look at the dependencies that

1:04:36

Deliveroo has. And let's say, of

1:04:38

all of these, these are the ones we use the

1:04:40

most. So maybe have a look at these ones. And

1:04:42

Deliveroo's a very good data-driven organization.

1:04:45

So I was like, okay, I'm gonna get

1:04:47

some data to actually show that. So

1:04:50

I ended up building

1:04:52

some very horrible hacky

1:04:54

scripts which would take

1:04:56

output from GitHub's dependable

1:04:58

graph and it would

1:05:00

then parse those and spit

1:05:02

it out into an SQLite database. Over

1:05:05

the next few months, I realized that actually, this

1:05:07

is quite a useful thing. Like being able to

1:05:09

have a database of all your

1:05:11

dependencies and being able to query them, being

1:05:14

able to add like additional insight is

1:05:16

actually really powerful. So

1:05:18

I started playing around

1:05:20

with endoflife.date, which

1:05:22

is an API for looking up common end

1:05:25

of life or deprecation dates. So

1:05:27

for instance, how long is Node.js supported?

1:05:30

When is, I don't

1:05:32

think they have any like physical hardware. There's

1:05:34

lots of like programming languages. They are

1:05:36

very open to supporting new things. And

1:05:39

so I was starting to add this data and

1:05:41

realized that this actually shouldn't be

1:05:44

a thing that just sits within Deliveroo. It's

1:05:47

something that I can absolutely see other

1:05:49

people get benefit from. I

1:05:51

was spending a lot of evenings and weekends on

1:05:54

the idea anyway. So I started

1:05:56

an open source project for this called DMD.

1:06:00

it has just passed its anniversary

1:06:02

of its first birthday. So I've

1:06:04

been spending just over a year, I think one

1:06:07

in three days of the

1:06:09

last year I have been

1:06:11

committing to the project. So I've

1:06:14

spent a lot of time working on it. And

1:06:16

as well as being able to just

1:06:18

have a list of those dependencies, being

1:06:21

able to say things like, where are

1:06:24

we using Terraform in the organization?

1:06:27

Or which go HTTP servers

1:06:29

are we using? And how

1:06:31

many the different teams using? You

1:06:34

can also do things like looking up

1:06:36

OpenSSF school card data to

1:06:38

say things like, of the dependencies, my

1:06:41

most critical application in our business

1:06:43

support relies on how many

1:06:45

of those do zero

1:06:47

code review? And

1:06:49

how many of them just yeeting things into prod? And

1:06:52

it turns out it's quite a lot more than you would

1:06:54

think. So having a lot of

1:06:56

that data is really useful. And

1:06:58

both my time at Deliveroo and

1:07:01

now at Elastic, we've been

1:07:03

spending a lot of time using

1:07:05

that data to make some really

1:07:07

interesting decisions and interesting understandings of

1:07:09

our data. Yeah,

1:07:11

you can find some very interesting things.

1:07:13

And I've said interesting about a dozen times

1:07:16

there. It's very interesting.

1:07:18

So interesting. Yeeting things

1:07:21

into prod, I like that. Well,

1:07:23

on the name, so DMD, DMD

1:07:25

is cooler than what it

1:07:27

stands for, dependency management data. If

1:07:30

somehow you could fit a recursive acronym in

1:07:32

there, then that would be really cool. If

1:07:34

you could still maintain the DMD. But free

1:07:36

piece of marketing advice, there is

1:07:38

a excellent ACDC

1:07:41

song called TNT. Because

1:07:46

I'm TNT. And

1:07:48

I know I'm nice. TNT.

1:07:52

And I will not fight. I'm

1:07:56

a power load. Who

1:08:00

wants me to be here? What

1:08:02

do you think? Repurpose. Because they have

1:08:04

this big... Because DMD. TNT.

1:08:08

You could attach yourself to that. Don't

1:08:10

change the name. Just give

1:08:12

it a little bit of excitement. A little bit

1:08:14

of explosion. A little bit of hard rock to

1:08:17

round out the soft edges. What do you think, Adam?

1:08:19

I think it's dynamite. You know this song? Yeah.

1:08:22

Thank you. Thank you. Sorry

1:08:25

about that. I had to bring it in.

1:08:28

I loved it. I loved it. Does it

1:08:30

matter what stack you're using or anything? Is

1:08:32

it agnostic? Yeah, so that's a really good

1:08:34

question. So first of all, the

1:08:36

changelog's data is all in there. Oh, no. They

1:08:38

can actually go and have a look. Oh,

1:08:41

can I? Yeah. So... OK.

1:08:43

I like that. So would

1:08:45

you like to see which

1:08:47

of your dependencies are end-of-life

1:08:49

deprecated? Have security issues? Absolutely.

1:08:51

Please, yeah. It would be very interesting. We're

1:08:53

shifting left here, don't you know? Yeah. I

1:08:55

put the brakes on hard. I don't know

1:08:57

what shift the brake card left. So

1:09:01

for instance, in this list, like you can see,

1:09:04

you've got a couple of non-standard

1:09:06

licenses, which just means that Deps.dev,

1:09:09

the API, or one of the

1:09:11

APIs that dependency management data users,

1:09:14

couldn't understand the licensing. We've

1:09:16

got a few packages that have vulnerabilities. And

1:09:19

then you're also using Go 120, which

1:09:22

has been end-of-life for seven days. How

1:09:24

are you not already on the latest version? I'm with us.

1:09:29

But yeah, so one of the good choices I

1:09:32

made around dependency management data was

1:09:35

trying to do as little work as possible. So

1:09:38

instead of me trying to understand

1:09:40

the different ecosystems and all

1:09:42

the data that they use and how the different

1:09:44

package managers work, I'm outsourcing

1:09:46

that to someone else. So the

1:09:48

original version uses DependaBot. But

1:09:51

the data that I was getting from that didn't

1:09:53

include a lot of things that we used at Todavaru.

1:09:56

And we're just starting to roll out

1:09:58

renovate bot for dependency upgrades. And

1:10:00

as part of that, I noticed that Renovate had

1:10:03

a just like a load of support for

1:10:05

a load of different things, but it

1:10:07

also spat out a big blob of

1:10:09

JSON, which contained all the packages it

1:10:11

knows of. So what I've done

1:10:13

is I've added a very small wrapper on top of

1:10:15

Renovate to basically dump out that

1:10:17

dependency tree. So for

1:10:20

instance, you can... So

1:10:23

another link I've just dropped in there, Google Doc.

1:10:26

So yeah, one of the reasons for using Renovate

1:10:28

meant that I could support dozens and

1:10:31

dozens of different things out the box

1:10:33

for very little work. So

1:10:35

for instance, because Renovate

1:10:37

understands Mix, the Alexa dependency

1:10:39

management tool, I

1:10:41

actually have all the details of all the

1:10:43

versions of tools that ChangeLog

1:10:46

is currently using. And from

1:10:48

that data, you can then look up things

1:10:50

like which version of the OAuth libraries we're

1:10:52

using. Do any of our dependencies

1:10:54

have some pretty poor repository

1:10:57

health? Things like that. So out

1:10:59

of the box, it supports a lot of things depending

1:11:01

on which tools you use to extract

1:11:03

it, but then you can also

1:11:05

plug it in with things like software,

1:11:07

bit of materials, S-bombs. So

1:11:09

if you're using a platform like Snyk, you

1:11:12

can export the data from Snyk. You can

1:11:14

still leave Snyk managing that, and

1:11:16

you can just import that data into DMD. So

1:11:19

you still get the visibility. You just

1:11:21

don't have to do the data collection part. Super

1:11:24

cool. You're using Simon Wilson's dataset

1:11:26

underneath the hood, huh? I've seen that on

1:11:28

the homepage. It is very useful. And

1:11:31

yeah, user interfaces, user experience,

1:11:33

just like design in general, is not

1:11:35

my passion, which a lot of

1:11:37

people have seen over the years. So

1:11:39

having the dataset project as the database

1:11:41

browser was amazing because it didn't

1:11:44

have to do anything. It's really useful.

1:11:46

And as you've seen, you

1:11:48

can share URLs with people, and it pre-fills

1:11:50

the query. So this is really useful internally

1:11:52

where you want to send it to someone.

1:11:54

You want to say, hey, your

1:11:56

service uses a load of insecure dependencies. You

1:11:58

can just send someone. on a link and they

1:12:01

can get that instead of sending them like

1:12:03

300 lines of SQL. And

1:12:05

it's like, go to this URL, then paste it in. Uh,

1:12:08

yeah. Yeah. Super cool, man. Have

1:12:10

you gotten much pickup? Have you gotten people using

1:12:12

it? So I've definitely got three

1:12:14

companies who are using it right now,

1:12:17

two of which I've worked out. So it's not

1:12:19

as fun. It's grassroots marketing, you

1:12:21

know, just one, one job at a

1:12:23

time. Yeah. There's definitely at least one

1:12:25

company who I have not been there

1:12:28

to set it all up. So that's

1:12:30

been cool. Um, I have

1:12:32

talked with a number of other people, uh, here and

1:12:34

there. So

1:12:36

I know there are people trying it out who

1:12:39

maybe haven't told me they're using it. Yeah.

1:12:41

Let's just get more people using that. Um,

1:12:43

understand things and interesting things. Cause

1:12:46

in my opinion, this is better than any

1:12:48

of the other offerings that other platforms have.

1:12:50

But also this is coming from a very

1:12:52

specific view and I don't have a lot

1:12:54

of VC funding, so I can't do as

1:12:57

much as they do. Right. Do you have any VC funding? I

1:12:59

do not. Okay. Just

1:13:02

to be clear, right now a lot of means none. Well,

1:13:04

now you have a grassroots marketing idea, you know, that's free

1:13:07

by the way. I'm not going to charge you for that.

1:13:09

The TNT ACDC tie-in is really

1:13:11

good. I didn't take this over the top. That's

1:13:15

brute force. Actually not grassroots.

1:13:18

We'll see. There's opportunity here, right?

1:13:20

I mean, like, I think so. Could

1:13:22

you turn this into a, a product?

1:13:25

So it's absolutely something I'm thinking of.

1:13:28

For instance, I was listening to change

1:13:31

log 577 with nausea and a lot

1:13:33

of things I

1:13:35

was like, Oh, this is an interesting

1:13:37

idea. And, Oh, and so

1:13:39

like recently I have been listening

1:13:42

to a number of podcasts around building

1:13:44

open source businesses. So there's the business

1:13:46

folk and sauce with Emily

1:13:48

O'Mear, which is really interesting around like different

1:13:51

companies who've tried to do it. And

1:13:54

it's something I'm actively thinking about.

1:13:56

I haven't yet done anything

1:13:58

on it aside from. a bit of hacking around

1:14:01

with things because like some of it

1:14:03

I think Organizations

1:14:05

probably want to be in control So

1:14:08

saying hey attach this github app for

1:14:10

this thing that some random developer you've

1:14:12

never met and just give them access

1:14:15

to your Source code for everything a

1:14:17

lot of organizations probably aren't gonna be

1:14:19

up for that So I'm

1:14:22

trying to look at making it easy for

1:14:24

self hosting Yeah for organizations to bring it

1:14:26

in and it kind of just to

1:14:28

work Yeah, so

1:14:30

there's a few options there that I'm looking

1:14:32

at around how to make that easier. Yeah

1:14:34

Yeah, well to be clear at

1:14:37

one point source graph was just some random

1:14:39

developers and at what point

1:14:41

socket dev was just some random well-known

1:14:45

developer frost book the DJ and They

1:14:48

both have github apps. That is part of

1:14:50

the install process. I know that that was

1:14:52

one thing I talked to Quinn

1:14:55

slack about on founders talk was how did you

1:14:57

get these enterprises to trust you with their data?

1:14:59

He's like that was the hard part. That was

1:15:01

like the biggest hurdle, but

1:15:03

you know once they did It

1:15:07

wasn't that challenging to prove the value So

1:15:09

I think if you can prove that

1:15:11

value and prove the trust then I think it

1:15:14

gets a little easier That's the that's the true

1:15:16

hurdle the dip really for that one Or

1:15:19

a different way around it really, you know,

1:15:21

well good luck to you on that I mean, I want

1:15:23

to hear more for sure a bit. Good luck to you on that. I mean, that's

1:15:25

a It's a fun battle,

1:15:27

you know, it's a worthwhile battle and it

1:15:29

is one of those things that like the

1:15:32

the sorts of use cases It's unlocks have

1:15:35

been like honestly game-changing for at

1:15:37

least me I delivery one

1:15:39

of our platform teams Kind

1:15:41

of pivoted what they were doing because they

1:15:43

could suddenly do so much more with this

1:15:45

data But they were able to

1:15:47

understand say which terraform modules

1:15:49

the teams using and at what versions

1:15:52

they were able to easily see but

1:15:54

they were able to run a Fairly

1:15:56

straightforward SQL query because not

1:15:58

everyone's gonna find SQL straightforward, that

1:16:01

they were able to write that query with the data

1:16:03

set UI, and just see

1:16:05

across the board which teams are doing

1:16:07

different things. Yeah. And then I'd also

1:16:10

ingested things like ownership information. So it

1:16:12

would actually say like, Oh, and it's this team that

1:16:15

owns that. And then teams could break

1:16:17

it down by different things. I've

1:16:20

over like the last month or so I've written

1:16:22

a number of case studies on the website around

1:16:24

like different use cases that has

1:16:26

been used for things like we're

1:16:28

in the middle of an incident delivery.

1:16:30

There wasn't like, wasn't any problems, but

1:16:33

it was a proactive

1:16:35

incident raised. And

1:16:37

we've noticed that there was one

1:16:39

of our duck sidecars for Kafka

1:16:41

consumption was susceptible

1:16:44

to a race condition. And

1:16:47

one option would be to try and

1:16:49

just like grep through lots of different

1:16:51

code bases and find what was affected.

1:16:53

Or it was like a seven line

1:16:56

SQL statement that we could just

1:16:58

do because we had all the data there. And

1:17:00

things like that. Until you have that data, you

1:17:02

probably can't see some of that benefit. But once

1:17:04

you have it, and you can start interrogating those

1:17:07

sorts of things. And as you say,

1:17:09

like the source graph, it's being able to

1:17:11

actually think up those sorts

1:17:13

of questions when you didn't have anything there before

1:17:16

is difficult. But then you get access to it and you're like,

1:17:18

Oh, actually, yeah, I can now do a load

1:17:21

of things that would never available. That's

1:17:23

why I think those examples you have and

1:17:25

just like the sample questions are

1:17:27

a useful thing. Because

1:17:29

you help the person dream,

1:17:31

you know, realizing, because otherwise, like,

1:17:34

I'm kind of like, Yeah, I got data

1:17:36

on lots of stuff, you know, it's like,

1:17:39

I kind of know my dependencies. And there's tools

1:17:41

built into hex, for instance,

1:17:44

that will say what's outdated, you know, it's like,

1:17:46

that's probably good enough. That's like, yeah, but can

1:17:48

you ask this question? And you answer this, can

1:17:50

you know this about your start

1:17:52

to think, Oh, okay, you open you

1:17:54

broaden the imagination of

1:17:56

the potential user. And so I

1:17:59

think the more of that you can do as well

1:18:01

as the TNT tie-in, which is gonna

1:18:03

be just groundbreaking. You're

1:18:07

already gonna. Give it up, man. It's

1:18:09

becoming not Dyna. I

1:18:12

don't know, that might have been my best. I'm guessing

1:18:14

you got math. I'm just razzing you. I

1:18:16

think there's like a, it's

1:18:18

like a version of a subset of

1:18:21

what Sourcegraph offers, like is answering questions

1:18:23

about your code base. Yeah. Right,

1:18:25

and you've gotta have certain, you know, queryable knowledge, which

1:18:28

isn't always on everybody's purview.

1:18:31

And there's a version of this, it's like in the

1:18:33

camp of Socket, which is kind of why I mentioned

1:18:36

both of them, because they both required to have the

1:18:39

user's trust of their data and their code

1:18:41

base, which is obviously part

1:18:43

of the battle. But I think you're a version,

1:18:46

you're like a love child in a way, but like a smaller love

1:18:48

child. And I don't even know the full tool, but it's a version

1:18:50

of maybe a hate child.

1:18:52

Who knows, Jared? I don't know, man. I'm

1:18:54

going with love. Okay. It's a version of

1:18:56

what both of those tools do, but

1:18:59

not to their full circumference, because Sourcegraph has obviously

1:19:01

done some really cool stuff with Insights and their dashboard

1:19:03

they do with that, which I think is pretty cool

1:19:06

too, which is kind of what

1:19:08

you've done here in a way, but this is more of

1:19:10

a hacker's version of it, which

1:19:12

is command line and whatnot. But I think

1:19:14

there's something here. I would encourage you to pursue

1:19:16

what a good next step might be to productize

1:19:19

this. Maybe there's people who are like, you know what, Sourcegraph is

1:19:22

just way too big. I need something that's simpler. And

1:19:24

maybe there's people who's like, you know what, I don't need the security aspects

1:19:26

of Socket, or like some of the things it does, because

1:19:30

Socket is all about dependencies, but from a

1:19:32

security lens. And even

1:19:34

from a, is this

1:19:36

repository active? And answering certain questions

1:19:39

about the repository, the dependency. Has

1:19:42

the committers or core

1:19:44

team members changed recently? Things

1:19:47

like that. That's kind of sort of what

1:19:49

Socket does in deeper levels, and more on

1:19:51

learn and awareness. But that installs as

1:19:53

a GitHub app. That's like one of the most popular ways.

1:19:55

I know that because they're a sponsor, and that's sponsoring this

1:19:57

one here, but they've sponsored this before. That's

1:20:00

how like one of the main ways people interface

1:20:02

with socket is via the get a bat. Yeah,

1:20:05

I guess I'm also

1:20:07

trying to avoid Going

1:20:09

after what I don't want to try and

1:20:11

compete with people like mend and sneak and

1:20:14

the big Companies doing

1:20:16

that sort of thing. Why not because I think

1:20:18

for some of it It's I

1:20:20

believe they're still gonna get what business

1:20:22

it's that's always true in competition But

1:20:26

I guess so I don't see it as like Able

1:20:29

to compete for some of the things and I don't

1:20:31

want it to try and compete some of the things

1:20:34

So on like the same a security

1:20:36

aspect for sure. I think that's like

1:20:39

a fairly saturated market and There

1:20:41

are lots of people who have a massive

1:20:43

share, but there aren't many people doing

1:20:45

things like give me a list of

1:20:49

Dependencies that haven't had code review

1:20:51

recently in the last 90 days How

1:20:54

many of those tendencies have used stuff

1:20:56

into prod without any code review? There's

1:20:59

things like that. So I can add some

1:21:01

interesting views on that data while also

1:21:05

Given the ability to add your own

1:21:07

stuff into it while also being able

1:21:09

to play nicely with things like

1:21:11

s-bones produced by other tools You

1:21:13

can use existing platforms. Yeah.

1:21:15

Yeah, keep doing it man. Don't

1:21:18

stop Even if you have

1:21:20

to overlap a little bit I think there's

1:21:22

certain things that obviously like sneak is just

1:21:24

a Goliath in the industry But at the

1:21:26

same time and I'm not trying to poo

1:21:28

talk by any means I think what I've

1:21:30

heard negatively about sneak is not they're bad

1:21:32

but that they report on CVS,

1:21:35

it's like known vulnerabilities. It's

1:21:38

not predictive. It's reactive

1:21:41

So I think if you can get you're kind

1:21:43

of like teetering in the predictive realm because you're

1:21:45

able to give insights that not They're

1:21:47

not easily foreseen otherwise

1:21:50

like has there been PRs in

1:21:52

the last 90 days on X number of my dependencies

1:21:55

They may not say that you have eight

1:21:57

bad dependencies and may just say these may

1:21:59

be one that you should question or

1:22:01

look into personally or use other tools

1:22:03

that give you more insights beyond this

1:22:05

because it's like it's a smell. You're

1:22:07

identifying code smell or dependency smell of

1:22:10

sorts. There's definitely something there. Keep

1:22:12

going. I am definitely planning

1:22:14

on. I'm not putting it

1:22:16

down anytime soon. It's been, yeah,

1:22:19

massive passion project. I'm

1:22:21

hoping to, yeah, go a lot further

1:22:24

with it. Yeah I think maybe Jared

1:22:26

might be onto something though with this TNT stuff, you know. Because

1:22:29

you can like bring in more

1:22:31

iconography and stuff like that around,

1:22:34

you know, like if you have bad dependencies,

1:22:36

that's a blow up moment, right? That's a

1:22:38

dynamite situation, right? It's a bad

1:22:40

thing for your code base to have sad

1:22:43

dependencies. So maybe

1:22:45

you could pivot the TNT versus

1:22:47

DMD. I don't know. I'll

1:22:50

have a look at the licensing fees for

1:22:53

using TNT as a song. Well,

1:22:55

there's always BMC and renditions, you know that right?

1:22:57

Great artist steal, Jamie. Great artist steal. That's right.

1:23:00

You can always do a rendition of the song.

1:23:02

It could be like the song, not

1:23:04

the actual. It's an homage, you know.

1:23:07

It's fair use. It's an homage. And

1:23:10

ask for forgiveness, not permission. I mean,

1:23:12

that's the indie web way, isn't it? I just made that

1:23:15

up. This

1:23:17

message is not vouch for by the

1:23:19

indie web. Yeah. Well,

1:23:21

I'm glad we're friends now versus friendlies. This

1:23:23

is so much cooler than the friendly aspect.

1:23:25

Yeah. It's been cool because

1:23:27

I've been listening to you both for years.

1:23:30

Although one thing that is interesting is listening

1:23:32

to you at one time speed. So

1:23:34

I usually listen on 1.7 times. So

1:23:38

I have actually listened to a couple of

1:23:40

podcasts at one time to prepare. Sounds weird.

1:23:42

We wouldn't disappoint you, you know, how slow

1:23:44

we are in real life. Oh,

1:23:47

man. Wow. There's so many

1:23:49

people who listen to podcasts that beyond 1X. I

1:23:52

have honestly tried several times

1:23:54

to just taste the sauce and see if

1:23:56

I like it, which I do not. Because…

1:24:00

You're talking about the speed of the

1:24:02

sauce? Yeah. I'm like, what am I…

1:24:04

am I missing something? Is something wrong?

1:24:06

And maybe I was telling Nick this

1:24:08

actually because we were hanging out when

1:24:10

he was here for

1:24:12

that conference recently. Nick Nissi,

1:24:14

by the way. And I

1:24:16

was like, maybe your brain

1:24:19

operates at a different frequency, like a

1:24:21

higher frequency than mine does. And so

1:24:23

it allows you to listen

1:24:25

at a higher speed because

1:24:27

you comprehend slightly faster than I do.

1:24:30

Not that we comprehend differently, but that the

1:24:32

frequency for which we comprehend is

1:24:34

different because I'm an

1:24:37

artist myself and I like the pure nature of

1:24:39

the art. So I can't

1:24:41

change the way – like

1:24:43

I'm not watching movies at 1.5, right? Like

1:24:45

I'm just not going to do it. It just – it

1:24:48

ruins the whole thing. I just can't do

1:24:50

that with anything else, whether it's a book

1:24:52

or a podcast or anything. I'm going to

1:24:54

listen to it at the director's intended speed.

1:24:57

And as close as I can get to

1:24:59

what the director intended, cinematically even if it's

1:25:01

a film, you know, like if

1:25:03

someone says you've got to watch Oppenheimer in the theater for

1:25:05

the first time, then you can watch it anywhere else you

1:25:07

want to afterwards. I'm going to do

1:25:09

my best to get to an IMAX theater with the rockin'

1:25:12

sound system or I'm just not going to

1:25:14

do it at all. I'm a teetotaler in that respect. So

1:25:16

that's my mode. So maybe that's –

1:25:19

you just listen and comprehend at a

1:25:22

higher frequency than I do. I have

1:25:24

both experiences because I listen

1:25:26

to our stuff sped

1:25:29

up 1.75 to 2X just

1:25:31

because I'm listening to clip. I'm not listening to

1:25:34

enjoy the conversation necessarily. And

1:25:37

what's funny about that is that I clip

1:25:39

out of Overcast and so

1:25:41

I'm listening at 1.75X, but when

1:25:43

I hit the clip button, it opens

1:25:46

up a brand new little clip

1:25:48

widget thing which does not have

1:25:50

the speed applied to it. And

1:25:53

so I actually get the fast and the

1:25:55

slow version multiple times throughout a single episode,

1:25:57

and that's when we sound really dumb.

1:26:00

I'm like, this is good. Then I hit the button. It's like,

1:26:02

yes, I know what I'm talking about. I'm

1:26:05

like, oh man, I'm really

1:26:07

slow. Ovenheimer. That's

1:26:09

a very strange experience. I

1:26:12

would not, I would not advise it. Yeah.

1:26:16

Back to back speed is probably in, wow, that's gonna be jarring.

1:26:20

It is jarring. So Jamie, sorry to disappoint

1:26:22

you with our regular speeds of

1:26:24

our brains, you know? That's how we operate. Hopefully

1:26:26

we didn't lose your attention. Too many times throughout

1:26:29

this conversation. We do appreciate you hanging out with

1:26:31

us. Yeah. And the

1:26:33

work that you're doing, your radical transparency

1:26:35

with your salary, definitely interesting

1:26:38

and helpful for many people, very cool. Your

1:26:41

commitment to, you know, syndicating and, and, you know, your website,

1:26:44

your commitment to

1:26:47

your website that you have is laudable. And this is a

1:26:49

cool project. DMD, check it out. Sounds

1:26:52

like TNT. So you know it's cool. And

1:26:56

you know, it's cool. And what else?

1:26:59

Anything else before we say goodbye to our friends?

1:27:01

No, yeah. Thanks very much for having me. It's been really fun. It's

1:27:05

been nice to speak. Shout out to the multiple

1:27:07

people who have requested to have Jamie on

1:27:09

the show throughout the years. Most recently it

1:27:11

was Dan Moore. That's right. Dan Moore. He

1:27:14

was a recent guest. And didn't you, you pointed

1:27:16

us to Dan, didn't you? Yeah, I did. Okay, did you

1:27:18

guys cut a deal? Did you cut a deal? No,

1:27:20

he messaged me after. Yeah, he

1:27:23

messaged me after, Dan, like. I'll request you. You

1:27:25

request me. He's not the first one though. Somebody

1:27:27

else used the request form and

1:27:29

submitted you a little

1:27:31

while back. And so it was percolating. The timing was

1:27:33

percolating. I had multiple requests. Plus

1:27:35

obviously known your work for many years. So I

1:27:37

thought, yeah, it's time. It's time to get him

1:27:39

on the show. I think the issue with that

1:27:41

one request though was they were recommending the TNT

1:27:43

project he was working

1:27:46

on. And they were wrecked and we

1:27:48

couldn't find it. Right. It was actually

1:27:50

DMD. Exactly. So we couldn't

1:27:52

find you. You need to redirect on that sucker. CNT.dev.

1:27:57

Check it out. Oh, that'd be cool. Can

1:27:59

you get that? We're over

1:28:01

here renaming his project. He's

1:28:04

like, I don't even like... He's like, I got a t-shirt

1:28:06

already, guys. I'm being polite. I'm not renaming it. I got

1:28:08

a t-shirt. I'm

1:28:11

checking it for you real quick. Let's close this loop, at least, and

1:28:13

then we'll let everybody go. Check domain.

1:28:15

TNT.dev is already taken. How about a different

1:28:17

one? Crying shame. That was the only challenge

1:28:19

we had. That was it. That was it.

1:28:22

Now we can't do it. All right. Goodbye,

1:28:24

friends. Bye, friends. Bye, friends.

1:28:27

Bye, friends. Bye, friends.

1:28:29

It just so happens that

1:28:31

Jamie is a changelog++ member.

1:28:38

So he was super forward to

1:28:40

stick around for a bonus 15

1:28:42

minutes and chat with us about

1:28:45

them, Zed, his reluctance to use

1:28:47

A.I. code tools, and more. If

1:28:49

you're not a plus plus subscriber, now

1:28:51

is a great time to directly support

1:28:54

our work with your hard-earned cash. Or

1:28:56

even better, your employer-sponsored education

1:28:59

budget. As a thanks, we

1:29:01

make the ads disappear, send you some

1:29:03

free changelog stickers, hook you up

1:29:05

with bonus content like this, and

1:29:07

more. It's better. But

1:29:09

don't take our word for it. Here's Jamie's. It

1:29:12

is better. It's been better for years. Join

1:29:14

Jamie and hundreds of your fellow listeners who

1:29:16

have already got in on the better at

1:29:20

changelog.com/plus plus. Make

1:29:22

your dreams come true. Thanks

1:29:27

again to our friends at fly2io

1:29:29

and to Sentry. Use code changelog

1:29:31

when you sign up to save 100

1:29:33

bucks on their team plan. And of

1:29:35

course, to our mysterious friend, Breakmaster Cylinder.

1:29:38

That's all for now, but let's talk again

1:29:40

real soon.